Douglas Murray: Racism, Marxism, and the War on the West | Lex Fridman Podcast #296

1. 0:00 – 1:47

   Introduction

   1. DMDouglas Murray0:00

      I think that some people are deliberately trying to completely clear the cultural landscape of our past in order to say there's nothing good, nothing you can hold onto, no one you should revere. You've got no heroes. The whole thing comes down. Who's left standing? Oh, we've also got this idea from the 20th century still about Marxism. And, and no, no. You, you, you, you w- I will not have the entire landscape deracinated and then the worst ideas tried again.

   2. LFLex Fridman0:31

      The following is a conversation with Douglas Murray, author of The Madness of Crowds: Gender, Race and Identity, and his most recent book, The War on the West: How to Prevail in the Age of Unreason. He's a brilliant, fearless, and often controversial thinker who points out and pushes back against what he sees as the madness of our modern world. I should note that the use of the word Marxism and the West in this conversation refers primarily to cultural Marxism and the cultural values of Western civilization respectively. This is in contrast to my previous conversation with Richard Wolff, where we focused on Marxism as primarily a critique of capitalism, and thus looking at it through the lens of economics and not culture. Nevertheless, these two episodes stand opposite of each other with very different perspectives on how we build a flourishing civilization together. I leave it to you, the listener, to think and to decide which is the better way. This is the Lex Fridman Podcast. To support it, please check out our sponsors in the description. And now, dear friends, here's Douglas Murray.

2. 1:47 – 10:28

   Western civilization

   1. LFLex Fridman1:48

      You recently wrote the book titled The War on the West, which in part says that the values, ideas, and history of Western civilization are under attack. So, let's start with the basics. Historically and today, what are the ideas that represent Western civilization, the good, the bad, the ugly?

   2. DMDouglas Murray2:07

      I actually don't get stuck on, um, definitions, precisely 'cause as you know, once you get stuck on definitions there's a possibility you'll never get off them.

   3. LFLex Fridman2:13

      Yes. (laughs)

   4. DMDouglas Murray2:16

      Um, I'd say a few things. Firstly, uh, obviously the Western tradition is a specific tradition, a specific tradition of ideas, culture, well known to be perhaps easily defined by the combination of Athens and Jerusalem, the, the world of the Bible, and the world of ancient Greece and, and indeed Rome. Uh, effectively creates West, uh, creates European civilization, which itself spawns the rest of the Western civilizations: America, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, and others. Uh, but these are the main countries that we still refer to as, as the West. Um, so there's a specific tradition and all of the things that come from it. Uh, my shorthand cheat on this answer is to say, um, you know when you're not in it.

   5. LFLex Fridman3:03

      (laughs)

   6. DMDouglas Murray3:05

      So if you've ever been to Beijing, Shanghai, it's like you know you're not in the West. You're somewhere else, but you know you're not in the West. When you're in Tokyo, you're somewhere extraordinary, but you know you're not in the West. Uh, obviously there are, um, let's say borderline questions, like is Russia in the West? Um, which I sort of leave open as a, as a question. Um, uh, possibly.

   7. LFLex Fridman3:32

      Well, if you were placed into Moscow blindfolded and you woke up and you couldn't hear the language or maybe you didn't know what the language sounded like, would you-

   8. DMDouglas Murray3:40

      Hmm.

   9. LFLex Fridman3:40

      ... would you guess you were in the West?

   10. DMDouglas Murray3:42

       Uh-

   11. LFLex Fridman3:42

       Or not?

   12. DMDouglas Murray3:43

       I think I was somewhere near it. (laughs)

   13. LFLex Fridman3:45

       (laughs)

   14. DMDouglas Murray3:45

       Getting closer. I mean, you know, is, is, is... Or Tolstoy asks the question, doesn't he, whether it's European. And I think the answer to that is not really, although massively influenced by Europe, but, um, and times wanting to reach towards it, at times wanting to stay away. But, um, but a, a part of the West, possibly. Yes. Um, but anyway, I, it's, it's a very specific tradition. It's, it's, it's one of a number of major traditions in the world. And, um, because it's hard to define doesn't mean it doesn't exist, you know?

   15. LFLex Fridman4:19

       Are there certain characteristics and qualities about the values and the ideas that define it? Is, is, uh, the type of rule, the type of governmental structure, uh-

   16. DMDouglas Murray4:28

       Yes. I mean, the rule of law, uh, property owning democracies, um, and much more. I mean, these are of course things that were, ended up being developed in America and, uh, then given back to much of the rest of the West. Um, I say there are other, um, perhaps more controversial attributes I would, I would give to the West. One is a ravenous interest in the rest of the world, which is not shared, of course, by every other culture. Um, uh, the late, uh, philosopher George Steiner, who said he could never get out of his head the haunting fact that the boats only seemed to go out from Europe. You know, they, they didn't... The explorers, the, the, the, the, the scholars, the, the linguists, the, the people who wanted to discover other civilizations and indeed even resurrect ancient civilizations and lost civilizations, these were scholars that were always coming from the West to discover this elsewhere. By contrast, you know, there were never boats coming from Egypt to help the Anglo-Saxons discover the origins of their language and, and so on. So I think there is a sort of ravenous interest in the rest of the world, which can be said to be a Western attribute, although it of course also has a bunch of immediately preface it, some downsides and many criticisms that could be made to some of the consequences of that interest. Um, because of course it's not entirely l- lacking in self-interest.

   17. LFLex Fridman5:50

       So it's not just the scholars, it's also...

   18. DMDouglas Murray5:53

       The armies.

   19. LFLex Fridman5:54

       The armies. And they're looking to gain access and control over resources elsewhere.

   20. DMDouglas Murray5:59

       To markets.

   21. LFLex Fridman6:00

       And hence the imperial imperative-

   22. DMDouglas Murray6:03

       Exactly.

   23. LFLex Fridman6:04

       ... to conquer-

   24. DMDouglas Murray6:05

       Yeah.

   25. LFLex Fridman6:05

       ... to expand.

   26. DMDouglas Murray6:06

       Although that itself, of course, is a universal thing. I mean, no, uh, w-... no, um, civilization, I think, that we know of doesn't try to gain ground from its neighbors where it can. The Western ability to go further faster, um, certainly gave an advantage in that regard.

   27. LFLex Fridman6:23

       Do some civilizations get a bit more excited by that kind of idea than others?

   28. DMDouglas Murray6:28

       Possible. It's possible.

   29. LFLex Fridman6:30

       'Cause it, you could say it's the Western civilization, because of the tech- technological innovation was more, um, efficient-

   30. DMDouglas Murray6:38

       Yes.
3. 10:28 – 14:04

   Slavery

   1. DMDouglas Murray10:28

   2. LFLex Fridman10:28

      If we just step back and look at our, the human species, what does slavery teach you about human nature? The fact that slavery, um, has appeared as a function of society throughout human history.

   3. DMDouglas Murray10:44

      There are two possibilities. Um, one is, it's what people think they can do when God's not watching. Another is, it's what they can do if they think that God allows it.

   4. LFLex Fridman11:00

      Really, really well put. And, um, the fact that they want to do this kind of subjugation-

   5. DMDouglas Murray11:08

      Mm-hmm.

   6. LFLex Fridman11:08

      ... what does that mean?

   7. DMDouglas Murray11:10

      Well, I mean, it's, it's, it's pretty straightforward in a way. Um, there are people who get to work for free.

   8. LFLex Fridman11:17

      It's economic in nature in some, in some sense.

   9. DMDouglas Murray11:19

      Yes. But in order to do it, I mean, almost always there are the diff- there are some examples in the ancient world where this wasn't the case, but almost always it had to be a subjugated people or people regarded as different. One of the things actually I've tried to sort of inject into the discussion through this book among other things is, is a recognition that there were, there were very major questions still going on in the 18th and early 19th century, the one resolved, which were one of the reasons why slavery was not as morally repugnant to people then as it was to us now, as it is to us now. And that's the question of polygenesis and monogenesis. Um, at the time of Thomas Jefferson, the founding fathers were, were, were thinking and working. They didn't know because nobody knew whether the human races were related or not. Um-The, there was, there were arguments that, uh, the monogenesis argument, that, that we were all indeed from the same racial stock. Apologenesis argument was that we weren't, you know, Black Africans, Ethiopians, they're often referred to at the time, um, because they provided some of the first slaves, um, were different from white Europeans. Simply not related in any way and that makes it easier, of course. That makes it easier to enslave people if you think they're not your brother. Uh, am I my brother's keeper? No, he's not your brother. Uh, and the, there's, it's, it's, it's a very... It was a very troubling argument in the, in the 18th to 19th century also because there was a biblical question. It threw up, it threw up a theological question which was, I mean, (laughs) people were literally debating this at the time, um, was there also a Black Adam and Eve? Was there as it were an Indian Adam and Eve, a Native American Adam and Eve? I, I mean, this was a serious theological debate because they didn't know the answer and it, I mean, people say that Darwin, um, solved this, and it wasn't just Darwin, of course. But by the late 19th century, the argument that we were not all related as human beings had suffered so many blows that you had to really be very, very ignorant, deliberately, willfully ignorant to, to ignore it by then.

   10. LFLex Fridman13:41

       So it no longer was, after Darwin, a theological question, it became a moral question.

   11. DMDouglas Murray13:46

       It was already a moral question but it clarified it. Darwin clarifies it, definitely, and then you're in this, as I say, you're in this situation of you're not subjugating some other people, you're subjugating your own kin and, and that becomes morally unsustainable.

   12. LFLex Fridman14:03

       So

4. 14:04 – 19:09

   Reparations

   1. LFLex Fridman14:05

      given that slavery in America is part, is part of its history, how do we incorporate into the calculus of, um, policy today, social discourse, what we learn in school? We can look at slavery in America, we can look at maybe more recent things like, uh, in Europe, the, other atrocities, the Holocaust. How do we incorporate that in terms of how we create policy, how we treat each other, all those kinds of things? Um, what is the calculus of integrating the atrocities, the injustices of the past into the way we are today?

   2. DMDouglas Murray14:51

      That's a very complex question because it's a, it's a moral question at this point and a moral question long after the fact. Um, I say at one point in The War on the West that the argument, for instance, on reparations now that goes on and, and is not a, not a fringe argument anymore. Some people say, "Oh, you're pulling up this fringe argument." It really isn't. I mean, every contender for the Democratic nomination for the, uh, the presidency in 2020 was willing to talk about the possibility of reparation. Some very eager that this country, America goes through that entirely self-destructive exercise. Um, I say that there's a, there's a lot of problems with this but if I can refine it down to one thing, I'd say this, um, it's no longer about a wealth transfer from one group of people who did something wrong to another group of people who were wronged. It would've been, it would've been that, could've been that 200 years ago. Today, it's not even the descendants of people who did something wrong giving money to people who were the descendants of people who were wronged. It's a wealth transfer from people who look like people who did a wrong thing in the past to another group of people who resemble people who were wronged. That's impossible to do and I'm completely clear about this. You, you, there is no way in which you could organize such a, a wealth transfer, uh, on moral or practical reasons. America was filled with people who are, um, have the same skin color as us, for instance, who have no connection to the slave trade and should not be made to pay money to people who have some connection. And then the country is also filled with ethnic minorities who have come after slavery who would not be, um, due for any reimbursement as it were. The problem, the problem with this is though is that there are, I'm perfectly open to the possibility that there are, um, residual inequities that exist in American life and that s- and that the consequences of slavery could be one of the factors that resulted from this. The thing is I don't think it's, it's a, um, I don't think it's a single issue answer. I think it's a multidimensional issue, something like Black underachievement in America is obviously a multidimensional issue. Um, much of the left and others wish to say it's not, it's only about racism and they can't answer why Asians who've arrived more recently don't, for instance, get held down by white supremacy but actually I say white supremacy in quotes obviously.

   3. LFLex Fridman17:34

      Yeah.

   4. DMDouglas Murray17:34

      Uh, but don't get held d- back by it, but actually flourish to the extent that Asian Americans, uh, have a higher h- household earnings and higher h- household mean, um, uh, uh, equity than home equity and so on than, than white Americans. Uh, so I don't think that on the merits, the evidence is there that, you know, racism is the explanation for Black, ongoing Black underachievement in some segments of the Black community in America. Um, it's obviously a part of it. Could you say that even those things like fatherlessness and, um, uh, similar family breakdown issues are a long-term consequence of it?It, possibly, but it's, it's being awfully generous to people's ability to make bad decisions. For instance, how many generations after the Holocaust would you allow people to claim that everything that went wrong in the Jewish community was as a result of the Holocaust? I mean, is there m- is there some kind of term limit on this? I would've thought so, and I think most people probably think that's over.

   5. LFLex Fridman18:43

      I think the details matter there. The f- and ... Um, but it's very diff-

   6. DMDouglas Murray18:51

      We're in deep waters here.

   7. LFLex Fridman18:52

      Oh, I enjoy swimming out in the ocean, so ...

   8. DMDouglas Murray18:55

      (laughs)

   9. LFLex Fridman18:55

      Although I'm terrified of what's lurking underneath in the darkness.

   10. DMDouglas Murray19:00

       You're right.

   11. LFLex Fridman19:00

       (laughs)

   12. DMDouglas Murray19:01

       You're right to be.

   13. LFLex Fridman19:03

       (laughs) Um, okay. It's really complicated calculus w- with the Holocaust and with slavery.

5. 19:09 – 26:22

   Institutional racism

   1. LFLex Fridman19:10

      So the argument in America is that there, there's deep institutional racism against African Americans that's rooted in slavery.

   2. DMDouglas Murray19:22

      Mm-hmm.

   3. LFLex Fridman19:23

      And so however that calculus turns out, that calculation, it still persists, in the culture, in the institutions, in the allocation of resources, in the way that we communicate in the, in the s- in subtle ways, in major ways, all that kind of stuff. Um, how is it possible to win or lose that argument of how much institutional racism there is that's rooted in, in slavery? Is it a winnable...

   4. DMDouglas Murray19:51

      It's, it's, it's an unquantifiable argument. Um, and I'd, I'd, I'd... I like to apply some shortcuts to some of this, the, the, the following. After instance, all, um... Let's take the, the, the one that's most often cited. If a, if a white person is walking down a street in America and they see a group of young Black men coming towards them and it's late at night and they cross the road, is it because of slavery? Is it because of institutional racism? No. It's because they've made a calculus based not entirely on, um, unfounded beliefs that given crime rates, it's possible that this group of people might be a group of people they don't want to meet late at night. That's, uh, an ugly fact, but as crime statistics in American cities after American cities bear out, um, it's not an entirely unreasonable one. It's not reasonable every time, obviously. Obviously. But is it attributable to slavery? Uh, that's a stretch. Um, if you're in a city like Chicago where the homicide rates shot up in the last two years, albeit again as, as always has to be remembered, mainly Black on Black, uh, gun violence and knife violence. Nevertheless, if you're in a city like Chicago and you make that calculus I've just suggested, the, the, the, the cliched one, the street late at night, there are other factors other than a memory of slavery that kick in. Um, and I'm afraid it's, uh, it's something which people don't want to particularly acknowledge in America for obvious reasons, because it's the ugliest damn debate in the world. But I was actually just writing in the wa- in my column in New York Post today about a, a very interesting ca- case that's sort of similar, which is the ug- the, um, question of obesity in the US. As you know, um, America's the most overweight country in the world. America has, I think, um, 40% of the population is obese in medical ways, and the nearest next country is a long way down, that's New Zealand at 30% of the population. So America's a long way ahead. Why during the coronavirus era, when we know that obesity is the one clearest factor that's likely to lead to your hospitalization if you also get the virus, why did almost no public health information in America focus on obesity? 80% of the people who ended up hospitalized in America fr- with coronavirus were obese. W- we locked the schools when there was no evidence that the coronavirus was deadly for children. We all wore cloth masks when there was, uh, very little evidence that this was much use in stopping the spread of the virus. We had massive evidence about obesity being a problem, and we never addressed it. Why? Is it just because we worried about fat people? No, it's actually because, about fat shaming as it were, no, it's also because to a great extent it's a racial issue in America as well, and actually I quoted this, uh, new publication from the Univer- University of Chicago as it happens, which makes that claim explicit. It says the reasons why people are, um, have views that are negative about obesity is because of racism and slavery. This is what everything is drawn back to in America. Anything you want to stop, you say it's because of racism, it's because of slavery. How about it's actually because you mind the hospitals getting clogged up, you mind people dying, you mind ethnic minorities disproportionately dying, and you'd like to say something about it. Once again, as in everything in America, it's cut off by some poorly educated academic saying it's about slavery. So we're really not... I mean, th- this requires a kind of form of brain surgery to perform it on a society, probably one that's not possible without killing the patient, and it's being done by people who are wearing, like, mittens.

   5. LFLex Fridman24:05

      So I'm sure that there's, uh, a few folks listening to this that are rolling their eyes and saying, "Here we go again. Two white guys talking about the lack of, uh, institutional racism in America."First of all, what's your... (laughs) What would you like to tell them? So, uh, our African American friends who are looking at this, and I've gotten a chance to talk to a bunch of them on Clubhouse recently. Clubhouse is the social app.

   6. DMDouglas Murray24:37

      Yeah, yeah, I know.

   7. LFLex Fridman24:37

      And I really enjoy it.

   8. DMDouglas Murray24:38

      It's, it's an absolute zoo of an app, as far as I can see, it's

   9. NANarrator24:41

      You like it? Hmm.

   10. LFLex Fridman24:41

       I personally love it because you get to talk to... As somebody who's an introvert and doesn't socialize much, I enjoy talking to people from all walks of life. So it got, it gave me a chance to, first of all, practice Russian and Ukrainian.

   11. DMDouglas Murray24:56

       Hmm.

   12. LFLex Fridman24:56

       So I get the chance to do that. Then you get a chance to talk about Israel and Palestine with people who are, uh, from that part of the world.

   13. DMDouglas Murray25:04

       Mm-hmm.

   14. LFLex Fridman25:05

       And you get to hear raw emotion of people from the ground where they start screaming, they start crying, they start being calm and collected and thoughtful and the, uh... This is as if you walked into a bar with custom-picked regular folks, in quotes, regular folks, just people that have, quote unquote, lived experiences, real pain, real hope, real emotions, biases and you get to listen to them go at it with no... Uh, because it's a audio app, you're not allowed to start getting into a physical fistfight.

   15. DMDouglas Murray25:43

       Mm-hmm.

   16. LFLex Fridman25:43

       So even though it really sounds like people want to-

   17. DMDouglas Murray25:46

       Sounds like it's, sounds like it's happening, yeah. (laughs)

   18. LFLex Fridman25:47

       (laughs) Yeah. And so you get to really listen to that feeling and, for example, it allows a white guy like me from another part of the world, coming from, uh, the former Soviet Union, to go into a room with a few hundred, uh, African Americans screaming about-

   19. DMDouglas Murray26:05

       Mm-hmm.

   20. LFLex Fridman26:05

       ... Joe Rogan using the N-word.

   21. DMDouglas Murray26:07

       Oh, yeah.

   22. LFLex Fridman26:07

       And I get to really listen. There's very different perspectives on that in the African American community.

   23. DMDouglas Murray26:13

       Mm-hmm.

   24. LFLex Fridman26:13

       And it's fascinating to listen.

   25. DMDouglas Murray26:14

       Sure.

   26. LFLex Fridman26:14

       So I don't get a, access to that by sort of excellent books and articles written and so on.

   27. DMDouglas Murray26:20

       Sure.

   28. LFLex Fridman26:20

       You get that real raw emotion.

6. 26:22 – 35:47

   Lived experience

   1. LFLex Fridman26:22

      And I'm just saying, there's a few of those folks listening to this-

   2. DMDouglas Murray26:25

      Mm-hmm.

   3. LFLex Fridman26:25

      ... with that real raw emotion.

   4. DMDouglas Murray26:27

      Sure.

   5. LFLex Fridman26:27

      And they, one argument they say is, "You, Douglas Murray, and you, Lex Fridman, don't have the right to talk about race and racism in America. It is our struggle. You are from a privileged class of people that don't, don't know what it's like to be a Black man or woman in America walking down the street." Can you steel man that case? (laughs)

   6. DMDouglas Murray26:54

      First of all, fuck that.

   7. LFLex Fridman26:56

      (laughs) Okay. That's not, that's... I think we need to define steel, (laughs) steel manning.

   8. DMDouglas Murray27:01

      Okay.

   9. LFLex Fridman27:01

      (laughing) But can you at least try?

   10. DMDouglas Murray27:02

       I know what steel manning is.

   11. LFLex Fridman27:04

       Okay. (laughs)

   12. DMDouglas Murray27:05

       Um, I really resent that form of argumentation.

   13. LFLex Fridman27:07

       Sure.

   14. DMDouglas Murray27:07

       I really resent it. I have the right to talk about whatever the hell I want and no one's gonna stop me or try to intimidate me-

   15. LFLex Fridman27:14

       Yeah.

   16. DMDouglas Murray27:14

       ... or tell me that I can't simply because of my skin color. And I think that if I said to somebody else the other way around, it would be equally reprehensible. If I said, "Shut up, you have no right to criticize anything that Douglas Murray says because you've not got my skin color," okay, it's not an exact comparison, but seriously, is that a, is that a reasonable form of argument? "Uh, you haven't been through everything I've been through in my life, therefore you can't comment." No. In that case, nobody can talk about anything. We might as well pack up, go home, and isolate ourselves.

   17. LFLex Fridman27:47

       Strong words, but can you try to steel man the case? Not in this particular situation, but there's people that have lived through something that can comment in a very specific way.

   18. DMDouglas Murray27:59

       Yes.

   19. LFLex Fridman27:59

       Like, for example, Holocaust survivors.

   20. DMDouglas Murray28:00

       Yes.

   21. LFLex Fridman28:03

       There is a sense in which, maybe a basic sense of civility when a Holocaust survivor speaking about their experience of the Holocaust-

   22. DMDouglas Murray28:11

       Mm-hmm.

   23. LFLex Fridman28:12

       ... than, um, an intellectual from a very different part of the world that's simply writing about, uh, nuanced geopolitics of World War II, just should not interrupt the Holocaust survivor. But-

   24. DMDouglas Murray28:26

       Well, you'd physically interrupt them if they're telling you their story.

   25. LFLex Fridman28:29

       No, with words, with logic and reason, that the experience of the Holocaust survivor somehow fundamentally has a deeper understanding of the humanity and the injustice of the...

   26. DMDouglas Murray28:41

       Well, first of all, I'm, uh... And again, we're in even deeper waters now, but in terms of wanting to listen to another person who has experienced something, yes. Yes. But not endlessly. Not endlessly. I mean, there are some people who've written about the... I mean, there are people who've written about the Holocaust who didn't experience the Holocaust and have written about it better than people who did. It's, it's not... This, this, this idea that the lived experience, to use this terrible modern jargon as if there's another type, this, this, this idea that the lived experience has to triumph over everything else is, is not always correct. It can be correct in some circumstances. If you were sitting in a room with a Holocaust survivor and somebody who'd never heard about the Holocaust and wanted to kind of, you know, shoot out their views on it, yeah, one of those people should be heard more than the other, obviously. Obviously. If there's somebody who's experienced racism firsthand and there's somebody else who has never experienced it, then obviously you'd want to hear from the person who has experienced it firsthand, if that is the discussion underway. I, I don't think that it's the case that that is endlessly the case. I'm also highly reluctant to concede that there are groups of people who, by dint of their skin color or anything else, get to dominate the microphone. Now, of course, we're literally both speaking into microphones at the moment, so there's an irony to this. But let's skate over the irony. What I mean is people saying, "You don't have the right to speak. I have the right to take the microphone from you and speak because I know best." Fine. If you know best, we'll argue it out and someone will win, long or short term.... but the, the, um, the, the almost aggressive tone in which this is now leveled, I don't like the sound of. Nobody's experience is completely understandable by another human being. Nobody's. And what many people are asking us to do at the moment, us collectively, is to fall for that thing, I think it was Camille Foster who said it first, but I've, um, adopted in recent years, is to say, "You must spend an inordinate amount of your life trying to understand me personally, my lived experience, everything about me. You should dedicate your life to trying to do that. Simultaneously, you'll never understand me." This is not an attractive invitation. This is- this is- this is a- an unwinnable game. So if somebody... If somebody has a legitimate, um, and i- an important point to make, they should make it and they will win through whatever their character is, whatever their race. And by the way, there are plenty of white people who experience racism as well. There are plenty of white people who do, and have done, and increasingly so, which is one of the things I write about in The War on the West. I mean, I- I would argue that today in America, the only group you are actually allowed to be consistently, vilely racist against are white people. If you say disgusting things about Black people in America in 2022, you will be over. You will be over. If you decide to talk about people's white tears, their white female tears, their white guilt, their white privilege, their white rage, and all these other pseudo-pathologizing terms, you'll be just fine. You could be the chairman of Joint Chiefs of Staff. You could lecture at Yale University absolutely fine, and the white people have to suck that up as if that's fine because there was racism in another direction in the past. So white people can have racism as well. Does that mean that I think that I have a right or other white people have a right to dominate the discourse by talking about their feelings of having been the victim- victims of racism? No, not particularly, because what does that get us? It gets us into a endless cycle of competitive victimhood. Am I saying that white people who've experienced violence have experienced historically anything like the violence that was perpetrated against Black people in America historically? Obviously not. But, you know, what kind of competition do we want to enter here? And this is very, very important terrain now in America because there's one other thing I have to throw in there which is, how do you work out the sincerity of the claim? How do you work out the sincerity of the claim being made? At one point, uh, in my bo- in this latest book, I refer to a very useful bit in, um, in Nietzsche and The Genealogy of Morals, where, as you know, Nietzsche always has to be treated carefully. You know, when people say, um, "I love Nietzsche," you have to say, "Which bits?"

   27. LFLex Fridman33:33

       (laughs)

   28. DMDouglas Murray33:34

       What exactly do you love about him? But, um, he...

   29. LFLex Fridman33:41

       (laughs)

   30. DMDouglas Murray33:41

       Uh, a lot- and a lot can be learned from the answer. Uh, but th- there are moments in Genealogy of Morals that were very useful for this book. One of them was the moment when Nietzsche, uh, uses a phrase that I've now stolen for myself, appropriated you might say, um, where, um, where he refers to people who, who tear at wounds long since closed and then cry about the pain they feel. Now, how do you know? How do you know whether the pain is real? How do you know? I'm not saying you can never know, but it's hard. So when somebody says, "I feel that my life hasn't gone that well and it's because of something that was done to my ancestors 200 years ago," maybe they do feel that. Maybe they're right to feel that. Maybe they're making it up. Maybe they're using it as their reason for failure in life. Maybe they're u- using it as a reason to not even try. Maybe they're using it as a reason to smoke weed all day. I don't know. Uh, and who does know? How can you work that out? And that's why I come back to this thing of, who are we to constantly judge in this society other people who we don't know and attribute motives to them based on h- on racial or other characteristics?
7. 35:47 – 47:53

   Resentment

   1. LFLex Fridman35:47

      Okay. So you write in this part of the book about evil, um, quote, "What is it that drives evil? Many things without doubt, but one of them is identified by several of the great philosophers is resentment."

   2. DMDouglas Murray36:03

      Yes.

   3. LFLex Fridman36:04

      "That sentiment is one of the greatest drivers for people who want to destroy:" colon, "blaming someone else for having something you believe you deserve more." And you're saying this kind of resentment, we don't know as it surfaces whether it's genuine or if it's, uh, used to sort of play games of power to evil ends.

   4. DMDouglas Murray36:28

      Mm.

   5. LFLex Fridman36:29

      Um, can you speak to this? To this- this... 'Cause it's such a fascinating idea that one of the biggest drivers of evil in the world...... is resentment. Mm. Because if you look at... Boy, if you look at human history, if you look at Hitler, uh, so much of the propaganda, so much of the narrative was about resentment. Mm. So is that surface or is it level or is that deep, the resentment

   6. DMDouglas Murray36:55

      It can be-

   7. LFLex Fridman36:56

      ... that Jeremy's ... -it can be any of the above. Let's first of all preface it, everybody has resentment. Um, I- Resentment.

   8. DMDouglas Murray37:02

      ... I use the term r- re- ressentiment which is, is thought very similar to resentment, but let's stick with resentment so that we don't sound too pretentious.

   9. LFLex Fridman37:12

      (laughs)

   10. DMDouglas Murray37:12

       Um, the...

   11. LFLex Fridman37:16

       (laughs)

   12. DMDouglas Murray37:17

       Let me give you a quick example of somebody in our own day who, who has res- who has a form of resentment, Vladimir Putin. Did you see, um, Navalny's documentary, Putin's Palace?

   13. LFLex Fridman37:27

       Yes.

   14. DMDouglas Murray37:27

       Yeah. You remember the stuff about, uh, Putin as a young KGB officer in Germany? Remember the stuff about Putin, his first wife's resentment of one of his KGB colleagues who had a- an apartment that was a few meters bigger than the- Putin's apartment?

   15. LFLex Fridman37:43

       (laughs) Yeah.

   16. DMDouglas Murray37:44

       It's very interesting. And I... Uh, by the way, I'm not saying that, you know, Vladimir Putin became the man he has become and invaded Ukraine because he didn't have an apartment he liked in Ber- in Berlin or Munich, wherever he was.

   17. LFLex Fridman37:54

       But it's a distinct possibility.

   18. DMDouglas Murray37:56

       My, my point is, is... (laughs) My point is, is that, is that resentment is, is a factor in all human lives and we all feel it in, um, in our lives and it's, it's something that has to be struggled against. Resentment is, in political terms, can be a deadly... I mean, it's an incredibly deep thing to draw upon. And you mentioned Hitler, obviously one of the things that Hitler played on was resentment, obviously. Uh, l- almost every revolution he does, I mean, the French Revolutionaries did as well. And, and were not without cause. Uh, there's a good reason to feel that Versailles was not listening to Paris in the 1780s and feel resentment for, um, Marie Antoinette in her palace within the palace, ignoring the bread shortages in Paris. Um, so resentment is, is a very... It's a very understandable thing, and sometimes it's justifiable, and it's also deadly to the person as it is to the society. Um, it's an incredibly deep, deep sentiment. Somebody else has, um, got something that you should have. And the, the problem about it is that it, it's, it has the potential to be endless. Um, you can do it your whole life. And one of the ways I've, I've, I've sort of ex- sort of found myself explaining this to people is to say it's also important to recognize that resentment is something that can cross absolutely every boundary. So, for instance, it crosses all racial boundaries, obviously, it goes without saying. More interesting is it crosses all class boundaries and socioeconomic boundaries. And if I was to sort of simplify this thought, I would say, I guess that you and I, and everybody watching, knows or has known somebody in their lives who has almost nothing in worldly terms and is a generous person, a kindly person, uh, a giving person, um, a happy person even, a cheerful person. And I think we probably have also, or many of us would've met people who seem to have everything and who are filled with resentment, filled with resentment. Somebody else has held them back from something, their sister once did something that s- they, she, she shouldn't... She got this and I should've got that, and, and on and on and on. It's a human trait. And one, one of the things that suggests to me is that we therefore have a choice in our lives about this, that this is something which we can do something about. Not limitlessly, but for instance, I mean, there are very good reasons that some people in their lives might feel resentment. Let's say you're involved in a car crash and a friend fell asleep at the wheel, and that's why you are spending the rest of your life in a wheelchair, there's a pertinent example of this in American politics at the moment. Um, you would be justified in feeling resentment. And at some point you have to make a decision, which is, am I going to be that person or a different person?

   19. LFLex Fridman41:08

       But even in that case, you're saying at the individual level and at societal level, it's destructive to the mind. Even when you're, quote unquote, "justified," it still-

   20. DMDouglas Murray41:16

       It rots you. It rots you, because the best you can do is to eke out your days unfulfilled.

   21. LFLex Fridman41:27

       So the antidote, as you describe, is gratitude?

   22. DMDouglas Murray41:30

       Yes.

   23. LFLex Fridman41:31

       Gratitude is the antidote to evil, in a sense.

   24. DMDouglas Murray41:35

       So it's-

   25. LFLex Fridman41:35

       Gratitude at the individual level and at the societal level.

   26. DMDouglas Murray41:38

       Gratitude is certainly the answer to resentment. I, um, I quote in The War on the West is, is this... But when I read it, uh, first time a few years ago, I was absolutely floored by, um, The Brothers Karamazov. Uh, not everything in it, by the way, and I won't get into it, but I had, I have some very big structural criticisms of the novel.

   27. LFLex Fridman41:59

       Now, now you're just sweet talking to me because I'm a Dostoevsky fan-

   28. DMDouglas Murray42:03

       Okay. (laughs)

   29. LFLex Fridman42:03

       ... but I appreciate this.

   30. DMDouglas Murray42:04

       Oh, uh, okay.
8. 47:53 – 1:02:26

   Critical race theory

   1. LFLex Fridman47:53

      the idea of critical race theory.

   2. DMDouglas Murray47:55

      Mm-hmm.

   3. LFLex Fridman47:57

      Um, can you, to me, explain? So I'm an engineer and have not been actually paying attention much, unfortunately, to th- th- these things. I-

   4. DMDouglas Murray48:07

      None of the people in your field were until it comes along and smacks you in the face.

   5. LFLex Fridman48:11

      I, you know, I, I have had that line of thinking and, you know, from MIT, I, I said, "Well, surely, whatever you folks are busy about yelling at each other for is, is a thing at Harvard and Yale."

   6. DMDouglas Murray48:25

      Hmm.

   7. LFLex Fridman48:26

      "It's not going to

   8. NANarrator48:27

      ... hit me."

   9. DMDouglas Murray48:27

      Yeah, yeah, yeah, of course. Yeah, people in the STEM subjects thought, "It's not coming for us. It can't come to us."

   10. LFLex Fridman48:32

       Yeah.

   11. DMDouglas Murray48:32

       And bang.

   12. LFLex Fridman48:33

       Well, it's co- you know, it hasn't quite been a bang. I'm not sure.

   13. DMDouglas Murray48:36

       Engineering is, is more safe than others-

   14. LFLex Fridman48:39

       Yeah.Uh, so not, so let's draw a line now between engineering and science.

   15. DMDouglas Murray48:44

       Mm-hmm.

   16. LFLex Fridman48:45

       So, uh, (laughs) the, I think engineering is, uh, um, uh, sitting in a, in a castle in the tallest tower with, with my pinky out, drinking my martini, saying, "Surely, uh, the, the peasants below with their biology and their humanities-"

   17. DMDouglas Murray49:00

       (laughs)

   18. LFLex Fridman49:00

       "...will, will figure it all out." No, I'm just kidding. There's no, there's no pinky out. I drink vodka.

   19. DMDouglas Murray49:05

       (laughs)

   20. LFLex Fridman49:06

       And, and I hang with the peasants. Okay. Where is this, this metaphor has gone too far. Uh, can you explain, (laughs) uh, to this engineer what critical race theory is? Is it uh, uh, a, a term that's definable? Is there tradition? Is there a history? What is good about it? What is bad about it?

   21. DMDouglas Murray49:23

       It is a tr- it is a tradition, it is a history, it's a school of thought. It started in the law, uh, roughly in the 1970s in some of the American academy. Uh, it spilled out, it always aimed to be an activist philosophy. People deny that now, but as I cite in War on the West, I mean, the foundational texts say as much. This isn't, this is an activist, uh, um, academic study. We're not just looking at, at the law. We seek to change the law. And it's spilled out into all of the other disciplines. I think there's a reason for that, by the way, which is, it happened at the time that the humanities and others in America were increasingly weak and didn't know what to do, and they needed more games to play or new games to play.

   22. LFLex Fridman50:07

       The psychologists got bored.

   23. DMDouglas Murray50:09

       Yeah. I mean, the, well, they needed tenure and they needed, they needed something to do. And I mean, it's, it's not an original observation. Plenty of people have made this, but I mean, I mean, Neil Ferguson said this some time ago, for instance, that in the last 50 years in American academia, certainly in humanities departments, when some- when somebody dies out who's a great scholar in something, they're just not replaced by somebody of equal stature. They're replaced by somebody who does theory or critical race theory. They're replaced by somebody who does the modern games. Somebody dies out who's a great historian of, say, I don't know, it's the one that's on my mind, um, Russian history or Russian literature, and they're not replaced by a similar, um, scholar.

   24. LFLex Fridman50:53

       His, uh, in his observation and, and in yours, is this a, is this a recent development?

   25. DMDouglas Murray50:57

       It's happened the last few decades for sure. And it sped up.

   26. LFLex Fridman51:01

       Did, is it 'cause we've gotten to the bottom of some of the biggest questions of history?

   27. DMDouglas Murray51:05

       No. It's, uh, because we're willing to forget the big questions.

   28. LFLex Fridman51:09

       'Cause it's more fun to, big questions aren't as fun?

   29. DMDouglas Murray51:12

       Well, no. Partly it's, uh, partly it's, no, I should stress that partly it's an, it's, this is in the weeds, but partly it's, it's a result of the hyper-specialization in academia.

   30. LFLex Fridman51:19

       Sure.
9. 1:02:26 – 1:21:24

   Racism

   1. LFLex Fridman1:02:27

      What is racism? How much of it is in our world today? If we were thinking about this activity of Hitler spotting, how, um... and trying to steel-man the case of, if not critical race theory, but people who, who look for racism in our world.

   2. DMDouglas Murray1:02:45

      Mm.

   3. LFLex Fridman1:02:46

      How much would you say?

   4. DMDouglas Murray1:02:48

      Well, let's, it's a good thing to try to define. I'd say that r- racism is the, the belief that other people are inferior to you. You could say, you could see a form of it where you thought people were superior to you. That could also happen. But more commonly, it's you see a group of b- people as being inferior to you simply by dint of the fact that they have a different racial background. And, um, that's sort of the easiest way to define racism. Uh, as I say, I mean, there are types of racism. I mean, main- mainly antisemitism actually, perhaps it's the only one, which weirdly relies on, on a hatred of people who a certain type of person thinks, thinks are better than them. And that's a particular peculiarity, one of the peculiarities of antisemitism.

   5. LFLex Fridman1:03:40

      Well, antisemitism somehow does both, right?

   6. DMDouglas Murray1:03:42

      Yes. Well, o- one of the eternal fascinating things about antisemitism is it can do, it does everything at the same time.

   7. LFLex Fridman1:03:50

      (laughs) It's like a quantum racism.

   8. DMDouglas Murray1:03:52

      Yes.

   9. LFLex Fridman1:03:53

      You're both superior and inferior.

   10. DMDouglas Murray1:03:55

       You know that, do, do you know, um, Vasily Grossman's Life and Fate?

   11. LFLex Fridman1:03:58

       Mm-hmm.

   12. DMDouglas Murray1:04:00

       So in the middle of Life and Fate, um, which a Persian friend of mine always said was one of only two great novels of the 20th century. She was very harsh, a literary critic.

   13. LFLex Fridman1:04:08

       (laughs) What was the other one?

   14. DMDouglas Murray1:04:09

       Oh, The Leopard, obviously.

   15. LFLex Fridman1:04:10

       The Leopard?

   16. DMDouglas Murray1:04:11

       The Leopard, version Giuseppe di Lampedusa. Yeah.

   17. LFLex Fridman1:04:14

       Okay.

   18. DMDouglas Murray1:04:14

       And she definitely right on that one.

   19. LFLex Fridman1:04:16

       Yeah.

   20. DMDouglas Murray1:04:16

       Life and Fate is a, is a, is a-

   21. LFLex Fridman1:04:18

       I'm learning so much today. Yes, Leopard fate.

   22. DMDouglas Murray1:04:19

       Life and Fate is a, is a, um, is an extraordinary book, mainly about... We know Grossman was a, um, uh, obviously Jewish himself, but he, uh, he, he saw, uh, almost everything, uh, whether he could have done in the second world war is he saw Stalingrad. He was a journalist and he, he wrote first-hand accounts of Stalingrad. He, he was also the first journalist into, into Treblinka. And his account, which you can read in one of the collections of his journalism, his account of walking into Treblinka is just one of the most devastating, haunting pieces of journalism or prose you can read. Anyhow, I mention him because Grossman at the begi- at the, in the middle of Life and Fate, which is about a 900-page novel, um, in the middle of it, which is about the dark axis around Stalingrad, uh, he... Where at one point, he amazingly sort of goes into the minds of both Hitler and Stalin. And he says, he says, "Stalin in his study feels his counterpart in Berlin." He says he feels very close to him at this moment.

   23. LFLex Fridman1:05:26

       Wow. Around Stalingrad, like leading up to the fact-

   24. DMDouglas Murray1:05:29

       After Stalingrad when the Germans have lost, he says he feels the closeness of Hitler. But Grossman, in the middle of Life and Fate, slap bang at the worst hours of the 20th century, suddenly dedicates a chapter to antisemitism. And I've seen... Antisemitism is something I've always been very interested in, uh, because I've always had an instinctive utter revulsion of it. And, um, also partly because of having seen bits of it in the Middle East and elsewhere. But, uh, I mention this because Grossman in the middle of Life and Fate has, takes time out and does this like three-page explanation or three-page description of antisemitism. And it's extraordinary. I mean, it's, it's... The only thing I can think of that's equally good is, um, uh, Gregor von Retzori, who wrote alluredly titled but brilliant set of novellas called The Confessions of an Anti-Semite about pre-w- pre-First World War antisemitism in Eastern and Central Europe. Anyway, Grossman says in the middle of Life and Fate that one of the extraordinary things about antisemitism is that it does everything at the same time, that the Jews get condemned in one place for being rich and in another for being poor.... condemned in one place for assimilating and another for not assimilating, uh, for assimilating too much and assimilating too little, for being too successful, for not being successful enough. So it's, I think it's the only racism that includes within it a detestation, for the real anti-Semite, a detestation of people that the person may perceive to be better than them, correctly or otherwise.

   25. LFLex Fridman1:07:21

       By the way, um, I'm embarrassed to say I have not read this one of two greatest novels of the 20th century, Life and Fate, Zhizni i sud'ba. And just to read off of Wikipedia, "Vassily Grossman, a Ukrainian Jew, became a correspondent for the Soviet military paper, Krasnaya Zvezda. Having volunteered and been rejected from military service, he spent a thousand days in the front lines, roughly three of the four years of the conflict between the Germans and the Soviets." And the main themes covered in, uh, how does it go? Life and Fate. I keep thinking Zhizni i sud'ba. Is a theme on Jewish identity in the Holocaust, Grossman's idea of humanity and the human goodness, Stalin's distortion of reality and values-

   26. DMDouglas Murray1:08:03

       Hmm.

   27. LFLex Fridman1:08:04

       ... and, uh, science, life goes on, and reality of war. It's interesting. I need to definitely, definitely read it.

   28. DMDouglas Murray1:08:09

       You need to read it. It, you'll, I think you'll really get a lot from it. It, one of the other things... Sorry, ? ... but one of the other things he does is that he, he has this extraordinary ability to, to talk about the, the h- the, the absolute highest levels of the conflict and then zoom in. It's rather like the camera work they use in things like Lord of the Rings, w- where he, he zooms down and gets one person in the midst of all this and you get, you, you get on that.

   29. LFLex Fridman1:08:32

       Or puts you in the study too. So I-

   30. DMDouglas Murray1:08:34

       Yeah.
10. 1:21:24 – 1:25:58

    Stalin

    1. LFLex Fridman1:21:24

       important.

    2. DMDouglas Murray1:21:24

       Oh, I should... If we had a moment, I'd tell you my story about Stalin's birthplace. Should I tell you that?

    3. LFLex Fridman1:21:28

       No.

    4. DMDouglas Murray1:21:29

       I once went to Gori, where Stalin was born. Have you been?

    5. LFLex Fridman1:21:33

       No, no.

    6. DMDouglas Murray1:21:34

       It's funny. I, I was there just after the Georgia war. And I went, went to the no man's land in South Ossetia and Abkhazia. And, uh, I said, uh, "I really gotta go to Gori or so," because a shell had landed in Gori rather weirdly from the Russian side, and Gori is where Stalin was born. And, uh, of course Gori is in Georgia. And, uh, um, anyhow, the, the museum of Stalin's birthplace, they've been trying to change for some years, because it had been (laughs) unadulteratedly pro-Stalin for years. And the Georgian authorities, this is in, uh, um, uh, Saakashvili's time, were trying to make it into a museum of Stalinism. And it was really tough. Uh, the only place I've seen which is similar is the house in Mexico City where Trotsky was killed.

    7. LFLex Fridman1:22:22

       Hmm.

    8. DMDouglas Murray1:22:22

       Uh, that also is like, they're not quite sure what to do. They, they don't want to say he's a bad guy, because they think that people won't come anyhow. Um, Stalin's house in Gori had changed from the Museum of Stalin to the Museum of Stalinism. And there was this r- large Georgian woman with a pink pencil who just had clearly been doing the tour for like 50 years. And just pointed to all the facts. And she did that classic thing, I've also sort- saw it once in North Korea where they, that sort of s- that sort of communist thing where they say, "Here is... This is 147 feet high by 13 feet deep." And they give you lots of facts. You go, "I don't care."

    9. LFLex Fridman1:22:54

       (laughs) Yeah.

    10. DMDouglas Murray1:22:55

        What does it matter?

    11. LFLex Fridman1:22:56

        Yeah.

    12. DMDouglas Murray1:22:56

        Um, they always give you facts.

    13. LFLex Fridman1:22:57

        Yeah.

    14. DMDouglas Murray1:22:58

        This is Stalin's suitcase, it is, uh, 13, uh, inches wide by... you know, this, that. Anyhow, and, uh, this woman did all of this, and it was all just wildly pro... Well, not pro Stalin, she just explained Stalin's life. It was just, you know, great local boy done good. Uh, they didn't mention the fact he killed more Georgians per capita than anyone else.

    15. LFLex Fridman1:23:17

        (laughs) Local boy done good.

    16. DMDouglas Murray1:23:18

        And we get, get to the end, and before, uh, being taken to the gift shop where they sell red wine with Stalin's face on it, and among other things, uh, and a lighter w- with Stalin on it, uh, they, uh, they took you to a little room under the stairs and they said, "This is a replica of interrogation cell to show, uh, uh, represent horror of what happened in Stalin time. Uh, now gift shop." As I... (laughs) there's no, no kind of... And I, and I took the woman aside at the, at the end. I discovered she'd said this to other journalists and, you know, visited before. I took her aside and I said, I said, "Well, what do you think about Comrade Stalin?" And she said, um... As I say, she'd obviously done this during communist times or... She said, "It's l- uh, it's not my, not my place to judge," you know, that sort of thing.

    17. LFLex Fridman1:24:08

        Hmm.

    18. DMDouglas Murray1:24:09

        Which is an interesting comment in itself. And I said, "Yeah, but he killed more Georgians than anyone," and, you know, and, and all that sort of thing. And she kept saying, "It's not my place to judge or to give my views," and that sort of thing. And eventually I said, "But what do you feel about it?" And she said, um, "It was like a hurricane. It happened."

    19. LFLex Fridman1:24:28

        Hmm. That's interesting, because, uh, if I may mention Clubhouse once again, I'd gotten the chance to talk to a few people from Mongolia.

    20. DMDouglas Murray1:24:36

        Hmm.

    21. LFLex Fridman1:24:37

        There's a woman from Mongolia. And they talked about the fact that they r- deeply admire Stalin.

    22. DMDouglas Murray1:24:42

        Hmm.

    23. LFLex Fridman1:24:42

        They love... She, she sounded, if I may, hopefully that's not crossing the line, I think I'm representing her correctly in saying sh- she admired him almost like, um, like loved him. Like the pe-

    24. DMDouglas Murray1:24:55

        Yes.

    25. LFLex Fridman1:24:55

        ... the way people love like a, a, um, like a, a, like Jesus, like a-

    26. DMDouglas Murray1:24:59

        Yes.

    27. LFLex Fridman1:24:59

        ... a holy figure.

    28. DMDouglas Murray1:25:00

        Well, isn't that st- still the case in large parts of Russia?

    29. LFLex Fridman1:25:02

        Yeah.

    30. DMDouglas Murray1:25:02

        I mean, he keeps on, Stalin keeps on winning greatest Russian of all time.
11. 1:25:58 – 1:32:01

    Churchill

    1. LFLex Fridman1:25:58

       Can we mention Churchill briefly?

    2. DMDouglas Murray1:26:00

       Sure.

    3. LFLex Fridman1:26:00

       Because, uh, he is one of the, um... You can make a case for him being one of the great representers or great figures historically of Western civilization.

    4. DMDouglas Murray1:26:11

       Yes.

    5. LFLex Fridman1:26:12

       And then there's a lot of people, uh, from... Not a lot. (laughs) I know I have like three friends, and one of, (laughs) one of them happens to be from London, and they, they say that he's a, a, um, not a good person.

    6. DMDouglas Murray1:26:26

       Why?

    7. LFLex Fridman1:26:27

       So listen, this friend, we, we do not discuss... I just, this is an opinion poll of the three friends. But I do know that there's quite a bit, you know-

    8. DMDouglas Murray1:26:35

       There's a backlash going on at the moment.

    9. LFLex Fridman1:26:37

       At the moment and in general, there's a spirit like reflecting on, on the darker sides of some of these historical figures, like challenging history through... It's, it's not just critical race theory. It's, it's challenging history through well, are the people we think of as heroes, what are their flaws? And are they in fact-

    10. DMDouglas Murray1:27:00

        Sure.

    11. LFLex Fridman1:27:00

        ... villains that are convenient, um, sort of, uh, were there at the right time to accidentally do the right thing?

    12. DMDouglas Murray1:27:12

        Accidentally?

    13. LFLex Fridman1:27:14

        (laughs)

    14. DMDouglas Murray1:27:14

        Well, I hope this isn't the representative, fair estimation of your friend in London's views.

    15. LFLex Fridman1:27:21

        No. She's going to be quite mad at this. But I didn't say the name, so it could be any friend. It could be-

Episode duration: 2:38:30