Ed Calderon: Mexican Drug Cartels | Lex Fridman Podcast #346

1. 0:00 – 0:59

   Introduction

   1. ECEd Calderon0:00

      ... when it's quiet, that's when it hits you. That's what, uh, I think that's what a lot of people experience when they come back from a conflict zone. You know, the, uh, everything that was life and death, everything that mattered, all the noise, all the chaos, all the people that are around you that would die for you, kill for you, you would kill for them, uh, all the millions of dollars worth of equipment and stuff like that you were responsible for, now all- are all gone and it's just you.

   2. LFLex Fridman0:28

      The following is a conversation with Ed Calderon, a security specialist who has worked for many years on counter-narcotics and organized crime investigation in the northern border region of Mexico. I highly recommend you follow the writing and courses on his Patreon and website, edsmanifesto.com. This is the Lex Fridman podcast. To support it, please check out our sponsors in the description, and now, dear friends, here's Ed Calderon.

2. 0:59 – 34:41

   Corruption

   1. LFLex Fridman0:59

      What does your experience in counter-narcotics, investigating the Mexican drug cartel teach you about human nature?

   2. ECEd Calderon1:06

      Well, I mean, first off, anybody can be got. Uh, anybody can be corrupted. Uh, you know, you, you work in that field and you, you... Realistically, the training we got and profiling and investigation and stuff li- stuff like that was basically you learn from the older guys there, and some of those guys were already corrupted from the, from the start. So, trust no one. I remember seeing that X-Files episode where that was stated. You quickly learn that even if you are somebody that, uh, to your own, uh, mind appears incorruptible, you know, small changes happen around you, wheels get greased, money gets put in front of you and/or things get threatened, like your life. And, uh, sometimes a payment for some of this corruption is just to continue on living. You encounter people that seem incorruptible that, uh, go through FBI background checks, that go through all of the, uh, the sec- the security measures that all of us were put throu- through. Um, you know, polygraph tests, and then later on, you know, it turns out they were on the take, or they became somebody that was corrupted. I think what I found out is that anybody, at any level, uh, they could be a very strong, hard-to-get person right now, but, uh, people get corrupted through their families, uh, through need. Uh, Mexico is a place where a lot of, uh, instability occurs. Um, so financial needs, health.

   3. LFLex Fridman2:36

      So a crack could form through the wall of integrity and then over time, it seeps in somehow.

   4. ECEd Calderon2:42

      Mexico has a culture of corruption. Like, you know, you have your kid that goes to school, at public school, and you want him to be in the morning, not in the afternoon school, uh, time period. So, you go off and, uh, grease the wheels with the, uh, director of the school. People hearing this in Mexico will nod their heads, because this is something that happens from early on. So there's systemic thi- there's a systemic and cultural thing to it, you know, as far as getting around rules. And this k- happens because, you know, the people are in charge in Mexico, the government, is, you know... Their, their tandem amount is trust, uh, between criminals and the cartels down there for a lot of the culture. So people don't trust the government, and much less, uh, criminality, so.

   5. LFLex Fridman3:21

      When you meet a person, sticking on human nature, do you think it's possible to figure out if they can be trusted? So you said, uh, anyone could be corrupted. You know, how long would you need to talk to a person, in your, even in your own personal private life, just a friend? Or is trust a thing that's never really guaranteed?

   6. ECEd Calderon3:40

      I think, uh, trust is never re- really guaranteed. I know a lot of people are gonna say that's a sad way and hard way of living your life, but, you know, life experience at my end, you know, people change. Uh, you know, the dynamics of a relationship might change. Um, I, I look at people's character, specifically their past and past experiences if I can. Somebody that presents themself in front of you as a somebody, but you quickly learn that that somebody is just a mask, uh, persona that they kind of, uh, created for themselves.

   7. LFLex Fridman4:08

      And they might not even be aware of the persona? Like, is there some deep psychological stuff?

   8. ECEd Calderon4:11

      Some, sometimes. I've experienced a lot of, uh, failure in my life. Uh, you can see it in my nose, you know? You can see it in the, my lack of a, of a, a digit, you know? Um, the amount of, uh, you know, the amount of failures you can see in somebody and how they wear them sometimes is a pretty telling thing as far as them being able to be trusted, or that you can trust their story or their experience. And when I say experience, I mean I've met some criminals, like former criminals or, you know, some peop- some people of that background that I trust with my life, you know? Well, because they're not, not reformed. Uh, but they figured out that that's not s- not a life they could live long enough to kind of continue on in. And I've also met people that are in law enforcement that I wouldn't trust with my car keys, you know? Um, because, uh, you know, whatever persona they adopt- adopted over the, over the years, uh, is a pretty good one, pretty good mask. Sometimes such a good mask, they don't even know they're wearing it.

   9. LFLex Fridman5:06

      And, uh, on top of that, it's not just the psychology. There's also a neurobiology to it of... I've been very fortunate, and deliberate, to surround myself with good people throughout my life. But I've recently gotten to sort of observe, not close to me, but nearby, somebody that could be classified as a sociopath.

   10. ECEd Calderon5:27

       Yeah.

   11. LFLex Fridman5:28

       And, and a, and a narcissist.

   12. ECEd Calderon5:31

       Yeah.

   13. LFLex Fridman5:31

       Like, I, I don't want to use those psychological terms, but just, I- it's like, oh, people, you know, come with different biology too. So it's not just like the, the trauma you might experience in your early life and all the deep complexity that leads... uh, all the deep complexity that leads to the, the psychology that you are s- have as an adult. But it's also the biology you come with, the, the nature, that you might not just have the...... the machine that can empathize deeply with the experience of others, or maybe a machine that gets off, gets a dopamine rush from the man- manipulation of other humans.

   14. ECEd Calderon6:10

       Yeah.

   15. LFLex Fridman6:10

       Or the control of other humans.

   16. ECEd Calderon6:11

       Yeah. I mean, put an example of my- my own background. Uh, my mom didn't have a father, you know. She, uh, she... Uh, he left really early on in her- in their childhood. You know, my mom raised her two sisters, and basically kept a household. Uh, she was a great mom. Uh, she was a badass, you know. She was very independent. She showed me how to be independent. She showed me how to kinda, uh, watch out for others, and kinda build me up in that way. And, uh, I had a great childhood as far as, you know, as far as her, and kinda like sh- how she molded me. Later on, I figured out that, uh, when I had my own kid, you know, I- I figured out that she was basically trying to make me into what she didn't have, in a way. And if I can get to see somebody's parents, you know, that's usually a- that's usually a sign of, uh, of something, at least, uh, for me, as far as figuring out where people are. I think there's something to be said about nature and nurture, and how some people come up. Some people are just born with that, uh, predatory instinct, you know. Um, and you'll never know, I mean, they pr- they spend their whole life practicing how to hide it. Uh, but if you can figure out, uh, somebody's, you know, background, childhood, where they're from, you can kinda tell something about them, you know. I'm from Tijuana, you know. I'm a survivor. That's- that's my background, as far as where I'm from.

   17. LFLex Fridman7:30

       Uh, culturally, genetically, psychologically, the full shebang.

   18. ECEd Calderon7:36

       Yeah. I guess some people are born with, uh, certain predispositions, and if they're in the right environment, some of the negative aspects might flourish more than others, you know. For me, I mean, I grew up skateboarding in Tijuana, and I remember breaking into my first, uh, backyard pool. It was a house that a cartel guy owned, and we used to skate the- the pool in the back- in the back of it. Uh, so I learned how to pop open padlocks, uh, with a, uh, with a small, uh, vehicle hydraulic, uh, lift. And I remember doing that, and, uh, later on in life, I got to train with people from other parts of Mexico, and- and work with them. And I remember pulling that trick off, and they were, like, looking at me, like, "Where'd you learn that?" (laughs) like, burglars in Tijuana, you know? (laughs) And they're like, "Wow, that's interesting." Like, "Are all- all- all people from Tijuana like that?" And I said, "No, we're not all like that." But I guess in some way we are, because, you know, Tijuana produces some- produces kids like that, you know? She produces, like, the environment itself produces- uh, produces a pretty specific person, I guess. You know, where our normal is- our normal, or our baseline normal is way different than most.

   19. LFLex Fridman8:43

       The, uh, trajectories that you can take in life are, um, are defined in a way that aren't available elsewhere in the world.

   20. ECEd Calderon8:51

       Yeah.

   21. LFLex Fridman8:52

       And so you develop... I mean, that, part of that is psychological, part of that is cultural, and so on. Um, part of it is the cultural trauma, but then also the ethical lines based on the corruption, 'cause I grew up in the Soviet Union, and there's- there's the same kind of understanding that there's some gray area of corruption.

   22. ECEd Calderon9:08

       Yeah. There's al- it's always there, like at the- on the outskirts, or even in the center, y- how you can grease things to make things easier, and how it's like a- it's a personal thing. Like, "I'll- I'll just, you know, pay off the..." In Tijuana, we have a mordida is what we call it, you know, when you- when you pay a cop off. A mordida means a bite. So, (laughs) and, uh-

   23. LFLex Fridman9:30

       But what's, uh, what's the bite aspect of it?

   24. ECEd Calderon9:33

       Uh, uh, so you get stopped for- for a traffic violation of some sort, and a cop, uh, walks up to you. Obviously, you don't say the word "bite," but it's like-

   25. LFLex Fridman9:40

       Yeah.

   26. ECEd Calderon9:40

       ... a, it's like a slang term for it. And, uh, he asked, uh, for your paperwork, and, you know, and if you get fined or s- get a ticket, you say, "Can I pay the ticket here?"

   27. LFLex Fridman9:51

       Yeah.

   28. ECEd Calderon9:51

       Is what they say. And, you know, put their money inside the paperwork, and hand it over to the cop, mordida. You think it's, you know, "I'm just gonna do it, and nobody knows," you know, but it's a systemic thing. Everybody, like, a lot of people do it, and then they don't trust the police because they are fed with this.

   29. LFLex Fridman10:07

       Yeah, I mean, s- same thing was in the Soviet Union. It's funny. But then there's something inside you where that kind of, um, those opportunities come, like, uh, with a police officer, where you realize you could just pay a little bit of money and get out of a thing, and then you realize you can pay a little bit of money or do a favor to get your kids in a better school or something like that.

   30. ECEd Calderon10:27

       Yeah.
3. 34:41 – 50:02

   Cartels

   1. ECEd Calderon34:41

   2. LFLex Fridman34:41

      How does a cartel take power? How does it gain control of this local area that you mentioned and then grow, get, take control of a region, and how does it do so in this dynamic relationship between, um, politicians and the military and the police force?

   3. ECEd Calderon35:03

      It's a thing that happens over time. There has always been a big effort, even when I was in, uh, to buy or own certain members of the police force. Even when going through training, some people get pulled out during training because they were found out to have some sort of parent or sibling that was a cartel member, or they, uh, their FBI background check came back, uh, negative, you know, when they were already in the training program. Um, so I, I think part of it is, first off, they, uh, take advantage of the fact that Mexico is a young country, it's a country of young people. Um, we have a, uh, a big group of young people that have little to no opportunities to come up. Uh, when I was in, uh, when I went th- to take that career path, a lot of my friends took the other option. You know, they, they went to work for some of these, uh, criminal groups. Um, so they have this going for them. They basically have a lot of bodies to, to, to, to hire cheaply.

   4. LFLex Fridman36:04

      And leverage, in terms of, uh-... forcing those bodies to do what- whatever is needed, because the alternative for those people is- is nothing.

   5. ECEd Calderon36:12

      There's no options. Yeah. So you have a kid somewhere who is working on a field, you know, or you have a kid like me that was out of the job, out of school, and the only options for me was, uh, this ad in the newspaper, which seemed like a long shot, or going with, uh, some of my friends that had cars now, and, uh, were hanging out all night at these bars, and some of them had, you know, just Draco AK-47, uh, pistols in their cars, and it looked cool, you know.

   6. LFLex Fridman36:41

      So there is a trajectory... There's many trajectories possible in your life where you could have been still operating in a- a criminal organization in Mexico?

   7. ECEd Calderon36:51

      Yeah. I mean, it's, there's not a lot of options, you know.

   8. LFLex Fridman36:54

      Do you think you'd be good at it?

   9. ECEd Calderon36:56

      I- I don't know. I mean, I'm pretty good at what I do now, which is teaching people how to detect it and kind of fight against it, you know? So I think, uh ...

   10. LFLex Fridman37:03

       I have a sense that that... the skills transfer pretty well. That's also the dark side of this whole thing.

   11. ECEd Calderon37:10

       A lot of the people that I used to work with, you know, I- I know things and I have some training, and I had some specialized training, and I- I currently do... I- I've done, you know, presentations for the Secret Service and the FBI, and you name it, I've gone there and shown them what I do. A lot of my fr- a lot of the people that I used to work with who are out of the job are in the wind, you know, and some of these people are way more trained than I am, you know? Uh, it's interesting what it, the- the reason why I get s- I get looked for and they ask me questions is because I actually have the experience, that my university was the most dangerous city on the planet, and when people ask me about some of that stuff, I- I could speak from experience as far as encountering some of that directly. Some of the people that I used to work with who were way better at it than I am are in the wind. Uh, interesting thing in Mexico, if you are of a police organization and you get fired or you quit, you are ineligible to join another police organization. That- that discounts you. So for somebody like me who was a professional operations group member or police officer in Mexico of that region, there's no options for me out- outside of that. So they- they themselves basically have created this inescapable box where some of these people that go into that line of work. And where do they go after? You know, I've heard offers of $12,000 to join, uh, some of these organizations out there, plus, you know, they get benefits not unlike the government, you know. I'm still waiting for my liquidatio- my- my- my liquidation check. This is, uh, been out of it, out of service for like six, seven years. I'm still waiting for my check. Uh, so some of these people, uh, it's obvious that the opportunities are presented to them out there are stronger, you know. And again, the youth is what gets eaten by this war, and that's one of the main things that they start with, just the youth. We had a phenomenon in Tijuana early- early ni- uh, late '90s, early 2000s called the Narco Juniors. Narco Juniors were basically bored middle e- middle- middle fa- middle, uh, middle class or upper-class families, had kids that were bored, and they just joined some of these cartel groups. Uh, these cartel groups saw in them opportunities to get into regular industry, to go through the family businesses, to kind of establish themselves, use some of those businesses to sto- for storage or figure out how to use some of their transportation businesses for drug muling. So this is how they start in getting into different areas, you know, that they regularly couldn't. And, you know, that's how it starts, you know. You owe somebody, uh, they get into paid ex- paid protection, uh, type schemes, which are also common all- all over Mexico, and, uh, sooner or later, they start owning businesses, and they regulate some of their income, so they become part of the, uh, part of the, part of the local economy in a big way. I had this experience in Sinaloa where we were driving down this shitty street, and all of a sudden it became a cool, nice, you know, little curvy high- like highway type thing, and I looked around there, it's like, "This is a nice road." And the guy who was with me said, "Yeah, the cartels built it." (laughs) You know? Um, you go to some of these towns, and the cartels are the government there. They build the hospitals, they build the churches, they build the schools. COVID happens, they're enforcing the mask mandates, you know. They're out enforcing- enforcing the mask mandates, the- the- the stay-at-home policies. They're the ones, uh, delivering, uh, supplies to the- to townspeople in bags, you know, courtesy of so-and-so cartel, you know? So they- they- they become the- the Robin Hood characters of their environments. If they're smart, you know, these groups basically turn into that, you know, Robin Hood, you know, stealing from the rich and giving to the poor, or at least that's the projection that they give.

   12. LFLex Fridman41:02

       What's the role of violence in this operation?

   13. ECEd Calderon41:05

       Uh, I mean extreme. Uh, you know, it used to be that there were rules, as you say, like, you know, don't go after kids, don't go after women, but all those things are gone now, you know. They had been gone for, I mean, decades, I think. Uh, the escalation of violence, you know, you kill one of mine, I'll kill four of yours, you kill four of mine, I'll go after your family because you were in hiding. Um, there's stories of, uh, high level cartel people getting their, you know, sons and- and- and daughters, you know, murdered, mutilated, uh, in revenge killings. So I think it's, uh, it's at a point where it's spiraled out of semblance of a rule set as far as who can get exposed to some of this violence. Those highly produced ISIS videos where they show torture and executions, uh, according to some of the sources that I've talked to here in the United States that were looking at that phenomenon, they said that it seems to be that that was influenced by some of the narco blog videos that- that were coming out of Mexico early, in the early 2000s. Basically that some of these groups were the first ones that got wind of the fact that you can...... um, export terror, or the horror that an execution has through social media. Way back when Facebook was a bit more, (laughs) a bit more of a wild land area, you could see these in newsfeeds, uh, videos of executions, tortures, and stuff like that coming out of Mexico.

   14. LFLex Fridman42:32

       On Facebook?

   15. ECEd Calderon42:34

       Way back when.

   16. LFLex Fridman42:34

       Wow.

   17. ECEd Calderon42:35

       This was (laughs) a different time. Um-

   18. LFLex Fridman42:38

       For people who criticize social media and the moderation, it's a tough, it's a tough job. It's a brutal world, world out there.

   19. ECEd Calderon42:46

       The, I mean, I remember seeing some of these ISIS videos on, on, on Facebook way back when, and they, you know, they cracked down on all that. But, uh, one that's kind of clear, and I'll see, I'm, I'm not gonna say where to find it, but people out there might have seen it because some of these videos get shared through WhatsApp groups and chat groups out there. Uh, one of the ones that caught my attention way back when was a, a guy getting, two guys getting executed by a chainsaw. Um, and you know, people can kind of think, imagine what that would be like, but uh-

   20. LFLex Fridman43:21

       This is produced on purpose?

   21. ECEd Calderon43:23

       Yes.

   22. LFLex Fridman43:23

       Like it's videotaped on purpose?

   23. ECEd Calderon43:24

       It's a, it's a, it's a cartel group caught two rival cartel members, and a way to send a message to those, uh, the rival cartel is to basically execute these people in front of a camera. Uh, I mean, you can't get to your rivals, but you can, you can make them see what they're doing, or at least make their people look at what happens if you, you know, invade their territory.

   24. LFLex Fridman43:48

       So it's an escalation of brutality in the violence as well?

   25. ECEd Calderon43:51

       I mean, you-

   26. LFLex Fridman43:52

       And that leads to terror, and then sort of mass communication of terror.

   27. ECEd Calderon43:55

       Yeah, I mean, you, you have videos of some of these people engaging in can- cannibalism in front of a video to see how brutal they are, or, uh, people taking out somebody's heart while they're alive, you know, and filming it. And you know, it used to be social media as a whole, you would see some of these videos, they would, they would get put down in, in, in a few days. But now there's, uh, Telegram groups. Uh, there's, uh, you know, there's LiveLeaks. There's a bunch of other, uh, sites out there that kind of disperse some of this, these videos, and it's basically a bulletin board for them as far as, you know, "Hey, you got into my territory. Well, this is what's going to happen to you." Right?

   28. LFLex Fridman44:34

       Is there a game theoretic way to, uh, remove this kind of brutality, to deescalate the brutality? 'Cause it seems like if a cartel takes power that exceeds the power of politicians in, in a locality, there's a strong incentive to reduce the brutality, to, uh, to crack down on this kind of chainsaw executions.

   29. ECEd Calderon44:57

       You know, uh, there was a recent leak of, uh, government, uh, files. They call 'em the Guacamaya leaks. It's, uh, our version of the, of Wikileaks, I guess. And it was, uh, mostly, uh, documents coming out of the Mexican military. Uh, I haven't seen it talked about a lot here in, uh, stateside, but it's a pretty big thing down in Mexico. And in some of those documents, it reveals how powerless the government is, I mean, as far as the military goes. So that's another player in Mexico, the military. Uh, the military has been out in the, in force in the streets basically doing a policing role since Felipe Calderon was, uh, was administration. He basically militarized the drug war. Um, Felipe Calderon was at the, uh, uh, to the right of the political spectrum, and his main rival, who was way to the left, is now in power. And one of the campaign promises he had was to demilitarize the, the drug war, to send the military back to its barracks and all that, and he's basically continuing on. They just passed the, uh, some legislation that basically, uh, keeps the military on the streets for a few more, few more years, you know. Um, and I think some of these documents that were leaked, uh, are very telling as far as why that is. Uh, they have... The military now has a vast amount of power when it comes to security, industry. I mean, they're in charge of building airports and train lines in Mexico now. Um, their documents themselves show how certain regions, uh, in Mexico who have a specific military, uh, presence work for one side or favor one side of the cartel over the other.

   30. LFLex Fridman46:40

       So they're corrupted too. So there's these military forces that are in part corrupted.
4. 50:02 – 1:07:13

   El Chapo

   1. ECEd Calderon50:02

   2. LFLex Fridman50:02

      Who was El Chapo?

   3. ECEd Calderon50:03

      El Chapo was a part of the leadership, or at least a faction of the leadership in- in the cartel. It's a federation of different, uh, of small organizations. Well, I'd say small organizations, basically families or organizations that, uh, conf- can conform this larger group, which is the- the Sinaloa Cartel that is based out of Sinaloa. Basically, uh, they are people that, uh, have a family and power nucleus is there in Sinaloa. I mean, who was he? I think he was a- he was a high-level operator for the Sinaloa Cartel. He, um, he had his own drug routes, his own, uh, networks. His family is, uh, his family, uh, nucleus down there is still in control of some of those operations. So his arrest really didn't change anything. Um, but he wasn't the mastermind number one leader that I think the media and the government kind of portrayed him as, you know?

   4. LFLex Fridman50:56

      Who was the mastermind?

   5. ECEd Calderon50:58

      If you go down there and you read, uh, what most of the, uh, brave journalists in Mexico that we have, uh, say... Another aspect of this war is that a lot of journalists get killed. I think Mexico has a, I think has some of the top numbers in the world. This is no- no secret to anybody, El Mayo Zambada is- is the name of the- the historical figurehead of this cartel, or at least somebody who people theorize or suspect to be the, uh, the- the main guy or the main person that is in charge of some of- of this criminal group as well.

   6. LFLex Fridman51:33

      Is he still alive?

   7. ECEd Calderon51:34

      That's the going rumor, that he's still very much alive. The interesting thing about him is that he learned his craft in Los Angeles. So people thinking that Sinaloa Cartel isn't a Mexican thing, it's actually... Uh, he- he apparently learned a lot of his craft from, uh, people in the United States, you know?

   8. LFLex Fridman51:52

      And that's the craft of leadership, the craft of business, the craft... Which- which aspect of the craft?

   9. ECEd Calderon51:56

      The craft of getting a product from Colombia, putting it through Mexico and then-

   10. LFLex Fridman52:01

       Oh, the logistics.

   11. ECEd Calderon52:02

       The logistics part of it. Yeah.

   12. LFLex Fridman52:06

       And he somehow is, uh, operating in the shadows, so he's not a known entity.

   13. ECEd Calderon52:13

       I don't have a clear number of this, but he was interviewed by a magazine called Proceso in Mexico, and some pictures were taken of him. This was over 10 years ago probably, and that's the last time anybody's ever seen a picture of him.

   14. LFLex Fridman52:25

       What's it like to be a journalist in that? So, uh, can- can a journalist have a conversation with him and live?

   15. ECEd Calderon52:31

       Not unless he asks to- to have that conversation. I think he- he reached out to this journalist to talk about it. Um, there's a- there's a media wing, uh, to the work that we do, a sister page called Demoler! And- and it's, uh, run by some pretty good people. And the way we met is that I was basically training them how to work in hostile environments, and they were like, "Oh, we're gonna go report on cartel activity in Mexico." And I was like, (sighs) you know, that is... A year and a half ago, a reporter went to the president's daily briefing, uh, press conference that he has. They call them las mañaneras, presidenta and the president, Manuel- Manuel Lopez Obrador, and told him to his face like, "Uh, I have threats on my life, they're trying to kill me." And it happened. There's been a slew of assassinations and murders of members of the press all over Mexico. It's not an easy job. Uh, either they say too much or they say things that favor one side or the other, which is another aspect of it that is interesting. I don't- I don't consider myself a reporter. I don't report on the news in Mexico. I have friends that do that very well. I commentate on some of it only. Uh, but you see a lot of these, uh, cartel reporters go down there, talk to a specific side and basically speak one side of the story, and that is not something that the other side wants, you know? If you- if you go down there and speak to one side, you're saying what they want people to know or hear. So in a way, you're kind of spreading some of their cartel propaganda in a way. And that's how some people, you know, get shot.

   16. LFLex Fridman54:12

       Do you think it's possible to go in there and have a conversation?...with a cartel leader-

   17. ECEd Calderon54:20

       Well, the Sean Penn-

   18. LFLex Fridman54:20

       ...or somebody like me, or somebody like Sean Penn?

   19. ECEd Calderon54:23

       This is what I will say. Uh, after, after that whole Sean Penn thing, I think a lot of people would reconsider a meeting with anybody of any level that has any notoriety here in the United States. They don't, they wouldn't trust anybody to get that close. Um, there are people out there that will talk to reporters, you know, people that are working on a, on a lab- laboratory somewhere in a hillside, somewhere down, down south, you know, in the Sierra. Uh, you know, low-level people that get authorization to speak to reports and stuff like that, but they don't say anything that isn't being taught or s- or shown in their various different ways. There are outlets out there for them. I mean, some of these guys have Instagram accounts, you know? Some of these guys had blog about it, you know?

   20. LFLex Fridman55:00

       But not the leaders.

   21. ECEd Calderon55:01

       TikTok, no, not the leaders. I think after what happened to, to El Chapo Guzman, I think that, that, uh, that opportunity or that window was closed, uh, for, for some of the leadership down there.

   22. LFLex Fridman55:13

       I think I disagree. I think, uh, they're just more sensitive, th- uh, realizing that there has to be a deep trust. It's not just anybody, and not any high-profile... I've gotten a chance to speak to some very high-profile leaders that don't speak to journalists, and they understand the value of trust.

   23. ECEd Calderon55:33

       If they have something to say, which I don't think they do, you know? I don't think they... At le- unless at some point in the future, which is something I suspect might, might be coming, that there is some sort of armed intervention and/or external attack on some of these criminal groups that really puts the pressure on them.

   24. LFLex Fridman55:55

       You don't think there's a, a human aspect to this, of a human being wanting their story to be known versus-

   25. ECEd Calderon56:03

       Yeah.

   26. LFLex Fridman56:04

       ...versus, this is different than the propaganda machine of "I have something to say. I have some message to put out there to play the game of politics and power and money," and all that kind of stuff. Isn't there also a human being underneath all that armor that for, for the sake of perhaps ego, legacy, wants to be understood?

   27. ECEd Calderon56:26

       I think in a way, they already do that. Uh, there's coridos, which are basically Mexican folk songs that get, uh, that get, uh, sung about some of them. So, in a way, some of these, some of these singers are reporting on some of their lives, and it's like, uh, it's a great honor to have a corido made about you, you know? I, somebody, somebody made a corido about me based on my interviews, right?

   28. LFLex Fridman56:46

       (laughs) Yes.

   29. ECEd Calderon56:46

       I didn't pay for it, so it's a real one.

   30. LFLex Fridman56:48

       Yeah.
5. 1:07:13 – 1:19:19

   Weapons

   1. ECEd Calderon1:07:14

      The money, fast and furious, and guns being basically let walk down into Mexico. People that don't know, basically, the ATF had this operation where they were looking at straw purchasers of firearms. Basically, people buying up specific type of firearms that were on a shopping list that the cartels wanted to buy, including, uh, you know, 50 cals, um, FN5-7 pistols, which are small pistols with a high velocity round that will go through a bulletproof vest. Um, AR-15s of all kinds, uh, that could quickly be modified into full auto down in Mexico with a, with a drilling a few holes and making a few things, uh, to them. So, these people were buying all these, the ATF was watching them and allowing them to walk those firearms into Mexico under the guise of trying to track them somehow, which doesn't make a lot of sense for most people to kind of look at that operation. The only people who found, uh, the only reason people found out about it was because of the murder of a few federal agents, uh, US federal agents that were killed with those guns. One of my friends was shot with one of those pistols outside of his house, and they shot him and they shot her- her- his wife. Uh, both of them were killed. Daughter was in the back seat, lost, uh, part of her arm. When that happened, the guns were unique. They were like, oh, we didn't ever ... Like the matapolicias is what they call them, they're the cop killers. I hadn't seen those before, so they were unique and interesting, and later on in life, I was watching (laughs) CNN and seeing the hearings going on, I was like, "Oh, that's where they came from." Uh, two federal agents changed a lot and it was politicized, there was a whole scandal up here. But in Mexico, how many people died with those, uh, firearms, you know, being let down, being let go down there? And also, what type of sentiment do you think the local populous has of the United States after all those guns were basically handed over to some of these groups? You know, gun trafficking is another giant part of the equation and part of the problem down there, as far as, uh, as far as the amount of munitions, uh, weapons, and now we're also getting, um, tradecraft material from conflict zones outside of Mexico. So, weaponized drones. The first time we saw, uh, some of those weaponized drones was, uh, in Syria, and like, like, a few weeks later, you know, grenades were being dropped, uh, on the roofs of some, uh, public officials, uh, uh, building.

   2. LFLex Fridman1:09:44

      The cartels are using drones?

   3. ECEd Calderon1:09:47

      Yeah, that's been going on for a while. There's a place in Michoacan that has some pretty interesting videos, and the, the interesting part of it is because the federal police down there are actually working hand in hand with a United Carteles Unidos group, which is basically the local cartels, to try and fight off the new generation cartel moving into Michoacan. So, even the, the federal forces are fighting with the cartels to try and keep this larger cartel out, and there's videos of these, uh, civilian drones basically dropping explosives. Uh, they found some explosive testing ranges out there that are basically replicating stuff that you would see the IRA use during the con- when, during the troubles out there, from homemade mortars. Um, you know, IEDs have been used in Mexico, that, not that much, but they're, they're making, like, a presence again. You know, we don't have a lot of ordinance around like Iraq, but we do have a big mining industry down there. So, mining, mining explosives of all kinds are pretty easy to get. So, you start seeing that, and also, I mean, there's some exotic weaponry coming in from the south now, and from the ocean, uh, that some of it is probably, uh, US, uh, military equipment sold to various South American governments that are now not as stable as they were and they're kind of making their way into black markets. So, a lot of those, uh, 50 cal and vehicle-mounted technical-type machine guns and some of the RPGs and man pads or remote control guided missiles that you, that have been found in cartel hands are probably come, making their way up from down south.

   4. LFLex Fridman1:11:21

      Do you get these, like, multimillion dollar systems, like the Highmar system in the, in the Ukraine? You get, like, super sophisticated advanced technology or whatnot.

   5. ECEd Calderon1:11:29

      So-

   6. LFLex Fridman1:11:29

      So, like, this is, like, military grade. I'm not sure what the application would be exactly (laughs) in the Mexican drug war.

   7. ECEd Calderon1:11:35

      Some of the sophistic- some of the sophisticated stuff I see are man pads, which is basically remote guided missiles.

   8. LFLex Fridman1:11:40

      Yeah.

   9. ECEd Calderon1:11:40

      I've, I've seen some of those found down there.

   10. LFLex Fridman1:11:42

       What is the application exactly? A display of power?

   11. ECEd Calderon1:11:46

       There are no-fly zones over parts of Mexico.

   12. LFLex Fridman1:11:50

       For this reason?

   13. ECEd Calderon1:11:51

       The new generation cartel took down a helicopter. There's been incidents of military helicopters falling from the sky, and it, it, they- they said that it was mechanical issues. But again, I'm not, I'm not a gonna con- do conspiracy theories out there, uh, but there's, there's a lot of videos on TikTok of, uh, Sinaloa cartel forces at parties, you know, carrying around, uh, rocket launchers on their backs and, you know, so-

   14. LFLex Fridman1:12:20

       So, there's an increased probability of mechanical failures over those areas when you're flying a (laughs) helicopter?

   15. ECEd Calderon1:12:26

       Yeah. There's no-fly zones over some parts of Mexico.

   16. LFLex Fridman1:12:28

       Okay. (laughs)

   17. ECEd Calderon1:12:29

       And, uh-

   18. LFLex Fridman1:12:30

       Oh, man.

   19. ECEd Calderon1:12:31

       ... another thing you're seeing now is night vision, uh, night vision equipment, uh, that is clearly military grade from the US that was probably abandoned in some war field out there, so maybe Afghanistan or somewhere like that, and it's, uh, it's being found in safe houses and in the hands of cartel forces. You wanna talk about a scary opponent, somebody wearing night vision-... with a suppressed firearm. Those types of capabilities are now out there. Also, there's this, uh, tendency to think, uh, and every now and then you'll see these cartel videos with these guys carrying around these .50 cals, and they show, t- stand there like, "Yeah." You know, the boasting about their rifles, and everybody laughed at them, because a .50 cal or anything like that without a optic on it, you know, is like you're gonna shoot, you pray and shoot, basically, see if you can hit anything with it. Uh, but now, there's a, a few of my sources have seen, you know, sophisticated, uh, laser-guided, uh, range finders and, and sighting systems on some of these that are being found out there.

   20. LFLex Fridman1:13:33

       How much damage can .50 cal ... what, what was the application?

   21. ECEd Calderon1:13:36

       They started getting them specifically with the proliferation of armored vehicles in Mexico. Mexico has a giant industry in armored vehicles, as far as ...

   22. LFLex Fridman1:13:43

       So, so there's a race in terms of, uh, armoring, like protecting, especially high value targets, and then weapons that can deal with those armored protected high value targets?

   23. ECEd Calderon1:13:56

       There was an, uh, attempted assassination of a state prosecutor somewhere in, I think, central Mexico. I forget exactly where. But she was, uh, riding around in an up-armored, uh, Jeep, uh, Cherokee, I think it was, and their main means of, of, uh, firepower was .50 cals, and that car was left in pieces. She survived in it, so I think the, uh, armored vehicle company that, uh, sold her that vehicle has it at, in the display room. Uh, then before my time, probably two, three years before I was actually active, they tried to kill the, uh, head of public security in, in, in the state of Baja. And with him, it was a grenade launcher, 40-millimeter grenade launcher. It, uh, it skipped off the ve- the armored vehicle and landed in the, the car behind it, made the back explode. Uh, one of the guys that I used to work with, uh, was actually in that car. He survived it. Um, but you started to see, oh, they're, you know, using armored vehicles now, so let's get .50 caliber, uh, now to try and defeat that armor. Uh, so yeah, there's, there's, there's always this, uh, this race of technology basically down there. Armored vehicles, you know, how to take out an armored vehicle, well, there's a few ways. .50 cals, you know, if you can mount them in a right way and shoot at a car like that, or a bunch of kids with balloons and, uh, acrylic paint on the front windshield and blind the vehicle so it doesn't ... so they can't drive it anymore is another way. (laughs) Um, a tow line across a road, painted like the, painted, painted black so you can't see it, and cut the thing in half. Again, I'm not saying any secrets. These are things that people seen out there. Uh, shoot at the radiator, you know. Uh, some of these radiators are not, uh, even the more sophisticated, uh, vehicles out there don't have a sufficient, uh, armoring around the radiator or the battery housing of some of these vehicles. There was a case of a guy, I think his nickname was El Pela Vacas or something like that, out in Sinaloa, cartel guy. He had an armored vehicle. He was, you know, riding around, and he got ambushed. They shot at his car. He goes like, "Ah, I have armor. You can't shoot me." And somebody went up to his car and just put the barrel right in the locking mechanism, and that got him, you know. So it's an interesting place as far as people, uh, getting certain types of guns. Armor is prolific down there. I mean, everybody down there, all the cartel- cartel members, you'll see them wearing plate armor. So that's an issue. It's not like you can shoot somebody square in the chest and they'll go down.

   24. LFLex Fridman1:16:28

       Are they afraid to kill Americans? So I know, I was traveling in Ukraine, uh, on the front. So, like, a lot of the journalists would travel in, like, armored vehicles, and at first, I was like, "It seems like this would attract attention."

   25. ECEd Calderon1:16:42

       Yeah.

   26. LFLex Fridman1:16:42

       Like, it seems like they would want to hit those targets. But then, then I realized over time, as I learned, there's a, there's a fear of killing Americans. There could be a drastic escalation of-

   27. ECEd Calderon1:16:54

       Yeah, it's not worth it.

   28. LFLex Fridman1:16:55

       ... of conflict if someone were to-

   29. ECEd Calderon1:16:55

       It's kicking a beehive. Yeah.

   30. LFLex Fridman1:16:57

       Yeah.
6. 1:19:19 – 1:28:05

   Assassinations

   1. LFLex Fridman1:19:19

      So you also, one of the main things you did is, uh, you did se- security, tried to protect in this, in this war, try to protect people, high-value people.

   2. ECEd Calderon1:19:27

      Yeah.

   3. LFLex Fridman1:19:28

      How do you do, you and others, how is it possible to protect a high-value target like a celebrity or an important politician in this situation?

   4. ECEd Calderon1:19:36

      So I was, uh, I was tasked to protect the- the governor of Baja and his family.

   5. LFLex Fridman1:19:42

      Mm-hmm.

   6. ECEd Calderon1:19:43

      I was basically replacing a whole contingency of people that were already there that turned out to be corrupted. That wasn't my f- f- field. I was operational, I was working with other people doing the counter-narcotics stuff, and, uh, the director of the institution that I was in basically called me and said, "Hey, uh, you're gonna go and replace us as these people." And like, "What happened to them?" Well... (laughs)

   7. LFLex Fridman1:20:06

      So you were known as a person that could be kind of trusted.

   8. ECEd Calderon1:20:09

      I was tasked for that, so I- I think they considered that, and, uh, and I- I specifically worked for a governor named, uh, Jose Guadalupe Osuna Millan, uh, who was probably one of the best governors we have had in that state. And if people wanna see if I'm trustworthy or not, they can ask him directly, and I- I still speak to some members of his family and we're still, you know, friends in that way.

   9. LFLex Fridman1:20:33

      Is protecting people, like, technically a difficult problem to solve?

   10. ECEd Calderon1:20:37

       It is. Uh, for my experience in that time and- and place, he was basically spearheading, you know, counter, the drug war in Baja when he was in power. So he had threats from all over. Not only him, but his family. First thing I realized working that job in Mexico is that, uh, we had, we had people coming in to do specialized training of that regard. Israelis, you know, teaching us how they would do things in Israel. That didn't make a lot of sense for us in Mexico, you know. Uh, we had people that had some Secret Service experience kind of show us how, showing us how they would do like celebrity, uh, bodyguarding or bodyguarding somebody maybe in California, of that nature. Didn't make sense for us. Then we got to experience some cross-training with, um, uh, NSW, Naval- Naval Special Warfare people who were coming off, uh, protection details in Afghanistan and Iraq.

Episode duration: 4:05:20