Eric Weinstein: Difficult Conversations, Freedom of Speech, and Physics | Lex Fridman Podcast #163

1. 0:00 – 1:29

   Introduction

   1. LFLex Fridman0:00

      The following is a conversation with Eric Weinstein. His fourth time on the podcast. Both sadness and hope run through his heart and his mind, and the result is a complicated, brilliant human being who I am fortunate to call a friend. Quick mention of our sponsors. Indeed hiring site, Theragun muscle recovery device, Wine Access online wine store, and Blinkist app that summarizes books. Click the sponsor links to get a discount and to support this podcast. As a side note, let me ask that whenever we touch difficult topics in this or other conversations, that you listen with an open mind and forgive me or the guest for a misstep in an imperfectly thought out statement. To have any chance of truth, I think we have to take risks and make mistakes in conversation, and then learn from those mistakes. Please try not to close your mind and heart to others because of a single sentence or an expression of an idea. Try to assume that the people in this conversation, or just people in general, are good but not perfect and far from it, but always striving to add a bit more love into the world in whatever way we know how. If you enjoy this thing, subscribe on YouTube, review it on Apple Podcasts, follow on Spotify, support it on Patreon, or connect with me on Twitter @lexfriedman. And now here's my conversation with Eric Weinstein.

2. 1:29 – 5:14

   Aliens and physics

   1. LFLex Fridman1:29

      You often talk about getting off this planet, and I think you don't often talk about extraterrestrial life, intelligent life out there. Do you wonder about this kind of thing, about intelligent civilizations out there?

   2. EWEric Weinstein1:45

      I do, but I try to not wonder about it in a particular way. Um, in a- in a certain sense I do find that speculating about Bigfoot and the Loch Ness Monster and space aliens is kind of a recreation for when things aren't going very well. Uh, at least it gives us some meaning and purpose in our lives. So I worry about, you know, for example, the simulation hypothesis is taking over from religion. You can't quite believe enough to go to church or synagogue or the mosque on the weekend, so then you just take up an interest in, uh, in simulation theory because that's something like what you do for your job coding. I do think that in some sense the issue of aliens is a really interesting one but has been spoiled by too much sort of recreational escapism. The key question that I find is let's assume that it is possible to look out at the night sky and see all of these distant worlds and then go visit them. If that is possible, it's almost certainly possible through some, uh, as yet un- unknown or not accepted theory of physics beyond Einstein. And I mean, it doesn't have to be that way, but probably is. If that theory exists, there would be a percentage of the worlds that have life in sort of a Drake equation kind of a way that would have encountered the ability to escape, uh, soon enough after unlocking the power of the atom at a minimum and whatever they have that is probably analogous to the cell, uh, o- on that world. So assuming that life is a fairly generic thing that arises, uh, probably not carbon based, probably doesn't have DNA, but that something that fits the pattern of, uh, Darwinian theory which is descent with variation, um, differential success.

   3. LFLex Fridman3:45

      And thereby constantly improving and so on then that there through time there will be a trajectory where w-, there'll be something increasingly complex and fascinating and beautiful like us humans, but much more.

   4. EWEric Weinstein3:56

      That can also off-gas whatever entropy it creates to give an illusion that you're defeating, uh, thermodynamics, right? So whatever, whatever these things are probably has an analog of the bilipid layer so that cells can get rid of the chaos on one side of the barrier and keep order on the other. Whatever these things are that create life, assuming that there is a theory to be found that allows that civilization to diversify, um, we would have to imagine that such a civilization might have taken an interest in its concept of the universe and have come here.

   5. LFLex Fridman4:32

      They would come here. They would have a deep understanding of the physics of the universe sufficient to have arrived here.

   6. EWEric Weinstein4:40

      Well, there's two questions. Whether they could arrive physically and whether their information could be sent here, and whether they could gain information from us. It's possible that, um, they would have a way of looking into our world without actually reaching it, I don't know, but yes, i- if my hope, which is that we can escape this world, is- can be realized if that's- if that's feasible, then you would have to imagine that the r- reverse is true and that somebody else, uh, should be here.

3. 5:14 – 6:59

   Breaking the frame of conversation

   1. EWEric Weinstein5:15

      First of all, I- I wanna say this. My purpose when I come on to your show and I reframe the questions is not to challenge you. I can sit inside all of those. It's to give you better audio and video because I think we've been on a- an incredible roll. I really love what you do, and so I am trying to honor you by being as disagreeable about frame breaking as possible. I think some of your listeners don't understand that it's actually a sign of respect as opposed to some sort of a complex dynamic, which is, I think you can play outside of some of the frames and that these are sort of offerings to get the-

   2. LFLex Fridman5:48

      Mm-hmm.

   3. EWEric Weinstein5:48

      ... conversation started, so let me try to break that frame and give you something different.

   4. LFLex Fridman5:52

      Beautiful.

   5. EWEric Weinstein5:54

      I- I think what's going on here is that, um, I can prove effectively that we're not thinking about this in very deep terms. As soon as I say we've gotta get off this planet, the number of people who assume that I'm talking about faster than light travel-... is very high, and faster than light travel as- assumes some sort of Einsteinian paradigm that then is broken-

   6. LFLex Fridman6:18

      Mm-hmm.

   7. EWEric Weinstein6:19

      ... um, by some small adjustment, and I think that that's fascinating. It shows me that our failure to imagine what could be being said is profound. We don't have an idea, um, of all of the difference, different ways in which we might be able to visit distant worlds. Um, all we think about is, okay, it must be, it must be Einsteinian space times, and then some means of exceeding the speed limit. And it's just, it's fascinating to me that we don't really have ... uh, we- we- we've lost the ability to just realize we don't know the framework,

4. 6:59 – 13:10

   Time travel across multiple dimensions

   1. EWEric Weinstein6:59

      and what does, what does it even mean? So, one of the things I think about a lot is worlds with more than one temporal dimension. It's very hard to think about one, more than one temporal dimension.

   2. LFLex Fridman7:10

      So th- that's a really strong mental exercise of breaking the framework in which we think 'cause, uh, most of the frameworks would have a single temporal dimension, right?

   3. EWEric Weinstein7:21

      Well, s- first of all, m- most of the frameworks in which we think would have no temporal dimension.

   4. LFLex Fridman7:25

      Right.

   5. EWEric Weinstein7:25

      It would have pure ... Like in mathematics, the differential geometry-

   6. LFLex Fridman7:28

      Yeah.

   7. EWEric Weinstein7:28

      ... that Riemann came up with in the 1800s, we don't usually talk about, um, what we would call split signature metrics, uh, or Lorentzian signature. In fact, if it weren't for relativity, this would be the most obscure topic out there. Almost all the work we do is in Euclidean signature, and then there's this one freakish case of relativity theory in physics that uses this s- one time and the rest spatial dimensions. Fascinating.

   8. LFLex Fridman7:57

      So, it's usually momentary and just looking at space?

   9. EWEric Weinstein8:01

      Yes. Y- you know, we have these three kinds of, uh, equations that are very important to us. We have elliptic, hyperbolic, and parabolic, right? And so the idea is if, if I'm, um, chewing gum after eating garlic bread, uh, w- when I open my mouth and then I've got chewing gum between my lips, maybe it's gonna form an el- an elliptic object called the minimal surface. Then when I pop that and blow through it, you're gonna hear a noise that's gonna travel to you by a wave equation, which is gonna be hyperbolic. But then the garlic breath is gonna diffuse towards you, and you're eventually gonna be very upset with me-

   10. LFLex Fridman8:40

       Mm-hmm.

   11. EWEric Weinstein8:41

       ... according to a heat equation, which will be parabolic. So, those are the three basic paradigms for most of the work that we do, and a lot of the work that we do in, in mathematics is elliptic, whereas the physicists are in the hyperbolic case. And I don't even know what to do about more than one temporal dimension because I think almost no one studies them.

   12. LFLex Fridman9:00

       I can't believe you just captured, uh, much of modern physics in the example of chewing gum.

   13. EWEric Weinstein9:05

       Well, I have an off-color one which I chose not to share, but hopefully the kids at home, uh-

   14. LFLex Fridman9:10

       Can imagine? (laughs)

   15. EWEric Weinstein9:12

       (laughs)

   16. LFLex Fridman9:12

       Okay, so b- okay, (laughs) th- that is the place where we come from. Now, if we want to arrive at a possibility of breaking the frameworks at with two versus zero temporal dimensions, how do we even begin to think about that?

   17. EWEric Weinstein9:27

       Well, let's think about it as you and I getting together in New York City, okay? So, if you tell me, uh, "Eric, I wanna meet you in New York City. Go to the corner of, uh, I don't know, 34th Street and Third Avenue, and, and you'll find a building on the northwest corner, and go up to the 17th floor," right? So, what do we have? Third Avenue, that's one coordinate, 34th Street, that's a second coordinate, and go up to the 17th. "And what time is it?" Oh, 12:00 noon. All right, well, now imagine that we traded the ability to get up to a particular height in a building, and it's all flat land, but th- I- I'm gonna give you two temporal coordinates, so meet me at 5:00 PM and 12:00 noon at the corner of 34th and Third. That gets to be too mind-blowing. I've got two separate watches.

   18. LFLex Fridman10:17

       And presumably, that's just specifying a single point in those two different dimensions, but then being able to travel along those dimensions, so-

   19. EWEric Weinstein10:25

       Let's l- let me see your right hand. You have no watch on that.

   20. LFLex Fridman10:30

       No.

   21. EWEric Weinstein10:31

       Okay. I'm very concerned, Lex, that you're going through life without a wristwatch.

   22. LFLex Fridman10:35

       (laughs)

   23. EWEric Weinstein10:36

       That is my favorite and most valued wristwatch. I want you to wear it.

   24. LFLex Fridman10:40

       This guy is funnier than basically any human on earth.

   25. EWEric Weinstein10:45

       (laughs)

   26. LFLex Fridman10:45

       (laughs)

   27. EWEric Weinstein10:45

       Lex, th- that has been in my family for months.

   28. LFLex Fridman10:48

       (laughs)

   29. EWEric Weinstein10:49

       It's a Fitbit. Now, what I want you to understand is Lex Fridman is now in a position to live in two spatial and two temporal dimensions, unlike the rest of us. I clearly am only fit for four, four spatial dimensions-

   30. LFLex Fridman11:04

       Yeah.
5. 13:10 – 19:33

   Is the government in possession of alien spacecraft?

   1. EWEric Weinstein13:10

   2. LFLex Fridman13:10

      Is there some version of the alien conversation that could incorporate the breaking of frameworks?

   3. EWEric Weinstein13:15

      Well, I think so. I mean, the key question would be, uh, we've had the Pentagon release, uh, multiple videos of strange UFOs that undermined a lot of us. I just think that's also really fascinating to talk about, the fact that those of us who were trained to call BS on all of this stuff just had the rug pulled out from under us by the Pentagon choosing to do this. And you know what the effect of that is? You've opened the door for every stupid theory known to man. My aunt saw a ghost. Okay, now we're gonna have to listen to, "Well, hey, the Pentagon used to deny it, then it turned out there were UFOs, dude." Whoever is in charge of lying to the public, they need a cost function that incorporates the damage in trust, because I held this line that this was all garbage and all BS. Now I don't know what to think.

   4. LFLex Fridman14:09

      There's a fascinating aspect to this alien discussion and the breaking of frameworks that involves the release of videos from the Pentagon, which is almost like another dimension that trusts in itself, or the nature of truth and information is a kind of dimension along which we're traveling constantly, that is, is, uh, messing with my head to think about. Because I mean, do you... (laughs) Like, because it almost feels like you need to incorporate that into your study of the nature of reality, is like the constant shifting of the notation, the tools we use to communicate that reality. And so like, what am I supposed to think about these videos? Is it, is it a complete distraction? Is it a kind of cosmic joke?

   5. EWEric Weinstein14:53

      I don't know, but you know what? I'm tired of these people, just completely tired of these people.

   6. LFLex Fridman14:56

      The gu- the people, on the Pentagon side, or the people who are interpreting this stuff on the Pentagon side? The entirety of-

   7. EWEric Weinstein15:02

      I'm tired of, I'm tired of the authorities playing games with what we can know. The fact that you and I don't... Do you have a security clearance?

   8. LFLex Fridman15:11

      Uh, some level of it for, because I was working for DARPA for a while.

   9. EWEric Weinstein15:15

      I don't have a security clearance. You know, I, I am going to release whatever theory I have. And my guess is, is that there is zero interest from our own government. Um, and so the Chinese will find out about it the same time our government does. Because Lord knows what they do in these buildings. I, I watch crazy people walk, walk in and out of the intelligence community, walk in and out of DARPA. And I think, "Wow, you're talking to that person? That's really fascinating to me." We don't seem to have a clue as to who might have the ball.

   10. LFLex Fridman15:49

       Complete lack of transparency. Do you think it's possible there is, the government is in possession of something deeply fundamental to our understanding of the world that they're not releasing? So this is one, one things is, this is one of the famous distractions that people play with, the narrative...

   11. EWEric Weinstein16:07

       Assume that if that were true.

   12. LFLex Fridman16:08

       ... of alien life forms, uh, spacecraft in possession, that the government is in possession of alien space craft.

   13. EWEric Weinstein16:15

       Assume that if that were true.

   14. LFLex Fridman16:15

       That's the popular narrative, yeah.

   15. EWEric Weinstein16:17

       I don't think the government really exists at the moment. I believe, and this is not an idea that was original to me, there was a guy named Michael Teitelbaum who used to be at the Sloan Foundation. And at some point, I pointed out that the US government had completely contradictory objectives when it came to the military and science. And one, one branch said this, one branch said that. I said, "You know, I don't understand. What, which is true? What does the government want?" He said, "You think there's a government?" And I said, "What do you mean?" He said, "What makes you think that the people in those two offices have ever coordinated? What is it that allows each office to have a coherent plan with respect to every other office?" And that was when I first started to understand that there are periods where the government coheres, and then there are periods where the coherence just decays. And I think that that's been going on since 1945. That there have been a few places where there's been increased coherence, but in general, everything is just getting less and less coherent. And that what war did was focus us on the need to have a government, a people, a mission, capacity, technology, commitment, ideology. And then as soon as that was gone, um, you know, different people, those who had been through World War II had one set of beliefs. Those born in the 1950s, uh, you know, or late '40s, by the time they got to Woodstock, uh, they didn't buy any of that.

   16. LFLex Fridman17:39

       So coherence is the, is it the complete opposite of like, like par- of bureaucracy, being paralyzed by bureaucracy? So coherence is efficient, functional government? Because when you say there's no government, meaning there's no, uh, emergent function from a collection of individuals, it's just a bunch of individuals stuck in their offices without any kind of efficient communication with each other on a single mission. And so a, a government that is truly at the epitome of what a government is supposed to be is when a bunch of people working together in the same mission.

   17. EWEric Weinstein18:16

       What are we about? Are we about freedom? Are we about growth?...are we about decency and fairness? Uh, are we about the absence of a national culture so that we can all just do our own thing? I've called this thing the USA-N, the United States of Absolutely Nothing. Uh, these are all different visions for our country.

   18. LFLex Fridman18:35

       So, it's possible that there's a alien spacecraft somewhere, and there's, uh, like 20 people that know about it, and then they're kind of ... And like, as you communicate further and further into the offices, that information dissipates. It gets distorted in some kind of way, and then it's completely lost. The power, the possibility of that information is lost.

   19. EWEric Weinstein18:55

       We bought a house, and I had this idea that I wanted to find out what all the switches did. And I quickly found out that your house doesn't keep updating its plans. As people do modifications, they just do the modifications, and they don't actually record why they were doing what they were doing, or what things lead to ... So there are all sorts of bizarre ... Like, there's a switch in my house that says "privacy." (laughs)

   20. LFLex Fridman19:18

       (laughs)

   21. EWEric Weinstein19:18

       I don't know what privacy is. Does it turn on an electromagnetic field that-

   22. LFLex Fridman19:22

       (laughs)

   23. EWEric Weinstein19:22

       ... or is ... Does some lead shielding go-

   24. LFLex Fridman19:25

       Yes.

   25. EWEric Weinstein19:25

       ... over the house? Um, that's what we have. We have a system in which the people who've inherited these structures have no idea why their grandparents

6. 19:33 – 30:52

   Freedom of speech

   1. EWEric Weinstein19:33

      built them.

   2. LFLex Fridman19:34

      It'd be funny if there was a freedom of speech switch-

   3. EWEric Weinstein19:37

      (laughs)

   4. LFLex Fridman19:37

      ... that you could also control. (laughs) Then there'd be a perfect metaphor-

   5. EWEric Weinstein19:39

      Well, that's different-

   6. LFLex Fridman19:40

      ... for our current state of things.

   7. EWEric Weinstein19:41

      ... because w- what they figured out is, is that if they can just make sure that we don't have, uh, any public options for communication, then hey, ev- every pri- every, uh, thing that we say to each other goes to a private company. Private companies can do whatever they want. And this is like one of the greatest moves that we didn't really notice. Uh, electronic and digital speech makes every other kind of speech irrelevant. And because there is no public option, uh, guess what? There's always somebody named Sundar or Jack or Mark who controls (laughs) whether or not you can speak, and what it appears to be that is being said, and who, whose stuff is weighted more highly than other. It's an absolute nightmare. And by the way, the Silicon Valley intellectual elite, Lord knows what is going on. People are so busy making money that they are not actually upholding any of the values. So Silicon Valley is sort of maximally against ... It, it has this kind of libertarian, uh, free, progressive sheen to it when it goes to Burning Man, and then it quickly just imposes rules on all of the rest of us as to what we can say to each other if we're not part of the inner elite.

   8. LFLex Fridman20:51

      So what do you think the ideal of the freedom of speech means?

   9. EWEric Weinstein20:55

      Well, this is very interesting. I keep getting lectured on social media by people who have no idea how much power the Supreme Court has to abstract things.

   10. LFLex Fridman21:04

       Mm-hmm.

   11. EWEric Weinstein21:04

       Right now, you have a concept of the letter of the law and the spirit of the law. And the spirit of the law would have to say that our speech that matters is free, at least at the level of ideas. I don't claim that I have the right to endanger your life with speech or to reveal your private information. So I really am not opining about directed speech intended to smear you and ... That, that's a different kettle of fish, and maybe I have some rights to do that, but I don't think that they're infinite. Um, what I am saying is, is that the sp- freedom of speech for ideas is essential that the court abstract it and shove it down the throat of Google, Facebook, Twitter, Amazon, whoever these infrastructure companies are, because it really matters which abstraction you use. The, the, the case that I really like is search and seizure. If I have private data that I entered in my house that is stored on a server that you hold outside of my house-

   12. LFLex Fridman22:06

       Mm-hmm.

   13. EWEric Weinstein22:06

       ... um, but I view the abs- ... Is the abstraction that it's only the perimeter of my house that I have the right to protect? Or does my password extend the perimeter of my house to the data on the server that is located outside of my house? These are court ... Are choices for the court, and the court is supposed to pretend that they can divine the true intent of the framers. But all of the sort of ... And I, I've taken to calling this the problem of internet hyenas, people with ready-made answers and LOLs and "You're such a moron." These folks love to remind you, "It's a private company, dude. It can do whatever it wants."

   14. LFLex Fridman22:44

       Mm-hmm.

   15. EWEric Weinstein22:44

       No. The court has to figure out what the abstractions are. In just the way, for example, the Griswold decision, um, found that there was a penumbra because there was too little in the Constitution, therefore there were all sorts of things implied that couldn't be in the document. Somebody needs to come up with the abstraction right now that says, uh, Jack cannot do whatever he wants.

   16. LFLex Fridman23:09

       It's really ... So you say the courts, but it's also us, uh, people who think about the world, so you-

   17. EWEric Weinstein23:15

       No, no, no. It's the courts.

   18. LFLex Fridman23:17

       But-

   19. EWEric Weinstein23:17

       If the courts don't do this-

   20. LFLex Fridman23:18

       Mm-hmm.

   21. EWEric Weinstein23:19

       ... we're toast.

   22. LFLex Fridman23:20

       But we could still think about it. I mean, uh, uh, uh, uh-

   23. EWEric Weinstein23:23

       Sure.

   24. LFLex Fridman23:23

       ... I, I-

   25. EWEric Weinstein23:23

       But I don't feel like going down the drain.

   26. LFLex Fridman23:25

       Here's what I'm thinking about y- 'cause it's tricky how far it should extend. I mean, that's a ongoing conversation. Don't you think the interpretation of the law?

   27. EWEric Weinstein23:34

       I think I'm trying to say something very simple.

   28. LFLex Fridman23:36

       Mm-hmm.

   29. EWEric Weinstein23:36

       And it's just not gonna be popular for a while. Tech dwarfs previous forms of communication. Print or shouting in a public park. And so, you know, I, I can go to a public park and I can shout, if I get a permit. Even there, I think it was in the nine- late 1980s in Atlanta, we came up with free speech zones where you c- can't protest at a convention, but you can go to a park 23 miles out. And they'll, they'll fence off a little area where you can have your free speech.

   30. LFLex Fridman24:05

       Yeah.
7. 30:52 – 32:09

   Elon Musk

   1. EWEric Weinstein30:52

      These institutions have been so compromised for so long, uh, you've probably never seen an adult. Sometimes I think Elon looks like an adult. I know that he, he has a wild lifestyle, but I also (laughs) see him looking like an adult.

   2. LFLex Fridman31:07

      What does an adult look like exactly?

   3. EWEric Weinstein31:09

      Oh, you know, somebody who weighs things, speaks carefully, thinks about the future beyond their own life s- lifespan. Uh, somebody who has a pretty good idea of how to get things done, isn't wildly caught up in punitive actions, is more focused on breaking new ground than playing rent-seeking games.

   4. LFLex Fridman31:28

      Mm-hmm.

   5. EWEric Weinstein31:29

      I mean, I really had a positive ... I was so completely chaste (laughs) when Elon Musk ended up as the world's richest person. It was like, "Well, that's interesting. Back to work."

   6. LFLex Fridman31:39

      (laughs)

   7. EWEric Weinstein31:39

      It was just like, that's what, that's what it is, a grown-up-

   8. LFLex Fridman31:41

      That's what an adult would do, yeah.

   9. EWEric Weinstein31:42

      That's what it, that's what a grown-up would do, and it just made ... You know, e- e- weirdly, I said something about, "Isn't it amazing that the world's richest person knows what a Lagrangian is?" And you made a terrible Lagrange joke about potentials.

   10. LFLex Fridman31:53

       (laughs)

   11. EWEric Weinstein31:54

       But yeah, I mean, I do think that ultimately, Elon may be one of the closest things we have to an adult, and I can tell you that the internet hyenas will immediately descend as to what a fraudster he is for pumping his stock price, talking his book and all this stuff. Shut up.

8. 32:09 – 35:29

   Idealism of every era

   1. EWEric Weinstein32:09

   2. LFLex Fridman32:09

      So s- looking at the world seriously and You're saying that the people who are running tech companies, or running the mediums on which we can exercise the ideal of free speech, are not adults?

   3. EWEric Weinstein32:24

      I think not. I think first of all, a lot of them are Silicon Valley utopian, uh, uh, businessmen, where you talk a utopian line and you use it. You, you've heard my, my take, which is that, uh, the idealism of every era is the cover story of its greatest thefts. And I believe that in many ways, the idealism of Silicon Valley about connecting the world, a world of abundance, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera, is really about the, uh, software eating the world, as Marc Andreessen likes to say, that there were all these legacy properties, and by simply being a bad tech version of, uh, something that previously existed, like a newspaper, you could immediately start to dwarf that by aggregating newspapers and their digital versions, because digital is so much more powerful. As a result, yes, we have lots of, uh, manchildren, um, wandering around, uh, what once (laughs) was the Bay Area and is now Austin and Miami and other places, um, maybe Singapore, that, um, all of these people that, you know, these are friends of ours, and they're brilliant with respect to a certain amount of stuff, but none of them can get off the drip. It's amazing that none of them have F-U money. We've got billionaires who don't have F-U money.

   4. LFLex Fridman33:39

      Okay. I think the argument used by Jack Dorsey was that there was an incitement of violence, and not just Jack Dorsey, but everybody, uh, that was banning people, and then this word violence was used as a kind of, uh, just like extremism and so on to, uh, without much reason behind it. You think it's impossible for Jack Dorsey or anybody else to be, as you said, an adult, a grown-up, and reason-

   5. EWEric Weinstein34:06

      Well, Jack is pretty close to being a grown-up.

   6. LFLex Fridman34:07

      It seems like he is.

   7. EWEric Weinstein34:08

      Yeah.

   8. LFLex Fridman34:09

      He's o- he's, as you've-

   9. EWEric Weinstein34:10

      But he's under pressures-

   10. LFLex Fridman34:11

       As you've discussed, he's, it seems that he's been on the verge of almost being quite-

   11. EWEric Weinstein34:17

       I don't-

   12. LFLex Fridman34:17

       ... serious and transparent and real with people.

   13. EWEric Weinstein34:19

       I don't know where the Jack Dorsey that I met went, and I worry that that must be something behind the scenes that I can't see.

   14. LFLex Fridman34:29

       Uh, from my perspective, what I think is the stress, the burden of that, when people are screaming at you, is, uh-

   15. EWEric Weinstein34:37

       No, Jack-

   16. LFLex Fridman34:37

       ... is overwhelming.

   17. EWEric Weinstein34:38

       Jack, Jack is a zen monk.

   18. LFLex Fridman34:39

       (laughs)

   19. EWEric Weinstein34:40

       He really is.

   20. LFLex Fridman34:41

       Yeah.

   21. EWEric Weinstein34:42

       Jack is an incredibly impressive person intellectually, morally, spiritually, at least for a couple of meetings. I don't know him very well, but I'm very impressed by the person I met, and I don't know where that person is, and that terrifies me.

   22. LFLex Fridman35:02

       But do you think somebody could step up in that way?

   23. EWEric Weinstein35:04

       No.

   24. LFLex Fridman35:04

       Uh, you, so it, does, can, does a human being have the capacity to be transparent about the reasoning behind the banning, or do you think all banning eventually, uh, all banning of people from mediums of communication is eventually destructive, or it's impossible for human beings to reason with ourselves about it?

   25. EWEric Weinstein35:28

       Well, let, let's,

9. 35:29 – 41:05

   Non-locality of free speech in the Internet age

   1. EWEric Weinstein35:29

      let's see what the problem is. So my phone has been on airplane mode. I'm gonna unlock it, and I'm gonna take a picture of Lex Fridman. Now, if I can, I'm gonna tweet that picture out.

   2. LFLex Fridman35:43

      Great.

   3. EWEric Weinstein35:43

      But here's the weird part about it.

   4. LFLex Fridman35:45

      Yeah.

   5. EWEric Weinstein35:46

      Um, that picture, "Sitting with-"

   6. LFLex Fridman35:52

      (laughs)

   7. EWEric Weinstein35:53

      "... Lex today."

   8. LFLex Fridman35:55

      Th- th- this, ladies and gentlemen, is how the sausage is made.

   9. EWEric Weinstein35:58

      Okay. In so doing-

   10. LFLex Fridman36:00

       Yes.

   11. EWEric Weinstein36:02

       ... I have just sent, um, a picture of you and a tiny piece of text all over the planet that has arrived at, if statistics tell the truth, just under half a million different accounts.

   12. LFLex Fridman36:17

       Mm-hmm. And then more from sharing and so on.

   13. EWEric Weinstein36:21

       And we have, well, but some of those accounts are dead. We don't really know how many places it went.

   14. LFLex Fridman36:25

       Yeah.

   15. EWEric Weinstein36:27

       But the key issue with that tweet is that that is a non-local phenomenon.

   16. LFLex Fridman36:34

       Yes.

   17. EWEric Weinstein36:35

       So I just ...... broadcasted to an entire planet. Somebody in Uganda is reading that at the same time as somebody in Uruguay.

   18. LFLex Fridman36:44

       Yeah.

   19. EWEric Weinstein36:46

       There is no known solution to have so many people with the ability to communicate non-locally, because locality was part of the implicit nature of speech inside of the Constitution, friction, locality. There were all sorts of other aspects to speech. So if you think about speech as a bundle ...

   20. LFLex Fridman37:07

       Mm-hmm. I like this. (laughs)

   21. EWEric Weinstein37:10

       ... then it got unbundled. And some of those aspects that we were naturally counting on to retard, uh, the impact of speech aren't present. And we don't have the courage to say, "I wonder if the First Amendment really applies in the modern era in the same way, or we have to work through an abstraction." Either we probably have to amend the Constitution or we have to abstract it properly. And that issue is not something we're facing up to. I watch us constantly look backwards.

   22. LFLex Fridman37:46

       Yeah.

   23. EWEric Weinstein37:46

       We don't seem to c- try to come up with new ideas and new theories. Nobody really imagines that we're going to be able to wisely amend the Constitution anymore in the inside of the United States. Many people, uh, abroad will say, "Why are these guys talking about the US? It's a US-centric program." Well, that's because nobody knows where this program lives. The fact, by the way, that you and I happen to be in a physical place together-

   24. LFLex Fridman38:08

       Mm.

   25. EWEric Weinstein38:08

       ... is also bizarre. It could be anywhere. It doesn't really matter that it happens to be here. So the difference between logical, between physical, local, non-local, frictional, non-frictional. It's the same thing with, uh, firearms. Uh, nobody imagined that the Gatling gun, uh, was gonna be present when you had to reload a musket.

   26. LFLex Fridman38:29

       And ... That's fascinating to think about. I mean, you, you, you're exactly right that the nature of this particular freedom that seems so foundational to the, to this nation, to what made this nation great and perhaps m- much of the world that is great made it great is changing completely. Can we try to reason through how the ideal free speech is to be changed? I mean, uh, I guess I'm struggling. It feels really wrong, perhaps because I wasn't paying attention to it, it feels really wrong to ban Donald Trump, uh, from Twitter, to, to ban not just the president. That's really wrong to me, but this particular human for being, uh, divisive. But then wh- when there's an incitement of violence, th- that is an overused claim, but perhaps there was, uh, actual, uh, brewing of local violence happening. So one of the things I know was happening on Parler is people were, uh, scheduling meetings together in physical space. So you're now going, going back from this dynamic social large-scale, people from Uganda, people from all over the world being able to communicate. You're now mapping that into now back meeting in the physical space that is, uh, similar to what the founding of this nation was But if the violence- ... according-

   27. EWEric Weinstein39:59

       ... were digital, if ransomware suddenly was unleashed, um-

   28. LFLex Fridman40:04

       True. True.

   29. EWEric Weinstein40:05

       ... the key issue is the abstractions.

   30. LFLex Fridman40:07

       True.
10. 41:05 – 43:00

    Glenn Beck

    1. EWEric Weinstein41:05

    2. LFLex Fridman41:06

       You've, uh, recently been on, uh, Glenn Beck's program.

    3. EWEric Weinstein41:08

       Yeah.

    4. LFLex Fridman41:09

       And there was this kind of, one of the things you've talked about is being able to have this conversation. We ... I don't know if you would put it as a type of conversation that was happening outside the mainstream media, but a conversation that reaches across different worldviews.

    5. EWEric Weinstein41:27

       You're right.

    6. LFLex Fridman41:28

       And having a nuanced, or just like a respectful conversation that's grounded in mutual human respect.

    7. EWEric Weinstein41:35

       But we can't have the reality because the main model is, is, um, the center, both left and right is in the process of stealing all the wealth that we built up. And they've organized the extremes, uh, into two LARPing teams that I've called Magastan and Wokistan. And then you have-

    8. LFLex Fridman41:54

       (laughs)

    9. EWEric Weinstein41:54

       ... everybody who isn't part of that complex, all seven of us, the number of us who are able to earn a living looking at all of these mad people playing this game. You know, th- th- they, there's a phrase inside finance when the investment banks are trying to look at price action and somebody says, "This doesn't make any sense." And somebody will say, "It's just the locals stealing from each other." And that's really what we have. We have, we've got the leaders of Magastan and Wokistan, uh, you know, championing these two tr- teams as sponsored by the center because it's a distraction while they steal all the silver and c- cut the paintings out of the frames. That's what we, you and I are looking at. So when you ask me like, "Do you have any ideas about the abstraction for free speech?"

    10. LFLex Fridman42:37

        Mm-hmm.

    11. EWEric Weinstein42:39

        I've never met Mark Zuckerberg. I've never met Sundar Pichai. I never met Larry Page. I was once in a room with Sergey Brin. I've never spoken to Elon Musk. I hang out with Peter Thiel, but ... We have a very deep relationship, but I don't really speak to m- that many other people at, you know, sort of at this level.

11. 43:00 – 47:44

    Joe Rogan

    1. EWEric Weinstein43:00

       We're not having any kind of smart conversation nash- at a national level. In fact, it's almost as if we've destroyed every sandbox (laughs) in which we could play together. There's no place that we actually talk except long form podcasting. And by the way, they've found ... You see what was going on with, like, Alex Stamos-

    2. LFLex Fridman43:23

       No.

    3. EWEric Weinstein43:23

       ... and the Hoover Institution? We've ... You know, there's a loophole left.

    4. LFLex Fridman43:28

       Oh, for-

    5. EWEric Weinstein43:28

       Long form podcasting allows people to speak at levels above daytime CNN. (laughs)

    6. LFLex Fridman43:33

       Yeah.

    7. EWEric Weinstein43:34

       It's like, well, why do you think they're not watching daytime CNN?

    8. LFLex Fridman43:39

       But, you know, that's, that's just silly journalism. They, uh, currently have no power to displace podcasting. That's why it's so powerful, RSS feed. I mean, that's why the big challenge with Joe Rogan and Spotify is, like, there's this dance that's fascinating to see, is Joe Rogan's now part of the system, and then he's also uncancelable, and there's this tension that's happening.

    9. EWEric Weinstein44:03

       Well, think about what happened-

    10. LFLex Fridman44:03

        It's fascinating.

    11. EWEric Weinstein44:04

        ... to Howard Stern though. Howard Stern became much less relevant. So, if they can't control Joe by bringing him in-house-

    12. LFLex Fridman44:12

        Mm-hmm.

    13. EWEric Weinstein44:13

        ... the key question is, is he going to continue ... Like, you know, 'cause Joe says this thing about F U money.

    14. LFLex Fridman44:20

        Yeah.

    15. EWEric Weinstein44:22

        Joe's one of the only people with F U money who's actually said, "F you."

    16. LFLex Fridman44:27

        Yeah. Yeah.

    17. EWEric Weinstein44:28

        I don't understand this. I don't have F U money.

    18. LFLex Fridman44:32

        What, what exactly is ... Can, can we break apart-

    19. EWEric Weinstein44:35

        Sure.

    20. LFLex Fridman44:35

        ... F U money?

    21. EWEric Weinstein44:36

        Yeah.

    22. LFLex Fridman44:36

        Because I always thought ... I've been fortunate enough to have, always have F U money in the sense that my standards were so low that a basic salary in the United States-

    23. EWEric Weinstein44:49

        Well, this is the Stoic point, which is that-

    24. LFLex Fridman44:50

        Yeah.

    25. EWEric Weinstein44:50

        ... if you can live on rice and beans-

    26. LFLex Fridman44:52

        Right.

    27. EWEric Weinstein44:53

        ... you're uncancelable because you're always rich relative to your needs set.

    28. LFLex Fridman44:56

        Right. Isn't that F U fundamental, F U money? Why do you say that tech billionaires don't have F U money?

    29. EWEric Weinstein45:01

        When you need to hire private security to protect your family, how do you protect your two children?

    30. LFLex Fridman45:07

        I don't have those yet.
12. 47:44 – 49:16

    Freedom and fear

    1. LFLex Fridman47:44

       I wanna talk to you about freedom here in the context of something you've mentioned, which ... One way to take away freedom is to put a human being into a cage, is to create constraints. The other one that worries me is something that I think you've spoken to, to Twitter a little bit, on Twitter, is we bleed freedom by kind of slowly, uh, scaring you into not doing ... not expressing the full spectrum of opportunities you can as freedom. So like, when you banned Donald Trump-

    2. EWEric Weinstein48:22

       Hmm.

    3. LFLex Fridman48:24

       ... when you, uh, banned P- uh, Parler, you give a little doubt in the minds of millions, like me, a person who's a tech person, who's an entre- entrepreneur. There's a little ... That's what I'm afraid of when I look in the mirror. Is there now a little doubt in there-

    4. EWEric Weinstein48:40

       Sure.

    5. LFLex Fridman48:41

       ... that, that limits the amount of options I will try?

    6. EWEric Weinstein48:43

       How certain are you that the ...... COVID virus didn't come from the Wuhan lab, and is biosafety level 4. We both know that we're both supposed to robotically say, "The idea that the COVID virus came from a lab is a discredited conspiracy theory. There is no evidence to suggest that this is true. The World Health Organization and the CDC have both opined this. To say otherwise would be incredibly irresponsible."

    7. LFLex Fridman49:09

       And the threat of that-

    8. EWEric Weinstein49:11

       Yeah.

    9. LFLex Fridman49:11

       ... is the thing that ultimately limits the, the freedoms

13. 49:16 – 52:56

    Jeffrey Epstein

    1. LFLex Fridman49:16

       we feel?

    2. EWEric Weinstein49:16

       I should be tweeting about Jeff Epstein all the time.

    3. LFLex Fridman49:20

       And you're afraid-

    4. EWEric Weinstein49:21

       Well, it's also-

    5. LFLex Fridman49:22

       ... in a sense-

    6. EWEric Weinstein49:23

       ... boring. I mean, I said it in the public-

    7. LFLex Fridman49:25

       Yeah, many times.

    8. EWEric Weinstein49:26

       ... why is it we don't ask where the records are from Villard House? Where, where are the financial records? Where are the SEC filings?

    9. LFLex Fridman49:33

       Yeah.

    10. EWEric Weinstein49:33

        Where are the questions on, on the record to the intelligence, uh, agencies, was he known to be part of the intelligence community?

    11. LFLex Fridman49:42

        So the-

    12. EWEric Weinstein49:42

        So we're, we're not interested in asking questions. Like, am I gonna die as a result of asking the question, "Was Jeff Epstein part of the intelligence community of any nation?" Is there a reason we're not asking about the financial records of the supposed hedge fund that he didn't run? Just like the Wuhan lab.

    13. LFLex Fridman50:02

        Okay, how do we get to the core of the Jeffrey Epstein, the, the truth behind Jeffrey Epstein in a sense? I mean, there's, there's some things that are just, like, useless conspiracy theories around it, even if they're true. There's some things that get something-

    14. EWEric Weinstein50:14

        I hate to say it, you're not gonna like it. Look at the 1971 Media Pennsylvania break-in of the Citizens Committee to investigate the FBI. Those kids, and by the way, they weren't all kids, did what had to be done. They broke in, they broke the law, it was an incredible act of civil disobedience, and God bless Judy Feingold for taking to her, she was going to take to her grave that she'd (laughs) been part of this, like, the coolest thing of all time. They didn't say anything for forever.

    15. LFLex Fridman50:47

        So civil disobedience, I mean, you have to-

    16. EWEric Weinstein50:50

        We are founded on civil disobedience. Civil disobedience is incredibly... You screw it up and you're just a vandal. You screw it up, you're a hooligan.

    17. LFLex Fridman51:01

        Yeah.

    18. EWEric Weinstein51:02

        Those, those cats were so disciplined.

    19. LFLex Fridman51:06

        It's an art form and it's-

    20. EWEric Weinstein51:07

        It was an art form-

    21. LFLex Fridman51:08

        ... in a sense.

    22. EWEric Weinstein51:08

        ... and they risked everything. They were willing to pay with their freedom. Those are the sorts of people who earned the right by putting themselves at risk. I would not do this. I am not volunteering to break into anything. I think it was, um, W- William Davidon, who was a student of Murray Gell-Mann and a physics professor at Haverford, who corralled these people and led this effort. And right now, what we need is somebody to blow the lid off of what is controlling everything. We have... I, I'm happy to hear that it's a system of incentive structures, that it's a system of selective pressures. I'm happy to find out that it's emergent. I'm happy to find that it's partially directed by our own intelligence community. I'm happy to hear that, uh, in fact, we've been penetrated by North Korea, Iran, China, and Russia. But I need to know why people aren't... Like, the, the firebombing of the courthouse in Portland, Oregon has no explanation. And, and somehow this is normal? This is not normal to any human being. We have video that people don't believe. And, you know, I, I come back to the Shaggy defense of, "It wasn't me."

    23. LFLex Fridman52:24

        (laughs)

    24. EWEric Weinstein52:24

        You know? So it's like, um... You, you remember that song?

    25. LFLex Fridman52:30

        Shaggy, yeah. Well, it wasn't me, caught you, uh-

    26. EWEric Weinstein52:32

        Caught you on the counter-

    27. LFLex Fridman52:33

        ... banging in the shower, on the counter.

    28. EWEric Weinstein52:35

        (laughs) Yeah, exactly.

    29. LFLex Fridman52:35

        (laughs)

    30. EWEric Weinstein52:36

        It wasn't me.
14. 52:56 – 58:32

    Aaron Swartz

    1. LFLex Fridman52:56

       you've sp- spoken about him before. I think it'd be nice to maybe honor him, to break it apart a little bit.

    2. EWEric Weinstein53:02

       Who?

    3. LFLex Fridman53:02

       Aaron Swartz.

    4. EWEric Weinstein53:03

       Yeah.

    5. LFLex Fridman53:03

       Uh, why was he a special human being in this, uh, ilk of what we're talking about now, civil disobedience, um? How do we honor him now moving forward as human beings who are willing to take risks in this world?

    6. EWEric Weinstein53:19

       Well, I don't know. I mean, d- are you inspired by Aaron Swartz?

    7. LFLex Fridman53:23

       I am. What-

    8. EWEric Weinstein53:24

       How do you feel about JSTOR? Let's talk about JSTOR first. So let's, let's, l- let's say what JSTOR is all about, right?

    9. LFLex Fridman53:31

       Mm-hmm.

    10. EWEric Weinstein53:31

        We the taxpayer pay for research, and then... (laughs)

    11. LFLex Fridman53:38

        (laughs)

    12. EWEric Weinstein53:39

        The people who do the research do all the work for a bunch of companies, who then charge us $30 an article to read what it is that we already paid for, and if we don't cite these articles, uh, we're told that we're in violation. Okay, I almost never call for civil disobedience because I don't really wanna t-

    13. LFLex Fridman53:59

        Yeah.

    14. EWEric Weinstein53:59

        But fuck JSTOR-

    15. LFLex Fridman54:03

        Yeah.

    16. EWEric Weinstein54:03

        ... fuck Elsevier, fuck Springer. Who the fuck are these people?

    17. LFLex Fridman54:07

        Yeah.

    18. EWEric Weinstein54:09

        Get... The smart people need to take the greedy people behind the woodshed and explain to them what science is. I have a very old-fashioned idea that's so out of favor that, uh, I will immediately be seen as a knuckle dragger.

    19. LFLex Fridman54:26

        Yeah.

    20. EWEric Weinstein54:27

        I believe in the great woman theory of history and the great man theory of history. Emmy Noether is fantastic.

    21. LFLex Fridman54:33

        Mm-hmm.

    22. EWEric Weinstein54:34

        Um, as an example. And I believe in editors over peer reviewers, and I believe that wrong things should be allowed into the literature, and I believe that the gatekeeping should go towards zero, because the costs, uh, associated with distribution are very, very slight. I believe that, um...We should be looking at the perverse incentives of sending your paper blindly into your competitor's clutches, particularly if you're a young person being reviewed by an older person. Uh, are you familiar with the, the Droit du seigneur?

    23. LFLex Fridman55:11

        No.

    24. EWEric Weinstein55:11

        Are you familiar with the legend of the Magnaia? (laughs) No. The Magnaia is the miller's daughter, and the largest food fight in the entire universe, I believe, is held, I think, in Italy. Uh, it's called the Battle of the Oranges.

    25. LFLex Fridman55:27

        Oh-

    26. EWEric Weinstein55:27

        And it celebrates the miller's daughter who had fallen in love with her beloved, and when it came time for them to marry, uh, the virginal Magnaia was, in fact, uh, told that the lord, uh, of the land had the right to have the first night with the bride.

    27. LFLex Fridman55:48

        Mm-hmm.

    28. EWEric Weinstein55:48

        Well, the Magnaia had a different idea, so she seemed to consent to this, uh, perhaps mythical right, also called the, the prima notte, the first night.

    29. LFLex Fridman55:58

        Mm-hmm.

    30. EWEric Weinstein55:59

        And by, by legend, she concealed a dagger underneath her robes, and when it came time for the h- the hated lord of the manor to extract, uh, this right, uh, she pulled the knife out and killed him. And I think it also echoes a little bit a particularly wonderful scene from Game of Thrones, uh, but that inspired both men and women, and the Magnaia is the legendary hero. Um, right now, what we need to do is we need to resist the prima notte, the right of first look, right?
15. 58:32 – 1:18:07

    Jeffrey Epstein and Geometric Unity

    1. EWEric Weinstein58:32

       Do you, do you know that the first person outside, um, of me to get a look at geometric unity was Jeffrey Epstein? How did he know I was working on this? I don't know.

    2. LFLex Fridman58:46

       So your ideas that formed geometric unity was something that, uh, his eyes had seen?

    3. EWEric Weinstein58:52

       I was pushed to talk to Jeffrey Epstein as one of the only people who could help me. No, no, no listen to this.

    4. LFLex Fridman59:00

       H- how does this... yeah, how does this connect?

    5. EWEric Weinstein59:01

       Okay, well, first of all, my old synagogue, my old shul was the Conservative Minyan at Harvard Hillel, and I believe it's called Rosovsky Hall after Henry Rosovsky in the economics department, who was a Japan scholar, if I'm correct. And he became provost or dean of Harvard. I believe that that was built with Jeffrey Epstein's money, and I wondered, in part, whether the Jewish students at Harvard all sort of passed through a bottleneck of Harvard Hillel. So that was something I found very curious, but I don't know much about it. I also found that Jeffrey Epstein hanging around scientists, I don't think that either you or Joe exactly, I mean, got me correct, uh, in your-

    6. LFLex Fridman59:50

       Well-

    7. EWEric Weinstein59:50

       ... last interchange.

    8. LFLex Fridman59:52

       Uh, for the record, for people who di- haven't listened to the Joe Rogan program, Joe has claimed that Eric Weinstein was the only person who has gotten laid in the-

    9. EWEric Weinstein59:58

       Paid.

    10. LFLex Fridman1:00:00

        Oh. Paid.

    11. EWEric Weinstein1:00:01

        And you said you also got paid as a young man, right?

    12. LFLex Fridman1:00:05

        (laughs) I believe the word was "laid," but, uh, allegedly-

    13. EWEric Weinstein1:00:08

        My hearing isn't so good at age 55.

    14. LFLex Fridman1:00:10

        Yeah.

    15. EWEric Weinstein1:00:10

        All right, leaving that aside.

    16. LFLex Fridman1:00:12

        Yes.

    17. EWEric Weinstein1:00:13

        Um, what was Jeffrey Epstein doing hanging around all of these scientists? I don't think that was the same program that was about compromising political leaders and businesspeople and entertainment figures. I think these are two different programs that were being run through one individual, and Joe seemed to think that I didn't think he was smooth. I thought he was glib. I think what Joe was really trying to get at is, is that I found his mysticism meretricious. He had a, an ability to deflect every conversation that might go towards revealing that he didn't know what he was talking about. Every time you started to get close to something where the rubber hit the road, the rubber wouldn't hit the road.

    18. LFLex Fridman1:00:58

        And yet, can you help me untangle-

    19. EWEric Weinstein1:01:00

        Sure.

    20. LFLex Fridman1:01:00

        ... the, the fact that you thought deeply about the physics of the nature of our universe, and Jeffrey Epstein was interested?

    21. EWEric Weinstein1:01:13

        How did he know? I wasn't really talking about this stuff until ... You know, even my close friends didn't really know what I was up to.

    22. LFLex Fridman1:01:22

        And yet you're saying he, he did not have sufficient brilliance to understand when the rubber hit the road. So, why, why did he have sufficient interest and curiosity?

    23. EWEric Weinstein1:01:32

        I'll tell you what I thought. I had been waiting to find out, does my government even know I exist?

    24. LFLex Fridman1:01:39

        Do you have an answer to that question?

    25. EWEric Weinstein1:01:41

        I have ... A couple times, the government has reached out to me. In general, there is zero interest in me, like less than zero interest. I find that fascinating.

    26. LFLex Fridman1:01:54

        A- as far as you know, right? I mean-

    27. EWEric Weinstein1:01:56

        Well, that's what I'm trying to say. Y- y- the question about not being able to see through a half-silvered mirror, you don't know what's going on-

    28. LFLex Fridman1:02:03

        Mm-hmm.

    29. EWEric Weinstein1:02:03

        ... behind the half-silvered mirror. To you, it's a, it's ... All you see is a, is your reflection.

    30. LFLex Fridman1:02:09

        But your intuition still holds. Like, this is where I've mentioned that I ... Uh, this is where I'll say naive, dumb things, but I still hold onto this intuition that Jeff ... Not, I'm not confident in this, but I, I'm leaned towards that direction that Jeffrey Epstein is the source of evil, not something that's underlying him. That-
16. 1:18:07 – 1:20:09

    Cancel culture

    1. EWEric Weinstein1:18:08

       I don't treat these things li- You know, I had a conversation where Kevin Spacey was at the dinner table when I came down from a hotel room, and I had a very long conversation with Kevin Spacey. I will not detail because I don't do that, uh, as to what we discussed.

    2. LFLex Fridman1:18:23

       Mm-hmm.

    3. EWEric Weinstein1:18:23

       But we talked very specifically about him being canceled, and I don't think that the world has heard that story in part because there is a, uh, a very strong sense that he has to be out-grouped, and as a result-

    4. LFLex Fridman1:18:37

       (laughs)

    5. EWEric Weinstein1:18:37

       ... you know? I mean, do we want d- do we wanna disavow the space program because it touched Wernher von Braun? Do we wanna disavow quantum mechanics because Pascual Jordan and Werner Heisenberg passed through it? Is Ehrenfest theorem false because he murdered his child?

    6. LFLex Fridman1:18:52

       No.

    7. EWEric Weinstein1:18:53

       I mean, at what point do we recognize that we are the problem? Humans are humans, and there is no perfect, there, there is no perfect group of people. Even all of the most oppressed people, the supposed victims of the world who we now have fetishized into thinking that they're all oracles because their lived experience informs us, and their pain is more salient than everyone else's pain, those people aren't necessarily great people.... you know? It's, it's like none of, none of us. We can't-

    8. LFLex Fridman1:19:22

       S-

    9. EWEric Weinstein1:19:22

       ... we can't do this in this fashion.

    10. LFLex Fridman1:19:25

        So when we sit down to have a conversation across the table from somebody, you should be willing to, like you should not have NPR on your mind, you should be willing to take the full risk and to see the good in the person without, with limited information, and to do your best to understand that person?

    11. EWEric Weinstein1:19:44

        Everybody is entitled to a hypocrisy budget. I don't believe this is of institutions.

    12. LFLex Fridman1:19:50

        Yeah.

    13. EWEric Weinstein1:19:50

        Okay? Everybody is entitled to a certain amount of screwing up in life. You're entitled to a mendacity budget, you're en- entitled to an aggression budget. The idea of getting rid-

    14. LFLex Fridman1:20:03

        Beautifully put.

    15. EWEric Weinstein1:20:03

        ... of everybody, (laughs) is, you know, people haven't even blown through their budgets and we're already ...

    16. LFLex Fridman1:20:08

        Yeah.

17. 1:20:09 – 1:29:03

    Alex Jones

    1. LFLex Fridman1:20:09

       I, I think about for example one person, um, I'd be curious to get your thoughts about Alex Jones.

    2. EWEric Weinstein1:20:15

       Let's not talk about Alex Jones for a second, let's talk about the National Enquirer. (laughs)

    3. LFLex Fridman1:20:19

       Uh-huh.

    4. EWEric Weinstein1:20:19

       Is everything the National Enquirer says false?

    5. LFLex Fridman1:20:23

       Uh, no.

    6. EWEric Weinstein1:20:25

       Okay. Do you remember the John Edwards story?

    7. LFLex Fridman1:20:28

       Uh, did he cheat on his wife? Sorry I don't know-

    8. EWEric Weinstein1:20:30

       He had a child from an extramarital affair.

    9. LFLex Fridman1:20:33

       Yes.

    10. EWEric Weinstein1:20:34

        I believe that the National Enquirer broke the story, and then what does the New York Times do? The New York Times I think is allowed to report that (laughs) the National Enquirer's making a claim, that way they don't have to substantiate the story.

    11. LFLex Fridman1:20:48

        Right.

    12. EWEric Weinstein1:20:49

        So why is the New York Times talking to Mike Cernovich or using the National Enquirer as a source? Are they using Alex Jones as a source? Who ... here's the big problem that we're having.

    13. LFLex Fridman1:21:01

        Hm.

    14. EWEric Weinstein1:21:02

        Why are certain people entitled to talk to everybody and other people are entitled to talk to no one? I don't really understand this. This is an indulgent system. This is how the Catholic Church used to do things.

    15. LFLex Fridman1:21:13

        It's hard to fight the system because the reason you don't talk to Alex Jones is because the platforms on which we do the communication will, will de-platform, will remove you.

    16. EWEric Weinstein1:21:21

        Well, but, but I'm not platformed at... I used to, I used to do NPR, and I used to do the News Hour-

    17. LFLex Fridman1:21:27

        Mm-hmm.

    18. EWEric Weinstein1:21:27

        ... and I used to provide stories to Washington Post and New York Times. That has gone away. They've circled the (laughs) wagons closer and closer, and more of us are unacceptable. And right now I have no question that they're going through anybody who has a platform trying to say, "Okay, what do we have against that person in case we need to shut that down?" We have to make a different decision, Lex, and the different decision is that it doesn't matter how many times, uh, Joe said the N-word.

    19. LFLex Fridman1:21:58

        Yeah.

    20. EWEric Weinstein1:21:58

        It doesn't matter that somebody else, you know, like th- with mathematical theorems, if the worst person in the world proves a mathematical theorem, like the Unabomber, we can't undo the theorem.

    21. LFLex Fridman1:22:11

        Yeah.

    22. EWEric Weinstein1:22:12

        You know, and, and I, I point out Charles Manson's song, uh, Look at Your Game, Girl is an amazing song. It's a really good song. I don't think it's one of the greatest songs ever, but it happens that he wasn't a no-talent, and you know, I don't know how Hitler was as an artist.

    23. LFLex Fridman1:22:29

        It's actually not bad.

    24. EWEric Weinstein1:22:30

        Okay. We've gotta get past this. We've gotta get past this idea that we're gonna purge ourselves of our badness and we're just gonna ... it, this is like a, I've-

    25. LFLex Fridman1:22:40

        Yeah.

    26. EWEric Weinstein1:22:40

        ... liken it to teenage girls and cutting, we're just, all we're doing is destroying ourselves in search of perfection, and the answer is no. We're not perfect, we're flawed, we're screwed up, and we've always been this way, and we're not going to silence everyone who you can point a laser beam at and say, "Well that person, look at how bad that person is." If we do that, kiss the whole thing goodbye. We, we might as well just let's learn Chinese.

    27. LFLex Fridman1:23:07

        But there is an art to having those messy conversations w- whether with, with Alex or anybody else, it's-

    28. EWEric Weinstein1:23:13

        Okay, let's talk about Alex.

    29. LFLex Fridman1:23:14

        Yeah.

    30. EWEric Weinstein1:23:15

        There's particular stuff that Alex does that's absolutely nauseating, and there's other stuff that he's doing that's funny.

Episode duration: 2:38:40