Eric Weinstein: Geometric Unity and the Call for New Ideas & Institutions | Lex Fridman Podcast #88

1. 0:00 – 2:08

   Introduction

   1. LFLex Fridman0:00

      The following is a conversation with Eric Weinstein, the second time we've spoken on this podcast. He's a mathematician with a bold and piercing intelligence, unafraid to explore the biggest questions in the universe and shine a light on the darkest corners of our society. He is the host of the Portal Podcast, a part of which he recently released his 2013 Oxford lecture on his theory of geometric unity that is at the center of his lifelong efforts to arrive at a theory of everything that unifies the fundamental laws of physics. This conversation was recorded recently in the time of the coronavirus pandemic. For everyone feeling the medical, psychological, and financial burden of this crisis, I'm sending love your way. Stay strong. We're in this together. We'll beat this thing. This is the Artificial Intelligence Podcast. If you enjoy it, subscribe on YouTube, review it with five stars on Apple Podcasts, support it on Patreon, or simply connect with me on Twitter @LexFridman, spelled F-R-I-D-M-A-N. This show is presented by Cash App, the number one finance app in the App Store. When you get it, use code LEXPODCAST. Cash App lets you send money to friends, buy Bitcoin, and invest in the stock market with as little as $1. Since Cash App does fractional share trading, let me mention that the order execution algorithm that works behind the scenes to create the abstraction of the fractional orders is an algorithmic marvel. So big props to the Cash App engineers for solving a hard problem that in the end provides an easy interface that takes a step up to the next layer of abstraction of the stock market, making trading more accessible to new investors and diversification much easier. So again, if you get Cash App from the App Store or Google Play and use code LEXPODCAST, you get $10 and Cash App will also donate $10 to FIRST, an organization that is helping to advance robotics and STEM education for young people around the world. And now here's my conversation with Eric Weinstein.

2. 2:08 – 14:03

   World War II and the Coronavirus Pandemic

   1. LFLex Fridman2:08

      Do you see a connection between World War II and the crisis we're living through right now?

   2. EWEric Weinstein2:14

      Sure. The need for collective action, reminding ourselves of the fact that all of these abstractions, like, uh, everyone should just do exactly what he or she wants to do for himself and leave everyone else alone. N-none of these abstractions work in a global crisis, and this is just a reminder that we didn't somehow put all that behind us.

   3. LFLex Fridman2:37

      When I hear stories about my grandfather who was in the, in the army, and so the Soviet Union where most people die when you're in the army, there's a brotherhood that happens. There's a love that happens. Do you think that's something we're gonna see here? A sense of community-

   4. EWEric Weinstein2:50

      Well, we're not there. I mean, eh, what the Soviet Union went through, I mean, the enormity of the war on, uh, the Russian doorstep.

   5. LFLex Fridman3:02

      This is different. What we're going through now is not.

   6. EWEric Weinstein3:04

      We can't talk about Stalingrad and COVID in the same breath yet. We're not ready. And the, the sort of p- uh, you know, the sense of like the great patriotic war and the way in which I was very moved by the Soviet custom of newlyweds going and visiting war memorials on their wedding day. Like, the happiest day of your life you have to say thank you to the people who made it possible. We're not there. We're, we're just restarting history. We, eh, you know, I've called this, on the Rogan Program I called it the great nap.

   7. LFLex Fridman3:37

      Yeah.

   8. EWEric Weinstein3:37

      The 75 years with, um, very little by historical standards in, in, in terms of really profound disruptions. And so...

   9. LFLex Fridman3:46

      When you call it the great nap, you mean lack of deep global tragedy.

   10. EWEric Weinstein3:51

       Well, lack of realized global tragedy. So I think that the development, for example, of the hydrogen bomb, you know, was something that happened during the great nap. And that doesn't mean that people who lived during that time didn't feel fear, didn't know anxiety, but it was to say that most of the violent potential of the human species was not realized. It was in the form of potential energy, and this is the thing that I've sort of taken issue with with the description of Steven Pinker's optimism is that if you look at the realized kinetic variables, things have been getting much better for a long time, which is the great nap. But it's not as if, uh, our fragility has not grown, our dependence on electronic systems, our vulnerability to disruption. And so all sorts of things have gotten much better. Other things have gotten much worse, and the destructive potential has skyrocketed.

   11. LFLex Fridman4:47

       Is tragedy the only way we wake up from the big nap?

   12. EWEric Weinstein4:52

       Well, no, you could also have, uh, you know, jubilation about positive things, but it's harder to get people's attention.

   13. LFLex Fridman4:59

       Can you give an example of a big global positive thing-

   14. EWEric Weinstein5:02

       Well, I think-

   15. LFLex Fridman5:03

       ... that could happen?

   16. EWEric Weinstein5:03

       I think that when, for example, just historically speaking, uh, HIV went from being a death sentence to something that people could live with for a very long period of time, it would be great if that had happened on a Wednesday, right? Like all at once, like you knew that things had changed. And so the bleed in somewhat kills the, the sort of the Wednesday effect where it all happens on a particular day at a particular moment. I think if you look at the stock market here, you know, there's a very clear moment where you can see the, the market absorbs the idea of, of the coronavirus. I think that with respect to, um, positives, the Moon landing was the best example of a positive that happened at a particular time or, uh, recapitulating the Soviet-American, uh, link up in terms of, um, Skylab and Soyuz, right? Like that was a huge moment when you actually had these two nations connecting.... uh, in orbit. And so, yeah, there are great moments where something beautiful and wonderful and amazing happens, you know, but i- it's just, there are fewer of them. That's why, that's why as much as I can't imagine proposing to somebody at a sporting event, when you have, like, 30,000 people waiting and, you know, like, "She says yes!"

   17. LFLex Fridman6:23

       (laughs)

   18. EWEric Weinstein6:24

       Y- it's pretty exciting. So, I think that we, we shouldn't, we shouldn't discount that.

   19. LFLex Fridman6:29

       (inhales deeply) So, how bad do you think it's going to get in terms of the global suffering that we're going to experience with this, with this crisis?

   20. EWEric Weinstein6:38

       I can't figure this one out. I'm just not smart enough. Something is going weirdly wrong, and they're almost like two separate storylines. In one storyline, we aren't taking things nearly seriously enough. We see people using food packaging lids as masks who are doctors or nurses. Um, we hear horrible stories about people dying needlessly due to triage, and that's a very terrifying story. On the other hand, there's this other story which says there are tons of ventilators someplace. We've got lots of masks, but they haven't been released. We've got hospital ships where none of the beds are being used, and it's very confusing to me that somehow these two stories give me the feeling that they both must be true simultaneously, and they can't both be true in any kind of standard way.

   21. LFLex Fridman7:36

       What about-

   22. EWEric Weinstein7:36

       And I don't know whether it's, it's just that I'm dumb, but I can't get one or the other story to quiet down. So, I think weirdly this is much more serious than we had understood it, and it's not nearly as serious as some people are making it out to be at the same time and that we're not being given the tools to actually understand, "Oh, here's how to interpret the data," or, "H- here, here the issue with the personal protective equipment is actually a jurisdictional battle or a question of who pays for it rather than a question of whether it's present or absent." I don't understand the details of it, but something is wildly off in our ability to understand where we are.

   23. LFLex Fridman8:13

       So, that's, that's policy. That's institutions. What about do you think about the quiet suffering of millions of people that have lost their job? Is this a temporary thing? I mean, w- what I'm... M- my ear is not to the suffering of those people who have lost their job or the 50% possibly of small businesses that are gonna go bankrupt. Do you think about that quiet suffering-

   24. EWEric Weinstein8:38

       Sure. Well-

   25. LFLex Fridman8:39

       ... and how that might arise itself?

   26. EWEric Weinstein8:41

       ... could be not quiet too. I mean-

   27. LFLex Fridman8:43

       Right, that's the-

   28. EWEric Weinstein8:44

       Could be a depression. This could go from recession to depression, and depression could go to armed conflict and then to war. So, it's not a very, um, abstract causal chain that gets us to the point where we can begin with quiet suffering and, and anxiety and all of these sorts of things and, and people losing their jobs and people dying from stress and all sorts of things. But, um, y- look, anything powerful enough to put us all indoors in a... (exhales sharply) I mean, uh, l- think about this as an incredible experiment. Imagine that you proposed, "Hey, I wanna do a bunch of research. Let's figure out what, what changes in our emissions, emissions profiles for our carbon footprints when we're all indoors, or what happens to traffic patterns, or what happens to the vulnerability of retail sales, uh, as Amazon gets stronger, you know, et cetera, et cetera." I believe that in many of those situations, um, we're running an incredible experiment, and, am I worried for u- us all? Yes. There are some bright spots. One of which is that when you're ordered to stay indoors, people are gonna feel entitled, and the usual thing that people are going to hit when they hear that y- you've lost your job, you know, some... There's this kind of tough, um, t- tough love attitude that you see particularly in the United States like, "Oh, y- you lost your job? Poor baby. Well, go retrain. Get another one." I think there's gonna be a lot less appetite for that, um, because we've been asked to sacrifice, to risk, to act collectively, and that's the interesting thing. What does that reawaken in us? Maybe the idea that we actually are nations and that, y- you know, your fellow countrymen may, may start to mean something to more people. It certainly means something to people in the military, but I wonder how many people who aren't in the military start to think about this as like, "Oh, yeah. We're, we are kind of running separate experiments, and we are not China."

   29. LFLex Fridman10:51

       So, you think this is kind of a period that might be studied for years to come. From my perspective, we are a part of an experiment, but I don't feel like we have access to the full data, the full data of the experiment. We're just like little mice-

   30. EWEric Weinstein11:06

       Yeah.
3. 14:03 – 31:18

   New leaders

   1. EWEric Weinstein14:03

      are you telling me that if the right person stood up and called for us to sacrifice PPE, uh, for our nurses and our d- our, our MDs who are on the front lines that, like, people wouldn't reach down deep in their own supply that they've been, like, stocking and carefully storing and then just say, like, say, "Here, take it." Like, right now, an actual leader would use this time to bring out the heroic character, and I'm gonna just go wildly patriotic 'cause I friggin' love this country. We've got this dormant population in the US that loves leadership and country and pride in our freedom and not being told what to do and we still have this thing that binds us together, and all of the m- the merchants of division just be gone.

   2. LFLex Fridman15:00

      I, I totally agree with you. There's a, I think there is a deep hunger for that leadership. Why hasn't that, why, why hasn't one arisen?

   3. EWEric Weinstein15:08

      Because we don't have the right surgeon general. We have a guy saying, you know, "Come on, guys. Don't buy masks. They don't really work for you. Save them for our healthcare professionals." No. You, you can't do that. You have to say, "You know what? These masks actually do work, and they more work to protect other people from you, but they would work for you. Uh, they'll keep you somewhat safer if you wear them." Here's the deal. You've got somebody who's taking huge amounts of viral load all the time because the patients are shedding. Do you wanna protect that person who's volunteered to be on the front line who's up sleepless nights? Y- y- you just change the message. You stop lying to people.

   4. LFLex Fridman15:46

      But, yeah-

   5. EWEric Weinstein15:46

      You just, you, you level with them. It's like, "It's bad."

   6. LFLex Fridman15:49

      Absolutely. But that's, uh, that's a little bit specific, so you, you have to be just honest about the facts of the situation, yes.

   7. EWEric Weinstein15:56

      Who-

   8. LFLex Fridman15:56

      But I, I think you were referring to something bigger than just that.

   9. EWEric Weinstein15:59

      Yeah.

   10. LFLex Fridman15:59

       This inspiring, like, you know, rewriting the Constitution, (laughs) sort of rethinking how we work as a nation.

   11. EWEric Weinstein16:07

       Yeah, I think you should probably, you know, amend the Constitution once or twice in a lifetime so that it, you don't get this distance from the foundational documents. And, you know, part of the problem is, is that we've got two generations on top that feel very connected to the US, they feel bought in, and we've got three generations below. It, it's a little bit like watching your parents riding the tricycle that they were supposed to pass on to you, and it's like you're now too old to ride a tricycle and they're still whooping it up, ringing the bell with the streamers coming off the handlebars and you're just thinking, "Do you guys never get bored? Do you never pass the torch? Do you really want it..." (laughs) We had five septuagenarians, all born in the '40s, running for president of the United States. When Klobuchar dropped out, the youngest was Warren. We had Warren, Biden, Sanders, Bloomberg, and Trump from, like, 1949 to 1941, all who have been the, the oldest president at an inauguration and nobody's, nobody says, "Grandma and Grandpa, you're embarrassing us."

   12. LFLex Fridman17:11

       (laughs) Except Joe Rogan. Let me put it on you. You have a big platform. You're somewhat of an intelligent, eloquent guy.

   13. EWEric Weinstein17:21

       Oof. (laughs)

   14. LFLex Fridman17:21

       What, what role do you, somewhat-

   15. EWEric Weinstein17:23

       (laughs)

   16. LFLex Fridman17:23

       ... what role d- do you play? Why aren't you that leader? Well, you're, I mean, I would argue that you're, in, in ways, becoming that leader. So-

   17. EWEric Weinstein17:32

       So I haven't taken enough risk? Is that your idea? What should I do or say at the moment?

   18. LFLex Fridman17:38

       No, you're a little bit... No, you have taken quite big risks, and-

   19. EWEric Weinstein17:42

       Yeah.

   20. LFLex Fridman17:42

       ... we'll, we'll talk about it.

   21. EWEric Weinstein17:43

       All right.

   22. LFLex Fridman17:43

       But you're also on the outside sh- shooting in, meaning, um, you're, uh, dismantling the institution from the outside as opposed to becoming-

   23. EWEric Weinstein17:59

       Well-

   24. LFLex Fridman17:59

       ... the institution.

   25. EWEric Weinstein18:00

       Do you remember that thing you brought up when you were on The View?

   26. LFLex Fridman18:04

       The View?

   27. EWEric Weinstein18:05

       I'm sorry, when you were on Oprah?

   28. LFLex Fridman18:08

       I, y- didn't make, I didn't get the invite.

   29. EWEric Weinstein18:09

       I'm sorry. Wh- when you were on Bill Maher's program, what was that thing you were saying?

   30. LFLex Fridman18:15

       (laughs)
4. 31:18 – 34:23

   Hope for our time

   1. LFLex Fridman31:18

      What do you think might be a beautiful thing that comes out of this? Like what, is there a hope that, like a little inkling, a little fire of hope you have about our time right now?

   2. EWEric Weinstein31:31

      Yeah, I think one thing is coming to understand that the freaks, weirdos, mutants, and other, uh, ne'er-do-wells, uh, sometimes referred to as grifters, I like that one, grifters, uh...

   3. LFLex Fridman31:44

      (laughs)

   4. EWEric Weinstein31:45

      ... and gadflies were very often the earliest people on the coronavirus. That's a really interesting question. Why was that? And it seems to be that they had already paid such a social price that they weren't going to be beaten up by being, um, told that, "Oh my God, you're xenophobic. You just hate China." (laughs) You know, or, "Wow, you sound like a conspiracy theorist." Um, so if you'd already paid those prices, you're free to think about this, and everyone in an institutional framework was terrified that they didn't want to be seen as the alarmist, the, um, Chicken Little, and so that's why you have this confidence where, you know, de Blasio says, you know, "Get on with your lives. Get back in there and celebrate Chinese New Year in Chinatown, despite coronavirus." It's like, okay, really? So you just always thought everything would automatically be okay if you, if you adapted, sorry, if you adopted that posture.

   5. LFLex Fridman32:49

      So you think, uh, this time reveals the weakness of our institutions and reveals the strength of our gadflies and the weirdos and the-

   6. EWEric Weinstein32:58

      No, not necessarily the strength, but the f- the, the value of freedom. Like a different way of saying-

   7. LFLex Fridman33:03

      Right.

   8. EWEric Weinstein33:03

      ... it would be, "Wow, even your gadflies and your grifters were able to beat your institutional folks because your institutional folks were playing with a giant mental handicap." So just imagine like we were in the story of Harrison Bergeron by Vonnegut, and their smartest people were all subjected to, uh, distracting noises every seven seconds. Well, they would be functionally much dumber because they couldn't continue a thought through all the disturbance. So in some sense, that's a little bit like what belonging to an institution is, is that if you have to make a public statement, of course the surgeon general's gonna be the worst, 'cause they're, they're, they're just playing with too much of a handicap. There are too many institutional players who are like, "Don's screw us up." And so the person has to say something wrong. We're gonna back propagate a falsehood. And this is very interesting, some of my socially oriented friends say, "Eric, I don't understand what you're on about. Of course masks work, but you know what they're trying to do? They're trying to get us not to buy up the masks for the doctors." And I think, "Okay, so you imagine that we can just create scientific fiction at will so that you can run whatever social program you want?" This is what I, you know, and my point is get out of my lab. Get out of the lab. You don't belong in the lab. You're not meant for the lab. You're constitutionally incapable of being around a lab. You need to leave

5. 34:23 – 44:19

   WHO

   1. EWEric Weinstein34:23

      the lab.

   2. LFLex Fridman34:24

      You think the CDC and WHO knew that masks work and were trying to sort of imagine that people are kind of stupid and they would buy masks in, in a- in excess if they were told that masks work? Is that, like, uh, 'cause this does seem to be a particularly clear example of mistakes made.

   3. EWEric Weinstein34:48

      You're asking me this question?

   4. LFLex Fridman34:50

      Yeah, I am.

   5. EWEric Weinstein34:50

      No you're not. What do you think, Lex?

   6. LFLex Fridman34:54

      Well, I actually probably disagree with you a little bit.

   7. EWEric Weinstein34:56

      Great, let's do it.

   8. LFLex Fridman34:57

      (laughs) I think it's not so easy to be honest with the populous when the danger of panic is always around the corner. So-

   9. EWEric Weinstein35:08

      Hmm.

   10. LFLex Fridman35:10

       ... I, I, I think the kind of honesty you exhibit appeals to a certain class of brave intellectual minds that, uh, it appeals to me, but I don't know from the perspective of WHO, I don't know if it's so obvious that they should, um, be honest 100% of the time with people.

   11. EWEric Weinstein35:37

       I'm not saying you should be perfectly transparent and 100% honest. I'm saying that the quality of your lies has to be very high and it has to be-

   12. LFLex Fridman35:44

       Right.

   13. EWEric Weinstein35:44

       ... public spirited.

   14. LFLex Fridman35:46

       You're right, you're right.

   15. EWEric Weinstein35:46

       There's a big difference between... So I'm not, I'm not a child about this.

   16. LFLex Fridman35:50

       Yeah.

   17. EWEric Weinstein35:50

       I'm not saying that when you're at war, for example, you turn over all of your plans-

   18. LFLex Fridman35:54

       Right.

   19. EWEric Weinstein35:55

       ... to the enemy because y- it's v- important that you're transparent with 360-degree visibility. Far from it. What I'm saying is something has been forgotten, and I forgot who it was who told it to me, but it was a fellow graduate student in the, um, Harvard math department, and he said, "You know, I learned one thing being out in the workforce." Because he was one of the few people who'd had a work life in the department, uh, as a grad student, and he said, "You can be friends with your boss, but if you're going to be friends with your boss, you have to be doing a good job at work."

   20. LFLex Fridman36:28

       (laughs)

   21. EWEric Weinstein36:29

       And there's an analog here which is, if you're going to be reasonably honest with the population-... you have to be doing a good job at work as the surgeon general or as the head of the CDC. So if you're doing a terrible job, you're supposed to resign. And then the next person is supposed to say, "Look, I'm not gonna lie to you. I inherited the situation. It was in a bit of disarray. Um, but I had several requirements before I agreed to step in and take the job because I needed to know I could turn it around, I needed to know that I had clear lines of authority, I needed to know that I had the resources available in order to rectify the problem, and I needed to know that I had the ability and the freedom to level with the American people directly as I saw fit. All of my wishes were granted and that's why I'm happy here on Monday morning. Uh, I've got my sleeves rolled up. Boy, do we got a lot to do, so please come back in two weeks and then ask me how I'm doing then and I hope to have something to show you." That's how you do it.

   22. LFLex Fridman37:25

       So why is that excellence and basic competence missing?

   23. EWEric Weinstein37:31

       The Big Nap. You see, you come from multiple traditions where it was very important to remember things.

   24. LFLex Fridman37:38

       Yeah.

   25. EWEric Weinstein37:38

       The Soviet tradition made sure that you remembered the sacrifices that came in that war. In the Jewish tradition, we're doing this on Passover, right?

   26. LFLex Fridman37:48

       Yeah.

   27. EWEric Weinstein37:48

       Okay. Well, every year we tell one simple story. "Well, why can't it be different every year? Maybe we could have a rotating series of seven stories."

   28. LFLex Fridman37:57

       (laughs)

   29. EWEric Weinstein37:57

       Because it's the one story that you need. It's like, you know, you work with the Men in Black group, right? And it's the last suit that you'll ever need. This is the last story that you ever need. Don't think I fell for your Neuralyzer-

   30. LFLex Fridman38:10

       (laughs)
6. 44:19 – 1:38:55

   Geometric unity

   1. EWEric Weinstein44:19

   2. LFLex Fridman44:20

      You recently, uh, published the video of a lecture you gave at Oxford presenting some aspects of a theory, uh, theory of everything called geometric unity. So, this was, uh, a work of 30, 30-plus years. This is life's work. Let me ask sort of the, the silly old question. How do you feel as a human? Excited, scared-

   3. EWEric Weinstein44:44

      Yeah, all those.

   4. LFLex Fridman44:45

      ... the experience of posting it?

   5. EWEric Weinstein44:48

      You know, it's funny. One of the, one of the things that you, you learn to feel as an academic is, um, the great sins you can commit in academics, uh, is to show yourself to be a non-serious person, to show yourself to have delusions, to avoid the standard practices which everyone is signed up of- for, and, you know, it's weird because like you know that those people are gonna be angry. "He did what?" You know, "Why would he do that?" And-

   6. LFLex Fridman45:24

      And what we're referring to, for example, is traditions of sort of publishing incrementally, certainly not trying to have a theory of everything, perhaps working within the academic departments.

   7. EWEric Weinstein45:37

      Yup.

   8. LFLex Fridman45:37

      All those things.

   9. EWEric Weinstein45:38

      Th- that's true.

   10. LFLex Fridman45:39

       And so, you're going outside of all of that.

   11. EWEric Weinstein45:42

       Well, I mean, I was going inside of all of that, and we did not come to terms when I was inside, and what they did was so outside to me, was so weird, so freakish. Like, the most senior respectable people at the most senior respectable places were functionally insane as far as I could tell, and again, it's like being functionally stupid if you're the head of the, uh, CDC or something where, you know, you're, you're giving recommendations out that aren't based on what you actually believe. They're based on what you think you have to be doing. Well, in some sense, I think that that's a lot of how I saw the math and physics world as ... the physics world was really crazy and the math world was considerably less crazy, just very strict and kind of dogmatic.

   12. LFLex Fridman46:28

       We'll, we'll psychoanalyze those folks, but I, I really wanna maybe linger on it a little bit longer of how you feel 'cause-

   13. EWEric Weinstein46:37

       Yeah. So-

   14. LFLex Fridman46:37

       ... this is such a, such a special moment in your life.

   15. EWEric Weinstein46:39

       Well, I really appreciate it. It's a great question, so that if we can pair off some of that other, those other issues, um ... It's new. Being able to say what the observerse is, which is my attempt to replace spacetime with something that is both closely related to spacetime and not spacetime. Um, so I used to carry the number 14 as a closely guarded secret in my life, and, uh, where 14 is really four dimensions of space and time plus 10 extra dimensions of rulers and protractors, or for the cool kids out there, uh, symmetric 2-tensors.

   16. LFLex Fridman47:21

       So you had a geometric, a complicated beautiful geometric view of the world that you carried with you for a long time.

   17. EWEric Weinstein47:28

       Yeah.

   18. LFLex Fridman47:28

       Did you, did you have friends that you, um, colleagues that you-

   19. EWEric Weinstein47:32

       Essentially no.

   20. LFLex Fridman47:33

       ... talked?

   21. EWEric Weinstein47:34

       No. In fact, part of these, part of, some of these stories are me coming out to my friends, um ... And I use the phrase "coming out" because I think that gays have monopolized the concept of a closet.

   22. LFLex Fridman47:47

       (laughs)

   23. EWEric Weinstein47:47

       Many of us are in closets hav- having nothing to do with our sexual orientation. Um, yeah, I didn't really feel comfortable talking to almost anyone, so this was a closely guarded, uh, secret. And I think that I let on in some ways that I was up to something and probably ... But it wa- it was a very weird life. So I'd to buy- I had to b- have a series of things that I pretended to care about so that I could use that as the stalking horse for what I really cared about. And to your point, um, I never understood this whole thing about theories of everything. Like if you were gonna go into something like theoretical physics, w- isn't that what you would normally pursue? Like, wouldn't it be crazy to do something that difficult and that poorly paid if you were gonna try to do something other than figure out what this is all about?

   24. LFLex Fridman48:34

       Now I have to reveal my cards, uh, my sort of weaknesses and lack in, in un- understanding of the music of physics and math departments, but there's an analogy here to artificial intelligence. And often ...... folks come in and say, "Okay, so there's a giant department working on, quote unquote, artificial intelligence, but why is nobody actually working on intelligence?" Like, it, you're, you're all just bui- building little toys.

   25. EWEric Weinstein49:04

       Right.

   26. LFLex Fridman49:04

       You're not actually trying to understand, and that breaks a lot of people. Uh, th- they, it confuses them because like, "Okay, so I'm at MIT, I'm at Stanford, I'm at Harvard, I'm here, I dreamed of being, working on artificial intelligence, why is everybody not actually working on intelligence?" And I, I have the same kind of sense that that's what working on the theory of everything is. That s- strangely, you somehow become an outcast for even-

   27. EWEric Weinstein49:33

       But we know why this is, right?

   28. LFLex Fridman49:36

       Why?

   29. EWEric Weinstein49:36

       Well, it's because, let's take the artific- let's, let's play with AGI, for example.

   30. LFLex Fridman49:40

       Yeah.

Episode duration: 2:46:35