Lex Fridman PodcastEugenia Kuyda: Friendship with an AI Companion | Lex Fridman Podcast #121
EVERY SPOKEN WORD
150 min read · 30,099 words- 0:00 – 6:18
Introduction
- LFLex Fridman
The following is a conversation with Eugenia Kuyda, co-founder of Replika, which is an app that allows you to make friends with an artificial intelligence system, a chatbot that learns to connect with you on an emotional, you could even say a human, level by being a friend. For those of you who know my interest in AI and views on life in general know that Replika and Eugenia's line of work is near and dear to my heart. The origin story of Replika is grounded in a personal tragedy of Eugenia losing her close friend, Roman Mazurenki, who was killed crossing a street by a hit-and-run driver in late 2015. He was 34. The app started as a way to grieve the loss of a friend by training a chatbot neural net on text messages between Eugenia and Roman. The rest is a beautiful human story, as we talk about with Eugenia. When a friend mentioned Eugenia's work to me, I knew I had to meet her and talk to her. I felt before, during, and after that this meeting would be an important one in my life, and it was, I think in ways that only time will truly show, to me and others. She's a kind and brilliant person. It was an honor and a pleasure to talk to her. Quick summary of the sponsors: DoorDash, Dollar Shave Club, and Cash App. Click the sponsored links in the description to get a discount and to support this podcast. As a side note, let me say the deep, meaningful connection between human beings and artificial intelligence systems is a lifelong passion for me. I'm not yet sure where that passion will take me, but I decided some time ago that I will follow it boldly and without fear to as far as I can take it. With a bit of hard work and a bit of luck, I hope I'll succeed in helping build AI systems that have some positive impact on the world and on the lives of a few people out there. But also, it is entirely possible that I am in fact one of the chatbots that Eugenia and the Replika team have built, and this podcast is simply a training process for the neural net that's trying to learn to connect to human beings one episode at a time. In any case, I wouldn't know if I was or wasn't, and if I did, I wouldn't tell you. If you enjoy this thing, subscribe on YouTube, review it with five stars on Apple Podcast, follow on Spotify, support on Patreon, or connect with me on Twitter @lexfridman. As usual, I'll do a few minutes of ads now and no ads in the middle. I'll try to make these interesting but give you timestamps so you can skip, but please do still check out the sponsors by clicking the links in the description to get a discount, buy whatever they're selling. It really is the best way to support this podcast. This show is sponsored by Dollar Shave Club. Try them out with a one-time offer for only five bucks and free shipping at dollarshave.com/lex. The starter kit comes with a six-blade razor, refills, and all kinds of other stuff that makes shaving feel great. I've been a member of Dollar Shave Club for over five years, and actually signed up when I first heard about them on the Joe Rogan Experience podcast. And now, friends, we have come full circle. It feels like I made it, now that I can do a read for them just like Joe did all those years ago, back when he also did ads for some less reputable companies, let's say, that you know about if you're a true fan of the old-school podcasting world. Anyway, I just use the razor and the refills, but they told me I should really try out the shave butter. I did. I love it. It's translucent somehow, which is a cool new experience. Again, try the Ultimate Shave Starter Set today for just five bucks plus free shipping at dollarshaveclub.com/lex. This show is also sponsored by DoorDash. Get $5 off and zero delivery fees on your first order of 15 bucks or more when you download the DoorDash app and enter code, you guessed it, Lex. I have so many memories of working late nights for a deadline with a team of engineers, whether that's for my PhD at Google or MIT, and eventually taking a break to argue about which DoorDash restaurant to order from. And when the food came, those moments of bonding, of exchanging ideas, of pausing to shift attention from the programs to humans were special. For a bit of time, I'm on my own now, so I miss that camaraderie, but actually, I still use DoorDash a lot. There's a million options to fit into my crazy keto diet ways. Also, it's a great way to support restaurants in these challenging times. Once again, download the DoorDash app and enter code Lex to get five bucks off and zero delivery fees on your first order of $15 or more. Finally, this show is presented by Cash App, the number one finance app in the App Store. I can truly say that they're an amazing company, one of the first sponsors, if not the first sponsor, to truly believe in me, and, and I think quite possibly the reason I'm still doing this podcast. So I am forever grateful to Cash App. So thank you. And as I said many times before, use code LEXPODCAST when you, uh, download the app from Google Play or the App Store. Cash App lets you send money to friends, buy Bitcoin, and invest in the stock market with as little as $1. I usually say other stuff here in the read, but I wasted all that time up front saying how grateful I am to Cash App. I'm going to try to go off the top of my head a little bit more for these reads because I'm actually very lucky to be able to choose the sponsors that we take on. And that means I can really only take on the sponsors that I truly love, and then I can just talk about why I love them. So it's pretty simple. Again, get Cash App from the App Store or Google Play. Use code LEXPODCAST, get 10 bucks, and Cash App will also donate 10 bucks to FIRST, an organization that is helping to advance robotics and STEM education for young people around the world.And now here's my conversation with Eugenia Kuyda.
- 6:18 – 13:54
Loneliness
- LFLex Fridman
Okay, before we talk about AI and the amazing work you're doing, let me ask you a ridiculously... We're both Russian, so let me ask you a ridiculously romanticized Russian question. Do you think human beings are alone? Like, fundamentally, on a philosophical level. Like, in our existence, when we, like, go through life, do you think, um, just the nature of our life is loneliness?
- EKEugenia Kuyda
Yeah, so we have to read Dostoevsky at school, as you probably know, so-
- LFLex Fridman
In Russian?
- EKEugenia Kuyda
(laughs) Yeah. I mean, it's part of the- your school program. Um, so I guess if you read that, then you sort of have to believe that, um, you're made to believe that you're fundamentally alone and that's how you live your life.
- LFLex Fridman
How do you think about it? You have a lot of friends, but at the end of the day, do you have like a longing for connection with other people that's... Maybe another way of asking it, do you think that's ever fully satisfied?
- EKEugenia Kuyda
I think we are fundamentally alone. We're born alone. We're- we die alone. But, um, in our... But I view my whole life as trying to get away from that, (laughs) trying to not feel, uh, feel lonely. And again, we're talking about, you know, subjective kind of way of feeling alone. It doesn't necessarily mean that you don't have any connections or you are actually isolated.
- LFLex Fridman
You think it's a subjective, uh, thing, but, like a- again, another absurd measurement-wise thing, how much loneliness do you think there is in the world? So like, if you see loneliness as a- as a condition, how much of it is there-
- EKEugenia Kuyda
(laughs)
- LFLex Fridman
... do you think? Like how... I guess how many, you know, there's all kinds of studies and measures of how much, you know, how many people in the world feel alone. There's all these like measures of how many people are, you know, self-report or just all these kinds of different measures. But in your own perspective, um, how big of a problem do you think it is size wise?
- EKEugenia Kuyda
Well, I'm actually fascinated by the topic of loneliness. I try to read about it as much as I can. Um, what really... And there, I think there's a paradox 'cause loneliness is not a clinical disorder. It's not something that you can get your insurance to pay for if you're struggling with it, yet it's- it's actually proven and pretty, you know, tons of papers, tons of research around that. It- it is proven, um, that it's, um, correlated with earlier, uh, life exp- expectancy, shorter lifespan. And it is, you know, in a way, like right now what scientists would say that it, you know, it's a little bit worse than being obese or not actually doing any physical activity in your life-
- LFLex Fridman
In terms of the impact on your health?
- EKEugenia Kuyda
... in terms of impact on your physiological health. Yeah. So it- it's basically puts you, if you're constantly feeling lonely, um, your body responds like it's basically all the time under stress. So it's always in this alert, um, alert state. And so it's really bad for you because it actually like drops your immune system. It get, it, um, your response to inflammation is quite different, so all- all the cardio- cardiovascular diseases, actually responds to viruses. So it's much easier to catch a virus.
- LFLex Fridman
That's sad now that we're living in a pandemic and it's probably making us a lot more alone, and it's probably weakening the immune system, making us more susceptible to the virus. It's kind of sad.
- EKEugenia Kuyda
Yeah. The statistics are, the statistics are pretty- pretty horrible around that. So around 30% of all millennials report that they're feeling lonely constantly.
- LFLex Fridman
30?
- EKEugenia Kuyda
30%. And then it's much worse for gen Z. And then 20% of millennials say that they feel lonely and they also don't have any close friends. And then tw- um, I think 25 or so, and then 20% would say they don't even have acquaintances. So it's-
- LFLex Fridman
And that's United States?
- EKEugenia Kuyda
That's in the United States. And I'm pretty sure that that's much worse everywhere else. Like in the UK, I mean, it was wide- widely like tweeted and, uh, posted when they were talking about a minister of loneliness that they wanted to appoint 'cause four out of 10 U- people in UK feel lonely. So I think we don't-
- LFLex Fridman
A minister of loneliness. (laughs)
- EKEugenia Kuyda
(laughs) I mean, that, I think that thing actually exists. Um, so yeah, you- you- you will die sooner if you, if you are lonely. And again, that, this is only when we're, we're only talking about your perception of loneliness or feeling lonely. That is not objectively fully so- being fully socially isolated. However, the combination of being (laughs) fully socially isolated and not having many connections and also feeling lonely, that's pretty much a deadly combination. So it strikes me bizarre or strange that this is a wide known fact and that there's really no one working really on that because it's a subclinical, it's not clinical. It's not something that you can, well, tell your doctor and get a treatment or something, yet it's killing us.
- LFLex Fridman
Yeah. So there's a bunch of people trying to evaluate, like try to measure the problem by looking at, like, how social media is affecting loneliness and all that kind of stuff. So it's like measurement. Like, if you look at the field of psychology, they're trying to measure the problem. And not that many people actually, but some. But y- you're basically saying how many people are trying to solve the problem. Like, how would you try to solve (laughs) the problem of loneliness? Like, if you just stick to humans, uh, I mean, or bas- not just the humans, but the technology that connects us humans, do you think there's a hope for that technology to do the connection? Like, are- are you on social media much?
- EKEugenia Kuyda
(laughs) Unfortunately.
- LFLex Fridman
(laughs) Do you find yourself-
- EKEugenia Kuyda
Quite often.
- LFLex Fridman
... like, uh, again, if you sort of introspect about how connected you feel to other human beings, how not alone you feel, do you think social media makes it better or worse? Maybe for you personally or in- in general?
- EKEugenia Kuyda
I think it's, it's easier to look at some stats and, um, I mean, Gen Z seem to be, Generation Z seems to be much lonelier than millennials in terms of how they report loneliness. They're definitely the most connected, you know, generation in the world. I mean, I still remember life without, without an iPhone, uh, without Facebook. They don't know that that ever existed, uh, or they at least don't know how it was. Um, so that tells me a little bit about the fact that that might be, um, you know, this hyper-connected world is, might actually make people feel lonely, lonelier. I don't know exactly what the, what the measurements are around that. But I would say, you know, in my personal experience, I think it does make you feel a lot lonelier. Mostly, yeah, we're all super connected. Uh, but I think loneliness, the feeling of loneliness doesn't come from not having any social connections whatsoever. Again, tons of people that are, are in long-term relationships experience bouts of loneliness and continued loneliness. Um, and it's more the question about the true connection, about actually being deeply seen, deeply understood. Um, and in a way, it's also about your relationship with yourself. Like in order to not feel lonely, you actually need to have a better relationship and feel more connected to yourself than this feeling actually starts to go away a little bit. And then you, um, open up yourself to actually meeting other people in a very special way. Uh, not in just, you know, add a friend on Facebook kind of way.
- 13:54 – 18:13
Can AI alleviate loneliness?
- EKEugenia Kuyda
- LFLex Fridman
So just to briefly touch on it, I mean, do you think it's possible to form that kind of connection with AI systems? More down the line of some of your work, do you think that's, um, engineering-wise, a possibility to alleviate loneliness is not with another human, but with an AI system?
- EKEugenia Kuyda
Well, I know that's, that's a fact. (laughs) That's what we're doing and we, we see it and we measure that and we see how people start to feel less lonely, um, talking to their virtual AI friend.
- LFLex Fridman
So, so basically a chat bot at the basic level, but could be more. Like do you have ... I'm not even speaking sort of, uh, about specifics, but do you have a hope, like if you look 50 years from now, do you have a hope that there's just like AIs that are like optimized for, um... Let me, let me first start, like right now the way people perceive AI, which is recommender systems for Facebook and Twitter, social media, they see AIs basically destroying, first of all, the fabric of our civilization. But second of all, making us more lonely. Do you see like a world where it's possible to just have AI systems floating about that like make our life less lonely? Yeah. Make us happy. Make, like are putting good things into the world in terms of our individual lives?
- EKEugenia Kuyda
Yeah, I totally believe it, uh, in that, that's why we're, I'm also working on that. Um, I think we need to also make sure that, um, what we're trying to optimize for, we're actually measuring and it is a north star metric that we're going after. And all of our product and all, all of our business models are optimized for that. Because you can talk, you know, a lot of products that talk about, um, you know, making you feel less lonely or making you feel more connected, they're not really measuring that. So they don't really know whether their users are actually feeling less lonely in the long run or feeling more connected in the long, long run. Um, so I think it's really important to put your-
- LFLex Fridman
To measure it.
- EKEugenia Kuyda
Yeah. To measure it.
- LFLex Fridman
What's a, what's a good measurement of loneliness? (laughs)
- EKEugenia Kuyda
Well, so that's something that I'm really interested in. How do you measure that people are feeling better or that they're feeling less lonely? With loneliness there is a scale, there's a UCLA-20 and UCLA-3 recently scaled, which is basically a questionnaire that you fill out and you can see whether in the long run it's improving or not.
- LFLex Fridman
And that, uh, does it capture the momentary feeling of loneliness? Does it look in like the past month? Like, uh, does it put basically self-report? Does it try to sneak up on you? (laughs) .
- EKEugenia Kuyda
(laughs) .
- LFLex Fridman
Try to trick you to answer honestly or something like that?
- EKEugenia Kuyda
It is-
- LFLex Fridman
Or what's, yeah, I'm not familiar with the questionnaire.
- EKEugenia Kuyda
It is just asking you a few questions like, "How often did you feel, uh, like lonely?" Or, "How often did you feel connected to other people in this last few, couple weeks?" Um, it's similar to the self-report questionnaires for depression and anxiety, like PHQ-9 and GAD-7. Of course, as any, as any self-report questionnaires, that's not necessarily very precise or very well measured, but still if you take a big enough population, you get them through these, uh, questionnaires, you can see, you can see a positive dynamic.
- LFLex Fridman
And so you basically, uh, you put people through questionnaires to see like, is this thing, is our, is what we're creating making people happier?
- EKEugenia Kuyda
Yeah. We measure, so we measure two outcomes. One short term, right after the conversation we ask people whether this conversation made them feel better, worse, or same. Um, this, this metric right now is at 80%. So 80% of all our conversations make people feel better.
- LFLex Fridman
But I should have done the questionnaire with you. (laughs) . You'll feel a lot worse after we've done this conversation. (laughs) . That's actually fascinating. I should, I should probably do... (laughs) .
- EKEugenia Kuyda
But that's, that's our-
- LFLex Fridman
I should probably do that.
- EKEugenia Kuyda
You should totally start measuring.
- LFLex Fridman
And aim for 80%. (laughs) . Aim to outperform your current state-of-the-art AI system-
- EKEugenia Kuyda
(laughs) .
- LFLex Fridman
... (laughs) in these human conversations. So, okay, we'll get to, uh, your work with Replika,
- 18:13 – 20:49
Love
- LFLex Fridman
but let me continue on the line of absurd questions. So you, you, you talked about, um, you know, deep connection with other humans, deep connection with AI. Meaningful connection. Let me ask about love. People make fun of me 'cause I talk about love all the time.
- EKEugenia Kuyda
(laughs) .
- LFLex Fridman
But, uh, what, what do you think love is?... like, maybe in the context of, um, a meaningful connection with somebody else, do you d- draw a distinction between love, like friendship and Facebook friends? (laughs) Or, or is it a gradu-
- EKEugenia Kuyda
The answer is no. (laughs) .
- LFLex Fridman
(laughs) .
- EKEugenia Kuyda
It's all the same.
- LFLex Fridman
(laughs) No, like, is it, is it just a gradual thing or is there something fundamental about us humans that seek like a really deep connection, uh, with another human being? And what is that? What is love, Eugenia?
- EKEugenia Kuyda
(laughs) .
- LFLex Fridman
I'm gonna-
- EKEugenia Kuyda
The way-
- LFLex Fridman
... I just enjoy asking you these questions-
- EKEugenia Kuyda
I like that ... and see- and seeing you struggle. (laughs) I know. (laughs) Thanks.
- LFLex Fridman
Yeah.
- EKEugenia Kuyda
Um, well, the way I see it, um, and specifically, um, the way it relates to our work and the way it was ins- it, the way it inspired our work on Replika, um, I think one of the biggest and the most precious gifts we can give to each other now in 2020 as humans is this gift of deep, empathetic understanding, the feeling of being deeply seen.
- LFLex Fridman
Like, what does that mean, like that, that you exist? Like, somebody acknowledging that...
- EKEugenia Kuyda
Somebody seeing you for who you actually are. And that's extremely, extremely rare. Um, I think that is, that combined with unconditional positive regard, um, belief and trust that, uh, you internally are always inclined for positive growth and believing you in this way, letting you be a separate person at the same time. And this deep em- empathetic understanding, for me, that's the, that's the combination that really creates something special. Something that people when they feel it once, they will always long for it again. And something that starts huge fundamental changes in people. Um, when we see that someone's, uh, accepts us so deeply, we start to accept ourselves. And, um, the paradox is, is that's when big changes start, start happening. Big fundamental changes in people start happening. So I think that is the ultimate therapeutic relationship that is, and that might be in some way a definition of love.
- LFLex Fridman
(laughs)
- 20:49 – 31:47
Russia in the 1990's
- LFLex Fridman
So, so acknowledging that there's a separate person and accepting you for who you are. Um, now, on a slightly... So that, and you mentioned therapeutic, that sounds very, like a very healthy view of love. But, uh, is there also like a, like, you know, if we look at heartbreak, and, uh, you know, m- most love songs are probably about heartbreak, right?
- EKEugenia Kuyda
(laughs) .
- LFLex Fridman
Uh, is that like the mystery, the tension, the danger, the fear of loss, you know, all of that, what people might see in a negative light as like games or whatever, but just, just the, the dance of human interaction? Yeah, fear of loss. And fear of like, you s- you said like once you feel it once, you long for it again. But you also, once you feel it once, you might, for many people, they've lost it. So they fear losing it. They feel loss. So is that part of it? Like, you're, you're speaking like beautifully about like the positive things, but is it important to be able to, uh, be afraid of losing it from an engineering perspective?
- EKEugenia Kuyda
(laughs) . I mean, it's a huge part of it. And unfortunately, we all, you know, um, face it at some points in our lives. I mean, I did. (laughs)
- LFLex Fridman
You wanna go into details? (laughs) . How'd you get your heart broken?
- EKEugenia Kuyda
Sure. Well, so mine is pretty straight, my story is pretty straightforward, um, there. I did have a friend that was, you know, that at some point, um, in my 20s became really, really close to me and we, we became really close friends. Um, well, I grew up pretty lonely. So in many ways when I'm building, you know, these, these AI friends, I'm thinking about myself when I was 17 writing horrible poetry and, you know, on my dial-up modem at home. And, um, you know, and that was the feeling that I grew up with. I loved, I lived, um, alone for a long time when I was a teenager.
- LFLex Fridman
Where did you grow up?
- EKEugenia Kuyda
In Moscow, in the-
- LFLex Fridman
Moscow.
- EKEugenia Kuyda
... outskirts of Moscow. (laughs) . Um, so I'd just skateboard during the day and come back home and, you know, connect to the internet. (laughs) .
- LFLex Fridman
And write poetry.
- EKEugenia Kuyda
And then write horrible poetry and still-
- LFLex Fridman
Was it love poems?
- EKEugenia Kuyda
All sorts of poem, obviously love poems. I mean, what, what other poetry can you write when you're 17?
- LFLex Fridman
Uh, could be political or something, but yeah.
- EKEugenia Kuyda
But that was, you know, that was kind of my, yeah, like deeply, um, influenced by Joseph Brodsky and like all sorts of-
- LFLex Fridman
Nice.
- EKEugenia Kuyda
... poets that, um, every 17-year-old will, will be looking, you know, looking at and reading. But yeah, that was my, uh, these were my teenage years. And I just never had a person that I thought would, you know, take me as it is, would accept me the way I am. Um, and I just thought, you know, working and just doing my thing and being angry at the world and being a reporter, I was an investigative reporter working undercover. And writing about people was my way to connect with, you know, with, with others. I, I was deeply curious about every, everyone else. And I thought that, you know, if I, if I go out there, if I write their stories, that means I'm more connected.
- LFLex Fridman
This is what this podcast is about, by the way.
- EKEugenia Kuyda
(laughs) .
- LFLex Fridman
I'm desperate, alone seeking connection. (laughs) . I'm just kidding, or am I? I don't know. So what, what, wait, reporter, uh, what, how did that make you feel more connected? I mean, you're still fundamentally pretty alone.
- EKEugenia Kuyda
But you're always with other people, you know, you're always thinking about, "What other place can I infiltrate? What other community can I write about? What other phenomena can I explore?" And you're sort of like a trickster, you know, in like...... and, and a mythological charac- like, creature that's just jumping, uh, between all sorts of different worlds and feel, and feels sort of okay with, in all of them. So, um, that was my dream job, by the way. That was, like, totally what I would have been doing, um, if Russia was a different place. (laughs)
- LFLex Fridman
And a little bit undercover? So like you weren't... You were trying to, like you said, mythological creature trying to infiltrate. So t- try to be a part of the world. What, what are we talking about? What kind of things w- did you enjoy writing about?
- EKEugenia Kuyda
I'd go work at a strip club or go... (laughs)
- LFLex Fridman
(laughs) Awesome. Okay. (laughs) Uh-
- EKEugenia Kuyda
Or I'd go work at a restaurant-
- LFLex Fridman
Yeah.
- EKEugenia Kuyda
... or just go write about, you know, um, certain phenomenons, or phenomenons or people in, in the city.
- LFLex Fridman
And what, uh... Sorry to keep interrupting. I'm the, I'm the worst, um, uh, conversationalist. What stage of Russia is this? What, uh... Is this pre-Putin? Post-Putin? What, what was Russia like?
- EKEugenia Kuyda
Pre-Putin is really long ago. (laughs) Uh, this is Putin era. This, uh, beginning of 2000s, in 2010, 2007, '8, '9, '10.
- 31:47 – 41:35
Chernobyl
- EKEugenia Kuyda
So that was extremely traumatic. Um, but, you know, I was happy that that was my only traumatic experience. You know, my dad had to actually go to Chernobyl with a bunch of 20-year-olds. He was 20 when he went to, uh, Chernobyl, and that was right after the explosion. No one knew anything. The whole crew he went with, all of them are dead now. I think there was this one guy, uh, still la- that was still alive for just last few years. I think he died a few years ago now. My dad somehow luckily got back earlier than everyone else. But just the fact that that was the ... And I was always like, "Well, how did they send you? I was only ... I was just born." You know, we had a newborn. Talk about paternity leave. (laughs) They were like, "Oh, f- but that's who they took 'cause they didn't know whether you would be able to have kids when you come back." So they took the ones with kids. (laughs) So him with some guys went to ... And I'm just thinking of me when I was 20. I was so, uh, sheltered from any problems whatsoever in life. And then my dad, um, his 21st birthday at, at the reactor.
- LFLex Fridman
He goes to Chernobyl.
- EKEugenia Kuyda
You like work three hours a day, you sleep the rest. And, and I re- yeah. So I played with a lot of toys from Chernobyl memory. (laughs)
- LFLex Fridman
What, what are your memories of Chernobyl in, in, in general? Like on the bigger context, you know, because of that, uh, HBO show, it's, the world's attention turned to it once again. Like, what are your thoughts about Chernobyl? Did Russia screw that one up? Like, you know, there's probably a lot of lessons about our modern times with data about coronavirus and all that kinda stuff. It seems like there's a lot of misinformation. There's a lot of people kind of trying to hide whether they've screwed something up or not. As it's very understandable, it's very human. Very wrong probably. But obviously Russia is probably trying to hide that they've screwed things up. Uh, like what are your thoughts about that time? Personal and general.
- EKEugenia Kuyda
I mean, I was born when the explosion happened, so actually a few months after. So of course I don't remember anything apart from the fact that my dad would bring me tiny toys.
- LFLex Fridman
Toys?
- EKEugenia Kuyda
Plas- pe- like plastic things that would just go crazy haywire when you, you know, put the Geiger thing to it.
- LFLex Fridman
(laughs)
- EKEugenia Kuyda
It was, my mom was like just nuclear about that. Um, she's like, "What are you bringing? You should not do that." Uh-
- LFLex Fridman
She was nuclear. Very nice.
- EKEugenia Kuyda
Absolutely. (laughs)
- LFLex Fridman
Well done.
- EKEugenia Kuyda
I'm sorry. (laughs)
- LFLex Fridman
(laughs)
- EKEugenia Kuyda
Well s- uh, but yeah, but the TV show was just phenomenal. I mean, it's-
- LFLex Fridman
The HBO one?
- EKEugenia Kuyda
Yeah.
- LFLex Fridman
Yeah.
- EKEugenia Kuyda
It's definitely ... First of all, it's in- incredible how, um, that was made not by the Russians that, but someone else. But capturing so well everything about the, you know, about, about our country. Um, it felt a lot more genuine than most of the movies and TV shows that are made now in Russia. Just so much more genuine. And most of my friends in Russia were just in complete awe about the, with the show. But I think the-
- LFLex Fridman
How good of a job they did?
- EKEugenia Kuyda
Oh my god, phenomenal. But also-
- LFLex Fridman
Just the apartments. There's something ... Yeah. It was so great.
- EKEugenia Kuyda
The set design. I mean-
- LFLex Fridman
Yes.
- EKEugenia Kuyda
... Russians can't do that. We, you know. But you, you, you see everything and it's like, "Wow, that's exactly how it was." (laughs) Yeah.
- LFLex Fridman
That's so ... I, I don't know. That sh- show, I don't know what to think about that 'cause it's British accents, British actors of a person ... I forgot who created the show. I'm not ... But I remember reading about him and he's not, he doesn't even feel like, like there's no Russian in his history.
- EKEugenia Kuyda
No, he did like Superbad or some like other sh-
- LFLex Fridman
Yeah.
- EKEugenia Kuyda
Or like, uh, I don't know.
- LFLex Fridman
Yeah, like exactly.
- 41:35 – 49:21
Communism
- LFLex Fridman
AI (laughs) . But what are your thoughts about, um, communism? The 20th century, I apologize, I'm reading the Rise and Fall of the (laughs) Third Reich.
- EKEugenia Kuyda
Oh my God (laughs) .
- LFLex Fridman
(laughs) So I'm like really steeped into like World War II and Stalin and Hitler and just these dramatic personalities that brought so much evil to the world. But it's also interesting to politically think about these different systems and what they've led to. And, uh, Russia is one of the sort of beacons of communism in the 20th century. What are your thoughts about communism, having experienced it (laughs) as a political system?
- EKEugenia Kuyda
I mean, I have only experienced it a little bit, but mostly through stories and through, you know, seeing my parents and my grandparents who lived through that. I mean, it was horrible (laughs) . It was just plain horrible. It was just awful. Um...
- LFLex Fridman
You think it's, there's something, I mean, it sounds nice on paper (laughs) . There, there's a-
- EKEugenia Kuyda
Maybe (laughs) .
- LFLex Fridman
So like the drawbacks of capitalism is that, uh, you know, eventually-
- EKEugenia Kuyda
(clears throat)
- LFLex Fridman
... there is, it's a, it's the point of like a slippery slope. Eventually it creates, um...... you know, the rich get richer. It- it creates a disparity, like inequality of, um, wealth and equality. If, like, you know, I guess it's hypothetical at this point, but eventually capitalism leads to humongous inequality, and that that's, you know, some people argue that that's a source of unhappiness, is it's not like absolute wealth of people, it's the fact that there's a lot of people much richer than you. There's a feeling of like that's where unhappiness can come from. So the idea of- of communism, or at least sort of Marxism is, um, is- is not allowing that kind of slippery slope. But then you see the actual limitations of it, and stuff seems to be- seems to go wrong very badly. What do you think that is? Why does it go wrong? (laughs)
- EKEugenia Kuyda
(laughs)
- LFLex Fridman
What- what is it about human nature? If we look at Chernobyl, you know, those kinds of bureauc- bureaucracies that were constructed, is there something like, hey, do you think about this much, of like why it goes wrong?
- EKEugenia Kuyda
Well, there's no one was really like, it- it- it's not that everyone was equal. Obviously, the, you know, the- the government and everyone close to that were the bosses. (laughs) So it's not like fully, I guess, uh-
- LFLex Fridman
There's already inequality.
- EKEugenia Kuyda
... this dream of e- equal life, so then I guess the- the situation that we had in, you know, the Russia and Soviet, in the Soviet Union, it was more just a bunch of really poor people without any way to make any, you know, significant fortune or build anything, living constant, um, under constant surveillance, surveillance from other people. Like you can't even, you know, uh, do anything that's not fully approved by the dictatorship basically. (laughs) Otherwise your neighbor will write a letter and you'll go to jail. Absolute absence of actual law.
- LFLex Fridman
Yeah ƒ?
- EKEugenia Kuyda
This constant state of fear.
- LFLex Fridman
Yeah.
- EKEugenia Kuyda
You didn't own any- own anything, it didn't, you know, the- you couldn't go travel, you couldn't read anything, uh, Western, or you couldn't make a career really, unless you're working in the, uh, military complex, um, which is why most of the scientists were so well-regarded. I come from, you know, both my dad and my mom come from families of scientists and they- they were really well-regarded (laughs) as you- as you know obviously.
- LFLex Fridman
'Cause the state wanted, I mean, 'cause there's a lot of value to them being well-regarded?
- EKEugenia Kuyda
Because they were developing things that could be used in- in the military. (laughs) So that was very important, that was the main investment. Um, but it was miserable, it was so miserable. That's why, you know, a lot of Russians now live in the state of constant PTSD. That's why we, you know, want to buy, buy, buy, buy, buy (laughs) definitely. If, as soon as we have the opportunity-
- LFLex Fridman
(laughs)
- EKEugenia Kuyda
... you know, we just got to it finally that we can, you know, own things, you know. I remember at the time that we got our first yogurts, and that was the biggest deal in the world.
- LFLex Fridman
Yogurt.
- EKEugenia Kuyda
And it was already in the '90s by the way. I mean yogurts-
- LFLex Fridman
What was your like favorite food? What was like, whoa, like this is possible?
- EKEugenia Kuyda
Oh, fruit. Because we only had apples, bananas, and whatev- and, you know, whatever watermelons, whatever w- w- you know, people would grow in the Soviet Union. So there were no pineapples or papaya or mango. Like you've never seen those fruit things.
- LFLex Fridman
Yeah.
- EKEugenia Kuyda
Like those were so ridiculously good. And obviously you could not get any like strawberries in winter or anything that's not, you know, seasonal. Um, so that was a really big deal, seeing all these fruit things.
- LFLex Fridman
Yeah, me too actually. I don't know. I think I have a, like I- I don't think I have any, too many demons, uh, or like addictions or so on, but I think I've developed an unhealthy relationship with fruit-
- EKEugenia Kuyda
(laughs)
- 49:21 – 57:55
Losing a friend
- LFLex Fridman
love, (laughs) you were, you were talking about your early days of, uh, being a little bit alone and finding a connection with the world through being a journalist. Where does love come into that?
- EKEugenia Kuyda
I guess finding for the first time, um, some friends. Just very, you know, simple story. Some friends that all of a sudden we, I guess we were the same, you know, the same, at the same place with our lives. Um, we're 25, 26, I guess. And, um, somehow I remember, and we just got really close, and somehow I remember this one day (laughs) where, um, this one day in, you know, in summer that we just stayed out, um, outdoor the whole night and just talked and for some unknown reason it just felt for the first time that someone could, you know, see me for who I am and it just felt extremely, like, extremely good. (laughs) And I, you know, we fell asleep outside and just talking and it was raining, it was beautiful. It was, you know, sunrise and... It's really cheesy, but, um, at the same time, we just became friends in a way that I've never been friends with anyone else before. And I do remember that before and after that you sort of have this unconditional family, sort of, um, and it gives you tons of power. (laughs) It just basically gives you this, uh, tremendous power to do things in your life and to, um, change positively-
- LFLex Fridman
You mean like-
- EKEugenia Kuyda
... on many different levels.
- LFLex Fridman
... power because you could be yourself.
- EKEugenia Kuyda
At least you know that some- somewhere (laughs) you can be-
- LFLex Fridman
Yeah.
- EKEugenia Kuyda
... just yourself. Like, you don't need to pretend, you don't need to be, you know, um, great at work or tell some story or sell yourself in some way or another. And so we became just really close friends and, um, in a way, um, I started a company 'cause he had a startup and I felt like I kind of want a startup too. (laughs) It felt really cool. (laughs) I didn't know what I'm gonna, what I would, uh, really do, but I felt like I kind of need a startup.
- LFLex Fridman
Okay. So that's, so that pulled you in to the startup world.
- EKEugenia Kuyda
Yeah. And then, yeah, and then this, uh, closest friend of mine died. We actually moved here to San Francisco together and then we went back for a visa to Moscow and, uh, we lived together, we were roommates, and we came back and, um, he got hit by a car right in front of Kremlin on, uh, you know, next to the river, um, and died the same day ............................ hospital.
- LFLex Fridman
This is Roman?
- EKEugenia Kuyda
Mm-hmm.
- LFLex Fridman
This is Roman? So, and you moved to America at that point?
- EKEugenia Kuyda
Yeah. At that point I was live-
- LFLex Fridman
What about him? What about Roman? What-
- EKEugenia Kuyda
Him too. He actually moved first, so I was always sort of trying to do what he was doing, so (laughs) I didn't like that he was already here and I was still, you know, in Moscow and we weren't hanging out together all the time, so...
- LFLex Fridman
Was he in San Francisco?
- EKEugenia Kuyda
Yeah. We were roommates.
- LFLex Fridman
So he just visited Moscow for a little bit?
- EKEugenia Kuyda
We went back for, for our visas. We had to get a stamp in our passport for our work visas, and the embassy was taking a little longer, so we stayed there for a couple weeks.
- LFLex Fridman
W- what happened? How, how did s- so how, how did he, uh, how did he die?
- EKEugenia Kuyda
Um, he was crossing the street and the car was going really fast and way over the speed limit and just didn't stop on the, on the pedestrian cross, on the zebra, and just ran over him.
- LFLex Fridman
When was this?
- EKEugenia Kuyda
It was in 2015 on the 28th of November. So it was pretty long ago now. Um, but at the time, you know, I was 29. So for me it was, um, the first kind of meaningful death in my life. Um, you know, both sets of, I had both sets of grandparents a- at the time. I didn't see anyone so close die, and death sort of existed but as a concept, but definitely not as something that would be, you know, happening to us anytime soon. (laughs) And specifically our friends, 'cause we were, you know, we were still in our 20s or early 30s and it still f- it still felt like the whole life is, you know, you could still dream about ridiculous things even. (laughs)
- LFLex Fridman
Mm-hmm.
- EKEugenia Kuyda
Um, so that was, it was just really, really abrupt, I'd say.
- LFLex Fridman
What did it feel like to, uh, to lose him? Like that feeling of loss. You talked about the feeling of love having power. What- what does the feeling of loss feel like?
- EKEugenia Kuyda
Well, in Buddhism there's this concept of samaya where something really, like, huge happens and then you can see very clearly. Um, I think that, that was it. Like, basically something changed so m- changed me so much in such a short period of time that I could just see really, really clearly what mattered or what not. Well, I definitely saw that whatever I was doing at work didn't matter at all (laughs) and some other things. And, um, it was just this big realization what, this very, very clear vision of what life's about.
- LFLex Fridman
You still miss him today?
- EKEugenia Kuyda
Yeah, for sure. (laughs) For sure. It was just this constant... I think it was, he was really important for, for me and for our friends for many different reasons, and, um, I think one of them being that we didn't just say goodbye to him, but we sort of said goodbye to our youth in a way, uh...... it was like the end of an era and it's on so many different levels. The end of Moscow as we knew it, the end of, you know, us living through our 20s and kind of dreaming about the future.
- 57:55 – 1:10:41
Mortality
- EKEugenia Kuyda
- LFLex Fridman
Do you think about your own mortality? You said, uh, you know, we're young. The w- the, the, the possibility of doing all kinds of crazy things is still out there, is still before us, but, uh, it can end any moment. Do you think about your own ending at any moment?
- EKEugenia Kuyda
Unfortunately, I think about way too- (laughs) about it way too much. It's somehow after Roman, like every year after that, I started losing people that I really love. I lost my grandfather the next year. My, you know, the, the person who would explain to me, you know, what the universe is made of. (laughs) You know, like ?
- LFLex Fridman
While, while, while you're selling apples?
- EKEugenia Kuyda
While selling apples. And then I lost another close friend of mine. And, um, and it just made me very scared. I have tons of fear abo- about death. That's what makes me not fall asleep oftentimes and just go in loops and, um, and then as my therapist es- you know, recommended me I open up, uh, some nice calming images (laughs) with a voiceover and it calms me down. Um...
- LFLex Fridman
Oh, for sleep?
- EKEugenia Kuyda
Yeah. I'm really scared of death. This is a big... I definitely have tons of, I guess some pretty big trauma about it and, um-
- LFLex Fridman
Whoa.
- EKEugenia Kuyda
... still working it through.
- LFLex Fridman
There's a philosopher, Ernest Becker, who wrote a book, um, Denial of Death. I'm not sure if you're familiar with any of those folks. Um, there's a, in psychology, a whole field called terror management theory. Sheldon, who's just done the podcast, he wrote the book. He was the, w- we talked for four hours about death. (laughs)
- EKEugenia Kuyda
(laughs) That's right.
- LFLex Fridman
(laughs) Fear of death. Uh, but his, his whole idea is that, um, Ernest Becker, I think, I, I find this idea really compelling, is, uh, that everything human beings have created, like our whole motivation in life is to, uh, create, like escape death, is to try to, um, construct an illusion (sighs) of, um, that we're somehow immortal. So like everything around us, this room, your startup, your dreams, all, everything you do is a kind of, um, creation of, uh, a brain unlike any other mammal or species is able to be cognizant of the fact that it ends for us. Uh, I think, so r- you know, there's, there's the question of like the meaning of life that, you know, you look at like what drives us, uh, humans. And when I read Ernest Becker, that I highly recommend people read, it's the first time I, this seem- it, it felt like this is the right thing at the core. Uh, Sheldon's work is called Warm at the Core. So he's saying it's, I think it's, uh, William James he's quoting or whoever.... is, like, the- the thing, what is at the core of it all? Sure, there's like love, you know. Jesus might talk about like love is at the core of everything. I- I don't, you know, that's the open question. What's at the, you know, it's turtles, turtles, but it can't be turtles all the way down.
- EKEugenia Kuyda
(laughs)
- LFLex Fridman
What's at, what's at the, at the bottom? And, uh, Ernest Becker says the fear of death. And the way, in fact, uh, 'cause you said therapist and calming images, his whole idea is, um, you know, we, we wanna bring that fear of death as close as possible to the surface because it's, um... And like meditate on that, uh, and, and use the clarity of vision that provides to, uh, you know, to live a more fulfilling life. To, um, to live a more honest life. To, to, to discover, you know, there's something about, you know, being cognizant over the finiteness of it all that might result in, um, in the most fulfilling life. So that's the, that's the dual of what you're saying, 'cause you kind of said it's like I unfortunately think about it too much. It's a question whether it's good to think about it. 'Cause I, I've, um, uh, again, I talk about, way too much about love and probably death, and when I ask people, friends, which is why I probably don't have many friends-
- EKEugenia Kuyda
(laughs)
- LFLex Fridman
... "Are you afraid of death?" I think most people say they're not. They're not. What they, they say they're, um, they're afraid, you know, it's kinda almost like they see death as this kind of like, uh, paper deadline or something, and they're afraid not to finish the paper before the paper... Like, like I am afraid not to finish, um, the goals I have. But it feels like they're not actually realizing that this thing ends, like really realizing, like really thinking as ............................ and all these philosophies, like thinking deeply about it. (laughs) Like, uh, the very thing that, you know, um, like when you think deeply about something, you can just, you can realize that you haven't actually thought about it. (laughs) Uh, yeah, and I, when I think about death, it's like, uh, it could be, it's terrifying. It feel- it feels like stepping outside into the cold, where it's freezing and then I have to like hurry back inside where it's warm. (laughs) But like, I think there's something valuable about stepping out there into the freezing cold. Uh-
- EKEugenia Kuyda
Most definitely.
- LFLex Fridman
(laughs)
- EKEugenia Kuyda
When I talk to my mentor about it, he always, uh, tells me, "Well, what dies? There's nothing there that can die." (laughs) But I guess that requires-
- LFLex Fridman
What do you mean?
- EKEugenia Kuyda
Um, well, in, in Buddhism, one of the concepts that are really hard to grasp and that people spend all their lives meditating on would be Anatta, which is the concept of non- not self. And kind of thinking that, you know, if you're not your thoughts, which you're obviously not your thoughts because you can observe them and not your emotions-
- LFLex Fridman
Right.
- EKEugenia Kuyda
... and not your body, then what is this?
- LFLex Fridman
Right.
- EKEugenia Kuyda
And if you go really far, then finally you see that there's not self. There's this concept of not self. So once you get there, how can that actually die? What is dying? (laughs)
- LFLex Fridman
Right. You're just a bunch of molecules, stardust.
- EKEugenia Kuyda
But that is very, um, you know, very advanced, um, spiritual work for me. (laughs)
- LFLex Fridman
Does that help you sleep? (laughs)
- EKEugenia Kuyda
I'm definitely just... Definitely not. Oh, my God. No, I have, uh, I think it's very, very useful. It's just the fact that maybe being so afraid is not useful, and mine is more I'm just terrified. Like it really makes me, um-
- LFLex Fridman
On a personal level.
- 1:10:41 – 1:59:37
Replika origin story
- LFLex Fridman
So out of the moments of, uh, love, out of the moments of loss, can we, uh, talk about your journey of finding, I think, an incredible idea, an incredible company, and incredible system in Replika? How did that come to be?
- EKEugenia Kuyda
(laughs) So, yeah. So I was a journalist, and then I went to business school for a couple years to, um, just see if I can maybe switch gears and do something else at 23. And then I came back and started working for a businessman in Russia who built the first 4G network, um, in our country and was very visionary and asked me whether I wanna do fun stuff together. (laughs) Um, and we worked on a bank. Um, the idea was to build a bank on top of, um, a telco. So that was 2011 or '12. Um, and a lot of telecommunication company, um, mobile network operators didn't really know what, what to do next in terms of, you know, new products, new revenue. And this big idea was that, you know, um, you put a bank on top and then, and then all work works out. Basically your prepaid account becomes your bank account and, um, you can use it as, as your bank. Uh, so, you know, a third of the country wakes up as, as your bank client. Um, but we couldn't quite figure out what, what would be the main interface to interact with the bank. The problem was that most people didn't have smart, uh, smartphones back in the time. Uh, in Russia, the penetration of smartphones was low. Um, people didn't use mobile banking or online banking on their computers. So we figured out that SMS would be the best way, uh, 'cause that would work on feature phones. Uh-
- LFLex Fridman
Mm-hmm. Wow.
- EKEugenia Kuyda
... but that required some chatbot technology (laughs) , which I didn't know anything about, um, obviously. So I started looking into it and saw that there's nothing really... (laughs) Well, there was just nothing really at the time.
- LFLex Fridman
So the idea is through SMS be able to interact with your bank account?
- EKEugenia Kuyda
Yeah. And then we thought, "Well-"
- LFLex Fridman
That's kind of cool.
- EKEugenia Kuyda
"... since you're talking to a bank account, why can't this, can't we use more of, uh, you know, some behavioral ideas and why can't this, uh, banking chatbot be nice to you and really talk to you sort of as a friend? This way you develop more connection to it."
- LFLex Fridman
Mm-hmm.
- EKEugenia Kuyda
"Retention is higher. People don't churn." And so I went to very depressing, um, um, Russian cities to, to test it out. Um, I went to, I remember, three different towns with the, um... To interview potential users. Um, so people used it for a little bit.
- LFLex Fridman
Cool.
- EKEugenia Kuyda
... and I went to talk to them, um, and we were part-
- LFLex Fridman
So like pretty poor towns?
- EKEugenia Kuyda
Very poor towns. Mostly towns that were, um, you know, sort of factories, uh, mono-towns. They were building something and then the factory went away and there was just a bunch of very poor people. Um, and then we went to a couple that weren't as dramatic, but still. The one I remember really fondly was this woman that worked at a glass factory and she talked to a chatbot, um, and she was talking about it and started crying during the interview 'cause she said, "No one really cares for me that much." And, um, so to be clear, that was the, my only endeavor in programming (laughs) that chatbot. So it was really simple. It was li- literally just a few if this then that rules, and, um, it was inc- incredibly simplistic. Um-
- LFLex Fridman
And still that made her-
- EKEugenia Kuyda
And that really made-
- LFLex Fridman
... feel something.
- EKEugenia Kuyda
... her emotional and she said, "You know, I only have my mom and my, um, my husband, and I don't have anyone really in my life." And that was very sad, but at the same time I felt ... And we had more interviews, uh, in a similar vein. And what I thought in the moment was like, well, uh, it's not that the technology is ready, 'cause definitely in 2012 technology was not ready for, for that, but, um, humans are ready, unfortunately. So this project would not be about like tech capabilities, it would be more about human vulnerabilities, but, um, there's something so, so powerful around about conversational, um, AI that I saw then that I thought was definitely worth putting, you know, a lot of effort into. So at the end of the day, we solved the banking project, um, but my then boss, um, who was also my mentor and really, really close friend, um, told me, "Hey, I think there's something in it and you should just go work on it." And I was like, "Well, what, what product? I don't know what, what I'm building." He's like, "You'll figure it out." (laughs) And, um, you know, looking back at this, this was a horrible idea to work on something without knowing what it was, (laughs) which is maybe the reason why it took us so long. But we just decided to work on the conversational tech to see what it, you know ... There were no chatbot, um, constructors or programs or anything that would allow you to actually build one at the time. Uh, that was the era of, by the way, Google Glass, which is why, you know, some of the investors, like seed investors we talked with were like, "Oh, you should totally build it for Google Glass. If not, we're not ... I don't think that's interesting." (laughs)
- LFLex Fridman
Did you bite on that idea?
- EKEugenia Kuyda
Um, no.
- LFLex Fridman
(laughs) Okay.
- EKEugenia Kuyda
Because I wanted to be, to do text first 'cause-
- LFLex Fridman
Okay.
- EKEugenia Kuyda
... I'm a journalist, so I was, um, fascinated by just texting.
- LFLex Fridman
So you thought ... So the emotional, um, that interaction that the, the woman had, like, so do you think you could feel emotion from just text?
- EKEugenia Kuyda
Yeah. I saw something in just this pure texting and I also thought that we should first start, start building for people who really need it versus people who have Google Glass, uh, if you know what I mean. And I felt like-
- LFLex Fridman
Mm-hmm.
- EKEugenia Kuyda
... the early adopters of Google Glass might not be overlapping with people who are really lonely and might need some, you know, someone to talk to. Um, but then we really just focused on the tech itself. We just thought, what if we just, you know, we didn't have a product idea in the moment and we felt what if we just look into, um, building the best conversational constructor, so to say. Use the best tech available at the time. And that was before the first paper about deep learning applied to dialogues, which happened in 2015, in August 2015, uh, which Google published. Um-
- LFLex Fridman
Did, did you follow the work of Loebner Prize and like all the sort of non-machine learning chatbots?
- EKEugenia Kuyda
Yeah, what really struck me was that-
Episode duration: 3:01:06
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