Garry Kasparov: Chess, Deep Blue, AI, and Putin | Lex Fridman Podcast #46

1. 0:00 – 15:00

   The following is a…

   1. LFLex Fridman0:00

      The following is a conversation with Garry Kasparov. He's considered by many to be the greatest chess player of all time. From 1986, until his retirement in 2005, he dominated the chess world, ranking world number one for most of those 19 years. While he has many historical matches against human chess players, in the long arc of history, he may be remembered for his match against a machine, IBM's Deep Blue. His initial victories and eventual loss to Deep Blue captivated the imagination of the world of what role artificial intelligence systems may play in our civilization's future. That excitement inspired an entire generation of AI researchers, including myself, to get into the field. Garry is also a pro-democracy political thinker and leader, a fearless human rights activist, and author of several books, including How Life Imitates Chess, which is a book on strategy and decision-making, Winter Is Coming, which is a book articulating his opposition to the Putin regime, and Deep Thinking, which is a book on the role of both artificial intelligence and human intelligence in defining our future. This is the Artificial Intelligence podcast. If you enjoy it, subscribe on YouTube, give it five stars on iTunes, support it on Patreon, or simply connect with me on Twitter @lexfridman, spelled F-R-I-D-M-A-N. And now, here's my conversation with Garry Kasparov. As perhaps the greatest chess player of all time, when you look introspectively at your psychology throughout your career, what was the bigger motivator, the love of winning or the hatred of losing?

   2. GKGarry Kasparov1:47

      Tough question. I have to confess, I never heard it before, which is ... again, congratulations. It's quite an accomplishment. (laughs)

   3. LFLex Fridman1:55

      (laughs)

   4. GKGarry Kasparov1:55

      Um, losing was always painful. For me, it was almost like a physical pain, because I knew that if I lost a game it's just because I made a mistake. So it ... I always believed that the r- the result of the game, uh, had to be decided by the quality of my play. Okay, you may say it s- sounds arrogant, but it helped me to move forward because I always knew that there was room for improvement, so it's the ...

   5. LFLex Fridman2:31

      Was there the fear of the mistake?

   6. GKGarry Kasparov2:33

      Actually, fear of mistake guarantees mistakes. And the difference between, uh, top players, the very top, is that it's the ability to make a decision-

   7. LFLex Fridman2:44

      Yeah.

   8. GKGarry Kasparov2:44

      ... without predictable consequences. You don't know what's happening. It starts intuitively. I could go this way or that way and, uh, there are always hesitations. You know, people are like, "You're, you are just, you know, at a crossroad. You can go right, you can go left, you can go straight. You can turn and go back, and the consequences are just un- uh, very uncertain." Just, you have certain ideas what happens on the right or on the left or on the just, you know, if you go straight, but it's not enough to make well-calculated choice, and, uh, when you play chess at the very top, it's, it's, it's, it's about your inner strength. So I can make this decision, I will stand firm, and I'm not going to waste my time because I have full confidence that I will go through. Um, going back to your original question is I would say neither. It's just it's the, it's lo- love for winning, hate for losing, they were important elements, psychological elements, but the key element, it's the, I would say the, the driving force was always my passion for, for making a di- making a difference. It's just I can move forward and I can always, it's, I can always enjoy not just playing but creating something new.

   9. LFLex Fridman4:01

      Creating something new. How do you think about that?

   10. GKGarry Kasparov4:04

       It's just, uh-

   11. LFLex Fridman4:05

       You-

   12. GKGarry Kasparov4:05

       ... finding new ideas in the openings, you know, some original plan in the middle game. It's ... actually, that helped me to make the transition from the game of chess, where I was on the very top to, to another life where I knew I would not be number one, I would not be necessarily on the top, but I could still be very active and productive by my ability to make a difference, by influencing people, say, joining the democratic movement in Russia or talking to people about, uh, human-machine relations. There's so many things where I knew my influence may not be as decisive as in chess but still strong enough to help people to make their choices.

   13. LFLex Fridman4:51

       So you can still create something new that makes a difference, uh, uh, in the world outside of chess. But wait, you've, kind of, painted a beautiful picture of your motivations to chess, to create something new, to look for those moments of some brilliant new ideas, but were you haunted by something? See, you make it seem like to be at the level you are at, you can get away f- without having demons, without, without having fears, without being driven in- f- by some of the darker forces.

   14. GKGarry Kasparov5:25

       (exhales sharply) I mean, you sound almost religious, you know, darker forces, spiritual, uh-

   15. LFLex Fridman5:32

       No.

   16. GKGarry Kasparov5:32

       ... demons. I mean, do you have a call for a priest? (laughs)

   17. LFLex Fridman5:35

       (laughs) That's why I'm dressing.

   18. GKGarry Kasparov5:37

       Uh, yeah. No, uh, uh, just let's go back to, to, to these crucial chess moments where I had to make big decisions.

   19. LFLex Fridman5:44

       Yes.

   20. GKGarry Kasparov5:44

       As I said, it's, it's, you know, it was all about my belief from very early days that I can make all the difference by playing well or by making mistakes. So the-

   21. LFLex Fridman5:54

       Right.

   22. GKGarry Kasparov5:54

       ... yes, I, I, I always had an opponent across the chess board opposite me, but no matter how strong that opponent was, whether they just were ordinary player or another world champion like Anatoly Karpov-... I, having all respect for my opponent, I still believe that it's, it's up to me to make the difference. Uh, and, um, uh, I, you know, (exhales) I knew I, I was not invincible. I made mistakes. I made some blunders, and, you know, with age, they all... I, I made more blunders. Okay, good.

   23. LFLex Fridman6:29

       (laughs)

   24. GKGarry Kasparov6:29

       I knew it. But it's, it's still, you know, it's, it's very much for me to be decisive factor in the game. I mean, even now, look, I just... You know, my latest chess experience was horrible. I mean, I g-... I played Caruana, Caruana, Fabi Caruana, uh, this number two, number two, number three player in the world these days. We played this 960 with s-... a Fisher, so-called Fisher random chess where you're shuffling pieces. Yeah, I lost very badly, but it's because I made mistakes. I mean, I had so many winning positions. I mean, 15 years ago, I would have crushed him. So, and it's, it's... You know, while I lost, I, I wasn't so much upset. I mean, I know, as I, as I said in my in-... in the interview, I can fight any opponent, but not my biological clock. So it's-

   25. LFLex Fridman7:11

       (laughs)

   26. GKGarry Kasparov7:12

       Um, it's... Fighting time is, is, is, is, is always a losing proposition. But even today, at age 56, you know, I, I knew that, you know, I could play great game. I couldn't finish it because I didn't have enough energy or just, you know, I couldn't have the same level of concentration, but, you know, in num-... number of games where I completely outplayed one of the top players in the world, I mean, gave me certain amount of, of, uh, pleasure. That is, even today, I haven't lost my touch.

   27. LFLex Fridman7:38

       Yeah.

   28. GKGarry Kasparov7:38

       Not the same, you know, uh... Okay, the jaws are not as, as strong and the teeth are not as sharp, but I could get him just, you know, almost, you know, to... on the ropes. Uh-

   29. LFLex Fridman7:49

       You still got it.

   30. GKGarry Kasparov7:50

       Still got it, and it's... You know, and it's... I think it's... My wife said it well. I mean, she said, "Look, Garry. It's... Somehow, it's not even just fighting biolo-... your biological clock. It just, you know... Maybe it's a signal." Because, you know, (sighs) the goddess of chess, since you spoke great about demon-
2. 15:00 – 30:00

   Mm-hmm. …

   1. GKGarry Kasparov15:00

      it's the... Obviously, all amateurs would pick up my game against Veselin Topalov in 1999 in Again, because it was a brilliant game, uh, the black king traveled from, uh, from, uh, its own camp to, into the, uh, into m- into white's camp across the entire board. It doesn't happen often, trust me, (laughs) as you know-

   2. LFLex Fridman15:20

      Mm-hmm.

   3. GKGarry Kasparov15:20

      ... in, in, in, in the games with professional players, top professional players. So that's why visually it was one of the most impressive victories. But I could bring to, to your attention many other games that were not so impressive, uh, for, for amateurs, not so, not so, uh, um, beautiful-

   4. LFLex Fridman15:41

      Mm-hmm.

   5. GKGarry Kasparov15:41

      ... just 'cause it's... Sacrifice is always beautiful. You sacrifice pieces-

   6. LFLex Fridman15:44

      Yeah.

   7. GKGarry Kasparov15:44

      ... and then, and then eventually, you have so... you have very few resources left, and you, you, you use them just to, to, to, to crush your opp- uh, your, your opponent basically, to... It's a... You have to mate the king because you have al- almost, almost, uh, nothing, nothing, nothing left, uh, at your disposal. But, uh, I... You know, I... Up to the very end, again, less and less, but still up to the very end, I always had games with some sort of, you know, interesting ideas and, uh, and games that gave me great satisfaction. But I think it's what happened from 2005 up to these days was also very big, very big accomplishment since, you know, I had to find myself, to sort of relocate myself. Uh-

   8. LFLex Fridman16:28

      Yeah, rechannel the creative energies to do other pursuits.

   9. GKGarry Kasparov16:31

      Exactly, and, and to, to find something where I f- feel comfortable, even confident that my participation still makes the difference.

   10. LFLex Fridman16:41

       Beautifully put. So let me ask perhaps a silly question, but sticking on chess for just a little longer. Where do you put Magnus Carlsen, the current world champion, in the list of all-time greats? In terms of style, moments of brilliance, consistency.

   11. GKGarry Kasparov16:58

       It's a tricky question. You know, uh, the moment you start ranking-

   12. LFLex Fridman17:01

       Yeah.

   13. GKGarry Kasparov17:02

       ... a world champion-

   14. LFLex Fridman17:02

       You lose something.

   15. GKGarry Kasparov17:03

       It's the... I think it's, it's, it's not fair because it's the... any new generation knows much more about the game than-

   16. LFLex Fridman17:13

       Yes.

   17. GKGarry Kasparov17:14

       ... the previous one. So when people say, "Oh, Garry was the greatest, Fischer was the greatest, Magnus was the greatest," it disregard the fact that the great players of the past, whether Alaskair, Kapablanca, Alekhine, I mean, they knew so little about chess by today's standards. I mean, today, just any kid, you know, that spent few years, you know, in, w- uh, uh, uh... with his or her chess computer when... knows much more about the games, simply just because you ac- have access to this information. And it ha- it has been discovered generation after generation. We added more and more knowledge to the game of chess. It's about the gap between the world champion and the rest of the field. So it's the... Now, if you look at the gap, then probably Fischer, you know, could be on top. But very short period of time. Then you should also add a time factor.

   18. LFLex Fridman18:01

       Yeah.

   19. GKGarry Kasparov18:02

       I was on top, not as big as Fischer-

   20. LFLex Fridman18:04

       Very long time.

   21. GKGarry Kasparov18:04

       ... but, but much longer.

   22. LFLex Fridman18:05

       Yes.

   23. GKGarry Kasparov18:05

       So that's... So, and also, unlike Fischer, I was succee- I succeeded in beating next generation.

   24. LFLex Fridman18:11

       Yes. Here's the question.

   25. GKGarry Kasparov18:13

       Yeah.

   26. LFLex Fridman18:13

       Let's see if you still got the fire, speaking of the next generation, because you did succeed beating the next generation.

   27. GKGarry Kasparov18:18

       The next, it's close.

   28. LFLex Fridman18:19

       What?

   29. GKGarry Kasparov18:19

       Okay, Anand short, Anand, uh, uh, the... Sherukh... Kramnik is already 12 years younger. So that's the ne-

   30. LFLex Fridman18:25

       Yeah.
3. 30:00 – 45:00

   (laughs) …

   1. GKGarry Kasparov30:00

      machines were not weaker, at least, actually probably stronger than Deep Blue, um... And by the way, today, uh, chess app on your mobile phone-

   2. LFLex Fridman30:08

      (laughs)

   3. GKGarry Kasparov30:08

      ... is probably stronger than Deep Blue.

   4. LFLex Fridman30:10

      Than Deep Blue, right?

   5. GKGarry Kasparov30:10

      I'm not speaking of any- about chess engines that are so much superior. And by the way, when you analyze games we played against Deep Blue 1997 on your chess engine, they'll be laughing.

   6. LFLex Fridman30:20

      Yeah.

   7. GKGarry Kasparov30:20

      So this is, and it's also shows that's how chess changed, because, uh, chess commentators that look at some of our games, like game four, game five, "Brilliant idea!" Now, you ask, uh, um-

   8. LFLex Fridman30:33

      (laughs)

   9. GKGarry Kasparov30:33

      ... Stockfish, you ask-

   10. LFLex Fridman30:34

       Yeah.

   11. GKGarry Kasparov30:34

       ... Houdini, uh, you ask Commodore, all the leading chess engines.

   12. LFLex Fridman30:37

       Yeah.

   13. GKGarry Kasparov30:37

       Within 30 seconds, they will show you how many mistakes both Gary and Deep Blue made- (laughs)

   14. LFLex Fridman30:43

       (laughs)

   15. GKGarry Kasparov30:43

       ... (laughs) in the game that was, uh, uh-... uh, uh, trumpeted as the, as a great, uh, uh, chess match in 1997.

   16. LFLex Fridman30:51

       Well, okay. So, y- you've made an interesting... If you can untangle that comment. So now, in retrospect, it was a mistake to see chess as the peak of human intellect. Nevertheless, that was done for centuries. So, I mean-

   17. GKGarry Kasparov31:07

       In, by the way, in Europe.

   18. LFLex Fridman31:09

       Yeah.

   19. GKGarry Kasparov31:09

       Because, you know, you move to the Far East, they will go... They, they, they had shown-

   20. LFLex Fridman31:14

       Right. Games, games.

   21. GKGarry Kasparov31:15

       Again, some of the games like, you know, uh, uh, board games.

   22. LFLex Fridman31:20

       Yes.

   23. GKGarry Kasparov31:20

       Yes, so... Yeah, I agree.

   24. LFLex Fridman31:22

       So if I push back a little bit, so now y- you say that... Okay, but it was a mistake to see chess as the epitome. And now... And then now there's other things maybe, like language, like conversation. Like some of the things that, in your view, is still way out of reach of computers, but inside humans. Do you think... Can, can you talk about what those things might be? And do you think, just like chess, they might fall-

   25. GKGarry Kasparov31:48

       Um-

   26. LFLex Fridman31:49

       ... soon, with the same set of approaches, if you look at AlphaZero, the same kind of learning approaches as the machines grow in size?

   27. GKGarry Kasparov31:57

       No, no, it's not about growing in size. It's about, again, it's about, uh, understanding the difference between closed system and open-ended system.

   28. LFLex Fridman32:05

       So you think that key difference... So the board games are closed in terms of the, uh, the rules-

   29. GKGarry Kasparov32:10

       Rules, rules.

   30. LFLex Fridman32:11

       ... set, the actions-
4. 45:00 – 55:08

   Yes. …

   1. GKGarry Kasparov45:00

      at 80th anniversary of Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact.

   2. LFLex Fridman45:02

      Yes.

   3. GKGarry Kasparov45:02

      It's something that I believe, you know, just, you know, has... Must, must be taught in the schools. That the World War II, uh, uh, had been started by two dictators-

   4. LFLex Fridman45:11

      Yes.

   5. GKGarry Kasparov45:11

      ... by signing these, these, uh, criminal, criminal treaty. Collusion of two tyrants in August 1939 that led to the beginning of the World, World War II. And the fact is that eventually Stalin had no choice but to join Allies because Hitler a- attacked him. So it just doesn't, you know, uh, um, eliminate the fact that Stalin helped Hitler to start World War II and he was one of the beneficiaries at early e- at early stage by, uh, annexing, uh, part of Eastern Europe. And as a result of World War II, he annexed almost entire Eastern Europe and for many Eastern European nations, the end of the World War II was the beginning of, of Communist occupation.

   6. LFLex Fridman45:50

      Mm-hmm. So Putin, you've talked about as a man who stands between Russia and democracy, essentially, today. You've been a strong opponent and critic of Putin. Let me ask again, how much does fear enter your mind and heart? So in, in 2007, there's this interesting comment from Oleg Kalugin, KGB general. Uh, he said that, "I do not talk details. People who knew them are all dead now because they were vocal. I'm quiet. There's only one man who is vocal and he may be in trouble. World Chess Champion Kasparov. He has been very outspoken in his attacks on Putin and I believe he's probably next on the list." So clearly, your life has been, and perhaps continues to be, in danger. How do you think about having the views you have, the ideas you have, being in opposition as you are, in th- in this kind of context when your life could be in danger?

   7. GKGarry Kasparov46:55

      Uh, that's the reason I live in New York.

   8. LFLex Fridman46:58

      (laughs)

   9. GKGarry Kasparov46:58

      So it's the... Was not my first choice, but I knew I had to leave Russia at one point and, uh, among other places, New York is the safest. Is it safe? No. I mean, it's just... It's the... I know what happens, what happened, and what is happening with many of Putin enemies. But at the end of the day, I mean, what can I do? I mean, it's... I, uh, I could be very proactive by trying to change things I can influence, but here are where facts. I, uh, I cannot stop doing what I've been doing for a long time. It's the right thing to do. I grew up, you know, with my family teaching me sort of the wisdom of Soviet dissidents. "Do what you must and so be it." I could try to be cautious by not traveling to certain places where, you know, my security could be at risk. Uh, there's so many invitations to speak at different locations in the world and I have to say that, uh, many countries are just now... Are not destinations that I can afford to travel. Uh, my mother still lives in Moscow. I meet her a few times a year. She was devastated when I had to leave Russia because... Since my father died in, uh, 1971, so she was 33 and she dedicated her entire life to her only son. But she recognized, you know, just year or so since I left Russia, that it was the only chance for me to continue my normal life. So just is to... I mean, to be relatively safe and to, to do what she taught me to do, to make a difference.

   10. LFLex Fridman48:35

       Do you think you will ever return to Russia? Or let me ask a different way-

   11. GKGarry Kasparov48:39

       Oh, sure.

   12. LFLex Fridman48:39

       When will you return to Russia?

   13. GKGarry Kasparov48:40

       Even sooner than many people think, because I think Putin's regime is facing insurmountable diff- uh, d- difficulties. And, uh, again, I read enough historical books to know that dictatorships, they, they end... Suddenly. It's just, on Sunday, dictator feels comfortable, he believes he's popular. On Monday morning-... his, his bust. There's good news and bad news. I mean, the, the bad new is that I don't know when and how Putin rule ends. The good news, he also doesn't know.

   14. LFLex Fridman49:17

       (laughs) Okay, well put. Let me ask, um, a question that seems to preoccupy the American mind from the perspective of Russia. One, did Russia interfere in the 2016 US election, government sanctioned? And future, two, will Russia interfere in the 2020 US election? And what does that interference look like?

   15. GKGarry Kasparov49:45

       It's very odd, you know. We had such an intelligent conversation.

   16. LFLex Fridman49:48

       (laughs)

   17. GKGarry Kasparov49:50

       And, and you are ruining everything by asking such a stupid question.

   18. LFLex Fridman49:54

       (laughs)

   19. GKGarry Kasparov49:54

       It's just-

   20. LFLex Fridman49:55

       It's been going downhill the entire way.

   21. GKGarry Kasparov49:57

       ... it almost, it's, it's, yeah, but it's, it's, it's, it's insulting for my intellect.

   22. LFLex Fridman50:00

       Okay.

   23. GKGarry Kasparov50:01

       Of course, they did interfere.

   24. LFLex Fridman50:02

       (laughs)

   25. GKGarry Kasparov50:03

       Of course they did absolu- everything to elect Trump. I mean, they said it many times. It is just, you know-

   26. LFLex Fridman50:08

       Yeah.

   27. GKGarry Kasparov50:08

       ... I met enough KGB colonels in my life to tell you that, you know, just the way Putin looks at Trump.

   28. LFLex Fridman50:14

       Yeah.

   29. GKGarry Kasparov50:15

       This is the way, looks, and I don't have to hear what he says, what Trump says, you know, just is, I don't need to go through con- congressional investigations. The way Putin looks at Trump is the way the KGB officers looked at their assets. It's just, and falling to 2020, of course they will do absolutely everything to help Trump to survive because I think the damage that Trump's reelection could cause to America and to the free world, it's just, it's beyond one's imagination. I think basically if Trump is reelected, he will ruin NATO, because he's already heading in this direction. But now he's just, he's still limited by the reelection, uh, uh, hurdles. Uh, if he's still in the office after, uh, November 2020, okay, January 2021, um, I don't want to think about it. My problem is not just Trump, because Trump is basically a symptom. But the problem is that I don't see, it's just, it's the (laughs) in American political horizon, uh, politicians who could take on Trump, uh, um, for, for all damage that he's doing for the free world, not just things that just happened that went wrong in America. So there's the, it seems to me that the campaign, political campaign on the Democratic side is, is fixed on certain important but still secondary issues.

   30. LFLex Fridman51:37

       Mm.

Episode duration: 55:23