Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan: The Greatest of All Time | Lex Fridman Podcast #260

John Danaher 0:00 Humans are fascinated by violence, and you've got to ask yourself why.

Lex Fridman 0:05 Is it the rash guard?

John Danaher 0:06 Yes.

Georges St-Pierre 0:07 (laughs)

Gordon Ryan 0:07 And I talk so much shit that I'm like, "Man, if I lose, th- this is gonna be rough."

John Danaher 0:11 You're learning this, shut the fuck up.

Lex Fridman 0:13 (clicks tongue) I got you, man.

John Danaher 0:14 You are powered by McDonald's and Coca-Cola.

Lex Fridman 0:16 I want more.

Gordon Ryan 0:17 And then I smacked him, and he didn't wanna fight anymore.

Georges St-Pierre 0:19 Uh, I'm not impressed by your Coca-Cola.

Lex Fridman 0:21 (laughs)

Gordon Ryan 0:22 I don't need the junk.

Lex Fridman 0:22 If Georges St-Pierre and Khabib Nurmagomedov face each other in their prime, who wins? I'm here with three individuals, each of whom are considered by many to be the greatest of all time in each of their respective disciplines. The greatest MMA fighter of all time, Georges St-Pierre. The greatest martial arts coach of all time, John Danaher. And the greatest submission grappler of all time, Gordon Ryan.

Lex Fridman 0:55 So, let me ask the first question. You guys didn't see the question, no preparation here. What is the key to your success, each of you? One thing or multiple things that come to mind. John, go first.

John Danaher 1:07 (laughs)

Georges St-Pierre 1:08 (laughs)

Lex Fridman 1:08 (laughs) Um, is it the rash guard?

John Danaher 1:15 Yes.

Lex Fridman 1:16 (laughs)

John Danaher 1:17 Um...

Georges St-Pierre 1:18 (laughs) I like that you choose John right off the bat.

Lex Fridman 1:20 He seemed the most nervous (laughs) .

Georges St-Pierre 1:22 Please inspire us to- to- to give the right answer (laughs) .

John Danaher 1:26 For- for me, it's about, um, finding a way to work in a world where most of the answers are already known. Okay? In- in- in any developed sport, by the time you enter that sport, most of the basic precepts, the- w- the, uh, the- the major techniques, the- the major mechanical understandings of the sport are long since worked out. And so, in a highly developed world, the key to success is to be able to identify some area of the industry that you're in which is currently undervalued.

Lex Fridman 2:08 So, do what the other people are not doing.

John Danaher 2:10 Deeper than that. You're- you're... Everyone has a view of, okay, th- these are the- th- the main skills of the industry I work in. At any given time, some set of skills, attributes, um, will always be somewhat undervalued. They're underappreciated by the people in the game. You see that at any... In- in any given industry, there are always trends which change, uh, the- the nature of the industry over time. So, uh, fashion trends, uh, in- in the clothing industry, you'll see. At any given time, there's a- a- a- a general wave of fashion which pushes most of the people in the industry in a given direction at a given time. What makes people stand out is the ability to look at the various possibilities out there and say, "Here is something which is genuinely useful, but which is currently being underused, underutilized, and I want to bring that back in and develop it." And because it's an inherently useful product, it will be very, very successful in its initial applications against people who aren't currently using it. Um, if you can do this in whate- ever industry you're in, I believe you'll be highly successful.

Lex Fridman 3:33 So, this applies both for actual specific, like, techniques and the...

John Danaher 3:38 Also tactics as well, in the case of- o- o- of jiu-jitsu. So, for example, in my sport, leg locks have always been around, okay? There's- there's no shortage of people, you can look back in history, who are applying leg locks. Nonetheless, as in across the industry, leg locks were undervalued and underappreciated. There was a general sense in which most of the leading figures of the sport, uh, for most of the history of the sport of jiu-jitsu tended to de-emphasize leg locks. And, uh, when I looked at them, I said there w- there was immense potential, but it wasn't being realized, and needed to be changed. Um, since then, that has more or less occurred. Now, most people coming into the sport understand that leg locks are an important aspect, and they're no longer undervalued. If anything, it's gone too far the other way. Now, perhaps they're a little overvalued. Um, and the... Uh, this kind of, uh, fashion trend exists in every industry. And the job of anyone who wants to excel in a given industry is to be able to identify, okay, what are the things that are currently out of fashion and undervalued? And then look at what is their actual objective value, and then work, uh, to- to, uh, to bring them back to the forefront.

Lex Fridman 4:55 So, John brought up fashion. Uh, Georges is wearing a really sexy shirt, so...

Georges St-Pierre 5:00 (laughs)

Lex Fridman 5:01 Uh, assuming that's not the reason, is there, um... Is- is there something that comes to mind as the key to the success of your incredible career?

Georges St-Pierre 5:08 Well, o- of course, e- everybody knows the famous answer that every athletes r- are saying, "Oh, it could be genetic. I'm- I was maybe gifted, had certain predisposition, I worked really hard." But I think something that people don't talk enough is, when everybody sometime go right, I was never afraid to try to go left. And I failed many time trying to do things that were not, uh, uh, known to be things that would br- brought me, brought me success, but I- I- I tried it. You know, I- I was... Very often, I was the first of trying new things, and I failed many time. But certain times, it gives me a certain advantage. And, um, for example, I was sometime fighting guys that had much better wrestling background than- than me on paper. And nobody before...... that fought those guys. Never, nobody had dared to try to take them down because their wrestling pedigree were so good. And I didn't have, on paper, the wrestling pedigree to take these guys down in, in a fight. But when everybody tried to go right, I was going left. I, I, I, I fought them in a different way and that was the blueprint to beat cert- some of these guys. You know what I mean? You know what I mean? So...

Lex Fridman 6:34 Yeah. So we'll actually talk about a few fights where you did just that. That's, it's fascinating. Um, but let, let's say at the high level. So Gordon, again, sticking on fashion. May I compliment your incredible badass hat?

Gordon Ryan 6:46 I'm trying to fit in here. (laughs)

Georges St-Pierre 6:49 (laughs)

Lex Fridman 6:49 We should say we're in Texas now, so he's, uh, be- become a Texan overnight. Uh, so what, is there something you can speak to that you would, uh, attribute to as the key to your success?

Gordon Ryan 6:59 Yeah. So first of all, there has to be a rule where you don't ask us all the same questions, because how am I supposed to compete with the answer John just gave?

Lex Fridman 7:05 (laughs)

Gordon Ryan 7:06 That was like ... There's nothing I can do that's gonna top that.

Lex Fridman 7:08 Yeah.

Gordon Ryan 7:08 Um, but, uh, I, I think it's, uh, a, a ... There's many things, but I think the number one thing is just, is John. Um, when I came in, uh, I was a blue belt, and I was beating brown and black belts in competition already. Uh, but he really changed my way of thinking about the sport. I would just come in, and if something wasn't working, I would just do it harder and faster and more aggressively. And that just degenerated me into a, degenerated into me spastically knee-sliding into cross hashi garami against Eddie Cummings for six months and then just getting heel hooked repeatedly. And, uh, I'm like, "This is not working." And Eddie, like, when I met him, was like a chubby, librarian-looking guy. And I'm like, there's n- I'm like 6'2", like a jacked, like 170. And I'm like, "There's no way I'm losing to a guy who looks like this." But he just kept heel hooking me. So I would just go harder and harder, and it wouldn't work. And then John's like, "Well, if you learned leg locks, you might, you might have some more success." And then I was like, "Yeah, that probably makes sense." And, uh, from then on, I kinda just changed the, the way I thought about the sport. Instead of doing things, doing things harder, I would actually try to get better at jujitsu.

Lex Fridman 8:10 Do you remember like a turning point where you became, as opposed to being mediocre, not just in technique, but in approach to, uh, to great?

Gordon Ryan 8:22 Um, I think it was somewhere around brown belt level, when I was training consistently. Started training full time with John when I was purple belt, mid-level purple belt. Um, and towards the end of my brown belt, uh, days, I was beating up like legitimate, like ADCC champions in the gym. Um, so I think like brown to black belt was a big thing for me. And then when I won my first EBI and I was, I submitted Iury, who won ADCC, and I beat Roustam. Um, so I think that was like my turning point as a competitor. But I think I started to, to reach world level a little bit before that, I think somewhere around brown belt. Mid-level to late-level brown belt.

Lex Fridman 8:57 So was, is some of that mental? Like was there a moment when you, uh, like after a training session, you realized, "I can actually do this. Like I could be at the top of the world."

Gordon Ryan 9:08 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 9:08 Like world class?

Gordon Ryan 9:09 The, the critical moment for me was when, uh ... I think it was right, right when I got my black belt, or maybe a few months before I got my black belt. Uh, we had a former ADCC champion come into the gym, and, uh, we did a hard round together, and I think I submitted him like four or five times. And, uh, no one knew who I was. I never won anything up until that point. And I was like, "Okay, like if this is like one of the best guys in the world and I could submit him multiple times around, I think that this is like something that I actually could do professionally and make a, make a career out of this."

Lex Fridman 9:40 Okay, so the actual performance was the ... Like you don't need to, um, believe before you can perform. Like a lot of Olympic gold medalists, they s- they have to believe before they can perform. Because like they're g- they're getting their ass kicked for a long, long, long time.

Gordon Ryan 9:57 Yeah, I think ... But the best way for me to believe in something is to have repeated success doing it against high-level guys. Like I'm not gonna just believe I can do a double leg if I can't hit a double leg on anybody. Um, so for me, the, the belief came from the repeated success in the gym.

Lex Fridman 10:11 Yeah, but to get to the point where you're submitting somebody like Iury Simoes, like one of the, the greatest grapplers ever, it's like a long journey.

Gordon Ryan 10:19 Yeah. But the ... I had, I had the confidence, I had the belief in myself because of the success that I had in the gym prior to that-

Lex Fridman 10:25 Got it.

Gordon Ryan 10:26 ... to that event.

Lex Fridman 10:26 Even ... And it's one step at a time.

Gordon Ryan 10:28 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 10:28 First it's the brown belts, then it's the black belts.

Gordon Ryan 10:30 Exactly.

Lex Fridman 10:30 Then it's world class. Okay. Um, Georges, was there a turning point for you when you th- you thought like, "I can actually do this?"

Georges St-Pierre 10:38 Yes. I, um, I always dreamed to become champion. But I think the turning point that ... There was, there, there was two turning point, and, and they were my two losses. Uh, first, uh, my losses to Matt Hughes. I went into that fight just to not lose. I, I was not fighting to win. And it's after the fight, when I watched the, the replay of the fight, I realized, I was like, "I was doing pretty well." But during the fight, in my own mind, I was not seeing it that way. I, I, I thought I was getting dominated by Hughes, like 100%. But when I watched the replay, I was like, "Man, I can, I can beat this guy."

Lex Fridman 11:23 Hmm.

Georges St-Pierre 11:24 I was beating him until I made that stupid mistake, so it- it ... I was very frustrating, but, but I w- that's what gave me the, mentally, the, the, the championship level men- mentality. And then I became a little bit overconfident because I, I start beating everybody after that. And I start to believe the hype of people. When they look at me, they were like, "Oh, he's the new up-and-coming superstar, and he's gonna be unstoppable." And, and then when I became champion, I, I lost to, to, to Matt, to Matt Serra. So before I, I believe my first failure was because I had a lack of confidence. And-And my second failure was, I was, because I was over confident. So, I think it's, there is a perfect, uh, center of confidence. I mean, I mean, it's good to be confident 'cause, uh, like, John taught me, like, confidence, it's, it's like money in your bank account if you... You can have all the skills in, in the world, right? And, and, and if you're a... If you don't have the confidence, it's like you... It's like, uh, uh, you can, you can be a millionaire but you don't have access to your bank account. So, so, it's th- that's a little bit the analogy that John told me. So, that's how I feel e- confidence plays for an athlete. But to be over-confident, I think it's always good to, to be aware, to be afraid of what can happen. And so, to have a, a perfect balance of confidence and fear, to me, that's what mentally gave me the edge to become, uh, I believe, successful in my sport.

Gordon Ryan 13:02 Playing off that, uh, John gave me a speech one time, and he was like, "You have to be able to, like, flip a switch and turn it off." Where, like, a guy like Mayweather or someone who goes out who's super confident, and he plays the character of someone who's like, "No one can beat me. I'm the best that there ever was," and, and that's it. Um, but if you look at him, he actually trains very hard. You can't, you can't play the persona of, "No one can beat me," and then have it translate into your life, and just think that you're so good that you don't have to do anything, and no one could ever beat you. You have to be able to play that public persona of, "No one can beat me," but then you have to actually do the training to make that happen. You can't just... You can't believe your own hype and say, say that, "You know, I can just do whatever I want and no one's ever gonna beat me." You have to be able to switch between the persona and the actual athlete. And that made a big difference for me.

Lex Fridman 13:46 It's tough because, um, like, you're... You, you dominate such a large fraction of the world in, in grappling, and George too. There's the perfect dominance after those two. Um, it's hard for the confidence not to just... Like, how do you avoid the confidence not becoming a thing that weighs you down, where it completely, um, deludes your mind?

Gordon Ryan 14:11 Um, for me, it's just, well, number one, the guys in the gym are so tough. So, the guys in the, guys in the gym that I train with are always, like, nipping at my bud and always giving me new ch- new problems to solve. Um, and for me, it's really just about trying to learn new stuff over time. Um, so that, that keeps it interesting for me and it's not really about, um... You know, no one can beat me. I don't have to train or have to do whatever... I can do whatever I want. Uh, it's more of, what keeps me in the gym is more about the fact that I'm learning new stuff all the time. I'm working on something new, and progressing to new levels at all times. Um, it's not I don't just come in and do the same thing over and over again, and, uh, that gets boring. You just come in and you don't learn anything new, and you just do the same stuff for years at a time. And, go, "Okay, this is boring." But when you have new stuff to work on, and new goals, short-term and long-term goals to reach, then it makes it interesting.

Georges St-Pierre 14:57 It's, um... For me, it's a little bit like, uh, Gordon says. Is, is the fear... 'Cause sometime in the gym, uh, even before when I was competing, I was, I was getting my butt kicked. But I don't care what happened in the gym. I mean, it, it hit my ego, of course, because I'm a proud person. I'm a competitor, even in the gym. But it's not a malicious competish- com- competition in between each other. When you fight, you have to be malicious. You go there to hurt the guy. But it, it hit, it hit me in terms of my pride when I get m- beat in the gym, of course. But that fear that I don't want it to happen in public, especially not during a fight. That what keeps, help me keeps the balance between confidence and, and, and, and fear. You know what I mean? It's kind of weird. It's a mix-

Gordon Ryan 15:44 Yeah.

Georges St-Pierre 15:44 ... it's a mixture of both that I believe... I, to me, helped me, uh, succeed. To have the right, uh, mindset to, to fight.

Gordon Ryan 15:54 And I talk so much shit that I'm like, "Man, if I lose-

Georges St-Pierre 15:57 (laughs)

Gordon Ryan 15:57 ... this is gonna be, this is gonna be rough." So...

Lex Fridman 15:59 Yeah. You put a lot of... I mean, that's, that's a hard thing to do when you talk shit. When you, when you play the heel, is so much-

Gordon Ryan 16:07 You have to perform.

Lex Fridman 16:08 ... e- the pressure is... I mean, you have to be good under pressure. It's the Conor McGregor thing.

Gordon Ryan 16:13 You know, the reason I actually started talking shit was actually, like, indirectly because of George.

Lex Fridman 16:19 (laughs)

Gordon Ryan 16:19 Because, because I won-

Lex Fridman 16:21 I will become the opposite of George. (laughs)

Gordon Ryan 16:22 I won, I won my first EBI, and I, I didn't talk shit. And everyone was like, being like, "Oh, you know, he only beat Yuri because, um, because he was tired," or, uh, you know, this or that. "And if they had the rematch under any of the rules, that he would've lost." And I'm, like, trying to figure out what I'm gonna do. So, I'm scrolling through George's feed one day, and he posted a clip of him beating someone. And I look at the comments, and I'm... With this in mind, I'm like, "George is the nicest person of all time." And if you look at the comments, it's like 10,000 comments, and like 9,900 are just people calling him, like, "All you do is lay and pray, you pussy. You suck-"

Lex Fridman 16:59 (laughs)

Gordon Ryan 16:59 "... you can't finish anybody." And I'm just, I'm looking at this and I'm like, "People are gonna say what they're gonna say regardless."

Georges St-Pierre 17:05 (laughs)

Gordon Ryan 17:05 "They're gonna talk shit regardless, so you may as well just say whatever you want, and then just be yourself."

Lex Fridman 17:11 Is there some aspect this... I mentioned Conor McGregor. He, uh, he crossed the line with Khabib, at least in the eyes of Khabib. Is there something you ever regret about crossing a line, or does that... Do you ever feel like there is a line, or do you just keep pushing the line?

Gordon Ryan 17:27 Uh, I, I basically play it per, per person. I just, I, I basically fire back with, like, one step above what, what they do.

Lex Fridman 17:34 It's always plus one.

Gordon Ryan 17:35 Yeah, yeah.

Lex Fridman 17:36 Okay. (laughs) Um-

Gordon Ryan 17:39 So, I go, I usually go hard, like they fire a bullet, then I drop a duke.

Lex Fridman 17:42 Right.

Gordon Ryan 17:42 And then, and then after that initial shot, then we go back and forth, and I'll just keep one-upping them.

Lex Fridman 17:48 So, you know, there's a lot of people that love you, but there's also a lot of people that love to hate you.

Gordon Ryan 17:53 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 17:54 Is... So, like, what... Do those people, like, energize you, or do you just... Uh, or is it funny to you? Like, what... As an athlete, as a performer, do you just not think about them? It's like a fun thing outside of yourself?

Gordon Ryan 18:07 It's like a, it's like a, it's just like a fun thing that keeps me occupied. Like, because, like, 'cause most of them that, like, talk shit, they, like, just say stuff that's factually incorrect, so then I just argue with, like, actual statistics.

Lex Fridman 18:17 Yeah.

Gordon Ryan 18:18 And it's just like..."You suck," or, "You're not gonna beat this person." I'm like, "I've already submitted that guy." Um, so it just... It riles them up and it just, it's just a fun thing for me to do on my, on my downtime.

Lex Fridman 18:28 Yeah, your responses are usually very factual. It's very scientific.

Gordon Ryan 18:32 (laughs)

Lex Fridman 18:32 (laughs) I appreciate... (laughs) Like you, you actually... You start by talking trash, but then you respond with science.

Gordon Ryan 18:38 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 18:38 It's great. Okay.

Gordon Ryan 18:39 So it's a good mix.

Lex Fridman 18:40 It's a good mix. Um, I mean, on the topic of haters, or more specifically sort of doubts within yourself, or doubts around you, as you're coming up, um... M- maybe Georges can comment. I'm just gonna ignore John completely in this conversation.

Georges St-Pierre 18:57 (laughs) .

Lex Fridman 18:57 (laughs) . I, I was gonna ask you another question, but let me just ask you on this, on this topic, um,

Lex Fridman 19:02 are there times in your life you had to... Y- you were surrounded by people that, that doubted you?

Georges St-Pierre 19:07 Oh, all the time.

Lex Fridman 19:08 And so what's... Is there something you could say as... In, by way of advice how you overcome-

Georges St-Pierre 19:14 Uh.

Lex Fridman 19:14 ... the doubt, either yourself or others around you?

Georges St-Pierre 19:17 I... All the time, uh, f- f- the first time I, I manifest my desire to become a professional mixed martial art athlete, everybody doubt me. Just not even... I'm not talking about UFC, just to become a professional fighter, everybody doubt me. Then I became a, (laughs) I became a professional fighter. I had few amateur fight, I won them all. Then I, I fought my first fight in, in, uh, Montreal, I won, and I became a professional. Then I, I told people that I wanted to fight in UFC, everybody doubt me again. So (laughs) it's a normal thing. So I worked my way up, beat a few guys. Then I... At the time, uh, Pete Spratt was, uh... Just knocked, knocked out Robbie Lawler with leg kick. And, uh, the person who was my agent at the time did a great move, uh, for me. So he brought Pete Spratt in Montreal to fight me. Pete Spratt came to Montreal. I... And I believe he didn't know who I was, so he thought that he was coming to collect a, an easy paycheck, and I, and I am... End up beating him. So that gave me the opportunity to fight in UFC. Then after I was in UFC, I wanted to become champion of the world, you know? But Matt Hughes was there, and he seems invincible at the time. So everybody doubt me again, and I became world champion. And after, when you... When I was world champion, I wanted to be... I was competing against other world champion of other weight class for the, the title, you know, for the legacy and everything. So I was not... No longer competing as my opponent. I was, you know... As a competitor, you always... You, you never wanted to be... You never want to be satisfied. Because when... Satisfaction is the death. You know, when you're satisfied, you better retire, because it's, it's over. So always, I have to find motivation, what you can have more. I want more. Don't be satisfied in life. So I wanted to be, like, the best, you know? I want... So I was competing, you know, like to, to become the, the best and, and... And, of course, people doubt, doubt you all the time. Every time you s- you say something that it's outside of the norm, of the normality... I don't wanna say... There, there's nothing normal, but I'm talking about when you, you manifest your desire to do something that takes special attribute to, to, to succeed or, or that is something that is hard to, to do, it's... For sure you're gonna always have people that doubt you.

Lex Fridman 21:43 It's so strange that people don't, they don't lean in to supporting... Like people that love you too.

Georges St-Pierre 21:48 Yeah, even people that love me used to doubt me. And I believe I, I... You need to use that as a positive thi- positive thing, as a motivation-

Lex Fridman 21:59 Yeah.

Georges St-Pierre 21:59 ... to prove them wrong.

Lex Fridman 22:00 Yeah.

Georges St-Pierre 22:01 So for me, that, that was the thing, uh, when someone doubt me, nothing gave me more this... More energy, because I want to prove him wrong, I want to look at him in the face and say, "Hey, you see? (clicks tongue) I got you, man. I, I did it."

Lex Fridman 22:15 So, uh, John, do you ever use this in one way or the other by saying, "I don't think you can do this," to motivate them to pro- to prove you wrong? Or more general question of, um, you know, uh, the, the mental toughness required to achieve, or confidence required to achieve greatness? Like, what's your role as a coach when you have these two athletes?

John Danaher 22:35 With regards to your, your first question, would I ever say to someone, "You can't do this," as a kind of reverse psychology? Uh, no. Um, uh, my job is to prepare people first and foremost with their skills. And, uh, as Gordon pointed out earlier, if you're in any way a rational human being, and you're noticing that you're getting tremendous success with a given move in the gym against high level opponents who give a good read on what your actual opponent in a competition is, is like, you would have to be a moron to not recognize that kind of success and say, "This is something I should be building into my game," and you will carry the confidence that you earned in the gym into the arena. So I never try to use re- reverse psychology. I'd, I'd build up, uh... Everything I do in terms of confidence is to give people physical skills. I know people say, "Oh, there's physicality on the one hand, and there's mentality on the other," and confidence is squarely in the, the mental aspect of the game. But all the underpinnings and beginnings of confidence are physical. Okay? A, a rational human being will see where they're having success and where they're having failure, and confidence will, uh, surround those areas where they're having success and will degenerate in cases where they're, they're having, uh, failure. So my job as a coach is to set them up for success in the gym with a given set of skills, and I don't have to do anything psychologically after that. I just... If, if I can set you up to be highly successful with a given move or a set of tactics 10 times in a row against quality opposition in the gym, I don't have to do a damn thing when it comes to instilling confidence. I, I, I will tell people, "Hey, you're doing a really good job with that move. It's working well for you." But-... when they nod in agreement, I'm not trying to force anything on them. They're recognized, they were, they already recognized that long before the words came out of my mouth. But on the other hand, intelligent, rational people will recognize when they're failing with given moves, and no amount of talk on my part can ever change that. If I teach Gordon, uh, a given arm lock, and 15 times in a row, he tries it over a month, and all 15 are failures, there's nothing I can say verbally to come up to Gordon and say, "Hey, you're really good at that move." He's gonna look at me and say, "Bullshit, I'm, I'm terrible at it." And that will create a crisis of confidence where Gordon no longer believes the words coming out of my mouth. So I will never compromise that.

Lex Fridman 25:18 But isn't there a line, you just said 15, there, you have to believe that, uh, doing this arm lock f- 15 times over a period of a month is worth it, because eventually you might get it. Like-

John Danaher 25:31 Yeah, that, that's a separate issue. That, that's a separate issue. The, um... there are times where I've more or less pushed athletes to go in a certain direction. For example, um, when I first met Garry Tonon, he never had a guillotine strangle. And I, I would say to him, "Garry, you know, you're a scrambler. Like, one of the greatest weapons a scrambler can ever develop is a guillotine. Like, it should be in your arsenal." And he was like, "Eh, no, I just scramble for the back." And I said, "Well, there's gonna be a day you can't take someone's back, and it's always good to be able to strangle from front and back, okay?" Of course, we all prefer our strangles from the back, that makes sense, but there's gonna come a day where it's gonna be useful for you. And so that was one of the few times where I put my foot down and said, "You're learning this, shut the fuck up." And, um, uh-

Georges St-Pierre 26:21 (laughs) He, like, literally wouldn't teach him any, uh, anything else until he got a guillotine. G- Garry would, like, ask him a question, he's like, "Let's see your guillotine."

Lex Fridman 26:26 (laughs)

John Danaher 26:29 And, um, for the first three months, uh, as gifted as, as Garry Tonon is in learning most moves, most moves Garry gets it, like, i- in, in minutes. There was something going on with Garry just couldn't get a guillotine on people. And, uh, finally, after around three months, he started having some success, until ultimately, it became one of his best weapons. Um, we had to go through, like, 15 different variations of guillotine, until he found one which actually worked reliably for him. And that was one of the few times where I put my foot down and said, "No, you, you have to learn this."

Lex Fridman 27:03 So the long search had to do more with the physical characteristics-

John Danaher 27:06 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 27:06 ... like, he couldn't figure out the right-

John Danaher 27:07 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 27:07 ... kind of-

John Danaher 27:07 Like, it made sense, it made sense in the case of Garry Tonon, because there were more opportunities per minute of his grappling for guillotines, uh, that the investment in time was worth it. For another athlete, I might have said, "Well, he hardly ever gets in a situation for front headlongs or guillotines, so it's not even worth investing the training time."

Lex Fridman 27:25 Let me ask you a question on the, on the competition side. You mentioned haters. And do you think about this aspect of the competition with the athletes?

John Danaher 27:33 It, it, that's a great question, and, um, the answer is no.

Lex Fridman 27:36 (laughs)

John Danaher 27:38 Um... uh, I'm... you can see that you could, you couldn't find two more polar opposites, psychologically than, than George St-Pierre and, uh, this monstrosity on my left. And, um, I've, I've never said to my athletes, "Hey, I think this is the sort of demeanor you should carry yourself with." I'm, myself, a very flawed character, and I'm the last person on Earth who should be delving out moral advice to other people. Um, the only thing is that I, I, you know, of course I believe some things are off limits, but as long as it's done in the context of sport where no one's physically attacking people or doing anything crazy where it just goes completely over the top, then, uh, I, I give almost zero, um, moral advice to my athletes. I'm a judo coach, not a preacher.

Georges St-Pierre 28:29 Lex, I, I, if I can, if I may, we, we are entertainers, you know? We're, we're athletes, we're professional athlete, but we make, we, we make a living because of people are, want to see us perform. Same thing an actor, same thing a singer. And a lot of the time, es- especially in the fight game, uh, uh, an event is promoted, it needs to be with emotion. Love me, hate me, but do not ignore me. Um, and, you know, it, it, when it's authentic and, uh, uh, and, i- i- and it- and it- it's done well, I think me, my personally, my, my favorite fighters to watch are the one that are the, that ha- uh, that have a s- some sort of a bad persona. I really enjoy wa- watching those guys, because they bring a, an emotion element into a fight, which is great, you know? I, I, I, I feel, to me, it's more interesting to watch when there is emotion involved. And I believe that's why some fighters make more money than (laughs) others, you know? You know what I mean? That's the reason why we make, we can make a living o- out of this.

Lex Fridman 29:41 Yeah, they're better entertainers. But you're right, the authenticity seems to be really important there.

Georges St-Pierre 29:45 Mm-hmm.

John Danaher 29:46 There's actually something very interesting there. Um, it's time to break out some, some secrets.

Georges St-Pierre 29:50 (laughs)

John Danaher 29:52 Do you know who... like, like you think of George St-Pierre, you think of, like, the highly technical, polished martial artist.

Georges St-Pierre 29:59 Oh, this is gonna be great.

John Danaher 30:00 Do you know who his favorite fighters to watch were? You'd probably be thinking, oh, probably someone who's really technically advanced, uh. Actually, it was Mark Coleman-

Lex Fridman 30:13 Oh, no.

John Danaher 30:14 ... Kevin Randleman, and Phil Baroni. He used to love watching them. That was The Hammer House, that was (laughs) his favorite.

Lex Fridman 30:20 Wow.

John Danaher 30:20 He would love those guys.

Lex Fridman 30:22 (laughs)

John Danaher 30:22 And, uh, whenever their fights were on, George would be watching The Hammer House crew.

Lex Fridman 30:26 Oh.

John Danaher 30:26 And, um, uh, it's funny what you said about how that, those guys brought a, an intensity to, to MMA that was off the charts. If you ever met those guys in-... uh, in, in their prime. Let me tell you, it was, it was something to behold. And, um-

Lex Fridman 30:43 (laughs)

John Danaher 30:43 ... they had this crazy, larger than life personality that, most of the things they did made no sense whatsoever. But-

Lex Fridman 30:50 I mean, technically.

John Danaher 30:50 ... but that was their appeal.

Lex Fridman 30:52 Yeah.

John Danaher 30:52 A- a- and there were these guys, and, and George loved to watch them more than anyone else.

Lex Fridman 30:56 They just swing

Georges St-Pierre 30:56 You never knew what-

Lex Fridman 30:57 ... walk forward.

Georges St-Pierre 30:57 ... what could happen with these guys. I remember when Mark Coleman won the Pride Grand Prix, I was in my living room, I was jumping, I was so happy. I was like, "Yeah!"

Lex Fridman 31:05 (laughs)

Georges St-Pierre 31:06 He beat Igor Varche- Varchevchin, I was like, f- I, like, for, to me, it was amazing, you know what I mean? (laughs) Because of the emotion that they, they brought to the, the fight.

John Danaher 31:16 George, I was actually very, um, interested by something you said there. Normally, when I, um, ask, "What is the appeal of a given fighter?" Um, and, "What makes people watch a fight?" You s- you talked about the idea that fighters are entertainers, and that's absolutely correct, they, they are. Um, it's this weird, weird industry, where you're, you're both an athlete and an entertainer, and you need to be successful in both regards to become, uh, financially successful. In so far as, uh, your favorite athletes to, to watch, at least, were people who are almost like the polar opposite-

Georges St-Pierre 31:53 Yeah.

John Danaher 31:53 ... of who you are. Um, I've always said that most people, if you look at, uh, say, a million people watch a pay-per-view event, what percentage of those million people have a genuine technical understanding of what's happening as they watch a fight? It's tiny. It's absolutely tiny. The vast majority of people who watch a professional fight have almost no technical understanding of what's going on in front of them. So, how do they relate to the fight? What's the only way they can? It's through emotion. And so when they get a sense that these two don't like each other, then they can relate to the fight. But only a tiny percentage of people watching a given professional fight can relate to it on a technical level. The overwhelming majority will always form an emotional attachment to the fight. That's why when you see things, shows like UFC Primetime, they never focus on tactics and the techniques of the fight. They focus on the emotional elements, the b- preparation, the, the view of their own family members as athletes "Get ready." It's always an emotional pull, because that's how 99% of the viewers relate to the fight. If I had n- think about chess, okay? If I have minimal knowledge of two world champions coming to, to fight each other in a, a, or match up against each other in a, in a game of chess, I know so little about chess tactics, and I, I can't really form any kind of technical appreciation of what's going on on the board. But if you tell me that these two chess players hate each other's guts, and they've got a rivalry which goes back five years, and they've said this and that about each other in public, then suddenly, I'm, my ears prick up, and I'm like, "Oh, okay, this sounds interesting." Um, because I, I just don't have the, the knowledge to appreciate what's going on on the board in a chess game to be able to, to appreciate the, uh, the technical nuances of what they're doing. So, any interest that I have in the chess match is gonna have to come from some kind of emotional level, 'cause I'm just not qualified to make technical assessments. And that's exactly how it is in the case of both grappling and mixed martial arts. That's why the ones who evoke the most attention are always the ones who can form some kind of emotional appeal. Conor McGregor was the all-time master of this.

Georges St-Pierre 34:18 I, I believe, also, emotion can be used as a weapon. For example, I've learned, I've learned this from... My favorite boxer is Sugar Ray Leonard. Sugar Ray Leonard, I remember, I was very young, so I, I watched his fight later, when I was older, but I know that Sugar Ray Leonard was the best boxer of his era, to me, personally. And I don't think nobody could beat him. I think he was skill, skill-wise, he was the best. However, when he fought in Montreal, Roberto Duran, Roberto Duran... m- m- m- made it in a way that Leonard became very emotional. He wanted to stand in front of Duran and fight a different fight that, than he normally does, because he wanted to show that he's a man. And he lost that fight, which was a mistake. So by, by... Then later on, he beat Roberto Duran in, uh, quite easy, you know, the f- the fa- you m- everybody remember the no mask thing. But my point is, emotion can be used in a way that it can make your, d- derail your opponent out of his game plan. And I felt a lot of my opponent trying to do that with me. So that's why I never got involved. That was my way to defend myself against, uh, some kind of bullying, i- to put like a, like a shield in front. But some other guy, like, uh, um, Gordon, he, he, he expressed himself differently. Of course, there's a language barrier, but for him, he's better at giving, giving, giving back. That's his... He's a better counter-attacker, you know? That's the way you respond to, to, to the aggression of, of a, of an em- emotional attack. I think everybody's different in that regards.

Lex Fridman 36:06 What's interesting that John said that he doesn't, uh, study the tactics of this game, or maybe you're not interested in the tactics of this game-

John Danaher 36:16 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 36:17 ... because it seems like this is more than just being an entertainer. It seems like it could be an effective part of the match.

John Danaher 36:22 Yeah. I, I just feel like whatever investment you make in that is... it's gonna get negligible rewards. First of all, it's probably only gonna pertain to one match in front of you, rather than the totality of your career. And whatever gains you get out of psychological trickery in play, typically-... Don't last long. You- you've raised an excellent example with, uh, Sugar Ray Leonard. He did fight outside of his usual, uh, manner in that regard. But rather than me try to tell someone, "Hey, uh, behave like this before a fight," I would have been probably more forceful between rounds with an athlete and say, "No, no, no. You're fighting this fight the wrong way." And that would have a much more beneficial impact on my athlete than psychological trickery before a fight.

Georges St-Pierre 37:13 I believe another example of, uh, emotion that leads to failure is, uh, Jose Aldo against Conor McGregor. I think it was- it was, uh, on purpose that Conor McGregor did this, tried to bait Aldo to become overaggressive to open him- himself, 'cause he's an excellent counter puncher- puncher. I- that's what I believe, and made a mistake.

Gordon Ryan 37:37 There's another great one, my match against Cyborg-

Georges St-Pierre 37:40 Hmm.

Gordon Ryan 37:41 ... in 2018, No Gi Worlds, where he didn't even try to win. He just, like, wanted to smack me in the face the whole time 'cause he was so angry that I was talking shit to him before the match. And, uh, it was like the finals of the Absolute. It was, like, the biggest match of the weekend, and he just didn't even try to pass my guard or do anything. He just wanted to hit me in the face and I was like, "Sick, I just won." (laughs)

Lex Fridman 38:01 It was fru- incredibly frustrating.

Gordon Ryan 38:02 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 38:02 It was fascinating to watch, like, a grown man sort of lose composure.

Georges St-Pierre 38:07 (laughs)

Lex Fridman 38:08 It was very interesting.

John Danaher 38:08 Um, Gordon, one thing I've always, uh, been very impressed w- with you, and that's, um, no matter how heated talk gets before a match with you, when you go out to grapple, you're absolutely cold. Like, I've- you've never gone into a- a- a match carrying anything other than just cold-blooded calculation. And you've always been able to separate very well the idea of words and- and deeds. And I think that's always been one of your- um, one of your strongest assets. The way I often measure this is when a match is over, I will ask the athlete questions about the match, and if they can't answer the question, "What were you doing in the fourth minute? Okay, what was that setup you used in- in- in the third minute that got you into the kimura lock?" If they can't answer that, that tells me they were just fighting on instincts and emotion. But with Gordon, it's like a log book. It's- uh, it's like, "Okay, in the seventh minute, you went for that, uh, juji-gatame setup from- from- uh, on the left side. What were you thinking?" He can always give an answer. He's absolutely stone-cold.

Lex Fridman 39:22 Speaking of emotion, uh, Gordon, you, uh, will potentially, if you're healthy, face Andre Galvao in the ADCC coming up-

Gordon Ryan 39:32 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 39:32 ... uh, super fight. Uh, who is Andre Galvao for people who don't know? Can you tell the story of your beef with, uh, the- the emotional interaction with the man?

Gordon Ryan 39:43 Yeah. So, uh, Andre is, uh, he's considered the greatest ADCC competitor of all time. Uh, multiple time black belt world champion, uh, winningest ADCC champion ever. He has six- six gold medals. And, uh, I've been trying to compete against him pretty much forever. Like, since I got my black belt in 2016, I've been trying to get matches with him. Uh, he was in the first EBI that I did, and he ended up pulling out, and then I've been trying to get matches with him. And, uh, he would always say no and give one reason or another. And then, uh, after the last ADCC, I was like, "Hey, Andre said he was retiring after this- after this, uh- this competition. So if he wants to retire, you know, he's- he's the greatest ADCC competitor of all time, and I think it's great, but if he wants to compete, then that's great too." I was like super nice. And then he started, like, posting, like, passive-aggressive Instagram, uh, uh, captions. And, uh, then we started going back and forth in the internet. And there was, like, one point where I saw him in person when he acknowledged, he's like, "I understand, like, what you're doing. Like, we're gonna pump this fight up," and he was, like, totally on board. But then there must have been something that happened where, like, he- it changed from, like, him, like, going along with it to being, like, actually pissed. And then, uh, there was the one night at Flo where I went to go shake his hand and he- he flipped me off, and then he followed me backstage and started to try to fight me, and then I smacked him, and then he didn't wanna fight anymore.

Lex Fridman 41:10 (inhales)

Gordon Ryan 41:10 And then we've been going back. He's actually blocked me on Instagram now, so he- we wo- he just won't engage. No one from Atos will engage now. But it's gonna be interesting how he- how he shows up, if he can keep it under control or not.

Lex Fridman 41:21 Do you think... How do you explain that level of emotion? Is this fear of losing your throne? Is it... Or is it just a human being, like with Cyborg, just- just becoming emotionally unstable? What-

Gordon Ryan 41:34 It might just be me. I just have a way to get- get under people's skin. It just... I don't know. Uh, he's- he's- he was- he was cool for a while, and then I just... I don't know. It just... The- everyone gets like this. They're all so emotional by the time they actually step up to compete that it's pretty easy to read them. They're either so emotional that they wanna actually come forward and- and beat me. Like, uh, like, Tim Spriggs is a perfect example at ADCC. I posted, like, uh, on my story on Instagram, like, 10 minutes before our match. Uh, I said, like, "What I'm gonna do to Tim Spriggs is gonna be criminal." And he's, like, a very stally guy. And he came, he saw that, and then he came out and actually tried to fight me. Like, he came and actually engaged my guard, and I ended up submitting him. So it either has that effect or it has the effect where they know I've talked so much shit leading up to the match that they're so afraid to lose that they just get super stally and they move away. So it either has one effect where they come forward and they wanna- they wanna beat me beat me, or they wanna just- they're so afraid of getting submitted that they know if they engage, they're super cagey and they just back away and don't really do anything.

Lex Fridman 42:33 Do you think this match happens?

Gordon Ryan 42:35 There's a lot of variables. One, I have to see how my stomach is. And two, if I'm actually gonna show up and compete and my stomach's healthy, I doubt that Andre will actually show up to compete.... I've been trying to compete against him for six years, and he hasn't done it, so there's no reason to think he would now.

Lex Fridman 42:50 Is it possible for you to speak to where, like, your estimates are about your stomach, or is it un- too unclear for now?

Gordon Ryan 42:56 It's still too early to tell. I have this round of treatment that I'm doing until late February, and then I'm pretty sure that they need to do the same test they did initially to retest all my levels and then go from there, so. I've been feeling a little bit better. Like, it's not nearly as bad as it used to be. Um, I was explaining to someone the other day, like, for the last four years, I would be so nauseous that every time I would walk into a new room, I'd have to actively locate a garbage can in case I have to throw up. So I'm like one step above that right now. I'm, like, doing a little bit better than that.

Lex Fridman 43:26 (laughs)

Gordon Ryan 43:26 Um, so it's definitely getting a little bit better, but it's not, it's not where it needs to be.

Lex Fridman 43:30 Can we, can we talk about diet for just a sec? Because, uh, both of you, uh, Georges and, and Gordon, like suffered from s- stomach issues, different kind, um, and have arrived for now for d- at different places. So can you, maybe Georges speak to, um, the general question of what is the best diet for performance, for training? Like, h- what have you learned through your career about this?

Georges St-Pierre 43:54 Well, I, I think everybody is different. Um, to me personally, uh, I implement fasting, um, time-restricted eating, and, and prolonged fasting. I think-

Lex Fridman 44:07 What's the longest you've done so far? You've-

Georges St-Pierre 44:09 The longest I've done is five days.

Lex Fridman 44:11 You've done five days.

Georges St-Pierre 44:11 I do it quite often. I do, I do four time a year, I do three to five days, uh, water fast. Um, and I ha- I liked it. It helps me with inflammation. I think it boosts the immune system, and, uh, that, that's about the- the... I read papers about, about this. And, uh, it helps me also feel, feel good. It's kind of, uh, ther- very therapeutic to me.

Lex Fridman 44:37 Oh, physical and mental? Or just mental?

Georges St-Pierre 44:38 Yeah, men- mental and physical because when I eat my... when I break my fast, and I sit at the table with, with other people, it doesn't matter what I eat. If we all eat the same thing, I always tell them, I said, "My, my food right now tastes better than all of yours." You know? Because I, you know, I, I have th- this thing that I th- I believe sometime you need to put yourself into suffering to realize how pleasurable something is. And, uh, I, uh, can't... personally, like diet-wise, I eat whatever I want-

Lex Fridman 45:16 Mm-hmm.

Georges St-Pierre 45:17 ... whenever I want. I don't, I no longer have any problem with this. But if I would have a competition coming up, like, knowing that I... what I know now about my body, I would orient myself m- more towards an animal-based diet. That's... because I've tried different things, and that's the kind of diet that I believe helped me having less inflammation and feel better in terms of performance for, for, for doing something physical.

Lex Fridman 45:47 So high protein, high fat, low carbs?

Georges St-Pierre 45:50 Well, i- i- it's... this is... is different between animal-based diet and keto.

Lex Fridman 45:54 Mm-hmm.

Georges St-Pierre 45:55 I mean, there is carbs. There, there is a lot of fruit. Uh, I get a lot of the, the, the, the carbs from the fruit.

Lex Fridman 46:00 Okay.

Georges St-Pierre 46:01 Uh, a lot of organs, organs, um-

Lex Fridman 46:04 Organ meats, yeah.

Georges St-Pierre 46:06 I know a little bit about paleontology and, and the, the past o- o- on... about prehistoric human. And I, I know that, um... and not, not only about that, I know because I, I've traveled c- certain place in the world. I went to, to visit the Maasai in Africa, the hunter-gatherer tribe. And I know that when they kill an animal, they go for the organs first. And I know a pre- most predatory animal, they do the same thing. So organs, I believe, is something that normally in, in our culture, in, in the Western part of the world, we don't really eat, but it's something that is very nutritious.

Lex Fridman 46:41 Have you been able to convince Gordon to try fasting?

Georges St-Pierre 46:45 (laughs)

Gordon Ryan 46:46 We always talk about diets.

Georges St-Pierre 46:48 It's a different situation, I think, for Gordon because he's an heavyweight.

Lex Fridman 46:52 Yeah.

Georges St-Pierre 46:52 He, he doesn't want to lose weight.

Lex Fridman 46:53 Yeah.

Georges St-Pierre 46:53 You know, when a heavyweight... the range of a... like my, my range was... like I was a welterweight and middleweight. But heavyweight, it's like some of the guys that you compe- can compete against, they're-

Lex Fridman 47:03 Yeah.

Georges St-Pierre 47:03 ... they might be 300 pounds. So if you lose weight, it's a, it's a big problem. You know what I mean? So... and there is things that will work for me that might not work for Gordon, you know? So you have to make his own experience. And I, and I told Gordon, "Sometime when everybody goes left, try to go right. See how you feel with certain things."

Lex Fridman 47:21 Experiment. Not, not a topic, uh, that's part of your optimization, optimal performance formula?

Gordon Ryan 47:29 Well, uh, what I used to do before my stomach issues... and for those of you listening who don't know, I had recurring staph infections in 2018. And I took a bunch of oral antibiotics, and it just completely wiped out my stomach. So, uh, I just was diagnosed... I was misdiagnosed as gastroparesis. So for those of you messaging me on Instagram who are just watching Rogan asking me about my gastroparesis, that's not what I have. Um, they misdiagnosed it and, uh, I did some other tests. And for four years, they didn't even know what it was. And then I got this, uh... I went to this doctor in California who, uh, diagnosed me with... I have H. pylori and then a fungal and a bacterial overgrowth in my small intestines. So the issues in the small intestines. Um, so what I used to do was I used to do like seasons where I'd have, uh, a very clean season when I was competing, and I would have a lower body weight. And then I would do like an off season, kind of like a bodybuilder, where I would eat a lot more food and a little bit dirtier food, and I would have cheeseburgers and pizza at nighttime to have the extra calories. Um, but now I can't eat those foods because they upset my stomach. So now I pretty much just try to eat whatever I can and maintain the weight the best I can, um, based around how my stomach feels. So right now, it's like rice, chicken, eggs, fish, vegetables, fruits, and pretty much nothing else. Like anything hard to digest, uh, anything spicy, red meat, fast food, all that's, all that's hard for me.

Lex Fridman 48:52 Which sucks b- because in Texas...

Gordon Ryan 48:54 All the best things, yeah.

Lex Fridman 48:55 All the best things.

Gordon Ryan 48:55 Barbecue.

Lex Fridman 48:57 And, I mean, this diet is really important for you, John. I can tell.

John Danaher 49:01 (laughs)

Lex Fridman 49:02 (laughs) Like (laughs) is it, is that something you think about for athletes at all? Or again-

John Danaher 49:06 No.

Lex Fridman 49:06 ... this is part of the ... you know?

John Danaher 49:07 No. I've, I've, um ... to be honest with you, um, I've never seen any measurable improvement in sports performance in jujitsu by change of diet. Uh, I do believe that diet is important for longevity in human beings, and I do think it makes a difference, especially once you get past the age of 40, um, with regards to longevity. Uh, for older athletes, I do believe it makes some difference. But my observation is, in athletes, uh, in their youth and working up into their prime, I've seen athletes have the worst diets.

Lex Fridman 49:42 (laughs)

John Danaher 49:42 Um, uh, God bless Travis Stevens, but that guy won an Olympic silver medal basically on McDonald's and candy.

Lex Fridman 49:48 Yeah.

John Danaher 49:49 Um-

Lex Fridman 49:50 (laughs)

John Danaher 49:50 Uh, Georges St-Pierre, for 80% of your career-

Lex Fridman 49:52 (laughs)

John Danaher 49:52 ... you were powered by McDonald's and Coca-Cola. Uh- Etogine Alfredo, that was my-

Lex Fridman 49:57 Yeah.

John Danaher 49:57 ... mea-

Lex Fridman 49:58 (laughs)

John Danaher 49:58 ... my meal of choice before a championship fight. Uh, Gordon for hi- ... in his youth was just Five Guys hamburgers. Gari Tonon, same thing. I've worked with Japanese judo players who smoked a pack of cigarettes a day and won Olympic gold medals.

Lex Fridman 50:12 Mm-hmm.

John Danaher 50:12 Um, I've worked with Russian wrestlers who just ate whatever was put in front of them, and their athletic performance was outstanding. Um, I've worked with other guys who did have what would be considered a very clean diet, and their performance was no better than anyone else on the mat. So I've, I've never ... I've never seen someone say, "Okay, I, I changed my diet," and because of that, there was a measurable improvement-

Lex Fridman 50:41 You know-

John Danaher 50:41 ... in, in sports performance.

Lex Fridman 50:42 Another way to phrase it, though, is, um, I have noticed with a lot of elite athletes, what they eat, they begin to believe that that either is not a hindrance or it's actually good. Like, Travis Stevens is a, is an example of somebody who eats shitty because he believes ... it's like, it's like a power, because whenever he's traveling across the world, he can't rely on healthy, good food to be there.

John Danaher 51:06 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 51:06 So I'm going to eat shitty so that, that's the ... like, my body knows how to perform under whatever, Skittles or whatever-

John Danaher 51:12 Everywhere's got McDonald's.

Lex Fridman 51:13 Everywhere's got McDonald's.

John Danaher 51:14 (laughs)

Lex Fridman 51:15 So that makes ... like, and they've convinced themselves, and you're talking about Russian athletes, a lot of them have very strong beliefs about, like, this p- p- particular food being good for them.

John Danaher 51:27 But there's no agreement among them ............................

Lex Fridman 51:30 Exactly.

John Danaher 51:30 (laughs) Yeah, yeah.

Lex Fridman 51:30 So belief is more important than the actual diet.

John Danaher 51:32 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 51:33 I feel like.

John Danaher 51:33 I ... Sorry. I- if I can, after ... when ... you know, after a, a night out, when you hang over, I think the best thi- ... and, and I'm saying this in all sin- sincerity. I think the best thing to eat, to me, was like a, like a chee- cheeseburgers with, uh, it's ... we call that a poutine back home, 'cause it's very fat, it's greasy, so it ab- ... so the next day, when you wake up, I think you feel better because it absorbed the alcohol.

Lex Fridman 52:01 There you go.

John Danaher 52:02 100%.

Lex Fridman 52:02 (laughs)

John Danaher 52:02 And you can train and, and-

Lex Fridman 52:05 100%.

John Danaher 52:05 ... still kick ass. (laughs) My mom, my mom told me the same story once.

Lex Fridman 52:07 Yeah.

John Danaher 52:07 And then I tried, I was like, I was hungover for some party and, uh, I woke up. I was, like, probably, I don't know, 19 or 20. I woke up and, uh, my mom was like, "Yeah, just have a, have a cheeseburger. Go, go eat, go eat something greasy." And I did, and I was like, "Oh, I feel kinda better now."

Lex Fridman 52:21 (laughs)

John Danaher 52:22 I, I do not know the science, the exact science behind it, but I, I, I, I always notice, and I don't know if it's placebo, but I always notice that if I, if I'm, if I'm, if I party hard and I've been drinking a lot, if I don't eat before I'm going to bed, if I don't eat shitty food, the next day, I will wake up and feel worse than if I eat shitty food, I feel better. I know it sounds crazy. I don't know why, but it works for me. (laughs)

Lex Fridman 52:50 Yeah, but it's also hard to do science on extreme performers. So the discussions we're having is amongst the very elite.

John Danaher 52:56 Hmm.

Lex Fridman 52:56 You know? That, that-

John Danaher 52:56 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 52:56 This might not apply to a general, like, recreational athlete.

John Danaher 53:00 Mm.

Lex Fridman 53:00 But for the elite.

John Danaher 53:01 I've just seen champions in every kind of combat sport, and I've never seen a correlation between dietary habit and performance in people under the age of 30. Uh, I do believe that diet is important for longevity, however, and, uh, for that alone, it, it may well be worth investing time in it. But with regards to sports performance, at least in jujitsu, I've never seen any significant difference.

Lex Fridman 53:23 Well, we had a little bit of a, a, a difference of opinion on this, I think. Uh, what about strength training and muscle building? Or at least we had a discussion

Lex Fridman 53:31 about this. So, so what do you believe is the value of, um, of, you know, training outside of the sport? So fitness, lifting heavy, lifting explosive, all kinds of lifting. Do you-

John Danaher 53:44 I believe, uh, uh, personally, for me, I believe, and I- I've learned that from, from John. Uh, I used to, to do, like ... to train like a bodybuilder be- before, because I thought, in my early days of competition, that was the most efficient way to do things, to ... because it was like, I was watching Jean-Claude Van Damme, Arnold Schwarzenegger. We thought back, back in the day that was the thing, that that's how we should do it, you know, for ... to, to get ready for a fight. But I realized later on, uh, that it's all about efficiency. And some guys, they don't lift at all, and they're doing pretty well. So I do cross-training, mostly for longevity. Mo- ... it's mostly for therapeutic ... therap- ther- uh, like a therapy. It's more therapeutic than for performance. It's to keep my body healthy, to do certain movement that are different than what I do every day in the gym, in combat sport, to keep me, uh, healthy and, and a- athletic.

Lex Fridman 54:50 So all the interesting movement stuff that you've done outside the sport, that was for therapeutic?

John Danaher 54:55 Thera- mostly therapeutic.

Lex Fridman 54:56 Uh-

John Danaher 54:56 I think it does ... it could trans- tran- transcend to performance, but it's mostly therapeutic. I do not believe that squatting ...... five plates or- or bench- bench pressing, uh, three plate will make me a better fighter. I do not... I- I believe actually it could hurt me more. It could damage me more than- than benefit me.

Lex Fridman 55:18 So, Gordon is somebody who, uh, on Instagram posts a lot of pictures of you being shredded and huge. Uh, what's the value of- (laughs) of strength in sport?

Gordon Ryan 55:28 So I do like a combination of... Uh, John got us big into like gymnastics type movements, uh, like toes to bar and muscle ups and things like that, when we were- we were young. Um, like toes to bar because that's like the exact motion you have to do when you're retaining guard is knees to chest. Um, so I do a lot of that stuff. Uh, in combination with, I do a lot of, opposite of George, I do a lot of bodybuilding workouts. Um, where I do like a basic split, like a chest and triceps, back and biceps day. Um, and my idea is that weightlifting should always be a supplement to jujitsu. So you- you shouldn't be missing a jujitsu session to lift weights. Um, so I don't do... I do probably, I train in jujitsu every day and then I lift three to four times a week. Um, I feel like lifting seven days a week for me is- is too much and the lifting takes a lot of energy when you do like hard lifts like that. Um, but my idea is if you want to get good at jujitsu, do jujitsu. And if you wanna be bigger and stronger, lift weights and- uh, and- and eat food. And, um, I- I generally don't go super heavy when I lift 'cause you start putting crazy weights then start tearing muscles and stuff. Um, so I usually do moderate weights with a- with a very high rep- rep range, like four sets of 20 with a drop set at the end to fatigue the muscles, break the fibers and grow.

Lex Fridman 56:47 Okay, so- oh, four sets of 20. That's interesting. So th- that's more for endurance than raw strength.

Gordon Ryan 56:53 Yeah. And also, I think closer to competition, I'll pick the intensity up. And while there's no real way to get significant gains in VO2 max, I think that lifting and just getting used to mentally redlining, um, gets me kind of in competition shape because a lot of times in jujitsu, the guys I'm training with, they're not on a technical level where they can physically exhaust me to the point where I feel like I'm gonna die. But, uh, I get most of that like when I'm wrestling 'cause I'm not as efficient in wrestling so I get a lot more tired. Um, and lifting, when you do like... If you do like four sets of 20 leg press to squat and you go back and forth, like you're like about to die at the end. And, um, I think I feel like it gets me in the mental habit of redlining before competition.

Lex Fridman 57:37 But does muscle help you?

Gordon Ryan 57:39 What's that?

Lex Fridman 57:39 So like the actual mass of muscle, like that's still a-

Gordon Ryan 57:42 I think being stronger will always help in a combat sport.

Lex Fridman 57:44 Will always help?

Gordon Ryan 57:45 Yeah. To some degree. It's not gonna be to a degree where it overrides efficiency, but I think that it can't help being str- or it can't hurt being stronger.

Lex Fridman 57:55 Well, there's a- a bunch of people who believe, depending on the sport, that, um, strength can qu- quickly become, um... That have detrimental effects to efficiency. So like-

Gordon Ryan 58:07 Yes, I agree with that.

Lex Fridman 58:08 ... certain kind... I mean, if strength is pure, is like very cleanly, purely applied to the exact movements of the sport. So in judo, the explosiveness you need is very difficult to replicate in any kind of way except by doing judo.

Gordon Ryan 58:22 Yeah. I mean, for us, uh, we always have to understand there's only so much technique that can overcome a certain amount of strength. Like if we all try to fight a silverback gorilla, it's gonna kill us.

Lex Fridman 58:34 (laughs)

Gordon Ryan 58:34 Um, but that- that being said, um, I do think that... (laughs) Like for example, heavyweights are usually the least technical because they rely on their size and strength to beat smaller people. Um, but I think that if you stay with the s- with the discipline of doing everything very precise... And I train with a lot smaller people most of the time so I get out of the habit of using, uh, using my strength. Um, and I think if you're very precise with the way that you train, I think that the- the extra size and strength can help you.

Lex Fridman 59:02 Quick question. How would you fight a silverback gorilla?

Gordon Ryan 59:05 (sighs)

Lex Fridman 59:07 I mean, is there... What- which animal do you think you can actually defeat that would be impressive, that most people would say you can't?

Gordon Ryan 59:14 You know, I actually... I don't have an- uh, an- an answer to this.

Lex Fridman 59:18 I thought you were gonna say... (laughs) I bet you did.

Gordon Ryan 59:18 But I want- I want- I wanna say that me and John had like a four-hour discussion on this one time.

Lex Fridman 59:24 (laughs)

Gordon Ryan 59:24 I'm like, "What would win, bear or gorilla?" And he went into like this whole dissertation about how like jaguars spin underneath and like bear can follow silverbacks and kill them and like rip their- rip their artery in their legs out. It was amazing.

Lex Fridman 59:35 I guess... Okay, so before we talk about strength, John, let me ask you, what do you think people would be surprised by if two animals faced, one of them would win and people wouldn't predict that? So they would be surprised by the effectiveness of a certain animal at fighting i- in the... Whether it's in the forest, in the jungle. So let- let's-

John Danaher 59:54 Whoa, whoa, whoa, wait. Slow down here, hot shot.

Lex Fridman 59:56 Okay, okay, okay, okay. So there's two animals of different species fighting.

John Danaher 1:00:00 Right.

Lex Fridman 1:00:00 And- and most people would pick... Well, so for example, the lion gets a lot of credit for some reason. I'm not-

John Danaher 1:00:06 Hmm.

Lex Fridman 1:00:06 ... exactly sure why, the king of the jungle. Well, I- I... You know, a lot of people told me that the lion... For example, the tiger can beat a lion.

John Danaher 1:00:16 Yeah, this is one of those age-old debates-

Lex Fridman 1:00:18 (laughs)

John Danaher 1:00:18 ... with, uh-

Lex Fridman 1:00:19 It's an old... Okay. (laughs)

John Danaher 1:00:19 Yeah, yeah.

Lex Fridman 1:00:20 Well, in grappling, in fighting, it feels like some animals use teeth and some use other parts of their body also. Like a bear, actually I don't even know how they... I-

John Danaher 1:00:33 They- they have extraordinarily powerful and long claws. And in addition, they're powerful biters as well.

Lex Fridman 1:00:40 So I wonder... And the same with the silverback. I don't know how much they're... I love that we're having this discussion. (laughs)

John Danaher 1:00:46 I think we need Joe Rogan for this discussion.

Lex Fridman 1:00:48 I- I think so. Yeah, I think so.

John Danaher 1:00:49 Um, so, uh, your- your question has gone in- in about five different directions.

Lex Fridman 1:00:55 So it started with strength. Uh, and let's go back there, which is, do you think for- for an athlete in jujitsu, let's- let's stick to grappling. Uh, do you think stre- strength is helpful or detrimental?

John Danaher 1:01:09 Uh, I've always believed that...

1:01:11 Two things will, uh, create whatever, whatever effectiveness you have in grappling. Those are your skill set and your attributes. And the best athletes are those who excel in both. Um, don't kid yourself, if someone gets twice as strong by some kind of magic potion, they're gonna be a more effective grappler. If someone gets twice the level of endurance that they had previously, they will be a more effective grappler. These physical attributes have a very important outcome on the, uh, sorry, a very important effect upon the outcome of matches. Um, it's always a good thing to be stronger, it's always a good thing to have better endurance, it's always a good thing to have better balance, or whatever other attribute you throw out there. Um, Gordon's point was, okay, everyone agrees on that, but there's a problem. In order to build these things, you have to carve into other elements of your training regiment, and then it becomes, well, which becomes more important, increases in strength or increases in skill? There comes a point where investing in strength training starts to get diminishing returns. I can't tell the difference between someone who bench presses 300 pounds on the mat versus someone who bench presses 400 pounds, but that's a big difference, that's 100-pound difference. And f- for an athlete to go from bench pressing 300 pounds to 400 pounds, that would require a great deal of, uh, of training effort and focus. But if I can't tell the difference when I grapple them, then why bother? Okay, once you get to a certain strength level, it doesn't really help that much to go from a 400-pound bench press to a 450-pound bench press. At that s- stage, you're, you're really getting a diminishing in returns on your training investment. Um, now skills, on the other hand, h- experience far, far less in terms of diminishing returns. Every new skill you develop can translate very, very well into big increases in performance. Look at the example of Gari Tonon that we talked about earlier. Investments in guillotine made a significant improvement in his, uh, effectiveness in matches, and led directly to some of his most important victories. Um, but if he had invested the same amount of training time in developing a bench press that was 25 pounds more than previously, that would have had no outcome, uh, no, uh, influence on the outcome of those matches. So, the question always becomes, yep, everyone acknowledges that these physical, uh, uh, attributes are important, and everyone understands that becoming stronger or fitter is a, a, a desirable thing, and every athlete should work on them. The interesting question becomes, okay, at what point do you start to say, "I'm not gonna be helped by further increases in, in, in strength training or endurance training?" Um, and my point with my athletes is, in the overwhelming majority of cases, if there's any kind of doubt, invest more heavily in skill training than attribute training, especially once you get to a certain level on the attributes.

Lex Fridman 1:04:25 Well, the interesting thing that I think you should account for with strength training is, um, there's Instagram.

John Danaher 1:04:33 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 1:04:33 There's the world that it's, uh, it, it seems to be more fun to build muscle mass.

John Danaher 1:04:39 Um-

Lex Fridman 1:04:40 It's like an addiction that people have.

John Danaher 1:04:41 Yeah, yeah. There, there's also economic elements, too. Like, most people, I, I hate to say this, but it's true, most people are more concerned with image than function, and, uh, it's hard to sell a fighter or a jujitsu athlete who doesn't look like one.

Lex Fridman 1:05:00 Looks like Fedor.

John Danaher 1:05:02 Yeah. It's, it's a tough sell. Now, you can do it in fighting and, and jujitsu because ultimately, it's about whose hand is raised at the end of the match, and you could even use it as a selling point. You can be a guy that doesn't look like he should be winning, but he is winning. That is a selling point. But if you give most people a choice between looking like Arnold Schwarzenegger and winning matches versus looking like Fedor and winning matches, most people will select, "I wish I'd rather look like Arnold Schwarzenegger." And so most athletes feel almost like an economic compulsion to be in good shape and in order to advance their marketability.

Lex Fridman 1:05:36 Yeah. Nike is not gonna sponsor Fedor or Tank Abbott.

John Danaher 1:05:40 (laughs) Yeah, Tank Abbott, no. Fedor, maybe (laughs) .

Lex Fridman 1:05:44 (laughs) But, yeah, yeah, winning at the very top, there's, there's something about the aesthetic, um, like image of strength and power.

John Danaher 1:05:51 So, it's also an, an, also a personal thing. If you look at yourself in the mirror-

Lex Fridman 1:05:55 Right.

John Danaher 1:05:56 ... do you like what, what you see? You know what I mean?

Lex Fridman 1:05:58 Yeah.

John Danaher 1:05:59 Do you find yourself attractive, you know? What, what can you do to make you look better, you know? I think, to me, to me, it was something, uh, one of the reason I work out is also for, for that.

Lex Fridman 1:06:08 Well, I'm sure if Fedor looks in the mirror, he says, "I, I look damn good today."

John Danaher 1:06:11 Yeah, could, could be, too. (laughs) It's also a genetic factor. Some people-

Lex Fridman 1:06:15 Yeah.

John Danaher 1:06:15 ... you know, it's harder for them. I mean, yeah.

Lex Fridman 1:06:18 All right, so th- the question on training, y- you guys, John Gordon, train often three times a day every day. Um, Georges had a different, uh, like, um, a different approach to training. So, like, w- what is, uh-

John Danaher 1:06:35 (laughs) .

Lex Fridman 1:06:35 ... for, for, no, I don't mean in a kind of the opposite or something, it's just not every single day. So, uh, w- and obviously, you are legitimately at the very top, uh, in terms of performance a- accomplishment in, in, in the field. So, what have you learned about what it takes to train to become not just elite, but the best?

John Danaher 1:06:58 Well, I, I, I, um... A lot of people when you say train, they, they see training hard. But if you need to be very constant, uh, and, uh, very disciplined, you need to train, but you don't need to train hard every day. Uh, that- that's what John, uh, taught me. Um-

Georges St-Pierre 1:07:17 For me, it's the nervous system. Sometime I feel if I load it up too much, it comes to a point that you're... It's too much. There is no- no more information that I can absorb. So, uh, and I do believe that it's something that you can train to your- the capaci- your capacity of being able to learn, of absorbing certain thing. And, uh, I did a lot of volume of training. But when I- when I was getting ready for a fight, especially during sparring day, I like to do it quick, because my- when I fight, it's five round of five minute. I don't like to- to spend, um, uh, an hour or two hours in a gym because, uh, I need to know how hard I can be going for 25 minutes, you know what I... Not for two hours, for 25 minute. And at my last fight, John and I, we- we- we- we- we were thinking of how could we make me more, uh, of a better finisher, you know, more opportunist. And then John and I, remember when- when we were training with Gordon, Jake Shield came, Gary Tonon. My round of grappling were different than if I would be training for, uh, Abu Dhabi, you know, for- for ABI or like some, like... In grappling, the round are longer. But in a mixed martial art fight, it's very rare that you're gonna spend more than four minute or four minute and a half on the ground. It's- it's very unlikely. I mean, it could- it can happen, but. So I- do you remember we did the round three minute? We did... All the round I was doing were three-minute round. So it gives a different, uh, rhythm to the training. It forced me to be more opportunist, to be more of a finisher, because I had only three minute to- to do what I needed to do. So if I, if I see something, I need to- to go for the kill right away. I cannot be too over patient, you know what I mean? And it- it served me well in my last fight, and I think it- that's a good blueprint to follow, um, when you're a mixed martial art fighter. I- if I would, if... The result was great and I think it... Maybe I should have done that before. It was a great, great idea that we had.

Lex Fridman 1:09:40 So not to do... Um, be very careful on doing too much volume.

Georges St-Pierre 1:09:44 Yes.

Lex Fridman 1:09:44 Try to get out and- and then try to focus on finishing and getting- getting out as quickly as possible.

Georges St-Pierre 1:09:48 I mean, it base... To build up your foundation, I believe you need a lot of volume. But when you get ready for competition, you need- it needs some- to be something that replicate what you're gonna be facing.

Lex Fridman 1:10:02 What- what are we talking about? What do you think? Uh, like, is there rest days, five days a week, twice a day, once a day? Is there any one formula like that or no?

Georges St-Pierre 1:10:11 This- this... I do- I do not believe in overtraining. I believe in underrest. I believe you can be underrest, and people always link that immediately to the volume of their- how much volume they- they train. Which it could be something else. How are you feeling em- emotionally? Are you- are you having, uh, problems, uh, personal problem? Do you have a- have a hard time sleeping because you have, uh, like someone died? Or I don't know, like, you hold money, you're broke or what... Like, you know what I mean? It could be anything. Uh, there- there is something that can affect you psychologically or emotionally that made it in a way that you cannot sleep well because your- your stress, your cortisol level is high or your... You know what I mean? All these factor need to be take- taken in consideration. It's not only about the volume of training. People always think the volume of tra- the training is the only thing that can affect recuperation, which it is not. You know?

Lex Fridman 1:11:16 Yeah, you just have to minimize the amount of stress from all kinds of factors.

Georges St-Pierre 1:11:19 It's a very stressful job to be a professional, uh, combat athlete, whether you're a grappler, a boxer, a kickboxer, a fighter, and it need to be taking as, uh, into account.

Lex Fridman 1:11:33 Is it more or less stressful than marriage? Just kidding.

Georges St-Pierre 1:11:36 (laughs)

Lex Fridman 1:11:37 Uh, next question. Uh, um, so (laughs) I don't know how to ask this question given what Georges just said, but you're training three times a day and finishing. Like, what- what have you learned about what- what brings out the best in you as- as the elite level grappler?

Gordon Ryan 1:11:56 Um, so over the recent years, I've actually changed it up a little bit. Um, when I was coming up through from white to black belt, uh, I felt that the volume was the most important. So it would be anywhere from, like, three to seven sessions a day, um, going from school to school, from New York to New Jersey. Um, and I think that the volume was very important to build the skills, um, where I just didn't know how to move my body at purple belt the way that I should. So I think that building the skills is, uh, is super important, and I think that early on, volume is very important. Uh, now that I already have the skills built, I think that acquiring more knowledge is the most important. Um, so I find that if I do so many sessions a day, like if I do three sessions a day, um, I feel sometimes by the third session, I'm just like, so mentally... Like, there's just- there's so much information that's went through my head the first two sessions that I feel like I'm not even there mentally on the third session. Um, so I feel like doing less volume now, but having more mental clarity per session is more important, because I already have the foundational skills acquired.

Lex Fridman 1:13:08 So a lot of your training is almost like just thinking, like learning.

Gordon Ryan 1:13:13 A lot of it, yeah. So I'll do like... I mean, our schedule's been messed up since the pandemic because Renzo's got shut down and they were using a friend's gym in Puerto Rico, and now we're using a friend's gym in our- in- in Austin. Um, but once we have our own school, we'll have a set up schedule where I can pretty much just be there all day long. Um, but right now I do like a lifting session in the morning and then I'll come in and help teach, uh, at Renzo's. So I'm there mentally, um...... seeing what's going on and I'm playing around with ideas in my head. Uh, and then I'm there physically and very sharp mentally for the competition class during the 1:00 PM session. And then after that I'll go home, I'll rest, and get ready for the next day.

Lex Fridman 1:13:52 (sighs) What have you learned around seeing all these different athletes? Is there a, uh, a universal rule that applies or is it, um, athlete specific?

John Danaher 1:14:00 Um, yeah. Uh, first, one thing that needs to be addressed is that, uh, George and Gordon play very different sports with very different athletic demands. Um, Gordon can be in matches that range from, anywhere from six minutes to literally hours long. Um, as a result, uh, the overall, uh, pacing and intensity of matches is massively different. Most obviously, there is no striking in Gordon's sport. Um, striking, by its very nature, is a much more explosive physical action than grappling is. Grappling is primarily an isometric kind of, uh, sport based around isometric tension and endurance. Um, George's sport is, does feature a significant amount of isometric tension, but the majority of it is based around explosion. So, the physical demands of the two sports are radically different. In addition, the time of application is r- uh, is radically different. George raised a very interesting point, his matches seem long, 25 minutes for a championship match, um, but always understand that a mixed martial arts fight at championship level, if it goes the distance, is really five five-minute matches. Each round is a match in itself, and that's exactly how you're scored. You're scored by who wins the most matches over five matches. As a result, the application of the techniques, especially the grappling techniques, has to be done at a certain pace. As George pointed out, realistically, the maximum application time you're gonna get in most situations is somewhere between 15 seconds and, and three minutes. Even for a specialized grappler, like Demian Maia, there's still a significant part of each round which is spent in set-up time to actually get the match to the ground. Um, it's very likely that at some point your opponent will stand up out of grappling and you'll have to re-initiate the entire process again. So that even for specialized grapplers, you might be spending only three minutes out of a five-minute round, uh, o- o- on the ground, and as a result, you gotta get your work done in a very short timeframe. Uh, Gordon Ryan, once it goes to the ground, and it can go to the ground because he chooses to sit to the ground, uh, w- may spend the entire match in ground positions. Um, as a result, the matches have completely different pacing and completely different physical demands, and the preparation that the two athletes go through will reflect that. Uh, if George St-Pierre, in training for mixed martial arts, becomes fatigued to a point where he's no longer physically effective and able to defend himself, the consequences for that in MMA training can be very deep indeed. Okay? If you make a mistake in mixed martial arts 'cause you're fatigued and tired and you take a full power roundhouse kick to the head, that's some deep consequences. A grappler doesn't have to face that. You can be completely exhausted in grappling and just sit in the bottom of the mount and just practice just survival skills, where you just don't get submitted from bottom out, and that can still be an effective training session. Complete and utter physical breakdown and fatigue can be ... can end an athlete's career in mixed martial arts. The consequences of training through fatigue in MMA are potentially very deep and very disturbing. Um, the consequences of training through complete physical exhaustion in grappling aren't really that severe. Okay? You just tap. Whenever there's a problem, you just tap. Um, and so they're very, very different sports in the way you, you prepare for them. Um, and a grappling, uh, athlete, like Gordon Ryan, we can take m- m- many more liberties with physical exhaustion and the amount of hours a day you spend in training than you could with a mixed martial arts athlete like

Lex Fridman 1:17:56 Could that actually be a benefit, uh, exhaustion as a, as a framework of learning? So like, from a place of exhaustion, is there any benefit? Do they ... You on- y- you said being at the bottom of mount, sort of understanding j- jujitsu or grappling somehow deeper because you're physically exhausted.

John Danaher 1:18:15 Absolutely. Absolutely. Because i- then the only thing you have left in your favor is your technique, and then you'll see how technical you are. In addition, you'll get to explore realms inside your mind that we don't spend a lot of time in, and you'll learn a lot about yourself and your ability to endure which will have, uh, potentially great benefits in similar situations and matches.

Lex Fridman 1:18:38 Yeah, there's, uh, I mean, for me, for a recreational person, getting exhaustion allows you the great benefit to experience what it feels like to really get dominated at, at an even greater frequency than you otherwise would.

John Danaher 1:18:52 Mm.

Lex Fridman 1:18:53 And that, there's something there. There's some animalistic thing that's very unpleasant, and then afterwards it takes you to a nice, to a place of, like, um, humility and ... I don't know, you get ... It forces you to rethink (laughs) life in positive ways. There's something about dominance. Like, I mean, if you get dominated a few times you can, uh, rationalize it somehow. You could say, "Okay, well, I've screwed this up." But with i- when you're exhausted and you have to do like 30 minutes or 40 minutes or an hour of just being domi- over and over and over being submitted, it, uh, I don't know, it's, it's a very good process for, for other avenues of life, I find. It's, I can't explain why 'cause I'm, uh, I'm, I'm, uh, driving home crying afterwards listening to Bruce Springsteen, but afterwards...Yeah, this... Afterwards, somehow you can think clearer, you can see clear about what is the right path through life, in all walks of life, like relationships, work, but also the grappling. Actually, the grappling is the hardest one to see what you have to

John Danaher 1:20:00 (laughs)

Lex Fridman 1:20:00 do next. (laughs) It clarifies other avenues, the humility, the- it's the- it removes the bullshit. It's like we see th- the world through some kind of fog, and it just removes it, and now you can see things clearly. I don't know what that is.

John Danaher 1:20:15 I think- I think it's important, like you mentioned, to push yourself, like sometimes to see how far you can go, because sometimes