Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan: The Greatest of All Time | Lex Fridman Podcast #260

1. 0:00 – 0:55

   Introduction

   1. JDJohn Danaher0:00

      Humans are fascinated by violence, and you've got to ask yourself why.

   2. LFLex Fridman0:05

      Is it the rash guard?

   3. JDJohn Danaher0:06

      Yes.

   4. GSGeorges St-Pierre0:07

      (laughs)

   5. GRGordon Ryan0:07

      And I talk so much shit that I'm like, "Man, if I lose, th- this is gonna be rough."

   6. JDJohn Danaher0:11

      You're learning this, shut the fuck up.

   7. LFLex Fridman0:13

      (clicks tongue) I got you, man.

   8. JDJohn Danaher0:14

      You are powered by McDonald's and Coca-Cola.

   9. LFLex Fridman0:16

      I want more.

   10. GRGordon Ryan0:17

       And then I smacked him, and he didn't wanna fight anymore.

   11. GSGeorges St-Pierre0:19

       Uh, I'm not impressed by your Coca-Cola.

   12. LFLex Fridman0:21

       (laughs)

   13. GRGordon Ryan0:22

       I don't need the junk.

   14. LFLex Fridman0:22

       If Georges St-Pierre and Khabib Nurmagomedov face each other in their prime, who wins? I'm here with three individuals, each of whom are considered by many to be the greatest of all time in each of their respective disciplines. The greatest MMA fighter of all time, Georges St-Pierre. The greatest martial arts coach of all time, John Danaher. And the greatest submission grappler of all time, Gordon Ryan.

2. 0:55 – 15:54

   Success

   1. LFLex Fridman0:55

      So, let me ask the first question. You guys didn't see the question, no preparation here. What is the key to your success, each of you? One thing or multiple things that come to mind. John, go first.

   2. JDJohn Danaher1:07

      (laughs)

   3. GSGeorges St-Pierre1:08

      (laughs)

   4. LFLex Fridman1:08

      (laughs) Um, is it the rash guard?

   5. JDJohn Danaher1:15

      Yes.

   6. LFLex Fridman1:16

      (laughs)

   7. JDJohn Danaher1:17

      Um...

   8. GSGeorges St-Pierre1:18

      (laughs) I like that you choose John right off the bat.

   9. LFLex Fridman1:20

      He seemed the most nervous (laughs) .

   10. GSGeorges St-Pierre1:22

       Please inspire us to- to- to give the right answer (laughs) .

   11. JDJohn Danaher1:26

       For- for me, it's about, um, finding a way to work in a world where most of the answers are already known. Okay? In- in- in any developed sport, by the time you enter that sport, most of the basic precepts, the- w- the, uh, the- the major techniques, the- the major mechanical understandings of the sport are long since worked out. And so, in a highly developed world, the key to success is to be able to identify some area of the industry that you're in which is currently undervalued.

   12. LFLex Fridman2:08

       So, do what the other people are not doing.

   13. JDJohn Danaher2:10

       Deeper than that. You're- you're... Everyone has a view of, okay, th- these are the- th- the main skills of the industry I work in. At any given time, some set of skills, attributes, um, will always be somewhat undervalued. They're underappreciated by the people in the game. You see that at any... In- in any given industry, there are always trends which change, uh, the- the nature of the industry over time. So, uh, fashion trends, uh, in- in the clothing industry, you'll see. At any given time, there's a- a- a- a general wave of fashion which pushes most of the people in the industry in a given direction at a given time. What makes people stand out is the ability to look at the various possibilities out there and say, "Here is something which is genuinely useful, but which is currently being underused, underutilized, and I want to bring that back in and develop it." And because it's an inherently useful product, it will be very, very successful in its initial applications against people who aren't currently using it. Um, if you can do this in whate- ever industry you're in, I believe you'll be highly successful.

   14. LFLex Fridman3:33

       So, this applies both for actual specific, like, techniques and the...

   15. JDJohn Danaher3:38

       Also tactics as well, in the case of- o- o- of jiu-jitsu. So, for example, in my sport, leg locks have always been around, okay? There's- there's no shortage of people, you can look back in history, who are applying leg locks. Nonetheless, as in across the industry, leg locks were undervalued and underappreciated. There was a general sense in which most of the leading figures of the sport, uh, for most of the history of the sport of jiu-jitsu tended to de-emphasize leg locks. And, uh, when I looked at them, I said there w- there was immense potential, but it wasn't being realized, and needed to be changed. Um, since then, that has more or less occurred. Now, most people coming into the sport understand that leg locks are an important aspect, and they're no longer undervalued. If anything, it's gone too far the other way. Now, perhaps they're a little overvalued. Um, and the... Uh, this kind of, uh, fashion trend exists in every industry. And the job of anyone who wants to excel in a given industry is to be able to identify, okay, what are the things that are currently out of fashion and undervalued? And then look at what is their actual objective value, and then work, uh, to- to, uh, to bring them back to the forefront.

   16. LFLex Fridman4:55

       So, John brought up fashion. Uh, Georges is wearing a really sexy shirt, so...

   17. GSGeorges St-Pierre5:00

       (laughs)

   18. LFLex Fridman5:01

       Uh, assuming that's not the reason, is there, um... Is- is there something that comes to mind as the key to the success of your incredible career?

   19. GSGeorges St-Pierre5:08

       Well, o- of course, e- everybody knows the famous answer that every athletes r- are saying, "Oh, it could be genetic. I'm- I was maybe gifted, had certain predisposition, I worked really hard." But I think something that people don't talk enough is, when everybody sometime go right, I was never afraid to try to go left. And I failed many time trying to do things that were not, uh, uh, known to be things that would br- brought me, brought me success, but I- I- I tried it. You know, I- I was... Very often, I was the first of trying new things, and I failed many time. But certain times, it gives me a certain advantage. And, um, for example, I was sometime fighting guys that had much better wrestling background than- than me on paper. And nobody before...... that fought those guys. Never, nobody had dared to try to take them down because their wrestling pedigree were so good. And I didn't have, on paper, the wrestling pedigree to take these guys down in, in a fight. But when everybody tried to go right, I was going left. I, I, I, I fought them in a different way and that was the blueprint to beat cert- some of these guys. You know what I mean? You know what I mean? So...

   20. LFLex Fridman6:34

       Yeah. So we'll actually talk about a few fights where you did just that. That's, it's fascinating. Um, but let, let's say at the high level. So Gordon, again, sticking on fashion. May I compliment your incredible badass hat?

   21. GRGordon Ryan6:46

       I'm trying to fit in here. (laughs)

   22. GSGeorges St-Pierre6:49

       (laughs)

   23. LFLex Fridman6:49

       We should say we're in Texas now, so he's, uh, be- become a Texan overnight. Uh, so what, is there something you can speak to that you would, uh, attribute to as the key to your success?

   24. GRGordon Ryan6:59

       Yeah. So first of all, there has to be a rule where you don't ask us all the same questions, because how am I supposed to compete with the answer John just gave?

   25. LFLex Fridman7:05

       (laughs)

   26. GRGordon Ryan7:06

       That was like ... There's nothing I can do that's gonna top that.

   27. LFLex Fridman7:08

       Yeah.

   28. GRGordon Ryan7:08

       Um, but, uh, I, I think it's, uh, a, a ... There's many things, but I think the number one thing is just, is John. Um, when I came in, uh, I was a blue belt, and I was beating brown and black belts in competition already. Uh, but he really changed my way of thinking about the sport. I would just come in, and if something wasn't working, I would just do it harder and faster and more aggressively. And that just degenerated me into a, degenerated into me spastically knee-sliding into cross hashi garami against Eddie Cummings for six months and then just getting heel hooked repeatedly. And, uh, I'm like, "This is not working." And Eddie, like, when I met him, was like a chubby, librarian-looking guy. And I'm like, there's n- I'm like 6'2", like a jacked, like 170. And I'm like, "There's no way I'm losing to a guy who looks like this." But he just kept heel hooking me. So I would just go harder and harder, and it wouldn't work. And then John's like, "Well, if you learned leg locks, you might, you might have some more success." And then I was like, "Yeah, that probably makes sense." And, uh, from then on, I kinda just changed the, the way I thought about the sport. Instead of doing things, doing things harder, I would actually try to get better at jujitsu.

   29. LFLex Fridman8:10

       Do you remember like a turning point where you became, as opposed to being mediocre, not just in technique, but in approach to, uh, to great?

   30. GRGordon Ryan8:22

       Um, I think it was somewhere around brown belt level, when I was training consistently. Started training full time with John when I was purple belt, mid-level purple belt. Um, and towards the end of my brown belt, uh, days, I was beating up like legitimate, like ADCC champions in the gym. Um, so I think like brown to black belt was a big thing for me. And then when I won my first EBI and I was, I submitted Iury, who won ADCC, and I beat Roustam. Um, so I think that was like my turning point as a competitor. But I think I started to, to reach world level a little bit before that, I think somewhere around brown belt. Mid-level to late-level brown belt.
3. 15:54 – 19:02

   Trash talk

   1. GSGeorges St-Pierre15:54

   2. GRGordon Ryan15:54

      And I talk so much shit that I'm like, "Man, if I lose-

   3. GSGeorges St-Pierre15:57

      (laughs)

   4. GRGordon Ryan15:57

      ... this is gonna be, this is gonna be rough." So...

   5. LFLex Fridman15:59

      Yeah. You put a lot of... I mean, that's, that's a hard thing to do when you talk shit. When you, when you play the heel, is so much-

   6. GRGordon Ryan16:07

      You have to perform.

   7. LFLex Fridman16:08

      ... e- the pressure is... I mean, you have to be good under pressure. It's the Conor McGregor thing.

   8. GRGordon Ryan16:13

      You know, the reason I actually started talking shit was actually, like, indirectly because of George.

   9. LFLex Fridman16:19

      (laughs)

   10. GRGordon Ryan16:19

       Because, because I won-

   11. LFLex Fridman16:21

       I will become the opposite of George. (laughs)

   12. GRGordon Ryan16:22

       I won, I won my first EBI, and I, I didn't talk shit. And everyone was like, being like, "Oh, you know, he only beat Yuri because, um, because he was tired," or, uh, you know, this or that. "And if they had the rematch under any of the rules, that he would've lost." And I'm, like, trying to figure out what I'm gonna do. So, I'm scrolling through George's feed one day, and he posted a clip of him beating someone. And I look at the comments, and I'm... With this in mind, I'm like, "George is the nicest person of all time." And if you look at the comments, it's like 10,000 comments, and like 9,900 are just people calling him, like, "All you do is lay and pray, you pussy. You suck-"

   13. LFLex Fridman16:59

       (laughs)

   14. GRGordon Ryan16:59

       "... you can't finish anybody." And I'm just, I'm looking at this and I'm like, "People are gonna say what they're gonna say regardless."

   15. GSGeorges St-Pierre17:05

       (laughs)

   16. GRGordon Ryan17:05

       "They're gonna talk shit regardless, so you may as well just say whatever you want, and then just be yourself."

   17. LFLex Fridman17:11

       Is there some aspect this... I mentioned Conor McGregor. He, uh, he crossed the line with Khabib, at least in the eyes of Khabib. Is there something you ever regret about crossing a line, or does that... Do you ever feel like there is a line, or do you just keep pushing the line?

   18. GRGordon Ryan17:27

       Uh, I, I basically play it per, per person. I just, I, I basically fire back with, like, one step above what, what they do.

   19. LFLex Fridman17:34

       It's always plus one.

   20. GRGordon Ryan17:35

       Yeah, yeah.

   21. LFLex Fridman17:36

       Okay. (laughs) Um-

   22. GRGordon Ryan17:39

       So, I go, I usually go hard, like they fire a bullet, then I drop a duke.

   23. LFLex Fridman17:42

       Right.

   24. GRGordon Ryan17:42

       And then, and then after that initial shot, then we go back and forth, and I'll just keep one-upping them.

   25. LFLex Fridman17:48

       So, you know, there's a lot of people that love you, but there's also a lot of people that love to hate you.

   26. GRGordon Ryan17:53

       Yeah.

   27. LFLex Fridman17:54

       Is... So, like, what... Do those people, like, energize you, or do you just... Uh, or is it funny to you? Like, what... As an athlete, as a performer, do you just not think about them? It's like a fun thing outside of yourself?

   28. GRGordon Ryan18:07

       It's like a, it's like a, it's just like a fun thing that keeps me occupied. Like, because, like, 'cause most of them that, like, talk shit, they, like, just say stuff that's factually incorrect, so then I just argue with, like, actual statistics.

   29. LFLex Fridman18:17

       Yeah.

   30. GRGordon Ryan18:18

       And it's just like..."You suck," or, "You're not gonna beat this person." I'm like, "I've already submitted that guy." Um, so it just... It riles them up and it just, it's just a fun thing for me to do on my, on my downtime.
4. 19:02 – 27:25

   Doubt

   1. LFLex Fridman19:02

      are there times in your life you had to... Y- you were surrounded by people that, that doubted you?

   2. GSGeorges St-Pierre19:07

      Oh, all the time.

   3. LFLex Fridman19:08

      And so what's... Is there something you could say as... In, by way of advice how you overcome-

   4. GSGeorges St-Pierre19:14

      Uh.

   5. LFLex Fridman19:14

      ... the doubt, either yourself or others around you?

   6. GSGeorges St-Pierre19:17

      I... All the time, uh, f- f- the first time I, I manifest my desire to become a professional mixed martial art athlete, everybody doubt me. Just not even... I'm not talking about UFC, just to become a professional fighter, everybody doubt me. Then I became a, (laughs) I became a professional fighter. I had few amateur fight, I won them all. Then I, I fought my first fight in, in, uh, Montreal, I won, and I became a professional. Then I, I told people that I wanted to fight in UFC, everybody doubt me again. So (laughs) it's a normal thing. So I worked my way up, beat a few guys. Then I... At the time, uh, Pete Spratt was, uh... Just knocked, knocked out Robbie Lawler with leg kick. And, uh, the person who was my agent at the time did a great move, uh, for me. So he brought Pete Spratt in Montreal to fight me. Pete Spratt came to Montreal. I... And I believe he didn't know who I was, so he thought that he was coming to collect a, an easy paycheck, and I, and I am... End up beating him. So that gave me the opportunity to fight in UFC. Then after I was in UFC, I wanted to become champion of the world, you know? But Matt Hughes was there, and he seems invincible at the time. So everybody doubt me again, and I became world champion. And after, when you... When I was world champion, I wanted to be... I was competing against other world champion of other weight class for the, the title, you know, for the legacy and everything. So I was not... No longer competing as my opponent. I was, you know... As a competitor, you always... You, you never wanted to be... You never want to be satisfied. Because when... Satisfaction is the death. You know, when you're satisfied, you better retire, because it's, it's over. So always, I have to find motivation, what you can have more. I want more. Don't be satisfied in life. So I wanted to be, like, the best, you know? I want... So I was competing, you know, like to, to become the, the best and, and... And, of course, people doubt, doubt you all the time. Every time you s- you say something that it's outside of the norm, of the normality... I don't wanna say... There, there's nothing normal, but I'm talking about when you, you manifest your desire to do something that takes special attribute to, to, to succeed or, or that is something that is hard to, to do, it's... For sure you're gonna always have people that doubt you.

   7. LFLex Fridman21:43

      It's so strange that people don't, they don't lean in to supporting... Like people that love you too.

   8. GSGeorges St-Pierre21:48

      Yeah, even people that love me used to doubt me. And I believe I, I... You need to use that as a positive thi- positive thing, as a motivation-

   9. LFLex Fridman21:59

      Yeah.

   10. GSGeorges St-Pierre21:59

       ... to prove them wrong.

   11. LFLex Fridman22:00

       Yeah.

   12. GSGeorges St-Pierre22:01

       So for me, that, that was the thing, uh, when someone doubt me, nothing gave me more this... More energy, because I want to prove him wrong, I want to look at him in the face and say, "Hey, you see? (clicks tongue) I got you, man. I, I did it."

   13. LFLex Fridman22:15

       So, uh, John, do you ever use this in one way or the other by saying, "I don't think you can do this," to motivate them to pro- to prove you wrong? Or more general question of, um, you know, uh, the, the mental toughness required to achieve, or confidence required to achieve greatness? Like, what's your role as a coach when you have these two athletes?

   14. JDJohn Danaher22:35

       With regards to your, your first question, would I ever say to someone, "You can't do this," as a kind of reverse psychology? Uh, no. Um, uh, my job is to prepare people first and foremost with their skills. And, uh, as Gordon pointed out earlier, if you're in any way a rational human being, and you're noticing that you're getting tremendous success with a given move in the gym against high level opponents who give a good read on what your actual opponent in a competition is, is like, you would have to be a moron to not recognize that kind of success and say, "This is something I should be building into my game," and you will carry the confidence that you earned in the gym into the arena. So I never try to use re- reverse psychology. I'd, I'd build up, uh... Everything I do in terms of confidence is to give people physical skills. I know people say, "Oh, there's physicality on the one hand, and there's mentality on the other," and confidence is squarely in the, the mental aspect of the game. But all the underpinnings and beginnings of confidence are physical. Okay? A, a rational human being will see where they're having success and where they're having failure, and confidence will, uh, surround those areas where they're having success and will degenerate in cases where they're, they're having, uh, failure. So my job as a coach is to set them up for success in the gym with a given set of skills, and I don't have to do anything psychologically after that. I just... If, if I can set you up to be highly successful with a given move or a set of tactics 10 times in a row against quality opposition in the gym, I don't have to do a damn thing when it comes to instilling confidence. I, I, I will tell people, "Hey, you're doing a really good job with that move. It's working well for you." But-... when they nod in agreement, I'm not trying to force anything on them. They're recognized, they were, they already recognized that long before the words came out of my mouth. But on the other hand, intelligent, rational people will recognize when they're failing with given moves, and no amount of talk on my part can ever change that. If I teach Gordon, uh, a given arm lock, and 15 times in a row, he tries it over a month, and all 15 are failures, there's nothing I can say verbally to come up to Gordon and say, "Hey, you're really good at that move." He's gonna look at me and say, "Bullshit, I'm, I'm terrible at it." And that will create a crisis of confidence where Gordon no longer believes the words coming out of my mouth. So I will never compromise that.

   15. LFLex Fridman25:18

       But isn't there a line, you just said 15, there, you have to believe that, uh, doing this arm lock f- 15 times over a period of a month is worth it, because eventually you might get it. Like-

   16. JDJohn Danaher25:31

       Yeah, that, that's a separate issue. That, that's a separate issue. The, um... there are times where I've more or less pushed athletes to go in a certain direction. For example, um, when I first met Garry Tonon, he never had a guillotine strangle. And I, I would say to him, "Garry, you know, you're a scrambler. Like, one of the greatest weapons a scrambler can ever develop is a guillotine. Like, it should be in your arsenal." And he was like, "Eh, no, I just scramble for the back." And I said, "Well, there's gonna be a day you can't take someone's back, and it's always good to be able to strangle from front and back, okay?" Of course, we all prefer our strangles from the back, that makes sense, but there's gonna come a day where it's gonna be useful for you. And so that was one of the few times where I put my foot down and said, "You're learning this, shut the fuck up." And, um, uh-

   17. GSGeorges St-Pierre26:21

       (laughs) He, like, literally wouldn't teach him any, uh, anything else until he got a guillotine. G- Garry would, like, ask him a question, he's like, "Let's see your guillotine."

   18. LFLex Fridman26:26

       (laughs)

   19. JDJohn Danaher26:29

       And, um, for the first three months, uh, as gifted as, as Garry Tonon is in learning most moves, most moves Garry gets it, like, i- in, in minutes. There was something going on with Garry just couldn't get a guillotine on people. And, uh, finally, after around three months, he started having some success, until ultimately, it became one of his best weapons. Um, we had to go through, like, 15 different variations of guillotine, until he found one which actually worked reliably for him. And that was one of the few times where I put my foot down and said, "No, you, you have to learn this."

   20. LFLex Fridman27:03

       So the long search had to do more with the physical characteristics-

   21. JDJohn Danaher27:06

       Yeah.

   22. LFLex Fridman27:06

       ... like, he couldn't figure out the right-

   23. JDJohn Danaher27:07

       Yeah.

   24. LFLex Fridman27:07

       ... kind of-

   25. JDJohn Danaher27:07

       Like, it made sense, it made sense in the case of Garry Tonon, because there were more opportunities per minute of his grappling for guillotines, uh, that the investment in time was worth it. For another athlete, I might have said, "Well, he hardly ever gets in a situation for front headlongs or guillotines, so it's not even worth investing the training time."

5. 27:25 – 39:21

   Emotions

   1. JDJohn Danaher27:25

   2. LFLex Fridman27:25

      Let me ask you a question on the, on the competition side. You mentioned haters. And do you think about this aspect of the competition with the athletes?

   3. JDJohn Danaher27:33

      It, it, that's a great question, and, um, the answer is no.

   4. LFLex Fridman27:36

      (laughs)

   5. JDJohn Danaher27:38

      Um... uh, I'm... you can see that you could, you couldn't find two more polar opposites, psychologically than, than George St-Pierre and, uh, this monstrosity on my left. And, um, I've, I've never said to my athletes, "Hey, I think this is the sort of demeanor you should carry yourself with." I'm, myself, a very flawed character, and I'm the last person on Earth who should be delving out moral advice to other people. Um, the only thing is that I, I, you know, of course I believe some things are off limits, but as long as it's done in the context of sport where no one's physically attacking people or doing anything crazy where it just goes completely over the top, then, uh, I, I give almost zero, um, moral advice to my athletes. I'm a judo coach, not a preacher.

   6. GSGeorges St-Pierre28:29

      Lex, I, I, if I can, if I may, we, we are entertainers, you know? We're, we're athletes, we're professional athlete, but we make, we, we make a living because of people are, want to see us perform. Same thing an actor, same thing a singer. And a lot of the time, es- especially in the fight game, uh, uh, an event is promoted, it needs to be with emotion. Love me, hate me, but do not ignore me. Um, and, you know, it, it, when it's authentic and, uh, uh, and, i- i- and it- and it- it's done well, I think me, my personally, my, my favorite fighters to watch are the one that are the, that ha- uh, that have a s- some sort of a bad persona. I really enjoy wa- watching those guys, because they bring a, an emotion element into a fight, which is great, you know? I, I, I, I feel, to me, it's more interesting to watch when there is emotion involved. And I believe that's why some fighters make more money than (laughs) others, you know? You know what I mean? That's the reason why we make, we can make a living o- out of this.

   7. LFLex Fridman29:41

      Yeah, they're better entertainers. But you're right, the authenticity seems to be really important there.

   8. GSGeorges St-Pierre29:45

      Mm-hmm.

   9. JDJohn Danaher29:46

      There's actually something very interesting there. Um, it's time to break out some, some secrets.

   10. GSGeorges St-Pierre29:50

       (laughs)

   11. JDJohn Danaher29:52

       Do you know who... like, like you think of George St-Pierre, you think of, like, the highly technical, polished martial artist.

   12. GSGeorges St-Pierre29:59

       Oh, this is gonna be great.

   13. JDJohn Danaher30:00

       Do you know who his favorite fighters to watch were? You'd probably be thinking, oh, probably someone who's really technically advanced, uh. Actually, it was Mark Coleman-

   14. LFLex Fridman30:13

       Oh, no.

   15. JDJohn Danaher30:14

       ... Kevin Randleman, and Phil Baroni. He used to love watching them. That was The Hammer House, that was (laughs) his favorite.

   16. LFLex Fridman30:20

       Wow.

   17. JDJohn Danaher30:20

       He would love those guys.

   18. LFLex Fridman30:22

       (laughs)

   19. JDJohn Danaher30:22

       And, uh, whenever their fights were on, George would be watching The Hammer House crew.

   20. LFLex Fridman30:26

       Oh.

   21. JDJohn Danaher30:26

       And, um, uh, it's funny what you said about how that, those guys brought a, an intensity to, to MMA that was off the charts. If you ever met those guys in-... uh, in, in their prime. Let me tell you, it was, it was something to behold. And, um-

   22. LFLex Fridman30:43

       (laughs)

   23. JDJohn Danaher30:43

       ... they had this crazy, larger than life personality that, most of the things they did made no sense whatsoever. But-

   24. LFLex Fridman30:50

       I mean, technically.

   25. JDJohn Danaher30:50

       ... but that was their appeal.

   26. LFLex Fridman30:52

       Yeah.

   27. JDJohn Danaher30:52

       A- a- and there were these guys, and, and George loved to watch them more than anyone else.

   28. LFLex Fridman30:56

       They just swing

   29. GSGeorges St-Pierre30:56

       You never knew what-

   30. LFLex Fridman30:57

       ... walk forward.
6. 39:21 – 43:30

   Gordon's beef with André Galvão

   1. JDJohn Danaher39:21

   2. LFLex Fridman39:22

      Speaking of emotion, uh, Gordon, you, uh, will potentially, if you're healthy, face Andre Galvao in the ADCC coming up-

   3. GRGordon Ryan39:32

      Yeah.

   4. LFLex Fridman39:32

      ... uh, super fight. Uh, who is Andre Galvao for people who don't know? Can you tell the story of your beef with, uh, the- the emotional interaction with the man?

   5. GRGordon Ryan39:43

      Yeah. So, uh, Andre is, uh, he's considered the greatest ADCC competitor of all time. Uh, multiple time black belt world champion, uh, winningest ADCC champion ever. He has six- six gold medals. And, uh, I've been trying to compete against him pretty much forever. Like, since I got my black belt in 2016, I've been trying to get matches with him. Uh, he was in the first EBI that I did, and he ended up pulling out, and then I've been trying to get matches with him. And, uh, he would always say no and give one reason or another. And then, uh, after the last ADCC, I was like, "Hey, Andre said he was retiring after this- after this, uh- this competition. So if he wants to retire, you know, he's- he's the greatest ADCC competitor of all time, and I think it's great, but if he wants to compete, then that's great too." I was like super nice. And then he started, like, posting, like, passive-aggressive Instagram, uh, uh, captions. And, uh, then we started going back and forth in the internet. And there was, like, one point where I saw him in person when he acknowledged, he's like, "I understand, like, what you're doing. Like, we're gonna pump this fight up," and he was, like, totally on board. But then there must have been something that happened where, like, he- it changed from, like, him, like, going along with it to being, like, actually pissed. And then, uh, there was the one night at Flo where I went to go shake his hand and he- he flipped me off, and then he followed me backstage and started to try to fight me, and then I smacked him, and then he didn't wanna fight anymore.

   6. LFLex Fridman41:10

      (inhales)

   7. GRGordon Ryan41:10

      And then we've been going back. He's actually blocked me on Instagram now, so he- we wo- he just won't engage. No one from Atos will engage now. But it's gonna be interesting how he- how he shows up, if he can keep it under control or not.

   8. LFLex Fridman41:21

      Do you think... How do you explain that level of emotion? Is this fear of losing your throne? Is it... Or is it just a human being, like with Cyborg, just- just becoming emotionally unstable? What-

   9. GRGordon Ryan41:34

      It might just be me. I just have a way to get- get under people's skin. It just... I don't know. Uh, he's- he's- he was- he was cool for a while, and then I just... I don't know. It just... The- everyone gets like this. They're all so emotional by the time they actually step up to compete that it's pretty easy to read them. They're either so emotional that they wanna actually come forward and- and beat me. Like, uh, like, Tim Spriggs is a perfect example at ADCC. I posted, like, uh, on my story on Instagram, like, 10 minutes before our match. Uh, I said, like, "What I'm gonna do to Tim Spriggs is gonna be criminal." And he's, like, a very stally guy. And he came, he saw that, and then he came out and actually tried to fight me. Like, he came and actually engaged my guard, and I ended up submitting him. So it either has that effect or it has the effect where they know I've talked so much shit leading up to the match that they're so afraid to lose that they just get super stally and they move away. So it either has one effect where they come forward and they wanna- they wanna beat me beat me, or they wanna just- they're so afraid of getting submitted that they know if they engage, they're super cagey and they just back away and don't really do anything.

   10. LFLex Fridman42:33

       Do you think this match happens?

   11. GRGordon Ryan42:35

       There's a lot of variables. One, I have to see how my stomach is. And two, if I'm actually gonna show up and compete and my stomach's healthy, I doubt that Andre will actually show up to compete.... I've been trying to compete against him for six years, and he hasn't done it, so there's no reason to think he would now.

   12. LFLex Fridman42:50

       Is it possible for you to speak to where, like, your estimates are about your stomach, or is it un- too unclear for now?

   13. GRGordon Ryan42:56

       It's still too early to tell. I have this round of treatment that I'm doing until late February, and then I'm pretty sure that they need to do the same test they did initially to retest all my levels and then go from there, so. I've been feeling a little bit better. Like, it's not nearly as bad as it used to be. Um, I was explaining to someone the other day, like, for the last four years, I would be so nauseous that every time I would walk into a new room, I'd have to actively locate a garbage can in case I have to throw up. So I'm like one step above that right now. I'm, like, doing a little bit better than that.

   14. LFLex Fridman43:26

       (laughs)

   15. GRGordon Ryan43:26

       Um, so it's definitely getting a little bit better, but it's not, it's not where it needs to be.

7. 43:30 – 53:31

   Diet

   1. GRGordon Ryan43:30

   2. LFLex Fridman43:30

      Can we, can we talk about diet for just a sec? Because, uh, both of you, uh, Georges and, and Gordon, like suffered from s- stomach issues, different kind, um, and have arrived for now for d- at different places. So can you, maybe Georges speak to, um, the general question of what is the best diet for performance, for training? Like, h- what have you learned through your career about this?

   3. GSGeorges St-Pierre43:54

      Well, I, I think everybody is different. Um, to me personally, uh, I implement fasting, um, time-restricted eating, and, and prolonged fasting. I think-

   4. LFLex Fridman44:07

      What's the longest you've done so far? You've-

   5. GSGeorges St-Pierre44:09

      The longest I've done is five days.

   6. LFLex Fridman44:11

      You've done five days.

   7. GSGeorges St-Pierre44:11

      I do it quite often. I do, I do four time a year, I do three to five days, uh, water fast. Um, and I ha- I liked it. It helps me with inflammation. I think it boosts the immune system, and, uh, that, that's about the- the... I read papers about, about this. And, uh, it helps me also feel, feel good. It's kind of, uh, ther- very therapeutic to me.

   8. LFLex Fridman44:37

      Oh, physical and mental? Or just mental?

   9. GSGeorges St-Pierre44:38

      Yeah, men- mental and physical because when I eat my... when I break my fast, and I sit at the table with, with other people, it doesn't matter what I eat. If we all eat the same thing, I always tell them, I said, "My, my food right now tastes better than all of yours." You know? Because I, you know, I, I have th- this thing that I th- I believe sometime you need to put yourself into suffering to realize how pleasurable something is. And, uh, I, uh, can't... personally, like diet-wise, I eat whatever I want-

   10. LFLex Fridman45:16

       Mm-hmm.

   11. GSGeorges St-Pierre45:17

       ... whenever I want. I don't, I no longer have any problem with this. But if I would have a competition coming up, like, knowing that I... what I know now about my body, I would orient myself m- more towards an animal-based diet. That's... because I've tried different things, and that's the kind of diet that I believe helped me having less inflammation and feel better in terms of performance for, for, for doing something physical.

   12. LFLex Fridman45:47

       So high protein, high fat, low carbs?

   13. GSGeorges St-Pierre45:50

       Well, i- i- it's... this is... is different between animal-based diet and keto.

   14. LFLex Fridman45:54

       Mm-hmm.

   15. GSGeorges St-Pierre45:55

       I mean, there is carbs. There, there is a lot of fruit. Uh, I get a lot of the, the, the, the carbs from the fruit.

   16. LFLex Fridman46:00

       Okay.

   17. GSGeorges St-Pierre46:01

       Uh, a lot of organs, organs, um-

   18. LFLex Fridman46:04

       Organ meats, yeah.

   19. GSGeorges St-Pierre46:06

       I know a little bit about paleontology and, and the, the past o- o- on... about prehistoric human. And I, I know that, um... and not, not only about that, I know because I, I've traveled c- certain place in the world. I went to, to visit the Maasai in Africa, the hunter-gatherer tribe. And I know that when they kill an animal, they go for the organs first. And I know a pre- most predatory animal, they do the same thing. So organs, I believe, is something that normally in, in our culture, in, in the Western part of the world, we don't really eat, but it's something that is very nutritious.

   20. LFLex Fridman46:41

       Have you been able to convince Gordon to try fasting?

   21. GSGeorges St-Pierre46:45

       (laughs)

   22. GRGordon Ryan46:46

       We always talk about diets.

   23. GSGeorges St-Pierre46:48

       It's a different situation, I think, for Gordon because he's an heavyweight.

   24. LFLex Fridman46:52

       Yeah.

   25. GSGeorges St-Pierre46:52

       He, he doesn't want to lose weight.

   26. LFLex Fridman46:53

       Yeah.

   27. GSGeorges St-Pierre46:53

       You know, when a heavyweight... the range of a... like my, my range was... like I was a welterweight and middleweight. But heavyweight, it's like some of the guys that you compe- can compete against, they're-

   28. LFLex Fridman47:03

       Yeah.

   29. GSGeorges St-Pierre47:03

       ... they might be 300 pounds. So if you lose weight, it's a, it's a big problem. You know what I mean? So... and there is things that will work for me that might not work for Gordon, you know? So you have to make his own experience. And I, and I told Gordon, "Sometime when everybody goes left, try to go right. See how you feel with certain things."

   30. LFLex Fridman47:21

       Experiment. Not, not a topic, uh, that's part of your optimization, optimal performance formula?
8. 53:31 – 1:21:40

   Training

   1. LFLex Fridman53:31

      about this. So, so what do you believe is the value of, um, of, you know, training outside of the sport? So fitness, lifting heavy, lifting explosive, all kinds of lifting. Do you-

   2. JDJohn Danaher53:44

      I believe, uh, uh, personally, for me, I believe, and I- I've learned that from, from John. Uh, I used to, to do, like ... to train like a bodybuilder be- before, because I thought, in my early days of competition, that was the most efficient way to do things, to ... because it was like, I was watching Jean-Claude Van Damme, Arnold Schwarzenegger. We thought back, back in the day that was the thing, that that's how we should do it, you know, for ... to, to get ready for a fight. But I realized later on, uh, that it's all about efficiency. And some guys, they don't lift at all, and they're doing pretty well. So I do cross-training, mostly for longevity. Mo- ... it's mostly for therapeutic ... therap- ther- uh, like a therapy. It's more therapeutic than for performance. It's to keep my body healthy, to do certain movement that are different than what I do every day in the gym, in combat sport, to keep me, uh, healthy and, and a- athletic.

   3. LFLex Fridman54:50

      So all the interesting movement stuff that you've done outside the sport, that was for therapeutic?

   4. JDJohn Danaher54:55

      Thera- mostly therapeutic.

   5. LFLex Fridman54:56

      Uh-

   6. JDJohn Danaher54:56

      I think it does ... it could trans- tran- transcend to performance, but it's mostly therapeutic. I do not believe that squatting ...... five plates or- or bench- bench pressing, uh, three plate will make me a better fighter. I do not... I- I believe actually it could hurt me more. It could damage me more than- than benefit me.

   7. LFLex Fridman55:18

      So, Gordon is somebody who, uh, on Instagram posts a lot of pictures of you being shredded and huge. Uh, what's the value of- (laughs) of strength in sport?

   8. GRGordon Ryan55:28

      So I do like a combination of... Uh, John got us big into like gymnastics type movements, uh, like toes to bar and muscle ups and things like that, when we were- we were young. Um, like toes to bar because that's like the exact motion you have to do when you're retaining guard is knees to chest. Um, so I do a lot of that stuff. Uh, in combination with, I do a lot of, opposite of George, I do a lot of bodybuilding workouts. Um, where I do like a basic split, like a chest and triceps, back and biceps day. Um, and my idea is that weightlifting should always be a supplement to jujitsu. So you- you shouldn't be missing a jujitsu session to lift weights. Um, so I don't do... I do probably, I train in jujitsu every day and then I lift three to four times a week. Um, I feel like lifting seven days a week for me is- is too much and the lifting takes a lot of energy when you do like hard lifts like that. Um, but my idea is if you want to get good at jujitsu, do jujitsu. And if you wanna be bigger and stronger, lift weights and- uh, and- and eat food. And, um, I- I generally don't go super heavy when I lift 'cause you start putting crazy weights then start tearing muscles and stuff. Um, so I usually do moderate weights with a- with a very high rep- rep range, like four sets of 20 with a drop set at the end to fatigue the muscles, break the fibers and grow.

   9. LFLex Fridman56:47

      Okay, so- oh, four sets of 20. That's interesting. So th- that's more for endurance than raw strength.

   10. GRGordon Ryan56:53

       Yeah. And also, I think closer to competition, I'll pick the intensity up. And while there's no real way to get significant gains in VO2 max, I think that lifting and just getting used to mentally redlining, um, gets me kind of in competition shape because a lot of times in jujitsu, the guys I'm training with, they're not on a technical level where they can physically exhaust me to the point where I feel like I'm gonna die. But, uh, I get most of that like when I'm wrestling 'cause I'm not as efficient in wrestling so I get a lot more tired. Um, and lifting, when you do like... If you do like four sets of 20 leg press to squat and you go back and forth, like you're like about to die at the end. And, um, I think I feel like it gets me in the mental habit of redlining before competition.

   11. LFLex Fridman57:37

       But does muscle help you?

   12. GRGordon Ryan57:39

       What's that?

   13. LFLex Fridman57:39

       So like the actual mass of muscle, like that's still a-

   14. GRGordon Ryan57:42

       I think being stronger will always help in a combat sport.

   15. LFLex Fridman57:44

       Will always help?

   16. GRGordon Ryan57:45

       Yeah. To some degree. It's not gonna be to a degree where it overrides efficiency, but I think that it can't help being str- or it can't hurt being stronger.

   17. LFLex Fridman57:55

       Well, there's a- a bunch of people who believe, depending on the sport, that, um, strength can qu- quickly become, um... That have detrimental effects to efficiency. So like-

   18. GRGordon Ryan58:07

       Yes, I agree with that.

   19. LFLex Fridman58:08

       ... certain kind... I mean, if strength is pure, is like very cleanly, purely applied to the exact movements of the sport. So in judo, the explosiveness you need is very difficult to replicate in any kind of way except by doing judo.

   20. GRGordon Ryan58:22

       Yeah. I mean, for us, uh, we always have to understand there's only so much technique that can overcome a certain amount of strength. Like if we all try to fight a silverback gorilla, it's gonna kill us.

   21. LFLex Fridman58:34

       (laughs)

   22. GRGordon Ryan58:34

       Um, but that- that being said, um, I do think that... (laughs) Like for example, heavyweights are usually the least technical because they rely on their size and strength to beat smaller people. Um, but I think that if you stay with the s- with the discipline of doing everything very precise... And I train with a lot smaller people most of the time so I get out of the habit of using, uh, using my strength. Um, and I think if you're very precise with the way that you train, I think that the- the extra size and strength can help you.

   23. LFLex Fridman59:02

       Quick question. How would you fight a silverback gorilla?

   24. GRGordon Ryan59:05

       (sighs)

   25. LFLex Fridman59:07

       I mean, is there... What- which animal do you think you can actually defeat that would be impressive, that most people would say you can't?

   26. GRGordon Ryan59:14

       You know, I actually... I don't have an- uh, an- an answer to this.

   27. LFLex Fridman59:18

       I thought you were gonna say... (laughs) I bet you did.

   28. GRGordon Ryan59:18

       But I want- I want- I wanna say that me and John had like a four-hour discussion on this one time.

   29. LFLex Fridman59:24

       (laughs)

   30. GRGordon Ryan59:24

       I'm like, "What would win, bear or gorilla?" And he went into like this whole dissertation about how like jaguars spin underneath and like bear can follow silverbacks and kill them and like rip their- rip their artery in their legs out. It was amazing.

Episode duration: 2:59:01