Georges St-Pierre: The Science of Fighting | Lex Fridman Podcast #179

1. 0:00 – 1:29

   Introduction

   1. LFLex Fridman0:00

      The following is a conversation with Georges St-Pierre, considered by many to be the greatest fighter in the history of UFC and MMA, but even more than that, one of the greatest martial artists ever. Quick mention of our sponsors: Allform, ExpressVPN, Blinkist, Theragun, and The Information. Check them out in the description to support this podcast. As a side note, let me say that getting the chance to hang out with Georges, talk to him on the podcast, record a quick self-defense video that I'll release soon, all while both of us wearing suits, was one of the most memorable days of my life. In setting all this up, I talked to Joe Rogan and originally, we couldn't schedule a chat with him and Georges on the JRE, which allowed me to pretend for a brief time that Georges came down to Austin just to see me. Who the hell am I? In truth, him and Joe probably conspired to make me feel special, but that's the point. It's inspiring to see Georges and Joe, who are at the top of their field, treat others as equals, as human beings, no matter who they are, even silly Russians in a suit. Meeting Georges was an honor for me beyond words. This is the Lex Fridman Podcast, and here's my conversation with my longtime martial arts hero, and now my friend, Mr. Georges St-Pierre.

2. 1:29 – 4:21

   Love of winning

   1. LFLex Fridman1:29

      In your fighting career, were you more motivated by the love of winning or the fear and hatred of losing?

   2. GSGeorges St-Pierre1:38

      I like to win better than I hate to lose because if it would not have been the case, I would never have fought in the first place because I don't like to fight at all.

   3. LFLex Fridman1:50

      But you talked about the anxiety, the fear that you experienced leading up to a fight. So, to you, ultimately, the reason to go through that difficult process is because it feels damn good to have your hand raised?

   4. GSGeorges St-Pierre2:06

      There is that. There is also the fact that martial art had been introduced when I was very young and it's probably the best thing I can do in my life. Fighting is- it's- that's what I do best. Also, it provides me of freedom, of access of things that most of people do not have, um, but all that has a price. And a lot of money, I made a lot of money, of course, with it. I was maybe predisposed with certain abilities, I met incredible mentors throughout my life, I worked really hard, and, of course, I had a lot of chances. The- the stars were all aligned. And in order to- to kept- keep that- those advantages of freedom, money and glory and access of things that most people don't have and have th- this dream life that I have, I had to sacrifice myself and fight in order to keep it. It's very hard to understand because I also believe most fighters are not like me. They... A lot of guys, because I corner a lot of guys, and it seems to me that they love their job, they enjoyed to- to go fight in a cage. I love to train, I love the science of fighting, the sport, the f- to- to be in good shape, the confidence that training in mixed martial art give me. However, I do not like the feeling of uncertainty, the stress that I have not knowing if I will be badly injure or humiliated or winning the fight. It's, to me, unbearable and it... That's what takes the most out of me, more than brain damage, more than anything, that's what takes the most out of me.

   5. LFLex Fridman4:08

      But the thing you get from it is the freedom that you get because, uh, because of the money, but because of the celebrity, because of everything that comes with it.

   6. GSGeorges St-Pierre4:18

      Yeah.

   7. LFLex Fridman4:18

      So, you can be the best version of yourself because

3. 4:21 – 5:23

   Suffering

   1. LFLex Fridman4:21

      of fighting. But the- at the same time, you've said that, quote, "I don't believe there's pleasure in life. I believe there's only a relief from pain. We have to suffer to be on top." So, isn't there something to just the suffering in itself? Just doing really difficult shit just to get to the top?

   2. GSGeorges St-Pierre4:39

      To explain that and so people can relate to it, 'cause not everybody's a fighter, I think the best example I can s- gives is let's say you're... You haven't eat for a long time and you're craving, right? So, you're suffering. And then when it's time to eat finally, you're about to eat your favorite dish, it's gonna taste so much better. So, that's why I believe there is always a- some sort of sacrifice before the pleasure. And the more sacrifice you do...

   3. LFLex Fridman5:15

      (laughs)

   4. GSGeorges St-Pierre5:15

      Like, the- they say in fighting that the bigger the risk, b- bigger is the reward and I feel that's- that's how it- it is for me.

4. 5:23 – 15:22

   Fasting

   1. GSGeorges St-Pierre5:24

   2. LFLex Fridman5:24

      Yeah, I feel that with, um... I started fasting a little bit in the past couple of years and, uh, there's nothing as amazing as a delicious meal or anything, actually anything, any food when you haven't eaten for several days. It's- it's kind of incredible. Uh, and it's not incr- it's not incredible in the simple way of finally I get to eat.

   3. GSGeorges St-Pierre5:45

      (laughs)

   4. LFLex Fridman5:45

      It's you get to truly experience the- the beauty of- of what it is to be alive. Like, that little piece of food, you see all the flavors, you s- you- you- you feel just the experience of it is, uh, ultimately of gratitude, of how awesome it is to be alive.... but when you eat many times a day and you're pigging out-

   5. GSGeorges St-Pierre6:06

      (laughs)

   6. LFLex Fridman6:07

      ... you, you don't get to experience that, and it's fascinating. It's re- it's really, like, fasting is one of the most accessible things for people, I think, to experience that kind of, uh, pairing of hardship to pleasure.

   7. GSGeorges St-Pierre6:21

      I agree, and in my case, it changed my life on a good, good way. I cannot recommend it to people because everybody is different, but after my f- I, to, to fight Michael Bisping, my last fight was against, uh, the champion in the heavier weight class that I used to compete at. So, I thought that if I would gain weight, it would increase my performance.

   8. LFLex Fridman6:47

      Yeah.

   9. GSGeorges St-Pierre6:48

      And I struggled a lot to gain weight. I gained a lot, about 8 to 10, 10 pounds. Normally, I walk around 185 pounds, and for that fight, I was walking around 195. However, I forced myself to eat, like, six times a day. I was on a very, uh, strict diet, and I didn't feel, it didn't feel right to me because I feel like I, I was carrying, like, a little bit like I was carrying a bag on my shoulder.

   10. LFLex Fridman7:17

       Mm-hmm.

   11. GSGeorges St-Pierre7:18

       And I think it was a bad idea for me because when I did the weigh-in, the weigh-in and I, I, I go, went on the scale at 185, I couldn't go back to my initial weight that was 180, 195 that I worked so hard for several months-

   12. LFLex Fridman7:36

       Yeah.

   13. GSGeorges St-Pierre7:36

       ... to get there. So, I was 190 pounds, but I couldn't get back. And the morning of the fight, I, I, I, I got, I got sick. I had like a... We didn't know what, what it was in the beginning because in order to know, to find out what it was, I needed to do what they call a colonoscopy. They put a camera inside of you-

   14. LFLex Fridman7:57

       Mm-hmm.

   15. GSGeorges St-Pierre7:57

       ... and to do that, they give you the, um, something that make, that, that empty you. And I was trying to gain weight, not to lose weight.

   16. LFLex Fridman8:06

       (laughs)

   17. GSGeorges St-Pierre8:06

       (laughs) So, I, I told myself, uh, I, I'm gonna weigh it after the fight-

   18. LFLex Fridman8:10

       Yeah.

   19. GSGeorges St-Pierre8:10

       ... whatever it is, because it was pretty bad. It was blood, and it, I didn't know what I was. I was very concern- concerned. I thought I had maybe cancer. I was freaking out. So, I said, "I'm gonna do that fight, and then after, right away, I'm gonna make a check-up."

   20. LFLex Fridman8:24

       Mm-hmm.

   21. GSGeorges St-Pierre8:25

       So, I did the fight. Everything went well. I won the fight. I went back home. I did a colonoscopy, and I, I got diagnosed with ulcer colitis. Then I got on s- very severe medication, uh, to get better. And I'm not a big fan of medication. I always trying to look for more natural way to, to, to get better, and I found out about fasting. And, um, it really changed my life. I met Dr. Jason Fung, who's one of the, one of, one of the world authority o- of, on, of fasting. He treat diabetes patient with fasting. And he gave me a program of fasting, and, um, it really changed my life. And right away, what I did is I went in a, in a CAT scan to see the difference-

   22. LFLex Fridman9:14

       Mm-hmm.

   23. GSGeorges St-Pierre9:14

       ... because it was right after my fight with Michael Bisping, and I, I did the CAT scan. So I had my, uh, muscle mass, bone density, uh, fat percentage, water retention. It's pretty amazing. It can show you which arm has more muscle than, than the other.

   24. LFLex Fridman9:30

       (laughs)

   25. GSGeorges St-Pierre9:30

       It, it's very precise. And I did it, like, uh, two, two month after.

   26. LFLex Fridman9:35

       Yeah.

   27. GSGeorges St-Pierre9:35

       So, I, I start doing, um, time-restricted eating, uh, 16:8, but right a- right away when I started, I did three days water fast, and the doctor-

   28. LFLex Fridman9:46

       Nice.

   29. GSGeorges St-Pierre9:46

       ... Jason Fung, he says because I like to train during those days, I, uh, cons- I consume Himalayan salt to make sure, uh, because when you sweat, there's a lot of minerals, to, to make sure you don't deplete it, your mineral. And, um, when I went... When I compared the two result in the CAT scan, I found out my biggest concern was to lose muscle mass. I found out that I did not lose muscle mass. Instead of losing it, I, it increased a little bit. Even though my weight on the scale was lighter, I, I kept the same muscle mass, even increases a little bit. My bone density increases a little bit.

   30. LFLex Fridman10:25

       Mm-hmm.
5. 15:22 – 21:50

   Carnivore

   1. GSGeorges St-Pierre15:22

   2. LFLex Fridman15:22

      So, do you have a specific diet-wise, uh, stuff you like? So, like, you know, I've recently... another ridiculous sounding thing, but it makes me feel really good, is very low carbs. So, you know, keto, even carnivore. It sounds ridiculous. It doesn't make any sense. But it makes me feel really good even for performance.

   3. GSGeorges St-Pierre15:42

      Is... Rogan hasn't influenced you, huh? He's a-

   4. LFLex Fridman15:44

      No.

   5. GSGeorges St-Pierre15:44

      ... c- carnivore diet.

   6. LFLex Fridman15:45

      I was influenced actually-

   7. GSGeorges St-Pierre15:47

      (laughs)

   8. LFLex Fridman15:47

      ... by peop- yeah, well, he-

   9. GSGeorges St-Pierre15:48

      (laughs)

   10. LFLex Fridman15:49

       There's, uh, I'll tell you where 'cause I was doing it before he was doing it. Uh, is... there's... it was, uh, popular in the endurance athlete community, where it was fat-adapted athletes. It was people who... insane people who run 50 miles, 100 miles. They figured out that they could fuel their body by... with fat. They can go to fat as, as the source of energy as opposed to carbs. So, m- I remember hoping that I-

   11. GSGeorges St-Pierre16:17

       (laughs)

   12. LFLex Fridman16:17

       ... I'll be able to learn how to run 50 miles and so on. I've never done more than 22. But it... I, I, I just remember switching away from carbs and feeling really liberated. Like, I wasn't thinking about food as much. I'm able to eat once a day and feel really good. I mean, it... I think every- everybody's body is different, but I think carbs make me lazy.

   13. GSGeorges St-Pierre16:43

       (laughs)

   14. LFLex Fridman16:44

       Maybe it's because, uh, there's-

   15. GSGeorges St-Pierre16:46

       The crash?

   16. LFLex Fridman16:46

       Yeah. It's the crash, but also just, uh, psychologically, something, um... uh, it's, uh, it forces me to also think about food too much. Like, it starts becoming... you know, our... uh, just like you said, our society is so much about food. There's so many a- so much advertisement, and so much of our social life is about food. And so, it's very easy to live life, like, live day-to-day thinking, "When is the next meal?" Like, "What am I gonna eat for lunch? What am I gonna eat for dinner? What am I gonna eat for breakfast?" And, uh, if you're not careful, that's gonna get in the way of you doing cool shit-

   17. GSGeorges St-Pierre17:19

       (laughs)

   18. LFLex Fridman17:20

       ... for, like, l- liberating yourself and thinking like, "What am I actually passionate about in this life?" Like, creating and forgetting to eat, that, those kinds of things, and still being able to fuel your body. I don't know. It's been fascinating to f- to figure out, like, later in life that carbs aren't necessary to function well.

   19. GSGeorges St-Pierre17:41

       (laughs)

   20. LFLex Fridman17:41

       It's... it makes me think like we don't know anything about nutrition. (laughs)

   21. GSGeorges St-Pierre17:44

       That's right. The... you, you know, um, personally, I don't think I could have a diet without carbs. I love chocolate too much. I- it's-

   22. LFLex Fridman17:54

       Yeah.

   23. GSGeorges St-Pierre17:54

       ... for me, eating, it's a, it's a pleasure of life. I love my carbs. I love my sugar.

   24. LFLex Fridman17:59

       (laughs)

   25. GSGeorges St-Pierre17:59

       However, if you talk about diet, I don't have a specific diet. But recently, I... what I'm trying to do is, the days that I do not work out, I only eat once....that's kind of my rules. Plus, I try to respect 16:8 and do my three-day fast, uh, uh, uh, uh, four time a years, and... But the rest of the thing, I, I, I, I, I, I let myself loose because I, I, I don't think I would be happy if I, if I, uh, if I, if I don't give myself the, the, the, the right to, to eat. For me personally, I love to eat so much, Lex.

   26. LFLex Fridman18:38

       (laughs)

   27. GSGeorges St-Pierre18:38

       And, um, you talk about a diet, carnivore diet. It's very interesting because I, I, um... A few years ago, I went to, uh, Africa in, uh, Maasai Mara, and, uh, it's a tribe in, uh, in, in, uh, East Africa. And, um, I went to visit them. I did a safari. And I talked to them, and these guys, they... Their diet is 99% carnivore. They, they... That's crazy. And you should see, they're very beautiful people.

   28. LFLex Fridman19:09

       (laughs)

   29. GSGeorges St-Pierre19:09

       Like shredded, like, like-

   30. LFLex Fridman19:10

       Yeah, yeah.
6. 21:50 – 29:22

   Fear

   1. LFLex Fridman21:50

      If we could take a step back to the discussion about fear a little bit. So Mike Tyson talks about this process of him walking to the ring. He sounds similar to you in many ways of the anxiety and the fear that he experiences. And, uh, he, he has this, uh, sort of story that he tells about walking to the ring and being supremely afraid. But as he walks and gets closer and steps in, he finds the confidence and becomes supremely confident. I think he calls himself like a god, "I feel like a god in the ring." Uh, is, is... Do you go through a similar process of finding the confidence?

   2. GSGeorges St-Pierre22:29

      Well, it... Yes, and, um, I us- I use a James Lange theory. They, they, they, they... So what I do is... Because I'm, I'm, I'm not afraid to admit that I'm afraid. And, uh, in the beginning of my, of my career, I really thought... I asked myself because I was very good in mixed martial art, but I, I, I really thought I wasn't made for this because the idea of fighting didn't... Was, was... Didn't make me happy. It's something like I wa- I was, I was forced to do in order to keep that lifestyle that I have and achieve my goal, perhaps one day to make enough money to retire. And, you know, that, that was my dream. But when I was looking around the gym where I was training, most of my training partner, they were happy, they were excited. And sometime I corner, I corner a lot of guys and they're happy and they are in the locker room, they don't react the same way I do. Some perhaps does. But if you see me in the locker room (laughs) n- like when I get... Like, my last fight with Michael Bisping, just to give you an example. In my last fight with Michael Bisping, because it's fresh, it's the one that is the most recent, and, but it's always the same thing. My last fight, and my- Bisping, I get in the locker room, and, like, three guys that I train with, Micky Gall, Eman Zahabi, and, uh, Jose- Joseph Duffy, they all lost. It was like a, like... My, my locker room was basically cursed. The mo- you know, the... When you're in a locker room and people from your locker room leave for a fight and then they come back, it's kind of a momentum, you know. You, you, you shake hands, "Yeah, good job. Now it's my..." You know, it's kind of a team brotherhood sort of thing.So the (laughs) the, the, the atmosphere in my locker room was pretty bad. It was like, uh, going to a, you know, like, a funeral (laughs) . So I was very scared and every, before every fight I- I- I asked myself, uh, I asked myself always, "Shit, what the hell I'm doing here? Why did I choose to come back? Oh my God," and- and- and I'm freaking out. However, I'm putting on a mask. Like c- I'm acting because if I don't do that, it will reflect on my coaches and if my coach- my- my- the confidence of my coaches is affected, it will reflect- reflect on me. So I need to feel strong. I need to make them believe that I'm excited to be there and I'm happy to be there. So this sort of play start when I get... When I first step in the locker room. Even though I feel completely different, but that's how I play it. Normally the day- the fight day, I never felt- feel 100%. I always feel exhausted, tired, uh, my eyes are h- hitching because I don't sleep enough the few nights before because I'm constantly rehearse- rehearsing scenarios that might happen in a fight. So mentally, it's not that... I'm not on top.

   3. LFLex Fridman25:42

      But you keep all that to yourself?

   4. GSGeorges St-Pierre25:44

      I keep it to myself and I'm lying to everybody around me.

   5. LFLex Fridman25:47

      (laughs)

   6. GSGeorges St-Pierre25:48

      But everybody knows, you know?

   7. LFLex Fridman25:50

      (laughs)

   8. GSGeorges St-Pierre25:51

      F- fair- fair as ............................ They- they know. Freddy Rose be- they've been with me for a long time, so they know what's going on but at least I'm lying to them. I'm like, "Hey, I'm feeling great," so and seeing all my training partner, like, very disappointed because they lost our fight. Some were- were badly hurt as well. It was hard. So... And I remember I get- I get war- I get... I start the warm up and everything and as you start the warm up, you become a different person.

   9. LFLex Fridman26:18

      Mm-hmm.

   10. GSGeorges St-Pierre26:19

       Because, you know, s- c- we know that certain posture in yoga can af- affect your men- your mental state. But it's- I would say it's a little bit the same thing in- in fighting, you know. Like when you start hitting the pads, y- your- your muscle memory, your instincts comes back and- and you- you remember that you're good at this, you know, and- and your confidence start to grow. And as seeing your trainers holding the pad and then repeating your moves, it makes you also remember all the sacrifice you have done through your- your training camp and confidence come from how you prepared yourself. And even you're afraid, you can be confident- confident in the same time. Being afraid and being confident is two different things. And before every fight, just right before I walk in, it's... When I'm scared, I go in- in the bathroom and I look at myself in the mirror. I used to have a bandana and- and a gi.

   11. LFLex Fridman27:14

       (laughs)

   12. GSGeorges St-Pierre27:14

       But now I- it no more... I don't have this- this for my last fight because of the- the- the new Reebok deal they had. But I did the same rehearsal that I always do. I look at myself in the mirror and I start to compliment myself. Like even if I don't believe it, I'm starting to trying to believe it as I am. I'm- I'm finding all the reason why I'm going to win the fight and- and all my trainer knows that before every fight when- when the guy from the UFC goes, step in my room, says, "Hey Pierre, you're up next," I always take a few minutes to do that- that same rehearsal. And I tell myself, "I'm going to win this fight because I'm better," and- and- and I'm very cocky about myself. I'm telling all the reasons that oh, I'm gonna- gonna win. I'm- I got a better team, I made more sacrifice, you know, I'm- I'm faster, I'm more powerful, way more athletic, my fighting IQ is better than him, I got a strategy on point that he's never going to be able to keep up with and- and this and that. And I'm... And be- I was telling myself say, "I'm going to show these young kids how things should be done," you know.

   13. LFLex Fridman28:15

       (laughs)

   14. GSGeorges St-Pierre28:15

       Try to boost myself.

   15. LFLex Fridman28:16

       Yeah, yeah.

   16. GSGeorges St-Pierre28:16

       Yeah. Try to- to boost yourself and you start to believe in it. You become a different person. So when you walk out the bathroom, now rock and roll.

   17. LFLex Fridman28:25

       (laughs)

   18. GSGeorges St-Pierre28:26

       Now I really believe it for real, you know. Like I'm still scared, but I believe it for real and that's the transformation that happened for me right there. And from that... From now... From- from there to the fight it's... Until the fight is over, it's called... I call it cruise control because I- you don't have time to think in a fight. If you're trying to think, you're missing the opportunity. So that's how I see it for- for myself.

   19. LFLex Fridman28:49

       So at that point, you stop thinking and you just go cruise control, autopilot?

   20. GSGeorges St-Pierre28:53

       Trust yourself, you know. Trust yourself because you- you repeated all the scenarios, you know. So everything that you have done it's- it's inside the- the... Your compute- your computer, your brain is programmed to react accordingly to certain situations. And the... It's not the ni- the night of the fight that you'll- you'll- you'll tell yourse- oh, finally I'm gonna do this, if you do this. No, no. If you have not practiced it before, you're screwed. It- it... The preparation, the repetition that makes it happen, you

7. 29:22 – 32:32

   Strategy

   1. GSGeorges St-Pierre29:22

      know.

   2. LFLex Fridman29:22

      What about like the really difficult moments in a fight where you are tested to your limits essentially? Usually it's cardio related exhaustion, right, where you have to ask yourself that same question is like, "Why the hell am I doing this?" (laughs)

   3. GSGeorges St-Pierre29:38

      Yes.

   4. LFLex Fridman29:39

      Uh, do you- do you- do you experience those or are you able to ride through with the autopilot and if you do, like what do you do in those moments?

   5. GSGeorges St-Pierre29:46

      Never in a fight. When I'm in a fight when it's... The- the... When the fight is- is on, I never change my mind. I go until the end. However, for example, my first fight would be .......................... I- I had a terrible first round, so I had to switch gear. That happen sometime but it's part of my plan. I always have a plan B, plan s- plan A, plan B, plan C. You need to have that. If fighters goes into a fight thinking, "Oh what am... I'm going to do this, this, this," and they don't have a plan B if this doesn't work-...that's mean they're not well-prepared. If you talk to me before every fight, I can, like, in 30 seconds, give you my old strategy, you know? For, for BJ Penn, my first fight with BJ Penn was, "Oh, I'm gonna keep it standing up, e- eh, e- keep the fight from the outside, you know, because I'm faster than him." Then the fight with BJ Penn start. I found out that I was not faster than him, and I found out that his reaction time was better than, than, than, than mine. So I got beat up the first round, and like, I had a bloody nose and everything. So my plan B was now I'm gonna wrestle him. You know, I'm gonna wrestle him and, and, you know, make, make him tired and try to put him down. And that's how I beat him, 'cause I switched gear, you know? But if you can't do that, if, if you cannot find a way to become the perfect nemesis to your opponent, you, you, you might win a few fight, but you... You're gonna find, uh, uh, you're gonna fight someone sooner or later that will, that will give you a lot of, uh, uh, a lot of trouble.

   6. LFLex Fridman31:23

      So that's where the anxiety pays off. You're anticipating all the ways it goes wrong, so you develop the plan B and plan C. Uh, you know, we talked a lot with, uh, like Jon Danaher, who you work with. It's interesting. I don't think I've heard him talk about plan B and plan C. He usually has a really clear plan A, an entire system of plan A. I don't think I've heard him... We've had, uh, we had a, a, uh, a good discussion about it in, um, uh, over some cheeseburgers.

   7. GSGeorges St-Pierre31:55

      (laughs)

   8. LFLex Fridman31:55

      And he's, uh, he was kind of espousing the value of mastering escapes. So when you f- find yourself in bad situations, being exceptionally good at finding ways out of those bad situations. And that's a way of dominance. There's nothing... There's no better way to dominate your opponent, according to him, than to show that they can't possibly hurt you, no matter how bad the position is. Uh, it's like... It's a, as opposed to a physical dominance, it's a psychological dominance. It's very interesting. But I wonder if he has plan B and plan C in his mind too.

8. 32:32 – 36:14

   Mind games

   1. LFLex Fridman32:32

   2. GSGeorges St-Pierre32:32

      You know, in, in, uh, mixed martial arts, sometimes it's like in science. Sometimes you can make a mis- like, uh, a mistake, you know? Like, every human can make a mistakes, you know? There's certain sport or certain situation that you... If there's a mistake made, you're, you're, you're... That's it, exactly. Sometimes it's the case in MMA. But sometimes you're able to redeem yourself. A- and, uh, if you look the fight with BJ Penn one that I had, which was probably one of the most competitive fight I... And it was probably the... It was the fight that I got the most damage, and I was messed up. It took me three days, like, two, three days to recuperate from that fight. I was really damaged. And my first fight versus my second fight, I made a lot of adjustment because I, I've learned from my first fight. And also, I had a guy... One thing people don't know. Like, they talk about fighters having secret weapons. See, for me, my secret weapons was not... Like, some is, they use, like, certain... like, different things. For me, it was knowledge. I had a guy in Montreal, he was measuring frames. He's not a scientist. He's a, he's a friend of, of, uh, Feras and I. And what he does, he, he watch fight, and he measure frames. The way he does it is when he watch a fight and one of the guy throw a punch, he, he, he cut the picture by frame, the, the video by frame. Clap, clap, clap, clap. So he's able to see which fighter has better reaction time than others. And BJ Penn, he found out that BJ Penn, of all the UFC roster at the time, when he was in his prime, he had probably the best reaction time of all. According to him, Lyoto Machida was the second one. But BJ Penn was the first one. So I knew that if I would try to go first... Because I always been the fastest guy normally when I fight someone. But when I fought BJ Penn, I tried to go first, and he was always able to, "Qwip," like... I never... was never able to, to touch him with my jab, and he came back with a counterpunch. However, because of what he told me, I knew that BJ Penn has a very fast reaction time but had a very poor reset time. To him, the way he described it to me is like, "Your nervous system is like a muscle." BJ Penn was so fast. He's like more like a sprinter. So what I did the second fight, I, when I fought BJ Penn, I made him flinch. Like, I fake a lot, so I make him react and flinch. So all that, that reaction time that he used to flinch was not used properly to avoid my punches. So he... I burn... I, I load up his, his nervous system with a lot of information and f- and fake and... to make him flinch and pretending I was kicking and wrestling. So he got overwhelmed, and he got tired very, very fast. So that's how I beat him. People sometimes they don't know really what's the strategy behind the thing. They only see the physical part. But when you fight someone, if I fight you, I look at you in the eyes, there's a lot of things that going on between you and I. I can look down here, bam, jab you in the face. The, the audience will not see this little detail, but you will see it. And that's what makes the magic during a fight. The relation that you have with the opponent, you know, like, like, the mental game, what you, you make him believe. Those little thing I use a lot of those. If you talk to a lot of my opponent, they'll tell you like, I use a lot of these little thing, you know. Like, I look down and ba- I go, I go up, or I am pretending I'm, I want to attack you so I'm, I'm make you flinch. But in reality I'm just doing this because I want to rest, I want to recuperate and I'm tired.

9. 36:14 – 41:21

   Mental games

   1. GSGeorges St-Pierre36:15

   2. LFLex Fridman36:15

      How much is... You know, people talk about that with poker, for example. How much is the value of this, you know? So, like, some people argue that poker is more about the betting.... you know, it's just the money, it's just how much you bet and so on. So that would be more like a, the analogy there with, with fighting would be just strictly the physical movement of your body. And then a lot of people argue that there's a lot here, in the way you look, in the little movements in the face. So do you, you think there's... Do you think you're communicating with your opponent when you look at them?

   3. GSGeorges St-Pierre36:48

      There's no way to know for sure 100%, and, um, by no, no mean psychic, nothing like that, and I don't believe in that at all. Uh, the only thing is I know true, looking through the eyes of my opponent when he's afraid and when he gives up on me.

   4. LFLex Fridman37:03

      Yeah.

   5. GSGeorges St-Pierre37:03

      I've been accused very often in my career to not take enough risk, to not finish my opponent. But the reason why I didn't finish my opponent is because I saw in his eyes that he gave up. He gave me the fight and I'm winning the fight. So it's not up to me, it's not to me to make a... To try to sacrifice myself trying to finish him. Perhaps if I do that, I will open up from, for him to, to, to, uh, to capitalize on my mistake. It's up to him to make a risk. So people sometime they, they don't understand that. It's the art of fighting, my friend, you know. Like, if I'm winning the fight, like in hockey, in ice hockey, if you're winning the game and it's the third period, it, it, it's at the end of the third period, you're not gonna take out your goaltender trying to score another goal, because winning, uh, f- uh, five to three or five to four is the same thing. Same thing in MMA. We make a living out of this. And sometime it's b- (laughs) you know, as sad as, as bad as it can be, you wanna save yourself for another day, you know. You wanna minimize the damage. But if he knows he's losing the fight, it's up to y- him to take the risk. It's not up to me. So I'm ever... I'm a good counter fighter. I use a lot of my attack or, or counter-strike or, or reactive takedown or proactive takedown. That's my specialty. So I'm not gonna... I, I, I have no desire to sacrifice myself trying to, to, to try to finish my opponent if he want to... If, if, if perhaps I might give him the opportunity to capitalize on me. It's, it's not, it's not smart to do that. A- and very often when I fight someone, I can read him. I see the fear in his eyes. Now I'm like, "I got you now." He's very desperate. It does, doesn't mean I have to g- put my guard down, because he's gonna, he's gonna be desperate. But I know I'm beating him. And I know I'm beating him, I'm just gonna do what I need. You know, if I have a chance, of course, I'll knock him out, but I'm not gonna try to sacrifice myself to knock him out. And if you do that, maybe one day you'll make a mistake and you'll get dropped and your- you'll, you'll tell yourself, "I shoot, I just got brain damage. Maybe I never gonna come back the same. Maybe, you know, I, I, I ruin my career," or, you know. It's a, it's a very serious game that we're playing. It's very dangerous.

   6. LFLex Fridman39:23

      In the face of that risk, I mean, uh, Mike Tyson talked about, you know, when, uh, the opponent looks away, he knows he's got him, right? The- that, uh, that he's broken. For a person like me (laughs) who has trouble making eye contact with people-

   7. GSGeorges St-Pierre39:42

      (laughs) .

   8. LFLex Fridman39:43

      ... there's, there's truth to that. I mean, there, there's truth to that. That there's a, there's an animal nature to us looking away. I mean, you could see that the way the body language, the way the eyes move between two animals going at it, uh, in, in the wild when like two lions fight or two whatever fight. There's a certain beta move when you've d- you've been defeated.

   9. GSGeorges St-Pierre40:06

      Yes. O- or one thing when I know that, that when it happen, one of the sign is when I just, like, make a feint and the guy flinch like crazy, that's mean he's really scared of me. It's a little bit like you're, you're, you're, you're doing this, that guy flinch a little bit. Or you're doing this, he's flin- like, oh, he... That, that's mean you hurt him and he doesn't want to get hurt again. So he's, he's, he's really trying to run away and not l- not winning the fight anymore, but not l- losing. So sort of surviving the, the, the five round. And it's hard to, to finish a guy who does- doesn't wanna fight. A guy who's not fighting anymore to win and he's fighting to not lose. And the proof of that, if you don't believe me, just look the reign of all the greatest champion in UFC. Uh, I don't care who they are, Jon Jones or, or, or, uh, like, you could clearly see that in the beginning of their ring, they could, you know, finish a lot of their opponent. The same, same as me. In the beginning, I was finishing a lot of my opponent. But there's a time that the entire UFC roster is studying you, and they found ways to, perhaps not beating you, but they find a way to navigate through the, the, the fight in a way that they minimize the damage. You know what I mean? So it's a big difference between fighting to win and fighting to not lose.

10. 41:21 – 1:05:00

    Science of fighting

    1. GSGeorges St-Pierre41:21

    2. LFLex Fridman41:22

       You said that there's a difference between a fighter and a martial artist. So now we were talking about fighting. You're considered by many to be one of the greatest fighters of all time. But you've said that there's a difference between a fighter and a martial artist. "A fighter is training for a purpose. He has a fight." I'm, I'm, "a martial artist. I don't train for a fight. I train for myself. I'm training all the time. My goal is perfection. But I will never reach perfection." So what to you does it mean to be a martial artist?

    3. GSGeorges St-Pierre41:57

       Martial artist is because that lifestyle that I have has been introduced to me. And the seed has been planted to my mind a long, long time ago by, by my father. I, um, I do not train because I have a fight. I will always train. Even now, it, it kind of amuse me that, to see that a lot of people... Because I'm still training because I love the science of fighting. I do not like to fight, but I love the science of it, and I will always do it as long as I can do it.... people think I'm gonna make a comeback and everything. I'm, I'm about to get to have 40 years old, you know? Like, it's... (laughs) I'm, you know, like...

    4. LFLex Fridman42:41

       (laughs) Well, Mike Tyson-

    5. GSGeorges St-Pierre42:42

       I don't wanna fight in a cage at 40 years old. I mean, it... Some people have done it and they did it very well, but I- I'm not one of them. I'm, I feel a little bit to me that... And you never say never. I feel like, to me, like, it's a little like a kid that you play with a string when he's young, like (trilling) then he's five years old (trilling) , six years old (trilling) , seven years old (trilling) , eight years old. And then, at one moment, he's like, "What the hell I'm doing here?"

    6. LFLex Fridman43:06

       (laughs)

    7. GSGeorges St-Pierre43:07

       And, "I'm too old for this." Like, like it's, uh, I- I- I've done it, you know? And, and, and, and I got out of it-

    8. LFLex Fridman43:14

       Yeah.

    9. GSGeorges St-Pierre43:15

       ... on top and, and I'm, I'm healthy, which is the most important thing right now, I'm touching wood, and I'm, I'm wealthy. I beat the game, you know what I mean? In a way. Like, I- I... That's not to be cocky, but I did it and, and I wish more, more fighters could do the same thing. I wish. But, um, it's unfortunate because a lot of them, they stay there and hang out f- for too long and, and they get badly hurt. They get, uh, beaten and, and, and broken, you know? And they finish broke as well because the lifestyle you have when you're a pro athlete, it's crazy, you know? It's, it's, it's unbelievable. However, everything that goes up in life goes down and you need to plan your future, you know? So, for, for me, what if some guys have the same mentality as me and they're watching us right now, I would say if you do it because you're just good at it, you like the money, the, the advantage, the freedom that it gives you, but you don't necessarily like to fight, when you're done, you finish on top, you know, go ca- go cash out and get outta here.

    10. LFLex Fridman44:19

        Walk away.

    11. GSGeorges St-Pierre44:20

        Yes.

    12. LFLex Fridman44:20

        That's really hard to do.

    13. GSGeorges St-Pierre44:22

        However, Alex, it's not everybody that does it for that reason. Some people genuinely li- love to fight, love to compete. So, they do it because they love it, you know? Or they do it because of the money. But if you don't love it, if you don't like to fight because it's t- very stressful and you don't enjoy... You lo- you enjoy the training perhaps, but you don't like to fight. You do it because it's part of what you need to do in order to keep that lifestyle.

    14. LFLex Fridman44:43

        Yeah.

    15. GSGeorges St-Pierre44:44

        And, you know, like, you don't need the money, say, get out of here, man. If y- if you're in your, you're in your prime, get out of here. Because if you don't, you, you'll, you'll hurt your own legacy, your, you'll damage your, your health. It's, it's very sad. And, and it's a, it's a, it's a sad business, you know what I mean? Uh, uh, it's like a lot of, uh... One, one of the place where is d- the mo- the mo-... One of the most happiest place for me to go and the most, the saddest place for me to go, it's in the gym. It's uh, Tristar Montreal. Because it's one of the happiest place for me to go, because I can go train and do what I love to do. But it's also a very sad place for me, because after, when I'm about to leave, there's always a bunch of young kid that comes or, or guys that are around 30, 33 years old and they come to me and say, "Hey George, you have some advice for me?" And I look at them, and if they're my friend, they're a real close friend of mine, I'll tell them the truth in their face. And I've done it many time, and it was not well-received. But if they're not my friend, I have to, you know... You know, they... It's always an advice about fighting and I answer the, their, their question, it's my pleasure. But the truth, if they, uh, if they want me to tell the truth, s- uh, the big majority of them, I would tell them, I say, "Listen, man, you're in a maybe a three... Like, in a, on a losing streak of three fight. You're 30, 33 years old, you know? I think you should think about doing something else in your life, you know? Have other goals, you know? Because you're not gonna make it."

    16. LFLex Fridman46:21

        (laughs)

    17. GSGeorges St-Pierre46:21

        And, you know, I've seen that movie before and it's a very sad ending. And I'm, I'm sad to tell you the truth, because you're not gonna make the money. Just choose some... But if I tell them that, they're gonna be angry at me, because then it'd be like, "Oh, you, you make it and you think I cannot make it." So it's kind of... They're gonna think I'm cocky. But I was lucky to make it. You know what? The s- the stars were all aligned, but at one point you need to be able to, to have a, a plan B, you know? Like, like, if some parent, they come to see me with their kids. "Hey, this is the future world champion in the, in the UFC, and what advice would you give him?" I always tell the same thing. And it does not make everybody happy when I said. I say... I go to the kid, say, "Are you good at school?" Say, "Stay at school. School is very important for you. Stay educated." "Yeah." "Do boxing, martial arts. It's a great sport. Stay in shape. But don't put your eggs all in the same basket." And the parents sometime are angry when I... Not angry, but I can see in their eyes they're like... They, they kind of surprised. And it's not because I made it that I will tell their kid to follow the same path that I did. I went through school too. I, I, I, I study. I, I drop of school when I had my first world championship fight against Matt Hughes. But before that, I was school. So I had another, you know what, uh, uh, a- a- a- another way to go if it, things would not have gone the same, the, the way I wanted. But the problem and, and I'm saying that it's not only about boxing and MMA. I'm talking about hockey, basketball, baseball. Same, same thing. Maybe is one on a hundred thousand that make it. And I'm saying, I'm saying that make it. When I'm saying make it, that's mean that can retire and have enough money for the rest of his life. Because it's a sad story. They only... People only heard about the people that makes it. But a lot of fighter, even a UFC champion, in boxing champion, even football, basketball, I don't, I don't, I don't care. The big names, when they retire, they have zero. They are bankrupt, my friend. And it's a very sad, s- sad story and a sad reality that most people are not aware of.

    18. LFLex Fridman48:29

        But having other paths in life actually can also-... increase the chance of you, uh, dominating and like reaching the highest peak, uh, in your main thing. I mean, Jimmy Pedro, I don't know if you know who that is, is a judo coach in, uh, in, in America. He was, uh, he says that to all of his athletes just to make sure that you go... He has a lot of, you know, Kayla Harrison, two-time Olympic gold medalist. He has a lot of, uh, Olympic medalists. But basically, there's something about going to school, like having an, uh... forget school, any other avenue in life that gives you the freedom to go all out in your main, like that you, you know you're doing it for the right reasons. You're not stuck. It clears the mind to where you're free to be the best in the world-

    19. GSGeorges St-Pierre49:15

        Yes.

    20. LFLex Fridman49:15

        ... as opposed to kind of you have to. I mean, uh, different people are motivated by different things. So sometimes some people like, uh, having their back to the wall, and that's the only option they have. But most people, I think, excel when you have other options.

    21. GSGeorges St-Pierre49:30

        I think it's a distraction, and I think it's important to have a distraction. Uh, when you say that, I think about one of my coach, John Danaher. He put his academic background experience into jujitsu. And that, for me, that's why he's the best teacher I ever had. He's incredible. He start teaching me when I even couldn't speak much English at that time, and I was able to communicate and understand, you know? That's how good he is. But I, I truly believe that most of athlete, especially in, in sport like mixed martial art, train way too much. If I could go back and talk to a young George, I would tell him, say, "You do way too much volume. You train way too hard. Train smarter. It's more important." And I think sometime we underestimate the benefit of, uh, recuperation, because you... I think you, we assimilate the information that we learn during a training when we recuperate, and not during the training itself. And this whole mentality of, uh, harder, heavier, you know, like, like, like, it's, it's good for someone who's lazy. But if you're an elite athlete, most of the time, you know, like you're... Not always, but most of the time, it's because you're not lazy. And a lot of guys sometime they're elite athlete, champions, and you hear people say, "Oh, I can't believe he's very gifted, but he doesn't work." But perhaps it's not really because... Perhaps it's because we don't understand. Perhaps he's doing the right thing, and it's us who's working too much and too hard. That's what I think. There's a guy I train with, he's a... He made me think about, about it. H- His name is Ma- Mansour Bernawi. He's going to be a futur- future star. He's, he's, he's an incredible fighter. He train once a day. And he asked me sometime advice when he came to Montreal. He's from France. You'll hear about him. He's, he's, he's very good. And I, I saw him in the morning at TriStar, and I said, "Okay, I'll see you perhaps later in the other training." He said, "No, I only train once a day." And he kind of wait for me to give him like, like, like, not, not an approval, but like to see how I react, or, or, you know, I don't know wh- wh- it was kind of a strange feeling, but I, I told myself, at that point I kind of, I had an, an awakening. And I, and I told myself, "Man, maybe he's doing the right thing." (laughs) Because a lot, a lot of people would say, for example, "Oh, that's a lazy way of doing it." But perhaps it's the best way to do it. I'm not saying that, uh, training once a day is the, the best way to do it. That's not what I'm saying. I'm saying that everybody's different. But for him, it works beautifully. And I wouldn't change anything, you know, like if I would be him, because he, he's, he's improving like crazy.

    22. LFLex Fridman52:34

        Yeah. And ultimately, the bigger picture there is to do something that everyone else is, uh, says is stupid. It's like the fasting thing that, that a lot of people would say, a lot of nutritional experts would say that that's, that's a dumb way. You know, if you want to be an MMA fighter, you should be eating w- like many times a day. You should be starting every day with oatmeal. You should be carbing up constantly.

    23. GSGeorges St-Pierre52:57

        (laughs)

    24. LFLex Fridman52:57

        But that's not necessarily true for everybody. And it's possible, I'm sure there's actually now a few MMA fighters that are carnivore only. It's possible.

    25. GSGeorges St-Pierre53:05

        I, I, I used to eat right before training, and I, it didn't bother me. However now, I, my first training that I do normally in average a- around noon, 11:00 AM, I'm, uh, I'm, I'm, I haven't eat anything when I do my first training. And it feels to me that I'm much, I'm, uh, it much more clear, I'm much more clearer in my mind.

    26. LFLex Fridman53:32

        Yeah.

    27. GSGeorges St-Pierre53:32

        I'm much more creative. Uh, I feel better.

    28. LFLex Fridman53:35

        Yeah.

    29. GSGeorges St-Pierre53:35

        Yeah, uh, it's a big difference. I just wish I would have known that before, you know?

    30. LFLex Fridman53:39

        Well, it's fascinating, the role of the mind in all of this, how important is it for your mind to be clear, to, to really think deeply. I, uh, there's a, there's a judoka American named Travis Stevens. I remember he said something that, uh, the right kind of practice is when your mind is exhausted at the end of it, that you were constantly thinking through things. Uh, like your body shouldn't be exhausted first. Your mind should be exhausted first. That's really fascinating. So people think about training hard. You know, a successful practice is where you walk away just overwhelmed how much you've had to think. It's fascinating framing of, um, of a successful practice.
11. 1:05:00 – 1:08:42

    GOAT

    1. GSGeorges St-Pierre1:05:00

       when I talk a- when I think about Khabib Nurmagomedov, I see all the detail that, that, of his work, especially when he got, he's got his opponent against the fence. That's like, that's his area of expertise where he's, to me, he's the best that ever did it in, in terms of that fighting style, that, that particular expertise that he has is just incredible.

    2. LFLex Fridman1:05:22

       The, the, the flawless execution of that particular-

    3. GSGeorges St-Pierre1:05:24

       Yes.

    4. LFLex Fridman1:05:24

       ... set of techniques is just-

    5. GSGeorges St-Pierre1:05:26

       Yeah. A- a- and, a- a- and Conor McGregor had the, the accuracy. The Spider, Anderson Silva, was like, was I would say the most flamboyant of all, you know. Like, he was moving like The Matrix. Jon Jones was incredible in terms of creativity, spinning elbows and that, and he'd face incredible adversity. Demetrious Johnson was so complete. You could, you could bring... Like, he was slamming a guy into an armbar. It was just unbelievable. Like, like, he was like the complete fighter. BJ Penn was, like, so flexible. He, he, he did stuff with his body that, like, nobody could do. His dex- the dexterity of his hips was just unbelievable. Um, Dominick Cruz to me was incredible, his footwork, his distance control. So when you talk about like the GOAT, Royce Gracie another one, he did things that I think for me is now number one because-

    6. LFLex Fridman1:06:22

       Yeah, I got to, I got to... And sorry to interrupt, but Royce is a fascinating one. I'd, I'd love to hear what you think about him, but many people consider you, most people consider you to be the number one greatest mixed martial arts fighter ever.So, it's fascinating to remove you from that list-

    7. GSGeorges St-Pierre1:06:41

       Yeah.

    8. LFLex Fridman1:06:41

       ... and continue this discussion and asking like, "Who do you think is the greatest fighter ever?" You listed some amazing ones, Royce. You somehow skipped Fedor. I just, I'm very, as a Russian, I'm very offended.

    9. GSGeorges St-Pierre1:06:53

       No, I was f- I was going to... There's so many. Fedor is one as well. Fedor, I think, in his prime was like... When you say, when you talk about a, a name, for example, like, we talk about him when he was in his prime. Like, w- when I talk, for example, about Anderson Silva, I'm not talking about the Anderson Silva who fought, who fought, uh, his last fight, uh, against Uriah Hall. I'm talking about Anderson Silva who knocked out Victor Belfort. Yes! BJ Penn, same thing. The problem is when fighters hang on for too long in this sport. That's what happen. They, they kind of make, make people forget how good they were. And it's very sad. We talk about Fedor, and just, just think about, uh, Stipe Miocic. Miocic is probably the, the greatest, uh, heavyweight of all time. With Fedor, I w- I would really wonder who would have won this fight, th- the both guys in their prime. I a- tend to lean towards Fedor because my heart was with Fedo- Fedor, but he could have gone the other way. But just because Miocic lose his last fight, now everybody is like, "Oh, yeah," they, they forgot about him. It's crazy, man. It's one fight. You zig when you should zag. Boom! It's... That's the reality of mixed martial art.

    10. LFLex Fridman1:08:06

        Well, that's why the thing is, the mixed martial arts isn't just the performance, the strictly who won and who lost. It's also the stories we tell ourselves. And so, I mean, there's beautiful stories being weaved, and that also is part of, uh, who is the greatest of all time, is what, what were the battles? What, what, what had to be overcome? What was the, the flavor of the flawless performances? You know, all of that pl- plays into it. And you're right. Being able to walk away at the top is also part of that.

    11. GSGeorges St-Pierre1:08:41

        The...

12. 1:08:42 – 1:18:23

    A fight vs Khabib

    1. GSGeorges St-Pierre1:08:42

       A lot of people ask me about Khabib, and that fight, I want it to happen. Khabib want it to happen, but UFC did not want to happen.

    2. LFLex Fridman1:08:53

       Between you and Khabib?

    3. GSGeorges St-Pierre1:08:54

       Yes, and we tried to make it, like, about th- three years ago when I, when I retired. Two, no, three, no, it was after two years ago and it didn't, never came to fruition. The UFC were clear. They said they, they, they have other plan for Khabib. And it makes sense to, for the business standpoint because they wanna keep the ball rolling. Now Khabib retired and like everybody else after Jus- Justin Gaethje, I was doing the commentator in French-

    4. LFLex Fridman1:09:22

       (laughs)

    5. GSGeorges St-Pierre1:09:22

       ... for the UFC. And I wa- I had butterfly. I thought he was going to call me out.

    6. LFLex Fridman1:09:25

       (laughs)

    7. GSGeorges St-Pierre1:09:26

       And if there's one guy that I would have said yes, it would be him because for a fighter the most exciting thing, things to do, it's often the scariest one. And Khabib was wor- you know, worth the r-

    8. LFLex Fridman1:09:38

       He's the scariest matchup for you?

    9. GSGeorges St-Pierre1:09:40

       Yes, he, he... He was worth the risk because nobody have ever been able to solve them.

    10. LFLex Fridman1:09:47

        How would you solve the Khabib Nurmagomedov puzzle?

    11. GSGeorges St-Pierre1:09:50

        Well-

    12. LFLex Fridman1:09:51

        (laughs)

    13. GSGeorges St-Pierre1:09:51

        ... Khabib is very good against the fence. Uh, I would have to establish a, a game plan and everything but I, I think, uh, what I would needed to do is take the center of the octagon right away. Use a lot of fake and feint. Keep the fight all the way, all the way out or all the way in. And when I say all the way in is when you close the gap, use my proactive and reactive takedown and my, perhaps my superior explosivity to put him down. I like to use those proactive and pre- uh, and reactive takedown because for me I feel it's more economical. Khabib is a much better chained wrestler than me. Chained wrestler is when you get the guys to the fence, it's pure wrestling. What makes my takedown very efficient, it's my karate. It's not my wrestling.

    14. LFLex Fridman1:10:39

        Mm-hmm.

    15. GSGeorges St-Pierre1:10:39

        It's, I'm a, I'm very good at timing my opponent and getting in with, with my explosivity. So if you watch my takedown, it does not demand often... It does not demand a lot of work. When I use the... I call it proactive takedown when, um, he's coming to punch me and I react so it... Uh, I, I mean, proactive is, is wh- when I, I'm faking it so I, I, I, I, I instigate the takedown by a fake then I take, take him down.

    16. LFLex Fridman1:11:08

        Mm-hmm.

    17. GSGeorges St-Pierre1:11:08

        And reactive is when he's... I'm baiting him to throw something then he, then I'm, I'm going.

    18. LFLex Fridman1:11:12

        It's a counter, yeah, yeah.

    19. GSGeorges St-Pierre1:11:14

        Yes. But all my takedowns-

    20. LFLex Fridman1:11:15

        In the center of the octagon?

    21. GSGeorges St-Pierre1:11:17

        Yes. My takedowns are more in the center of the octagon. Like, for example, another guy that does it well is Gleason Tibau that did it well in his best days, you know. Khabib has more a t- a style of chain wrestling, I would say like Kamaru Usman so- so to speak, kind, kind of guy. It's a different style. You cannot compare both style. And that's the kind of takedown I'm good. And I would, if I would have fight Khabib, that's one of the strategy I would have adopt. I would not have been afraid because everybody that I fought I was able to put them down and, and, and I have the pedigree to, to prove it in my fight resume. So you, you would have perhaps see him on his-

    22. LFLex Fridman1:11:54

        Oh, that's fascinating.

    23. GSGeorges St-Pierre1:11:54

        ... back and I would have perhaps be on my back as well so it would have been a very interesting fight and, and-

    24. LFLex Fridman1:11:59

        How hard do you think he is to take down? I mean, a lot of people speak about his wrestling being just-

    25. GSGeorges St-Pierre1:12:04

        It has nothing to do with the takedown, the wrestling because-

    26. LFLex Fridman1:12:07

        It has to do with the karate.

    27. GSGeorges St-Pierre1:12:08

        If I got the timing and-

    28. LFLex Fridman1:12:09

        (laughs)

    29. GSGeorges St-Pierre1:12:09

        ... I g- and I got my both hand around, around his knees, he's going down no matter what.

    30. LFLex Fridman1:12:13

        Yeah, everybody goes down, yeah.
13. 1:18:23 – 1:22:10

    Free will

    1. GSGeorges St-Pierre1:18:23

       there's a cause to everything. That's per- personally what I believe. I don't believe that I, I have, like, free will. I think I have the illusion of free will, but I believe there's a cause for everything. And if I'm doing something because of something, because of a cause, by definition, there's no free will in a way, you know. If there's a cause, by definition-... there is not.

    2. LFLex Fridman1:18:43

       How does that make you feel, by the way? Like, the idea that if we just look, uh, outside even of just human psychology and fighting and so on, if we look at, like, physics, if everything is predetermined, if all of those, these little molecules interacting, it's all already, like, your story is already written.

    3. GSGeorges St-Pierre1:19:00

       I mean, it depend. It's, it's written, but I would need to know all the data and it's impossible, right? They, like, it's, it's, I, I, it's kind of weird, I got to say. But I don't, to me, I don't see any argument to counter that idea. I, I, I, I, I, like, and I don't, maybe I'm, I'm ignorant, but I haven't seen nobody and everything from, that I've read so far, there is nothing that counter that idea that, that, that... Because in the mechanical world, if your car broke or, you know, we don't say, "Oh, the car decided to broke." Or that a tree, uh, trees fall, there's a reason why the tree is falling. We don't say the trees decide to fall, right? So, uh, because us human being, I think it's our ego, we, we decide, and I'm no different than anybody, when I make a decision, I decided to do this, I choose to do this. But I'm aware that there is causes that make me do certain things. And by definition, I think if there is a cause, there is no free will, by definition, right?

    4. LFLex Fridman1:20:09

       Yes. But the thing is, just like you said, we understand so little about human intelligence, the human mind, and especially consciousness, that the, (laughs) this giant mystery, this darkness that we don't understand how, how it, how it feels like to be something, to be a conscious being, that because of that, we're not able to really even reason about free will or not. Because there might be some magic that comes from consciousness. The, you know, the, the consciousness might be the thing that makes us different from a car that breaks down.

    5. GSGeorges St-Pierre1:20:49

       Mm-hmm.

    6. LFLex Fridman1:20:49

       There might be something, uh, totally fascinating, totally undiscovered yet that will make us realize that free will is actually real and it's somehow fundamental to the human experience. So, it's, sometimes I think we forget when we talk about free will and physics and it all seeming to be predetermined, we forget how little we actually understand about the world.

    7. GSGeorges St-Pierre1:21:17

       Mm-hmm.

    8. LFLex Fridman1:21:18

       And I think in that mystery, there could be totally new ideas that are yet to be discovered and will make us realize that it's not just an illusion, it is something that is, like, at the core of how the universe works. Some people believe that consciousness is a fundamental property of the universe, like it's, it's one of the forces of physics. Like, consciousness permeates everything, it's in everything. Like, this table is conscious, but it's not as conscious as us, and we're this little peak of consciousness. And if that's true, and if we get to understand that, maybe there is something, there's an extra bonus we get in terms of free will once you become one of those entities that are super conscious. So, uh, I, I, I tend to be sort of humbled by the mystery of it.

Episode duration: 2:43:08