Lex Fridman PodcastGlenn Loury: Race, Racism, Identity Politics, and Cancel Culture | Lex Fridman Podcast #285
EVERY SPOKEN WORD
150 min read · 30,002 words- 0:00 – 1:10
Introduction
- GLGlenn Loury
I hate affirmative action. I don't just disagree with it, I don't just think it's against the 14th Amendment, I hate it. The hatred comes from an understanding that it is a band-aid, that it is a substitute for the actual development of the capacities of our people to compete. They wanna tell African Americans, uh, pat us on the head, "Uh, we're gonna have a separate program for you, we're gonna give you a side door that you can come in to." That doesn't make us any smarter, uh, i- it doesn't make us any more creative, um, and it doesn't make us any more fit for the actual competition that's unfolding before us.
- LFLex Fridman
The following is a conversation with Glenn Loury, Professor of Economics and Social Sciences at Brown University. He is one of the great minds and communicators of our time, writing and speaking about race and inequality. I highly encourage you to listen to his show on YouTube and Substack, simply called The Glenn Show. This is the Lex Fridman Podcast. To support it, please check out our sponsors in the description, and now, dear friends, here's Glenn Loury.
- 1:10 – 9:58
Martin Luther King Jr.
- LFLex Fridman
Martin Luther King, Jr.'s I Have a Dream speech I think is the greatest speech in American history. If I may, I'd like to read a few words of it.
- GLGlenn Loury
Sure.
- LFLex Fridman
And, uh, ask you a question about this dream. "I have a dream that one day this nation will rise up and live out the true meaning of its creed: 'We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal.' I have a dream that one day on the red hills of Georgia, the sons of former slaves and the sons of former slave owners will be able to sit down together at the table of brotherhood. I have a dream that one day even the state of Mississippi, a state sweltering with the heat of injustice, sweltering with the heat of oppression, will be transformed into an oasis of freedom and justice. I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character. I have a dream today."
- GLGlenn Loury
Mmm.
- LFLex Fridman
First of all, damn. I mentioned to you offline, I immigrated to, to America, and this is why I love this country. This is one of the great speeches that represents what this country is about.
- GLGlenn Loury
Yeah.
- LFLex Fridman
So, what is this idea of equality, uh, that we should strive for as a nation, this, that all men are created equal? What does that mean to you, this equality?
- GLGlenn Loury
Well, if we put this in historical context, King is speaking in 1963 when he gives that speech. It's exactly 100 years after Abraham Lincoln signs the Emancipation Proclamation declaring the enslaved people to be free. They're not yet citizens in 1863, but the end of slavery is, has become the position of the federal government when Lincoln issues that Emancipation Proclamation. So, putting it in context, enslaved people, 4 million or so African-descended enslaved people, how do they become citizens? How, how do they become, in this, uh, status of subjugation and domination and stigma and exclusion, how do they become citizens? Uh, it seems to me that that's the, that's the s- the heart of it. The, the equality that King is talking about is an equality of status as members of the nation, as free and equal citizens within the republic. Now, I think it's really important to understand that slavery was not merely a legal order, but it was also a social system that had the symbolism, uh, attached to it. They had a big journey to make from their subjugated status as serfs, as landless people, as uneducated, unfit for citizenship, really, in the minds of many. So, I think that's what, in 1963, 100 years later, that King is appealing to, this idea that when Thomas Jefferson, in the Declaration of Independence, writes these words, "All men are created equal and endowed by their creator with certain inalienable rights," he didn't, Thomas Jefferson, a slave owner, didn't have in mind when he wrote those words the people who were slaves. But by the time you get to 1963, King is invoking this idea, all men, and of course he means all persons, he doesn't only mean men, he means men and women are created equal. Um, h- he wants this idea to be embraced by the country in reference to the descendants of the African slaves. That's his dream. That's his idea. The legacy of slavery would be erased, uh, that, that the, uh, position of African Americans would be equalized within the political community which is the United States of America. Th- that's my sense of it in any case.
- LFLex Fridman
So, on a very basic level, th- the worth of a human being is equal. It's just literally the worth of a human being. So, I mentioned to you offline that I came from the Soviet Union.Uh, my grandfather fought in World War II. And for Hitler, the worth of a Slavic person, as they were captured, uh, there's different numbers, but it's in the hundreds to one German, in terms of the value of the person, um, to the great Germany. So, he wanted Germany to expand and conquer a large part of the world. And within that future world, that Third Reich, the worth of a Russian or a Slavic person is, uh, one hundredth or one thousandth of a German person, of a pure German person. So, that has to do with not some kind of public policy or politics or all that kind of stuff, it has to do with the basic worth of a human being. And that's what Dr. King is speaking to, that all people, on some kind of deep level, are worth the same. (laughs) If you're somehow weighing, uh, the value of a person, we're equal in that s- basic fundamental worth.
- GLGlenn Loury
Yeah. I, I think that's correct. I think that's very well said. I don't know that he had in mind the position of Slavic people in Central Europe in the middle of the 20th century or the first part of the 20th century, King. I don't know that he had that in mind. He might well have done. But certainly, that's the idea.
- LFLex Fridman
So, you don't think he was really thinking about, uh, this particular civil right struggle and the particular struggle f- um, against the backdrop of the history of slavery in America and thinking about African Americans? He wasn't thinking about the basic... He wasn't speaking to the basic worth of all human beings.
- GLGlenn Loury
No, I don't mean to say that. The speech in Washington...
- LFLex Fridman
The dream. (laughs)
- GLGlenn Loury
The, in, in 1963 at that march-
- LFLex Fridman
Yes.
- GLGlenn Loury
... was within the context of the United States. And he was... it was within the context of the Civil Rights Movement. There was a movement that was going on. Um, he was a actor in a political drama that was American that, that, that had to do with the fight over equal rights for voting, for housing, for employment, for, uh, citizenship of Blacks in America. But King was informed, I think, by a much broader Christian ethic of, uh, the equality of all persons. I mean, he, he gets killed in 1968. Uh, the five years after that, um, speech in Washington he spends, uh, developing his, uh, world view. And, um, the things that he had to say, for example, about the war in Southeast Asia that was going on at that time, uh, made appeals to universal principles of equality. He was a pacifist to some degree. He was against war. He was, uh, a socialist to some degree. He might not have worn that label publicly, but he believed in, uh, a decent society where the poor would not go untended, where healthcare would be available to people who needed it, and this kind of thing. A humanitarian who saw that the value of a life was not dependent upon the color of the skin, upon the native mother tongue that might be spoken, uh, upon whether male or female. Uh, a- all persons are created equal. This, this is very much the ethic of Martin Luther King, on my understanding.
- LFLex Fridman
Broadly speaking,
- 9:58 – 24:36
History of slavery
- LFLex Fridman
what do you learn about human nature by looking at the history of slavery in America?
- GLGlenn Loury
Oh, my.
- LFLex Fridman
So, what does that tell you about people?
- GLGlenn Loury
Well, I think of two things right off the top of my head. One is about the capacity of people for, uh, looking the other way in the face of, uh, unethical and, uh, you know, morally, uh, profoundly problematic practice. So, I mean, slavery was controversial. It was controversial going all the way back to the founding of the United States of America. The, uh, country was founded on a compromise where half of the country, uh, thought that slavery was, uh, was, uh, abhorrent and would not have had it, uh, countenanced in the Constitution. The other half of the country were steeped in the dependence on the labor of these African captives and their descendants. The economy depended upon it. They owned them as property. That was their wealth. Their wealth was invested to some degree in the value of these human beings. And in order for the United States to come together as a confederation of the several colonies, there had to be a compromise made. And it was made, where slavery was allowed to persist. Uh, and, uh, the people who were against it or who thought it morally problematic were able to countenance the practice in the Southern, uh, states where slavery flourished. And that went on for 75 years after the founding of the country until the crisis of the late 1850s that lead to the Civil War and ultimately to the Emancipation. So, one thing I think about human nature from the fact of slavery is that the ability of people to live with-... terrible, morally questionable practices and have that as a part of their institutions. It took a, a movement of, of a massive movement of, uh, abolitionists, uh, struggling against slavery, uh, for the better part of a century before, um, before that, that practice could be eradicated. But the other thing about human nature, uh, that I see is the ability of people to sustain their humanity under the most awful, oppressive conditions. Um, the enslaved persons, the slaves, um, and their children, I mean, they were chattel. They were bought and sold like horses or, or cattle. Um, and yet, uh, they were not... Their humanity was not destroyed by that. And, uh, they were able to sustain their dignity to some degree in such a manner that once emancipation finally did arrive, the freed men and women, the, the persons who had been enslaved and who were set free, were able to, uh, over the following decades, uh, build a, a foundation, uh, for the development of African Americans within the context of American society that eventually culminated in the civil rights movement of the middle of the 20th century and, uh, has led us into the present day. So, uh, you know, human nature can countenance awful evil, but human nature can also survive in the face of terrible evil. Th- that's what I take from slavery.
- LFLex Fridman
That survival, that flame can burn even when, uh, the s- the world around it tries to put it out. There's, there's still a little flame of human consciousness, of spirit, of culture, of whatever the hell that is that makes humans flourish and makes humans beautiful. That lives on.
- GLGlenn Loury
That's very...
- LFLex Fridman
No matter what.
- GLGlenn Loury
... well said. Yeah. I think you, you put it very well. There's gotta be some poetic way of expressing that, um-
- LFLex Fridman
(laughs) .
- GLGlenn Loury
... that...
- LFLex Fridman
Leave it to the poets. (laughs)
- GLGlenn Loury
Yeah.
- LFLex Fridman
What about the people that look the other way? How many people do you think, just regular people, knew that something is, this is wrong? Or did, do people through generations convince themselves, most people, most regular people, convince themselves that there's nothing wrong?
- GLGlenn Loury
Uh, uh, yeah.
- LFLex Fridman
I ask this question because I wonder what we're looking the other way on today also. Because, I mean, you have to kinda... If we're... You have to ask yourself these difficult questions of assuming we're the same people we were-
- GLGlenn Loury
Yeah.
- LFLex Fridman
... back then, then we're f- we can be flawed in that same kind of way. We can look the other, the other way just as others have in history.
- GLGlenn Loury
Yeah. Uh, you spoke of the European, uh, context and of the Nazis, and, um, certainly a lot of people had to be looking the other way when the massive crimes that were committed by that regime were being undertaken. I mean, railroad cars full of human beings being taken off to be slaughtered or to be worked to death in labor camps, or they'd be gassed, uh, et cetera. A lot of people had to know about what was going on and look the other way, uh, or enthusiastically supported the, the persecution of the Jews and the Gypsies and so on. And I don't know. I wasn't, you know, I wasn't around in 1840. My sense of the matter is that like many practices that are unjust, most people thought, uh, that's just the way it is. I mean, that's the world that they inherited. They, they, they were not moralists. Uh, they were not revolutionaries. They, they just wanted to go along. Uh, some people might have been troubled by it but thought there's nothing that can be done. Some people might have thought, "Well, they're, these Black Africans, they're not really like us and, you know, they are lucky to be here. If they were in Africa, they'd be worse off still." Uh, some people might have thought that. Uh, some people might have been disturbed but not been able to see what it is that they could do about it. Uh, they, they might have thought, "Oh, this is, you know, this is disgusting. This is, uh, you know, not something I would want to have anything to do with." But, uh, not knowing whether there's any practical way of opposing it that that's why you need a movement. You need, uh, for the people who are troubled by the practice to know that there are others like themselves equally troubled and as they gather together collectively, they can exert their, their influence. I mean, debates about the, the wrongness of slavery, as I say, go all the way back to the founding of the country. Uh, there, there were abolitionists and there were people who were, who opposed the compromise that led to the, uh, framing, uh, documents and, uh, institutions that created the United States of America, opposed the, the countenancing of slavery in that, in that situation. Um, but it took a while before that could come to a, come to a head and, um, produce the crisis which ultimately led to the eradication of slavery. I would note that, uh, slavery is not unique to the United States. It's not unique to the Western hemisphere....the enslavement of people, the trafficking in human chattel, uh, is something that one sees in- on, on a global basis. One sees it going all the way back to, uh, antiquity. So, we might ask, how is it that people finally came to turn their backs and eradicate the practice? That, that might be the thing worth really trying to understand because the practice itself is, you, you know... There's a wonderful book by the sociologist, Orlando Patterson, called Slavery and Social Death that was published in 1982, uh, which is a comprehensive history and social analysis of the institution of slavery over 2,500 years, going back to the classical Greek and Roman civilizations. Finding slavery in Africa, amongst Africans, finding slavery in the Middle East, finding slavery in the Far East, finding slavery in South Asia. The enslavement of people, the practice of taking someone as a captive in war and then, instead of killing them, which you could do, making them into your property, was, uh, very, very widespread in human culture. Uh, so I mean, I, I like to make this point sometimes when we- people are talking about how wrong slavery was, and I agree (laughs) without any question, uh, that the practice was, uh, profoundly morally, uh, problematic. Um, but I, I like to make the point that, uh, given how wrong it was, think about how, uh, impressive was the accomplishment of the eradication of slavery. Now, that was something ... I mean, there were 600,000 dead in the War Between the States, 1861 to 1865. In a country of 30 million people, that's a, that's a lot of dead people, uh, who gave their lives, not to eradicate slavery in, in every instance. Probably most of them were just fighting for, uh ... you know, th- they enlisted or were, uh, conscripted into the forces and they fought and they died. But the net effect of their having fought and died, uh, was to push along a process that led to the eradication of slavery. That's an amazing achievement. Uh, the slaves themselves were largely uneducated and, uh, you know, backward in their ... Of course, what else could they have been? They, they were kept in captivity. They were, uh, prevented from developing their human potential. And yet, uh, after the end of slavery, that population, that four million-plus African-descended people, uh, became the foundation for what, a century later, leads to Martin Luther King standing in the Washington Mall and giving that great speech. And now, here we are, 150 years down the road, and Barack Obama is President of the United States. Now, he did not descend from slaves. I think we must not lose track of that. But he identified as an African American and was a part of the population that consisted largely of people who descended from slaves. Um, and, uh, we are, we African Americans are, for all practical purposes, fully equal citizens of this great republic. That has happened within a century and a half, and I don't know that you can find any parallel to that kind of transformation in the status of people, uh, from human chattel, uh, to full citizens, uh, of the republic, anywhere in human history. It certainly, um, worth celebrating the achievement of the eradication of slavery, I would say.
- LFLex Fridman
And it probably started with a few people that i- inside their mind, dared to rebel. You know, it's interesting to think about how it all started, how in the state of injustice, the, the revolution percolates, like where it starts. You said people that see something is wrong find each other. It's, you know, it's in the ideas of charismatic individuals that not only know that something is wrong, but they're able to tell others about it and be, uh, convincing, and then together, gather and rise up. It's interesting to make this kind of incredible progress, from slavery to where we are today, to live out the ideal of this all men are created, created equal. Um-
- GLGlenn Loury
Yeah.
- LFLex Fridman
...the power of individual 'cause I, I, I don't, I don't know what you think about it, but I tend to think that a few small individuals probably originated this. It's like, it's the power of the individual 'cause sometimes we think, "There's injustice in the world, what can I possibly do?" But I tend to think one person can be the seed of starting to fix the injustice.
- GLGlenn Loury
Sure. One person here, one person there. Yeah. Um, one thinks, of course, of Frederick Douglass, the massively significant figure who was born in slavery, um, who, uh, stole his freedom. And, uh, because he was property and he, he decided he was not gonna be property anymore, and he, he took it unto himself to emancipate himself personally, and who became an educated, uh, powerfully articulate, uh, massively influential person in the United States and in England-... uh, going around, eh, presenting himself as a, an embodiment of human dignity and, um, uh, uh, commitment to ideals of equality. And, uh, you know, I mean, he's just one person, but, uh, there were others, uh, like-
- LFLex Fridman
Just one person. All it takes is just one person. So here we are
- 24:36 – 40:59
Equality of outcome
- LFLex Fridman
(sighs) . On this topic of equality in, uh, the 21st century. So what does equality mean today? If you start to think about this idea of equality of outcome... or the injustice of inequality, at which point does equality of outcome is just, at which point is it unjust? Sort of looking at our world today and looking at in- inequality, how do we know that some inequality is a sign of injustice and some is the way of life? So what does equality mean when we look at the world today different from Dr. King's speech of the basic humanity?
- GLGlenn Loury
I don't think King's speech, um, "I have a dream that one day my four little children will be judged not by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character," requires equality of outcome. He says his children will be judged by the content of their character. That's a conditional statement. That is the judgment will depend upon the content of their character, not the color of their skin. But it doesn't follow from that, that the outcomes, whatever outcomes we consider wealth and economic power, um, uh, position within the society, representation in the various professions, uh, the, uh, various measures of social achievement, doesn't follow from judging by the content of character and not color of skin that when we look at the end of the day at the social outcomes, that they will be equal across the different groups. In fact, I think there's a contradiction in the idea that groups will be equal in all of the various social outcomes, that they will be equally successful in business, that they will be, um, proportionately represented in the various professions, that they will have the same educational achievement, that the, um, occupational profiles will look the same. Uh, if they are in fact distinct groups with their own cultural traditions and practices, with their own ideals and norms, um, various immigrant populations, people coming to the United States of America from all corners of the world, uh, the descendants of the African slaves, the Black Americans here today who are ourselves various with different origins and so on, uh, the different religious practices and commitments that Jewish or Mormon or Christian or whatever. The, the, however we parcel up the total population into the various groups, these groups are themselves different from one another. They have different norms within their own cultural practice. How would we expect, if in fact we recognize that the groups are different from one another, that in a world that is fair, they would all come out equally represented in every undertaking? They're not equally represented, and that fact, I'm arguing, is in and of itself insufficient to justify the conclusion that they're not somehow being fairly treated. Fair treatment doesn't imply equal outcomes in a world in which the populations in question are themselves different with respect to their culture, their practices, their norms, their traditions, uh, their beliefs, their ideals, um, and so on. The fact of those different norms, traditions, beliefs, cultural orientations and ideals will have consequences in terms of their different social outcomes. So I just think it's a mistake, uh, that people are making, uh, when they think fairness of treatment implies equality of outcomes. It does not. Is the process by which, uh, we're, we're speaking now, uh, in the midst of the, of the National Basketball Association's playoffs. Uh, I confess to being a Boston Celtics fan. Uh, I mean, I'm just...
- LFLex Fridman
(laughs)
- GLGlenn Loury
It's a very good team and I'm excited about my Celtics.
- LFLex Fridman
(laughs)
- GLGlenn Loury
Uh, we defeated the, uh, Brooklyn, uh, Nets. I mean, we defeated Kevin Durant and Kyrie Irving and company, okay? In a playoff series.
- LFLex Fridman
Mm-hmm.
- GLGlenn Loury
We whipped them and we're on our way to, you know, the Eastern Conference Finals and we're on our way to the NBA Finals and I'm, you know... If I were a betting man, I'd put down a, a few bucks that the Boston Celtics, underrated as we are, have a very good chance of winning the NBA Finals. Okay, so that's the NBA. That's the National Basketball Association. I'm a sports fan. I like basketball.
- LFLex Fridman
Slightly biased prediction, but yes.
- GLGlenn Loury
(laughs) Yeah, it is somewhat biased. All I'm saying is if you take a look at who the star players are in the National Basketball Association, you're gonna find that there's some Eastern Europeans. You know, there's some really good basketball players coming out of, uh, Eastern Europe.You know, they're-
- LFLex Fridman
Yeah.
- GLGlenn Loury
... uh, and more power to 'em. Um, and there are a lot of African Americans. Uh, we're over-represented. Uh, there are not that many Jews, as far as I know. Uh, no offense intended there, Lex. But I mean-
- LFLex Fridman
(laughs)
- GLGlenn Loury
... the NBA is not equally representative of all of the different populations in the United States. Now, we could go into the reasons why, but I'm just saying, the process by which you get to be playing in the NBA is fair. If you can play, you can get on the court. That- they- th- all they're looking for is people who can play. I think something like that is true in many different venues. I expect, if you're a really good technical engineer, companies are gonna employ you. Uh, and if you can make money, uh, they're gonna advance you, and, and you will be able to, uh, rise to the top of that profession. I, I expect that the people who are, uh, engaged in, uh, financial transactions, who are actually making bets on the market, by and large, are the people who are good at that activity. And if you're good at that activity in this world, in this modern world, you're gonna rise to, uh, rise to the top. Um, I'm not saying that there are no barriers of discrimination, of course- of course there are, of many different sorts. But I'm saying that to expect that there would be, okay, I mean, let's look at who's actually writing code, let's look at who's actually trading bonds, so let- let's look at, uh, who's- who's actually starting businesses, um, and so on. To say that if- that, in a fair world, I would expect that if Blacks are 10% of the population, they'd be 10% of every one of those things is to ignore the reality that the differences in the culture and practices and norms of the various population groups will lead to differences in their representation amongst people who are outstanding performers in one or another activity.
- LFLex Fridman
How do you know if the difference in culture accounts for the difference in outcomes, or it's the existence of barriers, especially barriers early on in life, of discrimination that are racially based? So, if you think about affirmative action, is, (sighs) in which ways is affirmative action empowering? In which way is it limiting for these early development of the- of the different groups, but let's just speak to African Americans. We should say that you went to some no-name Northwestern University at first, but then you ended up with the great university of MIT. Uh, so, uh, so that's- that's your, not early, but middle development. Um, so speaking of the development, the opportunities, the equality of opportunity, how do we know we got that equality right?
- GLGlenn Loury
Yeah. I- I'm glad you put it like that. We were talking about results. Now we're talking about opportunity. I was taking the position that when King says, "I have a dream," and he envisions a world where his children will not be barred from, uh, the good things in life because of the color of their skin, we're talking about opportunity, not about results. But opportunity is not just something that depends upon what the law is and what public policies are. Opportunity also depends upon, uh, the- the social conditions in which people are- are- are raised, the social and economic conditions. So, the child of a poor family that has no resources doesn't have the same opportunity as a child of a wealthy family to realize their full human potential. Y- you asked me, how can we tell whether or not a difference in outcomes is a reflection of unequal opportunity or it's a reflection of differences in culture, and interest, and- and practice, and I don't know that there's a single answer to that question. But I think one wants to look at the data. Uh, one- one wants to try to measure, you know, as- as a social scientist, I would say you, what you wanna do is you wanna estimate the, uh, e- the significance of various factors for determining the outcome. If the outcome is how much money does a person make when they work in the labor market, so you look at their wages, and you think, "Well, that depends upon a number of things." It depends upon how educated they are, what kind of skills they have, what kind of work experience they have, uh, and so on. And those things are all legitimate factors, uh, that might determine how much they end up making in the labor market. But you also wanna, perhaps, con- uh, controlling for those things, see whether or not the fact that they are Black or they are Latino or whatever, the fact that they are male or that they are female, uh, the fact that they do or do not speak English as their native language, this kind of thing, whether those factors also are implicated in determining, uh, how successful they are on the labor market. And if you find that after you have controlled for the things that are legitimately determining, uh, success and failure in the labor market, like skills and education and experience, having control for those things, the fact that a person is Black or is a woman or is an immigrant or, uh, is of, uh, of, uh, Latino, uh, uh, background, uh, also, uh, affects their earnings, then you might conclude that, to that extent, they are not getting equal opportunity in the labor market, that kind of idea.But I want to focus, um, a little bit more here on what we mean by opportunity, because it's not just whether employers treat the worker on a fair and even basis, irregardless of the worker's racial or ethnic background. That's one opportunity issue, but that's op- that's at the end of the development process. They are now presenting themselves to the market, trying to find work, and being employed at this or that wage. That's the end of the line. What about the developmental opportunity, the opportunity to acquire skills in the first place? That goes all the way back. That goes all the way back to birth. It even goes back to before birth. Um, the mother carrying the infant in the womb, she has certain nutritional, uh, practices, uh, she might be smoking or drinking alcohol or something like that. I'm not saying she is, I'm not saying she isn't, I'm just saying whether she is, so- so she isn't, it will affect the development of the fetus. Uh, the newborn, uh, now there's a question of environment. Uh, there's a question of the development of their, uh, neurological, uh, potential. Uh, do they learn how to read? Uh, do, uh, h- are they stimulated verbally? How many words have they heard spoken? Uh, are, are they, uh, being, uh, nurtured in a home environment so as to maximize the possibility of them achieving their human potential? Uh, what about the peer group influences? What about the values and norms of the surrounding, um, uh, human communities in which they're embedded? Do they encourage the young person to apply themselves, uh, in a systematic way to their studies and to their, uh, focus on their acquisition of language command and of their educational potential? Uh, th- uh, so development is not only something that is controlled by s- the society's practices, it's also something that is influenced by the, the cultural background of, of the individual. And those things are not equal. Uh, those things vary across, uh, groups in, in a, uh, very, uh, significant way, and th- that too will be a factor, uh, determining disparities of outcome. So when I see outcomes that are different, I see wealth-holding, uh, that's different. I see educational achievement that's different. I see representation in the professional schools and law school and medical school that's different between groups. One question is, are the institutions treating people fairly? But another question is, uh, d- do the background and social and cultural influences equip people, uh, in the same way? And we know that the answer to that, not in every instance do they equip people in the same way. And so it makes the judgment, the moral judgment that we make when we see inequality of outcome complicated. Um, inequality of outcome is a systemic factor to some degree, but it is also a cultural factor to some degree, I want to say. Now, that's controversial, I know. Uh, a lot of people, uh, they think of themselves as being progressive. Uh, they, they want to, uh, point a finger at society whenever they see a disparity. Uh, but I think that that's a mistake. I think it misunderstands the, the, uh, difficulty of the problem that you, you think that if you get the right law, uh, if you have the right public policy, uh, if the right politicians are elected to office, suddenly those disparities will go away. And, um, I'm here to tell you that, uh, that that's a, a false hope. Um, and, and moreover, it is probably the wrong goal. Uh, but I mean, we could go into that. Uh, you, you were talking about affirmative action, which is, is so- something else all together. Uh, and you were talking about me and my education, which is also something, uh, that's a little bit different. And I'm happy to talk about those things. Northwestern University, by the way, was a great university.
- LFLex Fridman
I'm just joking. It's-
- GLGlenn Loury
(laughs)
- LFLex Fridman
... it's, uh, one of the great universities of the world, yes.
- GLGlenn Loury
And I'd studied mathematics at Northwestern University-
- LFLex Fridman
Yes.
- GLGlenn Loury
... which is how I ended up at MIT in the first place.
- LFLex Fridman
Yes.
- GLGlenn Loury
And I got a very good technical training in mathematics when I was at Northwestern,
- 40:59 – 57:15
Math and economics
- GLGlenn Loury
so...
- LFLex Fridman
You love both mathematics and human nature, and so which is why you ended up s- going into economics at one of the great economics programs in the world at MIT and getting your PhD there. So, one of the many hats you wear is that of an economist, which allows you to think systematically and rigorously about the way the world and the way humans work at scale, um, trying to remove the full mushy mess of humans, like a psychology perspective economics allows you to do.
- GLGlenn Loury
Well, economics is one of the social sciences. I, I think there's value in psychology and in sociology. There's a lot to know that doesn't come up within the study of economics. We study markets and, you know, uh, w- the dynamics of, uh, economic, uh, development and, you know, trade and, um, you know, so on. But, uh, yeah, uh, s- speaking personally, as I was coming along, uh, I was fascinated by mathematics. I was good at it. And, uh, ended up at Northwestern and, uh, took s- a lot of courses there and, you know, functional analysis and logic and mathematics and, uh, dynamical systems and, you know, uh, th- stuff that I ended up employing in my graduate studies in economics. But...You're right. I, I was not satisfied simply to be proving theorems. I, I wanted to be addressing issues of social significance. Uh, and economics, uh, I discovered, to my delight, uh, was a field of study that allowed me both to, uh, develop rigorous analytical frameworks, you know, modeling, uh, and precision of logical, uh, you know, deduction and, and inference. Uh, on the one hand, satisfying my mathematical, uh, interests, but on the other hand could address questions of social significance like, why does racial inequality persist? Uh, why are some countries prospering and growing and others, uh, less so? Uh, why do the prices of, uh, raw materials fluctuate in the way that they do over time? And so on and so forth. And I ended up, uh, falling in love with the application of mathematical analysis to the study of social issues.
- LFLex Fridman
What to you is beautiful about mathematics, about mathematical puzzles, about logic, all, all those kinds of things? 'Cause you... (laughs) It's still there. The love for math is still there for you, so is there something you could speak to? What is the f- the kernel, the flame of that love?
- GLGlenn Loury
Uh, it's like magic.
- LFLex Fridman
(laughs)
- GLGlenn Loury
I mean, you know, b- being able to prove something and, uh, I mean, you know, I think of, uh, offhand, you know, there's lo- there's no largest prime number, okay? So how do I, how- how-
- LFLex Fridman
That's exciting t-
- GLGlenn Loury
... would somebody know that-
- LFLex Fridman
(laughs)
- GLGlenn Loury
... okay, what's a prime number? So a prime number is a number that has n- a whole number that has no divisor, uh, other than one. There are no, uh, divisors of the number that makes it a prime number, like 13 or 19 or 37, whatever, okay. So they're prime numbers. There's no largest prime number. There are infinite number of prime numbers, there's no largest prime number, okay? That's an idea you can get your mind around it in an instant. It, it, it doesn't take a whole lot o' depth to see the question. There's no largest prime number.
- LFLex Fridman
I wonder if prime numbers show up in economics. I mean, that-
- GLGlenn Loury
Oh, they don't show up in economics-
- LFLex Fridman
n-
- GLGlenn Loury
... ex- except i- cryptography. I understand they're-
- LFLex Fridman
Yes.
- GLGlenn Loury
... important-
- LFLex Fridman
Yes, yes.
- GLGlenn Loury
... for code, uh, you know, in, in, in, in coding stuff, and-
- LFLex Fridman
And that shows up in economics. But in terms of models-
- GLGlenn Loury
Yeah.
- LFLex Fridman
... um, probably not. That's, that's ... so prime numbers are little, um, you know, in a, a, um, abstract algebra, it's like, they show up in all these places. They're just like beautiful mathematical puzzles that don't immediately have an application but somehow maybe challenge you, and as a result, push mathematics forward, like Fermat's Last Theorem, you know? As far as I know, n- no obvious real world application but it has challenged mathematicians throughout the centuries.
- GLGlenn Loury
Indeed.
- LFLex Fridman
And (laughs) and somehow i- indirectly progressed, uh, the field. But, uh-
- GLGlenn Loury
That the rational numbers are countable.
- LFLex Fridman
Yeah.
- GLGlenn Loury
They c- they can be put in one-to-one, uh, relationship with the integers and, you know, but that the real numbers are not countable and there's a lot more real nu- quote/unquote more real numbers. These are orders of infinity. This is, uh, Cantor, Georg Cantor and, uh, all that kinda, that kinda stuff, or Godel's, uh, uh, theorem. I, I studied this as an undergraduate, you know, the incompleteness theorem that there are propositions within any logical system that's rich enough to accommodate, uh, accommodate arithmetic. There are going to be propositions that you can formulate that are true but that you cannot prove to be true. Uh, so the idea that you could systematically develop a, a logical framework for mathematical inquiry, uh, that could demonstrate the truth or falsity of any proposition, uh, is, uh, not a feasible goal. This was Hilbert's project, as I understand it, and, uh, uh, Godel showed that there was no hope ever of being able to-
- LFLex Fridman
(laughs) It's so stark.
- GLGlenn Loury
... to demonstrate the closure of, of, of logical systems that were-
- LFLex Fridman
Yes.
- 57:15 – 1:10:31
Racial groups
- GLGlenn Loury
- LFLex Fridman
Well, is there some general things that are really powerful in terms of, you said nation, religion, those are groups.
- GLGlenn Loury
Yeah.
- LFLex Fridman
Can, can you group people nicely in helping you understand human nature? So, group them into nations based on their citizenry, and that's geography, right? The, the, the geographic location of your birth or your, uh, long-term residence or maybe religious belief, what you, what religion you have believed over time. Is there groups like that? And then race. Is that useful? What are the pros and cons of looking at outcomes based on these kinds of groups? Race in particular.
- GLGlenn Loury
I think there are pros and I think there are cons. I mean, I am myself, Glenn Loury, who sits before you right now, a Black American, an African American. I, I, quote unquote, "I identify as." You know, that's-
- LFLex Fridman
(laughs) .
- GLGlenn Loury
... the way they talk about it nowadays. I identify as a Black American. My skin is brown. My hair is coarse. My nose is broad, uh, relative to the way other people's noses look. My lips are thicker. That's a consequence of my ancestral descent from, uh, the human population resident in the African continent in millennia past. Uh, my race. Uh, here in the United States, we have various, quote unquote, "races," uh, defined crudely in the way that I just tried to define myself. You could say, and I think there is a very powerful argument that these are superficial differences. I mean, really? Why should it matter that your eye color or your hair color or the shape of the bones in your face, uh, or the color, the tone of your skin, the amount of melanin, how it is that you react to ultraviolet radiation in terms of your skin, what is that to be the basis of anything? I mean, that's arbitrary. That, that's not meaningful. Could there really be meaning in these superficial differences among human beings? Isn't that a archaic or barbaric way of thinking about ourselves to look at each other's skin color or hair texture and then to decide, oh, that's a Black or that's a white or that's a Latin or that's an Asian or that's a whatever. The, the, the, "That's something that we should outgrow," a person might say. "That's a relic of a kind of tribal society, of a kind of pre-modern society where, uh, we built real structure on the basis of such superficial difference." A person could say that. On the other hand, I am a Black American. I mean, that's part of my identity, that's part of my heritage, it's part of the stories that I tell myself about who my people are. Why, why do I need a people? Why do I need a narrative of dissent in which I affiliate with a, uh, racially defined people? Do I really need that? I mean, I think that's an important question. I, I, in fact, this is a confession, think of myself as Black. I could think of myself as simply human. I could......not identify specifically as Black. I could, I could say, "Uh, my- my eyes are brown too. So what? I'm, I'm a brown eye?"
- LFLex Fridman
Right.
- GLGlenn Loury
I mean, you know, I'm gonna invent a group based on my eye color? Um, I weigh 290 pounds. I'm gonna have a body size group? I'm a plus-200 and that's, oh, quote, "Who I am," close quote? I don't do that. I came from Chicago. Yes, I do have a certain sense of affinity with my hometown. I'm a Chicago-born person, but frankly, I haven't lived in Chicago since 1979. That's a long time. Uh, I wear my Chicago origins very, very lightly. I would not go to war with someone from Cleveland or St. Louis and fight to the death with that, uh, St. Louis person, or that Cleveland person, based upon the fact that we come from different cities.
- LFLex Fridman
And you have even abandoned, in your heart, the Chicago Bulls.
- GLGlenn Loury
There's some Chicago that's still in me, I suppose. But it's not, it's not very deep. It- it- it's not, quote, "Who I am," uh, anymore. And I'm wondering, uh, here I'm trying to pose a question, why is it that being a descendant of African slaves should be who I am? So there's some answers. One answer is, people will look at me and deal with me differently based upon what they see. I don't have control over that. I'm going to be perceived as a member of a group whether or not I elect to affiliate myself with that group or not. Therefore, I need to be mindful of the fact that regardless of what my internal orientation is, the world will perceive me in a particular way, and will perceive me differently based upon the color of my skin. So a police officer who stops me at 2:00 in the morning because my taillight is out, and asks me for my, uh, automobile registration, and I reach quickly to the glove compartment to get my registration, and the police officer says, "Show me your hands," and I don't quite hear what he says, or I ignore what he says as I- I'm getting my, uh, document out of my glove compartment. But the police officer thinks because I have not responded to his demand to show my hands that I might be reaching for a weapon, and the police officer sees that I'm Black, and fears that the likelihood that I might have a weapon is higher because in that town, at that time, a lot of the people who get stopped with weapons in their car happen to be Black and male, and so on. And he pulls his weapon and he discharges it, and I'm bleeding out there, and I'm dead now. And I, all of that is a possibility that's very real and it's based upon the color of my skin. And therefore, when he stops me, I keep my hands on the steering wheel and I don't go to the glove compartment, and I'm fearful of the fact that he might mistake me for a criminal, et cetera. Or I walk into a high-end, uh, store, clothing store, uh, I see you're nicely dressed there, Lex, uh, I'm not, but that's okay.
- LFLex Fridman
(laughs) You look great.
- GLGlenn Loury
I- I- I do have some good clothes at home, I just didn't wear them here today.
- LFLex Fridman
Yeah.
- GLGlenn Loury
Uh, but you know what I mean? And I- and the clothing, the- the salesman in the clothing store, uh, either treats me like, uh, you know, an old friend, and is warm and welcoming, and "What can I do for you sir?" And "Let me show you this and that." And "What are you looking for?" And what... Because he thinks I'm gonna spend $1,000 there that day and he's gonna get a 5% commission or whatever it is. And, you know, he either does that or he ignores me and looks at me with suspicion and thinks I might be trying to shoplift something, or thinks that I'm only gonna spend fi- $50 and not $500 and therefore I'm not worth his time. And I'm aware of the fact that when I go into the clothing store, especially the high-end places where I can buy some, uh, buy a good suit or, you know, buy some really good s- dress shirts or slacks that, uh, fit me well and so on, I'm aware of the fact that I may not be taken seriously by the salesman based upon the fact that he's looking at me and he sees a Black person. And therefore, um, I dress up before I go to, go out to buy clothes to get dr- you know, 'cause I want to present myself as not someone who just walked in off the street, but as one of those Black people who is really prepared to spend some money in the store so that I can be treated with respect. And I have to carry the burden, such as it is, of knowing that I need to earn the, uh, s- being taken seriously by overcoming the suppositions that people may have about me based upon the color o- of my skin. Something like that. Or, I ask myself, "Wh- what am I gonna teach my children about who they are and where they come from? What stories am I gonna tell them about their ancestors? Who are their ancestors?" Every African American has European ancestors. Every Black person in the United States of America... I think that I can say that almost without exception. We could go to 23andMe and look at the DNA. They have European ancestors, they're not purely African. Uh, that's a fact, and that's a consequence of the, uh, experience of African-descended people because it's a mixed population. My name is Lowry, spelled L-O-U-R-Y but pronounced as if it were L-O-W-E-R-Y, and, uh, I gather if you trace the history of that name that it's, uh, Scottish.
- LFLex Fridman
(laughs)
- GLGlenn Loury
So somewhere back in-
- LFLex Fridman
So you could identify as a Scot?
- GLGlenn Loury
I- Well, or I could claim some Scottish descent.
- LFLex Fridman
Mm-hmm.
- GLGlenn Loury
But I don't, I don't know who those ancestors are. And frankly, I don't know who my enslaved ancestors are. I- I can't trace my family history back very far into the n- 19th century. Um, but so what, what stories do I tell my children about who we are, about who their ancestors are? I mean, I want to tell my s- children some story and that story is gonna be colored......quote unquote, by my race. So even though it is superficial and in an ideal world you might think, "Why would human beings..." (laughs) I mean, I, I read science fiction so the-there's this Chinese writer, Cixin Liu is his name. I might not pronounce it exactly right. C-I-X-I-N-
- LFLex Fridman
Mm-hmm.
- GLGlenn Loury
...L-I-U. Cixin Liu. He has a trilogy, uh, The Three Body Problem-
- LFLex Fridman
Mm-hmm.
- GLGlenn Loury
...The Dark Forest, and Death's End. Those are the three books of Cixin Liu's trilogy about how Trisolaris, which is another star system within a few light, light years of the solar system, and Earth get into a conflict. And when the Trisolarans come down to dominate Earth, suddenly all of these differences between the Chinese, and the North Americans, and the Europeans, and the Africans, and the South Asians, uh, become kinda insignificant because after all, the Trisolarans, with their advanced civilization, uh, whose star system is dying, have their eyes on the solar system which has a planet the third rock from the sun that is pretty habitable and, you know, the difference between us become pretty insignificant. Uh, so (laughs) we shouldn't need for an invasion by extraterrestrial beings to have to happen before we would recognize the common humanity that we all share that is profound and is deep. We all descend, in effect, from the same ancestral population of Homo sapiens who walked out of East Africa eons ago and have s- survived amongst all of the different possible, you know, variations of species and whatnot, of humanoid population. The Homo sapiens have flourished, the others have died out, uh, and here we are and, and, uh, you know, we can just look at the genetic endowments that characterize our biological essence and then we can see that, uh, we are all, quote unquote, "the same" beneath the skin and yet we end up, uh, freighting so much weight onto these superficial differences. So I can, I can see both sides of the issue, is what I'm saying. I can see the argument race is an irrelevancy because at the end of the day, deep down, it is. But I can also see the argument that I hold onto racial identity because A, my racial presentation colors how other people deal with me. But B, because everybody needs a story.
- LFLex Fridman
Mm-hmm.
- GLGlenn Loury
You know, everybody needs an account. You tell me you're Jewish. I mean, I don't know how deep that is. I don't know how genetically profound that is. I do know that it's a culturally profound identity for a lot of people, uh, based upon maybe some of the same kind of forces that I'm talking about. A, they won't let you not be Jewish. Y- you can say you're not Jewish, but when Hitler's rounding people up, what you say doesn't w- have a whole lot of due with, with h- what, what the Gestapo was about.
- LFLex Fridman
Yeah.
- GLGlenn Loury
And B, you need to tell your children a story.
- LFLex Fridman
Yeah.
- 1:10:31 – 1:20:24
Black patriotism
- LFLex Fridman
we form tribes as humans, throughout human history, form tribes and have directed hate toward other tribes, and sometimes violence and destruction, and yet tribalism allows you to tell a story to your children. Allows you to grow a culture. There's something about defining yourself within particular tribe-
- GLGlenn Loury
Yeah.
- LFLex Fridman
...that allows you to, uh, have a tradition.
- GLGlenn Loury
Yeah.
- LFLex Fridman
Um, you have, uh, um, article that you wrote called The Case for Black Patriotism.
- GLGlenn Loury
Oh, yeah. (laughs)
- LFLex Fridman
(laughs) So I should also say it's so interesting because for me personally, uh, I feel, identify as, believe I am an American. And yet within the American umbrella it feels like there's a longing for other tribes. You mentioned Jewish, but what I honestly feel is, I mean, a lot of it is humor and culture and so on, is Russian and Ukrainian 'cause that's, that's where I come from.
- GLGlenn Loury
Yeah.
- LFLex Fridman
That's where my family is from.
- GLGlenn Loury
Yeah.
- LFLex Fridman
You know, there's like stereotypical things that are, um, funny, humorous type of thing about Russians that's showing no emotion, um, good at chess and math, uh, into wrestling-
- GLGlenn Loury
Yeah. (laughs)
- LFLex Fridman
...uh, drinking vodka. I mean, there's, there's literally every single stereotype, I'm in the embodiment of that.
- GLGlenn Loury
Yes.
- LFLex Fridman
So there's a, you celebrate that in certain kinds of ways. There's a tradition there within the American umbrella, and some of it is humor, s- some of it is, uh, little quirks of culture. But now, with the war in Russia and Ukraine interestingly enough, even that little thing becomes also a source of, uh, negative tribalism. But anyway, uh, that context aside, what is Black patriotism and why do you feel...
- GLGlenn Loury
I mean, I'm speaking in an article called The Case for Black Patriotism in a particular context and I... What I'm saying basically is very simple. I'm saying we are African Americans and the emphasis should be on the American. I actually don't even much care for the framing African American, but I'm not gonna fight with people about it. It, it's, you know, I don't think it's worth fighting about. That's not our... I would just say we're Americans. Or if you want, we're Black Americans. We're certainly not African.That is, the African American population is a population of people who come into existence here in North America through the cauldron of slavery. There are also immigrants; immigrants from East Africa, immigrants from West Africa, immigrants from Southern Africa, immigrants from the Caribbean who descend from an ancestral population which is African. We-- you know, the history of the world since 1500 is a history in which people of African descent are scattered, uh, because of slavery throughout the Western Hemisphere, and, uh, so here we are. But the institution of slavery ended in 1863 in the United States. The struggle that we started out talking about which, um, gave rise to Martin Luther King giving that speech that you say is the greatest speech in a- American history, and I'm not gonna argue with you about that-
- LFLex Fridman
(laughs)
- GLGlenn Loury
... happened right here in the United States.
- LFLex Fridman
Yes.
- GLGlenn Loury
We are this... What is the United States? The United States is a nation of immigrants. Uh, the population of the North American continent was sparsely populated by an Indigenous population which was destroyed in conquest by a European population that settled here in North America and appropriated the land and have built a civilization here, which has been peopled by a large influx of individuals from, uh, Europe; the Irish, and Italian, and Greek, and Slavic, and, uh, Jewish, Russian Jews coming in large numbers, and, uh, so on, and wave after wave after wave of immigration. Asian, Latin American population of people have come, uh, to reside here in the United States, and we Black Americans who descend from slaves. We African Americans who descend from slaves. So here we are. This is a great nation. I mean, this is a, a monumentally significant political force, which is the United States of America, founded in, um, 1776, 1787. Uh, fought a war of independence from the British. Uh, established a republic which is a, uh, confederation of these independent colonies which has grown into now the 50 states of the United States of America, a continental nation. The richest and most powerful nation on the planet, with massive influence throughout the world, uh, for good and for ill. That's who we are, I want to say to Black people. There is no other home for us. Th- this fantasy of we being a people apart, uh, back in the day when I was coming along in the 1960s, there was something called the Republic of New Africa movement, and they wanted some states in the South given over to Black people and we were going to have our own country. And that's a, that's a joke. It's a fantasy. It's, it's, uh, it's, it's a mythic, uh, uh, unbalanced, uh, unrealistic, uh, uh, fanciful politics. It's not a serious politics. We're Americans. We're not going anywhere here. The idea that... A- and I want to say this in, in a number of different registers. I want to say first of all, we need to make peace with the fact that that's who we are and that's where we are. So, uh, nobody is coming. The World Court is not going to litigate our disputes. Uh, the United Nations is not gonna set up a desk for people of African descent who reside in North America. We have to work out whatever our concerns are with our fellow Americans right here within the context of American politics. That means compromise. Uh, uh, that means looking for frame- a, a framework for political expression which is broader than our racial identity, et cetera. So I, I want to say that. But I also want to say there's no reason to apologize for this. There's something positive to affirm. I take on this question about slavery, um, in, you know, in brief, in brief, because in fact slavery was awful and it was wrong and it was, uh, on the backs of the enslaved Africans and it had consequences that endured, that have endured long after the termination of the thing. But I also want to say, look at what has happened in the last 150 years for African Americans. And I want to say, look at the, uh, vitality of the institutions here in the United States of America, of the Democratic Republic of the United States of America, again, not perfect, which are, which are malleable enough, these institutions, to allow for the transformation of the status of African Americans such as has occurred since, uh, the end of slavery. And I want to say there's a lot to celebrate in that. So this is our country. Um, we are, uh, full members of the polity. Uh, we have, uh, burdens and responsibilities as well as privileges that are associated with our membership in this republic. That does not mean that we should not fight for what we believe to be right, although we are not one voice here, we Black Americans. It does not mean that we should not protest things that we think are deserving of protest. But I want to say, it does mean that we should not reject the framework that we're operating in because we basically don't have any alternative and because when viewed in full context, a noble and profoundly significant achievement, the United States of America, and a beacon, uh, to the rest of the world. And I don't want to g-...you know, go off in some starry-eyed kind of jingoistic celebration of America as the greatest civilization, et cetera, et cetera. But this great nation, uh, is, um, our nation, and I think we do best by beginning... We Black Americans do best by beginning... This is my argument in the piece. By beginning fr- from a framework which accepts that fact and then builds on it.
- LFLex Fridman
(inhales deeply) So, Black patriotism is, (exhales deeply) it's not exactly the same, but rhymes, echoes American patriotism. So, a Black American is first and foremost an American.
- GLGlenn Loury
Yeah. A Black American is first and foremost an American, and it's a good thing, too.
- LFLex Fridman
Hmm.
- 1:20:24 – 1:34:04
MLK and Malcolm X
- LFLex Fridman
(inhales deeply) Let me return to the question of, uh, Dr. King and another powerful, impactful individual, Malcolm X, to ask you the question... Well, first, people often perhaps inaccurately, uh, portray them as representing two different i- ideals, approaches to the fight for civil rights. So, Mar- Martin Luther King for the non-violent approach, the peacemaker. And then Malcolm X is the by any means necessary. What do you think about this distinction? And broadly speaking, in Black patriotism, in the future of Black Americans in the 21st century, what is the role of anger? What is the role of-
- GLGlenn Loury
Yeah.
- LFLex Fridman
...protest? Even, you know, violence encompasses a lot of things.
- GLGlenn Loury
Yeah.
- LFLex Fridman
But just aggression and the, you know, "Fuck the man, we're going to have to-
- GLGlenn Loury
Yeah.
- LFLex Fridman
...make change, force change."
- GLGlenn Loury
Okay. I think you put your finger on something really important in the context of... We were just discussing my Black patriotism essay, and, um, it's not the only, it's not the only story. There, there is another story, and Malcolm X is one... Is someone you identify. And his memory lives on and is powerfully influential. Uh, and I think you see it in Black Lives Matter, and I think you see it in the protest and rioting and so forth that has broken out periodically going all the way back to the 1960s and before, but especially since, uh, the 1960s. You saw it in Los Angeles in 1992 in the Rodney King civil disturbances that broke out there. And the b- the balled-up fist, the radical, uh, Afrocentric rejection of the, uh, American story that Martin Luther King, he believed in. He believed in a magnificent promissory note. And a lot of people are rolling their eyes, you know, and saying, you know, as you say, "Fuck the man." Magnificent promissory note? I mean, just get your knee off my neck. You can... That- that's what you can do for me. Don't ask me to believe in your-
- LFLex Fridman
Yeah.
- GLGlenn Loury
...BS about some magnificent promissory note, some founding fathers who were all slave owners anyway. I mean, just get your knee off my neck. Now, I can relate to that. Uh, as I mentioned, I grew up in Chicago in the 1950s and the 1960s. I remember Malcolm X, I mean, literally in real time. I remember when he was murdered, um, in 1965 in the Audubon Ballroom, uh, in Harlem, in Manhattan, in New York City. Um, I remember my uncle... I- I was raised in a house where my aunt and uncle were the master of the house, and my mother and my sister and I lived in a small apartment upstairs in the back of this, of this big house that my successful aunt and uncle owned. And my uncle was a small businessman, a barber and a tradesman. He was, he was a hustler. I mean, legally a hustler. I mean, he did what he had to do to make money. H- he was very enterprising. Not especially well-educated, but, uh, a very intelligent and, uh, disciplined, um, and resourceful provider for his family, which included myself, my sister and my mother, and their household. And we called him Uncle Mooney because he had moon-shaped eyes that protruded and were round. Uncle Mooney. Uh, James Ellis was his name. Uncle Mooney. James Ellis Lee was my Uncle Mooney. But I'm saying all that to say this: he admired the nation of Islam. I mean, King and Malcolm X... Martin King and Malcolm X differed along a number of different dimensions. Malcolm X was a Muslim, and Martin Luther King Jr. was a Christian minister. My uncle Mooney didn't have any time for these Christian ministers. He thought that was the white man's religion. He... You know, and back in that day, you'd go into Black church and you'd see a portrait of Jesus, and he'd be a (censored) blond-haired-
- LFLex Fridman
(laughs)
- GLGlenn Loury
...blue-eyed-
- LFLex Fridman
Yeah.
- GLGlenn Loury
...he didn't even look like a, like a Mediterranean. He didn't... I mean, he didn't look like somebody who came from, uh, Palestine. I mean, he looked like somebody who came, uh, from Northern Europe or something like that. The picture of Jesus... And my uncle Mooney rejected that whole thing. He would be damned if he was gonna bend his knee to some white Jesus. Uh, but he was not a Muslim either, but he respected-... the Muslims. He brought home, uh, their newspaper. It was called Muhammad Speaks. This is the Nation of Islam, which is the Black Muslim movement, uh, founded, uh, in, uh, American cities in Detroit and in Chicago, uh, going back to the early middle 20th century, and growing into a very significant movement, uh, that had a lot of influence. Louis Farrakhan, an, uh, controversial figure, descends from this movement. It has, uh, fractured now, and, uh, has the major part of the legacy of the Black Muslims, uh, has assimilated itself into Islam, uh, proper. Uh, Malcolm X made a famous pilgrimage, uh, to Mecca and Medina, and came back with a very different vision about what it meant to be a Muslim, and understood himself to be a part of the large tradition and, and religious culture of Islam that has a global reach. And he, he had a different vision when he came back from that. Some people say that's why he was killed and so on. Um, I don't know. Uh, I certainly find that to be plausible, that he s- became to constitute a threat to the sect, uh, which was the, um, the Black Muslims, and, uh, had to be, had to be dealt with. Uh, I don't know if we'll ever know the full story on that. But anyway, what I'm trying to say is, the Black Muslims were there. Malcolm X was there, and in my experience, uh, they constituted a counterpoint to the position of King, which depended on a kind of respect for the best of the tradition of American democracy, appealing to the better nature of our oppressors, live up to the full meaning of our creed. I mean, these are words that he would use. A magnificent promissory note is what he would think of as the Declaration of Independence and the legacy of, uh, Abraham Lincoln, a unfulfilled ideal. And the Black Muslims were like, "Fuck that. We're gonna take care of our own."
- LFLex Fridman
Mm-hmm.
- GLGlenn Loury
"We, we, we're gonna build our own schools. We're gonna build our own businesses. Uh, w- w- we're, we're not waiting for the white man to do anything. Get your knee off my neck and get out of my way and let me take care of my own." And my uncle respected that. He respected the straight back, the, the, the stand up straight with your shoulders back. That's a Jordan Peterson, but, I mean-
- LFLex Fridman
(laughs)
- GLGlenn Loury
... that was, that was way before Jordan Peterson, but that was his philosophy.
- LFLex Fridman
Yeah.
- GLGlenn Loury
Stand up straight with your ... Raise your children. Don't be depending upon welfare. You taking welfare from the white man? You need to get busy. You need to educate yourself. You need to clean up your act. Put down the fried chicken 'cause it's gonna kill you. He, he... (laughs)
- LFLex Fridman
Hmm.
- GLGlenn Loury
My Uncle Mooney loved this book that Elijah Muhammad, they, they s- they called him The Honorable Elijah Muhammad, was the founder and the leader of the Nation of Islam. Uh, he had a book, and all the book said was, "Be smart. Eat green vegetables. Don't eat fried food. Uh, don't eat pork." They're Muslims. "Don't eat pork, uh, and take responsibility for your diet, and be healthy. And, uh, you know, don't be putting a whole lot of pills into your body. You don't need to do that if you just get control of your diet and you, you know, you eat properly." Now, my uncle loved this idea of responsibility for self and a determination to build. Uh, you know, he, he respected that in the Muslims even if he didn't buy the religious part of it. And so m- and, and, and by the way, when my uncle died, uh, in 1983, he left me a bequest. It wasn't money, unfortunately.
- LFLex Fridman
(laughs)
- GLGlenn Loury
It was his complete collection of the recorded speeches of Malcolm X. And I have, I have these albums. These are 33 and a third LPs. There's six of them. Uh, and I have a complete collection, as best as my uncle could assemble, of the recorded speeches of Malcolm X. Now, why did he do that? He did that because he did not want me to forget, don't be dependent upon the white man. Build your own, stand up straight with your shoulders back, proud Black man. Take care of your business. Take care of your children. Pick up the trash in front of your house. Uh, g- get busy. Th- th- this was this philosophy. Uh, so violence now, that's another story. I mean, Malcolm X would say, you know, uh, "We're gonna defend ourselves. You, you gonna mess with us, you know, you racist, uh, Ku Klux Klan or whatever, we're gonna arm ourselves and we're gonna fight you back. You racist police who are, uh, uh, oppressing and persecuting, uh, and abusing our people, well, you better be ready because we're gonna fight you back." Uh, and that too was the spirit that my uncle, that was a kind of attitude, a kinda posture. My uncle was not a radical. He was, he was a businessman, but he respected this idea, y- you, uh, take your, uh, life in your own hands when you mess with us because we're prepared to defend ourselves.
- LFLex Fridman
So that blood runs in you too.
- GLGlenn Loury
(laughs)
- LFLex Fridman
That thread is ... When you write about Black patriotism, that thread is there too. It's like you embody both the ideal that we're all American, but also that there is this oppressive history. There, there is the powerful that are manipulating you, that are oppressing you, and you can't just wait around for things to fix themselves. You have to take action. You have to take things into your own hands. And sometimes that means being angry. Sometimes that means being violent. That's there too.
- GLGlenn Loury
Yeah, it's there, but, um, here and, and the but is I don't... Me today, Glenn Loury, in 2022 think that that is the answer. I, I don't think that violent rebellion gets us anywhere at the end of the day. I, I think we're past that. Uh, there, there aren't Knight Rider, Ku Klux Klan, uh, people breaking down your door and dragging you away. There are not, uh, nooses throw- thrown over a tree, uh, limb, uh, where you hang somebody from the tree because they whistled at a white woman or they got too much property in your community and you became, you know, they were uppity negroes and whatnot like that. That is a thing of the past in America that the, uh, uh, situation is no longer the one that requires that kind of violent reaction. And that there, there is... If we look at the net effect of the so-called rebellions, um, in American cities, they're negative. Uh, the, the George Floyd protest, which became violent and arsonist in the aftermath of civil disturbance and, uh, whatnot in the summer of 2020, I think set back the program for African Americans. I don't think it advanced it. Um, I, I think there are things to be concerned about. Schools that are not working, uh, police that are, uh, not, not respecting citizens and so forth. But I think that those are things that affect white Americans as well, and that the way that ultimately correct those things is to, uh, make, uh, alliance and, uh, associate oneself with Americans who are concerned to change these things. And I don't think it's properly framed as a racial, um, as a racial problem, and I certainly don't think that, uh, you know, violent rebellion, uh, gets us anywhere. I, I, I'm... You know. I, I get the historical salience of that posture, and it made a lot of sense in the early and the mid-20th century. I don't think it makes very much sense at all in the early 21st century.
- LFLex Fridman
Well, thank you for allowing me for a brief moment to try to channel your Uncle Mooney and maybe Malcolm X in this conversation. (laughs)
- GLGlenn Loury
Right on.
- 1:34:04 – 1:53:21
Joe Rogan controversy
- LFLex Fridman
21st century. You mentioned that, um, in part you're troubled by the term African American. So words are funny things, until they're not. So let me ask you about what I think is one of the most powerful and controversial words in the English language, the N-word.
- GLGlenn Loury
Mm.
- LFLex Fridman
So this is a word that I can't say, that only certain people have the right to say. I have a friend, Joe Rogan-
- GLGlenn Loury
Yeah.
- LFLex Fridman
... who has, um... What would you say? There was mass pushback or highlighting of, of the fact that he didn't just say N-word, but the f- said the full word many times throughout his conversations when referring to, um, in a meta way about the power of words, especially when related to certain comedians using those words. Um-
- GLGlenn Loury
Yeah.
- LFLex Fridman
What do you think about this word? Is it empowering? Is it destructive? What is it? What does it mean for race in America? Um, what does it mean that people like Joe Rogan were, uh, essentially, uh... There's a, an attack to cancel him for using the word. Just as a, as a scholar of human nature, what do you think about this whole thing?
- GLGlenn Loury
It... This is a phenomenon that interests me.
- LFLex Fridman
(laughs)
- GLGlenn Loury
Okay?
- LFLex Fridman
Yes.
- GLGlenn Loury
The N-word (laughs) . Nigger (laughs) . I can say it because I'm Black. But I mean, I can also say it because I like hip hop. And when I listen to hip hop, I hear the word all the time. "These niggers ain't this." You know.
- LFLex Fridman
Uh-huh.
- GLGlenn Loury
"Yeah, watch out for these..." You know, et cetera. Uh, I heard the word constantly as I was growing up, uh, as a boy and a young man in Chicago. "Niggers ain't shit." That was said. That was, you know. The, the... And that could be a reflection of some kind of pathology within the African American community of self-hatred and so forth. It could be. Or it could just be a colloquial linguistic way. I mean, I assume other groups also have, uh, their various... I don't know how the Irish talk about their Irish brothers and, you know, whatever. And, um, I, I don't know how the Jews talk about their Jewish brothers and whatever. But Black people when talking about other Black people use the N-word all the time.
- LFLex Fridman
(laughs)
- GLGlenn Loury
"My nigger."
- LFLex Fridman
Yeah.
- GLGlenn Loury
N-I-G-G-E-R.
- LFLex Fridman
Yeah.
- GLGlenn Loury
You know. "My nigger." Uh, that is a term of endearment.
- LFLex Fridman
Mm-hmm.
- GLGlenn Loury
My friend Randall Kennedy, uh, the law professor at Harvard University has a book called Nigger, and he uses the word in the title of the book. The history of a... Strange history of a, of a provocative word. It's something like... There's a subtitle. But the title of the book is N-I-G-G-E-R colon, and then he, he adds a subtitle. Um, I think, of course, the use of the word as a slur and an insult, which is a part of the history of Black people in the United States, the use of the word by the Southern racist segregationists, "We don't want no niggers up in here. Y'all, you know, niggers, niggers have no place in my restaurant, in my store," et cetera....that's meant to be an insult. It's an insult to people. It's a fighting word. It's a word that you say that to somebody, it's a, it's a invitation for conflict.
- LFLex Fridman
That said, what is it that about this particular word, and also the asymmetry of it, that, do you think it's empowering to the Black community to own a word?
- GLGlenn Loury
I, my, my honest answer to you is I don't know. I don't fully understand it. It has become symbolic in a way. And the policing of the use of the word, I can say it, but white people can't say it. I can say it. I'm not a racist. I'm not a self-hating Black. (laughs) You know, I'm, I'm just speaking the language of colloquial English that has emerged amongst African Americans in which that word plays a big role. But the prohibition on its use by others, and of course, in the Joe Rogan case, it wasn't as if he was calling anybody an N-word. He was simply pointing out that people had said stuff in which the N-word was a part of what they said. Now he did make the statement about, uh, uh, how did he put it? A Planet of the Apes, that one of the offensive things that he said had a, you know, he walked into a room, there was a bunch of Black guys standing around. He says, "It's like Planet of the Apes." And-
- LFLex Fridman
He said it's like Africa Planet of the Apes.
- GLGlenn Loury
Yeah. He should have... Y- and he did apologize for that.
- LFLex Fridman
He should have been a little bit more careful.
- GLGlenn Loury
That that was, that was an insult.
- LFLex Fridman
Yes.
- GLGlenn Loury
Uh, that was, that was, you know, something that, uh, you know, if you say that and people are offended, they have a right to be offended. And if you didn't mean to offend them, you can apologize. And he did apologize. I accept his apology. Joe's okay with me-
Episode duration: 3:32:23
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