Grimes: Music, AI, and the Future of Humanity | Lex Fridman Podcast #281

1. 0:00 – 2:03

   Introduction

   1. GRGrimes0:00

      We are becoming cyborgs. Like, our brains are fundamentally changed. Everyone who grew up with electronics, we are fundamentally different from previous homo sapiens. I call us Homo techno. I- I- I think we have evolved into Homo techno, which is, like, essentially a new species. Previous technologies, I mean, may have even been more profound and moved us to a certain degree, but I think the computers are what make us Homo techno. I think this is what-

   2. LFLex Fridman0:23

      Yeah.

   3. GRGrimes0:24

      ... it's a brain augmentation. And so it, like, allows for actual evolution. Like, the computers accelerate the degree to which all the other technologies can also be accelerated.

   4. LFLex Fridman0:32

      Would you classify yourself as a Homo sapien or a Homo techno?

   5. GRGrimes0:35

      Definitely Homo techno.

   6. LFLex Fridman0:37

      So you're-

   7. GRGrimes0:37

      I think we're all-

   8. LFLex Fridman0:37

      ... you're, you're one of the early s- of the species?

   9. GRGrimes0:40

      I th- I think most of us are.

   10. LFLex Fridman0:45

       The following is a conversation with Grimes, an artist, musician, songwriter, producer, director, and a fascinating human being who thinks a lot about both the history and the future of human civilization, studying the dark periods of our past to help form an optimistic vision of our future. This is the Lex Fridman Podcast. To support it, please check out our sponsors in the description. And now, dear friends, here's Grimes.

   11. GRGrimes1:12

       Oh, yeah, the Cloudlifter. There you go.

   12. LFLex Fridman1:14

       There you go. You know your stuff. Have you ever used a Cloudlifter?

   13. GRGrimes1:18

       Yeah. I actually, this microphone and Cloudlifter is what Michael Jackson used, so.

   14. LFLex Fridman1:23

       No, really?

   15. GRGrimes1:24

       Yeah. This, this is, like, Thriller and stuff.

   16. LFLex Fridman1:26

       This mic?

   17. GRGrimes1:26

       This mic.

   18. LFLex Fridman1:27

       In a Cloudlifter?

   19. GRGrimes1:27

       And that, yeah. It's a, it's a incredible microphone.

   20. LFLex Fridman1:30

       Yes.

   21. GRGrimes1:30

       It's very flattering on vocals. I've used this a lot. It- it- it's great for demo vocals. It's great in a room. Like, it, sometimes it's easier to record vocals if you're just in a room, and, like, the music's playing, and you just want to, like, feel it, and it's not, so it's not in the headphones. And this mic is pretty directional, so I think it's, like, a good mic for, like, just vibing out and just getting a real good vocal take.

   22. LFLex Fridman1:49

       Just vibing?

   23. GRGrimes1:50

       Yeah.

   24. LFLex Fridman1:51

       Just in a room?

   25. GRGrimes1:51

       Anyway, this is the Miche-

   26. LFLex Fridman1:53

       This is the r-

   27. GRGrimes1:54

       ... this is the Michael Jackson/Quincy Jones microphone.

   28. LFLex Fridman1:57

       (inhales) I feel way more badass now. All right.

   29. GRGrimes1:59

       (laughs)

   30. LFLex Fridman1:59

       Let's get in, you want to just get into it?
2. 2:03 – 6:01

   Identity

   1. GRGrimes2:03

   2. LFLex Fridman2:03

      All right. One of your names, at least in this space and time, is C, like the letter C. And, and you told me that C means a lot of things. It's the speed of light, it's the render rate of the universe, it's "yes" in Spanish, it's the crescent moon, and it happens to be my favorite programming language 'cause it's, uh, it basically runs the world. But it's also powerful, fast, and it's dangerous 'cause you can mess things up really bad with it 'cause of all the pointers. But anyway, which of these associations, uh, with the name C is the coolest to you?

   3. GRGrimes2:37

      I mean, to me, the coolest is the speed of light, obviously. Or, well, speed of light, when I say render rate of the universe, I think I mean the speed of light.

   4. LFLex Fridman2:45

      Yeah.

   5. GRGrimes2:46

      Because essentially that's h- what we're rendering at. See, I think we'll know if we're in a simulation if the speed of light changes. Because if they can improve their render speed, then-

   6. LFLex Fridman2:56

      (laughs) Well, it's already pretty good.

   7. GRGrimes2:58

      It's already pretty good. But if it improves, then we'll know, you know, we can probably be like, "Okay, they've updated or upgraded."

   8. LFLex Fridman3:05

      Well, it's fast enough for us humans 'cause it seems, like, um, it seems immediate. There's no delay, there's no latency in terms of, like, us humans on Earth interacting with things. But if you're like a, like, intergalactic species operating on a much larger scale, then you're gonna start noticing some weird stuff. Or if you can operate in, like, around a black hole, then you're gonna start to see some render issues.

   9. GRGrimes3:29

      Well, but, like, you can't go faster than the speed of light, correct? So it really limits our ability, or an- one's ability to travel space.

   10. LFLex Fridman3:36

       Theoretically you can. You have wormholes. So I, there's nothing in general relativity that, uh, precludes faster than, um, the speed of light travel. But it just seems you're gonna have to do some really funky stuff with, uh, very heavy things that have, like, weirdnesses, th- that have, basically tears in spacetime. We don't know how to do that.

   11. GRGrimes3:59

       Dune navigators know how to do it.

   12. LFLex Fridman4:02

       Dune navigators?

   13. GRGrimes4:03

       Yeah.

   14. LFLex Fridman4:03

       Yeah.

   15. GRGrimes4:03

       Folding space.

   16. LFLex Fridman4:05

       I think that-

   17. GRGrimes4:05

       Basically making wormholes.

   18. LFLex Fridman4:07

       So the name C?

   19. GRGrimes4:09

       Yes.

   20. LFLex Fridman4:12

       Who are you?

   21. GRGrimes4:14

       (laughs)

   22. LFLex Fridman4:14

       Are you, are you, do you think of yourself as multiple people? Are you one person? Do you know? Like, in the, this morning, were you a different person than you are tonight? We are, I should say, recording this basically at midnight, which is awesome.

   23. GRGrimes4:27

       Yes. Thank you so much. I think I'm about eight hours late.

   24. LFLex Fridman4:31

       No. You're right on time. Good morning. This is the beginning of a new day soon. Anyway, uh, are you the same person you were in the morning, in the evening? Do you, you're, you're, is there multiple people in there? Do you think of yourself as one person? Or maybe you have no clue? Are you just a giant mystery to yourself?

   25. GRGrimes4:50

       Okay. These are really intense questions. But, uh ... (laughs)

   26. LFLex Fridman4:52

       Let's go. Let's go. 'Cause I ask this to myself. Like, look in the mirror. Who are you? People tell you to just be yourself. But what does that even mean?

   27. GRGrimes4:59

       Uh, I mean, I think my personality changes with everyone I talk to. So I, I have a very inconsistent personality. Yeah.

   28. LFLex Fridman5:07

       Person to person? So the interaction, your personality materializes who-

   29. GRGrimes5:11

       Or, or, or my mood. Like, I'll, I'll go from being, like, a megalomaniac to being, like, you know, just, like, a total hermit who is very shy.

   30. LFLex Fridman5:21

       So some combinatorial com- combination of your mood and the person you're interacting with.
3. 6:01 – 18:52

   Music production

   1. LFLex Fridman6:02

      you've talked about constraints and limits. Uh, do those help you out as an artist or as a human being, or do they get in the way? Do you like the constraints, so in creating music, in creating art, and living life?

   2. GRGrimes6:15

      (inhales deeply)

   3. LFLex Fridman6:16

      Do you like the constraints that this world puts on you (sighs) or do you hate them?

   4. GRGrimes6:24

      If constraints are moving then you're good. Right?

   5. LFLex Fridman6:29

      Mm-hmm.

   6. GRGrimes6:29

      Like, it's like, it's like as we are progressing with technology, we're changing the constraints of, like, artistic creation. You know, um, making video and music and stuff is ge- is getting a lot cheaper. There's constantly new technology and new software that's making it faster and easier. We have so much more freedom than we had in the '70s. Like, when Michael Jackson, you know, when they recorded Thriller with this microphone, like, they had to use a mixing desk and all this stuff. And, like, probably even get into studio is probably really expensive, and you have to be a really good singer, and you have to know how to use the, like, the mixing desk and everything. And now I, I can just, you know, make... I've made a whole album on this computer.

   7. LFLex Fridman7:04

      Mm-hmm.

   8. GRGrimes7:05

      I have a lot more freedom, but then I'm also constrained in different ways 'cause there's, like, literally millions more artists. It, it's, like, a much bigger playing field. It's just, like, I also... I didn't learn music. I'm not a natural musician, so I, I don't know anything about actual music. I just know about, like, the computer. So, I'm really kind of just, like, messing around and, like, trying things out.

   9. LFLex Fridman7:33

      Well, yeah, I mean, but the nature of music is changing. So, you're saying you don't know actual music. Well, music is changing. Music is becoming... You, you've talked about this. It's becoming... It's, like, uh, merging with technology.

   10. GRGrimes7:46

       Yes.

   11. LFLex Fridman7:47

       It's becoming something more than just, like, the notes on a piano. It's becoming some weird composition that requires engineering skills, programming skills, some kind of, uh, human/robot interaction skills, and still some of the same things that Michael Jackson had, which is, like, a good ear for... a good sense of taste of what's good and not, the final thing when it's put together. Like, you're allowed... you're enabled, empowered with a laptop to layer stuff, to start, like, layering insane amounts of stuff, and it's super easy to do that.

   12. GRGrimes8:22

       I do think music production is a really underrated art form. I feel, I feel like people really don't appreciate it. When I look at publishing splits, the way that people, um, like, pay producers and stuff, uh, it's, it's super... Like, producers are just deeply underrated. Like, so many of the songs that are popular right now or for the last 20 years, like, part of the reason they're popular is 'cause the production is really interesting or really sick or really cool. And it's, like, I don't think listeners, um... like, people just don't really understand what music production is. It's not... it, it's sort of like this weird discombobulated art form. It's not like a formal... because it's so new, there isn't, like, a formal training path for it. It's, it's, um, mostly driven by, like, autodidacts. Like, it's, like, almost everyone I know who's good at production, like, they didn't go to music sch- school or anything. They just taught themselves.

   13. LFLex Fridman9:15

       Are they're mostly different? Like, the music producers you know, is there some commonalities that tie them together? Or are they all just d- different kinds of weirdos? Because I just, I just hung out with Rick Rubin. I don't know if you've-

   14. GRGrimes9:26

       Yeah, l- uh, l- I mean, Rick Rubin is, like, literally one of the gods of music production. Like, he's one of the people who first, you know, who, like, made music production, you know... made the production as important as the actual lyrics or the notes.

   15. LFLex Fridman9:41

       But the thing he does, which is interesting, I don't know if you can speak to that, but just hanging out with him, he seems to just sit there in silence, close his eyes, and listen. It's like he almost does nothing (laughs) and that nothing somehow gives you freedom to be the best version of yourself. So, that's music production somehow too, which is, like, encouraging you to do less, to simplify, to, like, push towards minimalism.

   16. GRGrimes10:06

       I mean, I guess, I mean, I work differently from Rick Rubin because Rick, Rick Rubin produces for other artists, whereas, like, I mostly produce for myself.

   17. LFLex Fridman10:16

       Yeah.

   18. GRGrimes10:17

       So, it's a very different situation. Um, I also think Rick Rubin, he's, he's in that, I would say, advanced category of producer where, like, you've, like, earned your... you, you can have an engineer and stuff, and people, like, do the stuff for you.

   19. LFLex Fridman10:29

       Yeah.

   20. GRGrimes10:29

       But, um, I, I usually just, like, do stuff myself.

   21. LFLex Fridman10:32

       So, you're the engineer, the producer, and the, the, the artist?

   22. GRGrimes10:38

       Yeah, I guess I would say I, I'm in the era, like, the post-Rick Rubin era. Like, I come from the kind of, like, um, Skrillex school of thought, which is, like, uh, where you're- you are, yeah, the engineer-producer-artist. Like, where... um, I mean, lately, sometimes I'll, I'll work with a producer now. I'm gently, sort of delicately starting to collaborate a bit more. But, like, uh, I think I'm kind of from the, like, the, whatever 2010s explosion of things where, um, you know, everything became available on the computer, and you kind of got this, like, lone wizard energy thing going.

   23. LFLex Fridman11:16

       So, do... you embrace being the loneliness? Is the loneliness somehow an engine of creativity? Like, uh, so most of your stuff, most of your creative, quote-unquote, genius, in, in quotes, is in the privacy of your mind?

   24. GRGrimes11:32

       Yes. Or, well, it was. Um, but here's the thing. I, I was talking to Daniel Ek, and he said... he's like, "Most artists, they have about 10 years, like, 10, 10 good years. Um, and then they usually stop making their, like, vital shit." Um, and I feel like I'm sort of, like, nearing the end of my 10 years on my own. And, um-

   25. LFLex Fridman11:57

       So, you have to become somebody else.

   26. GRGrimes11:58

       Now, I'm, like, I'm in the process of becoming some- somebody else and reinventing. When I work with other people, because I've never worked with other people, I find that I make, like, that I'm exceptionally rejuvenated and making, like, some of the most vital work I've ever made. So-... because I think another human brain is, like, one of the best, um, tools you can possibly find. Um, like l-

   27. LFLex Fridman12:18

       It's a, it's a funny way to put it. I love it.

   28. GRGrimes12:20

       It's a... It's like i- if a tool is, like, you know, whatever, HP plus one, or, like, adds some, like, stats to your character-

   29. LFLex Fridman12:29

       Yeah.

   30. GRGrimes12:29

       ... like, another human brain will, like, square it instead of just-
4. 18:52 – 23:34

   Spotify

   1. GRGrimes18:52

   2. LFLex Fridman18:52

      Ah, you mentioned Daniel Ek and Spotify. Um, what do you think about that as an artist? What's, what's Spotify? Is that empowering? Like, i- to me, Spotify

   3. NANarrator19:00

      (music)

   4. LFLex Fridman19:00

      ... sort of as a consumer is super exciting. It makes it easy for me to access music from all kinds of artists, get to explore all kinds of music, make it super easy to sort of, uh, curate my own playlists and have fun with all that. It was so liberating to let go. You know, I used to collect, you know, albums and CDs and so on, like, like, uh, like hoard albums. (laughs)

   5. GRGrimes19:22

      Yeah.

   6. LFLex Fridman19:22

      Like they matter.

   7. GRGrimes19:23

      Yeah.

   8. LFLex Fridman19:23

      But the reality, you can, i- you know, that was really liberating that I could let go of that. And letting go of the albums you're kind of collecting allows you to find new music, explore n- new artists and all that kinda stuff. But I know from a perspective of an artist, that could be, like you mentioned, competition could be a kind of constraint, 'cause there's more and more and more artists-

   9. GRGrimes19:44

      I-

   10. LFLex Fridman19:44

       ... on the, on the platform.

   11. GRGrimes19:46

       ... I think it's better that there's more artists. I mean, again, this might be propaganda 'cause this is all from a conversation with Daniel Ek, so this could easily be propaganda.

   12. LFLex Fridman19:53

       Yes.

   13. GRGrimes19:54

       Dude, like-

   14. LFLex Fridman19:54

       We're all a victim of somebody's propaganda, so let's just-

   15. GRGrimes19:57

       Yeah.

   16. LFLex Fridman19:57

       ... accept this. (laughs)

   17. GRGrimes19:58

       (laughs) But Daniel Ek was telling me that, uh, you know, at the, 'cause I, you know, when, when I met him, I, like, I wa- I came in all furious about Spotify.

   18. LFLex Fridman20:06

       Sure.

   19. GRGrimes20:06

       And, like, I grilled him super hard.

   20. LFLex Fridman20:07

       Okay.

   21. GRGrimes20:07

       So, I've got his, his, um, answers here. (laughs)

   22. LFLex Fridman20:10

       (laughs)

   23. GRGrimes20:10

       But, um, uh, he was saying, like, at the, the sort of peak of the CD industry, there was, like, 20,000 artists making millions and millions of dol- dollars. Like, there was just, like, a very tiny kinda 1%. Um, and Spotify has kind of democratized, uh, the industry, um, because now, I think he said there's about a million artists making a good living from Spotify.

   24. LFLex Fridman20:32

       Yeah.

   25. GRGrimes20:33

       And when I heard that, I was like, "Honestly, I would rather make less money and have just, like, a decent living, um, than, and have more artists be able to have that." Even though I, like, I wish it could include everyone, but-

   26. LFLex Fridman20:49

       Yeah, that's really hard to argue with. YouTube is the same. Is you- YouTube's mission, they wanna basically have as many creators as possible make a living, some kind of living.

   27. GRGrimes21:00

       Yeah.

   28. LFLex Fridman21:00

       And that, that's so hard to argue with. Like-

   29. GRGrimes21:02

       It's so ha- But I think there's better ways to do it. My manager, I actually wish he was here, I, like, I wo- would've brought him up. But my manager is, um, building an app that, um, can manage you. So, it'll, like, help you organize your percentages and, um, get your publishing and da-da-da-da-da, so you can take out all the middlemen, so you can have a much bi- bigger, it'll just, like, automate it, um, so you can get-

   30. LFLex Fridman21:23

       So, automate the manager?
5. 23:34 – 26:09

   Experimental music

   1. LFLex Fridman23:34

   2. GRGrimes23:34

      Yeah.

   3. LFLex Fridman23:34

      Let me ask you about experimentation. So, you said, which is beautiful, uh, being a musician is like having a conversation with all those that came before you. Um, how much of, uh, creating music is like, uh, kind of having that conversation, trying to fit in to the cultural, uh, trends? And how much of it is, like, trying to, as much as possible, be an outsider and come up with something totally new? So, like, when you're thinking, when you're experimenting, are you trying to be totally different, totally weird, or are you trying to, um, fit in?

   4. GRGrimes24:12

      Man, this is so hard, 'cause I feel like I'm kind of in the process of semi-retiring from music, so I'm, this is like my old brain.

   5. LFLex Fridman24:18

      Yeah. Well, bring it back, like, uh-

   6. GRGrimes24:20

      Bring my old brain back.

   7. LFLex Fridman24:20

      ... bri- bring it from, like, the shelf, put it on the table for, for a couple minutes. We'll just, we'll just poke it.

   8. GRGrimes24:26

      I think it's a bit of both, because I think, uh-Forcing yourself to engage with new music, um, is really great for neural plasticity. Like, I think, uh, you know, as people... Part of the reason music is marketed at young people is because young people are very neural plastic.

   9. LFLex Fridman24:43

      Mm-hmm.

   10. GRGrimes24:43

       So, um, like, if you're 16 to like 23 or whatever, you're, it's gonna be really easy for you to love new music. And if you're older than that, it gets harder and harder and harder. And I think one of the beautiful things about being a musician is, I just constantly force myself to listen to new music, and I think it keeps my brain really plastic. Um, and I think this is a really good exercise. I just think everyone should do this. You listen to new music and you hate it, I think you should just keep, force yourself to, like, "Okay, well, why do people like it?" And like, you know, make your brain form new neural pathways, and, uh, be more open to change.

   11. LFLex Fridman25:16

       That's really brilliant, actually. Sorry to interrupt. But, like, that, that exercise is r- is really amazing to sort of embrace change, embrace, sort of practice, uh, neuroplasticity. Because, like, that's one of the things. You, you fall in love with a certain band and you just kind of stay with that for the rest of your life.

   12. GRGrimes25:36

       Yeah.

   13. LFLex Fridman25:36

       And then you never understand the modern music. That's a really good exercise.

   14. GRGrimes25:39

       Most of the streaming on Spotify is, like, classic rock and stuff.

   15. LFLex Fridman25:42

       (laughs)

   16. GRGrimes25:42

       Like, new music makes up a very small chunk of-

   17. LFLex Fridman25:45

       Yeah.

   18. GRGrimes25:45

       ... what is played on Spotify. And I think this is, like, not a good sign for us as a species. I, I think, uh, yeah. I-

   19. LFLex Fridman25:53

       So, it's a, it's a good measure of the, the species' open-mindedness to change, is how often you listen to new music.

   20. GRGrimes26:00

       Yeah. (laughs)

   21. LFLex Fridman26:01

       The brain, the brain, let's put the, the, the, the, the music brain on the, back on the shelf. I gotta pull out the f- futurist brain for a second.

6. 26:09 – 38:42

   Vision of future

   1. LFLex Fridman26:09

      Uh, in what wild ways do you think the future, say in like 30 years, maybe 50 years, maybe 100 years, will be different, um, from, like, from our current way of life on Earth? We can talk about augmented reality, virtual reality, maybe robots, maybe space travel, maybe video games, maybe genetic engineering. I can keep going. Cyborgs, aliens, world wars, maybe destructive nuclear wars, good and the bad.

   2. GRGrimes26:39

      Um-

   3. LFLex Fridman26:40

      What, when you think about the future, what are you imagining? What's the weirdest and wildest it could be?

   4. GRGrimes26:47

      Have you read Surface Detail by Iain Banks? Uh, Surface Detail is my favorite depiction of a s- Oh, wow, you have to read this book.

   5. LFLex Fridman26:56

      (laughs)

   6. GRGrimes26:56

      It's literally the greatest science fiction book possibly ever written.

   7. LFLex Fridman26:59

      Iain Banks is the man, yeah, for sure, for sure.

   8. GRGrimes27:01

      Ever written. Wai- what have you read?

   9. LFLex Fridman27:02

      Uh, just The Play of Games.

   10. GRGrimes27:04

       I, I read that, um, titles can't be copyrighted, so, you can just steal them. And I was like, "Play of Games, sick."

   11. LFLex Fridman27:10

       Nice.

   12. GRGrimes27:10

       Yeah. So, you can name your album... Like, I always wanted to-

   13. LFLex Fridman27:13

       Romeo and Juliet, or something?

   14. GRGrimes27:15

       I always, I always wanted to name an album War and Peace.

   15. LFLex Fridman27:17

       Nice.

   16. GRGrimes27:17

       Like, that would be, like, you-

   17. LFLex Fridman27:18

       That is a good, that's a good, uh, where have I heard that before?

   18. GRGrimes27:21

       You can do that. Like, you could do that. Um-

   19. LFLex Fridman27:24

       (laughs)

   20. GRGrimes27:24

       ... also things that are in the public domain.

   21. LFLex Fridman27:26

       For people who have no clue, you do have a song called Play of Games.

   22. GRGrimes27:29

       Yes. Oh, yeah. So, Iain Banks' Surface Detail is, in my opinion, the best future that I've ever read about or heard about in science fiction. Um, basically, there's, uh, the relationship with superintelligence, um, like, artificial superintelligence, is just, it's like great. Um, I want, I want to credit the person who coined this term, because I love this term. And, and I feel like young women don't get enough credit in, um... Yeah, so if you go to Protopia Futures on Instagram... What is her name?

   23. LFLex Fridman28:05

       Personalized Donor Experience at Scale: Our AI-Powered Donor Experience.

   24. GRGrimes28:09

       Monica ... Bielskyte. I'm saying that wrong. Um, and I'm probably gonna, I'm probably butchering this a bit, but Protopia is sort of, if utopia is unattainable, Protopia is sort of like, um, you know-

   25. LFLex Fridman28:26

       Wow, that's an awesome Instagram, Protopia Futures.

   26. GRGrimes28:28

       ... a, a great, a future that is, you know, as good as we can get.

   27. LFLex Fridman28:33

       The future, positive future. Hey, is this a centralized AI in the surf- in Surface Detail, or is it distributed? What kind of AI is it?

   28. GRGrimes28:40

       Um, they mostly exist as giant super ships, like, sort of like the, um-

   29. LFLex Fridman28:44

       (laughs)

   30. GRGrimes28:44

       ... guild ships in Dune. Like, they're these giant ships that kind of, kind of move people around. And the ships are sentient, and, um, they can talk to all the passengers. And, uh, I mean, there's a lot of different types of AI in the Banksian future. But, um, in the opening scene of Surface Detail, there's this place called The Culture, and The Culture is basically a Protopian future. And a Proto- a Protopian future, I think, is like a future that is like, obviously it's not per- it's not utopia, it's not perfect, and like, 'cause like striving for utopia, I think, feels hopeless, and, and it's sort of like maybe not the best terminology to be using. Um, so, it's like, it's a pretty good place.
7. 38:42 – 54:50

   Motherhood

   1. GRGrimes38:42

      for example, you know, we were talking about motherhood, like part of the reason I'm so late is because I had to get the baby to bed-

   2. LFLex Fridman38:46

      Mm-hmm.

   3. GRGrimes38:46

      Um, and it's like, I keep thinking about motherhood, how, um, under capitalism, it's like this extremely essential job that is very difficult, that is not compensated. And we sort of like value things by h- by how much we compensate them. And so we really devalue motherhood in our society, in pretty much all societies. Like, capitalism does not recognize motherhood. It's just a job that you're supposed to do for free. Um, and it's like, but I- I feel like producing great humans should be seen as a great, as a, as profit under capitalism. Like, that should be, that's like a huge social good. Like, every awesome human that gets made adds so much to the world. So, like, if that was integrated into the profit structure, then, um, you know, and if we potentially found a way to compensate motherhood.

   4. LFLex Fridman39:35

      So, come up with a compensation that's much broader than just money or p-

   5. GRGrimes39:40

      Or i- or could- or could just be money, like what if you just made... I don't know. But I- but I don't know how you'd pay for that. Like, I- I mean, that's where you start getting into...

   6. LFLex Fridman39:52

      Reallocation of resources that people get, uh, upset over.

   7. GRGrimes39:56

      But, like, what if we made, like, a motherhood DAO? (laughs)

   8. LFLex Fridman39:59

      (laughs) Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

   9. GRGrimes40:01

      You know, and- and- and, um, you know, used it to fund, like, single mothers, like, you know, pay for making babies.

   10. LFLex Fridman40:13

       So, I mean, if you create and put beautiful things out into the world, that could be companies, that can be bridges, that could be art, that could be a lot of things, and that could be children, uh, which are...

   11. GRGrimes40:28

       Or education or...

   12. LFLex Fridman40:29

       Anything. That could, that should be valued by society, and that should be somehow incorporated into the framework of what a s- as a market of what... Like, if you contribute children to this world, that should be valued and respected and, uh, sort of celebrated, like, proportional to what it is, which is it's- it's the thing that fuels human civilization.

   13. GRGrimes40:51

       Yeah, like, I c-

   14. LFLex Fridman40:52

       It's kind of important. (laughs)

   15. GRGrimes40:53

       I- I feel like everyone's always saying... I mean, I think we're in very different social spheres. But everyone's always saying, like, "Dismantle capitalism." And I'm like, "Well, okay, well, I don't think the government should own everything." Like, I- I don't think we should not have private ownership. Like, that's scary. You know, like, that starts getting into weird stuff. And just sort of like, I feel there's almost no way to do that without a police state, you know?

   16. LFLex Fridman41:12

       Yeah.

   17. GRGrimes41:12

       Um, but obviously capitalism has some major flaws. Um, and I think actually Mac, uh, intro- showed me this idea called social capitalism, which is a form of capitalism that just, like, considers social good to be, uh, also profit. Like, you know, it's like right now, companies need to... Like, you're supposed to grow every quarter or whatever, to, like, show that you're e- uh, functioning well. But it's like, okay, well, what if you kept the same amount of profit, you're still in the green, but then you have also all this social good. Like, do you really need all this extra economic growth? Or could you add this social good and that counts? And, you know, I- I don't know if... I- I am not an economist. I have no idea how this could be achieved, but it's...

   18. LFLex Fridman41:56

       I don't think economists know how anything could be achieved either-

   19. GRGrimes41:59

       (laughs)

   20. LFLex Fridman41:59

       ... but they pretend. That's the thing. They construct a model, and they, they go on TV shows and sound like an expert. Uh, that's the definition of an economist. Um, how did being a mother, becoming a mother change you as a human being, would you say?

   21. GRGrimes42:16

       Man, I th- I think it kind of changed everything, and it's still changing me a lot. It's actually changing me more right now in this moment than it was before.

   22. LFLex Fridman42:26

       Like today? Like this...

   23. GRGrimes42:28

       Just, like, in the l- most recent months and stuff.

   24. LFLex Fridman42:33

       C- can you elucidate that h- how change... Like, when you wake up in the morning, and you look at yourself, it's again, which, who are you?

   25. GRGrimes42:42

       Um...

   26. LFLex Fridman42:43

       How have you become different, would you say?

   27. GRGrimes42:45

       I think it's just really reorienting my priorities. And at first, I was really fighting against that, because I somehow felt it was, like, a failure of feminism or something. Like, I felt like it was, like, bad if, like, my kids started mattering more than my work. Um, and- and then, like, more recently, I started sort of analyzing that, uh, thought in myself, and being like, "That's also kind of a construct." It's like, we've just devalued motherhood so much in our culture that, like, I feel guilty for caring about my kids more than I care about my work.

   28. LFLex Fridman43:23

       So, feminism includes breaking out of whatever the construct is. So-

   29. GRGrimes43:28

       Yeah.

   30. LFLex Fridman43:29

       ... just continually breaking... It's like, freedom, empower you to be free, and that means, uh-
8. 54:50 – 1:09:40

   Consciousness

   1. LFLex Fridman54:50

      you mentioned Baby X. Um, so there's this young consciousness coming to be, came from a cell, like-... like, that whole thing doesn't even make se- ... It came from DNA.

   2. GRGrimes55:02

      Yeah. (laughs)

   3. LFLex Fridman55:03

      And then there's this baby computer that just, like, grows and grows and grows and grows, and now there's a conscious being with extremely impressive cognitive capabilities, with, uh, I don't know-

   4. GRGrimes55:13

      Have you met him?

   5. LFLex Fridman55:14

      Yes, yeah.

   6. GRGrimes55:15

      Yeah.

   7. LFLex Fridman55:15

      Yeah. He's actually really smart. Uh-

   8. GRGrimes55:17

      He's really smart. Yeah.

   9. LFLex Fridman55:18

      It's wei- weird. (laughs)

   10. GRGrimes55:19

       Yeah.

   11. LFLex Fridman55:20

       For a baby.

   12. GRGrimes55:20

       He does-

   13. LFLex Fridman55:20

       I don't, I, I, I haven't-

   14. GRGrimes55:22

       I don't know a lot of other babies, but he seems really smart.

   15. LFLex Fridman55:24

       Exactly. I don't hang out with babies often, but this baby was very impressive.

   16. GRGrimes55:26

       He does a lot of pranks and stuff.

   17. LFLex Fridman55:29

       Oh, so he's like, uh-

   18. GRGrimes55:29

       Like, he'll, like, he'll, like, give you a treat and then take it away and laugh and, like, stuff like that.

   19. LFLex Fridman55:33

       So, he's like a chess player. Uh, so here- here's a cognitive sort of ... Like, there's a computer being programmed. So, he, he's taken in the environment, interacting with a specific set of humans. Uh, how would you ... First of all, what, what is it? What ... Let me ask. I want to ask, how do you program this computer? And also, how do you make sense of that there's a conscious being right there-

   20. GRGrimes55:57

       Um.

   21. LFLex Fridman55:58

       ... that wasn't there before?

   22. GRGrimes55:59

       It's giving me a lot of crisis thoughts. I'm, I'm thinking, thinking really hard. I think that's part of the reason. It's like I'm struggling to focus on art and stuff right now 'cause Baby X is becoming conscious. And like my ... It's just reorienting my brain. Like, my brain is suddenly totally shifting of like, "Oh, shit." Like, the way we-

   23. LFLex Fridman56:17

       (laughs)

   24. GRGrimes56:17

       ... raise children, like, like, I hate a- all the baby books and everything. I hate them. Like they're, ugh. The art is so bad. And like, like all the stuff, uh, everything about all the aesthetics and s- ... Like, I'm just like, "Aah," like, "this is so ..."

   25. LFLex Fridman56:33

       The programming languages we're using to program these baby computers isn't good.

   26. GRGrimes56:37

       Y- yeah. Like, I, and, and I'm thinking, and I, I, not that I have, like, good answers or know what to do-

   27. LFLex Fridman56:42

       Yeah.

   28. GRGrimes56:42

       ... know what to do, but, um-

   29. LFLex Fridman56:43

       (laughs)

   30. GRGrimes56:44

       ... I'm just thinking really, really hard about it. I, uh, we, we recently watched, uh, Totoro with him.
9. 1:09:40 – 1:15:31

   Love

   1. GRGrimes1:09:40

   2. LFLex Fridman1:09:40

      What do you think is the role of love in the human condition?

   3. GRGrimes1:09:45

      I th-

   4. LFLex Fridman1:09:46

      Why? Is it useful? Is it a useful, like, uh, hack? Or is, is this, it's like fundamental to what it means to be human, the capacity to love?

   5. GRGrimes1:09:55

      I mean, I think love is the evolutionary mechanism that is like beginning the intelligent design. Like, I was just reading about, uh, do you know about Kropot- Kropotkin? He's like an anarchist, like old Russian anarchist.

   6. LFLex Fridman1:10:09

      I live next door to, uh, Michael Malice. I don't know if you know who that is. He's an anarchist. He's a modern day anarchist.

   7. GRGrimes1:10:14

      Okay.

   8. LFLex Fridman1:10:14

      Anarchists are fun.

   9. GRGrimes1:10:15

      I'm kinda getting into anarchism a little bit. This is probably, yeah, not a good route-

   10. LFLex Fridman1:10:21

       I, I thi- (laughs)

   11. GRGrimes1:10:21

       ... to be taking, but... (laughs)

   12. LFLex Fridman1:10:22

       Oh, no. I, I think if you're... Listen, you ha- you should expose yourself to ideas. Uh, there's no harm to thinking about ideas. I think anarchists challenge systems in, in interesting ways, and they think in, uh, interesting ways. It's just, it's good for the soul. It, like, refreshes your-

   13. GRGrimes1:10:36

       Yes.

   14. LFLex Fridman1:10:36

       ... mental palette.

   15. GRGrimes1:10:37

       I don't think we should actually... I, I, I wouldn't actually ascribe to it, but I, I've never actually gone deep on, on anarchy as a philosophy, so I'm doing-

   16. LFLex Fridman1:10:44

       You still think about it, though.

   17. GRGrimes1:10:45

       Like, when you rea- when you lis-... 'Cause I'm, like, reading about the Russian Revolution a lot, and it's like, there was like the Soviets, and Lenin, all that. But then there was like Kropotkin and his, like, anarchist sect. And they were sort of interesting, 'cause he was kind of a technocrat, actually. Like, he was like, you know, like, "Women can be more equal if we have appliances." Like, he was, like, really into, like, um, you know, using technology to, like, reduce the amount of work people had to do.

   18. LFLex Fridman1:11:07

       Mm-hmm.

   19. GRGrimes1:11:07

       But, so Krop- Kropotkin was a, like a biologist or something. Like, he studied animals. Um, and he was re- really, at the time, like, uh, I think it's Nature magazine. I th- I think it might've even started as, like, a Russian magazine. But he was, like publishing studies. Like, everyone was really into, like, Darwinism at the time, and like, survival of the fittest, and like, "War is, like, the mechanism by which we become better." And it was like this real, kind of like, like propo- like, cementing this idea in society that, like, violence, uh, you know, kill the weak, and, like, that's how we become better. And then Kro- Kropotkin was kinda interesting, 'cause he was looking at, um, instances. He was finding all these instances in nature where animals were, like, helping each other and stuff. Um, and he was like, "You know, actually, love is a survival mechanism." Like, there's so many, uh, i- instances in the animal kingdom where, like, cooperation and, you know, like, helping weaker creatures, and all this stuff, is actually, um, an evolutionary mechanism. I mean, you even look at child rearing. Like, child rearing is, like, immense amounts of just love, and goodwill, and just like, there's no immediate... Um, you're, there, you're, you know, you're not getting a- any immediate feedback of like, e- e- winning. It's not competitive. It's literally, it's, uh, you know, it's like we actually use love as an e- evolutionary mechanism just as much as we use war. And I, I think we've like, missing the other part, and we've reoriented, we've culturally reoriented. Like, science and philosophy has re- has oriented itself around Darwinism a little bit too much. And the Kropotkin model, um, I think is equally valid. Like, it's like cooperation, and, um, uh, and love, and stuff is just as essential for, uh, spe- species' survival and evolution.

   20. LFLex Fridman1:12:59

       Yeah. It could be a more powerful survival mechanism, uh, in the context of evolution, right?

   21. GRGrimes1:13:02

       Oh, and it, and it, and it comes back to like, you know, we think engineering is so much more important than motherhood.

   22. LFLex Fridman1:13:07

       Yeah.

   23. GRGrimes1:13:07

       But it's like-If you lose the motherhood, the engineering means nothing, we have no more humans. Like, it's like, uh, uh, y- you know, it's like we ... W- I, I think our society should ... The survival of the fitt- the, the way we see, we conceptualize evolution should really change to also include this idea, I guess.

   24. LFLex Fridman1:13:27

       Yeah. There, there is some weird thing that seems irrational that s- see- is also core to what it means to be human. So, um, love is one such thing. It could, it could make you do a lot of irrational things, but that depth of connection and that loyalty is a powerful thing. There's th-

   25. GRGrimes1:13:47

       Are they irrational or are they rational? Like, it's like, it's like, is, uh, y- you know, maybe i- lo- uh, losing out on some things in order to, like, keep your family together, or in order ... Uh, like, it, it's like, what are our actual values like?

   26. LFLex Fridman1:14:06

       Well, right. I mean, the irrational thing is if you have a cold economist perspective, you know, motherhood or sacrificing your career for love, you know, i- in sh- term- in terms of salary, in terms of economic well-being, in terms of flourishing of you as a human being, that could be seen on, on some kind of metrics as a irrational decision, suboptimal decision. But there's the manifestation of love. It could, could be the optimal thing to do. There's a kind of saying, "Save one life, save the world." The, this is a thing that doctors often face, which is like ...

   27. GRGrimes1:14:44

       Well, it's considered irrational because the profit model doesn't include social good.

   28. LFLex Fridman1:14:47

       Yes. Yeah. And, but a Claudia-

   29. GRGrimes1:14:48

       So, if a profit model included social good, then suddenly these would be rational decisions.

   30. LFLex Fridman1:14:51

       And this might be difficult to ... Mm. You know, it requires a shift in our thinking about profit, and might be difficult to measure social good.
10. 1:15:31 – 1:28:13

    Metaverse

    1. LFLex Fridman1:15:31

       Um, but as more and more of us are moving to digital space ... I wanted to ask you about something. From a fan perspective, I kind of, you know ... You as a musician, you as an online personality, it seems like you have all these identities and you play with them. Um, one of the cool things about the internet, it seems like you can play with identities. So, as we move into the digital world more and more, maybe even in the, in the so-called Metaverse ...

    2. GRGrimes1:15:59

       I mean, I love the Metaverse and I love the idea, but, like, the way this has all played out didn't, didn't go well, and people are mad about it. And I think I, I think we need to, like-

    3. LFLex Fridman1:16:12

       I think that's temporary.

    4. GRGrimes1:16:13

       I think it's temporary.

    5. LFLex Fridman1:16:14

       Just like, you know how all the celebrities got together and sang the song Imagine by John Lennon (laughs) and everyone started hating the song Imagine? I'm hoping that's temporary, 'cause it's a damn good song. (laughs)

    6. GRGrimes1:16:23

       Yeah. (laughs) Yeah.

    7. LFLex Fridman1:16:24

       So, I think it's just temporary. Like, when you a- once you actually have virtual worlds, whatever they're called, Metaverse or otherwise, this becomes ... I don't know.

    8. GRGrimes1:16:31

       Well, we do have virtual worlds, like video games.

    9. LFLex Fridman1:16:33

       Yeah.

    10. GRGrimes1:16:33

        Elden Ring. Have you played Elden Ring? You haven't played Elden Ring?

    11. LFLex Fridman1:16:35

        I'm really afraid of playing that game.

    12. GRGrimes1:16:38

        Literally, I'm paid

    13. NANarrator1:16:39

        (laughs)

    14. LFLex Fridman1:16:39

        It looks way too fun. It way, look, it looks I would wanna go there and stay there forever.

    15. GRGrimes1:16:45

        It's, yeah, so fun. It's so-

    16. LFLex Fridman1:16:47

        (laughs)

    17. GRGrimes1:16:48

        It's so nice. Um ...

    18. LFLex Fridman1:16:50

        Oh, man. Yeah. So, that, that's th- yeah, that's a Metaverse. That's a Metaverse. But you're not really ... It's, how immersive is it? I- in a sense that, um, does the three dimension, like, virtual reality integration necessary? Can we really just take our, close our eyes and kind of plug in in the 2D screen and become that other being for a time and really enjoy that journey that we take? And we almost become that. You're no longer C, I'm no longer Lex. You're that creature, whatever, whatever the hell it is in that game. Yeah, that is that. I mean, that's why I love those v- video games. It's an, it's a ... I really do become those people for a time. But, like, it seems like with the m- the idea of the Metaverse or the idea of the digital space ... With even on Twitter, you get a chance to be somebody for prolonged periods of time, like, across a lifespan. You know, you have a Twitter account for years, for decades, and you're that person.

Episode duration: 2:04:58