Lex Fridman PodcastHikaru Nakamura: Chess, Magnus, Kasparov, and the Psychology of Greatness | Lex Fridman Podcast #330
EVERY SPOKEN WORD
150 min read · 30,007 words- 0:00 – 1:41
Introduction
- LFLex Fridman
You and Magnus played a private game, 40 games of blitz in 2010 in Moscow at a hotel. This sounds and just feels legendary.
- HNHikaru Nakamura
The reason that I probably should not have agreed to play this match and why I very oftentimes reference it as one of the biggest mistakes in terms of competitive chess that I made, is specifically because it gave Magnus a chance to understand my style of chess.
- LFLex Fridman
Are you and Magnus, uh, friends, enemies, frenemies? Um, what, what's the status of, of the relationship?
- HNHikaru Nakamura
Yeah, I think with all the rivalries in chess, everybody tries to hype it up like everyone hates each other, but the thing is, at the end of the day, yes, we're very competitive. We want to beat each other, whether it's myself or Magnus or, or other, other top players, but we also realize that it's a very small world, like a lot of us are able to make a living playing the game as professionals, and as I alluded to earlier, the top 20 to 30 players can make a living. So even though we're competitive against each other, we want to beat each other, there is a certain level of respect that we have and there is a sort of brotherhood, I would say. Um, so all of us are, I would say, frenemies.
- LFLex Fridman
The following is a conversation with Hikaru Nakamura, a chess super grand master. He's one of the greatest chess players in the world, including currently being ranked world number one in blitz chess. He's also one of the most popular chess streamers on Twitch and YouTube, which you should definitely check out. His channel's name on both is GM Hikaru. This is the Lex Fridman Podcast. To support it, please check out our sponsors in the description, and now, dear friends, here's to Hikaru Nakamura.
- 1:41 – 9:29
A private game vs Magnus Carlsen
- LFLex Fridman
You and Magnus played a private game, 40 games of blitz in 2010 in Moscow at a hotel. This sounds and just feels legendary. Final score was 24 and a half to 15 and a half for Magnus.
- HNHikaru Nakamura
Where'd you find out the score? I'm actually curious. I don't think it was publicly said or it was very briefly said, but it wasn't ever, like, mentioned in a, in a serious way, so...
- LFLex Fridman
I think it's a deep dive based on a few links that started as... in, at a subreddit, which is how all great journeys start.
- HNHikaru Nakamura
Right. Yeah, so this is kind of a crazy story. There... This was not preplanned at all. I remember this quite well. Um, I went out to dinner that final night with someone who was actually very high up within the International Chess Club at that time. We... I went out for a nice dinner. I think I had, like, a couple of drinks. Maybe it was wine, beer, I don't know what it was. And I think towards the end of the dinner, somehow they got word of this and they, they relayed the information to me that Magnus wanted to play a private match. Now, I agreed to play this match, probably I should not have, and actually it has nothing to do with, like, the state of having been out, had a few drinks, anything of that nature. But the reason that I probably should not have agreed to play this match and why I very oftentimes reference it as one of the biggest mistakes i- in terms of competitive chess that I made is specifically because it gave Magnus a chance to understand my style of chess, and at the time, I actually had pretty good results against Magnus. I think maybe he was up one or two games, but there were many games where I'd been pressing close to winning against him prior to that match. And so when I went and played that match, there were a few things that happened. First of all, Magnus really started to understand my style because we played all sorts of different openings, um, and so I think he understood that at times I wasn't so great in the opening and there were many openings where I would play slightly dubious variations as opposed to the main lines, um, and then secondly, from my standpoint, the problem that I realized is since we were playing with an increment, there were many games where I was close to winning and he would defend endgames amazingly well. He would defend what are technical- technically drawn endgames, but where I would have like an extra pawn, it would be like rook and bishop versus rook and knight. Say I have four pawns, he has three pawns. Endgames of this nature. Now, if you aren't super into chess, you might not understand, uh, what I'm referring to. If you are, you will, but there are endgames where one side might have extra material, an extra pawn, say, extra two pawns, but theoretically it's a draw. So perfect play-
- LFLex Fridman
Can you give an example of the set of pieces we're talking about? Five, six, seven pieces, like this kind of thing?
- HNHikaru Nakamura
So, uh, okay, like a very basic one would be rook and four pawns against rook and three pawns, so that would be nine total pieces on the board. Four pawns on one side, three pawns, um, on the other side, um, but it's all on the same side of the board. Now this is a technical draw. It's been known for probably, let's just say, 70 years roughly, give or take, that this is a theoretical draw
- LFLex Fridman
No matter the position of the pawns, it's-
- HNHikaru Nakamura
Just all the pawns are on one side of the board, so like-
- LFLex Fridman
But like where they are.
- HNHikaru Nakamura
So it's like let's just say there... let's just say there are four pawns right here.
- LFLex Fridman
Mm-hmm.
- HNHikaru Nakamura
There are just four pawns and black has three pawns, so your pawns are on H6, G6, and F6, and there are no other pawns on the board. Something like this. And you both have rooks and it's a draw. No matter what the next, next like 50 moves of the game are, we know that it's a draw on endgame, um, with perfect play. And so it was things like this where Magnus would... actually saved I want to say like five or six of these, and I remember it quite well because I think the score was very, very close up until probably the last like 10 games of the match, and then at the end he started winning... he started winning in, in spades. But there were a lot of situations where he was up like one game or maybe two games in the match and I had some endgame like this, and I was not able to win the endgame. And so for me, after that match, it wasn't even so much that I lost the match or the margin I lost by, but it was the fact that I realized how hard it was to beat him even once you got the advantage, and I think for Magnus, he learned that my weakness was the openings. I remember 'cause I actually... I don't remember the game itself but there was a game we played in the Sicilian Najdorf.
- LFLex Fridman
Mm-hmm.
- HNHikaru Nakamura
Um, and he played this variation with Bishop G5 on move number six. I'm sure you can... you can insert a graphic later. I can show you, and I think-
- LFLex Fridman
Sicilian is a type of opening.
- HNHikaru Nakamura
Mm-hmm. Sicilian's the opening, Najdorf is the variation. It was played by Bobby Fischer, the former world champion. Gary Kasparov as well. And so we... we played all sorts of different openings because of course it's not a serious... it's... it's a serious match, but it's not serious where it's going to count for the rankings, so you're s- trying to feel out where your opponent is strong versus weak. And so there was one game, I remember this very clearly. He played the Bishop G5 variation in the Najdorf and I think I played E5 or I played Knight BD7 in E5, which is dubious. It's not the best response. And that's just one example where I was playing things that were a little bit dubious and I was not playing the absolute main line with 20 moves of theory. So I was trying to get outside of theory and I think Magnus learned from that, that even though it appeared that I was very well prepared in, in these openings, I wasn't...... quite at that level.
- LFLex Fridman
Couldn't you have a different interpretation of you going outside of the main line, that you're willing to experiment, take risks, that you're chaotic and that's actually a strength not a weakness? Especially when you're sitting in a hut, hotel room at, late at night, this is past midnight-
- HNHikaru Nakamura
Mm-hmm.
- LFLex Fridman
... um, playing chess. I mean, why do you interpret that that's your weakness?
- HNHikaru Nakamura
Because Magnus, going forward, was able to figure out the, the lines where you have to be super precise, you cannot deviate at all. And I got punished out of the opening in many games. So it was like, it wasn't about the Najdorf, the, the opening or the variation specifically, but he knew what my repertoire was and he would pick lines where I had to play the absolute best lines in order to equalize, um, or I would be much worse. And he was very effective at doing that.
- LFLex Fridman
But, nevertheless, it's pretty legendary that the two of you, you're one of the best chess players in the world throughout the whole period still today, that you just (laughs) sat down in a hotel room and played a ton of chess. Like what, what was that like? I mean, what's the... there's a, I think there's a, there, there is a little here, there is a little video of it.
- HNHikaru Nakamura
Sure.
- LFLex Fridman
I mean this is like epic, right? How did this video exist, by the way?
- HNHikaru Nakamura
I think there was one journalist, uh, McCauley Peterson, who was, who was able to, um, film parts of it. So it was, it was in a room, it was me and Magnus, I think Henrik was there, I think McCauley was there, and that was it.
- LFLex Fridman
People can go on YouTube and watch. It's on Chess Digital Strategies, McCauley Peterson channel. For people just listening to this, there's a, a dimly lit room with a yellow light, emerging out of the darkness of the two faces of Magnus (laughs) and Hikaru. I mean, and the deep focus here. And what time is this? This is, must be like-
- HNHikaru Nakamura
This is probably at like one in the morning.
- LFLex Fridman
Yeah.
- HNHikaru Nakamura
This was, uh, I believe the day of, day after the fin- this was the day that the final round occurred and the closing ceremonies, so we were playing afterwards.
- LFLex Fridman
I mean, are you able to appreciate the epicness of this?
- HNHikaru Nakamura
Many of my favorite memories are actually similar to this. Another memory that I really have, that I recall very fondly, was after the US Championship, it was called the 2005 US Chess Championship, it was held, um, at the end of 2004 in, I believe it was in La Jolla in San Diego. I won that event. And after that, that event, I was playing blitz probably for like four or five hours in the lobby of the hotel. So it's the same kind of situation where you're just playing for the love of the game as opposed to anything else. Of course, nowadays, um, I think both for Magnus and myself, just playing a dim, dimly lit room like this would almost certainly not happen. There would probably have to be, um, certain stakes involved for, for us to play. But, you know, if you go back in time, these are the sorts of, uh, memories and moments that would happen all the time.
- 9:29 – 25:42
Chess openings
- HNHikaru Nakamura
In fact, I think if you look at the match I played against him in the Meltwater tournament at the, I think that was in June, or no, it was later, it was like September of 2020, we played this epic match, it was the finals of the tour and it went all the way to the seventh match. Magnus won in Ar- Armageddon. And in that match, my openings were much better. I was able to match him in the openings, I was not worse out of the opening in most of the games, and that made a huge difference. But for many years he was able to exploit my openings. And he, I mean, that's why the score, I mean, it's not the only reason, but it's one of the reasons the score is so lopsided the way it is.
- LFLex Fridman
Is there any of those games, that you mentioned seven games, that are interesting to look at, to analyze?
- HNHikaru Nakamura
Uh...
- LFLex Fridman
Ideas that you remember that are interesting to you?
- HNHikaru Nakamura
I mean the whole, it was actually, so to, to set it up, and this probably will come into play in terms of world championship format, um, it was seven matches of four games. So we played a four-game match and after four games, say I'm up two and a half, one and a half, I win match number one. Then, then it's, so it's like you have to win four matches of four games.
- LFLex Fridman
Do you remember how you won?
- HNHikaru Nakamura
There were a couple of Berlin Games, uh, in the sixth, sixth match I believe, in the seventh match as well where Magnus actually made some mistakes and I won some critical games.
- LFLex Fridman
You're gonna have to explain some basics here. So Berlin's the type of opening, what's that?
- HNHikaru Nakamura
The Ruy Lopez or the Spanish, uh, opening, it actually existed all the way back in the '60s, but it really became popular in 2001 I believe it was, when Garry Kasparov and Vladimir Kramnik played their world championship match. Kasparov had been the world champion for a very long time. I think it was close, I think it was about 15, 15 years roughly, maybe a little bit more than that. Um, and he lost the match because when Garry had the white pieces, Kasparov was not able to effectively get an advantage. A lot of those games were very quick draws. And in chess you want to put pressure on your opponent when you have the white pieces. So Kasparov was not able to do anything with the white pieces, and Kramnik was able to beat him, um, when the colors were reversed. Kramnik won a game in the Grunfeld, he won a game in one of the Queen's Gambit declined/Nimzo variations as well. And, um, that was the reason Gary Kasparov lost the world championship title was because of this, this variation.
- LFLex Fridman
Can you teach me the Berlin-
- HNHikaru Nakamura
Sure, of course I can.
- LFLex Fridman
... Opening?
- HNHikaru Nakamura
Absolutely. So the opening starts, let me just move this microphone up a little bit. Starts with E4, and then it goes E5, knight F3, knight C6.
- LFLex Fridman
(laughs)
- HNHikaru Nakamura
(laughs) Yeah. Bishop B5 and now knight to F6.
- LFLex Fridman
And, uh, at which point is this the standard, like this is the, the Berlin stand-
- HNHikaru Nakamura
Yeah, this is the Berlin, this is the starting position of the Berlin Defense. And White has many, many options here. Now it's interesting because I did work with Garry at a certain point, and I remember I, I had access to his database and he had something like 220 files on the Berlin Defense. Because what happened is, is Garry's somebody who, the way that he learned chess, it's very much like there are certain openings that are okay, there are other openings that are not okay.
- LFLex Fridman
Yeah.
- HNHikaru Nakamura
And so this was considered dubious at the time. And so Garry basically decided to go into this end game with castles, knight takes pawn.
- LFLex Fridman
W- why is the castling an end game?
- HNHikaru Nakamura
So I'll show you. Knight takes pawn. All these moves are very, uh, very forced.... you got pawn to D4.
- LFLex Fridman
What does it mean they're very forced? That means, like, those are the optimal things that you should be doing?
- HNHikaru Nakamura
Exactly. These moves are, um, I think they're almost, at least for black, they're absolutely forced or else you end up in trouble.
- LFLex Fridman
You said knight takes D4?
- HNHikaru Nakamura
Uh, knight to D6.
- LFLex Fridman
Oh, sorry.
- HNHikaru Nakamura
So this attacks the bishop on B5.
- LFLex Fridman
Got it.
- HNHikaru Nakamura
White takes, black takes back with the pawn in front of the queen. Mm-hmm. Pawn takes pawn. Knight to F5. And then it goes queen takes queen.
- LFLex Fridman
What?
- 25:42 – 34:22
Mental preparation
- HNHikaru Nakamura
- LFLex Fridman
If we dig into the psychological preparation, is there something to your mental preparation that you do that makes you successful?
- HNHikaru Nakamura
(sighs)
- LFLex Fridman
Like, what are the lessons over all these years that you learned? What works, what doesn't? Do you drink a bunch of whiskey the night before? Is there, is there some-
- HNHikaru Nakamura
(laughs)
- LFLex Fridman
... is there some small hacks or major ones about how you approach the game?
- HNHikaru Nakamura
It, it's really hard sort of in a way because I feel like I'm two different people. I was one person up until the pandemic as a professional chess player solely-
- LFLex Fridman
Mm-hmm.
- HNHikaru Nakamura
... where I earned all my income, everything was derived from that, and from the pandemic on, I'm sort of a different person 'cause that is not where, where I'm making my income from. And so the whole psychological profile that I had before is completely different from now.
- LFLex Fridman
Mm-hmm.
- HNHikaru Nakamura
Uh, there, there's this, this, this joke about the "I literally don't care" phrase-
- LFLex Fridman
Yeah.
- HNHikaru Nakamura
... that I've used. And in a sense, what that means is not that I don't care, obviously I'm competitive, I want to do well, but if I lose a game or I don't do well in a tournament, it's not the end of the world in the same kind of way that I felt it was before, because that pressure of needing to always perform was very, very high. Um, and so I think before, before the pandemic, what I would try to do more than anything is just not think about the previous game for the most part. Like say I had a bad game, I'd go out for a walk that evening, just clear my mind, these sorts of things. Now they aren't really hacks per se, but it's trying essentially to have short term memory loss.
- LFLex Fridman
(laughs) So "I literally don't care" is not just a meme, it's a, it's a philosophy.
- HNHikaru Nakamura
In a sense it is, yeah.
- LFLex Fridman
It's a way of being. It-
- HNHikaru Nakamura
I mean, it's, it's basically that, yes, like, I do wanna perform well, I'm gonna give it my all, but it's not... Like, it, if I lose a game, it's not the end of the world.
- LFLex Fridman
That should be the title of your biog- autobiography. And it should be, um, like, uh, I, I know you're probably immortal, but if you do happen to die, that should also be on your tombstone. Uh, Charles Bukowski has, uh, "don't try" on his tombstone.
- HNHikaru Nakamura
Mm. Yes.
- LFLex Fridman
Which, which I think emphasizes a similar concept, but slightly different, more in the artistic domain, which is, um... Well, a lot of people have different interpretations of that statement, but I think it means don't take things too seriously.
- HNHikaru Nakamura
Yeah. I, I mean, I, I agree with that completely. I think that, um, if you, if you look at my career prior to the pandemic, I put huge amounts of pressure on myself because I really wanted to be as good as I could be, but, but it was the way I was earning a living and o- one thing that's very difficult about chess is that only the top 20, maybe 30 players in the world make a living from the game. Now, you make a very good living, um, i- no way am I diminishing chess, but the problem with it is it's not secure at all. So if you don't get invitations to the absolute top tournaments which have prize funds from anywhere from maybe 100,000 up to potentially half a million dollars, if you don't get those invitations, it's very, very hard to earn a living. You can go from earning maybe 200,000, $300,000 a year to earning like 50,000. So it's very, very unstable and I think, um, for myself, I really put a lot of pressure on myself in, in a way that it affected me and not, not, not in a good way. Not in a good way.
- LFLex Fridman
So in part it was also financial pressure. So like, once you're able to make money elsewhere, it, it, it makes you more free to take risks, to play the p- the pure game of chess?
- HNHikaru Nakamura
Yeah. It makes... Yeah, exactly. It makes, it made me, it took all that pressure off and I kind of, "I'm just trying to play as well as I can and I don't really worry. Like, if I lose a game, it's not the end all be all." And maybe that's just, like, psychological stuff that I should have tried to sort out before. I mean, I did at s- some period of time, like, do certain things along those lines, but, um, I, I just... Yeah, I became, became free, and I think it, it definitely, it was not about the chess. And that's one of those things that's also very hard because when I look at myself and when I had these periods where it seemed like I played better or improved, one of these periods, um, was in 2008 where I basically, I dropped out of college, I was about 2650 Elo so I was roughly top 100 in the world, and for the first probably half part of 2008 I played very little. Almost not at all, I w- I went up to Vancouver, I was living on my own for the first time and I was not studying that much. And then after that period I started playing and I actually improved very quickly and I broke 2700 shortly thereafter. So it had nothing to do with chess.
- LFLex Fridman
When you moved to Vancouver, uh, and weren't doing much, what, what were you doing exactly?
- HNHikaru Nakamura
Oh, I was enjoying nature. I was going outside, hiking mountains, um, like, going and, and kayaking, all these things that I was not, uh, that I had not done for many, many years.
- LFLex Fridman
Beautiful. I'm, I'm glad I asked 'cause I was imagining something else. I was imagining you, like, in a dark room drinking and pla- uh-
- HNHikaru Nakamura
No. (laughs)
- LFLex Fridman
... playing video games and, uh-
- HNHikaru Nakamura
Not at all.
- LFLex Fridman
Okay, cool. That, that's good. That, that, that's an interesting break. So dropping out of college and then giving, taking a break and then giving everything to chess-
- 34:22 – 44:45
Chess tactics
- LFLex Fridman
know chess, what, what kind of tactical ideas are interesting and basic to understand that once you understand, you, uh, you take early leaps in improvement?
- HNHikaru Nakamura
Yeah, so it's things like forks, for example, where you attack two pieces at the same time, discovered attacks like checkmates, and again, winning like a queen or, or other material. Those are probably two most important ones. Um, batteries, uh, or batteries and pins, things of th- things of that nature. Also
- NANarrator
How many-
- LFLex Fridman
... how rich is the world of... and by the way, discovered attacks are when you move a piece.
- HNHikaru Nakamura
Mm-hmm. And you, you put a king in check to win like a rook, for example, or, or other material.
- LFLex Fridman
And forking pieces is when you're attacking two pieces, so obviously the other person can't move two pieces at a time, they're gonna have to lose one of them. Okay. So how big is the world, the universe of forks and discovered attacks? Like, um, y- you know, I, I, I'm, I myself know, so there's like knights-
- HNHikaru Nakamura
Mm-hmm.
- LFLex Fridman
... attacking like, uh, what is, what is it?
- HNHikaru Nakamura
There, there are forks-knight attacking like a queen and a rook, for example.
- LFLex Fridman
Queen and a rook.
- HNHikaru Nakamura
Or like when the pawn attacking a queen and a rook, um, or like a rook and a bishop. Um, it's enumerable. There... I mean, but I will say that I think that with chess, the more of these patterns you see, the quicker you catch them. And that's how you improve, I think, the, the most is by learning these basic tactical themes at, at the beginner levels.
- LFLex Fridman
Are you... when you're discovering those patterns, are you looking at the chess board or are you looking at some like higher dimensional representation of the, the relative position of the pieces? Y- you know, so basically something that's disjoint of the particular absolute position of the piece, but like you're seeing patterns, like this kind of pattern, but elsewhere on the board.
- HNHikaru Nakamura
Yeah, I think-
- LFLex Fridman
Like, are you thinking in, in patterns or in like absolute positions of the pieces?
- HNHikaru Nakamura
Both. I think that at, at the higher levels, you're, you're always thinking about like, you're, you're thinking about the patterns on one side of the board specifically, but then also what happens is you play more and more if you're a very strong player. You will be able to remember say, pawn structures, where the pawns are on certain squares from games that you've played like 15, 20 years ago even potentially. Um, so it's a mix. I think a lot of it is more subconscious than actively thinking about it and like figuring it out like that. Um, the only thing for me that I definitely am doing very frequently when I, when I play is, is trying to look at my pieces. Are they placed on the optimal squares? Are there better squares? And then once I get past that, like using the basic logic, I start to think about, okay, what pure calculations, like what are the moves that make a lot of sense and start calculating direct moves. But one of the most basic things that I think that I do that a lot of people actually should do that they don't do, is looking at the piece placement and trying to figure out what pieces look like they're on good squares versus bad squares.
- LFLex Fridman
(laughs) So a- am I, for each piece asking the question, "Am I in my happy place? Am I in my, like, optimally happy place?"
- HNHikaru Nakamura
Yes. Yeah, I think that's very important. Like, if we look at this position on the board right now is a good example.
- LFLex Fridman
Who's not in their happy place on the board right now?
- HNHikaru Nakamura
I think both, both sides are actually pretty happy right now. But the thing is, if you're playing with the block users, what i- what is a move that sticks out to you to, like, follow basic principles?
- LFLex Fridman
Basic principles, probably bring out the bishop.
- HNHikaru Nakamura
And then castle the king.
- LFLex Fridman
And castle the king.
- HNHikaru Nakamura
Right, exactly. That's, that's correct and, and that's what you should do. That's the best way to play the position. Um, now once you do that though...
- LFLex Fridman
By the way, I have a vibrating device-
- HNHikaru Nakamura
(laughs)
- LFLex Fridman
... inside of me right now, so I knew that.
- HNHikaru Nakamura
Right.
- LFLex Fridman
'Cause... And, so my rating is 3,400 which is what I believe Stockfish is.
- HNHikaru Nakamura
Mm-hmm.
- LFLex Fridman
Anyway.
- 44:45 – 50:26
Solving chess
- LFLex Fridman
kind of way? Let me ask you, uh, a ridiculous question. (laughs) Do you think chess will ever get solved from the-
- HNHikaru Nakamura
Um.
- LFLex Fridman
... opening position to where we'll know the optimal, optimal level of play?
- HNHikaru Nakamura
I highly doubt it, um, without major advances in quantum computing. I don't think it's realistic to expect chess to be hard solved. I just, I don't think that will happen.
- LFLex Fridman
Yeah.
- HNHikaru Nakamura
Um, but I, I don't know. It could happen 20, 30 years maybe, but I, I think in the near future, it's not, not realistic.
- LFLex Fridman
Well, then let's go up with a pothead follow-up question. Suppose it does get solved, what opening do you think will be the optimal?
- HNHikaru Nakamura
Well, everything will be a draw for sure. After move one.
- LFLex Fridman
For sure?
- HNHikaru Nakamura
After move one, yes.
- LFLex Fridman
For sure?
- HNHikaru Nakamura
Absolutely.
- LFLex Fridman
You're absolutely sure of that?
- HNHikaru Nakamura
Yes. Yes.
- LFLex Fridman
That's ca- wha- how, why are you so sure?
- HNHikaru Nakamura
I'm so sure because when you look at the computer games and you see these decisive results, it's because they played... the openings are set generally. They can't, they can't... for move one, they play set openings. Like you might play the knight or you might play the Berlin Defense. Normally it's set openings-
- LFLex Fridman
Mm-hmm.
- HNHikaru Nakamura
... as opposed to, um, as opposed to computers being able to do whatever they want. I just believe s- in general w- when these openings that are symmetrical, like E4, E5, D4, D5, uh, the computers will draw and I think the optimal opening, I think E4, E5, knight F3, knight F6 is probably a guaranteed draw if there is perfect... if we have perfect information and we know that, that chess is solved, E4, E5, knight F3, knight F6, the, uh, Russian or the Petrov defense, that, that will be the optimal strategy.
- LFLex Fridman
See, so that's-
- HNHikaru Nakamura
I'm sure of that.
- LFLex Fridman
... symmetrical play-
- HNHikaru Nakamura
Mm-hmm.
- LFLex Fridman
... is going to lead to a draw. But what if you can constantly, as white, maintain asymmetry, constantly keep the opponent off balance? So yes, E4, then, then you're al- you're always doing this symmetry. But what if chess inherently, there's something about the mathematics of the game-
- HNHikaru Nakamura
Mm-hmm.
- LFLex Fridman
... that allows for, like, that thin line that you walk that maintains to the endgame the asymmetry constantly, that there's no move that can r- uh, bring, bring back the balance of the game, you know?
- HNHikaru Nakamura
Yeah. I, I just-
- LFLex Fridman
You don't think that exists?
- HNHikaru Nakamura
I don't think it does. So basically I'm saying E4, E5 I think is a draw. I think D4, D5 is a draw. C4, C5, I think, I think basically symmetry, that's-
- LFLex Fridman
All of it's a draw. Okay.
- HNHikaru Nakamura
I think that's, that's why it's a draw.
- 50:26 – 55:11
Aggression and ego
- HNHikaru Nakamura
- LFLex Fridman
You're known for being a very aggressive player. What's your approach to being willing to take big risks at the chess board?
- HNHikaru Nakamura
Well, I think, uh, that's another thing. I was a very aggressive player probably until I got to about this 2,700 ELO, and then it kind of, my style changed a little bit. I think what it is, is I like to play attacking chess. I love playing openings like the King's Indian, um, the Sicilian Najdorf as well when I was a little bit younger. Uh, and it's just like, why not try to fight with both colors, try to fight in every game and win if you can. Uh, try, try as hard as you can. Now one of the things is, as you get better and better, players are also better and better prepared. So you have dimish- diminishing returns when you play these very aggressive openings like the King's Indian or even, even the Dutch, which I played for a while. You can only... It only takes you so far and then at, then at a point people figure out what, how to respond to those choices. So I still do play these openings. For example, I played a tournament in St. Louis about three weeks ago and I played a great King's Indian game, which I won, against Jeffrey Zhang, an American junior player. So I still do play it here and there, but when you start playing it every game, uh, there's a, there's a point at which when you lose these games, you just can't... It becomes too much. And I spoke about this in the CSquared podcast where I played the Najdorf and then I played Fabiano Caruana, a very strong American player as well, and he just blew me off the board in, like, four straight games. I'm like, "Okay, enough. Enough of this. I just can't, I can't keep doing it."
- LFLex Fridman
Because, uh, did he... Do you think he prepared for that opening then?
- HNHikaru Nakamura
Absolutely.
- LFLex Fridman
Because you see what, what have, uh, what has my opponent been playing recently? Where's their ideas? And so I'm going to prepare for those ideas that they've been playing with.
- HNHikaru Nakamura
Exactly. Yeah. That's, that's what you do and also you have to be very self-critical 'cause for Fabiano, the Najdorf was the one opening he did very poorly against. But he worked really hard and he came up with a lot of different ideas and he, he solved that weakness.
- LFLex Fridman
What's the role of, uh... You're also known of having a bit of an ego. Uh, what's the role of ego in chess? Is it helpful or does it get in the way?
- HNHikaru Nakamura
I think it's a mix. I think there, there's a fine line. I think you have to be very confident in order to get to the top. I know some players are very expressive like myself, like Kasparov and others. There are other people like Anand who don't express it, but then there was a book that I think was released fairly recently where he basically said, like, he, he was really angry in his room and he was, like, banging walls or, or doing something with chairs. Uh, I don't, I don't remember the exact story, but, like, he wa- he was able to k- in public, he kept it very, like, very buttoned up, but then in private he wasn't. I think, you know, you have to, you have to have that edge. If you don't have that edge and you don't get upset when you lose games, because you will lose games along the way, then it's impossible to get anywhere near the top. So I think every top player has that ego or, or extreme confidence that is necessary. If you don't have that, you'll never, I think, get to the top, probably in almost any field, frankly.
- LFLex Fridman
Do you have to believe you're the best or have the ca- capacity to be the best in the world?
- HNHikaru Nakamura
Yeah, I think you have to have that. I think for me it's, wasn't really ever about thinking I'm the best in the world. It's about, like, going into that game. That game, whoever I'm playing, I believe that I can beat them.
- LFLex Fridman
Yeah.
- HNHikaru Nakamura
Or I know that I'm gonna beat them or I'm better than them. That's, for me, it was always about the, that... Whenever I'm in that moment in the game, just knowing that, that I can do that. I think that is also another thing that when you start playing more and more in these top tournaments, you, you kind of lose that sometimes because the positions you s- have the same opening strategies, you end up with positions that are very draw-ish where you reach endgames, things of this nature. And so it can also make you very jaded as well, um, after you've been up there for quite a long time.
- LFLex Fridman
Were there times you were an asshole to someone and you regret it at, at the chess board-
- HNHikaru Nakamura
(laughs)
- LFLex Fridman
... or beyond-
- HNHikaru Nakamura
Yeah. So I, I think-
- LFLex Fridman
... asking internet questions?
- HNHikaru Nakamura
Yeah. I mean, this is definitely true. I'm not gonna pretend it isn't. When I, when I was younger, um, I was very angry when I would lose games on the internet. Um, many of these stories are specifically from the internet, of course, and, you know, I think I look back on it and of course I, I wish that I'd been able to, like, channel the anger differently. Basically, I think the simple gist of it is I would play blitz games online and when I lost, I would get angry at my opponents-
- LFLex Fridman
Yeah.
- HNHikaru Nakamura
... instead of getting angry at myself.
- LFLex Fridman
Yes.
- HNHikaru Nakamura
Um, which of course it's silly 'cause they're playing the game. They're trying to win. Like, why shouldn't they try to beat you? I think for me, like, I'm not happy about that when I was, when I was a young teenager getting so angry over these online games and insulting a lot of people along the way.
- LFLex Fridman
(laughs) But maybe that paved the way to your streaming career. (laughs)
- HNHikaru Nakamura
I think for me, like, I feel like having that me-against-the-world attitude though, it really fueled me when I was younger. Feeling like it was me against the world-
- LFLex Fridman
Yeah.
- HNHikaru Nakamura
... everyone hating me or me hating the world, that was very important. I was able to channel that anger in a way that really helped me improve. So like, do I regret it? On the one hand, yes, of course you don't... I, I think it, I think you don't wanna be like that. On the other hand, would I have gotten as good as I am if it was different? I'm not so sure. So, it's a mix.
- 55:11 – 1:05:03
Hans Niemann cheating scandal
- HNHikaru Nakamura
- LFLex Fridman
Well, then I'll a- ask you to empathize with somebody else who's currently has a me-against-the-world attitude and it's helping him, which is Hans Niemann. Uh, for several reasons, he has me-against-the-world kind of attitude. Well, let me ask, there's been, um, a, a chess controversy about cheating and so on that you've covered. People should subscribe to your channel. You're, you're hilarious, entertaining, brilliant, and it's just, uh, fun to learn from you.Do you think, as we stand now, Hans ever cheated in over-the-board chess? What, as- as things stand now at the beginning of October?
- HNHikaru Nakamura
Yeah. It's, that's a very tough question for a couple of reasons. I think first of all, when people refer to evidence in regards to whether Hans cheated over the board, there is not and I don't think there ever will be, quote-unquote, "hard evidence." The only thing that would ever constitute that is if he's caught in the act. Literally, he's caught, like, using a phone with an earpiece, whatever it might be. That is the only way that there would ever be hard evidence. So, as it stands right now, there's a lot of circumstantial evidence, how much of it is legitimate or not remains to be seen. I know people have questioned the statistics, some people think it's very convincing, some people think it's complete nonsense. (smacks lips) I think, uh, I think that right now, I'm- I'm very undecided. Uh, but I- I do feel that within the next, like, three to six months, assuming Hans is able to play over the board in more tournaments, the stats will make it very clear one way or the other based on the results whether it's legitimate or not. I think, I think for me, I would say that regardless of whether- whether you've, whether, like, I believe he cheated or not, he is playing at probably a 20, he's probably at least 2,650 no matter what. Regardless of whether he's cheated or not, he's already at that level which is very, very high. So I think the stats will- will bear it out in the next probably, I'd say, I'd say three to six months, probably I would say the next six to 12 months, um, whether something happened, but I- I really don't know.
- LFLex Fridman
Do you find compelling or interesting, uh, the kind of analysis where you compare the correlation between engines and humans to- to try to determine if cheating was done, in part?
- HNHikaru Nakamura
So initially, I thought that that was actually quite legitimate, but as I, as I found out much more recently, anybody can basically upload this data. So that- that whole theory, while it seemed very convincing at the time, it simply isn't- isn't any statistical, um, evidence in my opinion now. But there- there are games from some of those tournaments that definitely considering where his rating was, look very suspicious in 2020, I would say. Um, again, that's not the role of, like, myself to decide, or chess.com. That's obviously gonna be up to FIDE whether they think that's compelling evidence or not. Um, I think, for me, what I would say from an intuitive standpoint is that I've been in this world for a very, very long time. I've- I've seen most of the juniors as they've risen through the ranks, Magnus and many others, um, and there's always been something about them that has stood out to me, that it's been, like, a brilliant game they played against someone who's much higher rated. I've just seen it from all the, all those players, I never really saw that with Hans Niemann. So it's very difficult for me to sort of, with my own two eyes, being in this chess world so long, see things a certain way, and then, like, something that's never happened before is happening. But at the end of the day, it is still possible. It is completely possible that Hans, something clicked at a certain age and he started improving in spite of the fact that, you know, the- the statistics look weird in terms of his rating improvement. So I don't know. I- I sort of, I think that in six to 12 months, I'll probably be able to say one way or the other with very certain confidence, like, you know, whether- whether he should be there or not.
- LFLex Fridman
Speaking of statistics, uh, I should ask, I'm not sure about this. Are you a data scientist?
- HNHikaru Nakamura
(laughs) Right. That's a good one. No. Of course I'm not. You know, but it's, that's the thing. You see, you see all these stats are thrown out there and you- you try to, try to understand what's being said. Um, but it's- it's also very scary because when you see these things that look very legitimate and then they're- they're disproven or people say, like, you're cherry picking, like, the dates and all these other things, it almost feels like you can come to any conclusion that you want to.
- LFLex Fridman
Yeah.
- HNHikaru Nakamura
And that's why I think this is such a serious issue for the world of chess because going forward, if we don't take it seriously now, I think at some point, there is the potential for a much, much larger scandal.
- LFLex Fridman
Do you agree that, like with- with Magnus, I think, said that it is an existential threat to chess, like this is a very serious problem that's only going to get bigger because it's, you're basically, uh, from a spectator perspective, from a competitor perspective, are not sure that you can trust any of the results?
- HNHikaru Nakamura
Yeah. I think that's for sure true. When- when I think back to the last, like, five to ten years, there are plenty of top-leveled tournaments that I played in where there was no security at all.
- LFLex Fridman
Yeah.
- HNHikaru Nakamura
Um, you would just, you would just go into the auditorium and play your games and that was that. So I do think it's a big issue. I think it has been a big issue but the reason it's only coming to light now is because it features a very strong junior player who's very close to the world's elite. There have been many cheating scandals before. Uh, there was this French player, Sebastian Feller. There was this player, Igors Rauzes from Latvia. Um, there was this, uh, I think he was from Belarus or may- maybe I have that wrong. Maybe it was Bulgaria. Uh, Boris Lav Ivanov as well. Those are three big cheating scandals but they were not at the absolute top levels of chess, which I think is why, um, it never became the huge news story that this is, or it wasn't viewed in the same kind of way, is why I think organizers were perhaps a little bit too lax in terms of security.
- LFLex Fridman
So you said 2,650. Is it possible that Hans is in fact a kind of Bobby Fischer level of genius and he's capable at times of genius at the chess board?
- HNHikaru Nakamura
Oh, absolutely. 100%. That- that is absolutely possible. I think that's why I think for everybody in this situation, we wanna see what happens in the next six to 12 months because I think it will be very clear. Also, it's very interesting to me because there are other stats, um, from that 72-page report that chess.com compiled which in essence say certain other junior players basically have peaked, that they're not likely to improve further.
- LFLex Fridman
Mm-hmm.
- HNHikaru Nakamura
So it's also gonna be very interesting when you look at those, like, I think it was, like, 50 pages of graphs, 'cause there are graphs that say, like, some of the other junior players are done. So when we look forward, like, in a year or two, if those players don't improve, it- it will also say something about their methods as well that they've used to sort of compile this data.
- LFLex Fridman
Yeah. I wonder what those junior players do if they look at that data. So the- there- there is a point where you should look at yourself, like, practically.... like, what, what is the actual empirical data over the past year of how much I've improved at, at a particular thing. Like, it's, it's one thing to kind of tell yourself that these are the ways I need to improve and it's another to actually look at the data and face the reality of it.
- HNHikaru Nakamura
Right. I, I think also that could have a psychological effect. That is the other thing-
- LFLex Fridman
Yeah, true.
- HNHikaru Nakamura
... that makes the whole Hans situation so tough, because if you think that he's cheated or you're unsure about what's going on, that is another psychological factor whenever you play against him.
- LFLex Fridman
In his favor or against him?
- HNHikaru Nakamura
Definitely in his favor. Definitely in his favor.
- LFLex Fridman
(laughs) That's great.
- HNHikaru Nakamura
Because for example, if I go online and play against the computer, let's just say I go play against Stockfish tomorrow, I'm gonna play a very certain type of opening strategy, try to keep the board closed and maybe hope to get lucky. Now computers have gotten so good that generally even that doesn't... I, I don't even have a chance even with such strategies, but you, you play differently than you normally would. And so if you're playing a game against him and there's a move that looks really weird, um, it doesn't seem logical at all, that can also start to affect you where you immediately make a mistake, or you start questioning yourself, or you start thinking, "Well, what's going on here? Is there something, um, something unbecoming." Like, you, you start worrying about what is happening. And so it definitely is, uh, it, it is, it's a very tough situation.
- LFLex Fridman
(inhales) Do you agree with Magnus's decision to forfeit the match, his most recent match with Hans to-
- HNHikaru Nakamura
Aw, tough question. I, I don't... uh, in my heart of hearts, I feel like there had to be a better way to handle it than what Magnus did. Um, on the other hand, sort of being in this world of top grand masters, having heard these rumors for two years, I think that the fact that it was blown off and it wasn't treated seriously, I'm not sure if there was a better option. So in my heart of hearts, I feel like there had to be a better way to handle it. But in practicality, like in the practical world, I don't... I think he might have made the only decision where it became a big issue.
- LFLex Fridman
(inhales) Yeah, I mean, I guess I would've loved to see just where 100% it's certain that there's no cheating involved, that they play a bunch of games.
- HNHikaru Nakamura
Yeah, I think there was actually an article that was released today by, uh, Ken Rogoff, uh, who, who is a grand master at chess, where he, he wrote this article in the Boston Globe, and he essentially said that like, "Have Hans and Magnus play a match-
- LFLex Fridman
Yeah.
- 1:05:03 – 1:19:26
How to cheat in chess
- HNHikaru Nakamura
I don't know.
- LFLex Fridman
And for people who don't understand, when it's broadcast, it's easier to cheat because you can have... it, it removes one of the challenges of cheating, which is the one-way communication from the board to the engine. Here, the engine can just watch the broadcast and then all you have to do is send signals right back.
- HNHikaru Nakamura
Right.
- LFLex Fridman
Uh, I mean, th- that's really... I've woken up to this fact, actually, uh, programmed, so setting all the silly sex toys aside, um, I have, uh, I have a bunch of these devices. So like of, uh, this, um, it's the size of a coin-
- HNHikaru Nakamura
Mm-hmm.
- LFLex Fridman
... and it has a high resolution vibration that you can send. So you can just have this in your pocket. It's basically what your f- your-
- HNHikaru Nakamura
Mm-hmm.
- LFLex Fridman
... your smartphone has ability to, uh, vibrate and can do programmatic communication through anything. Bluetooth is the easiest. So like this made me wonder like, "Wait a minute, how often does this happen?"
- HNHikaru Nakamura
Mm-hmm.
- LFLex Fridman
Like, at every level of play. And you said this only became a huge concern for, uh, at the highest level of play, but then how much cheating is going on at like the, the, the middle level of play, especially when more money is involved? So in the game of poker, when like... It's, it really, um, it really made me think, like, the future will have devices like this much easier to... Like, you'll engineer smaller and smaller and smaller devices that have onboard compute.
- HNHikaru Nakamura
Mm-hmm.
- LFLex Fridman
That like, like this is the future. I mean, I, I just, it makes me, um... I think probably with all kinds of cy- cybersecurity, that means the defense will just have to get, start to get better. Even with chess, it seems like the security is very clumsy, just looking at the scanning of the recent tournament.
- HNHikaru Nakamura
Right. One thing you'll see is that a lot of people are talking about whether Hans has cheated or not.
- LFLex Fridman
Yeah.
- HNHikaru Nakamura
The one thing that almost nobody is doing is actually like trying to show how it can be done.
- LFLex Fridman
Yeah.
- HNHikaru Nakamura
Every- everyone's basically avoiding that, and I think the, the single biggest reason for that is simply because it can be done very easily at like a weekend tournament. If you play a weekend tournament where the top prize is $100 and the players are maybe master level, somebody could already do this. Because even in St. Louis now where they have the security, my understanding is the wa- the, um, the nonlinear junction device they bought costs about $11,000. Um, and organizers, if you, if you have a weekend tournament at the, at the local club, you don't have $11,000 to spend on such a device. And so that is why a lot of people haven't been talking about it, but I think it is very, very serious. And it's a... that's why it is good even if, you know, aside from Hans even, it is a very important question or debate to be having at the present moment in time.
- LFLex Fridman
Well, I think...I think it's good to talk about it, right?
- HNHikaru Nakamura
Mm-hmm.
- LFLex Fridman
To make it so that the defenses will really step up. I think you could do pretty cheap, like, uh, security pretty cheaply, uh...
- HNHikaru Nakamura
Yeah.
- LFLex Fridman
... but you have to take it seriously.
- HNHikaru Nakamura
Right. Right. Of course. Uh, and again, we'll, we'll see what happens. W- I think that's gonna end up being on FIDE more than anyone else-
- LFLex Fridman
Yeah.
- HNHikaru Nakamura
... to try and do that. I, I don't think asking the organizers to do it, I mean, I feel like FIDE, they are the governing body. It will be on them at the end of the day to, to figure it out. But it's, uh, it's, it's gonna be interesting to see what happens in the next couple of months.
- LFLex Fridman
Will you play Hans if the opportunity arises?
- HNHikaru Nakamura
Well, right now that's not in the near future for me, I think, fortunately.
- LFLex Fridman
Why not? Why not?
Episode duration: 2:48:42
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