Ivanka Trump: Politics, Family, Real Estate, Fashion, Music, and Life | Lex Fridman Podcast #436

1. 0:00 – 1:57

   Introduction

   1. LFLex Fridman0:00

      The following is a conversation with Ivanka Trump, businesswoman, real estate developer, and former senior advisor to the President of the United States. I've gotten to know Ivanka well over the past two years. We've become good friends, hitting it off right away over our mutual love of reading, especially philosophical writings from Marcus Aurelius, Joseph Campbell, Alan Watts, Viktor Frankl, and so on. She is a truly kind, compassionate, and thoughtful human being. In the past, people have attacked her, in my view, to get indirectly at her dad, Donald Trump, as part of a dirty game of politics and clickbait journalism. These attacks obscured many projects and efforts, often bipartisan, that she helped get done, and they obscured the truth of who she is as a human being. Through all that, she never returned the attacks with anything but kindness, and always walked through the fire of it all with grace. For this and much more, she is an inspiration, and I'm honored to be able to call her a friend. Oh, and, uh, for those living in the United States, happy upcoming Fourth of July. It's both an anniversary of this country's declaration of independence and an anniversary of my immigrating here to the US. I am forever grateful for this amazing country, for this amazing life, for all of you who have given a chance to a silly kid like me. From the bottom of my heart, thank you. I love you all. This is the Lex Fridman Podcast. To support it, please check out our sponsors in the description. And now, dear friends, here's Ivanka Trump.

2. 1:57 – 14:12

   Architecture

   1. LFLex Fridman1:57

      You said that ever since you were young, you wanted to be a builder, that you loved the idea of designing beautiful city skylines, especially New York City. I love the New York City skyline. So, uh, describe the origins of that love of building.

   2. ITIvanka Trump2:11

      You know, I think there's both an incredible confidence and a total insecurity that comes with youth. So I remember-

   3. LFLex Fridman2:21

      (laughs)

   4. ITIvanka Trump2:22

      ... (laughs) at 15, I would look out over the city skyline from my bedroom window in New York and imagine where I could contribute and, and add value in a way that, you know, I look back on and, and completely laugh at, you know, how confident I was. But I've, I've known since some of my earliest memories, it's something I've wanted to do, and I think I, fundamentally, I love art. I love expressions of, of beauty in so many different forms. Um, with architecture, there's the tangible, and I think that marriage of, of function and something that exists beyond yourself is very compelling. I also grew up in a family where my mother was in the real estate business working alongside my father. My father was in the business, and I saw the joy that it brought to them, so I think I had these natural positive associations. They used to send me as a little girl renderings of projects they were about to embark on with notes asking if I would hurry up and finish school so I could come join them. So, I had these positive associations, but it came from something within myself. I think that as I got older and as I got involved in real estate, I realized that it was so multidisciplinary. You have, of course, the design, but you also have engineering, the brass tacks of construction. There's time management. There's project planning. Just the duration of time to complete one of these iconic structures, it's enormous. You can contribute a decade of your life to one project. So, while you have to think big picture, it means you really have to care deeply about the details because you, you live with them. So, it, um, it allowed me to flex a lot of areas of interest.

   5. LFLex Fridman4:10

      I love that confidence of youth.

   6. ITIvanka Trump4:13

      It's funny because we're all so insecure, right, in the most basic interactions, but yet our ambitions are so unbridled in a way that kind of, like, makes you blush as an adult. And I think it's fun. It's r- fun to, like, tap into that energy.

   7. LFLex Fridman4:28

      Yeah, where everything is possible.

   8. ITIvanka Trump4:30

      Yeah.

   9. LFLex Fridman4:30

      I think some of the, the greatest builders I've ever met kind of always have that little flame of everything is possible still burning. That is a silly notion from youth, but it's not so silly.

   10. ITIvanka Trump4:41

       Yeah.

   11. LFLex Fridman4:42

       You know, everybody tells you something is impossible, but if you continue believing that it's possible and have that sort of naïve notion that you can do it even if it's exceptionally difficult, that naïve notion turns into some of the greatest projects ever done.

   12. ITIvanka Trump4:54

       100%.

   13. LFLex Fridman4:55

       You know, going out to space or, uh, building a new company where, like, everybody said it's impossible, taking on a gigantic company and, uh, uh, disrupting them and revolutionizing how stuff is done, or doing hu- huge building projects where, like you said, so many people are involved in making that happen.

   14. ITIvanka Trump5:14

       We get conditioned out of that feeling.

   15. LFLex Fridman5:16

       Yeah.

   16. ITIvanka Trump5:16

       We start to become insecure, and it's, we start to rely on the input or validation of others, and it takes us away from that sort of core drive and, um, and ambition. So it's, it's, it's fun to, to reflect on that and also to smile, right? Because whether you can execute or not, time will tell. (laughs) But, um, but yeah, no, that was, that was very much my childhood.

   17. LFLex Fridman5:42

       Yeah, of course it's important to also have the humility of once you get humbled and realize there's actually a lot of work to build. Uh, I still am amazed just looking at big buildings, big bridges, that human beings are able to get together and build those things. That's one of my favorite things about architecture is just, like...Wow. It's, it's a, a manifestation of the fact that humans can collaborate and do something like epic, much bigger than themselves, and it's like a statue that represents that.

   18. ITIvanka Trump6:14

       Yeah.

   19. LFLex Fridman6:14

       And it could be there for a long time.

   20. ITIvanka Trump6:16

       I think in, in some ways, you look out at, at different city skylines and it's, it's almost like, um, a visual depiction of ambition realized, right? Like-

   21. LFLex Fridman6:26

       Yeah.

   22. ITIvanka Trump6:26

       ... it's a testament to somebody's dream to s- not somebody, a whole, um, ensemble of people's dreams and, and visions, um, and triumphs, and in some cases failures, um, if the projects weren't properly executed. So, so you look at these skylines and, and, and it's a testament to that. I actually heard once architecture described as frozen music, that that really resonated with me.

   23. LFLex Fridman6:54

       I love thinking about a city skyline as an ensemble of dreams realized.

   24. ITIvanka Trump6:58

       Yeah. I remember the first time I, I went to, um, Dubai and I was watching them dredging out and, and creating these manmade islands, and I remember somebody once saying to me there, an architect, um, an architect actually who collaborated with us on, on our tower in Chicago, he said that the only thing that limited what an architect could do in that area was gravity and imagination. (laughs)

   25. LFLex Fridman7:26

       (laughs)

   26. ITIvanka Trump7:26

       So, so it's, it's, you know?

   27. LFLex Fridman7:28

       Yeah, but gravity is a tricky one to work against, and that's where civil engineering is one of my favorite things. I used to build, uh, bridges in high school for physics classes. You have to build bridges and you compete on how much weight they can carry relative to their own weight.

   28. ITIvanka Trump7:41

       Yeah.

   29. LFLex Fridman7:42

       You study how good it is by finding its breaking point, and that was a deep appreciation for me on a miniature scale of, on a large scale what people are able to do with civil engineering.

   30. ITIvanka Trump7:54

       Yeah.
3. 14:12 – 21:45

   Modern architecture

   1. LFLex Fridman14:12

      else.

   2. ITIvanka Trump14:12

      100%.

   3. LFLex Fridman14:13

      One of the underlying principles of the page I just mentioned, and I hear folks mention this a lot, is that, uh, modern architecture is kinda boring, that it lacks soul and beauty. And you just spoke with admiration for both modern and for Gothic, for older, uh, architecture. So do you think there's truth that the modern architecture is boring?

   4. ITIvanka Trump14:34

      I'm living in Miami currently, so I see a lot of super uninspired glass boxes on, on the waterfront, but, um, but I think exceptional things shouldn't be the norm. You know, they're typically rare, so... And I think in modern architecture, you find an abundance of amazing examples of, of super compelling and, and innovative building designs. I mean, I mentioned the Burj Khalifa. It is awe-inspiring. This is an unbelievably striking example of modern architecture. You look at some older examples, the Sydney Opera House and, you know, so, so I think there's unbelievable... There you go.

   5. LFLex Fridman15:14

      (laughs)

   6. ITIvanka Trump15:16

      I mean, that's like a needle in the sky.

   7. LFLex Fridman15:17

      (laughs) Yeah, reaching out to the stars.

   8. ITIvanka Trump15:21

      It's, it's huge, and in the context of a city where there's a lot of height.

   9. LFLex Fridman15:25

      Yeah.

   10. ITIvanka Trump15:25

       Um, so it's, it's unbelievable. But I, I think one of the things that's probably exciting me the most about architecture right now is the innovation that's happening within it. W- you know, there's example of robotic fabrication. There's 3D printing. Um, your friend and, and who you introduced me to not too long ago, Neri Oxman, what she's doing at the intersection of biology and technology, and thinking about how to create more sustainable development practices, quite literally trying to create materials that will biodegrade back into the earth. I think there's something really cool happening now with the rediscovery of ancient building techniques, so you have self-healing concrete that was used by the Romans on art and a practice of using volcanic ash and lime that's now being rediscovered and is more critical than ever as we think about how much of our infrastructure relies on concrete and how much of that is failing on the most basic levels. So I think actually, it's a really, really exciting time, um, for innovation in architecture, and I think there are some incredible examples of, of, of modern design that are, are really exciting. But generally, I think Roosevelt said that comparison is the thief of joy.

   11. LFLex Fridman16:50

       (laughs) Yeah.

   12. ITIvanka Trump16:50

       So, it's hard. You know, you look at the Tribune Building, you look at some of these iconic structures. One of, um, the buildings I'm most proud to have worked on was the historic Old Post Office building in Washington, DC. You look at a building like that and it feels like it has no equal.

   13. LFLex Fridman17:07

       Also, there's a, just a psychological element where people tend to want to complain about the new and celebrate the old.

   14. ITIvanka Trump17:14

       Always.

   15. LFLex Fridman17:14

       Yeah. (laughs)

   16. ITIvanka Trump17:15

       (laughs) It's like the history of time, so...

   17. LFLex Fridman17:17

       It's just people are always kinda skeptical and concerned about change.

   18. ITIvanka Trump17:21

       Yeah.

   19. LFLex Fridman17:22

       And it's true that there's a lot of stuff that's new that's not good, that's not gonna last, that's not gonna stand the test of time, but some things will. And there's, uh, just like in modern art, there's, and modern music, there's going to be artists that, uh, stand the test of time and we'll later look back and celebrate them, "Those were the good times."

   20. ITIvanka Trump17:40

       Yeah.

   21. LFLex Fridman17:41

       When you just step back, what do you love about architecture? Is it the beauty? Is it the function?

   22. ITIvanka Trump17:48

       I'm most emotionally drawn, obviously, to the beauty, but I think as somebody who's built things, I really believe that the form has to follow the function. Like, there's nothing uglier than a space that...... is ill-conceived, that, that, you know, otherwise it's, it's, it's decoration. And I think that after sort of that initial reaction to seeing something that's aesthetically really pleasing to me when I, when I look at a, um, when I look at a building or, or a project, I love sort of thinking about how it's being used. So having been able to build so many things in, um, in my career and, and worked on so many incredible projects, I mean, it's really, really rewarding after the fact to have somebody come up to you and, and tell you that they got engaged in-

   23. LFLex Fridman18:46

       (laughs)

   24. ITIvanka Trump18:46

       ... the lobby of your building, or they got married in the ballroom, and, um, and share with you some of those experiences. So, so to me, that's equally as beautiful, um, the, the use cases for, for these unbelievable projects. But, but I think, I think it's all of it. I, I love, I love that you've got the construction, and you've got the design, and you've got then the interior design, and you've got the financing elements, the marketing elements, and it's all wrapped up in, um, in this one effort. So, so to me, it's exciting to sort of flex in all of those different ways.

   25. LFLex Fridman19:25

       Yeah, like you said, it's dreams realized, hard work realized, um, s- I mean, probably on the bridge side is why I love the function, in terms of function being primary. You just think of, like, the millions-

   26. ITIvanka Trump19:39

       Oh my gosh, look at that.

   27. LFLex Fridman19:40

       ... of, of br- bridges, uh ...

   28. ITIvanka Trump19:43

       Go, go down. You had ... Look at that. (laughs)

   29. LFLex Fridman19:48

       Yeah, this is Devil's Bridge in Germany.

   30. ITIvanka Trump19:50

       Yeah. I wouldn't say it's, like, the most practical design. (laughs)
4. 21:45 – 30:01

   Philosophy of design

   1. ITIvanka Trump21:45

      so.

   2. LFLex Fridman21:45

      What, in general, is your philosophy, philosophy of design and building and architecture?

   3. ITIvanka Trump21:51

      Well, some of the most recent projects I, I worked on prior to government service were the Old Post Office Building-

   4. LFLex Fridman21:59

      Mm-hmm.

   5. ITIvanka Trump21:59

      ... and almost simultaneously Trump Doral in Miami. So these were both two just massive undertakings, both redevelopments, which, in a lot of cases, having worked on ground-up construction, redevelopment projects are, in a lot of ways, much more complicated because you have existing attributes, but also a lot of limitations you have to work within, especially when you're repurposing a use. So, so this, um, the Old Post Office Building on Pennsylvania Avenue was-

   6. LFLex Fridman22:31

      So beautiful.

   7. ITIvanka Trump22:32

      It's unbelievable. So this was Romanesque Revival building, um, built in the 1890s on America's Main Street to symbolize American grandeur, and, um, at the time, there were post office being built in, in the style across the country, but this being really the defining one. Still, to this day, the tallest habitable structure in Washington, um, the tallest structure being the monument, the nation's only vertical park, which is that clock tower, but you've got these thick granite walls, those carved granite turrets, um, just, just an unbelievable building. You've got this massive, um, atrium that, that runs through the whole, um, center of it that is, is topped with glass, so, so having the opportunity to, to spearhead a project like that was, was so exciting, and actually, it was my first renovation project. (laughs) So I, I came to it with a tremendous amount of energy, uh, vigor, and, and humility, um, about how to do it properly, ensuring I had all the right people. We had countless federal and local government agencies that would oversee every single decision we made, but in advance of even having the opportunity to do it, there was a close to two-year request for proposal, like, a process that was put out by, um, the General Services Administration. So it was this really arduous government procurement process that we were competing against so many different people for the opportunity, um, which a lot of people said it was a gigantic waste of time, but I looked at that and I think so did a lot of the other bidders and say, "It's worth trying to put the best vision forward." And-

   8. LFLex Fridman24:18

      So you fell in love with this project, right, 'cause-

   9. ITIvanka Trump24:20

      I fell in love. Yeah.

   10. LFLex Fridman24:21

       So what ... is there some-... interesting details about what it takes to do renovation. Is there... About some, some of the challenges or opportunities 'cause you, you wanna maintain the beauty of the old.

   11. ITIvanka Trump24:34

       Yeah.

   12. LFLex Fridman24:35

       And now, like, upgrade the functionality, I guess, and maybe modernize some aspects of it without destroying what made the, the building magical in the first place.

   13. ITIvanka Trump24:48

       So I think the greatest asset was already there.

   14. LFLex Fridman24:51

       Mm-hmm.

   15. ITIvanka Trump24:53

       The exterior of the building, which we meticulously restored and any addition to it had to be done sort of very gently, um, in terms of any signage additions, and, um, the interior spaces were completely dilapidated. It had been a post office and we u- was used for a really run-down food court and government office spaces. It was actually losing six million dollars a year, um, when, when we got, um, the concession to, to build it and, and when we won and, and became one of, I think, a great example of public-private partnerships working together. But the, I think the biggest challenge in having such a radical use conversion is just how you lay it out. So the amount of time I would get on that Acela twice a week, um, three times a week to spend day trips down in Washington and we would walk every single inch of the building, laying out the floor plans, debating over the configuration of a room. There are almost 300 rooms and there were almost 300 layouts. So nothing could be repeated. Uh...

   16. LFLex Fridman26:06

       Wow.

   17. ITIvanka Trump26:06

       ... whereas when you have, when you're building from scratch, you tend, you know, you have a box and you decide where you wanna add, you know, potential elements and, um, and you kind of can stack the floor plan all the way up. But when you're working within a building like this, every single room was different. You see the setbacks, so the setback then required you to move the plumbing. So th- there was no, um... It was really a labor of love and to do something like this and th- and that's why I think renovation, we had it with Doral as well. It was 700 rooms over, um, over 650 acres of, of property. And so every single unit was, was very different and complicated. Not, not as complicated in some ways. It... The scale of it was so massive, but not as complicated as the old post office, but it required a level of, of precision. And I think in real estate, you have a lot of people who design on plan, um, and a lot of people who are in the business of sort of acquiring and flipping. So it's more financial engineering than it is building, and they don't spend the time sort of sweating these details that make something great and make something functional and you feel it in the end result. Um, but I, I mean, blood, sweat, tears, years of my life for...

   18. LFLex Fridman27:30

       (laughs)

   19. ITIvanka Trump27:30

       ... for those projects and, and it was worth it. I, I enjoyed almost (laughs) , I enjoyed almost every minute of it.

   20. LFLex Fridman27:37

       So to you, it's not about the flipping. To you, b- it's about the art of the... And the function of the thing that you're creating.

   21. ITIvanka Trump27:44

       100%.

   22. LFLex Fridman27:45

       What's design on plan? I'm learning new things today.

   23. ITIvanka Trump27:49

       Um, when, when proposals are put forth by an architect and, and really just the plan is accepted without... And in the case of a renovation, like if you're not walking those rooms... The number of times a beautifully laid out room was on a blueprint and then I'd go to Washington and I'd walk that floor and I'd realize that there was a column that ran right up through the middle of the space where, you know, the bed was supposed to be or the toilet was supposed to be or, um, or the shower. So there's a lot of things that are missed, um, when you do something conceptually without sort of rooting it in, um, in the actual structure. And that's why I think even, you know, with ground-up construction as well, people who aren't constantly on their job sites, constantly walking the projects, there's just a lot that's... There's a lot that's missed.

   24. LFLex Fridman28:41

       I mean, there's a wisdom to the, the idea that we talked about before, live with the materials and walking the construction site, walking the rooms. I mean, that's what you hear from people like Steve Jobs, like Elon.

   25. ITIvanka Trump28:54

       Yeah.

   26. LFLex Fridman28:54

       That's why you live on a factory floor.

   27. ITIvanka Trump28:56

       Yeah.

   28. LFLex Fridman28:56

       That's why you constantly obsess about the details, the actual- not of the, the plans, but the physical reality of the product. I mean, the, the insanity of Steve Jobs and Jony Ive working together on, like, making it perfect. Making the iPhone, the early designs, prototypes, making that perfect, like what it actually feels like in the hand. You have to be there, like, as close to the metal as possible to truly understand.

   29. ITIvanka Trump29:24

       And you have to love it in order to do that.

   30. LFLex Fridman29:26

       Right. It, it shouldn't be about the, how much it's going to sell for, all that kind of stuff.
5. 30:01 – 53:07

   Lessons from mother

   1. ITIvanka Trump30:01

      great.

   2. LFLex Fridman30:01

      If we go back to that young Ivanka, the, uh, the confidence of youth and, uh, if we could talk about your mom. She had a big influence on you. You told me she was an adventurer.

   3. ITIvanka Trump30:15

      Yeah.

   4. LFLex Fridman30:15

      Uh, Olympic skier and a businesswoman. Uh, wh- what did you learn about life from your mother?

   5. ITIvanka Trump30:22

      So much. Um...She passed away two years ago now. And, um, she was a remarkable, remarkable woman. She was a trailblazer in so many different ways. Um, as an athlete in, growing up in communist Czechoslovakia, as, um, a fashion mogul, as a real estate executive and, and builder, um, just this all around trailblazing businesswoman. I also learned from her, you know, aside from, from that element, how to really enjoy life. You know, I look back and some of my happiest memories of her are in the ocean, you know, just lying on our back, um, looking up at the sun and just so, so in the moment. Or dancing. She loved to dance, so she (laughs) , um, she really taught me a lot about living life to its fullest, and, um, and she had so much courage, so much conviction, so much energy, um, and a complete comfort with who she was.

   6. LFLex Fridman31:27

      What do you think about that, I mean, an Olympic athlete, the trade-off between, like, ambition and just wanting to do big things and pursuing that and giving your all to that, and being able to relax and just throw your arms back and enjoy the mo- every moment of life. What, like that trade-off?

   7. ITIvanka Trump31:47

      Yeah.

   8. LFLex Fridman31:48

      What, what do you think about that trade-off?

   9. ITIvanka Trump31:51

      I think because she was this unbelievable, formidable athlete, and because of the discipline she had as a child, I think it made her value those moments more as an adult. I think she was a great balance of the two that we all hope to find, and she was able to find both incredibly serious and formidable. I remember as a little girl I used to literally traipse behind her, um, at the Plaza Hotel, which, um, she oversaw and actually kind of was her old post office. It was this unbelievable historic hotel in, in New York City. And I'd follow her around at construction meetings and on job sites and, um, there she is, dancing. See?

   10. LFLex Fridman32:37

       (laughs)

   11. ITIvanka Trump32:37

       (laughs) .

   12. LFLex Fridman32:39

       Yeah.

   13. ITIvanka Trump32:39

       That's funny that that's the picture you pull up.

   14. LFLex Fridman32:41

       (laughs) I'm sorry.

   15. ITIvanka Trump32:41

       That's great.

   16. LFLex Fridman32:42

       The two of you just look great in that picture. (laughs)

   17. ITIvanka Trump32:43

       That's great. She had such a, a joy to her, and she was so unabashed in her perspective, in her opinions, I mean, you know, she made my father look reserved. (laughs)

   18. LFLex Fridman32:57

       (laughs)

   19. ITIvanka Trump32:58

       So whatever she was feeling, what, she was just very expressive, um, and, and a lot of fun to be around.

   20. LFLex Fridman33:05

       So she, uh, as you mentioned, uh, grew up during the, the Prague Spring in, uh, 1968, and that had a big impact on human history. I mean, my, my family came from the Soviet Union, and then, you know, the 20th century, the story of the 20th century is a lot of Eastern Europe, uh, the Soviet Union tried, uh, the ideas of, um, of communism, and it turned out that a lot of those ideas resulted into a lot of suffering. So why do you think the communist ideology failed?

   21. ITIvanka Trump33:39

       I think fundamentally, as people we desire freedom, we want agency, you know, and, and my mom was like a lot of other people who grew up in, in similar situations, where she didn't like to talk about it that often.

   22. LFLex Fridman33:53

       Mm-hmm.

   23. ITIvanka Trump33:54

       So one of my real regrets is that I didn't push her harder, you know, so... But I think back to the conversations we did have and, and I try to imagine what it's like. She was at Charles University in, in, in Prague, which was really like a focal point of, um, of the reforms that were ushered in during the Prague Spring and the liberalization agenda that was happening. The dance halls were opening, the student activists, and, and she was attending university there right at that same time. So the, the contrast to this feeling of freedom and progress and liberalization in the spring, and then it so quickly being crushed in the fall of that same year when the Warsaw Pact countries and, uh, and the Soviet Union rolled in to, to put down and, and ultimately roll back all those reforms. So for her to have lived through that, you know, she didn't come to North America until she was, uh, 23 or 24, so that was her life. As, um, as, as a young girl she was on the junior national ski team for Czechoslovakia. My, my grandfather used to train her. They used to put the skis on her back and walk up the mountain, um, in Czechoslovakia because there were no, there were no ski lifts. She actually made me do that when I was a child (laughs) -

   24. LFLex Fridman35:24

       (laughs)

   25. ITIvanka Trump35:24

       ... um, just to, to let me know, uh, what her experience had been. If I complained that it was cold out, she's like, "Well, you didn't have to walk up the mountain. You'd be, you'd be plenty warm if you had carried the skis up on your back (laughs) and, uh, up the last run."

   26. LFLex Fridman35:39

       I feel like they made people tougher back then. Like, my, my grandma, and you mentioned, it's funny, they, they go through some of the darkest things that a human being can go through and they don't talk about it, and they have a general positive outlook on life, like, uh, that's deeply rooted in the knowledge of what life could be.

   27. ITIvanka Trump35:59

       Yeah.

   28. LFLex Fridman35:59

       Like how bad it could get. My grandma survived, uh, Holodomor in Ukraine, which is, was the mass starvation brought on by the, the collectivist policies of the Stalin regime, and then she survived the Nazi occupation of Ukraine, never talked about it, probably went through extremely dark, extremely difficult times, and then just always had a positive outlook on life, and also made me do-... very difficult physical activity like you just mentioned. (laughs) Just to-

   29. ITIvanka Trump36:31

       (laughs)

   30. LFLex Fridman36:31

       ... to humble you.
6. 53:07 – 1:01:39

   Lessons from father

   1. LFLex Fridman53:07

      What about your dad? Growing up, what did you learn about life from your father?

   2. ITIvanka Trump53:13

      I think my father's sense of humor is sometimes underappreciated.

   3. LFLex Fridman53:16

      (laughs)

   4. ITIvanka Trump53:17

      Uh, so he had an amazing, and has an amazing sense of humor. He loved music. I, I think my, my mom loved music as well, but, you know, my father always used to say that in another life, he would have been a Broadway musical producer. (laughs)

   5. LFLex Fridman53:32

      (laughs)

   6. ITIvanka Trump53:32

      Which is hilarious to think about, but he loves, he loves music. I... (laughs)

   7. LFLex Fridman53:38

      (laughs) Tha- that is funny to think about.

   8. ITIvanka Trump53:40

      Right? He does... Now, he DJs at Mar-a-Lago.

   9. LFLex Fridman53:43

      Nice.

   10. ITIvanka Trump53:43

       So people get a sense of... You know, he loves Andrew Lloyd Webber and all of it, Pavarotti, Elton John. I mean, these were the same songs on repeat my whole childhood, so... (laughs)

   11. LFLex Fridman53:56

       (laughs)

   12. ITIvanka Trump53:56

       I know the playlist.

   13. LFLex Fridman53:58

       Probably Sinatra and all that too.

   14. ITIvanka Trump53:59

       Loves Sinatra, loves Elvis, you know, a lot of, a lot of the greats. So, I, I think I got a little bit of my love for music from, from him, but my mom shared that, um, as well. I think, um, one of the things, you know, in, in, in looking back that I think I inherited from my father as well is this sort of, um, interest or understanding of the importance of asking questions and specifically questions of the right people. And I saw this a lot on, on job sites. So, I remember, uh, with the old post office building, there was this massive glass-topped atrium.So heating and cooling the structure was like a Herculean lift. Um, we had the mechanical engineers provide their thoughts on how we could do it efficiently and, um, and so that the temperature never varied. And it was enormously expensive, um, uh, as an, as an undertaking. And I remember one of his first times on, on the site because, you know, he had really empowered me, um, with this project and he trusted me to, to execute and to also, you know, rope him in when I needed it. But one of the first time he visits, we're walking the hallway and we're talking about how expensive this cooling system would be and heating system would be, and he starts stopping and he's asking duct workers as, as we walk what they think of the system that the mechanical engineers designed. First few, fine, you know, not great answers. The third guy goes, "Sir, if you want me to be honest with you, it's obscenely overdesigned. In the circumstance of a 1,000-year storm, you will have the exact tem- perfect temperature if there's a massive blizzard or if it's unbearably hot. But 99.9% of the time, you'll never need it. And, um, and so I think it's just a, an enormous waste of money." And so he kept asking that guy questions and we ended up overhauling the design pretty well into the process of the whole system, saving a lot of money, creating a great system that's super functional, and, um, so I, I learned a lot and that's just one example of countless. That one really sticks out in my head because I'm like, "Oh my gosh, we're redesigning the whole system."

   15. LFLex Fridman56:21

       Mm-hmm.

   16. ITIvanka Trump56:21

       You know, we were actively under construction, so it was, um... But I would see him do that on a lot of different issues. He, he would ask people on the work level what their thoughts were, ideas, concepts, designs. And, um, there was almost like a Socratic sort of first principles type of way he, he questioned people, trying to get down to sort of trying to reduce complex things to something really fundamental and, and, and simple. So I, I try to do that myself to the, to the best I can and I think it's something I very much learned from him.

   17. LFLex Fridman57:01

       Yeah. I've seen great engineers, great leaders do just that is Elon do that a lot, which is basically ask questions, uh, to push simplification.

   18. ITIvanka Trump57:13

       Yeah.

   19. LFLex Fridman57:13

       Can we do this simpler? And like why... The basic question is like, "Why are we doing it this way? Can this be done simpler?"

   20. ITIvanka Trump57:19

       Yeah.

   21. LFLex Fridman57:20

       And not taking as an answer that this is how we've always done it, sort of not, not allowing yourself... Like, it doesn't matter that's how we've always done it. What is the right way to do it? And what is... And usually the simpler it is, the more correct a way.

   22. ITIvanka Trump57:37

       Yeah.

   23. LFLex Fridman57:37

       Has to do with cost, has to do with simplicity of, uh, of production manufacture, but usually simple is best.

   24. ITIvanka Trump57:44

       And it's oftentimes not the architecture and the engineers. It's, you know, in Elon's case, probably the line worker who sees things-

   25. LFLex Fridman57:51

       Yes.

   26. ITIvanka Trump57:51

       ... more clearly. So I think making sure it's not just that you're asking good questions. You're asking the right people those same good questions.

   27. LFLex Fridman57:59

       That's why, like, uh, a lot of the Elon companies are really flat in terms of, uh, organizational design where the, the, any- anybody on the factory floor can talk directly to Elon. Th- there's no-

   28. ITIvanka Trump58:11

       (laughs) .

   29. LFLex Fridman58:12

       There's not the, there's not this managerial class, this hierarchy where you have to travel up and down the hierarchy, which large companies often construct this hierarchy of managers where no one manager, if you ask them the, the question of like, "What have you done this week?" The answer is like, "It's really hard to come up with." Usually it's gonna be a bunch of paperwork.

   30. ITIvanka Trump58:33

       Yeah.
7. 1:01:39 – 1:12:35

   Fashion

   1. ITIvanka Trump1:01:39

   2. LFLex Fridman1:01:39

      So amongst many other things, you created a fashion brand. What was that about? (laughs)

   3. ITIvanka Trump1:01:47

      (laughs)

   4. LFLex Fridman1:01:47

      What was the origin of that?

   5. ITIvanka Trump1:01:49

      I always loved fashion, um, as a form of self-expression, as a means to, to communicate either a truth or an illusion, depending on what kind of mood you were in. But, um, this, like, sort of second body, if you will. So I loved fashion and, look, I mean, my mother was, um, a big part of the reason I did, but I never thought I would go into fashion. In fact, I was graduating from Wharton, um, it was the day of my graduation, and Anna Wilt- Winter calls me up and, um, and offered me a job at Vogue, which is a dream in so many ways. But I was so focused. I, I wanted to go into real estate and I wanted to build buildings, and, um, and I, and I told her that. So I, I really thought that that was going to be the path I was taking. And then, very organically, fashion, you know, it was part of my life, but it came, it came into my life in a, in a more professional capacity, um, by talking with my first of, of many different partners that I had in the fashion space about... He, he actually had shown me a building, um, to buy. His family had some real estate holdings. And, and I passed on, on the real estate deal, but we forged a friendship and we started talking about how in the space that he was in, fine jewelry, there was this lack of product and brands that were positioned for self-purchasing females. So everything was about, you know, the man buying the Christmas gift, the man buying the engagement ring. The stores felt like that. They were all tailored towards the male aesthetic. The marketing felt like that. And, and what about the woman who had a salary and was really excited to buy herself a great pair of earrings or, um, or had just received a great bonus and, and was gonna use it to, to treat herself? So we thought there was a void in the marketplace, and, um, and that was the first category I launched, Ivanka Trump Fine Jewelry, and we just caught lightning in a bottle. It was really quickly after that I met my partner, who had founded Nine West Shoes, really capable partner, and we launched, um, a shoe collection, which, which took off and, uh, did enormously well, and then a clothing collection and handbags and sunglasses and fragrance. So, so we caught a moment and, um, and we found a positioning for this, for the self-purchasing multidimensional woman, and we made dressing for work aspirational. At the time we launched, if you wanted to buy something for an office context, like, the brands that existed were the opposite of exciting. Like, nobody was, you know, taking pictures of, like, what they were wearing to work and, um, and, and posting it online with some of these classic legacy brands. Really, it felt very much like it was designed by a team of men for what a woman would want to wear to the office.

   6. LFLex Fridman1:04:50

      Yes.

   7. ITIvanka Trump1:04:50

      So we started creating this clothing that was feminine, that was beautiful, that was versatile, that would take a woman from, uh, the boardroom to an after-school soccer game to, um, a date night with a boyfriend to, uh, to a walk in the park with her husband. Like, all the, the different ways women live their lives and creating a wardrobe for that woman who works at every aspect of their life, not just sort of the siloed professional part. And, and it was, it was really compelling. We started creating great brand content, and we had incredible, um, contributors like Adam Grant, who was, um, who was blogging for us at the time, and, and creating aspirational content for, for working women. It was actually, uh, kind of a funny story, but I now had probably close to 11 different product categories, and we were growing like wildfire, and I started to think about what would be a compelling way to sort of create interesting content for the people who were buying these, um, these different categories. And, and we came up with a website called Women Who Work, and I went to a marketing agency, you know, one of the fancy firms in New York, and I said, "You know, we want to create a brand campaign around this multidimensional woman who works, and, um, and what do you think? Like, can you help us?" And they come back and they say, "You know what? We don't like the word 'work.' We think it should be 'Women Who Do.'"

   8. LFLex Fridman1:06:18

      Mm-hmm.

   9. ITIvanka Trump1:06:19

      And I just started laughing because I'm like-

   10. LFLex Fridman1:06:21

       (laughs)

   11. ITIvanka Trump1:06:21

       (laughs) Women who do? And the fact that they couldn't conceive-

   12. LFLex Fridman1:06:25

       Yeah.

   13. ITIvanka Trump1:06:25

       ... of it being sort of exciting and aspirational and interesting, um, to sort of lean into to working at, at all aspects of our lives was just fascinating to me, but showed there, that was part of the problem. And, and I think that's why ultimately, I mean, when...... the business grew to be hundreds of millions of dollars in, in sales. We were distributed, uh, at all the best retailers across the country from, you know, Neiman Marcus to Saks to, um, to Bloomingdale's and beyond. And, and I think we... it really resonated with people in, in an amazing way and, and probably not dissimilar to how I have this incredible experience every time somebody comes up to me and tells me that, um, that they were married in a space that I had painstakingly designed. I have that experience now with, with my fashion company. The number of women who will come up, tell me that they, they loved my shoes or they loved the handbags. And I've had women show me their engagement rings, they got engaged with us and, um, it's really rewarding. It's really beautiful.

   14. LFLex Fridman1:07:32

       Yeah, when I was hanging out with you in Miami, the number of women that came up to you saying they love the, the clothing, they love the shoes is awesome.

   15. ITIvanka Trump1:07:41

       All, all these years later. It's amazing.

   16. LFLex Fridman1:07:42

       All these years later.

   17. ITIvanka Trump1:07:43

       Yeah.

   18. LFLex Fridman1:07:44

       What does it take to make a shoe where somebody would come up to you years later and just be just full of love for this thing you've created? What's, what's that mean? Like what does it take to do that?

   19. ITIvanka Trump1:07:56

       Well, I still wear the shoes, so... (laughs)

   20. LFLex Fridman1:07:58

       (laughs) I mean, that's a good starting point, right? Is you create a thing that you want to wear.

   21. ITIvanka Trump1:08:02

       I feel like the, the product... I think first and foremost you have to have the, the right partner. So shoe... Building a shoe, if you talk to a great shoe designer, it's like, it's architecture. Like making a heel that's four inches that feels good to walk in for eight hours a day?

   22. LFLex Fridman1:08:18

       Mm-hmm.

   23. ITIvanka Trump1:08:18

       That is an engineering feat. And, uh, so I found great partners in everything that I did. My, my shoe partner, um, had founded Nine West, so he really knew what went into making a shoe wearable and comfortable. And then you overlay that with great design and, uh, and we also created this really comfortable, beautifully designed, super feminine, um, product offering that was also affordably priced. So I think it was, like, the trifecta of those, of those three things that, that made, that... I think it made it stand out for so many people.

   24. LFLex Fridman1:08:53

       Can you speak to... I don't know if it's possible to articulate, but can you speak to the process you go through from idea to the final thing? Like what you go through to bring an idea to life?

   25. ITIvanka Trump1:09:06

       So not being a designer, and this was true in real estate as well, I was never the architect, so I didn't necessarily have the pen, and in, in fashion the same. I was kind of like a conductor. (laughs) I was... I knew what I liked and didn't like, and I think that's really important, and that became honed for me over time. So I would have to sit a lot longer with something earlier on than later when I had more res- refined my aesthetic point of view. And so I think first of all you have to have a pretty strong sense of, um, of what resonates with you. And, and then as, in the case of, of my fashion business, as it grew and became, um, quite a large business and I had so many different categories, everything had to work together. So I had individual partners for each category, but if we were selling at Neiman Marcus we couldn't have a pair of shoes that didn't relate to a dress that didn't relate to a pair of sunglasses and handbags all on the same floor. So, you know, in the beginning, it was much more collaborative, um, as time passed, I, I really sort of took the point on deciding and... This is the aesthetic for the season, these are the colors we're gonna use, these are fabrics, and then working with our partners on the execution of that, but I, I needed to create an overlay that allowed for cohesion as the collection grew and... And that was actually really fun for me because that was a little different. You know, I was typically initially responding to things that were put in front of me and towards the end I was... It was my partners who were responding to the things that myself and my team... But it's still, it's... You know, I would always, I always wanted to bring the best talent and so I was, I was hiring great designers and printmakers and, um, and copywriters and so I had this... You know, almost like that conductor analogy. I had this incredible group of, in this case, women assembled who, who had very strong points of view, um, themselves and, and it created an, a great team.

   26. LFLex Fridman1:11:15

       So yeah, I mean, great team is really sort of essential. It's, it's, it's the essential thing behind any successful story.

   27. ITIvanka Trump1:11:21

       100%.

   28. LFLex Fridman1:11:21

       But there's this thing of taste which is really interesting because it's hard to kind of articulate what it takes, but basically knowing A versus B, what looks good, or without A/B comparison to say like, "If we did... If we changed this part, that would make it better." That sort of designer taste that's hard to make explicit what that is, but the great designers, like, have that taste, like, "This is gonna look good." And it's not actually, again, the Steve Jobs thing, it's not the op- opinion p- Like you can't, uh, poll people and ask them what looks better. It's you got... You have to have the vision of that.

   29. ITIvanka Trump1:12:03

       Yeah.

   30. LFLex Fridman1:12:04

       And as you said, you also have to develop eventually the confidence that your taste is, is good such that you can, like, curate, you d- can direct teams, you can argue that, "No, no, no, this is right," even when there's several people that say this doesn't make any sense. If you have that vision, have the confidence-
8. 1:12:35 – 1:23:44

   Hotel design

   1. ITIvanka Trump1:12:35

      And I think one of the things I love most about all of these creative pursuits is that ability to, to work with the best people.Right now, I'm, um, working with my husband. We have this 1,400-acre island in the Mediterranean, and we're building... bringing in the best architects and the best brands and... But to have a point of view and to challenge people who are such artists, respectfully, um, but not to be afraid to, to ask questions, it takes a lot of confidence to do that. Um, and, and it's hard. So these are actually just internal early renderings. So we're in the process of doing the master planning now, but...

   2. LFLex Fridman1:13:14

      But this is beautiful.

   3. ITIvanka Trump1:13:15

      It's-

   4. LFLex Fridman1:13:15

      I mean, it's, it's on the side of a mountain. (laughs)

   5. ITIvanka Trump1:13:16

      Yeah, this is an early vision. Yeah. It's gonna be extraordinary. Amman's gonna operate the hotel for us, and they're gonna be villas, and, uh, we have Carbone, who's gonna be doing the food and beverage, and... But it's, it's amazing to bring together all of this talent, and for me to be able to play around and flex the, the real estate muscles again and, and have some fun with it is, is-

   6. LFLex Fridman1:13:38

      The real estate, the design, the, the art. How hard is it to bring something like that to life? 'Cause that's like, that looks surreal. Out of this world.

   7. ITIvanka Trump1:13:47

      Well, especially on an island, it's... (laughs)

   8. LFLex Fridman1:13:50

      (laughs)

   9. ITIvanka Trump1:13:50

      It's challenging, meaning the logistics of even getting the building materials to an island are no joke.

   10. LFLex Fridman1:13:55

       Yeah, yeah.

   11. ITIvanka Trump1:13:55

       But, um... (laughs) But we will execute on it, so. And it, it may not be this... This is sort of, as I said, early conceptual drawings, but it gives a sense of sort of wanting to ho- honor the topography that exists. And, um, you know, this is obviously very modern, but, um, making it feel right in terms of the context of, um, of the vegetation and, uh, and the terrain that exists is... And not just have, you know, a beautiful glass box. Obviously, you want glass, you wanna look out and see that gorgeous blue ocean. But, um, but how do you do that in a way that doesn't feel generic and isn't a squandered opportunity to create something new?

   12. LFLex Fridman1:14:38

       Yeah, and it's in- integrated with the natural landscape. It's, it's a celebration of the natural landscape around it. So I guess you start from this dreamlike... Because this feels like a dream. And then when you're faced with the reality of the building materials and all the actual constraints of the building, then it evolves from there, right?

   13. ITIvanka Trump1:14:53

       Yeah, and, and so much, I mean, so much of architecture you don't see, um, but it's decisions made. So how do you, how do you create independent structures where you look out of one and don't see the other?

   14. LFLex Fridman1:15:07

       Mm-hmm.

   15. ITIvanka Trump1:15:08

       You know, how do you ensure the, sort of the stacking, um, and the master plan works in a way that's harmonious, and view corridors and all of those elements? All of those components of decision-making are super appreciated, but not often thought about.

   16. LFLex Fridman1:15:25

       What's a view corridor?

   17. ITIvanka Trump1:15:26

       Like to make sure that the top unit, you're not looking out and seeing a whole bunch of units. You're looking out and seeing the ocean.

   18. LFLex Fridman1:15:33

       So you have to-

   19. ITIvanka Trump1:15:34

       So, that's where you take this, and then you start angling everything, and you start thinking about, well, in this context, do we have green roofs? So if there's any hint of a roof, it's camouflaged by vegetation that matches what already exists on the island.

   20. LFLex Fridman1:15:47

       (laughs)

   21. ITIvanka Trump1:15:47

       It's where the engineers become very important. (laughs)

   22. LFLex Fridman1:15:49

       Well, yeah. So there-

   23. ITIvanka Trump1:15:50

       How do you build into a mountainside, um, while being sensitive to, to the beauty and, of the island?

   24. LFLex Fridman1:15:56

       It's almost like a mathematical problem. I, I took a class, Computational Geometry, in grad school, where you have to think about, like, v- these view corridors. It's like a math problem.

   25. ITIvanka Trump1:16:06

       Yeah.

   26. LFLex Fridman1:16:06

       Well, but it's also an art problem, because it's not just about making sure that there's no occlusions to the view. You have to figure out when there is occlusions, like what is it, vegetation, is it... So you have to figure all that out. And there's probably... So every single, every single room, every single building is a, is a thing that adds extra complexity.

   27. ITIvanka Trump1:16:26

       And then the choices, like how does the sun rise and set?

   28. LFLex Fridman1:16:31

       Yeah.

   29. ITIvanka Trump1:16:31

       So how do you wanna angle the hotel in relation-

   30. LFLex Fridman1:16:35

       That's awesome.
9. 1:23:44 – 1:26:07

   Self-doubt

   1. LFLex Fridman1:23:44

      We were talking about on fashion having the confidence of taste to be able to sort of push through on this idea of design, but you've also mentioned, um, somebody you admire is Rick Rubin and his book, The Creative Act. It has some really interesting ideas and one of them is to accept, uh, self-doubt and imperfection. So is there some battle within yourself that you have on sort of, um, striving for perfection and for the confidence, and always kinda having it together versus like accepting that things are always going to be imperfect?

   2. ITIvanka Trump1:24:20

      I think every day. I think I wake up in the morning and, you know, I wanna be better. I wanna be a better mom, I wanna be a better wife, I wanna be more creative, I wanna be physically stronger. And, um, and so that very much lives within me all the time. You know, I think I, I also grew up in the context of being the child of two extraordinarily successful parents, and that could've been debilitating for me. And I saw that in a, in a lot of my friends who grew up in-... circumstances similar to that, they were afraid to try for fear of, of not measuring up. And I think somehow early on, I learned to kind of harness the fear of not being good enough-

   3. LFLex Fridman1:25:12

      Mm-hmm.

   4. ITIvanka Trump1:25:12

      ... not being competent enough, um, and I harnessed it to make me better, um, and, and to push me outside of my comfort zone. So, I think that's always lived with me, and, and, and I think it probably always will. I think you have to have humility in anything you do, that you could be better-

   5. LFLex Fridman1:25:33

      Mm-hmm.

   6. ITIvanka Trump1:25:33

      ... and, and strive for that. I think as you get older, it, it softens a little bit as you have more reps.

   7. LFLex Fridman1:25:41

      (laughs)

   8. ITIvanka Trump1:25:41

      (laughs) You know, as you have more examples of, of having been thrown in the deep end, um, and figured out how to swim. You, you get a little bit more comfortable in your sort of abstract competency. But if that fear is not in you, I think you're not challenging yourself enough.

   9. LFLex Fridman1:26:04

      Harness the fear.

10. 1:26:07 – 1:29:17

    Intuition

    1. LFLex Fridman1:26:07

       Um, the other thing he writes about is, um, intuition-

    2. ITIvanka Trump1:26:11

       Hmm.

    3. LFLex Fridman1:26:12

       ... that you need to trust your instincts and intuition. Uh, that's a very Rick Rubin thing-

    4. ITIvanka Trump1:26:18

       (laughs)

    5. LFLex Fridman1:26:19

       ... (laughs) to say. But so what percent of your decision-making is intuition, and what percent is through rigorous careful analysis, would you say?

Episode duration: 3:04:07