EVERY SPOKEN WORD
150 min read · 30,073 words- 0:00 – 1:18
Introduction
- JBJack Barsky
Something happened where they forced my hand. And this is the only time that a, a Soviet agent was anywhere near me on the territory of the United States. So I'm waiting for the A train on, on a dark morning still in Queens, and, uh, there's this, uh, man in a black trench coat comes up to me from my right, and he whispers into my ears, "You gotta come back, or else you're dead."
- LFLex Fridman
The following is a conversation with Jack Barsky, a former KGB spy, author of Deep Undercover, and the subject of an excellent podcast series called The Agent. There are very few people who have defected from the KGB and live to tell the story. It is one of the most powerful intelligence organizations in history. And this conversation gives a window into its operation, both from an ideological and psychological perspectives. But also it tells the story of a man who lived one heck of an incredible life. This is the Lex Fridman Podcast. To support it, please check out our sponsors in the description. And now, dear friends, here's Jack Barsky.
- 1:18 – 14:09
KGB
- LFLex Fridman
Let's start with a big basic question. What is the KGB? Komitet Gosudarstvennoy Bezopasnosti.
- JBJack Barsky
Right. So that is the Committee of, uh, State Security. Yeah. Bezopasnost, uh, this is a... Opasnost is a, a threat, right?
- LFLex Fridman
Threats. So-
- JBJack Barsky
Okay. And B-S means? Is-
- LFLex Fridman
Without.
- JBJack Barsky
Right. (laughs)
- LFLex Fridman
So, and I guess that directly translates to security, without threat.
- JBJack Barsky
So, and don't, don't exist anymore. It wa- was disbanded when the Soviet Union fell apart, and, uh, the successor, uh, agencies were... are now the SVR and, and the, uh, FSB. FSB supposedly the equivalent to the FBI, and SVR to CIA. But, uh, the SVR is, is relatively weak, and the FSB has, has taken on a lot of espionage and, um, you know, active measures, and th- they're much bigger and stronger. But the most capable intelligence agency in, in Russia is the, is, is the GRU, military intelligence.
- LFLex Fridman
That nobody knows very much about.
- JBJack Barsky
That's right. I, when I was in the KGB-
- LFLex Fridman
(laughs)
- JBJack Barsky
... I had no idea that there was military intelligence. Nobody ever mentioned anything like that. And by the way, I recently had a, uh, the pleasure to g- give a talk at the DIA. When they reached out to me, I didn't know they existed either.
- LFLex Fridman
Interesting. Yeah. That, that's always the question. If you want to be an intelligence agency, should the world know anything about you? Because in some sense, you want to create the legend in order to attract, uh, great competent individuals to work for you. But at the same time, you want it to be shrouded in complete mystery. If n- if nobody knows you exist, you might be able-
- JBJack Barsky
Right.
- LFLex Fridman
... to operate well as an, as an intelligence agency. That, that, that is fascinating. But FSB is the thing that carries the flag-
- JBJack Barsky
Right.
- LFLex Fridman
... of, o- of KGB. KGB being probably one of, if not the most, sort of infamous, famous, infamous, and powerful intelligence agencies ever.
- JBJack Barsky
In history, yes.
- LFLex Fridman
Ever.
- JBJack Barsky
Absolutely. 100%.
- LFLex Fridman
It was founded in 1954 after the death of Stalin. You've, uh, in writing your book, looked back at the predecessors of the history.
- JBJack Barsky
Right.
- LFLex Fridman
Is there some way in which the KGB is grounded in, um, the culture, the spirit, the soul of its predecessors?
- JBJack Barsky
Oh, absolutely. They just changed names, and they changed, uh, uh, personnel rather frequently, and that had, had something to do with, uh, Stalin's paranoia. From between 1923... And I don't remember what the... I think it may have been the NKVD at that time. It started as the Cheka, and then it became the, the GPU, GPU, the, uh-
- LFLex Fridman
It's three or four letter words.
- JBJack Barsky
... NKVD. Yes.
- LFLex Fridman
(laughs) Uh, keep changing them.
- JBJack Barsky
But, but with those name changes, you also had changes at the top. Between 1923 and 1953 when Stalin died, that is, uh, 30 years, they had eight heads of, uh, intelligence. And of, of those eight, six were executed when they were replaced. So that's an, um, that's an indication that, uh, you know, this was an, an organization that ate itself from the inside. The Soviet Union was the only dictatorship in history that did not rest its powers on the military. They rested its powers on the intelligence apparatus, and that thing was unstable. So you know where that leads. Eventually, if you rest your, your power on something that is made out of bricks that don't hold a lot of load, it will, it will fall apart.
- LFLex Fridman
On sand.
- JBJack Barsky
Yeah.
- 14:09 – 33:10
Communism
- LFLex Fridman
these ambitions sometimes do... uh, you know, the ambitions of empires sometimes do materialize in the growth and the building and the establishment of those empires, and those empires r- write the history books in- in such a way that we don't think of them as- as empires, or we certainly don't think of them as the bad guys. They write the history books, therefore they're the good guys. And right now, America has effectively written the book about the good guys. I happen to believe that book. But it's... we should be humbled and open-minded to realize that, uh, that is in fact what is happening, is effective empires write the history books, and tell us stories, and tell us propaganda, and tell us narratives that we believe because we are human beings and we love to get together and believe ideas. We love to dream of a beautiful world and try to build that beautiful world together. In the United States, that's a beautiful world, the freedom, of, uh, respect of human rights, of all men are created equal.
- JBJack Barsky
Yes.
- LFLex Fridman
Uh, pursuit of happiness. You know, it always sounds good. If you look at what the- the dream of communism is, it sure as heck, uh, in its words, on the surface, sounds good.
- JBJack Barsky
Yes.
- LFLex Fridman
Respect for the workers.
- JBJack Barsky
Yes.
- LFLex Fridman
The working class, the lower classes that have been trodden on, that have been stolen from by the powerful. They deserve to have the money, the power, the respect that they have earned through their hard work. Sounds great.
- JBJack Barsky
And everybody gets along, and w- we just have to... You know, uh, all men are wonderful people, and if they- if they go bad, it has something to do with the fact that they have- they have been oppressed, right? And, uh, that dream just, uh, never worked out. And even- even... it is, when you think about it, and I didn't think about it... Uh, w- when you're young, you know, you just, emotionally, you accept it. But when you think about it, somehow, uh, that new wonderful organization has to organize itself, even though Lenin predicted that the state eventually would go away. W- well, how does that- how does that work? Then you have, like, anarchy, right? (clears throat) You have to have an organization. And the only way to really organize a large number of people is with a hierarchy.
- LFLex Fridman
Mm-hmm.
- JBJack Barsky
So... And who gets to the top? The- the ones that are... that want to go to the top, the ones that believe in themselves, the ones- the ones that know better than everybody else. And once you have that hierarchy established, uh, there is no guarantee that it doesn't... that- that it won't go bad. And actually, when you look at, uh, history, every such hierarchy has gone bad. You know, when you look at Cuba, for instance, I believe Fidel Castro was a- an honest revolutionary. I do believe that. And so what did Cuba turn into?
- LFLex Fridman
Yeah, there's something about... and you speak about Vladimir Putin in this way, but let's step away from that for a second. Is there something about being an honest revolutionary that wants to do good f- for their country, and you start to believe that you know better than everyone else how to do good in the country?
- JBJack Barsky
Right.
- LFLex Fridman
And you very well might...
- JBJack Barsky
Mm-hmm.
- LFLex Fridman
... first, but then somehow that grows into a distortion field where you kno- y- you keep believing you know what's right.
- JBJack Barsky
Yeah.
- LFLex Fridman
And all the people who disagree with you, you stop seeing them...
- JBJack Barsky
Yeah.
- LFLex Fridman
... as having a point. You instead see them as, like, uh, um, evil manipulators...
- JBJack Barsky
Sure.
- LFLex Fridman
... of the truth that are actually trying to hurt people t- for their own greed, for their own power, and you will protect the people because you know what's good. In the case of Stalin, I- I mean, I don't know, but it seems like he really believed that communism would bring about a much better world. I mean, there was a sense the... you have to crack a few eggs to make an omelet.
- JBJack Barsky
Right.
- LFLex Fridman
This idea that, um...... sacrifices necessary to bring about a, uh, a greater world. And then the other aspect is, um, sort of ruling by terror.
- JBJack Barsky
Right. Right.
- LFLex Fridman
Creating terror as a justified political mechanism to achieve a better world. So it wasn't... I mean, perhaps he had to do that to be able to sleep at night with the atrocities he's committing. He see... I think he believed he will bring about a better world.
- JBJack Barsky
Yeah. And by the way, the terror didn't start with Stalin. It started right, uh, after the Bolsheviks took over, when, uh, uh, Lenin, uh, told, uh, Mr. Dzerzhinsky, Comrade Dzerzhinsky, to build the Cheka and then, uh, execute the... this is what he called it, the, the Red Terror. So-
- LFLex Fridman
Red Terror.
- JBJack Barsky
It, it... so the... at, at, at the birth of the Soviet Union, there was already terror, and it was deliberate. And it, uh, it, it also was... it wasn't just focused on the enemies. It was focused on whoever y- you didn't like. There wa- there was no rule of law. There was no, uh, there wa- there wa- there was no, no court cases, you know. People were just pulled out of their apartment and shot on sight. Yeah. And the... this was done by conv- revolutionaries who, who were convinced that eventually... you know, that th- these sacrifices had to be made, and eventually, that would lead to a much better planet.
- LFLex Fridman
And the populists believed this too, that those sacrifices... in part.
- JBJack Barsky
Yes.
- 33:10 – 39:57
Childhood
- LFLex Fridman
superstar. Let's go to your childhood. What's a fond memory, uh, from childhood that you have in being woken up to the beauty of this world, and sort of being curious about all the mysteries around you that I think ultimately lead to academic, um, success?
- JBJack Barsky
(laughs)
- LFLex Fridman
Or was it, or was it like-
- JBJack Barsky
The, the fon- the fondest memory that, that comes to mind-
- LFLex Fridman
(laughs)
- JBJack Barsky
... is my first kiss. (laughs)
- LFLex Fridman
How's that? Do, do you wanna go to the details of that? What-
- JBJack Barsky
(laughs)
- LFLex Fridman
... uh, what, what, what, what'd you make of that, uh, what'd you make of that kiss? What, what, what'd that teach-
- JBJack Barsky
Oh-
- LFLex Fridman
... you about yourself and human nature and all that?
- JBJack Barsky
It taught me only in hindsight. At the time, I was just like, my God, I was head over heels in love. I was 16 years old.
- LFLex Fridman
Yeah.
- JBJack Barsky
And, uh, I, I, I knew, uh, in those days, I admired girls. I, I knew that girls were like, uh, sort of, um, uh, magical beings. They were not capable of doing evil things.
- LFLex Fridman
Mm-hmm.
- JBJack Barsky
They were beautiful, and they had to be adored.
- LFLex Fridman
Yeah.
- JBJack Barsky
And one of them actually loved me too. She came after me initially.
- LFLex Fridman
Yeah.
- JBJack Barsky
Right?
- LFLex Fridman
And, and that was like, that was, that too was magical for you.
- JBJack Barsky
Oh my God, yeah.
- LFLex Fridman
(laughs)
- JBJack Barsky
Uh, and, and I literally, I, uh, dedicated... That's when I started studying. Up until that point, I just like did whatever I had to do to be an A-minus student, and that's when I started studying, and every A that I got, I dedicated to her, sometimes explicitly, uh, because I knew I was gonna take care of her, you know, when as I grow up.
- LFLex Fridman
So you're gonna have to work hard in-
- JBJack Barsky
Yes.
- LFLex Fridman
... this world to be somebody that could be adored by the, by those you love.
- JBJack Barsky
Yes, you're right. You know that, that kiss, (clears throat) (laughs) the, the next day, I was running around in school with a grin on my face. (laughs)
- LFLex Fridman
Yeah. And maybe that, in some way, that grin never fades. So, um, what about the heartbreak that followed?
- JBJack Barsky
(laughs) Well, the heartbreak followed.
- 39:57 – 1:18:30
Becoming a KGB agent
- LFLex Fridman
let's go to your story. So, um, in your book, Deep Undercover: My Secret Life Entangled: Uh, Allegiances as a KGB Spy in America, and in the really, really excellent podcast series that I've been listening to, it's... People should definitely listen to it. It's called The Agent. You document your time as a KGB spy before, during, and after. Can you tell the story of when you first were contacted by the KGB, those-
- JBJack Barsky
Right.
- LFLex Fridman
... uh, how you were in- invited, the offer to join was made?
- JBJack Barsky
Yeah. Well, (laughs) it was a big surprise, and I, I never thought of myself as a, as a potential agent, you know. I, I was gonna be a tenured professor, and join the ruling elite, because in, uh, in, in Europe, tenured professors are few. It's not like in the United States, you know, anybody who teaches at colleges has a, has the title of professor.
- LFLex Fridman
Easy now. (laughs)
- JBJack Barsky
(laughs) It's true.
- LFLex Fridman
Yes, yes.
- JBJack Barsky
That's not a criticism.
- LFLex Fridman
100%. So we should also clarify that tenured professor or not, it, it is a very prestigious position throughout history of Europe.
- JBJack Barsky
Yeah. Yeah.
- LFLex Fridman
Uh, and w- I would say especially communist... I, I don't actually know the full landscape of the respect, but at least in the Soviet Union where I grew up, it's pre- it's a prestigious position.
- JBJack Barsky
Absolutely was. Uh, and the, the town of Jena (clears throat) had about 100,000 people live there. And, um, (sighs) I would... it's a wild guess, but maybe 30 tenured professors, and they were part of the ruling elite. I was trying to do as much as I can to live the good life, right? You know, have access to things that, uh, that are nice.
- LFLex Fridman
Yeah, but I think the powerful thing about being a professor in that context of East Germany is the prestige.
- JBJack Barsky
And the feeling of superiority.
- LFLex Fridman
(laughs)
- JBJack Barsky
You know, I, I was full of myself. You know, when, when, when you are the best of the best, and I, and I... In my third year, I received a scholarship, uh, The Karl Marx Scholarship, uh, that was limited to 100 concurrent recipients in the country. So, my god, no- I, I was full of myself. I, I, I believed in myself hook, hook, line, and sinker. And, and, and I was also, uh, uh, this, uh... Uh, I got a lot of, uh, accolades from teachers and-... fellow students.
- LFLex Fridman
So they were feeding the ego, the old, I mean-
- JBJack Barsky
Yeah.
- LFLex Fridman
You, you have to believe in yourself, uh, often when you're young to truly, sort of-
- JBJack Barsky
Right. Right.
- LFLex Fridman
... to, to excel. And, and you sure as heck did. (laughs)
- JBJack Barsky
But, you know, as a balance, you need a mentor, somebody who puts things in perspective, and I didn't have one. My, my father was a n- non-entity, and nobody else... They, they all looked up to me.
- LFLex Fridman
Yeah.
- JBJack Barsky
I was an up-and-coming guy, right?
- LFLex Fridman
So there's no father figure that put you in your place to check-
- JBJack Barsky
Not at all. And, and I'll give you one extreme example. It was down the road when I fathered a child out of wedlock. W- Um, um, that was in my fifth year, I believe. The, the Communist Party in East Germany was, uh, very moralistic. If you did that, they would have a talk with you, and give you whatever, a severe reprimand. Nobody even mentioned a word about this. So yeah, so this is, this is how this ego gets, gets nurtured. But anyway, getting back to how the KGB, uh, uh, came in contact. So they most likely got, uh, knowledge of me by, you know, looking at, uh, Stasi, uh, records. The Stasi-
- LFLex Fridman
What's, what's Stasi?
- JBJack Barsky
Oh, th- that was East German secret police. Staatssicherheit, uh, uh, security, uh, for the state.
- LFLex Fridman
There's that word "security" again. (laughs)
- JBJack Barsky
And that they pretty much kept a record, uh, on, on everybody in the country. And, um, so when you, when you look through this and... And, and this is what the KGB was looking for. They were looking for candidates, particularly for this kind of job that they had in mind for me, for candidates, uh, who were not... You know, in their mid-20s, uh, who were not fully developed yet, but mature enough to, to get there.
- 1:18:30 – 1:32:19
Training
- JBJack Barsky
two years.
- LFLex Fridman
What was the training? What were the interesting aspects to the training? What, what were sort of, if you-
- JBJack Barsky
Okay.
- LFLex Fridman
... do an overview systematic of what was the training process, what was difficult-
- JBJack Barsky
Right.
- LFLex Fridman
... what are some insights that generalize to the training process of what it takes to be a KGB spy?
- JBJack Barsky
Right. So, uh, let me start with the trade craft.... so I was taught Morse code. That took a while. Uh, I- I- I was, uh, instructed in how to, you know, use a shortwave radio and to receive, uh, you- you- the- the shortwave, uh, transmissions with Morse code.
- LFLex Fridman
Mm-hmm.
- JBJack Barsky
I was taught, uh, uh, an- a encryption and decryption algorithm, manual a- algorithm.
- LFLex Fridman
Manually, yep.
- JBJack Barsky
You- you might be interested that eventually I figured out, uh, at least one of the patterns. Uh, the- the algorithm was such that the- and this was all about digits, like... Uh, a- and the algorithm was such that in the end, the- uh, the digits that were used to decipher other digits that were handed- th- th- that were sent to me via shortwave radio, there were... Let's say, if there were 100 digits, there were an equal number of ones, twos, threes, fours, fives, sixes, and seven-s, up until zero. And I was told that, uh, these, um, algorithms, these manual algorithms were- were good for about 300 uses. After that, they could still be deciphered. I'm assuming nowadays that wouldn't take as much. (laughs)
- LFLex Fridman
Yeah, yeah, with- with computers, for sure. But there's probably- uh, they're probably designed in a way that you can manually sort of, uh, it's efficient and convenient to use them manually.
- JBJack Barsky
Well, it's-
- LFLex Fridman
It's not to optimize cryptographic security. It's to optimize... It's, like, to balance security and, like, humans being able to actually...
- JBJack Barsky
Yeah. No, I got to disagree. It was neither efficient nor convenient.
- LFLex Fridman
Okay.
- JBJack Barsky
It w- took a long time.
- LFLex Fridman
So it wasn't designed well. (laughs)
- JBJack Barsky
Uh, when- what was- what was significantly easier to do, uh, but, uh, that would require you to have spy paraphernalia with you, this- this is what's called a one-time pad.
- LFLex Fridman
Uh-huh.
- JBJack Barsky
So you have the- the set of numbers-
- LFLex Fridman
Yeah.
- JBJack Barsky
... on- on a sheet of paper, uh, that had to be developed. I had to use iodine to make those numbers visible. Those are known to be, uh, unbreakable unless they are used multiple times, the same- the same sheet of paper.
- LFLex Fridman
Mm-hmm.
- JBJack Barsky
Because, you know, the person who encrypts has the same set of numbers as the person w- uh, who decrypts. And one- uh, o- one-time use, you cannot figure out wh- what the message is.
- LFLex Fridman
Oh, interesting. But this is a quick way to communicate from one person to another, one time.
- JBJack Barsky
Yes, the-
- LFLex Fridman
One time.
- JBJack Barsky
W- one time, but I had a pad with multiple, uh, sheets of paper, right?
- LFLex Fridman
Oh, okay.
Episode duration: 3:37:33
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