Jack Barsky: KGB Spy | Lex Fridman Podcast #301

Jack Barsky 0:00 Something happened where they forced my hand. And this is the only time that a, a Soviet agent was anywhere near me on the territory of the United States. So I'm waiting for the A train on, on a dark morning still in Queens, and, uh, there's this, uh, man in a black trench coat comes up to me from my right, and he whispers into my ears, "You gotta come back, or else you're dead."

Lex Fridman 0:32 The following is a conversation with Jack Barsky, a former KGB spy, author of Deep Undercover, and the subject of an excellent podcast series called The Agent. There are very few people who have defected from the KGB and live to tell the story. It is one of the most powerful intelligence organizations in history. And this conversation gives a window into its operation, both from an ideological and psychological perspectives. But also it tells the story of a man who lived one heck of an incredible life. This is the Lex Fridman Podcast. To support it, please check out our sponsors in the description. And now, dear friends, here's Jack Barsky.

Lex Fridman 1:18 Let's start with a big basic question. What is the KGB? Komitet Gosudarstvennoy Bezopasnosti.

Jack Barsky 1:25 Right. So that is the Committee of, uh, State Security. Yeah. Bezopasnost, uh, this is a... Opasnost is a, a threat, right?

Lex Fridman 1:33 Threats. So-

Jack Barsky 1:34 Okay. And B-S means? Is-

Lex Fridman 1:35 Without.

Jack Barsky 1:36 Right. (laughs)

Lex Fridman 1:37 So, and I guess that directly translates to security, without threat.

Jack Barsky 1:40 So, and don't, don't exist anymore. It wa- was disbanded when the Soviet Union fell apart, and, uh, the successor, uh, agencies were... are now the SVR and, and the, uh, FSB. FSB supposedly the equivalent to the FBI, and SVR to CIA. But, uh, the SVR is, is relatively weak, and the FSB has, has taken on a lot of espionage and, um, you know, active measures, and th- they're much bigger and stronger. But the most capable intelligence agency in, in Russia is the, is, is the GRU, military intelligence.

Lex Fridman 2:16 That nobody knows very much about.

Jack Barsky 2:18 That's right. I, when I was in the KGB-

Lex Fridman 2:20 (laughs)

Jack Barsky 2:20 ... I had no idea that there was military intelligence. Nobody ever mentioned anything like that. And by the way, I recently had a, uh, the pleasure to g- give a talk at the DIA. When they reached out to me, I didn't know they existed either.

Lex Fridman 2:34 Interesting. Yeah. That, that's always the question. If you want to be an intelligence agency, should the world know anything about you? Because in some sense, you want to create the legend in order to attract, uh, great competent individuals to work for you. But at the same time, you want it to be shrouded in complete mystery. If n- if nobody knows you exist, you might be able-

Jack Barsky 2:57 Right.

Lex Fridman 2:57 ... to operate well as an, as an intelligence agency. That, that, that is fascinating. But FSB is the thing that carries the flag-

Jack Barsky 3:06 Right.

Lex Fridman 3:06 ... of, o- of KGB. KGB being probably one of, if not the most, sort of infamous, famous, infamous, and powerful intelligence agencies ever.

Jack Barsky 3:19 In history, yes.

Lex Fridman 3:20 Ever.

Jack Barsky 3:20 Absolutely. 100%.

Lex Fridman 3:22 It was founded in 1954 after the death of Stalin. You've, uh, in writing your book, looked back at the predecessors of the history.

Jack Barsky 3:30 Right.

Lex Fridman 3:31 Is there some way in which the KGB is grounded in, um, the culture, the spirit, the soul of its predecessors?

Jack Barsky 3:43 Oh, absolutely. They just changed names, and they changed, uh, uh, personnel rather frequently, and that had, had something to do with, uh, Stalin's paranoia. From between 1923... And I don't remember what the... I think it may have been the NKVD at that time. It started as the Cheka, and then it became the, the GPU, GPU, the, uh-

Lex Fridman 4:07 It's three or four letter words.

Jack Barsky 4:08 ... NKVD. Yes.

Lex Fridman 4:09 (laughs) Uh, keep changing them.

Jack Barsky 4:10 But, but with those name changes, you also had changes at the top. Between 1923 and 1953 when Stalin died, that is, uh, 30 years, they had eight heads of, uh, intelligence. And of, of those eight, six were executed when they were replaced. So that's an, um, that's an indication that, uh, you know, this was an, an organization that ate itself from the inside. The Soviet Union was the only dictatorship in history that did not rest its powers on the military. They rested its powers on the intelligence apparatus, and that thing was unstable. So you know where that leads. Eventually, if you rest your, your power on something that is made out of bricks that don't hold a lot of load, it will, it will fall apart.

Lex Fridman 5:01 On sand.

Jack Barsky 5:02 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 5:02 Why was it unstable, would you say? What, what of human nature-

Jack Barsky 5:06 Oh, the para-

Lex Fridman 5:07 ... makes it unstable?

Jack Barsky 5:07 It's, it's the paranoia. It's, uh, you know, Stalin w- was always worried about, uh, you know, w- the, the m- most powerful people coming after him. So he proactively killed off heads of the KGB, and, uh, and he had this great purge where he got rid of a lot of his generals, you know, really capable generals. Uh, and, uh, that, that cost him dearly when World War II started, because, you know, he, he started off with a, with a, uh, a force that wasn't as capable as it could've been. Uh-

Lex Fridman 5:40 Was it paranoia at all levels? Or was it just-

Jack Barsky 5:43 I believe so. I believe so. It, it comes from the top. And so, if the top doesn't trust you, uh, you always have to worry about, um, the, your peers snitching on you.

Lex Fridman 5:56 Yeah.

Jack Barsky 5:56 Okay? So, so, and, and I think we have a very similar situation in Russia today. Uh, and, uh, and, and in this, in, in this kind of atmosphere-Um, the truth will never get to the top.

Lex Fridman 6:10 So no matter what moral rules the organization operates under, trust is fundamental to its, uh, competence.

Jack Barsky 6:19 Oh, absolutely. And I want to extend this to my own existence. Um... And this is kind of strange. It- it's- it's almost dichotomous, uh, because, you know, I was running around lying to everybody and, uh, you know, I couldn't fundamentally be trusted. But the relationship that I had with the KGB was based on trust. If they don't, if they don't trust me, they don't send me out. And if I don't trust them, I'm not going. And I eventually broke that trust. And they knew there was always a danger.

Lex Fridman 6:50 They knew that because something about you or just something about human beings that can be broken?

Jack Barsky 6:56 No, there were, there were (laughs) there were hints about, uh, uh, you know, how long my assignment would be, so 10 to 12 years. And you see, i- it makes sense, all right? I- I was becoming an American, and over time, I would become more and more American, and there was always a chance that I liked it more here than there, that- that I was really successful in what I was supposed to do. And it sort of happened, but in my case, it happened because of, uh, I fathered a child who- who I didn't want to leave when they wanted me back. So...

Lex Fridman 7:30 Love always screws up-

Jack Barsky 7:32 Oh (laughs) .

Lex Fridman 7:33 ... your (laughs) your employment competence. Yes.

Jack Barsky 7:36 You're absolutely right.

Lex Fridman 7:37 (laughs) Yeah.

Jack Barsky 7:39 S- so... But they thought, you know, that, um, I had an anchor at home because I had a wife and a son at home, which, uh, you know, you've got to worry about them, uh, if you defect-

Lex Fridman 7:52 Mm-hmm.

Jack Barsky 7:53 ... uh, because in the past, the KGB was- would go after- after family, ruthlessly.

Lex Fridman 8:01 Including perhaps violence?

Jack Barsky 8:03 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 8:03 This is a hard question about the KGB because it's one of the most ruthless organizations, but in general, um, are there lines, KGB agents at every level of the hierarchy, uh, that they would not cross, political, legal, ethical, or does anything goes to achieve the goal?

Jack Barsky 8:25 I was only, uh, uh, in touch with two types of agents as well, the technical experts, the ones that taught me tradecraft, uh, and they were like engineers and, uh, you know, they were in charge of the secret writing and the, uh, the- the Morse code, shortwave radio reception, decryption, encryption, and that kind of stuff. Um, those were just doing their job. All right? Uh, and the others, the ones that trained me, that, uh, prepared me for life in the United States, they were nice people. They were elegant people. I- I- I don't think... They- they would not, uh, um, fit into the stereotype of the ruthless gun-carrying agent.

Lex Fridman 9:19 Is it possible that you would not be aware of the parts of the KGB... I mean, it's very modular. Would you...

Jack Barsky 9:26 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 9:26 It's possible that you're not aware of the parts of the KGB that- that are the "muscle"?

Jack Barsky 9:31 Oh, I didn't know. I would find out afterwards, after I retired and started doing some research. I had no clue.

Lex Fridman 9:40 So you were kind of operating in a bubble.

Jack Barsky 9:42 Oh, very much so. I mean, this is what the KGB did really, really well, compartmentalization. Uh, and- and that, uh, was based on, you know, the communist movement while it was still underground. You know, the- the cells were very small and the... So that maybe there were three, four members in one cell that knew one another, and then they had a liaison to another cell. So when... The- the bottom line is if- if you got... One- one of those folks were caught, they could maybe betray four people or three, something like that. And- and the KGB continued with that tradition. Uh, I have reason to believe that the... My handler, the person in Moscow that sort of directed me and made decisions, uh, what to do and where to go, never met me personally. There's no reason to, right? Why would... So... Uh, and- and this- this, uh, actually, uh, was a big advantage over other intelligence services because, you know, you look at what the CIA does, everybody blabs. There's a lot of leaks coming out of American intelligence. I don't think there's as many leaks coming out of, uh, the Mossad.

Lex Fridman 10:54 Strong words from Jack Barsky, by the way.

Jack Barsky 10:56 (laughs)

Lex Fridman 10:56 So, I mean, that is a question I want to ask a little more systematically. Is there something unique about the KGB compared to the other intelligence agencies? Let's- let's talk, uh, the British Intelligence, MI6, Mossad, CIA. Is there unique cultures, spirits, souls of the different organizations that maybe somehow connect to the structures of government, connect maybe the- the values of the people, those kinds of things?

Jack Barsky 11:23 I believe we were all pretty much, uh, uh, strong, uh, believers in communism and the future of the world being-

Lex Fridman 11:31 In KGB?

Jack Barsky 11:32 Yes. I think that- that unified us, uh, to- to a large degree, even the technicians.

Lex Fridman 11:37 So even... It wasn't something like, "Yeah, yeah, the- the parents believe this thing, but we know the truth." You really believed the story of communism?

Jack Barsky 11:49 Absolutely did. And it... And you need to look at the- the time frame. Uh, the Soviet Union, uh, after World War II, made, uh, quite a bit of progress in, uh, uh, influencing the Third World. I still remember, uh, in... When I was in middle school, we had a map.... on the map of the world, and it was color-coded. So red was communism, that was the Soviet Union and- and the- the eastern states, and then blue was, uh, capitalism, and then...

Lex Fridman 12:19 (laughs)

Jack Barsky 12:19 ... then we had green, which were the Third World countries. And the green slowly turned pink, because a lot of Third World, uh, governments, like I'm looking at, uh, Angola.

Lex Fridman 12:29 Yeah.

Jack Barsky 12:29 I'm- I'm looking at, uh, um, Vietnam. You- you d- a lot of these countries, uh, were, uh, very sympathetic to- to, uh, the Soviet Union. And so we sort of knew that this would go on like that, and eventually we would take over and- and, you know, pretty much, uh, uh, overtake... That was- that- that was, uh, the- the myth, overtake the United States not only militarily but also i- in terms of industrial production and- and so forth. Uh, tha- that was a stupid pipe dream. The military, it was a standoff, as we know.

Lex Fridman 13:08 Well, uh, stupid pipe dream, um, Hitler had a stupid pipe dream...

Jack Barsky 13:16 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 13:16 ... that he executed exceptionally effectively and on. If not for, uh, a handful of military mistakes, the world could look very different today.

Jack Barsky 13:28 Well, the biggest one being invading the Soviet Union, particularly at the time that he did it, because he ran into the same thing that- uh, that Napoleon ran into, General Winter.

Lex Fridman 13:40 Well, within... So Operation Barbarossa, within that, he could have made different decisions, u- uh, for example, uh, attacking, skipping Kiev and attacking Moscow directly, overthrowing the government.

Jack Barsky 13:56 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 13:56 So marching... I guess that- that would be learning lessons from Napoleon as opposed to, um... as opposed to a different kind of distribution of forces and then getting bogged down in the winter. But the point is,

Lex Fridman 14:09 these ambitions sometimes do... uh, you know, the ambitions of empires sometimes do materialize in the growth and the building and the establishment of those empires, and those empires r- write the history books in- in such a way that we don't think of them as- as empires, or we certainly don't think of them as the bad guys. They write the history books, therefore they're the good guys. And right now, America has effectively written the book about the good guys. I happen to believe that book. But it's... we should be humbled and open-minded to realize that, uh, that is in fact what is happening, is effective empires write the history books, and tell us stories, and tell us propaganda, and tell us narratives that we believe because we are human beings and we love to get together and believe ideas. We love to dream of a beautiful world and try to build that beautiful world together. In the United States, that's a beautiful world, the freedom, of, uh, respect of human rights, of all men are created equal.

Jack Barsky 15:08 Yes.

Lex Fridman 15:09 Uh, pursuit of happiness. You know, it always sounds good. If you look at what the- the dream of communism is, it sure as heck, uh, in its words, on the surface, sounds good.

Jack Barsky 15:20 Yes.

Lex Fridman 15:20 Respect for the workers.

Jack Barsky 15:21 Yes.

Lex Fridman 15:22 The working class, the lower classes that have been trodden on, that have been stolen from by the powerful. They deserve to have the money, the power, the respect that they have earned through their hard work. Sounds great.

Jack Barsky 15:36 And everybody gets along, and w- we just have to... You know, uh, all men are wonderful people, and if they- if they go bad, it has something to do with the fact that they have- they have been oppressed, right? And, uh, that dream just, uh, never worked out. And even- even... it is, when you think about it, and I didn't think about it... Uh, w- when you're young, you know, you just, emotionally, you accept it. But when you think about it, somehow, uh, that new wonderful organization has to organize itself, even though Lenin predicted that the state eventually would go away. W- well, how does that- how does that work? Then you have, like, anarchy, right? (clears throat) You have to have an organization. And the only way to really organize a large number of people is with a hierarchy.

Lex Fridman 16:26 Mm-hmm.

Jack Barsky 16:26 So... And who gets to the top? The- the ones that are... that want to go to the top, the ones that believe in themselves, the ones- the ones that know better than everybody else. And once you have that hierarchy established, uh, there is no guarantee that it doesn't... that- that it won't go bad. And actually, when you look at, uh, history, every such hierarchy has gone bad. You know, when you look at Cuba, for instance, I believe Fidel Castro was a- an honest revolutionary. I do believe that. And so what did Cuba turn into?

Lex Fridman 17:01 Yeah, there's something about... and you speak about Vladimir Putin in this way, but let's step away from that for a second. Is there something about being an honest revolutionary that wants to do good f- for their country, and you start to believe that you know better than everyone else how to do good in the country?

Jack Barsky 17:20 Right.

Lex Fridman 17:20 And you very well might...

Jack Barsky 17:22 Mm-hmm.

Lex Fridman 17:22 ... first, but then somehow that grows into a distortion field where you kno- y- you keep believing you know what's right.

Jack Barsky 17:32 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 17:33 And all the people who disagree with you, you stop seeing them...

Jack Barsky 17:37 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 17:37 ... as having a point. You instead see them as, like, uh, um, evil manipulators...

Jack Barsky 17:44 Sure.

Lex Fridman 17:44 ... of the truth that are actually trying to hurt people t- for their own greed, for their own power, and you will protect the people because you know what's good. In the case of Stalin, I- I mean, I don't know, but it seems like he really believed that communism would bring about a much better world. I mean, there was a sense the... you have to crack a few eggs to make an omelet.

Jack Barsky 18:11 Right.

Lex Fridman 18:11 This idea that, um...... sacrifices necessary to bring about a, uh, a greater world. And then the other aspect is, um, sort of ruling by terror.

Jack Barsky 18:24 Right. Right.

Lex Fridman 18:24 Creating terror as a justified political mechanism to achieve a better world. So it wasn't... I mean, perhaps he had to do that to be able to sleep at night with the atrocities he's committing. He see... I think he believed he will bring about a better world.

Jack Barsky 18:41 Yeah. And by the way, the terror didn't start with Stalin. It started right, uh, after the Bolsheviks took over, when, uh, uh, Lenin, uh, told, uh, Mr. Dzerzhinsky, Comrade Dzerzhinsky, to build the Cheka and then, uh, execute the... this is what he called it, the, the Red Terror. So-

Lex Fridman 19:03 Red Terror.

Jack Barsky 19:04 It, it... so the... at, at, at the birth of the Soviet Union, there was already terror, and it was deliberate. And it, uh, it, it also was... it wasn't just focused on the enemies. It was focused on whoever y- you didn't like. There wa- there was no rule of law. There was no, uh, there wa- there wa- there was no, no court cases, you know. People were just pulled out of their apartment and shot on sight. Yeah. And the... this was done by conv- revolutionaries who, who were convinced that eventually... you know, that th- these sacrifices had to be made, and eventually, that would lead to a much better planet.

Lex Fridman 19:44 And the populists believed this too, that those sacrifices... in part.

Jack Barsky 19:48 Yes.

Lex Fridman 19:49 I mean, this is such a dark thing about dictatorships, is, you believe it, but you're also too afraid to question your beliefs. Like, you're not directly afraid, but almost like a... I don't know what that is, that's almost like a subconscious fear. Like, don't... there's a dark room with a locked door. Don't look in that door. Don't check that door.

Jack Barsky 20:14 Right.

Lex Fridman 20:14 And there's something about the United States that says, uh, (laughs) especially modern culture, say, "Go to that door first," and sort of, uh, question everything kind of, uh... that's the power of the freedom of speech and the freedom of the press. But you can get, um,... almost become too critical and too cynical of your own culture in that way. So there-

Jack Barsky 20:33 Right.

Lex Fridman 20:33 ... there's a balance to strike, of course.

Jack Barsky 20:35 Right.

Lex Fridman 20:35 But, man, the... is... if that's... if communism is not a lesson of human nature, I don't know what is. But you believed... without thinking too much about it, you believed-

Jack Barsky 20:44 Right.

Lex Fridman 20:44 ... in the-

Jack Barsky 20:45 Right.

Lex Fridman 20:45 ... in the story of co-... what, what did you see just... you know, I came from the Soviet Union. What did you maybe feel that's right and good about communism, about the vision of communism?

Jack Barsky 21:01 I-

Lex Fridman 21:01 What... could you remember, like-

Jack Barsky 21:02 I, I think the biggest impetus in, in, in me believing in communism was that com- the communists, when, when... just before Hitler took over, the communists were the only force in Germany that fought the Nazis in the streets. And that's hi- a historic truth.

Lex Fridman 21:24 Yes.

Jack Barsky 21:25 And, and communists were hu- hunted down by the Nazis, killed, uh, put in concentration camps. And so, what we knew, wh- when what we were taught, and I think that was a huge unforced error by the Western countries, particularly the United States, that there were ex-Nazis in the government in West Germany.

Lex Fridman 21:48 Yeah.

Jack Barsky 21:49 And, uh, the most famous one was, uh, uh, Reinhard Gehlen, who was in charge, was the general in charge of, uh, uh, the, uh, intelligence on the eastern front, under Hitler. And when, uh, the, uh, the Allied won the war, it was decided that Gehlen was too important, uh, with his knowledge of the... his, his and his organization was too important to, uh, to not use. So he was co-opted by the CIA and eventually wound up be- being the head of the BundnesNachrichtendienst, the CIA of West Germany. That gave us, us, when I say us, you know, the, the East German pa- party, a huge propaganda victory. I wanted to... because... he, his, um... the emotional aspect of this was as follows. When we, uh, we were in, uh, uh, when... uh, juniors in high school, uh, and, uh, in tho- in those days, uh, when you... you were only allowed to go to high school if you were in the top 10% of students, okay? So this was going to be the next set of ruling elite in the country. We were sent to... we were required to visit a concentration camp, and if you know what, what we, as, as 17-year-olds were made to look at, it was gut-wrenching. How can man do something like that to man? Piles of corpses, uh, m- uh, uh, lampshades made out of human skin because, uh, they... that skin had tattoos on them, and shrunken heads, so heads like the size of my fist. It... I mean, the girls all cried, and it would... made a huge impression.

Lex Fridman 23:42 And that was the... that was the Nazis.

Jack Barsky 23:45 Yes.

Lex Fridman 23:45 And then the communists defeated the Nazis.

Jack Barsky 23:47 Communists were the Nazi fighters. They were the good guys.

Lex Fridman 23:49 Yeah.

Jack Barsky 23:49 Of course, you know, in, in hindsight, if the communists had come to power, it would have been just the other way around, as we know, um, given the example of Stalin and Mao, right? So... but we didn't know that.

Lex Fridman 24:01 Right. From the Russian and Soviet perspective, uh, the communist regime banded together to win the, the Great Patriotic War.

Jack Barsky 24:12 And, and that was the, the second one, you know, the big brother, uh, the, the Soviet Union. Uh, I mean, when, when I was approached by the KGB, that was like, oh, I, I felt so honored.

Lex Fridman 24:22 (laughs) So, we should say, um, that we're talking about East Germany.

Jack Barsky 24:29 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 24:29 That you're from East Germany. Can you describe, you were born four years and, what is it, uh-

Jack Barsky 24:36 Yeah, four years and-

Lex Fridman 24:37 ... 10 days?

Jack Barsky 24:38 Yeah, sort of. Very good. (laughs)

Lex Fridman 24:40 After, uh, Germany's-

Jack Barsky 24:41 World War II, yeah.

Lex Fridman 24:42 ... um, unconditional surrender i- in World War II. So, what is East Germany? What is West Germany? What is East and West Germany? What is that? What's the difference?

Jack Barsky 24:52 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 24:52 What's his, the historical context here? What is World War II again? And then, uh-

Jack Barsky 24:56 Oh, yeah. Well. (laughs)

Lex Fridman 24:58 (laughs) . Let's do f- for, uh, some-

Jack Barsky 24:59 We don't have to go to, uh, World War I, which, uh, the result of which actually seeded World War II in some respects.

Lex Fridman 25:06 Yes.

Jack Barsky 25:07 Um-

Lex Fridman 25:07 There, there's a long history, yes.

Jack Barsky 25:09 Uh, but let's start with World War II. So, uh, uh, when Hitler came to power, he, he and his, uh, his, uh, leadership decided that, uh, uh, the Germans needed more what they call lebensraum. That means room to live. So, uh, and they would, uh, you know, they would start expanding, uh, at, uh, at w- and they went into France, uh, they, they took Belgium, the Netherlands, uh, uh, they annexed, uh, uh, Austria, and, uh, and got a piece of, uh, of, of the, of Czechoslovakia, and then they decided to, uh, march into the Soviet Union in, uh, after, after they took Poland. Uh, uh, and-

Lex Fridman 25:52 Cut up, cut up Poland together with the Soviet Union-

Jack Barsky 25:55 Yes.

Lex Fridman 25:55 ... and they were, they were friends.

Jack Barsky 25:56 Yes.

Lex Fridman 25:57 They were, uh, n- not-

Jack Barsky 25:58 There was a non-aggression pact bet- between-

Lex Fridman 26:00 Yes.

Jack Barsky 26:00 ... that was signed by Ribbentrop and Molotov, right? I think both parties knew that eventually they would fall apart, but at the time, uh, it gave the Soviet Union a little more, a pie- a piece of Poland, and a little more time to prepare what they thought might happen down the road. And, and the Ger- the Germans had, you know, uh, the, the time and, uh, the, and the ability to pretty much conquer all of Western Europe.

Lex Fridman 26:29 Do you think Stalin really knew that it's gonna fall apart?

Jack Barsky 26:33 Why would somebody like Stalin trust somebody like Hitler?

Lex Fridman 26:36 But why did he blunder so bad not to, um, read the intelligence that was coming his way?

Jack Barsky 26:42 Oh, he d-

Lex Fridman 26:43 That troops were amassing on the border of-

Jack Barsky 26:45 He d-

Lex Fridman 26:45 ... the Soviet Union.

Jack Barsky 26:46 He didn't trust his own intelligence apparatus.

Lex Fridman 26:48 Oh boy.

Jack Barsky 26:49 Here's one, one example. Uh, um, uh, there was a German communist, um, who, uh, who went underground when Hitler took over, and he w- he went to Japan as a journalist. His name is Richard Sorge. Richard Sorge had really, really good int- intel about what the Jap- Ja- Jap- Japanese would do and not do. He, and it... I forgot exactly what it was, but, uh, it was, it came to Moscow and Stalin totally, totally ignored it. And, and when Sorge was, uh, uh, captured by the, uh, by the Japanese, uh, the Soviet Union denied that, uh, he was one of theirs, so he was executed. Uh, the, the paranoia, again, uh, does a lot of damage. Whe- when you don't, wh- when you don't believe your own intelligence apparatus, why, why bother having one?

Lex Fridman 27:42 (laughs) (sighs) Yeah, I mean, there... But I'm sure there's contradictory information coming in from the intelligence apparatus, so it's difficult. I mean, first of all, nobody likes to be disagreed with, especially when you get, become more and more powerful, and then the intelligence-

Jack Barsky 27:57 Mm-hmm.

Lex Fridman 27:57 ... apparatus is probably giving you information you don't like.

Jack Barsky 28:00 Right.

Lex Fridman 28:00 It's often negative information about-

Jack Barsky 28:04 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 28:04 ... uh, basically information that says that the decisions you made in the past are not great decisions, and that's a difficult truth to deal with.

Jack Barsky 28:14 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 28:15 So, there, you know, in the modern times, if we hop around b- briefly, is, uh, Vladimir Putin has been, um, not happy with the intelligence of the FSB thereby, at least if you read the news-

Jack Barsky 28:31 Right.

Lex Fridman 28:31 ... uh, choosing, uh, to put more priority to the GRU for the intelligence in Ukraine.

Jack Barsky 28:37 Right.

Lex Fridman 28:38 Um, but I guess I s- I suppose the same story happens there as it does throughout history, is the paranoia.

Jack Barsky 28:46 I, I give you, uh, an example that, uh, um, that comes, uh, from a very reliable source. Uh, in that my, my best German friend, uh, worked as a chemist in the, in the Stasi, East German intelligence, and, uh, he eventually, uh, he, he, he rose to the rank of major and was in charge of, uh, the forgery department.

Lex Fridman 29:15 (laughs)

Jack Barsky 29:15 Uh, it's very likely that he made passports that I used to travel. He was aware that there was intelligence that, that was, uh, that was collected. The Stasi was really good. They had about a thousand people in West Germany, undercover agents, uh, some of them in government, and, uh, the Central Committee of, of, of the party, uh, the decision-makers ignored it because it didn't quite fit in their worldview, it didn't quite fit into their plans.

Lex Fridman 29:42 Mm-hmm.

Jack Barsky 29:43 So, uh, and, and o- one, one delicious, uh, s- um, thing that I just wanna add onto this, when, when Gorbachev, uh, um, wrote his book about perestroika and glasnost, uh, the, the East German, uh, uh, rulers did not like it. They were much, much more orthodox. So, (laughs) they had to print the books in translation. Guess where they wound up? They were in the h- piled up in the hallways of the Stasi. (laughs) They, they bought the entire print run-

Lex Fridman 30:17 ... it's fascinating.

Jack Barsky 30:18 (laughs)

Lex Fridman 30:18 Uh, so, but let's backtrack. So, Operation Barbarossa, invasion of Hitler-

Jack Barsky 30:23 Right, right.

Lex Fridman 30:23 ... to the Soviet Union, and then hopefully that leads us all the way to East Germany and West Germany-

Jack Barsky 30:29 Right.

Lex Fridman 30:29 ... uh, after the end of the war.

Jack Barsky 30:30 So what, what happened was that, uh, the Soviet Union rolled into the eastern part of Germany, and the, the, the Western allies, uh, took, uh, a larger chunk as, uh, which was, uh, uh, uh, eventually, uh, it was occupied by the three allies, the French, the n- uh, the, the, the English, and the Americans, and the eastern part was occupied by the, uh, by Soviet troops, and the Soviet u- uh, troops actually, uh, conquered Berlin.

Lex Fridman 31:00 Yeah.

Jack Barsky 31:00 But as they, and, and, and, and, and as in, in a, in a contract, they, uh, decided that Berlin would be ruled by the four allies, and they all had to, you know, had f- free, uh, access to, uh, that city. I was born in the East German part, which very quickly became, uh, uh, ruled by Communists/Socialists. The, the Communist Party and the Socialist Party united and, uh, but the leaders of that new party were all Communists.

Lex Fridman 31:32 It's nevertheless called democratic.

Jack Barsky 31:34 Yes.

Lex Fridman 31:34 (laughs)

Jack Barsky 31:35 German Democratic Republic, which, uh, w- uh, was formed, uh, a couple of months after I was born. Uh, I was born into a, the remote east, southeastern corner, uh, of we- of East Germany, and, uh, interesting enough, uh, genetically I'm only half German. The, the other-

Lex Fridman 31:54 What's the other half?

Jack Barsky 31:55 Uh, the other half is Czech and Polish.

Lex Fridman 31:57 Nice.

Jack Barsky 31:58 Because, uh, where I grew up, you know, we, I could walk to the Neisse River, which was the, um, uh, border with Poland, and, and it was only about a- an hour by bus to get to the Czech, uh, border. So that's why, uh, I'm a mix.

Lex Fridman 32:14 So okay, so East Germany, after the war, was Communist, Socialist-

Jack Barsky 32:19 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 32:19 ... and then the West Germany was representing the western world with, uh-

Jack Barsky 32:24 Right.

Lex Fridman 32:24 ... democracy.

Jack Barsky 32:25 And what the United States did, w- what this was really, really very, uh, forward-looking, very strategic day, th- the Marshall Plan, to rebuild the economy in the West, as compared to what the Soviet Union did. They, whatever they hadn't destroyed on the way in, they took with them s- uh, on the way out for reparations because, you know, they had every right to do that. But it was, uh, not a good idea because, you know, East Germany was always behind in the economic development, uh, to, to their western counterpart.

Lex Fridman 33:01 So when you were young, um, as today, but when you were young, you were clearly an exceptional student.

Jack Barsky 33:08 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 33:09 You're a brilliant academic

Lex Fridman 33:11 superstar. Let's go to your childhood. What's a fond memory, uh, from childhood that you have in being woken up to the beauty of this world, and sort of being curious about all the mysteries around you that I think ultimately lead to academic, um, success?

Jack Barsky 33:32 (laughs)

Lex Fridman 33:33 Or was it, or was it like-

Jack Barsky 33:34 The, the fon- the fondest memory that, that comes to mind-

Lex Fridman 33:37 (laughs)

Jack Barsky 33:37 ... is my first kiss. (laughs)

Lex Fridman 33:38 How's that? Do, do you wanna go to the details of that? What-

Jack Barsky 33:42 (laughs)

Lex Fridman 33:42 ... uh, what, what, what, what'd you make of that, uh, what'd you make of that kiss? What, what, what'd that teach-

Jack Barsky 33:48 Oh-

Lex Fridman 33:48 ... you about yourself and human nature and all that?

Jack Barsky 33:51 It taught me only in hindsight. At the time, I was just like, my God, I was head over heels in love. I was 16 years old.

Lex Fridman 33:59 Yeah.

Jack Barsky 34:00 And, uh, I, I, I knew, uh, in those days, I admired girls. I, I knew that girls were like, uh, sort of, um, uh, magical beings. They were not capable of doing evil things.

Lex Fridman 34:13 Mm-hmm.

Jack Barsky 34:13 They were beautiful, and they had to be adored.

Lex Fridman 34:16 Yeah.

Jack Barsky 34:16 And one of them actually loved me too. She came after me initially.

Lex Fridman 34:22 Yeah.

Jack Barsky 34:22 Right?

Lex Fridman 34:22 And, and that was like, that was, that too was magical for you.

Jack Barsky 34:25 Oh my God, yeah.

Lex Fridman 34:27 (laughs)

Jack Barsky 34:28 Uh, and, and I literally, I, uh, dedicated... That's when I started studying. Up until that point, I just like did whatever I had to do to be an A-minus student, and that's when I started studying, and every A that I got, I dedicated to her, sometimes explicitly, uh, because I knew I was gonna take care of her, you know, when as I grow up.

Lex Fridman 34:50 So you're gonna have to work hard in-

Jack Barsky 34:51 Yes.

Lex Fridman 34:52 ... this world to be somebody that could be adored by the, by those you love.

Jack Barsky 34:55 Yes, you're right. You know that, that kiss, (clears throat) (laughs) the, the next day, I was running around in school with a grin on my face. (laughs)

Lex Fridman 35:05 Yeah. And maybe that, in some way, that grin never fades. So, um, what about the heartbreak that followed?

Jack Barsky 35:12 (laughs) Well, the heartbreak followed.

Lex Fridman 35:13 (laughs) Surely followed.

Jack Barsky 35:15 (clears throat) But, uh, just to, uh-

Lex Fridman 35:18 (laughs)

Jack Barsky 35:18 ... ex- expand on this a little more-

Lex Fridman 35:19 Yes.

Jack Barsky 35:19 ... because, uh, that, that passion that I had, uh, was an indication that eventually love would play a big role in my life. I wasn't aware of it. I was just directed at this one girl, but, uh, uh-

Lex Fridman 35:34 But that, that you understood that that feeling-

Jack Barsky 35:37 Oh my God.

Lex Fridman 35:37 ... that taught you something like that you're somebody that can feel those things and that-

Jack Barsky 35:41 Absolutely.

Lex Fridman 35:41 ... and there's, that's a strong kind of-

Jack Barsky 35:45 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 35:45 ... part of who you are, and therefore it will also be a part of directing your life trajectory.

Jack Barsky 35:50 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 35:51 Uh-

Jack Barsky 35:51 So we, we were an item for two years. Uh, I lost my virginity.

Lex Fridman 35:57 Congratulations.

Jack Barsky 35:57 She was not a virgin at the time. (laughs) She, she, my, my, my competitor was a-

Lex Fridman 36:03 (laughs) There always is a competitor-

Jack Barsky 36:05 Yeah, there was-

Lex Fridman 36:06 ... isn't that how it works?

Jack Barsky 36:07 ... there was, he studied medicine in, in college already.

Lex Fridman 36:09 In which ways was he better than you?

Jack Barsky 36:11 Uh, he wasn't. He was older, and he was more experienced.

Lex Fridman 36:14 Yeah.

Jack Barsky 36:14 And he was gonna be a doctor, and, uh, I, but, you know, I was there, and he was not.

Lex Fridman 36:20 Ah.

Jack Barsky 36:21 ... the, you know, presence wins.

Lex Fridman 36:23 Yeah. But you still had big dreams. You wanted to be a, a tenured professor.

Jack Barsky 36:28 Yes. Yes. That, that...

Lex Fridman 36:29 So you s- you still want to outdo that guy?

Jack Barsky 36:32 Oh, yeah. And, and she, she eventually told me that, uh, you know, he, he was, he was not in the picture anymore. So it was back and forth, back and forth, and, uh, the, m- our senior year, we were an item. And, uh, and I was just dreaming of, uh, you know, the future. But sort of... We didn't figure out that... You know, in those days, uh... She went to college in Berlin, and I went to college in Jena. And the, the distance to, to, uh, between the two cities was too... it was too much to... for a weekend visit. You know, public transportation was very slow, and nobody had cars. And so, uh...

Lex Fridman 37:15 So the circumstance of life, you drifted apart.

Jack Barsky 37:17 Yeah. And so we interacted, uh, with a couple of letters, and then I got the goodbye letter. Oh my god.

Lex Fridman 37:24 That hurt?

Jack Barsky 37:26 I can still feel it.

Lex Fridman 37:28 (laughs)

Jack Barsky 37:29 You, you know, when...

Lex Fridman 37:30 That's, that's a good thing, that you could feel the pain. That's still part of love. That's, that's... The, the pain of loss is still part of love, and then you kinda change that. You shape it, and you give that love in deeper, more profound ways to future people.

Jack Barsky 37:46 That's, that's very well put. But at, at the time, it-

Lex Fridman 37:49 (laughs)

Jack Barsky 37:49 ... it emptied me out.

Lex Fridman 37:51 Yeah.

Jack Barsky 37:51 If, if I had, uh, a tendency, uh, to, you know... to have suicidal thoughts, I might have killed myself.

Lex Fridman 37:59 It was... So you w- Would you say that was one of the darker moments of your life?

Jack Barsky 38:03 Um, let me see.

Lex Fridman 38:06 (laughs) Yeah.

Jack Barsky 38:07 As a single moment, yes. So, you know, I'm... (clears throat) I still remember. Uh, we had a, a, a mail slot in the front door. And I, uh, I was expecting a letter any day, and there was the letter. I go upstairs into my, uh, my bedroom, and I open it, and I read it. And, and it just like... The life went out of me, you know?

Lex Fridman 38:30 You're just there alone.

Jack Barsky 38:31 The-

Lex Fridman 38:31 And you have to experience this pain alone.

Jack Barsky 38:33 So, but-

Lex Fridman 38:34 And now you're deeply alone in this world.

Jack Barsky 38:37 Yes. Because I didn't have a... uh, there was no emotional, um, relationship with my parents. Um, I, I literally had nobody.

Lex Fridman 38:47 So this love you have in you had no... had no place to go.

Jack Barsky 38:51 It was choked off, all right? So, uh... But I... Uh, what I did was I, um... I, I wanted to go on, right? And so I threw myself into the study of chemistry. I outworked all of my fellow students, in a big way. I just like... I worked my ass off, and since I was pretty smart too, I just aced practically everything. And for the first two years in college... And look, we go to college, there are all these pretty girls, and there's dances and everything. We had this, this great student club where... Uh, I, I didn't look at any girls. Like, I'm... Eventually, I knew I was going to want to have female companionship, but love? Uh-uh. No more, that hurts.

Lex Fridman 39:40 (laughs)

Jack Barsky 39:40 There's a, there's a song that goes, "Love hurts."

Lex Fridman 39:43 Yeah.

Jack Barsky 39:43 (laughs)

Lex Fridman 39:43 Yeah, I know that one.

Jack Barsky 39:44 (laughs)

Lex Fridman 39:45 That's true. There's actually many songs-

Jack Barsky 39:47 (laughs)

Lex Fridman 39:47 ... that, that have a similar message, yes.

Jack Barsky 39:49 Uh-huh.

Lex Fridman 39:49 Um, so during that time, during your excellence, just being an exceptional student, uh, o- of chemistry,

Lex Fridman 39:58 let's go to your story. So, um, in your book, Deep Undercover: My Secret Life Entangled: Uh, Allegiances as a KGB Spy in America, and in the really, really excellent podcast series that I've been listening to, it's... People should definitely listen to it. It's called The Agent. You document your time as a KGB spy before, during, and after. Can you tell the story of when you first were contacted by the KGB, those-

Jack Barsky 40:23 Right.

Lex Fridman 40:24 ... uh, how you were in- invited, the offer to join was made?

Jack Barsky 40:30 Yeah. Well, (laughs) it was a big surprise, and I, I never thought of myself as a, as a potential agent, you know. I, I was gonna be a tenured professor, and join the ruling elite, because in, uh, in, in Europe, tenured professors are few. It's not like in the United States, you know, anybody who teaches at colleges has a, has the title of professor.

Lex Fridman 40:49 Easy now. (laughs)

Jack Barsky 40:50 (laughs) It's true.

Lex Fridman 40:52 Yes, yes.

Jack Barsky 40:52 That's not a criticism.

Lex Fridman 40:53 100%. So we should also clarify that tenured professor or not, it, it is a very prestigious position throughout history of Europe.

Jack Barsky 41:02 Yeah. Yeah.

Lex Fridman 41:03 Uh, and w- I would say especially communist... I, I don't actually know the full landscape of the respect, but at least in the Soviet Union where I grew up, it's pre- it's a prestigious position.

Jack Barsky 41:13 Absolutely was. Uh, and the, the town of Jena (clears throat) had about 100,000 people live there. And, um, (sighs) I would... it's a wild guess, but maybe 30 tenured professors, and they were part of the ruling elite. I was trying to do as much as I can to live the good life, right? You know, have access to things that, uh, that are nice.

Lex Fridman 41:36 Yeah, but I think the powerful thing about being a professor in that context of East Germany is the prestige.

Jack Barsky 41:44 And the feeling of superiority.

Lex Fridman 41:46 (laughs)

Jack Barsky 41:47 You know, I, I was full of myself. You know, when, when, when you are the best of the best, and I, and I... In my third year, I received a scholarship, uh, The Karl Marx Scholarship, uh, that was limited to 100 concurrent recipients in the country. So, my god, no- I, I was full of myself. I, I, I believed in myself hook, hook, line, and sinker. And, and, and I was also, uh, uh, this, uh... Uh, I got a lot of, uh, accolades from teachers and-... fellow students.

Lex Fridman 42:22 So they were feeding the ego, the old, I mean-

Jack Barsky 42:25 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 42:26 You, you have to believe in yourself, uh, often when you're young to truly, sort of-

Jack Barsky 42:30 Right. Right.

Lex Fridman 42:31 ... to, to excel. And, and you sure as heck did. (laughs)

Jack Barsky 42:34 But, you know, as a balance, you need a mentor, somebody who puts things in perspective, and I didn't have one. My, my father was a n- non-entity, and nobody else... They, they all looked up to me.

Lex Fridman 42:45 Yeah.

Jack Barsky 42:46 I was an up-and-coming guy, right?

Lex Fridman 42:47 So there's no father figure that put you in your place to check-

Jack Barsky 42:50 Not at all. And, and I'll give you one extreme example. It was down the road when I fathered a child out of wedlock. W- Um, um, that was in my fifth year, I believe. The, the Communist Party in East Germany was, uh, very moralistic. If you did that, they would have a talk with you, and give you whatever, a severe reprimand. Nobody even mentioned a word about this. So yeah, so this is, this is how this ego gets, gets nurtured. But anyway, getting back to how the KGB, uh, uh, came in contact. So they most likely got, uh, knowledge of me by, you know, looking at, uh, Stasi, uh, records. The Stasi-

Lex Fridman 43:34 What's, what's Stasi?

Jack Barsky 43:35 Oh, th- that was East German secret police. Staatssicherheit, uh, uh, security, uh, for the state.

Lex Fridman 43:42 There's that word "security" again. (laughs)

Jack Barsky 43:45 And that they pretty much kept a record, uh, on, on everybody in the country. And, um, so when you, when you look through this and... And, and this is what the KGB was looking for. They were looking for candidates, particularly for this kind of job that they had in mind for me, for candidates, uh, who were not... You know, in their mid-20s, uh, who were not fully developed yet, but mature enough to, to get there.

Lex Fridman 44:13 I see.

Jack Barsky 44:13 Uh, and, and, and still young enough, right?

Lex Fridman 44:16 'Cause, 'cause at that level of maturity, you can test whether they can handle this kind of job.

Jack Barsky 44:20 Yes, absolutely right. So, and, uh, um, one day, I got, got a knock on my door, on my dorm room door. It was on a Saturday. Um. And, uh, they knew that I was by myself. How did they know it? Uh, we had a... I, I pieced this together. Uh-

Lex Fridman 44:43 (laughs)

Jack Barsky 44:43 We had a, an, a exchange student from the Soviet Union, and he was next door, uh, to me. And he, you know, he, he befriended me. So he, he got to know me a little bit, and, and it, the pattern was that my roommate would always go home for the weekend. And of course, they also knew which door to knock on, even though there were no nameplates, right? (laughs) So somebody knocks, uh, and, uh, I knew it was a stranger because if it, if it had been a student, uh, the, the, uh, pattern was that we would knock on the door and then go in.

Lex Fridman 45:18 Mm-hmm.

Jack Barsky 45:18 We wouldn't wait for somebody to, to let us in. So I didn't, I waited for 10 seconds and I... And he didn't come in. I s- I knew that it was a stranger. I said, "Come on in." And in came a person, uh, who spoke fluent German. So that was not a KGB guy. That was a collaborator. Uh, when, and so he s- he started making a bunch of small talk. He introduced himself as the, uh, as a representative of Carl Zeiss Jena, which was the optics, uh, um, um, company that made, that was, made really, really good optical instruments. Was one of the best in the world.

Lex Fridman 45:58 So it's, it's like the, you know, the, the, the super prestigious company-

Jack Barsky 46:03 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 46:03 ... in that place.

Jack Barsky 46:04 Right. And he said, you know, uh, that he was a representative of that company, and he would just want to find out if, what my plans were after gr- graduating from college. And at that point I knew he wasn't from Carl Zeiss Jena, because in those days there was no recruitment. You, when, when you were done, uh, if you were in the top (clears throat) 10% of the graduates, you would most likely pick to stay and get a doctorate, right?

Lex Fridman 46:36 Mm-hmm.

Jack Barsky 46:37 And the rest of them were assigned, you know, wherever... You had no choice. (laughs) So, so that guy was a... an idiot.

Lex Fridman 46:46 Mm-hmm.

Jack Barsky 46:47 He, he, he didn't know the basics, uh, about-

Lex Fridman 46:50 (laughs) You interviewed him a little bit to understand, like-

Jack Barsky 46:53 Oh, sure.

Lex Fridman 46:53 ... is, is he-

Jack Barsky 46:54 You know, I, you know, I started-

Lex Fridman 46:55 Like, feel out, "Is this guy full of shit?"

Jack Barsky 46:57 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 46:57 Because yeah, it's a stranger showing up to your dorm room.

Jack Barsky 47:00 And I knew that... At that point I knew he was Stasi, which is wrong, but, uh, it doesn't matter because he was German, and I had no idea that the KGB would be involved.

Lex Fridman 47:10 So, uh, s- sorry to pause briefly. Did you have a sense... Did people know that there's a Stasi type of organization, that there is (sighs) a, a large number of people doing this kind of work in East Germany, did-

Jack Barsky 47:25 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 47:25 ... in order for you to make that guess?

Jack Barsky 47:27 Yeah. We, we, we knew that the Stasi existed. Uh, we, uh, we even had our, uh, James Bond. You know, we had, uh, a series, uh, it's called the Invisible Visor, wherein a Stasi employee, an East German would go into West Germany and hunt down Nazis.

Lex Fridman 47:44 Yes.

Jack Barsky 47:45 So yes, the Stasi was, was known to be there.

Lex Fridman 47:47 And admired in part? Or feared? Or both?

Jack Barsky 47:51 I, I thought they were necessary, and, uh, I admired them. Uh-

Lex Fridman 47:55 James Bond?

Jack Barsky 47:55 The re- yes. The reason I did so, because I had no information to the contrary, I never knew anybody personally or even, you know, uh, somewhat removed who was, uh, uh, followed by the Stasi, uh, uh, was, uh, m- you know, put in jail. Uh, I, I had no clue. I, I had no clue that they did a lot of damage and that they were, like-... doing a lot of s- surveillance of, of, of the East German population, the same way the KGB did, did for, for the Soviet Union. So for me to, uh, uh, be talking to somebody from the Stasi was, uh... It, um, it raised my interest. I was curious, what comes next? Because I sort of knew something interesting would be coming at me, and I, I had no... I had no other thoughts about that at that point. So when, when he was finally... When he, uh, he went in, he went for the kill by, uh, reversing himself, he said, "You know, I gotta tell you that I really, I really am not from Carl Zeiss Jena, I'm from the government."

Lex Fridman 49:02 (laughs)

Jack Barsky 49:03 Okay, thank you (laughs) for pointing that out. And then he asked this question, he says, "Can you imagine to one day work for the government?" And so I gave a pretty clever answer. I said, "Yes, but not as a chemist." So we... I answered the question that he didn't ask. I helped him out. So we made an arrangement, uh, to meet, meet for, uh, lunch, which in Germany is the main meal, uh, at the number one restaurant in, in Jena. You know, I still remember what I ate. Uh-

Lex Fridman 49:36 What was that?

Jack Barsky 49:36 ... rump steak with, uh, with butter on top, and french fries. It was, was my favorite. Anyway, um, so when I get to the restaurant, uh, and I, I saw this fella sitting in the back there at the table, and, uh, there was another person at the table. So I was a little bit hesitant, because in those days, uh, it was not unusual for, for perfect strangers to share a table, 'cause there w- wasn't, weren't enough, uh, tables and chairs and so forth. So I didn't know if I could approach him, but he, he got up and came to me and, uh, he took me to the table and he said, "Uh, I want to introduce, uh, uh, Herman. We work with our Soviet comrades." "Aha, KGB." And then he, he disappeared. He says, "I, I got something else to do." I never knew his name. I... He just handed me over to the KGB.

Lex Fridman 50:29 What was the relationship between the KGB and the Stasis? As, um, collaborators, close collaborators, or just distant associates?

Jack Barsky 50:37 Uh, they were pretty close collaborators. As I told you that, uh, you know, they, they, they bought, uh, forged documents that the Germans made because the Germans were better at forgery. Uh, they also exchanged information, but they didn't trust each other 100%. And, and, and I, and I tell you why I know that. So they recruited me to send me to West Germany. As I already said, East Germany had 1,000 agents over there, why would they have their... wanna have their own?

Lex Fridman 51:06 Yeah.

Jack Barsky 51:07 (laughs)

Lex Fridman 51:08 Yeah, okay. This is f- fascinating internal and external dynamic of distrust.

Jack Barsky 51:13 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 51:13 Okay. So there you are, uh, welcomed by the KGB. When did the offer, the invite come?

Jack Barsky 51:21 Well, that took a while. So Herman and, and I, uh, had an unofficial relationship for about a year and a half. I would meet him, uh, maybe once a week, once every two weeks, initially in his car, but then, uh, uh, he, um, he, um, he took me to a conspirational flat. It was a, uh, an apartment that was, uh, occupied by a, a party member, a lady, single lady. When we came in, she would leave. She left us tea and cookies, and then we could f- freely talk. He also, uh, at that time, gave me some West German literature magazines to read, which was of course forbidden. So already I'm starting to feel somewhat special. And as we were talking about what they had in mind for me in general, I knew that I was gonna be even more special, because I would be above the law.

Lex Fridman 52:20 So-

Jack Barsky 52:20 I would, I would operate outside the law of, of the countries I would go to, as well as, uh, East Germany. Because, you know, the, the magazines and, uh, and eventually w- when, when I joined up, uh, they told me I, I better watch West German television, which was also not explicitly pro- prohibited, but it was, uh, uh, something that could g- get you in trouble. So-

Lex Fridman 52:45 So on many levels, you're super special. You're the James Bond-

Jack Barsky 52:48 Yes, yes, yes.

Lex Fridman 52:49 So what was that recruitment testing process like? Uh, testing whether you-

Jack Barsky 52:56 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 52:57 ... are... You have what it takes to be a KGB agent?

Jack Barsky 53:01 Well, first of all, um, we had very in-depth talks, uh, Hermann and I, uh, about life. And I, I, I was... I still am very honest in sharing my feelings.

Lex Fridman 53:19 Uh, philosophical or personal?

Jack Barsky 53:21 Personal.

Lex Fridman 53:22 Personal.

Jack Barsky 53:22 I even, I even told him that I was shy around the girls.

Lex Fridman 53:25 Mm-hmm.

Jack Barsky 53:25 Uh...

Lex Fridman 53:26 He wa- he was giving you relationship advice, or what?

Jack Barsky 53:29 Well, yeah. He, he-

Lex Fridman 53:29 Uh, how old was he? So what's, what was the dynamic? Can you tell me? Was it a father, son? Was it a-

Jack Barsky 53:34 No, older brother. Older brother.

Lex Fridman 53:35 Older brother?

Jack Barsky 53:36 Yeah. He was, uh, maybe in his, um, e- early to mid-30s, and I was maybe 10 years younger.

Lex Fridman 53:42 And what languages did he speak?

Jack Barsky 53:43 Uh, he speaks German. He spoke German pretty well. Uh-

Lex Fridman 53:46 But he's originally from Russia?

Jack Barsky 53:47 Oh, he... Yeah, with a Russian accent. Uh, so I got in trouble one time with him when, when I asked him, "Is your real name German?" (laughs)

Lex Fridman 53:57 (laughs)

Jack Barsky 53:57 He didn't like that. (laughs)

Lex Fridman 53:57 He didn't like it. Wa- was he good with girls? Was, was-

Jack Barsky 54:00 No, no, he just-

Lex Fridman 54:01 What, what was his interest

Narrator 54:01 So-

Jack Barsky 54:01 You know, th- he told... I remember what he told me, he says, "Y- you know, you gotta understand one thing. They're looking for guys too." That's, that's all, you know.

Lex Fridman 54:11 Oh, uh, girls are looking for guys too.

Jack Barsky 54:12 Y- yeah, absolutely.

Lex Fridman 54:13 Yeah, it's a, it's a, it's a competitive game.

Jack Barsky 54:15 Right. So, so, yeah. Don't, don't, don't worry about it, you know. Don't be so shy.

Lex Fridman 54:18 So that little flame of love that we talked about-

Jack Barsky 54:21 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 54:21 ... in all the shapes that it takes in our life...... did he talk to you about that? That that could be taken advantage of? That that could be used-

Jack Barsky 54:30 Mm-hmm.

Lex Fridman 54:30 ... or was it implied? Or wh-

Jack Barsky 54:32 Y- y- yeah, but not in... N- n- it was not very focused, not in great detail. So, let's, uh... So, we talked about personal stuff and, you know, like dislikes. He even... he gave me tasks. For instance, uh, when my friend and I, uh, hitchhiked, uh, from, from East Germany all the way down to Bulgaria, he told me to write a report about it, what I saw. So-

Lex Fridman 54:53 Yes.

Jack Barsky 54:54 ... uh, fundamentally he wanted to see how well I can, uh, I can write and how well I can report, how well I observe. Uh, he also asked me to write some profiles about fellow students. I don't believe that was for them to give in to the Stasi. It was just like, "How- how well do I characterize people?" Which... That's important when you're talking about, uh... When I was in the US, uh, uh, active in the US, I operated as a spotter, so I did exactly that. I wrote, uh, profiles about people. Uh, he also gave me some tasks to do that were, uh, rather unpleasant. Um-

Lex Fridman 55:33 Like what?

Jack Barsky 55:34 Uh, (sighs) he would give me an address and the name of a, a, of a, a... the people who lived at the address, and he told me to go there, ring the doorbell, and find out something about a relative who lived in West Germany. Uh, that is undercover exploration, right? So you go... You, you make up a story and somehow win the confidence of your target to tell you something that you wanna know.

Lex Fridman 56:04 Was that... Did that come naturally to you, the c-

Jack Barsky 56:06 No. No, I hated it.

Lex Fridman 56:07 ... the charisma involved?

Jack Barsky 56:08 Uh-

Lex Fridman 56:08 Which part did you hate?

Jack Barsky 56:09 Yeah, charisma, I think... I didn't know that I had it. (laughs)

Lex Fridman 56:13 Oh, it took you some time to discover?

Jack Barsky 56:14 B- because, you know, I was... I always was, and I still am to some degree, a bit shy. Uh, I lost a lot of the shyness, uh, after moving to the South, because... uh, here in the United States, because, uh, you don't have to be shy, you know? Um-

Lex Fridman 56:29 (laughs)

Jack Barsky 56:30 It's... Y-

Lex Fridman 56:30 You c- (laughs) you can, uh, let your love shine.

Jack Barsky 56:33 That's exactly right.

Lex Fridman 56:34 Yeah. (laughs)

Jack Barsky 56:34 So, but anyway, I, I hated doing that, but I, I did it well. I still remember. So I... In those days, I had a... I had a beard.

Lex Fridman 56:42 Mm-hmm.

Jack Barsky 56:43 And, uh, I e- and I, I rang the bell and, uh-

Lex Fridman 56:46 Tall, handsome fellow?

Jack Barsky 56:47 Yeah. And, uh, and I, I looked the part. I said, "I'm a... I'm a sociology student, and I'm, I'm doing a survey." And I asked a whole bunch of questions. "Can... Would you like to answer the questions?"

Lex Fridman 56:58 Mm-hmm.

Jack Barsky 56:58 "I mean, no problem." Uh, and then I directed the conversation to the lady's private life, and da da... And she actually gave me information. She volunteered information that (laughs) I wanted to know.

Lex Fridman 57:13 Beautiful.

Jack Barsky 57:14 I did well. And the other one, uh, that I didn't like, uh, but I also did well with... when, uh, when Herman, uh, drove me t- around the city and showed me a building, and he said, "Find out what organization is in there, what they do. Uh, maybe get to know some people." And I did that pretty well also. You know, you have to be inventive, you know, to, to come up with a cover story. And, and I've always been quite a, uh, inventive. Uh, you know, I'm a storyteller, uh, at, uh, at heart. And that... I didn't know it then, but that... you know, I...

Lex Fridman 57:49 But there was still something unpleasant about it, that-

Jack Barsky 57:52 Yes, yes, because-

Lex Fridman 57:53 W- which part was unpleasant?

Jack Barsky 57:54 Well, uh, th- the shyness, and then, you know... you know, I wasn't very comfortable lying. I became comfortable down the road, but, you know, I, I was brutally honest, uh, and, and never... never hid anything o- of me. Uh, but, you know, over time, you lose that, that, um, uncomfortable feeling, and you rationalize that you gotta do it. There's only one way, right? And you're serving a good cause.

Lex Fridman 58:25 So, you were talking to Herman for a year and a half?

Jack Barsky 58:28 A year and a half.

Lex Fridman 58:29 And then how did that progress?

Jack Barsky 58:31 Yes. So he sent... He finally... I, I guess he sent re- a report, uh, to headquarters in Berlin, and, uh, then he sent me f- uh, on a three-week "practice trip" to Berlin.

Lex Fridman 58:45 Hmm.

Jack Barsky 58:45 This was the first time when I had an, an... like, a cons- conspira- conspiratorial meeting where I would... I had an address and a time-

Lex Fridman 58:54 Mm-hmm.

Jack Barsky 58:54 ... and a code phrase, and I met another agent. His name was B- Boris. The- these names mean- were meaningless. They were all, like, cover names, right? The-

Lex Fridman 59:04 So what was the code and the mean-... What was the na-... Uh, what... Can you give a little more detail?

Jack Barsky 59:08 That code, I don't remember.

Lex Fridman 59:10 No, but not the code, but, like, what do you mean by code? So what was-

Jack Barsky 59:13 Oh, I, I tell you my... The, the code we used when I, I... when I met... w- while I was active. Uh, I would approach the other person who I thought may be the, the person I wanna meet. We both had, uh, uh, some- something to... with us or on us to make us more likely to be the right person.

Lex Fridman 59:34 Mm-hmm.

Jack Barsky 59:34 Uh, so, uh... And I would, uh... I would ask him the following questions. "Uh, e- excuse me, uh, I'm looking for Susan Green." And he's... and he would answer, "Yes, you must be David."

Lex Fridman 59:48 Mm-hmm.

Jack Barsky 59:49 Stupid. If, if I... if I ask a stranger, and l- they would look at me, "Well, how could I h- help you?" So-

Lex Fridman 59:56 Yeah.

Jack Barsky 59:57 ... I know it's the wrong guy.

Lex Fridman 59:58 Yeah. It's just a low probability that the, the right thing would be said.

Jack Barsky 1:00:01 Oh, absolutely.

Lex Fridman 1:00:02 So it's a- it's a nice answer.

Jack Barsky 1:00:03 Like-

Lex Fridman 1:00:03 And it seems like a safe statement-

Jack Barsky 1:00:05 Yes.

Lex Fridman 1:00:05 ... if it's not the right person.

Jack Barsky 1:00:06 Exactly right. Mm-hmm.

Lex Fridman 1:00:07 It- it would just come off absurd or crazy or whatever.

Jack Barsky 1:00:09 You, you would've made a... You would've made a good secret agent. You, you know exactly-

Lex Fridman 1:00:13 How do you know I'm not?

Jack Barsky 1:00:15 (laughs)

Lex Fridman 1:00:15 This is... This is... We'll discuss this later.

Jack Barsky 1:00:19 (laughs)

Lex Fridman 1:00:20 (laughs) I'm dressed like one. A- actually, yeah, w- was there any dress code?

Jack Barsky 1:00:25 No, just fit in.

Lex Fridman 1:00:26 ... fit in, no matter what.

Jack Barsky 1:00:27 Right.

Lex Fridman 1:00:27 And then be creative.

Jack Barsky 1:00:29 Yes.

Lex Fridman 1:00:29 Figure out ways to fit in.

Jack Barsky 1:00:30 Right. So anyways, he gave me some tasks, and we- and he- and s- since I- I- I had rented a room in a house, he gave me, uh, Western literature to read. Uh, and we spent time together. Um, and, uh, there was a practice run to West Germany. Actually, there were two. And that was very important. In- in hindsight, I figured that out. Uh, so I traveled to West Germany... uh, no, not to West Berlin with an East German passport that, uh, was stamped that- that- uh, that individual was allowed to go to the West. And, uh, there was a- uh, a part of the, uh, border that was, uh- um, only, uh, guarded by Soviet troops, and that's where they smuggled me into West Germany. I got on the subway, uh, and- and then, uh, uh, appeared in- in West Berlin. No- no- no Americans, no Brits, no French knew that- that I had entered.

Lex Fridman 1:01:37 Uh, forged documents, or n- no- no, nothing like that?

Jack Barsky 1:01:39 No, no. This was a- an East German passport. It was real.

Lex Fridman 1:01:42 Okay.

Jack Barsky 1:01:43 Okay? So, uh... and, uh, the first trip, all they wanted me to do was just walk around, you know, smell the air, uh, you know, have a beer or whatever, and- and eat a sausage, and then come back.

Lex Fridman 1:01:56 Hm.

Jack Barsky 1:01:57 The second trip, I had a task very similar to the one that- that I had back in Jena, to ring the doorbell someplace and, uh, talk to some people, and that worked very well as- also.

Lex Fridman 1:02:11 I- I should mention that y- you talk about that, you know, eat a sausage, drink some beer. I suppose that's a good test too, to see how you behave under Western...

Jack Barsky 1:02:23 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 1:02:23 Like, when first introduced to the Western cult-... like, uh, this is why I might not make a good agent, is when I first, uh, came to the United States, in the supermarket. I would like bananas, as many bananas as I want to eat.

Jack Barsky 1:02:39 (laughs)

Lex Fridman 1:02:40 That, I think I would... that, I think that would break me.

Jack Barsky 1:02:43 (laughs) It's a shock.

Lex Fridman 1:02:44 Just- just... it's a shock to be... uh, to have access to Western culture.

Jack Barsky 1:02:49 You're getting very close to the reason they actually made me do this- these two practice trips. The... at... when I first emerged on West Berlin territory, I felt highly uncomfortable. That was the enemy, right?

Lex Fridman 1:03:05 Yeah.

Jack Barsky 1:03:06 And I saw the cops everywhere, and even those- tho- those cops had, like, light blue uniforms, not the... they weren't standouts. So, I was wondering, you know, if- if they knew that, you know, I had, like, KGB (laughs) on my forehead.

Lex Fridman 1:03:18 Yeah. So you were paranoid that they would know, they would see.

Jack Barsky 1:03:21 I was scared, but I- I overcame that.

Lex Fridman 1:03:24 So, that's... can we just linger on that? Because I suppose that's a natural... like, if I give anybody on the street the mission to do the mission you had to do, is they would be paranoid. That's a natural human...

Jack Barsky 1:03:36 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 1:03:37 ... feeling, is, am I being watched? Do they know? Um, like, if you try to steal something from a store, uh, you're... there's going to be a feeling like, are they watching me? Are the cameras watching? Are the people watching me? They all know. The... that kind of stuff. So you have to over-... or you have to be somehow rugged and robust to that kind of feeling and o- overcome it.

Jack Barsky 1:03:57 Yes, exactly. So... and- and, uh, something very interesting happened, uh, w- while I was being trained in Berlin. I met a classmate of mine from high school, and he confided to me that, uh, he was recruited by the Stasi to become a spi-... uh, go as a spy to West Germany, and he also had this practice trip, and he peed in his pants. He went back and told them, "I can't do that."

Lex Fridman 1:04:23 Just from the terror, the- the-

Jack Barsky 1:04:25 Yes.

Lex Fridman 1:04:26 ... that paranoia.

Jack Barsky 1:04:27 Now, this guy's career was over. He had a- he had an- an... uh, he had- had an engineering degree. He was a pretty smart guy. He- he was just, for the rest of his life... and he's still alive, I believe, floating around and, you know, trading in, uh, m- model railroads and stuff like that.

Lex Fridman 1:04:46 You mean, do you think that experience broke him? Uh, or...

Jack Barsky 1:04:49 They- they wouldn't let him back in.

Lex Fridman 1:04:51 Oh, I see. They... (laughs)

Jack Barsky 1:04:53 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 1:04:54 So, this... it's a test that if you fail, you pay the price of that failure.

Jack Barsky 1:04:56 I had no idea that- that, uh, you know, uh, something bad would happen if I failed that test, but I didn't. (laughs)

Lex Fridman 1:05:05 Yeah.

Jack Barsky 1:05:05 I didn't fail. So... and this led then to the offer, all right? Uh, after... you know, Boris was happy with me, and he told his boss, who was most likely the- the head of the KGB in- in- in- in East Berlin. And I had an appointment to meet.

Lex Fridman 1:05:22 In East Germany?

Jack Barsky 1:05:24 Yes, in East Germany. Yeah, all of East Germany.

Lex Fridman 1:05:26 Yes.

Jack Barsky 1:05:27 That's right. An appointment to meet with him, and as we walk into the room, uh, there was this- this huge desk and a little guy sitting behind it. Very, very, uh, just like, little, and n- unimpressive.

Lex Fridman 1:05:44 Nice.

Jack Barsky 1:05:46 A lot of paraphernalia like, you know, had a- had a bust of, uh, Dzerzhinsky on- on- on- on his desk, and- and some- some- some paintings, uh, Lenin and so forth. But when the guy opened his mouth, it was like, whoa! Uh, huge, uh, psychological energy. He spoke only Russian. Now, uh... and initially he would, you know, start ab- with five minutes worth of propaganda, why we're doing what we're doing.

Lex Fridman 1:06:14 Mm-hmm.

Jack Barsky 1:06:15 I didn't need that. I understood most of it. Uh, but what I... when- when I didn't understand, I'd ask Boris to translate. And then- then he sprung it on me, and I was not prepared. He said, "So what? Are you in or not?"

Lex Fridman 1:06:29 Mm-hmm.

Jack Barsky 1:06:30 And I was, "Now I'm gonna..." Um, I hadn't made up my mind. I wasn't expecting that it would come and, uh... So, um, I said to him, "I'm not really trained. You know, there's a lot of things I need to learn." And I came up with a couple of really stupid things. One, one not so stupid, but the other one was... I don't know why I said that. I said, for instance, "I need to learn how to drive a car and to type with a typewriter." (laughs)

Lex Fridman 1:06:56 Yes.

Jack Barsky 1:06:57 And he's, he, he was... He got re- really annoyed and he said, "Don't worry about it. We'll train you."

Lex Fridman 1:07:02 Yeah.

Jack Barsky 1:07:03 "But I gotta tell you, we need people who are decisive. So I... You got until tomorrow noon to give Boris your decision." That made for a sleepless night.

Lex Fridman 1:07:15 So what was going through your mind?

Jack Barsky 1:07:17 Well, I had, uh... This was almost 50/50. Uh, I, I, I knew I was gonna have a huge career, a good career. I would... I was on my way, uh, because, you know, th- this... I was already, uh, employed by the university as an assistant professor.

Lex Fridman 1:07:35 So that career would be, yeah, to become a professor, become a tenured professor. Be a world-class...

Jack Barsky 1:07:40 Yes. Uh, Jena had become my hometown. I really loved the place. It, it, it was my oyster. And then... And my family was my basketball team. I was-

Lex Fridman 1:07:53 You, you, you, you loved playing basketball, so that's what you mean.

Jack Barsky 1:07:56 Oh, absolutely.

Lex Fridman 1:07:57 Yeah, so this is home. This is home. This is where your love is.

Jack Barsky 1:07:59 This, this, this was home.

Lex Fridman 1:08:00 This is where you're comfortable. Did you understand that the choice involved leaving the home behind?

Jack Barsky 1:08:05 Yes. Yes. And, and, um, the one thing I didn't have... The two things I didn't have. An emotional relationship with my mother.

Lex Fridman 1:08:13 Mm-hmm.

Jack Barsky 1:08:13 And I didn't have a steady girlfriend at the time.

Lex Fridman 1:08:17 I think Freud would have a lot to say about that. But yeah, go ahead. But the connection between those two... But, yes.

Jack Barsky 1:08:22 (laughs)

Lex Fridman 1:08:23 Yeah, I'm sure.

Jack Barsky 1:08:24 By the way, my, my, my friend Gunther, the one who worked for the Stasi, was also... The Stasi tried to recruit him as an agent. But he had a love relationship at the time and, uh, he said politely, "No, I, I won't. I can't."

Lex Fridman 1:08:38 So you didn't have... That's the one thing that really could, uh-

Jack Barsky 1:08:42 Would've helped me.

Lex Fridman 1:08:43 Would've held you to this place, is love.

Jack Barsky 1:08:45 So you got the career on the one hand, my basketball team, the town that I would be part of the ruling elite of, a- and then we had this great adventure and the ability to, uh, contribute to the victory, the worldwide victory of communism, and, and stick it to the Nazis.

Lex Fridman 1:09:04 Yeah.

Jack Barsky 1:09:04 And of course the feeling that you're really special.

Lex Fridman 1:09:07 Yeah. James Bond.

Jack Barsky 1:09:08 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 1:09:09 What's... (laughs) The, the, the question, "Do I wanna be a tenured professor or James Bond?"

Jack Barsky 1:09:15 Yes. And, and-

Lex Fridman 1:09:16 And that... As funny as that sounds, that was probably a difficult decision.

Jack Barsky 1:09:19 It was a difficult decision, but fundamentally, it wasn't... It... And it wasn't my, uh, zeal, uh, to, to help the revolution. It was my, uh, my, uh... What they called... What the Stasi was looking for, the KGB was looking for in, in, in a character that they would send over a well-controlled inclination to adventure, okay?

Lex Fridman 1:09:44 (laughs) Yeah. Yeah, James Bond, what are you gonna say? (laughs) And the love of women, yeah. (laughs)

Jack Barsky 1:09:50 I was... (laughs) Yes, uh, I, I gotta put this in right here because I- I'm telling people I have two things in common with James Bond. These are my initials, JB. And, and, uh, I got the girl too. Three times. (laughs)

Lex Fridman 1:10:09 Yeah, I mean, th- that's... And that's adventure.

Jack Barsky 1:10:11 Yeah. And, and, uh-

Lex Fridman 1:10:12 That's adventure.

Jack Barsky 1:10:13 And, and, and the ability to travel to the West, because the West was closed off to us. We could go to foreign countries, but they all had to be communist countries. You know, I wanted to see Paris because I, I had, uh, uh, fallen in love with a Honoré Balzac, who wrote-

Lex Fridman 1:10:30 Balzac, yeah.

Jack Barsky 1:10:32 ... a phenomenal set of novels that I just ate up. And so I, I... When I eventually did go to Paris, I knew all the places already because he described them all. But anyway, so that one, it was a... It was 51/49, but eventually, it...

Lex Fridman 1:10:48 (laughs)

Jack Barsky 1:10:48 You know, when you, when you do the side by side, um, um, intellectual comparison, that doesn't work. It becomes a tie and then, you know, you just go with your gut. And I said, "Hey, I'm in."

Lex Fridman 1:11:00 So now that you successfully passed the test, and you were sitting with this unimpressive man and had the invite and had to sleep on it, and have made the decision to join-

Jack Barsky 1:11:14 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 1:11:14 ... what was next?

Jack Barsky 1:11:16 I was just told to... You know, that I was being recruited by the State Department of East Germany. I was going to become a diplomat. I must have had some paper, but I forgot because y- you... Just by saying so, then that would... That wouldn't have worked.

Lex Fridman 1:11:31 There was some kind of document that says that came with it?

Jack Barsky 1:11:33 Yeah, yeah.

Lex Fridman 1:11:33 And that was the only entanglement you had to that, to that place? No love, no...

Jack Barsky 1:11:38 That's right.

Lex Fridman 1:11:38 Just the basketball. Uh-

Jack Barsky 1:11:40 Oh, basketball. Giving up basketball was huge for me. I loved playing that game. I started playing basketball when, when I was 18.

Lex Fridman 1:11:47 Mm-hmm.

Jack Barsky 1:11:48 That's a little late.

Lex Fridman 1:11:49 Are you better offensive, defensive? What do you like more? Do you like to shoot from a distance? Do you like to layup?

Jack Barsky 1:11:54 Um, I was a runner. I, I was-

Lex Fridman 1:11:57 Fast?

Jack Barsky 1:11:57 ... very quick on my feet.

Lex Fridman 1:11:59 Mm.

Jack Barsky 1:11:59 And I was a good jumper too. I typically pay- uh, played the, uh, the four position, you know?

Lex Fridman 1:12:07 What's that?

Jack Barsky 1:12:07 Uh, forward.

Lex Fridman 1:12:09 Oh, the forward position.

Jack Barsky 1:12:10 Forward position. But anyway, um, so that, that, that was the hardest, uh, of... For me to give up. Um, but... And the, the other thing that I remember I had to do, to hand in my party document to the party secretary of the university. And, uh, he made a comment, "Yeah, we probably won't hear much about you, but, uh, we know that you're gonna do something very important." So he sort of had an, had an inkling that, uh, I'm go- I'm gonna go someplace, uh, undercover or something like that. And then I packed my bags.... and, uh, got on a train, uh, to Berlin for another one of those secret meetings with, uh, my, my new handler, Nikolai. So, and here, here came another test that, that would have been quite easy to fail. So, all right (sighs) . I had lived, uh, in Jena for six years in a dorm. Even when I became a, an employee of the university, they didn't, they didn't have apartments. I was still living in a dorm, in, in a one... in a single room, with a bed, a chair, and a table, and a toilet down the, down the hallway. So I figured, you know, Berlin KGB, I'm gonna get a nice apartment, right? And so, uh, uh, Nikolai took me into his car. We started talking a little bit, and then he said, "I have a task for you already. Your first task is to find yourself a place to live." I mean, I don't think I showed it in my face (laughs) , but, you know, my heart, my, my, my, my heart dropped, like, down to (laughs) , into my pants, like... I knew this was n- nearly impossible, because there was a severe, uh, shortage of, uh, of housing in, in, in, in everywhere in Germany, East Germany. A- And all the apartments and homes were controlled by, by the government. You, you know, there were long waiting lists. Uh, I, I know, I knew couples that, uh, were promised maybe to get an apartment, uh, five years down the road. So, and then they would postpone their decision to have a child. Anyway, this was impossible. Oh, well, you know, but this was a test, okay? You know. And so we get... because I had to be inventive now. I had to figure out, uh, how to get out of an impossible situation. I didn't realize it then, at all. I just, like, went with the flow, you know? What, what do I do? (clears throat) So, what I did, I went... I, I took the, the, the train, the city train, uh, to the very last stop, a little, uh, town called Akna, and I wandered around in that town, and, uh, knocked on doors and asked people if, if they knew, uh, where somebody might have a place to live. And after a couple of hours, somebody said, "There's this lady that..." you know, and she gave m- and they gave me the address. And I talked to the lady, and she said, "I happen to have a place that you might, uh, that, where you might be able to stay." It was an outbuilding. Uh, I don't know what it w- what it served. It was not a garage. It was concrete, and it had, um, a bed and a chair, a running cold water, and a stove, a cold stove. That was my... was going to be my...

Lex Fridman 1:15:28 Pretty basic. Pretty basic. That's-

Jack Barsky 1:15:29 Pretty basic? Are you kidding me? (laughs)

Lex Fridman 1:15:31 That, that's the, uh...

Jack Barsky 1:15:32 Toilet across the, the, the, the yard, of course.

Lex Fridman 1:15:35 Yeah. Well, all the essentials. What are you complaining about?

Jack Barsky 1:15:38 (laughs)

Lex Fridman 1:15:38 So, you, you were right (laughs) . You're r- you had to run the, uh, the special... The James Bond had to run the spec- uh, special operation out of the-

Jack Barsky 1:15:45 Yes.

Lex Fridman 1:15:46 ... outhouse.

Jack Barsky 1:15:46 To-

Lex Fridman 1:15:47 Got it.

Jack Barsky 1:15:47 (laughs) To my credit, and I think that, that, that, uh, that, uh, established part of my reputation, I didn't complain at all to Nikolai, no.

Lex Fridman 1:15:56 That was part of the test probably, yeah.

Jack Barsky 1:15:59 Yeah. I just told him, "You know, I found something." And so, uh, for six months, I would get up in the morning, get on the train, and walk around in the city, you know, uh, did some operational stuff, op- uh, operational training. I went to the library, did a lot of reading in the library, and then I found a basketball team that I could join so at least I could take a shower t- uh, twice a week. Um, and, uh, and apparently, uh, it w- took about six months that I was still on probation, because after six months, Nikolai one day... we were still meeting in his car. He said... he, he handed me a key and he said, "I'm gonna take you to your new apartment." Now, I... and I didn't know this, you know, that... now I was really in, okay? (laughs) Imagine, you know, the hurdles you have to jump over, and how many times you can fail. But, you know...

Lex Fridman 1:16:56 But not complaining, not asking questions.

Jack Barsky 1:17:00 Yes.

Lex Fridman 1:17:01 I mean, that was something you've written about, um... I think you wrote that bosses do not like to hear complaints or problems, they prefer solutions.

Jack Barsky 1:17:09 That's right. (laughs)

Lex Fridman 1:17:10 So, what was your interaction like with the bosses? Is that... essentially, um, represent the way it went forward as well?

Jack Barsky 1:17:19 Yeah. I, I...

Lex Fridman 1:17:20 Just no complaints, get... solve the problem.

Jack Barsky 1:17:21 No complaints, n- no arguments, no, no, "I know this better." I was taking it all in. Now, the, the, the, the technical guys, you know, they taught me something I didn't know that made sense. Uh, um, what Nikolai... some of the stuff that he taught me was somewhat questionable. He was a generalist, and there's some things he didn't know really well. So, I could have, like, asked, probed a little bit, but I didn't. So I just played along (clears throat) . So this new apartment was a, uh, it was a studio. It, it had an, uh, a kitchen with running cold water, and the bathroom was just, uh, one flight down... the toilet, not a bathroom, uh, one flight down the, the s- the stairs. Uh...

Lex Fridman 1:18:06 It's an upgrade.

Jack Barsky 1:18:07 It was a big upgrade. (laughs)

Lex Fridman 1:18:08 Yeah.

Jack Barsky 1:18:09 And he gave me... uh, I think he gave me 1,000 mark to buy, buy furniture.

Lex Fridman 1:18:14 Mm-hmm.

Jack Barsky 1:18:14 And in that place, I... actually, I also bought a TV and started watching West German television. So, so, it, it, uh... I finally had a decent place to stay. Um, and the, the... my training in Berlin took about

Jack Barsky 1:18:30 two years.

Lex Fridman 1:18:30 What was the training? What were the interesting aspects to the training? What, what were sort of, if you-

Jack Barsky 1:18:36 Okay.

Lex Fridman 1:18:36 ... do an overview systematic of what was the training process, what was difficult-

Jack Barsky 1:18:40 Right.

Lex Fridman 1:18:40 ... what are some insights that generalize to the training process of what it takes to be a KGB spy?

Jack Barsky 1:18:46 Right. So, uh, let me start with the trade craft.... so I was taught Morse code. That took a while. Uh, I- I- I was, uh, instructed in how to, you know, use a shortwave radio and to receive, uh, you- you- the- the shortwave, uh, transmissions with Morse code.

Lex Fridman 1:19:08 Mm-hmm.

Jack Barsky 1:19:08 I was taught, uh, uh, an- a encryption and decryption algorithm, manual a- algorithm.

Lex Fridman 1:19:15 Manually, yep.

Jack Barsky 1:19:16 You- you might be interested that eventually I figured out, uh, at least one of the patterns. Uh, the- the algorithm was such that the- and this was all about digits, like... Uh, a- and the algorithm was such that in the end, the- uh, the digits that were used to decipher other digits that were handed- th- th- that were sent to me via shortwave radio, there were... Let's say, if there were 100 digits, there were an equal number of ones, twos, threes, fours, fives, sixes, and seven-s, up until zero. And I was told that, uh, these, um, algorithms, these manual algorithms were- were good for about 300 uses. After that, they could still be deciphered. I'm assuming nowadays that wouldn't take as much. (laughs)

Lex Fridman 1:20:06 Yeah, yeah, with- with computers, for sure. But there's probably- uh, they're probably designed in a way that you can manually sort of, uh, it's efficient and convenient to use them manually.

Jack Barsky 1:20:18 Well, it's-

Lex Fridman 1:20:19 It's not to optimize cryptographic security. It's to optimize... It's, like, to balance security and, like, humans being able to actually...

Jack Barsky 1:20:27 Yeah. No, I got to disagree. It was neither efficient nor convenient.

Lex Fridman 1:20:30 Okay.

Jack Barsky 1:20:30 It w- took a long time.

Lex Fridman 1:20:32 So it wasn't designed well. (laughs)

Jack Barsky 1:20:33 Uh, when- what was- what was significantly easier to do, uh, but, uh, that would require you to have spy paraphernalia with you, this- this is what's called a one-time pad.

Lex Fridman 1:20:44 Uh-huh.

Jack Barsky 1:20:44 So you have the- the set of numbers-

Lex Fridman 1:20:46 Yeah.

Jack Barsky 1:20:47 ... on- on a sheet of paper, uh, that had to be developed. I had to use iodine to make those numbers visible. Those are known to be, uh, unbreakable unless they are used multiple times, the same- the same sheet of paper.

Lex Fridman 1:21:02 Mm-hmm.

Jack Barsky 1:21:03 Because, you know, the person who encrypts has the same set of numbers as the person w- uh, who decrypts. And one- uh, o- one-time use, you cannot figure out wh- what the message is.

Lex Fridman 1:21:14 Oh, interesting. But this is a quick way to communicate from one person to another, one time.

Jack Barsky 1:21:18 Yes, the-

Lex Fridman 1:21:19 One time.

Jack Barsky 1:21:19 W- one time, but I had a pad with multiple, uh, sheets of paper, right?

Lex Fridman 1:21:23 Oh, okay.

Jack Barsky 1:21:24 And, uh, the reason that, uh, they gave me a manual one is because I literally... I had only... When I- when I wound up in the United States, I had only one thing with me that, uh, only a spy can have, and that was a, uh, a writing pad with, uh, where the first 10 pages or so were impregnated with a trace of a chemical that was used for s- secret writing. Uh, but you really would have to know what you're looking for to... You know, you see this pad, it was bu- bought at, you know, Walmart, and-

Lex Fridman 1:21:56 Can you explain a little- a little further, what- what is the chemical here that... What are we talking about? So how... I- I- I don't understand how it's possible to have a physical pad that does the encryption without any computing. I- how does it encrypt?

Jack Barsky 1:22:10 All right, so- so no, no, it doesn't- it doesn't do any work, you know. So and my- the- uh, the communication that- the encrypted communication was, uh, was a s- uh, a set of, uh, uh, groups of five, five digits and another five, and- and there's always a gap in between.

Lex Fridman 1:22:29 Mm-hmm.

Jack Barsky 1:22:30 Uh, and then so let's say if I get this radio transmission, I write them all down-

Lex Fridman 1:22:35 Mm-hmm.

Jack Barsky 1:22:35 ... and then I- then I use my- uh, develop my algorithm, and then I do mathematics, either addition or subtraction.

Lex Fridman 1:22:42 Mm-hmm.

Jack Barsky 1:22:42 The resulting set of digits had- then had a one-to-one correlation to letters.

Lex Fridman 1:22:48 Got it. And this is an easy way to then do the correlation?

Jack Barsky 1:22:51 Yes.

Lex Fridman 1:22:51 Got it, got it, got it, got it.

Jack Barsky 1:22:52 Yes.

Lex Fridman 1:22:52 Well, that's cool. That's uh- and you're saying the algorithm was not efficient? It was not-

Jack Barsky 1:22:57 Oh, the manual, it to- took a long time, and- and you can't make an error. (laughs)

Lex Fridman 1:23:02 Right. Uh, would you know where... Can you... Is it easy to debug? No, you- no.

Jack Barsky 1:23:07 No, you do it twice.

Lex Fridman 1:23:09 You do it twice, and that's how you check, double check.

Jack Barsky 1:23:10 If it's identical, then you know. (laughs)

Lex Fridman 1:23:12 But, like, if it's not, then you have-

Jack Barsky 1:23:14 If it's not, then yeah, th- and then one is right and the other is wrong, and you've got to do it again.

Lex Fridman 1:23:16 So you just don't make mistakes?

Jack Barsky 1:23:17 No, that's right, and I re- really didn't. But anyway, um, so the- I was- I was learning that. Uh, I was also, uh, told, uh, that I was required to become proficient in another language, and they gave me a choice, and I picked English. That's-

Lex Fridman 1:23:36 What was the other one?

Jack Barsky 1:23:37 Oh, no, they gave me pick one, French.

Lex Fridman 1:23:39 Oh, okay.

Jack Barsky 1:23:39 You know, wh- whatever is spoken in the West.

Lex Fridman 1:23:40 Okay, got it. Uh, what was- what was- what would be second to you? Would- would you think French because of Paris? What would you... Why- why English?

Jack Barsky 1:23:49 English was a no-brainer because I- I was a straight A stu- A- A student in English without studying. Uh, like, it c- came so easily to me.

Lex Fridman 1:23:57 Yeah.

Jack Barsky 1:23:58 So that's why I ch- chose it, right?

Lex Fridman 1:24:01 (laughs) All right.

Jack Barsky 1:24:02 Uh, so that was that. Uh, then, uh, um, I, uh, I wa- I was taught the basics of, um, uh, counter-surveillance. You know, some trickery and- and- and, uh, um, surveillance detection routes where you wander around in a city for three hours and determine whether you're being followed or not.

Lex Fridman 1:24:25 Mm-hmm.

Jack Barsky 1:24:26 That requires you to plan the route very well. I give you one example that, uh, that will, uh, illustrate that. Uh, it's my- my favorite spot, uh, when- when- when I was in Moscow, I did a lot of that also. Um, and it's d- my favorite spot was, uh, it was a, uh, not well-traveled, uh, uh, road. It- it went down the hill and- and curved, and at the bottom of the hill, there was a telephone booth.... and when you open the door, and, and pick up the telephone, you have to look back.

Lex Fridman 1:25:00 Mm-hmm.

Jack Barsky 1:25:00 So it wasn't like this, right? It wasn't a giveaway. This was normal. It was natural. So I could see if somebody would come walking after me. You know, these kinds of things. Or you would, uh, uh, you know, use, um, public transportation, um, big buildings, um, where you needed to use an elevator and see who's... Because surveillance, the, the object of surveillance is to never lose sight of the individual who you're surveilling, because at that point, you may miss the window where, where he does something that-

Lex Fridman 1:25:35 Yeah.

Jack Barsky 1:25:35 ... that you're looking for. So somebody al- al- always has to come close, right?

Lex Fridman 1:25:40 Did you have to also study surveillance?

Jack Barsky 1:25:44 No.

Lex Fridman 1:25:45 So how-

Jack Barsky 1:25:45 Only counter-surveillance. And what helped me in, in, in all my training, uh, you know, I, I would be, uh... would have a competition with the folks that were coming, that were following me, and me.

Lex Fridman 1:26:00 Mm-hmm.

Jack Barsky 1:26:00 And I beat them every time. Uh, they were at a disadvantage because one of them always had to be close, and, and if you saw the same face twice, you knew that you were being followed. And I had a very, very good, uh, memory for, for faces.

Lex Fridman 1:26:15 So basically, figure out a fixed route.

Jack Barsky 1:26:18 Yeah. Mm-hmm.

Lex Fridman 1:26:19 And then... A fixed route that allows you to, uh, survey the area. And then-

Jack Barsky 1:26:25 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 1:26:25 ... record the faces you see in-

Jack Barsky 1:26:27 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 1:26:27 ... inside your mind.

Jack Barsky 1:26:28 Yes.

Lex Fridman 1:26:28 And if, uh, you see multiple times-

Jack Barsky 1:26:31 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 1:26:31 ... a single face, that's, that's a bad sign.

Jack Barsky 1:26:33 And, and they, they could, they could, uh, use, uh, different clothes.

Lex Fridman 1:26:37 Yeah.

Jack Barsky 1:26:37 Uh, what they didn't have was face masks.

Lex Fridman 1:26:41 Yeah.

Jack Barsky 1:26:41 The CIA does nowadays. They, they can give you a different face with- within seconds.

Lex Fridman 1:26:47 Oh my God.

Jack Barsky 1:26:48 Yeah (laughs) .

Lex Fridman 1:26:49 So how big... (laughs) I mean, again, you talk about paranoia. Uh-

Jack Barsky 1:26:56 Uh-huh.

Lex Fridman 1:26:56 ... um, is that part of the... Is that a big part of the job, uh, counter-surveillance? Like, being constantly paranoid that you're being watched?

Jack Barsky 1:27:08 Y- yeah, I was supposed to-

Lex Fridman 1:27:09 Isn't that quite stressful? So is that, is that one of the... Is that actually an effective way to operate? Uh...

Jack Barsky 1:27:14 No, but it sort of becomes a routine. Uh, I was told to do it, uh, while in the US, uh, once a month. And, uh-

Lex Fridman 1:27:22 Okay, it's like a cleaning out.

Jack Barsky 1:27:24 Oh, not, not every day. No, no, no, no, no.

Lex Fridman 1:27:26 Okay.

Jack Barsky 1:27:26 Once a month or before I would say mail a letter with secret writing. So I was sure that, you know, nobody saw me put an envelope into a-

Lex Fridman 1:27:36 Got it.

Jack Barsky 1:27:36 ... a post box.

Lex Fridman 1:27:38 So this is one of the tools in your toolbox. So there's Morse code, there's-

Jack Barsky 1:27:41 Yes.

Lex Fridman 1:27:42 ... decryption and encryption, there's the counter-surveillance.

Jack Barsky 1:27:45 Photography.

Lex Fridman 1:27:46 Photography. Cool.

Jack Barsky 1:27:47 Um, making, making microdots. You know what a microdot is?

Lex Fridman 1:27:52 No. What's a microdot?

Jack Barsky 1:27:52 Well, that's uh, that's uh... You use... You take a photograph and you use a microscope in reverse and make that photograph really small, so small that it's like the, the head of a pin, that