James Sexton: Divorce Lawyer on Marriage, Relationships, Sex, Lies & Love | Lex Fridman Podcast #396

1. 0:00 – 2:34

   Introduction

   1. JSJames Sexton0:00

      We have been encouraged, culturally, to criticize people we're in long-term relationships with. Not new relationships. New relationships, you put the person on a pedestal, you're allowed to just, "Oh, they're wonderful." But every trope out there, in every form of popular media, is like the wife rolling her eyes at the husband-

   2. LFLex Fridman0:17

      Yeah.

   3. JSJames Sexton0:17

      ... and the husband being like, "Ugh, this loathesome harpy that castrated me," as if, like, people are just passive players in their lives. And I-I-I think that is an incredibly toxic message to send to people-

   4. LFLex Fridman0:31

      Yeah.

   5. JSJames Sexton0:31

      ... that- that this is how we should be relating to our partner. Like, we should not, you don't take the piss outta your partner in front of people.

   6. LFLex Fridman0:37

      Yeah.

   7. JSJames Sexton0:37

      Like, the successful relationships I've seen are where people are just cheering for their partner, where they are thick as thieves, where there is just this feeling of like, "Man, they like each other," like they are, "they got each other's back like you wouldn't believe." Like, man, you could take sides against anybody-

   8. LFLex Fridman0:54

      Mm-hmm.

   9. JSJames Sexton0:54

      ... but take sides against their partner? You're going down. Like, and that, when- when you see a couple that has that, you- you just, you know, they- they, it's- that's so hard to break, but- but I think that comes from having like a steadfast, "Yeah, no, I don't do that."

   10. LFLex Fridman1:15

       Yeah.

   11. JSJames Sexton1:15

       Like I don't shit talk my partner.

   12. LFLex Fridman1:17

       Yeah.

   13. JSJames Sexton1:17

       Like, and you don't shit talk my partner to me.

   14. LFLex Fridman1:20

       Yeah.

   15. JSJames Sexton1:21

       You know? Like, and that to me is when, because I think we're just so criticized by the world, the world is so full of criticism, we criticize ourselves so harshly, that having a partner who no matter what is like, "You've got this. I'm with you," like you fi-, "Okay, yeah, you screwed up. I see it. Look, I'm not gonna lie to you about your blind spots. You screwed up, but you know what? People screw up sometimes. You got a right to screw up. A lot of people screw up. Come on, get up. Let's go. I know-"

   16. LFLex Fridman1:45

       Yeah.

   17. JSJames Sexton1:46

       "... you have it in you." If you have that person, like that, I- I feel like that's a, that's a superpower.

   18. LFLex Fridman1:54

       The following is a conversation with James Sexton, divorce attorney and author of How to Stay in Love: A Divorce Lawyer's Guide to Staying Together. As a trial lawyer, James, for over two decades has negotiated and litigated a huge number of high conflict divorces. This has given him a deep understanding of how relationships fail and how they can succeed, and bigger than that, the role of love and pain in this whole messy rollercoaster ride we call life. This is the Lex Fridman Podcast. To support it, please check out our sponsors in the description. And now dear friends, here's James Sexton.

2. 2:34 – 24:05

   Why marriages fail

   1. LFLex Fridman2:34

      What is the most common reason that marriages fail?

   2. JSJames Sexton2:38

      That's a great question, but it's a question that everybody wants there to be a simple answer. Like they want me to say cheating, or money, or you know, the internet. But- but the reality is, I think it's a lot of little things. It's dis- disconnection. That would be my answer. The reason marriages fail is disconnection. What causes disconnection? That's the bigger, and I think more important question, because like Tom Wolfe said about bankruptcy, it happens very slowly and then all at once. Disconnection happens very slowly and then all at once. So most of the time what I think people want is an answer like cheating, but cheating is the big all at once thing. How did we get to the place where cheating was even something you were thinking about doing or that you would think about and then cross the line from thought into action? And that's, I think the- the big question. So disconnection would be my answer.

   3. LFLex Fridman3:36

      Do you think it's possible to introspect, like looking backwards for every individual case where the disconnection began and how it evolved?

   4. JSJames Sexton3:43

      Sure, yeah. This is such a multivariate equation. It's- it's a- it's a dance, it's a chemistry, it's a- it's what did you do and what did the other person do? And see the- the interesting thing about being a divorce lawyer is I'm weaponizing intimacy in a courtroom. So I'm- I'm- I'm telling, it's full context storytelling what I do for a living. So what I do is I take my client's story and I have to present it to a judge and make my client the hero in every way, and the other side the villain in every way. Now, I have to be careful not to do that in a manner that- that loses credibility, because even a judge would know, even a judge is smart enough to know that no one's all good or all bad. But only if you were reverse engineering a relationship and saying, "How did this break?" You really have to look at both people, the good and the bad, you know, what- what each of them did that moved the dial in these different directions. And I think that that's, um, that's very hard for anyone going through a divorce to do about their own relationship. You know, we don't know who discovered water, but it wasn't a fish. Like if you're in it, I don't think you see it clearly. I think as a divorce lawyer whose job is to really drill down on the facts and figure out what's going on in this story, I have to look at both sides. So I have to think a lot about my own arguments, but I also have to think about what's the other lawyer's argument going to be, especially in custody cases. So I really have been forced to look at both sides for so many years so deeply in relationships that once you do that, it's very, you realize that the good guy, bad guy thing just doesn't apply.

   5. LFLex Fridman5:27

      I wonder if it's the little things or a few big things that caused this connection, whether it's, uh, I mean, you've talked about granola and blow jobs.

   6. JSJames Sexton5:35

      Mm-hmm.

   7. LFLex Fridman5:36

      Um, but those seem to be stories that you can con- tell to yourself, like, um, maybe- maybe that story should be explained, uh, or maybe not.

   8. JSJames Sexton5:46

      Oh, you don't think, you don't think granola and blow jobs is self-explanatory?

   9. LFLex Fridman5:48

      Almost. I think, I think people can construct a good, like if you ask GPT what do they mean, I think the story that would come up is a pretty good one. But, you know, that's a story you tell about when you first knew it's- the disconnection has begun is when he stopped putting gr- my, buying my favorite granola, or when she stopped...... giving blow jobs.

   10. JSJames Sexton6:09

       I would say when it's reached, like, a critical mass.

   11. LFLex Fridman6:12

       Yeah, phase shift of some sort.

   12. JSJames Sexton6:14

       'Cause I think it started before that, when she said, "Yeah, I used to give him blow jobs and, you know, when we were in our early relationship, and then one day, like, I just was like, 'Oh, well, you know, we don't have as much time, like, we'll, I'll wait until later and we'll have sex and then we both enjoy it.'"

   13. LFLex Fridman6:27

       Blow jobs are inefficient.

   14. JSJames Sexton6:29

       Yeah, exactly correct. (laughs) So...

   15. LFLex Fridman6:30

       You batch it all together into one-

   16. JSJames Sexton6:31

       Yeah, so she said, "Well, exact-" And they had kids at that point, so I think she really was like, "Hey we've gotten to a certain window."

   17. LFLex Fridman6:36

       Yeah.

   18. JSJames Sexton6:37

       "So let's have something we both enjoy." So I don't think she had any negative intentions there. I think that, that she was working in good faith towards the betterment of the relationship, but it was having this second order effect. And so I, I, I really do think that, yeah, the blow jobs, granola, I mean there, anyone who's been in a long-term relationship, I guess it's just worth asking the question, "What, what does this person do that makes me feel loved?" Because I, I, I think it's very interesting in my own experience in life, I was, remember, I, I had a difficult chapter with one of my sons, my younger son, when he was in his early 20s, and we were having a, a heartfelt conversation and I said to him, "Do you, do you know I love you?" And he said, "Well, yeah, of course you do." I said, "But do you feel my love? Like, do you feel it? You know? Not just that you know it intellectually, do you feel it?" And I remember thinking to myself, "When do we feel someone's love, right?" Like, what, what is it that they do? And sometimes it's the weirdest, silliest things that they would never know. They, or the person who's showing us that they love us and that we're feeling their love, they would never show us.

   19. LFLex Fridman7:56

       Mm-hmm.

   20. JSJames Sexton7:57

       Like if you said, "Why, why does this person love you?" They wouldn't say, "Oh, 'cause, um, I always make sure that when the paper comes, I bring it from the bottom of the driveway to the door so they don't have to go out and get it." Or, "I always hold the door for them." Or, "I," you know, "Oh, I always..." Like, again, "I buy the granola that I know this person likes." You know? Or, "I, I remembered that they don't like it when I put on this particular record so I don't put it on." Like, and, and those are these, yes, they're small things, but they're not small. They're kind of everything.

   21. LFLex Fridman8:29

       Do you think it's good to communicate that stuff?

   22. JSJames Sexton8:31

       Well, 100%.

   23. LFLex Fridman8:33

       It takes away some of the power of it, right?

   24. JSJames Sexton8:36

       When you point it out, then the person realizes, "Oh, okay, he likes this or dislikes this." So yes, there becomes a deliberateness to it-

   25. LFLex Fridman8:44

       Mm-hmm.

   26. JSJames Sexton8:44

       ... you know, a conscious... So I understand not pointing that out when it's a good thing. I think when it's a negative thing, like I, I think in, in the granola situation-

   27. LFLex Fridman8:57

       Mm-hmm.

   28. JSJames Sexton8:58

       ... if she had said to him, "Hey, you used to do this and you've stopped," that feels like something to me. Like, she, she said, she didn't say anything about that, just like he probably didn't say anything about the blow jobs.

   29. LFLex Fridman9:11

       Mm-hmm.

   30. JSJames Sexton9:11

       Like, I think if there had been a moment of, "This is starting. Let's talk about it while it's starting," but people wait. From what I can see, people wait-
3. 24:05 – 33:22

   Sex and fetishes

   1. LFLex Fridman24:05

      you have a full section in your book on, on foot fetishes.

   2. JSJames Sexton24:09

      I do. I do.

   3. LFLex Fridman24:10

      (laughs) Yeah.

   4. JSJames Sexton24:10

      Which is funny because I don't know anything about foot fetishes.

   5. LFLex Fridman24:12

      Me neither.

   6. JSJames Sexton24:13

      Yeah.

   7. LFLex Fridman24:13

      Me neither.

   8. JSJames Sexton24:14

      Like I can't... I'm not kink shaming anybody, but like there's nothing sexual about feet to me at all. Like I just don't get it. I don't... But I mean, listen, if people like things, it's good, you know? But yeah, I, I have had clients that have-... odd fetishes or sexual proclivities or things they want to do, and they don't share it with their partner at all, and then they find an outlet for it because they try to go without it and that doesn't work, so they try to find some other outlet for it, and then that's interpreted as a betrayal and it creates distance and people split up. And of course, everybody likes to have, like, a, you know, a bad guy to blame it on, so when you say, "Well, why'd you guys get divorced?" "Oh, because he secretly had a foot fetish and he was on these message boards, like-

   9. LFLex Fridman24:55

      Right.

   10. JSJames Sexton24:55

       ... meeting people." Uh, well, it gives you an easy answer as to why the two of you split up. But I don't think, you know, most divorces have such simple answers as it was a foot thing. But I also think too, like, listen, if you got a partner, I mean, we all do stuff that we're not super into-

   11. LFLex Fridman25:09

       Mm-hmm.

   12. JSJames Sexton25:09

       ... because we're in a relationship, and that's what part of it is. Like, do you really want to go see that chick flick? Do you really want to eat at this restaurant? Do you really want to go to her cousin's wedding? No. But, you know, part of being in a relationship is, okay, if you're into this, I'm gonna pretend this song's a good song, you know, even though it's not my favorite song. And, and I think... I, I just don't know. We've turned sex... I mean, sex has been so politicized in recent years. Maybe it always was. But I, I, I think we've made it into something where we can't just... I don't know, I'm not into feet, but if the woman I love was like, you know, "I'm really into feet. Like, I really want to do stuff with your feet." I'd be like, "All right, I can pretend that I'm into that." Like, for... It's not gonna kill me.

   13. LFLex Fridman25:50

       Yeah.

   14. JSJames Sexton25:51

       You know? I'm not gonna be able to make it a centerpiece of our coupling, but, you know, like, yeah, I can pretend I'm into feet if you want.

   15. LFLex Fridman25:56

       I don't personally have any fetishes that are outside of the, um, the normal discourse.

   16. JSJames Sexton26:02

       As a divorce lawyer, I, I get to experience the whole spectrum.

   17. LFLex Fridman26:06

       But if I, like if I was into like furries, for example-

   18. JSJames Sexton26:09

       Yeah.

   19. LFLex Fridman26:09

       ... I don't know how I would initiate the conversation with my partner about that.

   20. JSJames Sexton26:15

       But, but frame the question the other direction.

   21. LFLex Fridman26:17

       Yeah.

   22. JSJames Sexton26:17

       If you were into furries-

   23. LFLex Fridman26:20

       Yeah.

   24. JSJames Sexton26:21

       ... how do you prevent your partner from knowing anything about that? That feels like a real... You'd have to make a conscious choice to not let your partner know that.

   25. LFLex Fridman26:32

       Sure, sure.

   26. JSJames Sexton26:33

       So, so I, I, I don't think either of those is a particularly palatable or easy proposition.

   27. LFLex Fridman26:40

       But a lot of people live life hiding some part of themselves.

   28. JSJames Sexton26:44

       Yeah, quite unsuccessfully. Like, it, it... The, the, the second order effects of that are very rarely positive.

   29. LFLex Fridman26:50

       Sure.

   30. JSJames Sexton26:51

       I don't, I don't think I've ever met someone and went, "Yeah, I really hid this huge part of myself for an extended period of time-"
4. 33:22 – 59:09

   Breakups

   1. JSJames Sexton33:22

      Like I... You know, being in the jujitsu community like I- I'm around, you know, as, as you are all, like incredibly tough people, like physically tough people, mentally tough people.

   2. LFLex Fridman33:32

      Mm.

   3. JSJames Sexton33:32

      But, you know, I've seen some of those people taken down-

   4. LFLex Fridman33:36

      Yeah.

   5. JSJames Sexton33:36

      ... by 120-pound woman.

   6. LFLex Fridman33:39

      (laughs)

   7. JSJames Sexton33:39

      You know? Not, not, not from a grappling perspective.

   8. LFLex Fridman33:42

      Yeah.

   9. JSJames Sexton33:42

      But they are taken apart-

   10. LFLex Fridman33:44

       Yeah.

   11. JSJames Sexton33:45

       ... by a woman in their life, and, and vice versa. I've seen men, you know, who like... It, it really is shocking how much leverage we give to our romantic partners and how little discussion we really, genuine discussion we really have about it, how much we really are ever trained to think about it. You know, there's nothing in school that teaches us about it. So much of literature and art is an idealized version of it.

   12. LFLex Fridman34:13

       Mm-hmm.

   13. JSJames Sexton34:13

       So little of it is, is real.

   14. LFLex Fridman34:16

       And no matter how it evolves e- ev- when it ends in tragedy or, uh, drama, I feel like what people don't do enough is appreciate the good times. Like, appreciate how beautiful it is to having taken the risk and to having experienced that kind of love. I mean, when you look at people in... that are divorcing each other. Uh, there's a Edgar Allan Poe quote, "The years of love have been forgot in the hatred of a minute." I always kinda am saddened, like deeply saddened how people seem to forget how many beautiful moments have been shared when some reason, some drama, some breakup leads them to part ways.

   15. JSJames Sexton35:02

       Yeah, yeah. It's interesting that you came to that not being a divorce lawyer because I, I've felt that way for a long time. And I really try to say to my clients... Like in the courtroom at the negotiating table, I have a, a role to play where I have to be sort of like a pit bull or a, you know, some kind of a, like a courtroom sociopath. But behind closed doors, like I'm very candid with people. I'm trying to be much more emotionally attuned with them.

   16. LFLex Fridman35:26

       So you're an empath in the sheets and sociopath in the streets.

   17. JSJames Sexton35:30

       Exactly correct.

   18. LFLex Fridman35:31

       Okay.

   19. JSJames Sexton35:31

       That's well said. I ............................ Well, that's a... I got a new tattoo idea. That's good. I like that.

   20. LFLex Fridman35:35

       (laughs)

   21. JSJames Sexton35:36

       I, I... But I, I do believe when I'm behind closed doors with people, I say to them, "How you end things is gonna be how you're gonna remember the whole thing." And, and that's unfortunate because, you know, you watch like a two-hour movie and if the last 15 minutes of it sucked, you go, "Well, that movie sucked." Like, well, the first hour and 45 was great, you know? But you walk out with this bad taste in your mouth. I, I'm genuinely in awe of how easily people forget that they loved each other. And, and I'm amazed because by the time I meet them and by the time they, they hire me to be a weapon against the person they were in love with, there's nothing but animosity there. And so I have to try to imagine what these two people looked like when they were in love with each other and how that even existed. But-I have to tell you, like, I- I- you know, I- I don't function that way. Like, I- e- every woman I ever had a relationship with, like, I- when I think of them, I- I don't think of the ending necessarily. I think of- I try to think about the greatest hits. I try to think about the moments that were wonderful, where I loved them and they loved me, and, like, there was joy and there was connection. And I- I don't know why you'd choose not to. You know, it's- there's that old axiom, I don't know who said it, that if you don't learn to find joy in the snow, you'll have pre- you'll have less joy in your life and precisely the same amount of snow. (laughs) And I-

   22. LFLex Fridman37:11

       Yeah.

   23. JSJames Sexton37:12

       ... and I genuinely believe like, okay, the relationship ends. This is where it ends. We're done now. I- I am making a choice as to how I will remember you. And- and we do it in relationships. Like, I- I always tell people, you know, if you ever want to see a couple light up, if they're ever like the couple at the table that's, you know, it seems like they got in a fight or something, ask them how they met. And most people when they talk about how they met, like, their- their face softens. They both- and the other person looking at them telling the story gets that look you were talking about before.

   24. LFLex Fridman37:43

       Yeah, yeah, yeah.

   25. JSJames Sexton37:43

       And 'cause they remember that thing and how they felt at that moment. So when- when this person was a choice, not a default, not their automatic plus one, but the person they asked to the wedding. Not the, of course you're bringing her, it's your wife. You bring your fucking wife places. Like, it was still, hey, there's, like, you know, three and a half billion women and I'm picking you.

   26. LFLex Fridman38:05

       Yeah.

   27. JSJames Sexton38:05

       You know? Like, that- that feeling. And- and I don't know when- why when a relationship ends, you can't do that. A- a lesson I learned when my mother passed away of- of very- she had a two year terrible battle with cancer and was on hospice and was very, very sick. And it was a very slow and awful end. And I remember one of my worst fears was that this is how I would remember my mother for the rest of my life, that I would never be able to think of her, that I didn't think of what she had become in the last months, where she was withered away to nothing in- in this bed, you know? And I learned over time that memory is very kind, that like that faded somehow, and that now like when I remember her, I remember her healthy and vibrant. I remember her laughter. I remember positive things. Some of that is I like to look at photos of that, or- but some of it is just how I think memory works. And I- I- I don't know why we don't apply that to relationships. And I think part of it is because we have this binary view of relationships, that it's either success, which means you live happily ever after for the rest of your lives and die together, or like in short succession, or it was wrong, it was awful. And I- I don't understand why that would have to be how we do it. I think we could look at relationships like what they are, which is chapters in a book, and that book is our life, and those chapters all have significance. And none of them would have- the later chapters, none of them would happen without the prior ones.

   28. LFLex Fridman39:43

       Mm-hmm.

   29. JSJames Sexton39:44

       So there's this beauty to me of that, and it's- I don't know if that grit's a choice or if that is how it is. And the rest is just narrative that we've put on top of it culturally for some reason.

   30. LFLex Fridman39:59

       Well, I think to- to push back a little bit, I think memory can also- I think it is a deliberate choice, 'cause I think memory can basically- that's how trauma works. It can surface the negative stuff, and the- the negative stuff completely drowns out all the positive. So it's- I think, uh, it's a deliberate choice to make your memory probably work that way. You know, in- in relationships, betrayal can do that, right? Sort of, uh, cheating, infidelity. Like one event-
5. 59:09 – 1:19:09

   Johnny Depp and Amber Heard

   1. JSJames Sexton59:09

      that was one of, you know, the Johnny Depp, Amber Heard thing was a great example of in a gunfight between those two, everyone was cheering for the bullets. I mean, no one was... I don't think anybody looked like a hero. They both looked like what they are, which is humans.

   2. LFLex Fridman59:23

      Yeah.

   3. JSJames Sexton59:23

      Really flawed humans who had, you know, it really is like that, that People magazine thing, stars, they're just like us, you know? Like we watched that and went like, "Oh yeah, they're just like us. Like they cannot keep it together." They cannot have like, they just have these ridiculous toxic moments where both of them look awful in that trial.

   4. LFLex Fridman59:42

      Well, what do you take away from that trial? Just, just given, given all the work you've done? I mean, for me, I don't know if you can speak to that. It's probably the first time I've seen that kind of a, a, a complicated relationship, even just to say a relationship laid out in this raw form.

   5. JSJames Sexton1:00:02

      Yeah.

   6. LFLex Fridman1:00:02

      Like the fights of a relationship.

   7. JSJames Sexton1:00:04

      Yeah. My feeling about that trial is there is no amount of money that would be worth laying that kind of stuff bare publicly.

   8. LFLex Fridman1:00:14

      For you, if you were Johnny Depp.

   9. JSJames Sexton1:00:15

      For me, yeah. There's no amount of money-

   10. LFLex Fridman1:00:17

       Or if you were Amber Heard. I don't know which.

   11. JSJames Sexton1:00:18

       Because they both look awful. They both look awful. And I don't think, I, I don't think I'm qualified to say if one or both of them are awful, but they both had moments in that courtroom where their behavior and words looked awful. And, and I just don't know that, that exposing that to the world, like the... I just don't know. I mean, I understand the point of view that, that by bringing that suit, Johnny Depp was saying, "Look, I, yeah, I have to show these awful things to the world about myself, but it's, it's not as bad as what she's claimed I've done." So I get it. I'm not saying that's incorrect. And for Amber Heard, I think her response is, "Well, for him to say I'm lying, you know, I have to prove my..."... but, my God, like, what a awful thing to watch. I- I- I, it was, all it really is, is just another, it's just another couple. Like, well there's so ... You know how banal that is? You know how many- many of those-

   12. LFLex Fridman1:01:12

       So this kind of stuff happens a lot?

   13. JSJames Sexton1:01:14

       A lot? It- it- it's the norm. It's not th- it's not the exception.

   14. LFLex Fridman1:01:19

       Yeah.

   15. JSJames Sexton1:01:19

       They just happen to have like a grand scale 'cause they have, you know, lots of people around them-

   16. LFLex Fridman1:01:23

       Yeah.

   17. JSJames Sexton1:01:23

       ... and lots of money. But yeah, it's all this ... that kind of dysfunction, that kind of chaos, that kind of he said/she said, two people with completely differing histories of what happened in the marriage, false allegations of domestic violence or true allegations of domestic violence that are completely denied by the person, and you have witnesses that will say, "Oh my God, they never engaged in any kind of ..." 'Cause again, no one engages in domestic violence with company over.

   18. LFLex Fridman1:01:47

       Mm-hmm.

   19. JSJames Sexton1:01:48

       You know, you don't like invite friends. Like people always say, they're like, "Oh no, I saw them, they seemed so happy." Like-

   20. LFLex Fridman1:01:51

       Mm-hmm.

   21. JSJames Sexton1:01:52

       ... people always do this to me as a divorce lawyer, they come in and they go, "Well here's photos of the kids, you know, smiling with me. So that's proof that like I'm a good dad." And I'm like, "There's photos of Jeffrey Dahmer smiling with people he ate later."

   22. LFLex Fridman1:02:05

       Yeah.

   23. JSJames Sexton1:02:05

       And you're- you're- you think these photos prove something?

   24. LFLex Fridman1:02:08

       Yeah.

   25. JSJames Sexton1:02:08

       Like I- I don't ... The lack of ... I'm in the middle of a very complex domestic violence trial, and the entire defense on the other side is, "Well, we have photos of them on vacation where they look very happy, and she never called the cops." That's no defense at all.

   26. LFLex Fridman1:02:23

       Mm-hmm.

   27. JSJames Sexton1:02:23

       Like most victims of intimate partner abuse don't call the cops. They don't identify, self-identify as victims of domestic violence.

   28. LFLex Fridman1:02:31

       And they probably have many stretches of time of intense happiness, or happiness.

   29. JSJames Sexton1:02:36

       Of course. Of course. And by the way, perpetrators of domestic violence are charismatic.

   30. LFLex Fridman1:02:41

       Hmm.

Episode duration: 3:44:36