Joe Rogan: Fear, Love, Chaos, and the Joe Rogan Experience | Lex Fridman Podcast #127

Lex Fridman 0:00 The following is a conversation with Joe Rogan that we recorded after my recent appearance on his podcast, The Joe Rogan Experience. Joe has been a inspiration to me and, I think, to millions of people for just being somebody who puts love out there in the world and being genuinely curious about wild ideas from chimps and psychedelics to quantum mechanics and artificial intelligence. Like many of you, I've been a fan of his podcast for over a decade and now, somehow, miraculously, am, uh, humbled to be able to call him a friend. If you enjoy this thing, subscribe on YouTube, review it with five stars on Apple Podcasts, follow on Spotify, support on Patreon, or connect with me on Twitter, @lexfriedman. Today's sponsors are Neuro, Eight Sleep, Dollar Shave Club, and Olive Garden, home of the unlimited breadsticks and Brian

Joe Rogan 0:58 (laughs)

Lex Fridman 0:58 Redband's favorite restaurant. Check out the first three of the sponsors in the description to get a discount and to support this podcast. I usually do full ad reads here and never ads in the middle, but this time, let's go straight to the conversation with a bit of guitar first.

Lex Fridman 1:17 (electric guitar music)

Lex Fridman 1:54 Do you ponder your mortality? Are you afraid of death?

Joe Rogan 1:58 I, I do think about it sometimes. I mean, it does pop into my head sometimes. Just the fact that, uh... I mean, I'm 53, so if everything goes great, I have less than 50 years left. You know, if everything goes great, like no car accidents, no injuries. Yeah.

Lex Fridman 2:15 But it could happen today. This could be your last day on this Earth.

Joe Rogan 2:18 Could be.

Lex Fridman 2:19 That's kind of a Stoic thing to meditate on death. There's a, there's a bunch of philosophers, Ernest Becker and, uh, Sheldon Solomon, they believe that death is the, at the core of everything. Wrote this book, Warm at the Core. So, does that come into play in the way you see the world?

Joe Rogan 2:37 I think having a sense of urgency is very beneficial. And understanding that your time is limited can aid you greatly. I think, uh, knowing that this is a temporary time, that we, we have finite life spans, I, I, I think there's a, a, there's great power in that because it, it motivates you, it gets you going. I think being an immortal, living forever, would be one of the most depressing things, particularly if everybody else was dying around you. And I think one of the things that makes life so interesting and fascinating is that it doesn't last, you know, that you, you really get a brief amount of time here. And really by the time you're just starting to kind of figure yourself out, who you are and how not to screw things up so bad, like, time's up. (laughs)

Lex Fridman 3:23 The ride's over.

Lex Fridman 3:24 What about from your, like, from your daughter's perspective, do you, do you, uh, think about the world we're in now and what kind of world you're gonna leave them?

Joe Rogan 3:35 I do.

Lex Fridman 3:35 And do you worry about it?

Joe Rogan 3:37 I do. Yeah, I do. I do when I see these, uh, protests and riots and chaos and so much, (sighs) so much, uh, anger in the world today. And then particularly today, I think, because of the, the pandemic and the fact that so many folks are out of work and through no fault of their own and can't make ends meet and just people feel so helpless and angry, it's, uh, a particularly divisive time. It's a particularly turmoil-filled time. And, uh, it just doesn't seem like the world of a year ago even. It feels very chaotic and dangerous. And this, and it's a small thing, like in terms of the, like the possibilities of things that could happen to the world, like a pandemic like the one we've experienced that really just doubles the amount of deaths on a bad flu year. So it, relatively speaking, is a small thing comparison to super volcano eruptions, asteroid impact, uh, a real horrific pandemic or one that, you know, really wipes out millions and millions of people. It's, um, it's stunning how fragile civility is. It's stunning how fragile our, uh, our, our society really is that something like this can come along, some unprecedented thing, unprecedented thing can come along and all of a sudden everybody's out of work for six months and then everybody's at each other's throats. And then politically everyone's at each other's throats and, and then with the advent of social media and, uh, the images that you can see, you know, the videos of police abuse and just racial tensions are at an all-time high to a point where like if you asked me just five or six years ago like, uh, are, have racial problems in this country largely been alleviated? I'd probably say, "Yeah, it's way better than it's ever been before." But now you could argue that it's not. Now you could argue it's no, it's way worse in, in just a small amount of time. It's way worse than it's ever been during my lifetime. You co- while, my, while I'm aware of it, you know, obviously when I was a, a young boy in the '60s, they were still going through the civil rights movement, but now, uh, it just seems very fever pitched. And I think a lot of that is because of the pandemic and is because of all the, the heightened, uh, just tension. The way... What I liken it to is...... um, pe- road rage. 'Cause, you know, people have road rage not just because they're in their car and no one can get to them, but also because you're at a heightened state because you're driving fast and you know you're driving fast. You know you have to make split-second movements. And so anybody doing something, you're like, "What the f-" People go crazy because they're, they're already at an eight because they're in their car and they're moving very quickly. That's what it feels like with today, with the pandemic. It feels like everybody is already at an eight, so anything that comes along, it's like, "Light it all on fire!" You know, "Burn it down!" Like, that's part of what I think is part of the reason for s- a lot of the looting and the riots and all the chaos. It's not just the people out of work, but it's also that everyone feels so tense already and everyone feels so helpless. And it's like, you know, doing something like that makes people, uh, it just... It gives people a, a, a whole new motivation for chaos, a whole new motivation for, for doing destructive things that I'm, I've never experienced in my life.

Lex Fridman 7:07 On your better

Lex Fridman 7:08 days when you see a positive future, what, what do you think is the way out of this, uh, chaos of 2020? Like, if you visualize a 2025 that's a better world than today, what does that... How do we get there and what does that look like?

Joe Rogan 7:22 That's a good question. (sighs) I d- I, I can s- sc- honestly say I don't know, and, uh, I wouldn't have said I don't know a year ago. A year ago, I would've said, "We're gonna be okay. As much as people hate Trump, the epon- economy's doing great. I think we're gonna be fine." That's not how I feel today. Today, uh, I don't think there's a, a clear solution politically 'cause I think if Trump wins, people are gonna be furious, and I think if Biden wins, people are gonna be furious. Um, particularly, like, if things get more woke. You know, if people, uh, continue to enforce this, uh, forced compliance and, and make people behave a certain way and act a certain way, which seems to be a part of what this whole woke thing is that... Is... The most disturbing for me is that I, I see what's going on. I see there's a lot of losers that have hopped on this and they, they shove it in people's faces and it doesn't have to make sense. Like, there was a Black Lives Matter protest that stopped this woman at a restaurant. Uh, they were, uh, surrounding her outside a restaurant and they were forcing her to raise her fist in compliance. This is a woman who's marched for black lives multiple times, b- Black Lives Matter multiple times, and the people all around her doing this were all white.

Lex Fridman 8:35 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 8:36 It's all, it's all weird. My friend Coach T, he's a, a wrestling coach who's also, uh, on a podcast, my friend Brian Moses, hi- his take on it is that black... And he's a Black guy, and he says, "Black Lives Matter is a white cult." (laughs)

Lex Fridman 8:47 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 8:47 And I'm like, when you see that picture, it's hard to argue that he's got a point. I mean, it's clearly not all about that, but there's a lot of people that have jumped onboard that are very much like cult members. Because the thing about Black Lives Matter or any movement is you can't control who joins. There's no entrance, uh, examination, so you don't go, "Okay, how do you feel about this? What's your perceptions on that?" Like, what are you... How... You know, like the, the man who shot the Trump supporter in Portland, you know that guy who, uh, murdered the Trump supporter-

Lex Fridman 9:20 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 9:20 ... then the cop shot him? That guy was walking around with his hand on his gun looking for Trump supporters.

Lex Fridman 9:27 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 9:27 Just wa- I mean, he's a, uh, known violent guy who was walking around looking for Trump supporters, found one and shot one. That has nothing to do with Black Lives Matter. He's a white guy, he shot another white guy. It's just, it's just madness, you know? And th- that kind of madness is, uh, it's disturbing to see it ramp up so quickly. I mean, there's been, there's been riots in Portland every night... Oh, excuse me, demonstrations, for 101 days now. 101 days in a row of them lighting things on fire, breaking into federal buildings. It's like, uh, whoever saw that coming? Nobody saw that coming. So I don't know what the solution is and I don't know what it looks in five years. So 2025, to answer your question, like, it could be anything. I mean, we, we could be looking at Mad Max. We could be looking at the, the apocalypse. We could, we could also be looking at an invasion from another country. We could be looking at a war, like a real hot war.

Lex Fridman 10:25 To put a little bit of responsibility on you, like, for me, I've listened to you since the red band Olive Garden days, that's f- the very beginning, and, uh, there was something in the way you communicated about the world, maybe there was others but you were the one I was aware of, is you were open-minded and, uh, like, loving towards the world, especially as the podcast developed. Like, you just demonstrated and lived this kind of, just, kindness or maybe even, like, lack of jealousy. In your own little profession of comedy, it's, it was clear that you didn't... You, you didn't succumb to the weaker aspects of human nature and thereby inspire, like, people like me, who I was... I was naturally, pro- probably especially in like the 20s, uh, early 20s, kind of jealous on the success of others and you're really the primary person that taught me to, um, truly celebrate the success of others. And so (laughs) by way of question, you kinda have a role in this, of making a better 2025. You have such a big megaphone. Is there something you think you can do on this podcast with the words, the way you talk, the, the things you discuss, that could create a better 2025?

Joe Rogan 11:39 I think if anything I could help in leading by example, but, uh, you know, that's only gonna help the people that are listening. I don't know, uh, what else I can do in terms of, like, make the world a better place other than express my hopes and wishes for that and just try to be as nice as I can to people-

Lex Fridman 12:02 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 12:02 ... as, as often as I can. But I also think that I've fallen into this weird category, particularly with the Spotify deal...... where, um, you know, I'm one of them now. I'm not a regular person anymore. Now I'm, like, some famous rich guy.

Lex Fridman 12:18 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 12:18 So you go from being a regular person to a famous rich guy that's out of touch, you know, and, uh, that- that's a real issue whenever you're talking about the economy, about just real-life problems.

Lex Fridman 12:31 It's- i- it's interesting, it kind of hurts my heart to hear people say about Elon Musk, "He's just a billionaire."

Joe Rogan 12:35 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 12:36 It's an interesting statement. But I think if you just continue being you and he continued being him, people- peop- I think people are just voicing their worry that you've become some rich guy.

Joe Rogan 12:49 I don't even know if they're doing that. I think they're just finding w- the way he describes it, an attack vector.

Lex Fridman 12:56 Right.

Joe Rogan 12:56 Yeah, and I think he's right. I think they just, uh, they can dismiss you by just saying, "Oh, you're- you're just a that." You know, you're a, you know, you're easily, um, definable.

Lex Fridman 13:08 Right. But there- I mean, there's truth to that. Y- you- i- if you're not careful, you can become out of touch.

Joe Rogan 13:13 (sighs)

Lex Fridman 13:14 But you- that- that's an interesting thing, like, how- why haven't you become out of touch? Like, as a human off the podcast, you s- you don't act like a- like you- you talk to somebody like me. You don't talk like a famous person or you- you don't- you don't act rich.

Joe Rogan 13:31 (laughs)

Lex Fridman 13:32 Like you're better than others. There's a certain- listen, I've talked to quite a few- you have too, but I've talked to a specially kind of group of people that are, like, Nobel Prize winners, let's say.

Joe Rogan 13:42 Mm-hmm.

Lex Fridman 13:43 They have- sometimes have an air to them that's-

Joe Rogan 13:46 An arrogance, yeah.

Lex Fridman 13:47 ... of arrogance.

Joe Rogan 13:47 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 13:47 And you don't. What- what's that about?

Joe Rogan 13:49 Well, you gotta know what that is, right? Like, um, that air of arrogance comes from d- drinking y- your own Kool-Aid. You- you start believing that somehow or another just because you're getting praise from all these people that you really are something different. Usually it- it exemplifies- there's- there's something there, there's- where there's a lack of struggle, you know? And I think, uh, struggle is probably one of the most important balancing tools that a person can have. And for me, um, I struggle mentally and I struggle physically. I struggle mentally in that I- like we were talking about on the podcast we did previously, you and I on my podcast, that I'm not a fan of my work. I'm not a fan of what I do. I'm a- I'm my harshest critic.

Lex Fridman 14:40 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 14:41 So any time anybody says something bad about me, I'm like, "Pfft, listen, I've said way worse about myself." I, you know, I don't like anything I do. I'm ruthlessly introspective, and I will continue to be that way because that's the only way you can be good as a comedian. There's no other way. You can't just think you're awesome and just go out there. You have to- you have to be, like, picking apart everything you do. But there's a balance to that too, because you have to have enough confidence to go out there and perform.

Lex Fridman 15:06 And do it, yeah.

Joe Rogan 15:06 You can't think, "Oh my god, I suck." I go, "I know what I'm doing, but I know what I'm doing because I put in all that work." And one of the reasons why I put in all that work is I don't like the- I don't like the end result most of the time, so I need to work at it all the time. And then there's physical struggle, which I think balances everything out. Without physical struggle, I- I've- I always make the analogy that the body is, in a lot of ways, like a battery, where if you have extra charge, it's like it leaks out of the top and it bec- becomes unmanageable and messy, and that's how my psyche is. If- if I- if I have too much energy, if I'm not- if I'm not exerting myself in a violent way, like an explosive way, like wearing myself out, I just don't like the way the world is. I don't like the way I interface with the world. I'm too tense. I'm- I'm- I'm- I'm too quick to be upset about things, I'm t- But when I work out hard and I, you know, I put in a- a brutal training session, everything's fine.

Lex Fridman 16:07 Well, eh, the first time I talked to you on GRV, uh, you were doing Octo- um...

Joe Rogan 16:13 Sober October.

Lex Fridman 16:14 ... Sober October, and there was something in your eyes, um, like I think you've talked about that you- y- you know, you exorcize the demons out essentially, so you exorcize to get whatever, the parts of you that you don't like, out. Uh, there was a dark (laughs) there was a darkness in you there, like the f- (laughs) the competitiveness and the focus of that person.

Joe Rogan 16:34 That was a scary time in a lot of ways, that Sober October thing, 'cause, uh, m- my friends, we were all talking shit, right? 'Cause we were competing against each other in these fitness challenges, and you had, uh, one point per- like you got a certain amount of points per each minute that you went at 80% of your max heart rate. And one day, I got 1,100 points, so I did seven hours on an elliptical machine watching the bathhouse scene from John Wick where he murders all those people in the bathhouse. I watched it probably 50 times in a row. (laughs)

Lex Fridman 17:07 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 17:07 I went crazy. I went crazy, but I went crazy in a- a weird way where it- it brought me back to my, um, my fighting days. It was like the same- that person came out again. It was like, "Oh, I didn't even know he was in there." It's like they're- like- like- like an assassin, like a killer. Like I felt- I felt like- I felt like a- like a different person.

Lex Fridman 17:31 Is it echoes of, like, what Mike Tyson talked about essentially, like the-

Joe Rogan 17:35 Maybe, but no orgasmic-

Lex Fridman 17:36 No (laughs)

Joe Rogan 17:37 ... notions. (laughs) All the crazy shit that he was saying.

Lex Fridman 17:40 But is- is there-

Joe Rogan 17:41 Oh my god.

Lex Fridman 17:41 ... is there that vi- is there a violent person in there?

Joe Rogan 17:44 Oh, yeah. Yeah, there's a- a lot of- there's a lot of violence in me for sure. I don't know if it's genetic or learned or... It's because during my formative years from the time I was 15 till I was 22, all I did was fight. That was all I did. That was all I did. All I did was train and compete. That's all I did. That was my whole life.

Lex Fridman 18:03 Is it connected to, um... so you, uh, your- your mom and dad broke up early on. Is it connected to the dad at all?

Joe Rogan 18:10 I- I'm- I'm sure it's connected to him also be- 'cause he was violent and it made me feel very scared to be around him, but I also think, um, it's connected in who he was as a human is transferred into my DNA. You know, I think there's a- a certain amount of- I mean, i-... I mean, to be prejudiced against myself, I look like a violent person. You know, if I didn't know me, I'm just ... Even the way I'm built, not even just the working out part, just the size of my hands and, (inhales deeply) like, there's the- the width of my shoulders. Like, there's, uh, most likely a lot of violence in my history, in my past, in my ancestry. And I think, um, I- I think we minimize that with people. Like, so much of your behavior ... Like, I ... When I see my daughter ... I have a- a ... one daughter that's obsessive in terms of, like, she wants to get really good at things. Like ...

Lex Fridman 19:01 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 19:01 ... and she, and she'll practice things all day long and, and it's, uh, 100% my personality. Like, she's me in female form.

Lex Fridman 19:09 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 19:09 But without the anger as much and without the, um, fear. Like, she has, you know, a loving household and everything like that. But she has this intense obsession-

Lex Fridman 19:20 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 19:20 ... with doing things and doing things really well, and getting better, uh, with- to the point where you have to tell her to stop. Like, "Stop doing handsprings in the house. Stop. Stop. Come on. Just sit down. Have dinner." Like, "One more, one more." Like, she's just like ... She's like ...

Lex Fridman 19:31 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 19:31 She's psycho.

Lex Fridman 19:32 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 19:33 Um, and I think there's a lot of behavior (inhales deeply) and personality and, uh, a lot of these things are passed down through genetics. We don't really know, right? We don't know how much of w- who you are genetically is bec- learned behavior, you know, nature or nurture. We don't know if it's learned behavior or whether or not it's something that's intrinsically a part of you because of, you know, who your parents were. I think there's f- ... There's c- certainly some genetic violence in me. There's cert-

Lex Fridman 20:06 And so you channeled it.

Joe Rogan 20:08 Yeah, I channeled it.

Lex Fridman 20:08 You figured out is basically your life is a productive exploration of how to channel that.

Joe Rogan 20:13 Yes. Try ... How to figure out how to get- get that monkey to sit down and calm down. There's another person in there.

Lex Fridman 20:21 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 20:21 Like, there's a ... There's a calm, rational, kind, friendly person who just wants to laugh and have fun. And then there's that dude who comes out when I did Sober October.

Lex Fridman 20:32 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 20:32 That guy is scary. I don't like that guy.

Lex Fridman 20:34 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 20:34 That guy just wants to get up in the morning and go. You know, it's like ... It's, um ... I mean, when I was competing, it was necessary. But it makes me r- remember. I didn't really remember what a- ... what I used to be like until that. It's like, uh, you know, when I'm working out seven hours a day.

Lex Fridman 20:51 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 20:51 And, and just so obsessed, and, and all I was thinking about was winning. That's all I was thinking about. Like, if they were ... if they were working out five hours a day, I wanted, I wanted them to know that I was gonna work out an extra three hours, and I was gonna get up early and I was gonna text them all, "Hey, pussies."

Lex Fridman 21:06 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 21:06 "I'm up already taking pictures and selfies."

Lex Fridman 21:09 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 21:09 You know? (laughs) I was like, "You're gonna die." Or I kept telling them, "You're all gonna die."

Lex Fridman 21:13 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 21:13 "If you try to keep up with me, you're gonna die."

Lex Fridman 21:14 You weren't fully joking.

Joe Rogan 21:16 No, I wasn't joking at all.

Lex Fridman 21:18 Yeah. Yeah-

Joe Rogan 21:18 That's why I was fucked up about it. (laughs)

Lex Fridman 21:19 This is the scary thing when I interacted with Goggins, and what I saw in you o- on ... uh, during that time is, like, this guy, like ... Like, this is why I've been avoiding David Goggins recently.

Joe Rogan 21:31 (laughs)

Lex Fridman 21:33 (laughs) Is like ... 'Cause he wants to meet. He wants to do ... Like, talk on this podcast, but he also wants to run a m- ultra-marathon with me.

Joe Rogan 21:39 Mm-hmm.

Lex Fridman 21:39 And I felt like this is a person if I spend any time in this realm ... If I spend any time with the Joe Rogan of that Sober October, like, I might have to die to get out. Like, there's this kind of, um-

Joe Rogan 21:52 Yeah, there's a competitive aspect that's super unhealthy. I mean, you saw the video that we watched earlier today of Goggins draining his knee. That would stop me from running ever again, because I would think in my head, "Okay, I'm gonna ruin my cartilage. I'm gonna need a knee replacement." I would start thinking ... I would g- go down that line. But he is perpetually in this push-it mindset, you know, the ... What he cal- calls the dog in him. You know, he's got ... That dog is in him all day long and he feeds that dog, you know? And that's, um ... That's who he is, and that's one of the reasons why he's so inspirational and he's fuel for millions and millions of people.

Lex Fridman 22:27 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 22:27 I mean, he really is. He motivates people in a way that is, uh, it's so powerful. But it can be very destructive. I just ... I know- I know now, especially after the Sober October thing, that that thing is still in me. You know, I didn't know, 'cause I really haven't done anything physically competitive. Except one time I was supposed to fight Wesley Snipes.

Lex Fridman 22:47 (laughs) Yeah.

Joe Rogan 22:48 It came out then too. That came out too. That- that got creepy too. But luckily, that never happened. But that was many months of training, like training twice a day every day. Kickboxing in the morning, jujitsu at night. I was just going and going and going and going, and I was just thinking just all day long. And it ... But it- but it fucks with all the other aspects of your life.

Lex Fridman 23:09 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 23:09 Fucks with your friendships, it fucks with your- your ... It fucks with my comedy, it fucks with everything, because that mindset is not a mindset of an artist. It's a mindset of a conqueror.

Lex Fridman 23:20 A conqueror.

Joe Rogan 23:21 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 23:21 Yeah. A destroyer.

Lex Fridman 23:22 That's why it's so interesting to see Mike Tyson s- make the switch.

Joe Rogan 23:25 (exhales)

Lex Fridman 23:25 It's clear that, like, whatever that is, however that fight goes, he made a s- ... There's a switch of a diff- ... He stepped into a different dimension. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 23:32 Roy Jones Jr.'s coming on my podcast soon, and, uh, you know, Roy's gonna be on, uh, before the fight. I'm- I'm ju- ... I'm so curious to see how it goes down, but genuinely concerned, 'cause Mike Tyson is a heavyweight, and Roy Jones at his best was 168 pounds, and um-

Lex Fridman 23:50 But I don't know if Roy has that room in his house, mental house of where Mike Tyson goes. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 23:57 I don't know. I don't know if he has that room. Mike's- Mike doesn't have a room. He's- he's got an empire in there.

Lex Fridman 24:01 (laughs) With his- with his tigers.

Joe Rogan 24:01 He opens up the door. (laughs) He's- he opens up the door, there's- there's a whole empire in his head, and he's- he's in that firmly. You know, when he got out of the weed and- and- and started training again, (inhales deeply) like you could see it in him ... And by the way, physically, in- in person, he looks spectacular. He looks like a fucking Adonis. I mean, he looks ready to go.

Lex Fridman 24:21 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 24:22 It's crazy.

Lex Fridman 24:23 Yeah. I watched videos of him. What about

Lex Fridman 24:25 you, uh ... Have you ever considered competing in jujitsu?

Joe Rogan 24:28 No, for that very reason. I don't want to get obsessed.... that's my, my number one concern. I had to quit video games.

Lex Fridman 24:35 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 24:35 When we were playing video games at the studio, I had to quit because I was playing five hours a day, like out of nowhere. All of a sudden, I was playing five hours a day. I was coming home late for dinner.

Lex Fridman 24:43 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 24:43 I was e- ending podcasts early and jumping on the video games and playing. I get obsessed with things and I have to recognize what that is. And these competitive things, like competitive... especially like really exciting competitive things like video games, they're very dangerous for me. The ultimate competitive video game is like jujitsu. And, um, if I was young, I most certainly would have done it. If I didn't have like a very clear career path, it was something that I enjoyed, my concern would be that I would become a professional jujitsu fighter-

Lex Fridman 25:13 Right.

Joe Rogan 25:13 ... when I was young. And then I would not have the energy to do standup and do all the other things that I wound up doing as a career. When I was, um, 21, I quit my job teaching. I was teaching at Boston University. I was teaching Taekwondo there. And I, I knew... and I also had my own school in Revere. I knew I couldn't do it right and also be doing standup comedy. I knew I couldn't do both of those things.

Lex Fridman 25:40 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 25:40 There was no way.

Lex Fridman 25:41 You have to be cognizant of, uh, that obsessive force within you to make sure, uh-

Joe Rogan 25:45 Yes. I, I'd have to know how to manage my mental illness.

Lex Fridman 25:49 Right.

Joe Rogan 25:49 That's, that's a very particular mental illness. And I think that mental illness... again, my formative years, from 15 till I was, you know, 21-ish, 22, those, those years were spent constantly obsessed with martial arts. That was my whole day. I mean, I trained almost every day. The only time I would not train is if I was either injured or, uh, if I was exhausted, if I needed a day off. But I was obsessed. And so that part of my personality that I haven't nurtured is always gonna be there under the surface. And when you... it gets reignited by something, it's very weird. It's a weird feeling. And it can get reignited with a video game. It can get reignited with an- anything. That, that obsessive, that... you know, whatever it is. That competitive demon.

Lex Fridman 26:38 Yeah. The way you talk about guitar, I know you would love... fall in love with playing guitar, but I think you're very wise to not touch that thing.

Joe Rogan 26:44 That's why I won't golf. I have friends who wanna golf.

Lex Fridman 26:47 Th-

Joe Rogan 26:47 I'm like, "Mm-mm. I ain't fucking with

Joe Rogan 26:49 that thing."

Lex Fridman 26:49 So a lot of people ask me abo- uh, like what's, uh, Joe Rogan's jujitsu game like? Like, like, like assuming that I, I somehow spend, uh, hours rolling with you before and after (laughs) we train.

Joe Rogan 27:02 Mm-hmm.

Lex Fridman 27:02 I mean, what's a good, uh... we... you should, at some point, show a technique or something. That'll be fun.

Joe Rogan 27:07 Sure. I mean, I've got-

Lex Fridman 27:08 What's your game like? What's your A ga-

Joe Rogan 27:10 ... these techniques online.

Lex Fridman 27:10 Oh, there... I saw, I saw you doing a, uh, I think head and arm, uh, something online? That was a fun video.

Joe Rogan 27:15 Yeah. I did a... that was... I fucked my neck up doing head and arm chokes. I did them so much that I, I... you know, because you use your neck so much with head and arm chokes.

Lex Fridman 27:24 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 27:24 I developed like a real kink in my neck, and, uh, it turned out I had a bulging disc.

Lex Fridman 27:29 Wow.

Joe Rogan 27:30 And, uh, you know.

Lex Fridman 27:31 So you do it on that, just one side? On-

Joe Rogan 27:33 Well, it was, uh... no, I could do it on the left side, but I definitely am better on the right side. The right side was my best side.

Lex Fridman 27:39 What's... so if you were to compete, let's say, like what's your A game? What would you go... from standing up, how would you go to submission? Would you pull guard? Would you take down? What... how would you pa- uh, pass guard? What's-

Joe Rogan 27:51 I don't have good take downs. I'm not... I was not a good wrestler. So I would most likely either pull guard or I would pull half guard.

Lex Fridman 27:59 Do you have a good guard?

Joe Rogan 28:00 Yes.

Lex Fridman 28:00 Are, are you comfortable being on your-

Joe Rogan 28:01 Yes.

Lex Fridman 28:02 ... on your butt and your back?

Joe Rogan 28:02 Yes. I've... I'm very flexible, so I have good... my rubber guard is pretty-

Lex Fridman 28:07 You got a rubber guard?

Joe Rogan 28:07 ... pretty good. Yeah. Yeah. I have good arm bars and good triangles off my back but, um, I also have a very good half guard. But my top game is my best. I've... I have a very strong top game

Narrator 28:18 That's true.

Lex Fridman 28:18 Do you have a half guard? Do you have, do you have a preference of like what kind of guard and how to pass that guard and... uh, like yeah. Like is there a specific game plan? Like you... do you-

Joe Rogan 28:29 Double underhooks from half guard is the game plan for me. If I can get double underhooks from half guard, I could sweep a lot of people.

Lex Fridman 28:36 Uh, underhooks of what? Sorry. The arms or the legs?

Joe Rogan 28:39 So half guard, lock down, right?

Lex Fridman 28:41 Lock down. Got it.

Joe Rogan 28:41 Half guard, go into lock down, double underhooks.

Lex Fridman 28:44 Got it.

Joe Rogan 28:44 Clinch to the body. Suck the body in tight.

Lex Fridman 28:46 Just pressure?

Joe Rogan 28:47 And... yeah. Massive pressure. And then inch my way into a position... we call it the dog fight.

Lex Fridman 28:52 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 28:53 Inch my way into a position where I could, uh, well, get the person on their back.

Lex Fridman 28:56 Yeah. That's what... 'cause you did show me... I still disagree with you about the tie thing. Um-

Joe Rogan 29:01 The tie thing?

Lex Fridman 29:01 That you can choke somebody-

Joe Rogan 29:02 Oh, ties off? (laughs)

Lex Fridman 29:03 ... with a tie. It's so wrong. So wrong. Uh.

Joe Rogan 29:05 Well, it's not wrong with you. With you, it's wrong 'cause you, you'll, you'll go 10-

Lex Fridman 29:08 No. I think there's a system where I, I, I've, I've hav- I have this thing with Danaher. We're gonna figure it out. Okay. But the-

Joe Rogan 29:14 Just have a little Velcro in the back-

Lex Fridman 29:16 No.

Joe Rogan 29:16 ... so it cross.

Lex Fridman 29:16 But see, that's... you're just not the guy.

Joe Rogan 29:17 You cheating?

Lex Fridman 29:18 You're not the... you're... yeah, exactly. That's cheating.

Joe Rogan 29:21 (laughs)

Lex Fridman 29:21 Uh, yeah. You did... I, I did feel when you showed me, uh... I think you showed me the rubber guard because it's still a guard-

Joe Rogan 29:26 Yeah. Yeah.

Lex Fridman 29:27 ... that's a little bit foreign to me. I just felt that you can immediately feel... not with the rubber guard, just by the way you moved your body, is you're, um, uh, like a Xianji type of guy who knows how to control another human being. So like some people are a little bit more I would say agile and techni- like, uh, playful and kind of-

Joe Rogan 29:47 Loose.

Lex Fridman 29:47 ... m- uh, yeah, loose and tra-

Joe Rogan 29:48 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 29:49 Uh, they work on transition, transition, transition. You're a control guy. Like you know how to control position and advance position. Danaher is the same way. He's all about control.

Joe Rogan 29:58 My, my game is smoosh.

Lex Fridman 30:00 Smoosh.

Joe Rogan 30:00 That's my game. Smoosh you. Grab ahold of you. Once I have you, why would I let you go?

Lex Fridman 30:04 Right.

Joe Rogan 30:05 That's... my thought is like, "Why would I let you go?" I just wanna incrementally move to a better position until I can strangle you.

Lex Fridman 30:11 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 30:11 But I'm much more into strangling people than anything else. L-

Lex Fridman 30:15 Yeah. Which is a great MMA, uh-

Joe Rogan 30:17 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 30:17 ... uh, approach for, uh, jujitsu. Like-

Joe Rogan 30:20 Well, too many people don't tap when you get their arms. You know? And I'm... it's not that I'm not opposed to arm bars. I love arm bars. But everybody goes to sleep.

Lex Fridman 30:29 Yep. And, and quite from-... pressure too.

Joe Rogan 30:33 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 30:33 I mean, quit mentally-

Joe Rogan 30:34 Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Lex Fridman 30:35 ... maybe. There's nothing like-

Joe Rogan 30:36 You can't breathe. You know, if you got a guy who's like a really good top game guy, and he mounts you. And I'm a big fan of mounting with my legs crossed.

Lex Fridman 30:44 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 30:44 You know, like a guard, like a top guard. And so I, I can squeeze with both legs.

Lex Fridman 30:50 Just...

Joe Rogan 30:51 Smush. And I'm just, I'm just looking for people to make mistakes and slowly, incrementally bettering my position until I can get something locked up.

Lex Fridman 30:59 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 31:00 I love jujitsu though, man. I just wish it didn't injure you.

Lex Fridman 31:02 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 31:03 You know? Jujitsu is like... If, if your joints were more durable, they could figure out a way to make joints more durable. God, I could do jujitsu forever.

Lex Fridman 31:10 Yeah. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 31:10 So much fun.

Lex Fridman 31:12 I, I actually... I talked to this, uh, roboticist, Russ Tedrake. He builds, um... He's one of the world-class people that builds humanoid robots. You're interested in Boston Dynamics.

Joe Rogan 31:20 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 31:20 He's one of the key people in that kind of robotics. So I asked him the stupidest question of like, "How far are we, we from, um, having a robot be a UFC champion?"

Joe Rogan 31:30 (laughs)

Lex Fridman 31:31 (laughs) And, uh, yeah, it's actually a really, really tough problem. Uh, it's, it's, it's the same thing that, you know, makes somebody like Danielle Cormier like on the wrestling side special, 'cause you have to understand the movement of the human body in ways that's so difficult to teach. It's so, it's so subtle, the timing, the pressure points, and like the leverage, all those kinds of things. That's just for the clinch situation. And then the movement for the striking is very difficult. As long as you're not allowed as a robot to like use your natural abilities of having a lot more power.

Joe Rogan 32:03 Right, a lot more power and then more durable.

Lex Fridman 32:06 Right,

Narrator 32:06 more endurance.

Joe Rogan 32:06 The human body, like especially meniscus, like, like you see the, the heel hook game, like everybody's involved-

Lex Fridman 32:13 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 32:13 ... in leg locks and heel hooks, like all those guys wind up with torched knees. Everyone's got torched knees. Everyone's knees are torn apart. Y- and you don't grow new meniscus. You know, that's like one of those joints where, man, when it goes-

Lex Fridman 32:27 It hurts.

Joe Rogan 32:27 ... it's like... And you know, those guys are 28 years old. They have-

Lex Fridman 32:30 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 32:30 ... blown out knees.

Lex Fridman 32:31 Let me ask the ridiculous question. What do you think-

Joe Rogan 32:33 Okay.

Lex Fridman 32:33 We're talking about cops, but what do you think, uh, is the best martial arts for self-defense?

Joe Rogan 32:38 For sure, jujitsu. Yeah, for sure.

Lex Fridman 32:40 Wrestling?

Joe Rogan 32:41 I, I think grappling, I should say. But judo as well, and especially in a cold climate. If you get someone who's got like a heavy winter jacket on, my God, like judo is an incredible martial art there.

Lex Fridman 32:50 Test concrete.

Joe Rogan 32:53 That's the worst place to be with a heavy winter jacket, with a judo specialist, and you're standing up with them. Oh my God. Um, but I think, um, grappling, because in most self-defense situations, it usually winds up with grappling. You're definitely better off though knowing some striking 'cause there's nothing more terrifying than when you go to take someone down, they actually have takedown skills, but they can fight. And so they have takedown defense, and they know how to fight, and then you don't know how to stand up. Like, the, the worst thing in the world is seeing someone like reaching who doesn't know how to do striking and someone cracks you. I think-

Lex Fridman 33:25 What about all that Krav Maga talk, which is like, you know, the whole line of argument that says that jujitsu and wrestling and all of these sports, they fundamentally take you away from the nature of violence. So they're just teaching you how to play, versus the reality of, of, um, violence that is involved in like a self-defense situation that is, is the... a, a totally different set of skills would be needed.

Joe Rogan 33:52 In general, the people that say that jujitsu or other martial arts don't... They, that it's more of a sport and they don't really understand vio- and vi- uh, they don't really understand violence, in general, the people that say that suck. (laughs)

Lex Fridman 34:07 Yeah. That's-

Joe Rogan 34:08 Anybody who thinks like s- someone's like, "You know, hey man, I'll just bite you." I'm like, "Are you gonna bite me?"

Lex Fridman 34:13 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 34:13 "Okay. You think I'm gonna bite you too? What do you think of that? What if I punch you in your fucking face? You think you're still gonna bite me-"

Lex Fridman 34:19 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 34:19 "... when you can't even see?"

Lex Fridman 34:21 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 34:21 "When you, you're, you, you barely even know you're alive and I choke you unconscious?" If someone's really good at jujitsu, good luck stabbing them with your keys. You know, you, you don't have a chance. You don't have a chance. If someone's much better than you and they trip you and get you on your back, and then they fucking elbow you in your face and get a head and arm choke on you, all that Krav Maga shit's out the window, son. You, you're way better off learning what works on trained killers. Like this whole idea that you're gonna poke someone in the eye and then you're gonna kick him in the nuts and the... Like you're, you're going through these drills that, yeah, it's good to know what to do if you run into someone who doesn't know how to fight. It's way better to know what to do to someone who knows how to fight. That's the best thing. Learn how to fight against people who know how to fight. Like all that practice self-defense, "And they're gonna, he's gonna come at you with a knife. You're going to grab the wrist and do that." Look, it's good to know self-defense, but it's much more important to understand martial arts comprehensively. When you understand martial arts comprehensively, like there's no Krav... Uh, I shouldn't say there's no Krav Maga guys, but it's v-... It would be shocking if a Krav Maga guy and a mixed martial arts guy had a fight, and the mixed martial arts guy who's a, a trained killer all around didn't fuck that guy up. That's, that's what I would expect would happen. I would, I would, I would not think that some guy who has a little bit of this and a little bit of that and prepares for the streets is gonna be able to handle a person who trains with killers on a day-to-day basis, who rolls with jujitsu black belts, who trains with Muay Thai champions. Like you're... It's... The best martial arts are the martial arts that work on martial artists, not the martial arts that work on untrained people.

Lex Fridman 36:06 What about... We're in Texas now. What about guns? So-

Joe Rogan 36:09 Well, that's the best martial art. (laughs)

Lex Fridman 36:10 No, but would you like, uh, in this crazy time, should people carry guns?

Joe Rogan 36:17 It's not a bad idea to have a gun, because if you need a gun, you have a gun. And if you don't need a gun-... if you're a person with self-control, you're not gonna use it. You're not gonna just randomly use it. But you have something to protect you. This is the whole idea of the Second Amendment. The whole idea of the Second Amendment gets distorted by mass shootings or by terrible people who murder people and do terrible things. But it's, that, all those things are real, but they don't take away from the fundamental efficacy of having a firearm and defending your family or defending your life. And there are real live situations where people have had firearms and it's protected them or their loved ones, or they've stopped shooters. They've, there, there's many of these stories. But people don't like those stories because then it, it tends to lead to this gun culture argument as pro-gun culture argument that people find very uncomfortable. It's, it's human beings are messy and we're messy in so many different ways, right? We're messy, uh, emotionally, we're messy, messy physically, but we're also messy in what's good or bad. What's, we want things to be binary. We want things to be right or wrong, you know, one or zero, and they're not. But, but there is crime in the world and there is violence in the world, and you're better off knowing how to fight and you're betting, better off knowing how to defend yourself and you're better off having a gun.

Lex Fridman 37:39 I mean, I, I generally think that guns, I do like the idea that guns, uh, Second Amendment helps protect the First Amendment. There's a kinda sense that makes, puts me at ease knowing that so many people in this country have guns that, uh, I mean, Alex Jones, I just listened to one episode of InfoWars for the first time.

Joe Rogan 38:00 (laughs)

Lex Fridman 38:00 Boy, is he, he reminds me like when I drank some tequila, I felt like I'm going to some dark places today. That's how I feel like listening to him. But y- uh, he talks about, like, that it's, he worries about martial law. So basically government overreach by which happened throughout history. Like, there's, there's something to worry about there, but it's, it puts me at ease knowing that so much of the population has guns that people, government would think twice before, uh, instituting martial law in cities. But I actually was asking al- almost like on the individual level, I maybe shouldn't say this, but I don't yet own a gun. And I felt that if I carry a gun, statistically just for me as a human, knowing my psychology, I feel like I'm more likely to die. Like, I feel like I would put myself in situations that I shouldn't. Like, the way I, I will see the world will change because-

Joe Rogan 38:58 Really?

Lex Fridman 38:58 ... my natural feeling is like when somebody, when I was in Philly and I knew late at night, in West Philly, when some guy looks at you and you can immediately calculate that this is a dangerous human being. There, it starts with a monkey look at first. Like, I'm a bigger monkey than you. And that's where I found, like, for example, I'll do the beta thing of just looking down and turning away and, and just getting out of trouble, like very politely and basically that kind of approach. Because if you have a, in terms of getting out of serious violent situations, like serious something where you could die versus if I had a gun, I feel like I would want to be, that that would be that cowboy monkey thing where I would want to put myself in situations-

Joe Rogan 39:45 Mm-hmm.

Lex Fridman 39:45 ... where I'm a little bit of a savior even over myself and almost create danger which can no longer c- like the escalation of which I can no longer control.

Joe Rogan 39:57 Well, you're talking about taking a gun somewhere versus having a gun in your home.

Lex Fridman 40:00 Yes, yes. I mean, carry on me.

Joe Rogan 40:02 Yeah. That's a different situation and much harder, uh, to get a warrant for or a license for that, you know, control, uh, concealed carry licenses, the, especially in Massachusetts, they don't come easy.

Lex Fridman 40:12 Well, Mass- yeah, that's a whole nother thing. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 40:14 Yeah. Whole nother thing.

Lex Fridman 40:14 You're saying gun in the home makes sense.

Joe Rogan 40:16 Yeah. Gun in the home. Having a gun, having, knowing how to use a gun. Like I know how to use a gun. I've trained m- you know, many hours learning how to shoot a gun at, at tactical places, you know. There's a bunch of videos of me doing it on, uh, Instagram.

Lex Fridman 40:30 Those are awesome. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 40:31 I, I practice and I think it's good to, to understand how to be

Joe Rogan 40:35 accurate.

Lex Fridman 40:36 So I've been a fan of your podcast for a long time. You don't often talk about it 'cause you're always kind of looking forward. But if you look at the old studio that you just left, is there some epic memories that stand out to you that you, like you almost look back, "I can't believe this happened."

Joe Rogan 40:53 Oh, yeah. Almost too many of them to count.

Lex Fridman 40:57 Is there something-

Joe Rogan 40:57 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 40:57 ... that pops into mind that-

Joe Rogan 40:58 All of them. Elon Musk blowing that flamethrower in the middle of the hallway (laughs) . I got a video of that. Have you ever seen the video of it?

Lex Fridman 41:05 Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think you posted on Instagram.

Joe Rogan 41:06 Yeah. I think I did too. Yeah. He's a madman. Um, having Bernie Sanders in there, uh, you know, just, uh, all the fun fight companions we did and all the crazy podcasts with Joey Diaz and Duncan Trussell and the, there were so many, there were so many moments, you know. It's, um, podcasts is a, they're, this is a weird art form and it almost seems like it sounds silly, but it almost seems like something that chose me rather than I chose it. I think of that all the time in some strange way. It's like I'm, I'm, I'm showing up as like a, an antenna and I just plug in and twist, twist on and then I, I take in the thing and I put it together and I, I'm like a passenger of this weird ride.

Lex Fridman 41:49 Yeah. I th- you, you've talked about this before. I really like this idea, uh, of that human beings are just carriers of these ideas.

Joe Rogan 41:57 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 41:57 Like, ideas are the ones who are breeding.

Joe Rogan 41:59 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 41:59 So in a sense, like the idea found you as a useful brain to use to spread itself through the podcasting medium.

Joe Rogan 42:06 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 42:06 Like something th- that's a, on the, but d- g- 'cause when I think about your podcast, I think about Joey Diaz, I think about all those comedians you've had. I mean, I think you've had Joey on, I mean, maybe close to, I don't know, 50 times, 60.

Joe Rogan 42:21 Sure. Probably.

Lex Fridman 42:21 Some, some crazy number. Is there, I mean, he is over the top offensive. Just that's who he is to the core. Is there some sense where...... you, you wondered like whether it's right to have (laughs) the Spotify episode number one with Duncan Trussell (laughs) for five hours?

Joe Rogan 42:45 No.

Lex Fridman 42:45 What, what-

Joe Rogan 42:46 No, I wanted to do it that way. That's why we wore NASA suits and we got high as fuck. It's like, that's the whole idea behind it.

Lex Fridman 42:53 I mean, can you introspect that a little bit? Like can you think, like what is that? 'Cause that's rare. That's, it's such a rare thing to do because the, there, the, you're not supposed to talk to Duncan Trussell with the huge platform that you have for five hours. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 43:08 Why not?

Lex Fridman 43:09 Because Donald Trump w- apparently watches your podcast.

Joe Rogan 43:12 (laughs)

Lex Fridman 43:14 So, (laughs) so just the idea that there's these... I mean, that's what I think about, you know, these CEOs write to me that they listen to the podcast that, that I, that I do. And I have somebody like a David Fravor.

Joe Rogan 43:26 Mm-hmm.

Lex Fridman 43:26 And I was nervous about it. I was nervous to have a conversation. For me, David Fravor is a Duncan Trussell, which is like-

Joe Rogan 43:33 Just because of his, uh, experiences with, uh, UFOs?

Lex Fridman 43:36 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 43:37 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 43:37 Just, even just the way he sees the world, because he is open... I don't know if he's always like this, but he opened himself to the possibility of unconventional ideas.

Joe Rogan 43:45 Mm-hmm.

Lex Fridman 43:46 Most people in the scientific community kinda say, "Well, I don't really wanna believe anything that doesn't have a lot of hard evidence."

Joe Rogan 43:52 Right.

Lex Fridman 43:53 And so that was, to me, like a step. And as the thing somehow, uh, becomes more popular, then it becomes this fear of like, "Well, sh- should I talk to this person or not?" And, I mean, you're an inspiration in saying like, "Do whatever the hell you want."

Joe Rogan 44:08 You have to. Well, first of all, I have what you call fuck-you money. And if you have fuck-you money and you don't say, "Fuck you," what's the point of having the fuck-you money? You're wasting it. Like, you're wasting the position. Like, someone said to me, like, uh, "Why do you, why do you like sports cars so much? Like, how many cars do you have?" I go, "A bunch of cars." So, 'cause if I was a kid and I said, "Hey, if I was that crazy rich famous guy, like, I would wanna have a bunch of cool fucking cars." Like, so I, so I would do that.

Lex Fridman 44:36 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 44:36 Like, 'cause th- not everybody gets to do that. Like, if you're the person that gets to do that, you're kind of supposed to do it. Like, that's if you, if you want to, if that really does speak to you. And, you know, um, we've ta- I've talked to you about this before, but muscle cars, spec- specifically ones from the 1960s and the early '70s, they speak to me in some weird way, man. I could just stare at 'em. Like, I have a '65 Corvette. I walk around it sometimes at night when no one's around.

Lex Fridman 45:02 65 Corv-

Joe Rogan 45:02 I just stare at it.

Lex Fridman 45:02 What's your favorite muscle car? Like, what's your most badass late '60s, it's the perfect car.

Joe Rogan 45:09 Probably that car. Probably that '65 Corvette.

Lex Fridman 45:12 65 Corvette?

Joe Rogan 45:12 Yeah. 'Cause I, I walk around it when no one's around.

Lex Fridman 45:15 I think I've driven a '69 Corvette. Is there a particular year that, um, just-

Joe Rogan 45:19 '65 is, uh, generation two. '69 is generation three. '69 is like the, it's even more curvy. They're both awesome, just awesome in different ways. But, uh, I just love muscle cars for whatever reason. But, um, but the point is, like, I like what I like, and if I can do what I want to do, I should do what I want to do. And it's not hurting anybody. And the thing is, like, I would do the Duncan podcast if no one was listening, right?

Lex Fridman 45:45 Right.

Joe Rogan 45:45 If it was, if we were just starting to do a podcast together and, uh, no one cared and it got like 2,000 views, which we did for years.

Lex Fridman 45:52 Yeah, for a long time, yeah.

Joe Rogan 45:53 I would do it with Duncan, and we would get high and we'd talk crazy shit about aliens and spaceships and, "Maybe, dude, maybe ideas are living life forms and they're inside your head and that's how things get made."

Lex Fridman 46:02 Man. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 46:03 Yeah, man.

Lex Fridman 46:05 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 46:05 I mean, I, I've been, just kind of morphed me and him together in that.

Lex Fridman 46:08 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 46:08 Because the, the l- life form idea, life form idea is mine that I've, I've real- I th- really think about a lot.

Lex Fridman 46:14 I think about it on a technical side, by the way.

Joe Rogan 46:16 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 46:16 Like I, I, when I heard you say that, 'cause I've been thinking of it, I was like, "W- uh, whoa, that's interesting that there's two-"

Joe Rogan 46:21 It might be, they might be alive.

Lex Fridman 46:23 Huh.

Joe Rogan 46:23 Because they, I don't know what the fuck they are, but when someone ha- has an idea for a, you know, whatever, an invention, a toaster, and then they think about this, "All it'd need is like these heating elements and a spring, and then it pops when it's done so I have a timer," and then they build this thing, now all of a sudden it's alive. It's like you manifested it in a physical form. A toaster's not the best example, but a car, a airplane. You're thinking about a thing, like an idea comes into your head. And you can say, "Oh, well, it's just creativity. It's a part of being a person. It's how we invented tools and how, you know, uh, we became better hunters." All those things are true. It's, uh, I'm not, I'm not saying that there's some magic to what I'm saying. But there's also a possibility that we're simplifying something by saying that it's just creativity, that it's just a natural human inclination to invent things. But why? Is it possible that ideas, like creativity... Like, we are the only animal other than a, there's a few species that create things, like bees make beehives and, but it's very, they're very uniform. You know, uh, some animals use tools. You know, like, eh, you know, chimps will use like sticks to get termites and things like that. But there's something about what we do that's, it makes you wonder. 'Cause when you look at this s- just look at this room that we're in. Look at all these electronics. Look at all this crazy shit that human beings have invented and then built upon others' inventions, improved and innovated. These all came out of ideas. Like, the i- the idea, they, it, it germinates in someone's head, it bounces around, they write it down, they share it with others, the other people who have similar ideas or ideas that are complementary, they work together, and they, they, they change the world.

Lex Fridman 48:12 And the new thing in that is the idea is not the people. It's like we think we found the ideas, but it's more like the ideas-

Joe Rogan 48:18 The ideas-

Lex Fridman 48:19 ... find us.

Joe Rogan 48:19 ... find you, yeah. They're-

Lex Fridman 48:20 It's interesting.

Joe Rogan 48:20 ... literally in the, in the air.

Lex Fridman 48:22 Yeah. Uh-huh.

Joe Rogan 48:23 They, they come to you. I always felt like that with bits. Like, when I come up with a bit, that's why, um, I'm, I'm always telling people about the Steven Pressfield book, The War of Art-

Lex Fridman 48:32 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 48:32 ... because he talks about, uh, respecting the muse and the idea that-... your ideas come when you sit down and you do the work or you sit down like a professional and you, you talk to the muse, like, "Come, tell, tell me what to do." Like, if the muse was a real thing, as if a muse was like a, some mystical creature that comes and delivers you ideas. Even if that's not real, that's how it works.

Lex Fridman 48:56 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 48:56 It does work like that. If you do treat it like it's a muse and you treat it with the respect and you, you treat it like a professional, the ideas do come to you.

Lex Fridman 49:05 I never thought about what he's doing is just sitting there waiting for the idea that's trying to breed to find him.

Joe Rogan 49:11 Yeah. There's-

Lex Fridman 49:11 That's, that's a, that's a trippy thing. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 49:13 If you show up-

Lex Fridman 49:14 That's trippy.

Joe Rogan 49:14 If you show up and put in the time and focus your energy on that, the, the ideas, they will arrive. They will arrive. And that's the same with writing comedy. Like, there's been many, many times where I'll come home from The Comedy Store and I just sit down and I start writing and I just, I've, uh, I got nothing, there's nothing there, I'm just writing, it's all bullshit. It's nothing's good, it's just like, "Hmm, huh," and then all of a sudden, bam, there's the idea.

Lex Fridman 49:42 You mean-

Joe Rogan 49:42 And then all of a sudden, I can't stop. And then, you know-

Lex Fridman 49:44 Just goes.

Joe Rogan 49:44 ... a couple hours later and I'm like, "Whoa." And then the next night, I'm on stage and I'm like, "How about that?"

Lex Fridman 49:49 Yeah. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 49:49 Boom! And it gets this big laugh and I'm like, "Holy shit." And I know that came out of the discipline to sit down and call the muse.

Lex Fridman 49:57 I mean, the cool thing is the ideas have found you to, like, "Oh, I'm gonna use this dude. Like-"

Joe Rogan 50:04 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 50:04 "... he, he seems to have a podcast that's popular."

Joe Rogan 50:06 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 50:06 "I'm gonna, I'm gonna breed inside his brain-" (laughs)

Joe Rogan 50:08 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 50:09 "... and spread it to others."

Joe Rogan 50:10 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 50:10 It's, it's the same as... (laughs)

Joe Rogan 50:11 And, or an inventor. You know, "I'm gonna use this guy who's, like, desperately seeking some sort of a, a product to bring to market."

Lex Fridman 50:17 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 50:17 Some guy who wants to invent things, who's thinking about-

Lex Fridman 50:19 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 50:19 ... inventing things all the time. Like, these ideas f- w- they weasel their way into your head. And it seems to me also that you'll ha- you're, the frequency that your mind operates under has to be correct. Because one of the things about creativity seems to be if you think about yourself a lot, if you're really into yourself or your image or, or you're selfish, those ideas are not-

Lex Fridman 50:44 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 50:44 ... they don't find you.

Lex Fridman 50:45 Yeah, it's funny.

Joe Rogan 50:46 Like, the ideas-

Lex Fridman 50:47 It stifles the creative... Yeah, yeah. It's-

Joe Rogan 50:48 Yes.

Lex Fridman 50:49 It stifles the opportunity that the (laughs) idea has for to finding you.

Joe Rogan 50:52 Yes.

Lex Fridman 50:53 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 50:53 Which is one of the reasons why joke thieves, people that steal jokes, are terrible writers. There's never, like, really good writers who are also joke thieves. It's just joke thieves, and then, you know, when they have to write on their own if they get exposed, they become terrible comedians. They be, they, they're of, of a shadow of what they were when they were stealing other people's ideas. Because the thing that would make you steal a person's idea is that ego part, the, the, the, like, the wanting to claim it for yourself, the wanting to be the man. "I'm gonna..." Or, or the woman. You know, you want, "I'm gonna be the person who gets out there and says it and everybody's gonna love me for it." Like, you can't think like that and be creative. It requires a humility and it requires a detachment from self in order to create. Like, when I'm writing, I'm blank. I'm like, I'm just staring. I'm like, um, uh, I'm just, uh, the part of my mind that's active is not like me. It's like this weird core function part where I'm not, I'm not aware of, uh, uh, my personality, I'm not aware, I'm not, I'm not aware of any of it.

Lex Fridman 51:55 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 51:56 I'm just trying to put it together in a way that I know works.

Lex Fridman 52:00 Yeah, just being there, being present.

Joe Rogan 52:01 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 52:01 That's the Crissfield is just b- I'm a big believer just sitting there-

Joe Rogan 52:04 You have-

Lex Fridman 52:05 ... even staring at a blank page-

Joe Rogan 52:06 You have to.

Lex Fridman 52:07 ... just putting in the time.

Joe Rogan 52:08 Yeah. And sometimes it's not that way. Sometimes it's an inspiration. Like, sometimes I'll be sitting there at dinner and I'll be like, "I got, I'll be right, I got, I got an idea." And I'll, my wife is really cool about that. I'm like, "I have an idea," and I, I go, "Blah blah blah." I have to just run out of the room real quick and then I write it down on my phone and then I can come back, you know, because those are, those are like little gifts that you get sometimes from the universe out of nowhere. And some people rely only on those gifts, you know? And I've talked to comics about it. They're like, "Oh, I get, I come up with my best ideas when I don't write." And I'm like, "No, I do too. I come up with great ideas when I don't write, but I also write." Like, you can do both of those things. They're not mutually exclusive.

Lex Fridman 52:44 You mentioned fuck you money. I, I feel like I have fuck you money now. A year ago, I was at zero. I have fuck you money now because probably my standards, my, I don't need, I don't need much in this world. But because also, probably because of you, uh, but it's 300 to 400,000 people listen to every episode I do. And it-

Joe Rogan 53:04 That's a lot.

Lex Fridman 53:05 And that resu- it's weird. It's, it's definitely-

Joe Rogan 53:07 That's a successful television show on cable.

Lex Fridman 53:09 Yeah, it's crazy.

Joe Rogan 53:10 (laughs) And it's all you.

Lex Fridman 53:11 It's, yeah, it's hilarious.

Joe Rogan 53:12 That's amazing.

Lex Fridman 53:13 But at this point, that also resulted in FU money in a sense that I don't, um, you know, I don't need anything else in this world. But so by way of asking, I've looked up, uh, you've inspired me for a long time. Do you have advice? You've done this th- on the podcast side of life. Do you have advice for somebody like, for me and somebody like me s- going on this journey? Eric Weinstein is going on this journey. Um, is there advice, both small and big, that you have for somebody like me?

Joe Rogan 53:50 The advice is to keep doing what feels right to you and do what you're doing. Obviously it's resonating with people if you're getting that big of an audience. And I've listened to your podcast, you're very good at it. So, just keep doing it the way you're doing it. Um, don't let anybody else get involved.

Lex Fridman 54:06 What about, um, you've connected, I think you met Jamie at The Comedy Store.

Joe Rogan 54:11 I met him at The Icehouse.

Lex Fridman 54:12 At The Icehouse?

Joe Rogan 54:13 Icehouse. Well, I think I met him at The Comedy Store, but then, uh, we talked at The Icehouse.

Lex Fridman 54:17 I mean, what-

Joe Rogan 54:17 You'd have to ask him.

Lex Fridman 54:18 Yeah, did you think deeply about... 'Cause like, you know, you basically have nobody on your team and, and so it almost feels like a marriage where d- is it, were you selective about, like, a J- too, somebody to bring into your little circle?

Joe Rogan 54:34 Well, Jamie's exceptional.

Lex Fridman 54:35 He is. He tru- he's a m- (laughs) he's a special... I mean, he might have grown... I don't remember how he was in the early days, maybe you could say, but he's grown into something special.

Joe Rogan 54:42 He was def- he's definitely better at it, but he, right away, he's exceptional. He's, uh, got very little ego.

Lex Fridman 54:48 Yes.

Joe Rogan 54:48 He's, he's not a guy who needs a lot of attention. He's not a guy who, um, uh, overestimates...... uh, anything like in terms of like negative or positive. Like his, uh, like his, uh, interpretation of whether it's, uh, good things that happen to the show or bad things that happen in the show, he just takes it all like flat. He's chill. He's just cool as fuck, and he's so smart, (clears throat) and he's so good as an audio engineer and as a podcast producer. He's the best.

Lex Fridman 55:19 But he's basically one of the only people on your- on this whole team, so...

Joe Rogan 55:23 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 55:23 How do you find, I mean, when you let people in... (sighs) I mean, I'm sure other people wanted to get involved. Like why don't you have a co-host that could... you basically kind of, well-

Joe Rogan 55:34 You, well, here's the problem with a co-host. Like when you and I are talking, when we're talking, I'm tuned into you and I'm waiting to hear what you're saying, and I'm listening and I'm interpreting it, and then I'm calculating whether or not I have anything to say, whether to let you keep talking, whe- whether I maybe have a question that lets you expand further, or whether I have a, a disagreement or like there's a dance that's going on. Now when there's another person there (Lex claps hands) chiming in too, it fucks the dance up. It's like dancing, like if you're doing an, uh, a dance with someone, you know, like if you're slow dancing with someone and then a third person's there stepping on-

Lex Fridman 56:13 It's gonna be weird.

Joe Rogan 56:14 ... everybody's feet. Sometimes it's fun.

Lex Fridman 56:16 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 56:16 Sometimes having a third person is fun. Comedy podcasts, sometimes it's fun. Um-

Lex Fridman 56:20 Debate-

Joe Rogan 56:20 ... fight companions.

Lex Fridman 56:21 ... kind of structured

Narrator 56:21 Is interesting.

Joe Rogan 56:22 Yeah, debate structures. But even then it gets difficult because people talk over each other. And also, um, I find that without headphones, it's way easier to talk over each other.

Lex Fridman 56:33 Yes.

Joe Rogan 56:33 You make mistakes.

Lex Fridman 56:33 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 56:34 You don't, you don't hear it the same way. When you have headphones, you, I hear what you hear, it's all one sound and I, the audience hears exactly, uh, I, or rather I hear exactly what the audience hears. Whether it's, uh, over here my, my voice is louder than yours 'cause you're over there, and if I don't have headphones on, it doesn't, it's not all together.

Lex Fridman 56:54 On that point, one of the interesting things about your show is, uh, you don't, almost never have done, and you just generally don't do remote like in, um, sorry, not remote calls, but you don't go to another person's location. Like-

Joe Rogan 57:08 Yeah, I've only done a few, a small handful.

Lex Fridman 57:10 And then just like, uh, well Sapolsky, he should be-

Joe Rogan 57:13 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 57:13 He should do this but I actually-

Joe Rogan 57:14 I would love to.

Lex Fridman 57:14 How we went back and forth on email, I told him he needs to get your, his ass back in, in, (laughs) in this, in this studio. Uh, he's working on a book, but-

Joe Rogan 57:21 I was a fan of his a long time ago because I became obsessed with toxoplasmosis.

Lex Fridman 57:26 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 57:26 You know, and, uh, I, uh, I, I reached out to him a long time ago before he, uh, was willing to do it. But then I caught him in downtown LA, he was there for something else and I just greedily snatched up an hour of his time.

Lex Fridman 57:40 Well, he doesn't get, I think, some of those folks don't get how much magic can happen in this podcast studio. Like bigger than anything they've ever done in terms of their work. Not, I'm not talking about reach, but in terms of the discovery of new ideas. There's something magical about conversation; like that, like somebody as brilliant as him, if he gives himself over to the conversation for multiple hours at a time, that's another place where you've been an inspiration. Where I like, you know, I'm getting more and more confidence of telling people like an Elon Musk that like, you know, a lot of CEOs are like, "Well, he has 30 minutes on his schedule." I'm like, "No, uh, three hours."

Joe Rogan 58:22 (laughs)

Lex Fridman 58:24 (Laughs) So, and then they're like, so some say no, and then they come back. There's people that started coming back that like, "Okay, well we s- we're starting to get it." They start to get it. And you're a rare beacon of hope in that sense, that there's some value in long form. They think that nobody wants to listen for 30, uh, for more than 30 minutes. That they think like I have nothing to say. But the reality is if you just give yourself over to like the three hours, just let it go, three hours, four hours, whatever it is, there's so much to discover about what you didn't even know you think.

Joe Rogan 58:58 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 58:59 Like-

Joe Rogan 58:59 Yeah, you have to be confident that you could do it. And, uh, in the beginning I just did it because that's what I wanted to do and no one was listening. So I, I've always been a curious person. So I've always, I've always been interested in listening to how people think about things and how, uh, and talking to people about their mindset and just, and expanding on my own ideas and just talking shit. And so we would have these podcasts and they would go on forever. And my, (laughs) I've, my friend, Ari, uh, I've, I never let 'em die d- never let this die down, never let him, uh, forget this. He was always like, "You have to edit your podcast. I'm telling you right now, you're fucking up." I go, "Why?" He's like, "Because people are not gonna listen to it." I go, "They don't have to."

Lex Fridman 59:44 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 59:45 I go, "You can listen to part of it." He goes, he goes, "Just do it. Just, I'm telling you, trust me. Cut it down to like 45 minutes, that's all you need." And I'm like, "No. No, I don't think you're right." I go, "I, I like listening to long form things." "No one has that kind of time." I go, "Okay. I'm gonna do, I'm just gonna keep doing it this way." So.

Lex Fridman 1:00:01 And it, and it, so stick to your gut.

Joe Rogan 1:00:03 Now he does it. Now he does it.

Lex Fridman 1:00:04 He does it.

Joe Rogan 1:00:04 His, his are like two and a half hours long now. (laughs)

Lex Fridman 1:00:06 That's great. You won. But you wouldn't like say... I, I mentioned to you this before, and this is gonna happen, it's actually made a lot of progress towards it, I'm gonna talk to Putin. But you wouldn't travel to Putin if he wanted to talk to you?

Joe Rogan 1:00:19 Putin's a dangerous character.

Lex Fridman 1:00:21 He's not. He's not.

Joe Rogan 1:00:23 You ever talk to, have you ever seen the, uh, thing with, uh, Jerry Craft where he stole a Super Bowl ring?

Lex Fridman 1:00:28 Yeah. Yeah, that was... I think that was-

Joe Rogan 1:00:30 He's a dangerous person.

Lex Fridman 1:00:30 ... a little bit of misunderstanding.

Joe Rogan 1:00:31 Oh, really?

Lex Fridman 1:00:32 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:00:33 I think it's a little bit, he just decided he's gonna steal that Super Bowl ring.

Lex Fridman 1:00:36 Kind of. I think there's a-

Joe Rogan 1:00:37 Kind of?

Lex Fridman 1:00:37 He thought-

Joe Rogan 1:00:38 "Guy, can I see your ring?" He shows him his ring then he puts it on and says-

Lex Fridman 1:00:41 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:00:41 ... "I can murder somebody with this ring."

Lex Fridman 1:00:43 So he-

Joe Rogan 1:00:43 And then he walks off with it.

Lex Fridman 1:00:44 It's possible he did it, uh, as a, he's a big believer in displays of power.

Joe Rogan 1:00:50 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 1:00:51 So like, it's possible he did that but, uh, and I think he sees himself as like-... uh, um, a tool with which to demonstrate that Russia still belongs on the stage of the big players.

Joe Rogan 1:01:03 Mm-hmm.

Lex Fridman 1:01:03 And so, he, the, a lot of the actions are selected through that, uh, lens. But in terms of a human being, outside of any of the evils that, uh, he may or may not have done, he is a really thoughtful, intelligent, fun human being. Like, the wit, uh, and the depth from the JRE perspective is really interesting, I'm like his manager now, so like-

Joe Rogan 1:01:29 (laughs)

Lex Fridman 1:01:29 ... the, he's a judo guy.

Joe Rogan 1:01:31 You're trying to get in trouble. He's really good at judo.

Lex Fridman 1:01:33 He's-

Joe Rogan 1:01:33 I, I have seen him practice judo. He's-

Lex Fridman 1:01:35 And-

Joe Rogan 1:01:35 ... he's a legit black belt.

Lex Fridman 1:01:36 And not only that, he, uh, loves it, not just skill-wise, but to talk about it, to reason about it, to think about it, the MMA as well. So-

Joe Rogan 1:01:45 Mm-hmm.

Lex Fridman 1:01:45 ... you know, it, it'd be, uh, it'd be a good conversation. But you wouldn't travel to him? (laughs) Well, that's hold to your principles, so that's the core of the advice, just-

Joe Rogan 1:01:55 I'm, I don't-

Lex Fridman 1:01:55 ... hold to whatever-

Joe Rogan 1:01:56 ... I would rather (clears throat) here's the thing. There's not a person that I have to have on the show.

Lex Fridman 1:02:03 Right.

Joe Rogan 1:02:04 And I would... I'm happy to talk to anybody. I'm just as happy to talk to you as I am to talk to Trump, as I am to... Probably more happy to talk to you, as I am to talk to Mike Tyson, as I am to talk to Joey Diaz. I like talking to people. I enjoy doing podcasts. I enjoy talking to a variety of people. And I schedule them based on, I wanna, like... I, I try not to get too many right-wing people in a row or too many-

Lex Fridman 1:02:28 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:02:28 ... progressive people in a row. I don't wanna get repetitive. Try not to get too many fighters in a row. I try to balance it out, not too many comedians. Comedians are the one, (clears throat) one group where I can have three or four in a row, five in a row, 'cause that's my tribe, you know, those are my people. It's easy. We can talk about anything.

Joe Rogan 1:02:45 It's a weird dance, you know?

Lex Fridman 1:02:47 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:02:47 The, the, the conversations that you're doing on a podcast are, are... they're, they're a strange dance. And you wanna, you know, you wanna not step on your own feet and you wanna make sure that you do it in a way, do the podcast in a way that's entertaining for people. And it's, it's a w- conversations or learning how to talk to people, it's a weird skill.

Lex Fridman 1:03:08 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:03:09 It's a weird skill that took a long time for me to get good at. And I didn't know it was a skill until I started doing it. And then I, I, I just thought you were just talking. Like, I was just, I know how to talk, we'll just talk to people. And then along the way, I realized like, oh. And then when you talk to people that are bad at it, you realize that it's a skill. Like, particularly one of the things about my people, about comedians is a lot of 'em tend to want to talk but don't wanna listen.

Lex Fridman 1:03:34 Right. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:03:35 So they're, they're waiting for you to stop talking so they can talk. But they're not necessarily thinking about what you're saying, you know? And they're just, they're just waiting for their opportunity or they talk over you or they... And I try real hard not to do that and sometimes I fail. But my, when I'm at my best, I'm, I'm dancing.

Lex Fridman 1:03:55 Yeah. Ultimately, the skill conversation is just really listening.

Joe Rogan 1:03:59 Mm-hmm.

Lex Fridman 1:03:59 Like, really, and listening and thinking-

Joe Rogan 1:04:02 Listening and thinking.

Lex Fridman 1:04:03 ... about, about what they say.

Joe Rogan 1:04:03 ... and being, like, genuinely curious-

Lex Fridman 1:04:05 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:04:05 ... and, and really having, um, uh, you know, a, a take on what they're saying and, and a, and a, and a maybe a follow-up question or maybe... And you just gotta, it's gotta be real. It's gotta be authentic. And when it is authentic and it's real, it resonates with people. Like, they're listening and they go, "Oh, like, I'm locked in with the way you're thinking." Like, you two guys are in a conversation and I'm locked in, you know? When she talks and you listen, I f- I'm listening too, you know? When he says something to her or when she says something to, to him, like, the- there- there's a thing that happens during conversations where you're there, like, you're listening to a... I, I... And it's with me when I listen to a good podcast, I feel like I'm in the room. I feel like I'm in the room and I'm like, like I'm, I'm like the friend that got to sit down and listen. Like, "Oh yeah, that's a great conversation."

Lex Fridman 1:04:54 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:04:54 You know?

Lex Fridman 1:04:55 Yep.

Joe Rogan 1:04:55 I love conversations. So I, I love listening to them and I love putting them together. And the fact that this podcast has gotten so fucking big, it, it, it's stunning to me. It blows me away. No, I never anticipated it. Never thought for a second that that stupid thing that I used to do on my couch in my, uh, my office was the biggest thing I've ever done in my life by far. Like, people used to make fun of it. Like, there's a Comedy Store documentary that's coming out (clears throat) and one of the parts of the documentary is my friend Tom Segura, when he first started doing my podcast, he would, he would be leaving and he would talk to Redman. He's like, "What the fuck is he doing?"

Lex Fridman 1:05:32 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:05:32 Like, "Why is he doing this?"

Lex Fridman 1:05:33 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:05:33 Like, "Who, who's listening?" He's like, "Oh, some people like it."

Lex Fridman 1:05:36 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:05:36 And he is like, "Fucking nonsense. Waste of time." And like, in the, the documentary shows, like, 2,000 views, like, one of the early USTREAM episodes.

Lex Fridman 1:05:45 It's hilarious. And they don't just like it, really, they, uh, they form a friendship with you. It's like, uh, even me, when people come up to me, like, the love in their eyes is kind of beautiful. Uh-

Joe Rogan 1:05:56 It's weird, right?

Lex Fridman 1:05:57 Yeah. It's like, uh-

Joe Rogan 1:05:58 You're part of their life.

Lex Fridman 1:05:59 Yeah. And it, I don't know. It's al- it's also heartbreaking 'cause, uh, you realize you'll never really get to know them back. Like, 'cause they, they clearly are friends with you.

Joe Rogan 1:06:10 Yes. Yeah.

Lex Fridman 1:06:11 And, and it's sad to see a person who's clearly brilliant and interesting and is friends with you-

Joe Rogan 1:06:15 (laughs)

Lex Fridman 1:06:17 ... but you don't get a chance to return that love. And, uh, it's, I mean, it's-

Joe Rogan 1:06:21 My kids, it took them a while to figure out what's going on.

Lex Fridman 1:06:24 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:06:24 But, uh, people come up to me and, uh, uh, you know, they would say something like, "Hey, man, I fucking love you. Thanks, man." I go, "All right. Hey, brother, nice meeting you." My daughter was like six. She'd be like, "Do you know him?"

Lex Fridman 1:06:36 (laughs) Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:06:36 I'd be like, "No, I don't know him." She's like, "How does he know you?" (laughs)

Lex Fridman 1:06:41 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:06:41 Like, (laughs) and we'd get into this very weird conversation I used to have with young kids when I'd explain I do this thing called a podcast and millions of people listen. So now, one of my daughters is 12 and one of her friends is 13, and he's a boy and he goes to school with her and he's obsessed with me. And so she's weirded out and she says to him, "I don't even think you like me. I think you're just into my dad, you fucking weirdo."

Lex Fridman 1:07:04 (laughs) She's gonna have that conversation at few stages in her life.

Joe Rogan 1:07:09 (laughs) Um, probably.

Lex Fridman 1:07:09 Like that, that hard conversation with her boyfriend.

Joe Rogan 1:07:12 Yeah, probably. Yeah. That, well, that's the thing about men too. This, this podcast, um, is, uh, my podcast is uniquely masculine. I am a man, and I'm, I'm not... I, I, I'm also a man that doesn't have to go through some sort of a corporate filter. I'm not going through executive producers who tell me, "Don't, don't have this guest on. Don't talk about that." You know, that, we, we looked at focus groups, and they don't, they don't seem to like when you do this. Like, there's none of that. I just... And I, I, I, I just do it. So if that's what... So I have a whole podcast where I just talk about cars.

Lex Fridman 1:07:46 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:07:46 And people are like, "I don't wanna hear you talk about cars." Well, good. Congratulations.

Lex Fridman 1:07:50 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:07:50 Um, you found what you like. Here's good news. There's 1,500 other ones. Go listen to the other episodes where I don't talk about cars. You know, you don't have to listen.

Lex Fridman 1:07:58 (laughs) And it's not like your brand. You're just-

Joe Rogan 1:08:01 No.

Lex Fridman 1:08:02 ... are who you are, and that's what you do.

Joe Rogan 1:08:04 But it's like, it's authentically what I'm interested in. All the podcasts, whether I'm talking to David Fravor about his experience with UFOs, whether I'm talking to, uh, David Sinclair about life extension, whether I'm talking to you about artificial intelligence, or what... It's because I want to talk to these people.

Lex Fridman 1:08:23 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:08:23 And that, that resonates. I, I like when people are into shit. You know, I've talked about this before. Like, things that... I have no interest in making furniture, but I like this PBS show where this guy makes-

Lex Fridman 1:08:34 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:08:34 ... furniture by hand.

Lex Fridman 1:08:35 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:08:35 I love watching it.

Lex Fridman 1:08:36 Craftsman.

Joe Rogan 1:08:37 'Cause he's so into it.

Lex Fridman 1:08:38 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:08:38 He's sanding this and polishing that. I'm not gonna do that. I don't give a fuck about furniture. Furniture for me is function. Like this desk.

Lex Fridman 1:08:45 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:08:45 Function, it works. But I love when people are into it.

Lex Fridman 1:08:48 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:08:48 You know, and I'm happy that someone can make it and they do a great job, but I'm not, I'm not interested in the th- the task as, or the, even the finished product as much as I'm interested in someone's passion for something.

Lex Fridman 1:09:01 Yeah. The passion that they've put into this.

Joe Rogan 1:09:03 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 1:09:03 That, that shines through.

Lex Fridman 1:09:05 Last question. I sometimes ask this just for it to, uh, what is it? To challenge, to make people roll their eyes. To make legitimate scientists roll their eyes.

Joe Rogan 1:09:17 (laughs)

Lex Fridman 1:09:17 I ask, uh, uh, what is the meaning of life?

Joe Rogan 1:09:21 Mm-hmm.

Lex Fridman 1:09:21 According to Joe Rogan.

Joe Rogan 1:09:22 I do not think there is a meaning. I think there's many, many meanings of life. I think there's a way to navigate life that's enjoyable. I think it requires many things. It requires, first of all, it requires love. You have to have loved ones, you have to have family, you have to have friends, you have to have people that care about you, and you have to care about them. I think that is primary. Then it also requires interests. There has to be things that stimulate you. Now, it could be just a subsistence lifestyle. There's many people that believe and practice this, uh, lifestyle of just living off the land and hunting and fishing and living in the woods, and they seem incredibly happy.

Lex Fridman 1:10:03 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:10:03 And there's, there's something to be said for that. That is an interest, right? There's something, and there's a, there's a, a direct connection between their actions and their sustenance. They, they get their food that way. They're connected to nature, and the... And it's very satisfying for them. If you don't have that, uh, I think you need something that is interesting to you, pa- something that's, you're passionate about. And there's far too many people that get sucked into living a life where you're just doing a job, you're just showing up and putting in your time and then going home, but you don't have a passion for what you're doing. And I think that is... That's a recipe for a boring and very unfulfilling life.

Lex Fridman 1:10:43 You mentioned love-

Joe Rogan 1:10:45 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 1:10:45 ... if we could just backtrack. What, uh... We, we talked about the demons and the violence in there somewhere. What's the role of love in this... in your own life?

Joe Rogan 1:10:55 It's very important, man. And it, it... That's one of the reasons why I'm so, uh, I'm so interested in helping people. I, I'm very interested in people feeling good. I like them to feel good. I want to help them. I like, I like doing things that make them feel like, "Oh, you care about me." Like, yeah, I care about you.

Lex Fridman 1:11:14 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:11:14 I really do.

Lex Fridman 1:11:15 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:11:15 Like, I want people to feel good. I want my family to feel good. I want my friends to feel good. I want guests to feel good about the podcast experience. You know, I, I am, uh, I'm a big believer in as much as I can just spread positive energy and joy and happiness, and, and relay all the good advice that I've ever gotten. All the things that I've learned, and if they can benefit people, then I find that those things benefit people, and then actually improve the quality of their life or improve their success or improve their relationships or... I'm very happy to do that. Uh, that, that means a lot to me. The, the way we interact with each other is, is so important. It's one of the reasons why like when someone gets canceled or you get publicly shamed, it's so devastating, 'cause there's all these people that negative.

Lex Fridman 1:12:02 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:12:02 All this negative energy coming your way, and you feel it. As much as you like to pretend that you, you're immune to that kind of stuff, and some people do like to pretend that, you feel it. There's a, there's a tangible force when people are upset at you. And that's the same with loved ones or family, or anytime someone's upset at you, whether it's a-

Lex Fridman 1:12:20 You feel it.

Joe Rogan 1:12:20 ... giant group of people or there's a small amount of people. That has an impact on you and your psyche and your physical being. So the more you can spread love and the more love comes back to you, you also create this butterfly effect, right? Becau- where other people start recognizing like, "Oh, you know, when he is nice to me, I feel better, and then I'm gonna be nicer to people. And when I'm nicer to people, they feel better, and I feel better." And then, and it spreads outward.

Lex Fridman 1:12:48 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 1:12:48 And that's one thing that I've done through this podcast, I think, is I've, I've imparted my personal philosophy on, uh, in, in kindness and generosity to other people. And I've-

Lex Fridman 1:12:57 Yeah, but I mean, uh, to correct you, you didn't do it. The ideas that are breeding themselves through your brain have figured out-

Joe Rogan 1:13:03 Yes (laughs) . The ideas-

Lex Fridman 1:13:04 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:13:04 ... that are alive in the air have-

Lex Fridman 1:13:06 Exactly.

Joe Rogan 1:13:06 ... made their way into my head.

Lex Fridman 1:13:07 Love is a more efficient mechanism of spreading ideas, they figured out-

Joe Rogan 1:13:11 Yes (laughs) .

Lex Fridman 1:13:13 ... than, than hatred.

Joe Rogan 1:13:13 Probably, man. Probably. Um, so a- as far as like, uh...... the meaning of life. That's, that's a big... Without that, you have nothing. You know, one of the big- biggest failures in life is to be extremely successful financially but everybody hates you. Everybody hates you and you're just miserable and alone and angry and depressed and sad. You know, when you f- you hear about rich famous people that commit suicide, like wow, you missed the mark. You got, uh, some parts right, but you put too many eggs in one basket. You put too many eggs in the financial basket or the success basket or the accomplishment basket and not enough in the friendship and love basket. And there's a balance to that. And, uh, when I talked about the violence and all, all that stuff, like that to me is me, uh, well, understanding and recognizing that is me trying to achieve that balance, is to, like, go kill those demons so that this boat is level. You know? Because if it's not, then the boat is like this and then everything's all fucked up and every time we hit a wave, things fall apart. Balance that boat out. Figure it out. Like, know who you are. Some people don't have that problem at all. Some people, they could just go for walks and