John Clarke: The Art of Fighting and the Pursuit of Excellence | Lex Fridman Podcast #143

Lex Fridman 0:00 The following is a conversation with John Clark. He's a friend, a Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu black belt, former MMA fighter, and at least in my opinion, one of the great UFC cornermen coaches to listen to. And also, he's my current Jiu-Jitsu coach at Broadway Jiu-Jitsu in South Boston. He was once, for a time, a philosophy major in college and is now, I would say, a kind of practicing philosopher. Opinated, brilliant, and someone I always enjoy talking to even when, especially when, we disagree, which we do often. He's definitely someone I can see talking to many times in this podcast. In fact, he hosts a new podcast of his own called Please Allow Me. Quick mention of each sponsor followed by some thoughts related to the episode. Thank you to Theragun, the device I use for post-workout muscle recovery, Magic Spoon, low-carb, keto-friendly cereal that I think is delicious, Eight Sleep, a mattress that cools itself and gives me yet another reason to enjoy sleep, and Cash App, the app I use to send money to friends. Please check out these sponsors in the description to get a discount and to support this podcast. As a side note, let me say that martial arts, especially Jiu-Jitsu and Judo, have been a big part of my growth as a human being. So, I think I will talk to a few martial artists on occasion on this podcast. I hope that is of interest to you. I won't talk to people who are simply great fighters or great athletes, but people who have a philosophy that I find to be interesting and worth exploring, even if I disagree with parts or most of it. I like alternating between historians and computer scientists, fighters and biologists, and between totally different world views and personalities like Elon Musk and Michael Malice. This world, to me, is fascinating because of the diversity of weirdness that is human civilization. I love the weird and the brilliant and hope you join me on the journey of exploring both. If you don't like an episode, skip it. For an OCD person like myself, sometimes not listening to a podcast episode is an act of courage. It's like not finishing a book even though you're 80% done. Try it sometimes. Listen to ones you like, and don't listen to the ones you don't like. I know, it's profound advice. If you enjoy this thing, subscribe on YouTube, review it with five stars on Apple Podcast, follow on Spotify, support on Patreon, or connect with me on Twitter @LexFridman. And now here's my conversation with John Clark.

Lex Fridman 2:43 You ready for this?

John Clarke 2:45 I've been ready for this my whole life.

Lex Fridman 2:46 All right. I was thinking of doing a Kerouac style road trip across the United States, you know, after this whole COVID thing lifts. You ever take a trip like that?

John Clarke 2:56 I've done a handful of long-distance driving trips, um, up and down the East Coast, but also from the West Coast back to the East Coast, and then returning to California. So, I've definitely done my fair share of driving in this country.

Lex Fridman 3:12 Do you have the longing for the great American road trip?

John Clarke 3:16 I think there are so many things that I've been lucky enough to see in the world that I now, at this point in my life, realize there are tons of things that I need to see here in this country, and a road trip could potentially be the best way to see them. I think to do it effectively, you need an amount of time where you can be as leisurely as possible. There's no deadline and there's no "I've gotta make it from Chicago to St. Louis by sundown to get to this place at this time." I think you really need to be able to take your time and, uh, and kind of like let the road take you where you need to go.

Lex Fridman 3:51 It feels like you need a mission though, ultimately. Like, there's a reason you need to be in San Francisco. That's like the Kerouac thing. You have to meet somebody somewhere kinda loosely in a few weeks, and then it's the... As you struggle on towards that mission, you meet weird characters that get in your way, but ultimately sort of create an experience.

John Clarke 4:11 I think having a loose deadline is good. But that's a beginning and an end point. And what I mean is I don't wanna have to be, "All right, we're leaving, say, Boston on Sunday night. Let's get to New York by Monday morning, and then from New York, we're gonna go to Philly, and we've got to be in Philly at 4:00." A, a vague beginning and end is fine, but I think having very strict guidelines in between will rob you of certain experiences along the way. If you have a timeframe to get from Philly to Indianapolis and some awesome shit starts to happen in Philly, do you really wanna have to cut it short because you gotta be in Indianapolis by sunup?

Lex Fridman 4:50 Why do you have to be anywhere by any time for any reason really?

John Clarke 4:54 Well-

Lex Fridman 4:54 Plans change.

John Clarke 4:55 Plans change all the time, exactly. But if we're talking about, um, having a mission or the type of road trip, I just think it would be best to have it as loose and, uh, flexible as possible.

Lex Fridman 5:07 I don't know. You gotta make hard deadlines and then break them, totally change the plans, disappoint people, break promises. That's the way of life. Somebody's waiting for you in St. Louis, and all of a sudden you, you fell in love with a biker in New York. I don't know. I don't know what you're up to.

John Clarke 5:25 I can appreciate that. Um, but on a trip like that, I feel like a trip with deadlines is for a different point in your life. And at this point in my life, I don't want any of the deadlines because it's not about meeting someone and disappointing them in St. Louis. It's about me not disappointing myself. You wanna have, you wanna have enough time in what you're doing to make sure that you get the full breadth of every experience that you encounter.

Lex Fridman 5:52 How would you fully experience a place? How would you... You know, I- I don't think I've actually fully experienced Boston. Like how... If you were showing up to, to a city for a week on this road trip-... what would you do?

John Clarke 6:04 So, I'm going to answer that in two parts. A few years ago, I had an opportunity to move out of Boston. And the thing that kept me here, no question about it, was the fact that I felt like I had a, um, a contract with my students. And I did not... I felt like a great many of them took a leap of faith, uh, by joining my gym and like, you know, asking me to teach them what I know. And when I had an opportunity to leave Boston, I thought of those people and I thought, "I want to fulfill my obligation to them." So, because I made a decision to stay here, I then that summer made a decision to endear myself to the city of Boston, and I tried to find lots and lots of different things to do. I can tell you that the coolest thing that I found to do in this city is, um, the MFA, where they have, like, on Friday nights, they'll have like different exhibits and stuff, and they'll have like little beer carts and food tents, and you can go do a painting class off in the... in, uh, on the side. Very cool night of things to do. But in general, whenever I'm in a new city, I try not to pay attention to Google and I try not to do anything that I find on a travel site. The best thing to do is to walk out of your hotel or wherever it is you're staying and find the most normal looking bar, have a drink, and talk to a bartender. And-

Lex Fridman 7:19 So, the people. The people.

John Clarke 7:21 The people. And then you can experience that town the way that they experience it. Even in a city where there are tons of tourist attractions, locals probably visit the same tourist attractions when they have visitors come from out of town. But you want to see how they view those places and how they visit them, and you want to go to eat where they're going to eat. Like, you know, you're gonna... uh, I... uh, for the most part, the North End is not a place where I would take someone and say, "Hey, this is Boston's... the pinnacle of Boston dining," because it's very touristy. There are a handful of really good restaurants there. But I want to know where the, where the... I want to go to Bogie's Place. I want to know, like, the, the down low spots where-

Lex Fridman 8:00 What the hell's Bogie's Place?

John Clarke 8:01 It's like a little steakhouse in the back of JM Curley's. Exactly.

Lex Fridman 8:04 It's like a shitty bar? JM Curley's-

John Clarke 8:06 No. It's just a b- it's just a, a bar with, like, bar food. But I think that like, um, ta-

Lex Fridman 8:11 It's South Boston?

John Clarke 8:12 It is in Boston, yeah. It's-

Lex Fridman 8:13 Not South Boston?

John Clarke 8:14 No. It's in, um... it's in the downtown area. Like, um... I don't know what the neighborhoods are called here, honestly, because they call... they- they have an area called Downtown Boston, and I don't even know what the hell that means. I think it's near the Financial District.

Lex Fridman 8:28 Where's Southie? Because I've heard about this Southie.

John Clarke 8:31 Southie is South Boston.

Lex Fridman 8:33 But is there, is there a difference between South Boston and Southie?

John Clarke 8:36 No. It's the same thing.

Lex Fridman 8:37 No. But like, you know, the mythical Southie.

John Clarke 8:39 I think the mythical Southie is, uh, something that's long gone now, and-

Lex Fridman 8:44 (laughs) .

John Clarke 8:45 ... the, the term now actually is SoBo.

Lex Fridman 8:49 Oh, no.

John Clarke 8:49 Yeah. It's-

Lex Fridman 8:50 It changed? What? Who, who took over what? What's the, you know, the Good Will Hunting personality? That's Southie, isn't it? Strong accent, those bad-ass dudes.

John Clarke 8:58 I came here right at the end of, like, what was South Boston. So, when I got... and my gym is in South Boston, the neighborhood was just starting to change. So, I think as gentrification happened and they started building more luxury condominiums, they were buying all these old businesses out, all the mom and pop businesses. And I think that kind of changed the, the makeup of the community. And it wasn't only because there was an influx of new young people, uh, with disposable income. It's because there was an exodus of the, the older people who kind of grew up and raised their families there because they were being offered humongous sums of money for their homes that they had bought, like, in the late '70s and early '80s so that they could develop those areas. So, you have a combination of the influx of new people and the exodus of the old, and now you just got this totally new neighborhood in, in its place.

Lex Fridman 9:52 What do you love about Boston? Is there a love still for Boston? You certainly have the love of the thing that's gone as well.

John Clarke 10:01 Yeah. I think... I don't want to pinpoint, pin this on Boston because it's happening in all great cities. As these areas become gentrified, what's happening is the personality and the character of the neighborhood is, is just being run out. And I have nothing against people coming in and making money and things like that. But when you do it at the expense of the culture, the character, and the personality of the neighborhood, I mean, you're kind of standing on the shoulders of giants. These are the people that came here and built these areas up. Uh, and it happens here in, in Boston. It happens in... all over New York. Uh, it happens on the West Coast. So, what I love about Boston is not nearly as romantic as what it might have been 15 years ago and what I used to love about New York. What I love about Boston is that, um, it's walkable.

Lex Fridman 10:50 (laughs) .

John Clarke 10:51 Um-

Lex Fridman 10:51 Yeah.

John Clarke 10:51 ... the food scene is on, is on the rise here. Um, but I think you're, you're hard-pressed to find the charm that people think of when they think of old Boston and old New England city.

Lex Fridman 11:04 See, I... I see it differently. People sometimes criticize, like, MIT, like, for the thing that it is now, but I think it is always like that. It... I tend to prefer to carry the flame of the his- of the greatness, the greatest moments of its history and, like, sort of enjoy that, the echoes of that in the halls of MIT. In the same way in Boston you think about the history, and that history lives on in the few individuals. Like, you can't just look around what Boston is now and be like, "What has Boston become?" I think it was always carried by a minority of individuals. I, I think we kind of look back, uh, uh, in history and think, like, times were greater in a certain kind of dimension back then. But just because we remember... uh, this is a ridiculous, non-data-driven assertion of mine, is we remember just the, this, the, the, the brightest stars of that history, and so we romanticize it. But I think if you look around now, those special people are still living in Boston, for which Boston will be remembered as a great city in like 50 years.

John Clarke 12:11 I think you're probably right. But isn't there some sort of theory about... The point... There's like a certain age in your life where things resonate differently to you? Like, I think they've done studies where most people stop searching for new music after age 19.

Lex Fridman 12:28 Yeah.

John Clarke 12:28 Most dads you see, like, wearing super old clothes, like, the... That's the style of the time period of the last great part of their life. So, like there's an evolution in- in people and it- it could also be the memories of where they lived. When I was 17, of course, my neighborhood was the best then because I was having the most fun. And we always kind of look at things through, uh, that- that tint, I think. And you're right. And I don't think there's anything wrong with the way cities are evolving now. It's just not, um... I- I- I preferred a time of like a mom and pop store, not a fabricated like, uh, gastro pub that could just be like on a four-lane superhighway on your- on your way out of Epcot Center. And it's- it's actually owned by like some conglomerate.

Lex Fridman 13:13 But there's still the special places. Like I... This takes us back to the road trip, is, um, maybe... I tend to romanticize the experiences of, like, the diners in the middle of nowhere. Uh, what would you say makes for like... It feels like life is made up of these experiences that are... That maybe on paper seem mundane, but are actually... Somehow give you a chance to pause and reflect on life with like a certain kind of p- people, whether they're like really close friends or complete strangers. Maybe alcohol is involved in the middle of nowhere. It seems like a road trip facilitates that if you allow it to. Like, what do you think makes for those kinds of experiences? Have you had any?

John Clarke 13:58 I think (sighs) in the context of a road trip, I think it's like hyper-localization, and I think it is, um, those- those experiences along the way with people, and the people that you're with will color their experiences differently depending on the person.

Lex Fridman 14:17 The road trip you took was, uh, with somebody else or alone?

John Clarke 14:20 So, I've driven up and down the East Coast several times. When I drove from LA to New York, um, my friend was, uh, on the run from the cops.

Lex Fridman 14:29 (laughs) Yeah.

John Clarke 14:30 So, we were trying to get out of-

Lex Fridman 14:32 Traffic tickets?

John Clarke 14:33 Yeah, traffic tickets.

Lex Fridman 14:34 Allegedly?

John Clarke 14:34 Yeah, allegedly.

Lex Fridman 14:35 Yeah, yeah.

John Clarke 14:35 We were trying to get out of LA because, um, he was going to have to go away for a little while.

Lex Fridman 14:40 Yeah.

John Clarke 14:40 So, we drove from LA and we just... You know, we were young kids. We had no idea what we were doing. And we drove east. And then, you know, we had an unbelievable trip, mostly because we didn't really have a destination. We didn't really have a time frame, thank goodness, uh, 'cause he got arrested again in Pennsylvania. So, we got kind of stuck there. And then, um, you know, and then we- we drove back to LA when he got out in Pennsylvania. Um, but all the stops along the way were kind of like weird things. Like, you have no money, right? So, you're finding that like the little diamond in the rough place to eat, the diner you talk about.

Lex Fridman 15:16 Yeah, yeah.

John Clarke 15:16 Like that place. I- I once was in... (clears throat) Where was I? I think I was in Buenos Aires, and the guy that I was with, he said, "I know this quaint little spot around the corner." And I was young. I was like 25, and I thought the coolest thing in the world would be to be such a citizen of the world that you know these quaint little spots around the corner in like all these great cities. Like, I know where to get this great chicken sandwich in Argentina. I know where to get this great meal in Costa Rica. I know where to get this super local, like, um, egg in another country. I just thought that that was really cool, the ability to do that anywhere in the world.

Lex Fridman 15:52 Did you get closer with that guy when, uh, through the trip? I found that like, uh... So I took- I took a trip across the United States with, uh, with a guy friend of mine. We had different goals. I was searching for meaning in life, and he was searching for, um... What's the politically correct way of- of phrasing it? But just, uh, basically trying to sleep with every kind of woman that this world has to offer.

John Clarke 16:15 What's the difference between those two things? (laughs)

Lex Fridman 16:17 Well, I guess you're searching for the different kinds of meanings. (laughs)

John Clarke 16:21 Oh. (laughs)

Lex Fridman 16:21 I- I mean, I just... I- I- I still think that you can't find meaning between a woman's legs, I suppose. Uh, that maybe-

John Clarke 16:28 Have you tried all of them?

Lex Fridman 16:30 (laughs) Uh, but there was a tension there. We grew closer with those experiences, but we've gotten in fights. You know, there was a lot of like literal almost fights, and then we were close and there was like silences, but then we were like brothers. It was this whole weird journey of friendship that we went on.

John Clarke 16:50 I think anytime you spend that much time in, uh, like a small space with another person, you're gonna have the- the different parts of the relationship will manifest themselves. You'll have the periods of closeness. You'll have the periods of vulnerability where it's like maybe you're driving through Denver and it's 3:00 in the morning and you talk about something you might not have otherwise talked about. You'll have the periods where you don't want to see that motherfucker ever again. Right? He didn't... And depending, could be because of anything.

Lex Fridman 17:15 Yeah.

John Clarke 17:16 Um, but the guy that I drove twice with, we are still... We're still in contact. We're still buddies. We- we have very different goals also. Um, but at that point in our lives, we were not... We never even contemplated the meaning of life. We were about, probably more to the point of the friend that you drove with, we were more about racking up experiences, whatever they were.

Lex Fridman 17:38 Right.

John Clarke 17:40 I want to be able to retell this.

Lex Fridman 17:42 Hmm. Stories.

John Clarke 17:43 Yeah. I want to be able to retell this. And it's got to sound cool. Like, I don't want to retell a story about, "Yeah, and then we drove through Alabama and they've got a lovely library and I checked out this book," and... You know, I'm not interested in retelling that.

Lex Fridman 17:54 Do you- do you remember any, um... This is a kids' show. Do you remember any stories that the kids would enjoy from those times-

John Clarke 18:02 Um.

Lex Fridman 18:02 ... that were profound in some kind of way?

John Clarke 18:05 (sighs) There were some impactful moments on the beginning of our road trip where we had no money, and as a couple of kids who knew nothing, we literally had to... We stopped in Vegas and we went to Circus Circus.... at the time they had $3 blackjack and we had like 12 bucks. And my buddy was a kind of a degenerate gambler, so he knew what was up. But I was just like kinda stuffing chips in my pockets, making sure we could pay for the gas. Um, and just being at the point which is like a starting line and n- like we drove from LA to Vegas, which is only about four hours. And being at the starting line and realizing like, "We may not even, like, get off the starting line here. And if we don't, what are we doing? We're going to be two guys stuck in Vegas. We have no money. We can't go west 'cause you're going to get pinched. We have no money to go east. What the hell are we gonna do? Are we going to wind up in Vegas?" Um, so, you know, that, that was kind of a profound thing where you just... It's a turning... It potentially could have been a turning point in our lives had we not made enough money to, to continue going east.

Lex Fridman 19:04 That's the beautiful thing about road trips when you're broke, is like, in retrospect, everything turned out fine. But you're facing the complete darkness, the uncertainty of the possibilities laid before you. And like, I don't know if you were confident at that time, but like, I was really full of self-doubt. Like, just, like all I could see is all the trajectories where you just screw up your life. Like, "What am I doing with my life? I'm a fail..." Like, "All these dreams I've had, I've never realized. I'm a complete piece of shit." All those kinds of things.

John Clarke 19:35 I had no concept of consequence. I, I, like... I was... I, I probably had toxoplasmosis.

Lex Fridman 19:41 (laughs)

John Clarke 19:42 I had literally no concept of consequence. Immediate gratification was all I cared about.

Lex Fridman 19:47 Oh, so existentialist.

John Clarke 19:48 Yeah. It did not, it did not even enter my mind at, in my like early 20s that anything that I was doing at that point could reverberate for the rest of my life. I think part of me didn't even think I'd make it this far.

Lex Fridman 20:02 Yeah.

John Clarke 20:02 And so I was not interested in, like, the long play. I remember thinking, like, "Why should I be acting now in a way that might impact a point in my life I never reach?"

Lex Fridman 20:12 And yet now

Lex Fridman 20:13 you are a man who searches for meaning in life, at least... I would say to put another way, you have, um... You think deeply about this world and in a philosophical context, while also appreciating the violence of hurting other, uh, friends of yours, right, on a regular basis.

John Clarke 20:36 Yes.

Lex Fridman 20:36 So what, why, why do you think... I mean, maybe there's a broader question there, but also a personal question. It seems that people who fight for prolonged periods of time, like jujitsu people and martia- mixed martial arts people, even military folks, become over time philosophers. What, what is that? Is that... Is there a parallel between fighting and violence-

John Clarke 21:01 There is.

Lex Fridman 21:02 ... and the philosophical depth with which you now have arri- From, from the starting point of being the full existentialist of like just living in the moment to like being a introspective, uh, human now?

John Clarke 21:14 I would say to that, being a, a soldier or a warrior, uh, hundreds of years ago is probably what started the marriage between martial arts and philosophy. If you're constantly under someone else's charge and you're told to go out and walk in a line and, you know, overtake some Germanic tribe somewhere, and that happens all the time, um, your job is being a soldier. There's... On any given day, you might not come home. So I think that you have to start your day by thinking deeply about how you've lived to that point and the people that are living in and around you and how you've treated them. And I think that probably is what started the marriage of being kind of like a philosophical martial artist. You've got to really, like, uh, on a daily basis take stock of, of what's going on around you and inside you, because we all suffer with this kind of, uh, idea, "If today's my last day, did I do it right?" And we don't really do it so much nowadays because we're so comfortable. But if we were being marched out to war every day, I think you'd see people live a little bit differently. Uh, you know, and you, they... You'd treat the people around you a little bit differently.

Lex Fridman 22:29 Do you think there's, uh, echoes of that in just even the sport of, uh, like grappling and jujitsu where you're facing your own mortality? We don't really think of it that way, but...

John Clarke 22:39 To be honest, I think that a lot of people that train in a martial art in contemporary society, I don't consider them all martial artists. I think just because you train in martial art does not mean you're a martial artist. There are so many people that use martial arts as a form of exercise and like this little piece of, um, self-concept. They use martial arts as a tagline in their Instagram bio.

Lex Fridman 23:04 Mm-hmm.

John Clarke 23:04 And it's really a form of exercise. It's something they do. It's not something they are. And, uh, I think there's a big difference there.

Lex Fridman 23:11 There's a bunch of stuff mixed

Lex Fridman 23:13 up in there because the Instagram thing is something you do for... It's also... It could be something you are for display versus who you are in the private moments of searching and thinking-

John Clarke 23:25 Right.

Lex Fridman 23:26 ...and struggling and all that kind of stuff. Instagram is a surface layer that m- much of modern society, uh, operates in, which is really problematic 'cause there, there is that gap between the person you show to the world and the person you are in private life. And if you make majority of your project, of the human project of your sort of few years on this earth the optimization of the public Instagram profile, then you never develop this private person. But it does seem that if you do jujitsu long enough, it's very difficult not to fall into like this has become a personal journey, an intellectual journey. Because like if you get your ass kicked thousands of times, there's a certain point to where then (laughs) maybe it's like a, a defense mechanism, but that turns into some kind of deeply profound introspective experience versus like exercise.

John Clarke 24:20 That's true.

Lex Fridman 24:20 ... not yoga.

John Clarke 24:22 Yeah. So let me, let me go back first and address the Instagram point, which I think there's a difference between people who, whose Instagram is intrinsically tied to their profession and they have to put a specific profile out there. And I think in general, people who truthfully are t- their business is tied to their Instagram profile, I want to exclude them. I think that most people, Instagram is how they want to be seen. And that's not always congruent with who you are, but I think there is a level of dishonesty there.

Lex Fridman 24:58 Yeah.

John Clarke 24:58 Like, "This is how I want people to see me. I'm going to put all this stuff in my Instagram bio," but that's really not me. And when you do that, um, I think it's... (sighs) it's a little disingenuous and you're right. There's not... you're never really going to marry those two things together, and it gets tough.

Lex Fridman 25:15 Let me, uh... sorry to interrupt. Let me push back on something.

John Clarke 25:18 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 25:18 This is a good time to address, uh, the, the, the many flaws of the great and powerful John Clark. Okay. Uh, le- le- le- let's, let's go there 'cause it's interesting. You strive so hard for excellence in your life and for extreme competence that you are visibly and physically off-put by people who are... who have not achieved competence. Do you think we should be nicer to the people who are... those earl-... like you mentioned, a person who first picks up an art, picks up a... becomes vegan, starts doing CrossFit, started doing jujitsu for the first time and create that as their... you know, they're s- they're struggling through this like, "Who am I?" And they're really overly proud and it's kind of ridiculous. And you and your wise chair have see- seen many battles.

John Clarke 26:15 40 years old.

Lex Fridman 26:15 Yeah. (laughs) That you see the ridiculousness of that. I tend to... I'm learning to give those folks... not to mock them and, and to sort of give them a chance to do their ridiculousness-

John Clarke 26:30 Let me clar-

Lex Fridman 26:30 ... because I think I was that too.

John Clarke 26:32 Let me first clarify. I want to be clear about what you mean when you say a level of competence. Now, I, I, I've never won a world championship. I've never... you know, there are plenty of things in my life where I've not achieved what, um, most people would consider to be the penultimate level of success. Now, when we-

Lex Fridman 26:54 That's accomplishments.

John Clarke 26:56 I- it's accomplishments. It's ribbons, it's things like that. And it's not that those things don't mean anything to me. And the fact that I haven't in some arenas is, uh, is something that I, I want to change, which is... we can talk about that in a second. But I think that there's a difference between the very eager noob of whatever it is they're doing, who does the thing so that they can signal they do the thing. That's the person I have less respect for. So, we know each other primarily through jujitsu.

Lex Fridman 27:29 Mm-hmm.

John Clarke 27:29 Look at a jujitsu tournament. There's this, there's this idea that people espouse online, "I respect anyone with the guts to get on the mat and put it on the line and sign up for a tournament." That is the biggest load of shit I have ever heard.

Lex Fridman 27:47 (laughs) This is great. Okay.

John Clarke 27:48 Do you know... do you know how easy it is for you to put your name on something and pay the registration fee and walk in there? That's not the hard part. That's the easiest part. I don't care if you lose your first match, but I respect the person who signs up for the tournament, registers for the tournament, goes on a diet, loses weight the right way, trains their ass off, and does the things properly, and then goes on the mat. The person who simply signs their name on the registration form and jumps on the mat, if they haven't done these other things, they actually have nothing to lose. Because what they've done is they've stepped onto the mat, in the ring, in the cage with a bucket full of excuses.

Lex Fridman 28:25 Yes.

John Clarke 28:25 Sure, you signed up. But when you... but you... you're not really vulnerable because you didn't run, you didn't do this, you didn't do all the things you were supposed to do. The person who eliminates every possible excuse and then steps on the mat and gets their ass kicked in the first round, I have so much more respect for that person than the person who does nothing and maybe on natural ability wins a couple of matches and then, you know, writes on Facebook on how, "I lost to the eventual champion." That- that- that's worth zero. That's worth zero. And in that process, what did you learn about yourself? You learned about yourself that you've got a, a natural level of aptitude for whatever this activity is that you're doing, but you didn't actually learn how to maximize it through training and through dedication and through all these other things. Uh, I'm, I'm an incredibly interested novice, uh, musician. I love... I like to play bass, but I don't put that on anything. And, you know, I stink at it. I would really love to be sick at it. I'm currently not. But like, I'm not running around, you know, talking about entering, you know, any of those other things. Like I- I do it... it's for myself and I want to... I want to reach a level of competence in that.

Lex Fridman 29:37 So the person that you have respect for is a person who takes it fully seriously, takes, takes the effort fully seriously. So for bass, that would be that you agree with yourself that you're going to perform live and just in your own private moments, your private thoughts, you're not going to give yourself an excuse out like, "I'm just gonna have fun. It's just a nice experience." You're going to-

John Clarke 30:01 Right.

Lex Fridman 30:01 ... you're going to think, "I'm going to try to be the best possible bass player given, given everything that's going on in my life, but I'm going to do my..." like actually-

John Clarke 30:10 Yes.

Lex Fridman 30:10 ... and put it all on the line. "And if I fail that is... that's not because I didn't try, it's because I'm a failure." (laughs)

John Clarke 30:18 Exactly.

Lex Fridman 30:20 (laughs)

John Clarke 30:20 That's a-

Lex Fridman 30:20 And then, and then sit in that sick feeling of like, "I'm a failure."

John Clarke 30:24 But isn't that an important thing to know?

Lex Fridman 30:26 Absolutely.

John Clarke 30:27 I-

Lex Fridman 30:27 But there... there's a... there's a...That's, like, the best thing we could be. But sometimes, it's fun to lose yourself in the, um, in the, in the bragging, in the-

John Clarke 30:40 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 30:40 ... in the lesser ways of life. And I think I'm careful not to, um... Because too many people in my life, when I brought them with, like, a little candle of a fire of a dream, they would just go, like, you know, they would just blow that fire out. Uh, that they would dismiss me 'cause they see, like... You know, I would say, I've said, I've said a lot of ridiculous stuff, but the one, you know, I've always dreamed about, uh, like, putting a, I've always dreamed of having this world full of robots. And, you know, every time I would, uh, bring these ideas up, they'll be shut down by the different people, by my parents, by, you know, uh, you know, "Then you need to first get the, get an education. You need to succeed in these dimensions. In order to do all these things, you have to get good grades. You have to blah, blah, blah, blah, blah." Like, there's all this stuff that it's indirect or direct ways of blowing out that little ridiculous dream that you present. And it's like, you know, I remember sort of bringing up, I don't know, um, things like becoming a state champion in wrestling, right? It's a, it's a weird dance because, of course, the coaches will tell, they'll kind of dismiss that.

John Clarke 32:02 Mm-hmm.

Lex Fridman 32:02 It's like, okay. Okay. Uh, but at the same time, it feels like in those early days, you have to preserve that little, little fire. That's like, Jony Ive, I don't know if you know who that is, is a designer at Apple. He was the chief designer.

John Clarke 32:14 Okay.

Lex Fridman 32:14 He's behind most of the iPhone, all that stuff. And he al- he always talked about that he wouldn't bring his ideas to Steve Jobs until they were matured because he would always shit on them. Uh, he, he would, he wanted them to, like, little, as little babies, like, live for a little bit-

John Clarke 32:30 Mm-hmm.

Lex Fridman 32:30 ... before they get completely shut down. And I always think about that when I see a beginner sort of bragging on Instagram. You have to be careful. Let, let them play with that little dream, you know?

John Clarke 32:41 Are you playing with a little dream that you're nurturing and you're trying to take that little flame and you're trying to create a, a, a roaring blaze with it? Or are you playing with the idea of it and b- behind, behind that, there's no substance?

Lex Fridman 32:54 It's hard to know the difference. That's what I struggle with.

John Clarke 32:56 Is it? I don't think it necessarily is. Certainly, you're wrong. And when I say Instagram, I don't wanna impugn a bunch of strangers. But I have a gym with a lot of members, and, and I can tell you that the number of years I've been in the gym, when someone comes to me and says, "This is my goal," I don't, I don't tell them yes or no, in general. But I know, I can tell by the way they say it to me. I can thin slice it. I've seen the look on people's faces. And when people start to, like, say they want to do X, Y, and Z, I know right off the bat, this person's either gonna put an effort in, or they're not going to put an effort in. So, to me, it's about the effort behind that. If you're busting your ass and you're new at something and you're brand new, but you're working really hard and you have a series of, like, moderate successes in that, like, that's the guy I wanna champion. Because that persistence and that grit over time, those successes will n- no longer be moderate. They'll be huge. But the person who's having moderate success by doing nothing, chances are, they'll never learn to put that work in, and the successes will never grow.

Lex Fridman 33:59 You have an admiration for Mike Tyson.

John Clarke 34:01 I love him.

Lex Fridman 34:03 (laughs) I'm just gonna let that sit for-

John Clarke 34:05 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 34:05 ... a brief moment. Um, why?

John Clarke 34:09 I think there's a combination of factors. One is, like, the timeliness of his career and, like, the age I was when he, like, came to prominence. Um, the raw, brutal violence and the raw, brutal honesty when he speaks. I think it's easy for people to hear him or see his life and cast him aside as some simian-esque, uh, like, just cretin scourge on society. But when you hear him speak, like, this is not a guy who's unintelligent. This is a guy who knows himself better than probably most of us know ourselves. It's disarming, and, uh, you know, that's a humongous part of my admiration for him.

Lex Fridman 34:52 Who is Mike Tyson? Because y- there's, it feels like there's similarities between him and you. There's a, it feels like there's a violent person in there, but also a really kind person. And it, they're all, like, living together in a little house, and you're the same. There's a thoughtful person, but there's also a scary, violent person. And they're, like, having a picnic.

John Clarke 35:14 They're having a picnic. I think there are dialectical tensions in everyone. These, like-

Lex Fridman 35:19 (laughs)

John Clarke 35:19 ... op- opposing forces-

Lex Fridman 35:21 Yeah.

John Clarke 35:21 ... that are constantly pulling at you. And at different points in your life, like, it's a sliding scale. And I think that, uh, certainly, when I was a younger person, that there was a lot more manifestation of the violence and a lot less of the kindness. Um, people who were not as close to me probably saw more of the violent side, and only the very close people to me saw, like, what would pass for the kind side. And now, that's sliding in the other direction. Uh, and I, I worry, actually, sometimes, that there could be a situation where I need that, that old version of me, and he's getting further and further away. And I can't call him up if I need him. And that, that concerns me to a, to a certain degree.

Lex Fridman 36:07 (sighs) The sad, aging warrior seeing his greater-

John Clarke 36:10 (laughs)

Lex Fridman 36:10 ... self fade away. But, but you still compete. Does that, does that person return? It seems like, for Mike Tyson, that person returned at the prospect of competition.

John Clarke 36:20 It returns, but I've learned, I've learned better how to manifest it in competition, in terms of, like, the effects that that type of emotion has on you physically in the middle of a competition. So, I've better learned how to utilize that energy. But-I think another side effect of this is like, having a gym where you're a bigger guy and you're the head instructor, you can't be as mean and violent as you once were because you're also now trying to run a business. And you spend so long, so many, so many years trying not to be mean and to, you know, soften your, your technique a little bit, that that all of a sudden just becomes who you are. And, and I don't necessarily like that. So I've been trying to reclaim that a little bit, uh, on the mat. But I think in competition, there's, there has to be... An athlete really wants to score the points. A fighter really wants to incapacitate you and put you in a position where they can do their own bidding. And the result in a jujitsu match might just still be two points, but the motivations are very, very different.

Lex Fridman 37:28 What do you make of, uh, Tyson on Joe Rogan saying that he was aroused by violence? Do you think that's insane? Do you think that's deeply honest for him? And do you think that rings true for many of us others who practices in different degrees?

John Clarke 37:43 I don't, I can't speak for a lot of people and I think that it's, was a brutally honest statement by him, and I think it's something that even if a lot of people feel it, they're not that comfortable admitting it or saying it.

Lex Fridman 37:55 Yeah.

John Clarke 37:55 But I think, like, there's, there's great joy in, like, landing a flush right hand on someone's jaw and then watching them crumble. You don't even feel it. Did you ever play baseball as a kid? You can hit a base hit off the end of a bat and it will sting your hands because of the way that you hit it. You can hit a home run and you won't feel anything and it'll just feel so good in your hands. And that's, I think, the, like, one of the, the joys of, uh, physical contact. When you do it the right way, and that goes for all physical contact, when you do it the right way, the physical pleasure you can derive from it and the mental pleasure, it's, uh, it's unparalleled.

Lex Fridman 38:38 See, but that's different. Let me, let me draw a distinction. I'm not...

Lex Fridman 38:44 I've had the fortune of being a wrestler. And I would draw a distinction between a very well executed, in competition double leg, single leg take down, or a pin. There's some, as an OCD person, there is something so comforting about a well executed pin because it's like two seconds and it's just like everything is flushed and nice and, uh, like it's all clean. I, I mean, okay, there's this OCD person who likes to align sh- stuff. It's just beautiful. Okay, that's good technique. Wrestling also provides you, maybe more than other sports, the feeling of dominating another human.

John Clarke 39:25 Yes.

Lex Fridman 39:26 Of breaking... No. Not just of them being very cocky and very powerful, you feel this power of another human being, and then you breaking them.

John Clarke 39:37 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 39:37 And like, I'm not as honest as Mike Tyson. (laughs)

John Clarke 39:42 Well-

Lex Fridman 39:42 But that's, that, uh, uh... I don't think I've ever sort of looked in the mirror and said, like, that that was in, I enjoyed that aspect of it, but it certainly seems like you chase that.

John Clarke 39:56 So, when I was a wrestler in high school, um, I lost so many matches because of over aggressiveness. Um, like, you know, I would pick the top position and let you stand just so that I could do a mat return. And I wasn't trying to return you to the mat, I was actually trying to, like, drive you through the mat and through the ground. Like, I took, like I, I... It gave me joy to do that.

Lex Fridman 40:20 Yeah.

John Clarke 40:20 Like, it wasn't like I was trying to, you know, just return you to the mat so that I could pin you. That, what you just talked about, like the, the dominating another person, I used to look at that as you've got someone who in theory is equally trained and equally skilled as you are, and you're, you're absolutely out there totally dominating them. There's joy in that. You could get in an MMA fight and you could take someone down and you could mount them, and all that feels great, but when you start raining down the punches on their face from mount and, like, dropping elbows and stuff, like, there's another level of satisfaction there. And it's, it, it's tough to describe. And I don't think that it's, everyone, uh, is made for it. When I was a, I think when I was a senior in high school, my wrestling coach said, "Look, you've got to stop with all this crazy aggressive wrestling." Like, they, they tried to turn me into a technician. And, and, and it, and it, and it did work to a degree, and it was a humongous shift for me in terms of success, but it wasn't the same level of enjoyment out of it. Um, like, I mean, I got disqualified from New England's 'cause my coach said, "Cross face." And I cross faced and he said, "Harder." And I basically wound up and blasted a kid in the face and his nose got, you know, busted everywhere. But I didn't think not to do it because that felt good. It felt good to cross face him like that. That was, that was a lot of like...

Lex Fridman 41:42 Well, that, that's a weird American warrior ethos that I've picked up. But I also have in me the, the Russian, the Sitiyeh brothers that don't see it, don't see it as that. They, they don't get draw... They think that there is a tension between the art of the martial art and the violence of the martial art. It's-

John Clarke 42:04 I agree with that.

Lex Fridman 42:04 It's a poetic way I could put it. But they're not so fascinated with this Dan Gable dominating another human. They think of the effortlessness, the effortlessness of the technique, and your mastery of the art is exhibited in its effortlessness, how much you lose yourself in the moment and the timing, the, just the beauty of a timing. Like, there's much more, like, one example in judo, but also in wrestling, you can look at the foot sweep. Uh, wrestlers, in, in America, and even judo players in America and much of the world, don't admire the beauty of the foot sweep. But a well timed foot sweep, which is a way to sort of off balance and find the right timing to just effortlessly, uh, sh-... change the tab-, turn the tables of, uh, I mean, dominate your opponent is, is seen as the highest form of mastery in, in Russian wrestling, in, in the case of judo, it's in Japanese judo. It's interesting. I'm not sure, I'm not sure what, what that tension is about. I think it actually takes me back to, I don't know if you listen to, uh, Dan Carlin, Hardcore History, and Genghis Khan, if you've ever, uh-

John Clarke 43:17 I read a great, great book.

Lex Fridman 43:19 On Genghis Khan?

John Clarke 43:20 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 43:21 I'm, I'm still, I'm still trying to adjust. I've, most of my life said Genghis Khan, but, uh, the right pronunciation is, uh, actually Chengehz Khan. There's a tension there. We kind of think, I don't know we, I kind of thought as Genghis Khan is a ultra-violent, a leader of ultra-violent men. But another view, another way to see them is the people who, warriors that valued extreme competence and mastery of the art of, uh, fighting with weapons, with bows, with, uh, horse riding, all that kind of stuff. And I'm not sure exactly where to place them on my sort of thinking about violence in, in our human history.

John Clarke 44:12 I think in the context of like combat sports, I think there's a difference between an athlete winning a contest under a certain set of rules and a fighter winning a fight under those exact same rules. There's a different approach to it. (clears throat) And I don't think one is any better than the other. Um, like in MMA, I think a great example would be George St-Pierre. George St-Pierre is a tremendous, is a tremendous athlete, and he considers himself to be a martial artist first. He's trying to win an athletic competition. Like, Nick Diaz is trying to bust your ass.

Lex Fridman 44:48 Yeah.

John Clarke 44:49 Right? There's a different approach to it. And yes, they've had different results at the highest level of competition, but it's difficult to attribute the difference in results just to their approach to the sport, because they're different human beings with different abilities and different, different, uh, physical attributes. Um, the Saitiev brothers have that luxury of being able to talk about the beauty of a, a perfectly timed slide by.

Lex Fridman 45:13 Mm-hmm.

John Clarke 45:13 Right? There are other wrestlers that will never be able to pull that off, and therefore they have to pursue other ways to, to defeat someone. And maybe it is the Dan Gable breaking a man's spirit by outworking him type thing, which is beautiful in its own way. Uh, but we, we, we tend to self-select the ways in which we're able to be successful, and then kind of take a deep dive into that.

Lex Fridman 45:37 What do you think is more beautiful, brute force or effortless execution of a technique that dominates another human?

John Clarke 45:49 I think it's a subjective thing based on what skills you perceive yourself to have. I'm never, I've never been a slick, uh, super athletic, dexterous competitor in anything. And I've always been more of an I've, I've got to outwork you, I've got to out-grind you, I've got to out-mean you. And so because I've lived that, I tend to see the beauty in that more, because I have a perceptual awareness that I don't have for the people who have the luxury of being very slick and athletic and, and, and using beautiful technique. Now that said, there was a phenomenal little video the other day I sent to a friend (clears throat) of a compilation of foot sweeps by Lyoto Machida in MMA.

Lex Fridman 46:32 Oh.

John Clarke 46:32 And they're so beautiful and they're so awesome. And it's not that I don't have an appreciation for those, but I can't emulate those, because I lack the physical ability to do that, whereas I- I at least have a chance to emulate some of the people who do it through grit and through outworking people.

Lex Fridman 46:51 But I would love to, uh, return to Genghis Khan and get your thoughts about like... I have so many mixed feelings about whether he is evil or not, whether the violence that he brought to the world had ultimately... The fact that it had maybe kind of, uh, like Dan Carlin describes, cleansed the landscape. It's like a reset for the world through violence, had ultimately a progressive effect on, on human civilization, even though in the short term it led to massive, you could say, suffering. I don't know what to make of that man. What, uh, what are your thoughts on Genghis Khan?

John Clarke 47:40 Um, I think it's always difficult to look at a historical figure and their actions of their time through a modern day lens, because it's very diff- It's easy for us to, um, kind of, you know, impugn their achievements and the things that they did and say, "Oh, well, you know, what he did was wrong." Well, of course that can be true, but a lot of times we don't actually have any real good context or concept of the, the times they were living in and what really was deemed wrong and what really wasn't. We're looking at it through a very cushy modern lens. That being said, from what I've read about Genghis Khan, uh, yeah, he was a violent dude, but also he gave you an option.

Lex Fridman 48:22 Right.

John Clarke 48:22 He, when he, when he got to a village, he said, "Look, I'm gonna, I'm, we're gonna... You have a choice. You can come with us or you can run." And, you know, he gave them an option to join, uh, his legion of fighters, who he took very good care of. You know, he was the, the first military leader, uh, to pay his soldiers' families when they died, and he did that based on the, the booty that they got when they raided a village.

Lex Fridman 48:51 Mm-hmm.

John Clarke 48:51 He took that money, he took his share, and he divided that up amongst the soldiers and then the soldiers' families. I think he also is credited with, uh...... first, like, horseback mail routes or something like that, right? Isn't he the godfather of the modern postal system?

Lex Fridman 49:06 (laughs)

John Clarke 49:06 Or something, something like that.

Lex Fridman 49:08 He's, yeah, he's, he's the Bernie Sanders of the, uh-

John Clarke 49:10 (Laughs) Yeah.

Lex Fridman 49:12 ... (laughs) of the Mongol Empire. I do think the, the offering of surrender is an interesting one 'cause, um, it's interesting, like, as a thought experiment, whether you would sacrifice your way of life, like the pride of nations or the, the nationalism, pride of your country, whether you're willing to give that up, (sighs) uh, for- for, uh, you know, to survive.

John Clarke 49:38 It depends on who depends on you. If you have a- if you have a family and, like, young kids and stuff like that, I think your, your obligation is primarily to them. And therefore surrender has to be something that you consider in that- in that moment in time, so that you can, uh, take care of those people. If you're a man alone and you've got, like, all these principles and all this other stuff and you just don't... You- you're not down with what Genghis Khan is doing and what he's selling, yeah, try and escape. Do your thing and just know that, you know, what waits on the other side of that for you potentially. But I think if there's someone else out there that depends on you, your obligation should be to them.

Lex Fridman 50:13 It feels like historically people valued principles more than life. In- in this weight of, like, "What do I value more? The principles I hold versus survival?" It seems that now we don't value principles as much. Your principles could be also religion, it could be your v- values, whatever. We're okay sort of sacrificing those y- for- to preserve our survival, and that applies in all forms, like actual survival or, like,-

John Clarke 50:43 Mm-hmm.

Lex Fridman 50:43 ... (laughs) on- on social media, like preserving your reputation, all those kinds of things. Uh, it seems like we, v- and especially in America, value individual li- life, that death is somehow a really bad thing, as opposed to saying, "Sacrificing your principles is a very bad thing and everybody dies and it's okay to die." As the what's horrible is to sacrifice your principles of who you are just to live another day.

John Clarke 51:15 I think a big problem is people don't really even know what their principles are anymore.

Lex Fridman 51:19 Right.

John Clarke 51:19 People, you know, um, social media and just the way that we live nowadays where we're separated from the human contact like this, like, we're not... You're not contacting people in a community anymore. You're not, w- whether you're religious or not, like, you're not- you're not congregating at a church. You're not part of a parish like you would be, like, in, you know, down south. You're not part of that community anymore. And so it's difficult to figure out what your principles and values are because you're constantly jumping from one bucket to the next o- online. And you don't get a lot of, like, direct, like, reasonable feedback from people. You just get dipshit feedback like, "Oh, you don't believe this? Well, you're a jerk."

Lex Fridman 52:05 I think the hard thing currently is having the integrity and character to stick by your principles when under... I don't wanna equate murder of in the Genghis Khan times to, uh, social media cancel culture, but it certainly doesn't feel good when people are attacking you on social media.

John Clarke 52:22 No.

Lex Fridman 52:22 And it does take a lot of integrity to, uh, without anger, without emotion, without- without being, uh, without mocking others or attacking others unfairly, standing by the ideas you hold, or in another way, uh, standing by your friends, standing by this little group, like loyalty of the people that you know are good people. I find that, uh, in- in cancel culture, one of the sad things is whenever somebody gets, quote unquote, "Canceled," everybody just gets... All their friends become really quiet and don't defend them. Or worse, I mean, quiet is at least understandable. They kind of signal that... They throw them under the bus, I guess, uh, is one way to put it. And that- that's something I think about a lot because from, coming from me, it's like, I- I ha- I hold an ethic. I don't know if others hold this ethic. Maybe it's this, like, Russian, uh, mobster ethic of like, you should help your friends bury the body. You shouldn't criticize your friends for committing the murder.

John Clarke 53:37 Right.

Lex Fridman 53:37 Like, there are certain levels of like, you know... Yeah. You- you have that discussion after you bury the body that, like,-

John Clarke 53:44 Right.

Lex Fridman 53:44 ... "Maybe you shouldn't have done that murder thing."

John Clarke 53:46 Right.

Lex Fridman 53:47 Uh, I don't know. You know, I understand that that's a problematic, um, what's- (laughs) what's the terminology? (laughs) That's a problematic ethical framework within which to operate. But at the same time, it feels like, what else do we have in this world except the brotherhood, the sisterhood, the love we have for a very small community? But perhaps that's the wrong way of thinking. Perhaps the 21st century will be defined, uh, by the dissipation of this community, of this loyalty concept.

John Clarke 54:14 No,-

Lex Fridman 54:15 And we're all just individuals.

John Clarke 54:16 ... I think you're right. And I think you have to have some sort of core framework of principles and beliefs that you operate on. And I think when I was... What I was referencing is a little bit different and... But to speak to your point, you- you need a framework, um, of core principles on which you can then base a lot of your other decisions. Like, "I believe these three things to be true," whatever they are. And that will help inform other decisions you make in your life. (clears throat) As far as how you treat your friends, I've got- I've got probably three friends that if they called me right now and said, "Let's bury the body." "Sorry, Lex, I gotta go." There are other people in my life that if they said, uh, "Hey, we've gotta go bury the body." I would say, "Who is this?"

Lex Fridman 55:04 (laughs)

John Clarke 55:05 You know?

Lex Fridman 55:06 Yeah.

John Clarke 55:06 So, I think it, it, it depends on the relationship.

Lex Fridman 55:10 I wonder, that's a good r- that's a really good measure. I would love to have... I would love that to be in your profile. People put like pronouns. I would love to put like, hon- honestly, like objectively, not self-report, but objective, how many people in your life, if they committed murder, you would not ask any questions and you would help them h- hide the body.

John Clarke 55:31 Right.

Lex Fridman 55:31 Like, I would love to know that number for people.

John Clarke 55:34 Yeah. And, and I think it's a weird thing too, because you think right away, like, "Okay, it must be the group of people that are the closest to you."

Lex Fridman 55:39 Right.

John Clarke 55:40 That's who you're first thinking of, right? But obviously, for like my best friend, I would do it, no question about it. But I've got other people that are close to me that are close to me in other ways-

Lex Fridman 55:50 Yeah.

John Clarke 55:50 ... and I probably wouldn't do that only because I don't think they'd do it for me.

Lex Fridman 55:54 Yeah.

John Clarke 55:54 And, and that is a consideration. Um, so I guess, is the principle there then that you do for your friends what you think they would do for you? Is that the underlying principle? Or do you just have a blind loyalty to, you know, people in your life for different reasons? I got people that are not on my inner circle that I probably wouldn't help change a tire at 2:00 in the morning if they were on the highway. But if they called me and said, "Hey, we gotta bury the body," I might show up for that.

Lex Fridman 56:20 Yeah.

John Clarke 56:20 It's just these weird different connections you have with people.

Lex Fridman 56:22 Yeah, it's fascinating. Yeah, I have, uh, close, close friends that like, I'd probably be... Exactly, the tire's a good example. I'd be like, "Can't you find somebody else to do this?"

John Clarke 56:30 Right.

Lex Fridman 56:31 I think part of that is just this leap of faith into... Like, giving yourself to the other person that, uh, creates a deep connection that makes life fulfilling, like meaningful, that doesn't exist if you don't take that leap. I mean, it's not about the murder. We're sort of focusing... I think that's a... I, I think you have to, uh, what is it? Uh, cross that bridge when you get there. I'm not exactly sure. This is just a thought experiment.

John Clarke 57:01 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 57:01 But it's, it's... I- I think about that a lot, especially these COVID times. And as like people become more and more isolated and separated from each other, like how important is it to have those deep, deep connections to other humans?

John Clarke 57:16 I think especially, like what you're talking about there, have you ever seen the movie The Town? There's a great line in the movie where one of the main characters walks into his friend's house and he says, "I need your help. We're going to go hurt some people and you can never ask me about it again." And the friend looks up and he says, "Whose car are we taking?"

Lex Fridman 57:35 (laughs)

John Clarke 57:35 Like that-

Lex Fridman 57:36 Yeah.

John Clarke 57:36 ... that is the type of person you need in your life. And the people, like there are people that will walk through that door and say that to you and you drop everything you're doing. And then there's the people that walk through your door and you're like, "You know what? I got a Hot Pocket in the microwave."

Lex Fridman 57:47 (laughs)

John Clarke 57:48 "I'm a little bit, I'm a little bit tied up right now, but I'd love to help you out, but-"

Lex Fridman 57:52 Yeah.

John Clarke 57:52 "... you know, I don't wanna do that." And you don't have that, that deep connection with those people.

Lex Fridman 57:57 You mentioned, uh, some principles that you've, uh, changed your mind on. Is there... Do you want to go there? Is there some interesting principles and the process of changing that, uh, is useful to talk about?

John Clarke 58:12 I can't really cite a specific thing except that understanding that the principles that you have at different points in your life can change and it's okay to change them without being a total pussy and being bullied by other people into thinking what you thought was wrong.

Lex Fridman 58:27 Right.

John Clarke 58:27 If you come to these conclusions of your own volition and you decide to change them, that's great. And it, and it can be really... It can be really liberating. It's really liberating to have an idea that you hold so true to your, your core belief system and then to actually have someone change your mind for you and be okay with it as opposed to being like, "No, I gotta die with this. I gotta die with this." It's really liberating. There are definitely ideas you wanna die on that hill and no one's ever gonna change your mind. But it's really liberating to be confident enough to say, "Change my mind." I'm lucky enough to have some smart motherfuckers around me who can tell me, "Listen, you're being a total dipshit. Like, let's, let's rethink this." Or like, I have one friend who does the five whys all the time and he loves backing me into a corner. And-

Lex Fridman 59:17 What's the five whys?

John Clarke 59:19 You just, like when someone makes a statement about something-

Lex Fridman 59:21 Mm-hmm.

John Clarke 59:22 ... to really get to the core issue, they say if you ask why five times-

Lex Fridman 59:26 Mm-hmm.

John Clarke 59:27 ... make a statement, "Well, why is that?" And you answer that, "Well, why?" And you phrase the whys differently obviously, but then you get to the core. They say five times you can get to the core of the issue. And uh, that's a challenging thing. But I find later in life it's so liberating for me to be confident enough to be like, "Man, was I fucking way off the mark on this."

Lex Fridman 59:46 Yeah.

John Clarke 59:46 And have my mind changed.

Lex Fridman 59:48 And be able to say that to others that, "I was wrong."

John Clarke 59:50 Totally. That, that ability... And I, I never used to have that and it's... It feels real good.

Lex Fridman 59:58 And there's a hunger for that too. Um, yeah, you're so right actually. On a personal level, it feels very good. Exactly as you said, it's liberating because you're free to then think as opposed to-

John Clarke 1:00:10 Defend.

Lex Fridman 1:00:11 Yeah. Uh, without thinking.

John Clarke 1:00:14 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 1:00:14 It's-

John Clarke 1:00:14 You get so sick of defending the same thing over and over and over, and you start to think about it and it's like, "Well, I, I would really like to evolve my thought process here." And when you're constantly defending, you know, one point, it- it's difficult to let other ideas in. You, you, you discount the possibility that you can have your mind changed when you're constantly on the defense. You have to have a crack in, in the front line in order to let a new idea come in and possibly flourish. And maybe the new idea doesn't even prove your current belief system to be wrong, but maybe it's like the, the water to a seed and it grows and now it's something even bigger and better.

Lex Fridman 1:00:54 Yeah.

John Clarke 1:00:54 And you can, you can start to work with that instead. And it's a, it's a tough thing because I'm a stubborn fuck and it's very difficult for me, it was historically, to say, "I was wrong about this one." Or, "I messed this one up." Or, "I wish I could have that one back."

Lex Fridman 1:01:09 There's a public figure for me thing too, which there is, there's a difference between changing your mind with a small circle of friends and changing your mind publicly-

John Clarke 1:01:19 Mm-hmm.

Lex Fridman 1:01:19 ... about something. But it has equal... It, uh, one echoes the other. It, it is equally liberating. But people, um, people not make that change easy. Uh, but it doesn't matter. That's the, that's the point. It doesn't... I think it's ultimately liberating as a human being, public figure or not, to, uh, to think deeply about this world and, uh, to keep changing. Which is like, I, I think there's a deep hunger for that in like political discourse, that people are so tribal currently about politics that they want to see somebody who says, "You know what? I changed my mind on this."

John Clarke 1:02:00 Right.

Lex Fridman 1:02:00 And, and then keep changing their mind and keep asking question, keep showing that they're open-minded, all that kind of stuff.

John Clarke 1:02:06 But when you want someone in a position of political power to change their mind because they realize that there might be a better way, not because they realize that by changing their mind, they're gonna get a new demographic to vote for them.

Lex Fridman 1:02:18 Okay.

John Clarke 1:02:18 Like that's transparent as shit. Nobody wants to see that.

Lex Fridman 1:02:20 Right.

John Clarke 1:02:21 Like that's-

Lex Fridman 1:02:21 Right.

John Clarke 1:02:22 ... that's a person who can't separate the- their, their position from their people they're supposed to be helping.

Lex Fridman 1:02:27 Yeah. And you can usually smell that. That's, uh, we were just talking, uh, offline about, uh,

Lex Fridman 1:02:34 there's something about Hillary Clinton where she talked about changing her mind on gay marriage.

John Clarke 1:02:40 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 1:02:40 That it felt like this is a political calculation versus like really deeply thinking about like what, you know, what things do we do in this world that violate basic human rights? Like, really thinking about it deeply. And, you know, of course politicians are calculating. There's... But you can see it. You... That's the thing. That's why I like, um... As on the human level, there's like political policies, but there's also humans. And I've always liked Bernie Sanders, for example. I don't know, not the later perhaps Bernie Sanders, but I used to listen to him back in the day. And there were, it felt, and people might disagree with me, but it, it felt like there was a real human struggling with ideas. Whatever... Agree with him or not, it felt like he wasn't doing political calculation. He was just a human.

John Clarke 1:03:28 He couldn't be further away from my poli- political ideals. But also like there's an obvious authenticity to his passion for what he's saying that is not present in other candidates. And you could see it, all these people that have been in politics forever, like from all the way back when Hillary was a lawyer in the '70s. There's a couple of shots of her in a courtroom in the '70s, though. She's look- she's looking all right. She's got those big glasses on.

Lex Fridman 1:03:54 Yeah.

John Clarke 1:03:54 She's kind of a little bit of a nerdy babe back in the day.

Lex Fridman 1:03:57 (laughs) Oh, you mean like... (laughs)

John Clarke 1:04:00 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 1:04:00 Well, John Clark says that Hillary Clinton was a babe back in the day.

John Clarke 1:04:04 73 Hinton (sic) , Clinton, yeah.

Lex Fridman 1:04:05 (laughs) Uh, you, that's an interesting question about authenticity and politicians. Do you think like, uh, Hillary Clinton, just the Clintons in general are a good example that, why do you think they become over time so inauthentic? Is it the system that changes them? Is it their own hunger for power? Is it, uh, what is it? Or they, or were they always inauthentic?

John Clarke 1:04:29 Well, first, I'd like to say that, I don't know if you know this, but I come from a, a bit of a political dynasty myself. Uh, I was on the student government several times in high school, and my dad won, um, the run-off in a special election in Bradenton Beach, Florida. I think there's like 700 people there. So, we're-

Lex Fridman 1:04:48 So, your dad got you the job?

John Clarke 1:04:49 Yeah. We're basically... A lot of people compare us to the Kennedys. My guess with the politicians is that, and you can, you can see it now as we're becoming more like cognizant as people to the political process, I think the process corrupts people. And I think that... I don't know the ins and outs of it, I've listened to people who are far more educated on it than me, and I'm unprepared to cite any of their points. I think you can see it a little bit in Dan Crenshaw. Can I say this?

Lex Fridman 1:05:17 Yeah.

John Clarke 1:05:18 So-

Lex Fridman 1:05:18 I like him.

John Clarke 1:05:19 (clears throat) I, I really liked Dan, especially like a year, year and a half ago. He seemed very level-headed. It's clear to me now that as he panders more and more to the right, it's because he's setting himself up for, for a presidential run. It's clear that that's happening. And he just doesn't seem like the same authentic ideals-oriented guy that he did a year and a half ago. Now, I could be wrong on that and could be way off. But I think that you can take someone as honest as you want to. When you start them on that path to the presidency, you become so unbelievably beholden to so many people and entities along the way that by the time you get to the, the final destination, the Oval Office, all you're doing is paying back the favors that got you there, and you never get to serve the people you're supposed to serve.

Lex Fridman 1:06:09 Yeah.

John Clarke 1:06:09 Your, your primary focus is on your office and not on the people that you're supposed to be helping. I think that that's a humongous problem, and like we could talk all about campaign finance reform and the two-party system. But at the end of the day, the people who are running for political posts, they're working to keep a job. They're not working to improve the lives of the constituents, which is different. You know, a long, long time ago, like, a lot of politicians, like those were like part-time jobs.

Lex Fridman 1:06:37 Mm-hmm.

John Clarke 1:06:38 You know, and they were... They held other posts and, you know, out west, they were ranchers by day and sheriff by night, whatever the case might be. But now, you have such a cushy path for the rest of your life that the goal is to just be a politician-

Lex Fridman 1:06:50 Yeah.

John Clarke 1:06:51 ... not do the things that you think a politician is supposed to do.

Lex Fridman 1:06:54 Right.

John Clarke 1:06:54 And that's a problem.

Lex Fridman 1:06:55 By the way, I'll talk to Dan on this podcast. It's funny, I, I like the version of him from a year ago, and I haven't been really paying attention. So, I'll be, I'll actually pay more attention now and ask him that exact question. Like, how do you prevent yourself from changing-

John Clarke 1:07:11 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 1:07:11 ... be- becoming what the, the Clintons became. I, I tend to believe like there's conspiratorial stuff about Clintons and all these politicians. I tend to believe that they were actually good, thoughtful people back in the day.

John Clarke 1:07:21 At some point.

Lex Fridman 1:07:22 And the, and the system changes them. On the... It's not even the system.There's something about just the process of campaigning. I just think it wears you down to where if you look at the percentage of time you spend on the kinds of conversations you have, it's like, one, you do these speeches which you repeat the same thing over and over and over. It beats the, uh, the process of thinking. You just exhaust your brain to where you're not thinking anymore, you're just repeating. It's very-

John Clarke 1:07:51 Right.

Lex Fridman 1:07:52 ... it's exceptionally difficult to keep making speech after speech after speech, saying the same thing over and over and over again, and at the same time, thinking deeply and changing your mind and learning. And then also the pandering to financial, like having phone calls, like fundraising, all those kinds of things.

John Clarke 1:08:11 That's what they do now. They spend most of their time fundraising.

Lex Fridman 1:08:13 Yeah.

John Clarke 1:08:13 They're not worried about anything. Uh, sorry to interrupt you, but I was going to say that you can see there's a fuel. Like the- the more attention and the higher regard you're held in in your community and the more sycophants, like, continue to blow smoke up your ass, the more it changes the way you present yourself. And you can see it in- in every walk of life. I mean, jiu-jitsu is a tiny, tiny little section of the world, but you see it in the jiu-jitsu community when someone all of a sudden starts a social media page or whatever and they get a bunch of people, like, basically, like, you know, cyber-fellating them on their Instagram page, they- they- they change.

Lex Fridman 1:08:51 (laughs) Fellating, is that a word?

John Clarke 1:08:52 I think so.

Lex Fridman 1:08:53 So giving fellatio?

John Clarke 1:08:54 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 1:08:55 So fellating.

John Clarke 1:08:56 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 1:08:57 Jamie, look it up.

John Clarke 1:08:59 (laughs) I think... But... And those people, they- they-

Lex Fridman 1:09:01 Fellating.

John Clarke 1:09:01 It changes their character.

Lex Fridman 1:09:03 Yeah.

John Clarke 1:09:03 It changes who they are, because they become emboldened and- and, you know, now they've got this, like, mythical cyber mob behind them.

Lex Fridman 1:09:11 There's a sign at the entrance to your gym that reads, "For every moment of triumph..." It's a quote by Hunter S. Thompson. It reads, "For every moment of triumph, for every instance of beauty, many souls must be trampled." What does this quote mean to you?

John Clarke 1:09:30 That quote, to me, is about, m- mostly about sacrifice. And it's about to achieve anything great or anything beautiful or to triumph, you have to have sacrificed so many things to get there unless you're the most unbelievably genetically gifted person in the world and greatness is just, you know, falls upon you. It's just raining from the sky. I think (sighs) on your path to greatness, on your path to success and triumph, you leave a lot of carnage in your wake. Personal relationships, other goals, things that you didn't pursue, um, you know, other unfulfilled dreams. And you kind of have to sell a lot of that out in order to be really the- the... at the- the peak of your field or- or what you want to be. Um, I know that that's happened in my life. I mean, there's tons and tons of relationships that, you know, couldn't survive the way that I was living my life because when I was trying to be a- a big time fighter or like when I was just training all the time, tons of relationships, uh, dissolved themselves naturally, some not so naturally. Uh, some people get it, some people don't get it. Some people hate you. Um, you miss tons of other opportunities. And I think that's kind of what that quote means to me. It's a- it's about sacrifice. It's about you're giving up what you want now for what you want more.

Lex Fridman 1:11:01 And it's the- the trampling of souls, it's messy too, 'cause it's not clear what- what the right path is. Like, that sacrifice is not obvious that, um, that those are the right sacrifices to make. You might be- you might be ruining your own life. But the- the fact that you're willing to take that risk and, uh, sort of go all in on the... whether it's stupid or not, to go all in on something, that... the possi- the- the possibility of creating something beautiful is there.

John Clarke 1:11:36 Who says it's stupid? If you're going all in on it, you don't think it's stupid. Someone else might think it's stupid. But, I mean, who really cares?

Lex Fridman 1:11:44 Well, I'm of many minds on many things. So I feel like there's certain minds, certain moods of the day where you think it's stupid. Like relationships is a beautiful one,

Lex Fridman 1:11:54 which is... Uh, you've seen the movie Whiplash by any chance?

John Clarke 1:11:57 Yes.

Lex Fridman 1:11:59 It seems like in a man's life, or it could be a woman's, but I'm... I don't identify as a woman, so I know the man, the- the lived ex-

John Clarke 1:12:08 You could, though. It's 2020, bro.

Lex Fridman 1:12:10 But my lived experience for now is that of a man. We'll see about tomorrow. And there is... In the pursuit of excellence, there's often a choice of, um... Some of the souls that must be trampled are personal relationships with humans in your life that you might deeply care about. It could be family, it could be friends, it could be loved ones of all different forms. It could be the people that... your colleagues that, uh, depended on you, people who will lose jobs because of the decisions you make, all those kind of stuff. It seems that that moment happens, and I'm not sure that sacrifice is always the correct one. Like, to me, the movie Whiplash, for people who haven't seen, spoiler alert maybe? I don't- I don't even know if that movie has any spoilers, but there is a relationship with a female. There's a student that's a drummer that's pursuing excellence of this particular art form of drumming, and he has a brief fleeting relationship with a female, and he also has an instructor that's pushing him to his limits in what appears to be awfully a lot like a toxic relationship. And he chooses... not chooses, he naturally makes the decision......to sacrifice the romantic relationship with the woman in, in further pursuit of this chaos of, this chaotic pursuit of excellence. And it feel, that doesn't feel like, um, deliberate decision. It feels like a giant mess of, like, an emotional mess where you're just, like, kind of like a fish swimming against stream, just like, "Fuck it." You let go of all the things that convention says you should appreciate. You, you throw away the possibility of a stable life, of a comfortable life, of a, a, what society says is a meaningful life, and just pursue this crazy thing full of toxi- se- seeming toxicity with crazy people surrounding you. I don't know. So I don't know what the right decision is. Like, part of my brain says, "You should stay with the girl. Uh, fuck that instructor that's making you, uh, that's pushing you to, to places where it's like, that are destructive, potentially destructive, like could lead to suicide, could lead you to, uh, completely, uh, uh, (sighs) fail or fail on your pursuit of excellence or destroy the possib- d- d- destroy the dream, the passionate pursuit of the thing that y- you've always dreamed for, in that case is drumming." I don't know. I'm on many minds there, like what is the right thing to do.

John Clarke 1:14:54 So my first two thoughts are, number one, fuck convention. What is convention? It's like a, some laid out plaths- path, some linear progression of the way your life is supposed to go, like, you know, that someone can draw a picture of at the end. That shit's, that... First of all, that shit's boring and whatever. And it's, it's... I don't want to say that it's cowardly because it isn't cowardly, but for someone who's not conventional, to not be non-conventional is cowardly, to get sucked into the convention. That's first. Second of all, I believe that scene in the diner in that movie where he tells her-

Lex Fridman 1:15:29 Yeah.

John Clarke 1:15:29 ... "You're in my way because (clears throat) I'm going to want to be with you, or you're going to want me to be going out to dinner with you. And I know I should be practicing, or I know I should be training. And then ultimately, I'm gonna make, I'm either gonna feel bad about not being with you by training, or I'm gonna skip the training to be with you. And neither one is right." The whole thing that they don't mention in that is that that's the wrong girl. That's the wrong girl. The right girl is a gangster. The right girl says, "Oh, you ha- you have, you have practice tonight? I- I'll leave you a sandwich and some milk so that you can, you know, uh, outside the door-"

Lex Fridman 1:16:04 Yeah. (laughs)

John Clarke 1:16:04 "...uh, let me know when you're done-"

Lex Fridman 1:16:05 It's perfect. Yeah.

John Clarke 1:16:06 "...or you have some, like, free time." Like, the right girl compliments that. She's not an impediment in any way. Even if what you want to do is be with her so much that you're putting the drums down, or you're putting the bass down, or you're picking up the pizza, or you're not going to training. Like, that girl, without even telling you why she's making decisions, is making decisions to help you achieve your goal. Now, that might sound like some sort of like chauvinistic king of the castle type shit, like where everyone should cater to you. But the fact of the matter is, uh, that person is a compliment to your life and helping you do your thing. And in your own way, you're helping them to achieve whatever their goals are also. It's uncommon that you have two people under the same roof striving to be unbelievably excellent in one small area. It's not impossible, but it's uncommon. Like, relationships have to be like binary systems, like two stars. Like, the gravitational pull is what keeps you together and circling around one another, right? And, and, you know, one is bigger than the other, and they'll fluctuate, and, you know, the stars will get bigger, and they'll get smaller, and they'll contract based on positioning and, you know, composition. That, that's the way a relationship should be, not an asteroid coming in to disrupt, you know, your, the, the surface of your planet.

Lex Fridman 1:17:26 Yeah.

John Clarke 1:17:27 It's a binary system. It's a compliment. That girl was the wrong girl for him.

Lex Fridman 1:17:30 So you shouldn't, uh, like the big unconventional dreams should not be adjusted to fit into this world. 'Cause I, I mean, there is a part of me that's like full and says, "Ah, well, maybe you're just a dick." May- maybe...

John Clarke 1:17:46 Yeah, who cares?

Lex Fridman 1:17:48 (laughs)

John Clarke 1:17:48 Look, so first of all, (laughs) who cares?

Lex Fridman 1:17:52 This is, uh, by the, by the way, somebody who's, uh, you have, uh, you have recently gotten, well, recently, in, in the span of the history of the universe is recently you've gotten into a relationship, but you haven't always... You have not felt the need to be in the relationship just because you're supposed to by society's kind of-

John Clarke 1:18:12 Correct.

Lex Fridman 1:18:12 ...momentum.

John Clarke 1:18:13 If you, I think that if you really want anything, you've got to be prepared fully to be the exact opposite. If you're a person who's looking for a relationship, the only way you're going to get in an awesome relationship is by being comfortable being alone.

Lex Fridman 1:18:26 Yeah.

John Clarke 1:18:26 Because that's the risk. If you're a person who's driven by money, you've got to be comfortable being totally poor, because that's the risk, right?

Lex Fridman 1:18:33 Mm-hmm.

John Clarke 1:18:33 And when you're, when, when you're, when you're constantly hedging your bets, you're never all in. You're never all in on the thing you're trying to do. Um, a relationship has to compliment your life. You can't say... It's okay to want to be in a relationship, but you can't want to be in a relationship so bad that you take someone in who fits the suit. And it's like, "Oh, our schedules kind of work out. You live near me and this, that, and the other thing." Because the logistics of a relationship are not always perfect. It's, what matters is when the two people are together. That's the perfect part of it. And it's great to want to meet people and say, "If we meet and some sort of a relationship develops, I'm willing to run with it. But I'm not meeting you hoping a relationship develops." I think you kind of put the cart before the horse in a lot of those situations. It's like when guys meet. Like, no guy goes out and is like, "I'm looking for a bro."Right? Nobody does that. You go to the gym and you run into a bunch of dudes. And the next thing you know, someone's cool and they wanna talk about fighting-

Lex Fridman 1:19:37 Yeah.

John Clarke 1:19:37 ...and you're fucking shotgunning beers. And all of a sudden-

Lex Fridman 1:19:39 Yeah.

John Clarke 1:19:39 ...you got a bro.

Lex Fridman 1:19:40 Yeah.

John Clarke 1:19:41 And that's how it works. It works the same- same way with women.

Lex Fridman 1:19:43 What's a shotgun and beers?

John Clarke 1:19:44 Um, I'll show you after this. You poke a hole in the bottom and you open the top.

Lex Fridman 1:19:49 Yeah.

John Clarke 1:19:49 Yeah. It's very-

Lex Fridman 1:19:50 This is the problem with America.

John Clarke 1:19:51 (laughs) Well, we could have fun with it.

Lex Fridman 1:19:52 Dr- drink vodka like a man. Okay? Now, don't poke holes in beers. This is the problem with the frat culture.

John Clarke 1:19:58 The frat culture.

Lex Fridman 1:19:59 They- they don't really know how to drink. They think they know how to drink. They don't know

Lex Fridman 1:20:02 how to drink. What do you think, uh, makes a successful relationship? If we can linger on that a little longer. Like, let me ask Jon Clark about love. I didn't ask a question, but let me just say, "Love."

John Clarke 1:20:22 About love... (laughs)

Lex Fridman 1:20:24 (laughs) Uh, are you one of those people who never says, "I love you"?

John Clarke 1:20:31 No. No. I'm an extreme person and, uh, like my emotions are also extreme.

Lex Fridman 1:20:37 Mm-hmm.

John Clarke 1:20:37 And one of the things, uh, I concern myself with, maybe this is philosophical and martial arts warrior, soldier type related stuff, is like, I don't want anyone, if I die tonight on the drive home, hopefully that doesn't happen, I hope that no one is left questioning how I felt about them. And people I don't like probably are not questioning that. And so the- the thing that I've had to learn how to do later in life is to tell the people that you care about, that you care about them. And, um, each thing can be equally off-putting to the receiver of the message.

Lex Fridman 1:21:18 Each thing can be equally off-putting to the receiver of the message?

John Clarke 1:21:20 When you, when you're letting someone know how much you dislike them, that can be off-putting to the person receiving that message.

Lex Fridman 1:21:25 Yeah.

John Clarke 1:21:25 And when you tell someone how much you care about them, it