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Jordan Ellenberg: Mathematics of High-Dimensional Shapes and Geometries | Lex Fridman Podcast #190

Jordan Ellenberg is a mathematician and author of Shape and How Not to Be Wrong. Please support this podcast by checking out our sponsors: - Secret Sauce: https://wondery.com/shows/secret-sauce/ - ExpressVPN: https://expressvpn.com/lexpod and use code LexPod to get 3 months free - Blinkist: https://blinkist.com/lex and use code LEX to get 25% off premium - Indeed: https://indeed.com/lex to get $75 credit EPISODE LINKS: Jordan's Website: http://www.jordanellenberg.com Jordan's Twitter: https://twitter.com/JSEllenberg PODCAST INFO: Podcast website: https://lexfridman.com/podcast Apple Podcasts: https://apple.co/2lwqZIr Spotify: https://spoti.fi/2nEwCF8 RSS: https://lexfridman.com/feed/podcast/ Full episodes playlist: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLrAXtmErZgOdP_8GztsuKi9nrraNbKKp4 Clips playlist: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLrAXtmErZgOeciFP3CBCIEElOJeitOr41 OUTLINE: 0:00 - Introduction 1:01 - Mathematical thinking 4:38 - Geometry 9:15 - Symmetry 19:46 - Math and science in the Soviet Union 27:26 - Topology 42:15 - Do we live in many more than 4 dimensions? 46:45 - How many holes does a straw have 56:11 - 3Blue1Brown 1:01:57 - Will AI ever win a Fields Medal? 1:10:22 - Fermat's last theorem 1:27:41 - Reality cannot be explained simply 1:33:25 - Prime numbers 1:54:54 - John Conway's Game of Life 2:06:46 - Group theory 2:10:03 - Gauge theory 2:18:05 - Grigori Perelman and the Poincare Conjecture 2:28:17 - How to learn math 2:35:26 - Advice for young people 2:37:31 - Meaning of life SOCIAL: - Twitter: https://twitter.com/lexfridman - LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lexfridman - Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/lexfridman - Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/lexfridman - Medium: https://medium.com/@lexfridman - Reddit: https://reddit.com/r/lexfridman - Support on Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/lexfridman

Lex FridmanhostJordan Ellenbergguest
Jun 13, 20212h 41mWatch on YouTube ↗

At a glance

WHAT IT’S REALLY ABOUT

Geometry, Symmetry, and Higher Dimensions: Math as Human Exploration

  1. Lex Fridman and mathematician Jordan Ellenberg explore how geometry, symmetry, and high-dimensional spaces illuminate both pure mathematics and real-world phenomena. They discuss the relationship between language, visualization, and mathematical thought, using examples from simple shapes, prime numbers, topology, and Poincaré’s work on higher dimensions.
  2. Key stories include Ellenberg’s childhood revelation about multiplication via a stereo speaker grille, the famous “how many holes does a straw have?” puzzle, and deep dives into symmetry, group theory, and the role of alternative distance notions like p-adic metrics. They also connect math to AI, such as how symmetry and similarity relate to handwritten digit recognition and neural networks.
  3. The conversation highlights major mathematical milestones, including Poincaré’s three-body work and conjecture, Perelman’s proof, Fermat’s Last Theorem and Wiles’ approach, and Conway’s Game of Life. Throughout, Ellenberg stresses that math’s real goal is understanding, not just theorem production, and that its history is inseparable from human culture, politics, and personality.

IDEAS WORTH REMEMBERING

5 ideas

Mathematical thinking is deeply tied to both language and visualization.

Ellenberg notes it’s hard to imagine doing math without linguistic propositions, yet many proofs (like Bhaskara’s visual proof of Pythagoras) operate almost purely visually—suggesting math is a process of structured manipulation, whether of words or images.

Symmetry and invariance are central organizing ideas in modern mathematics.

Group theory generalizes everyday symmetry (like mirror or rotational symmetry) into abstract transformations; much of contemporary math and physics asks, “Under which transformations do our objects and laws stay the same?”

Geometry and topology require rethinking what it means for spaces to be ‘the same.’

Examples like mugs vs cups, pants vs straws, and higher-dimensional phase space show that ‘sameness’ is often about deformability (no tearing/gluing) and intrinsic properties like simple connectivity, not superficial appearance or embedding.

Alternative notions of distance can unlock powerful new insights.

The p-adic metric, where numbers are ‘close’ if their difference is divisible by a high power of a prime, underlies key parts of Wiles’ Fermat proof and illustrates how changing the distance function can reveal structure invisible in the usual real-number metric.

Randomness is a crucial heuristic for understanding deterministic structures like primes.

Although primality is fully deterministic, treating primes as if randomly distributed (with a specific density) helps formulate conjectures like the twin prime conjecture and avoid wasting effort trying to prove likely-false statements.

WORDS WORTH SAVING

5 quotes

Geometry is the cilantro of math. People are not neutral about it.

Jordan Ellenberg

Mathematics is the art of calling different things by the same name.

Henri Poincaré (quoted by Jordan Ellenberg)

Knowing mathematics is like wearing a pair of X-ray specs that reveal hidden structures underneath the messy and chaotic surface of the world.

Jordan Ellenberg (quoted by Lex Fridman)

The goal of mathematics is to help humans understand things. Proving theorems is how we test that understanding, but it’s not the goal.

Jordan Ellenberg (paraphrasing his and Thurston’s view)

Real things are not simple. A few things are. Most are not.

Jordan Ellenberg

Mathematics, language, and visualization in human cognitionGeometry, topology, and the nature of high-dimensional spacesSymmetry, group theory, and invariance in math and physicsPrime numbers, randomness heuristics, and Fermat’s Last TheoremPoincaré, Perelman, and the Poincaré conjecture/topologyConway, cellular automata, and complexity from simple rulesAI, distance metrics, and how machines (and humans) recognize patternsMath education, contests, and how people fall in love (or don’t) with geometry

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