Jordan Jonas: Survival, Hunting, Siberia, God, and Winning Alone Season 6 | Lex Fridman Podcast #437

1. 0:00 – 1:19

   Introduction

   1. LFLex Fridman0:00

      The following is a conversation with Jordan Jonas, winner of Alone season six, a show where the task is to survive alone in the Arctic wilderness longer than anyone else. He is widely considered to be one of, if not the greatest competitors on that show. He has a fascinating life story that took him from a farm in Idaho, and hoboing on trains across America, to traveling with nomadic tribes in Siberia. All that helped make him into a world-class explorer, survivor, hunter, wilderness guide, and most importantly, a great human being with a big heart and a big smile. This was a truly fun and fascinating conversation. Let me also mention that at the end, after the episode, I'll start answering some questions and will try to articulate my thinking on some top of mind topics. So, if that's of interest to you, keep listening after the episode is over. This is the Lex Fridman Podcast. To support it, please check out our sponsors in the description. And now, dear friends, here's Jordan Jonas.

2. 1:19 – 35:38

   Alone Season 6

   1. LFLex Fridman1:19

      You won Alone season six, and I think are still considered to be one of, if not the most successful survivor on that show. Uh, so let's go back. Let's look at the big picture. Can you, uh, tell me about the show Alone? How does it work?

   2. JJJordan Jonas1:35

      Yeah. It's a show where they take 10 individuals and each person gets 10 items off of a list, you know, basic items. It'd be an ax, a saw, a frying pan, you know, some pretty basic stuff. And then they send 'em all, drop 'em off all in the woods with a few cameras. And, uh, so the people are actually alone. There's not a crew or anything. And then you, uh, basically live there as long as you can, you know? And so the person that lasts the longest, you know, once the second-place person taps out, they come and get you, and that, and that individual wins. So it's a, it's a pretty legit challenge, you know? They, they drop you off, helicopter flies out, and you're not gonna get your next meal until you make it happen, so...

   3. LFLex Fridman2:22

      So you have to figure out the shelter, you have to figure out the source of food, and then it gets colder and colder 'cause they, I guess they drop you out in a moment where it's going into the winter.

   4. JJJordan Jonas2:31

      Yeah, they typically do it in temperate, colder climates, things like that. And they start in, you know, September, October, so time's ticking when they drop you off. And, uh, yeah, the pressure's on. You got... It's, you know, you get overwhelmed with all the things you have to do right away. Like, "Oh, man, I... I'm not gonna eat again until I actually shoot or catch something." Gotta build a shelter. It's pretty overwhelming. Figure your whole location out. But it's interesting, 'cause once you're there a little while, you kind of get into a... Well, at least for me, I did. There was, like, a week, or maybe not a week, but, uh, that I was kind of a little more annoyed with things. You know, it's like, "Oh, my sight sucks." (laughs) Sucks. And then, and then you kind of accept it. Like, "You know what? It is-"

   5. LFLex Fridman3:14

      (laughs) .

   6. JJJordan Jonas3:14

      "... what it is. No co- no amount of complaining's gonna do anybody any good, so I'm just gonna make it happen." And so then... Or, you know, do my best to. And then I felt like I got in a zone, and I felt like I was right back in kinda Siberia or in that headspace, and I, I found I actually really enjoyed it. I'd been a little bit out of, I guess you'd call it (laughs) the game 'cause I had had a child. And, and so when we had our daughter, we came back to the States, and then a bunch of s- things happened, and I just ended up... We didn't end up going back to Russia. So, there've been a couple years that I was just, you know, raising the little girl and boy then, and then-

   7. LFLex Fridman3:49

      So you'd gotten a little soft.

   8. JJJordan Jonas3:51

      So I was like, "Did I get a little soft?" (laughs)

   9. LFLex Fridman3:53

      (laughs) Yeah, figure that out.

   10. JJJordan Jonas3:55

       But then it was fun how, like, after just some days there, I was like, "Oh, man, I feel like... I feel like I'm at home now." And then it was like you're kind of in that flow state, and it was...

   11. LFLex Fridman4:03

       Actually, there's a few moments, like when you left the ladder up-

   12. JJJordan Jonas4:06

       Mm-hmm.

   13. LFLex Fridman4:07

       ... or with the moose, that you kind of screwed up a little bit.

   14. JJJordan Jonas4:09

       Oh, yeah.

   15. LFLex Fridman4:10

       How do you go from that moment of, like, frustration to the moment of acceptance?

   16. JJJordan Jonas4:16

       I mean, the more you put yourself in life in positions that are kind of outside your comfort zone or push your abilities, the more often you're gonna screw up, and then- (laughs)

   17. LFLex Fridman4:26

       Yeah.

   18. JJJordan Jonas4:27

       ... the more opportunity you have to learn from that. And then, to be honest, it's kinda funny, but you almost get to a position where you, where you don't feel that uncomf- It's not unexpected, you know? You kind of expect you're gonna mess up here and there. You know, I p- I remember particularly with the, um, with the moose, the first moose I saw, I had a great shot at it, but I had a hard time judging distance because it was in a mud flat, which means it's hard to, it's hard to tell yardage, you know? (laughs) 'Cause I'm... 'Cause you usually typically go and by trees or markers, be like, "Oh, I'm probably 30 yards away." This was a giant moose, and he was 40-something yards away. And I estimated that he was 30-something yards away, so I was way off. And shot and dropped between his legs, and then I realized I had not grabbed my quiver, so I only had one shot, and I just watched him turn around and walk off. But I was struck initially with, like... I- I actually noticed how un-mad I was. I was like, "Oh, this is actually..." I was like, "That was awesome. That was like seeing a dinosaur. That was really cool." And then I was like, "Oh, what an idiot. How'd I miss?" But then I was like... But it made me that much more determined to make it happen again. It was like, "Okay, nobody's gonna make this happen except myself, so you can't, can't complain." It wouldn't have done me any good to go back and mope about it. And so then I was like... I had a thought. I was like, "Oh, I remember these na- the native guys telling me they used to, like, build these giant fences and funnel game into certain areas and stuff." And I was like, "Man, that's a lot of calories, but I have to make that happen again now." So (laughs) I kinda went out there and tried that, and that was kind of a attempt at something, too. It could have failed or not worked, but sure enough, it worked, and...... the opportunity came again, the moose came wandering along, and I was able to get it. But being able to take failure, the sooner you can, the better. Accept it, and then learn from it is kind of a muscle you have to exercise a little bit.

   19. LFLex Fridman6:23

       Well, it's interesting, 'cause in this case, the cost of failure is like, you're not going to be able to eat.

   20. JJJordan Jonas6:27

       Yeah. Yeah. That was, that was really interesting. I mean-

   21. LFLex Fridman6:31

       (laughs)

   22. JJJordan Jonas6:31

       ... the, the most interesting thing about that show was how high the stakes felt.

   23. LFLex Fridman6:35

       Yeah.

   24. JJJordan Jonas6:35

       'Cause it didn't feel... You know, you didn't tell yourself you're on a show. At least I didn't. I- you just felt like it was, you're gonna starve to death if you don't make this happen, and so-

   25. LFLex Fridman6:43

       Yeah.

   26. JJJordan Jonas6:43

       ... the stakes felt so high. And, and, um, it was an interesting thing to tap into, because I mean, so many of our ancestors probably all just dealt with that on a regular basis. But it's something that we're thought all the modern amenities and such (laughs) and food security that we don't deal with. And, uh, it was interesting to tap into what a, kind of a peak mental experience that is, when you really, really need something to survive, and then it happens. It's... You can't imagine. I mean, that's what our, all our dopamine and (laughs) receptors are tuned for that experience in particular. So it was... Yeah, it was pretty awesome. But the pressure felt very on, like I, I always felt the pressure of, of providing or starving.

   27. LFLex Fridman7:29

       And then there's the situation when you left the ladder up-

   28. JJJordan Jonas7:33

       Right.

   29. LFLex Fridman7:33

       ... and you needed fat, and, uh, what is it? The wolverine ate some of the fat.

   30. JJJordan Jonas7:37

       Right. (laughs) Yeah. Well, it was... When I got the moose, I was so happy. The most joy I could almost experience max- maxed out. But-
3. 35:38 – 51:53

   Arctic

   1. JJJordan Jonas35:38

      Yeah. (laughs) Yeah.

   2. LFLex Fridman35:38

      Can you just speak to like the place you were? The, the Canadian arctic? It looked cold.

   3. JJJordan Jonas35:43

      Yeah. We were right near the Arctic Circle. I don't know, it was like 60 kilometers south of the Arctic Circle. So, uh, it was ... It's a really cool area, really remote. Thousands of little lakes. You know, when you fly over, you're just like, "Man, it's incredible. There must be so many of those lakes that people haven't been to." You know, it really was a neat area, really remote. And for the show's purpose, I think it was perfect, 'cause it did have enough game and enough different avenues forward that I think it really did reward activity.

   4. LFLex Fridman36:13

      Mm-hmm.

   5. JJJordan Jonas36:14

      So, I think, uh ... But it's a special place. It was, uh, Dene was the tribe that lived there, the Dene people. Which interestingly enough, here's a side note. When I was in Siberia, I floated down this river called the Podkamennaya Tunguska.

   6. LFLex Fridman36:28

      Mm-hmm.

   7. JJJordan Jonas36:29

      And you get to this village.... called Sulamite, and there's these Ket people, they're called. And there's only 600 of 'em left, but in, this is in the middle of Siberia, not in like the Pacific Coast. But their language is related to the Dene people. And so somehow, (laughs) you know, that connection was there thousands of years ago. Super interesting, but.

   8. LFLex Fridman36:51

      Yeah, so language travels, somehow.

   9. JJJordan Jonas36:54

      Right. And the remnants stayed back there. It's very interesting to think through history.

   10. LFLex Fridman36:59

       Yeah. Wi- within languages contains a history of a peoples, and, uh, it's interesting how that evolves over time.

   11. JJJordan Jonas37:04

       Mm-hmm.

   12. LFLex Fridman37:05

       And how wars tell the story. Like, language tells a story of conflict, and conflict shapes languaging.

   13. JJJordan Jonas37:11

       Right.

   14. LFLex Fridman37:11

       We get the, we get the result of that.

   15. JJJordan Jonas37:13

       Right. So fascinating.

   16. LFLex Fridman37:15

       And the barriers that language creates is also the thing that leads to wars and misunderstandings and all this kind of stuff.

   17. JJJordan Jonas37:22

       Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

   18. LFLex Fridman37:22

       It's a fascinating tension.

   19. JJJordan Jonas37:24

       Mm-hmm.

   20. LFLex Fridman37:24

       Uh, but it got cold there, right?

   21. JJJordan Jonas37:26

       Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

   22. LFLex Fridman37:26

       It got real cold.

   23. JJJordan Jonas37:28

       Yeah, I mean, I think, I don't know what the... I didn't have a thermometer but I imagine it probably got (Lex laughs) to negative 30 at the most. You know, like, it might've gotten... It would've definitely gotten colder had we stayed longer. But, uh, yeah, I- I... To be honest, I, I was just said I never felt cold out there. I was pretty, I had that one pretty dialed in. And then once you have calories, you can stay warm, you can stay active. You can, you know, you gotta dress warm. (laughs) You know, you don't... Never let... Oh, there's a good one if you're in the cold. Never let yourself get too cold because what happens is you'll stop feeling what's cold, and then frostbite, and then issues, and then it's really hard to warm back up. So every... I'd... It was so annoying. I'd be out going to ice fish or something, and then I would just notice that my feet are cold and you're just like, "Oh, dang it." I just turn around, go back, start a fire, dry my boots out, make sure my feet are warm, and then go again. I wouldn't ignore that, you know.

   24. LFLex Fridman38:22

       Oh, so you wanna be able to feel the cold?

   25. JJJordan Jonas38:24

       Yeah, you wanna make sure you're still feeling things and that you're not toughing through it, 'cause you can't really tough through the cold. It'll just get you, so.

   26. LFLex Fridman38:32

       What's your relationship with the cold?

   27. JJJordan Jonas38:35

       Um-

   28. LFLex Fridman38:35

       Psychologically? Physically?

   29. JJJordan Jonas38:38

       Uh, it's interesting. It... Well, I actually... There's just some part of it that really makes you feel alive, you know.

   30. LFLex Fridman38:43

       Okay.
4. 51:53 – 59:29

   Roland Welker

   1. LFLex Fridman51:53

      Um, like I said, many people consider you the most successful competitor on Alone. The other successful one is Roland Welker, Rock House guy.

   2. JJJordan Jonas52:02

      Oh, yeah. (laughs)

   3. LFLex Fridman52:03

      This is just a fun, ridiculous question-

   4. JJJordan Jonas52:05

      (laughs)

   5. LFLex Fridman52:05

      ... but head-to-head, who do you think survives longer?

   6. JJJordan Jonas52:08

      (laughs) Um, if you wanna get into the competitive side of it, I would just say, well, I've, I'm pretty dang sure I had more pounds of food. (laughs)

   7. LFLex Fridman52:19

      (laughs)

   8. JJJordan Jonas52:19

      But-

   9. LFLex Fridman52:19

      Just foodwise.

   10. JJJordan Jonas52:19

       And I didn't have the advantage of knowing when it would end, which I think would've been a great psy- psychological ...

   11. LFLex Fridman52:26

       Oh, yeah.

   12. JJJordan Jonas52:26

       It would've made it really easy. Once I got the moose, I could have shot the moose and just not stressed.

   13. LFLex Fridman52:30

       Yeah.

   14. JJJordan Jonas52:30

       That would've been like a ... And so that was a big difference between the seasons that I felt like ... I mean, I felt like the psychology of season seven, they kind of messed up by doing a 100-day cap. Because I, for my own experience, that was the hardest part. But R- Roland's a, uh, he's a beast.

   15. LFLex Fridman52:47

       So for people who don't know, they put a 100-day cap on, so it's whoever can survive 100 days, uh, for that season. It's interesting to hear that for you, the uncertainty, not knowing-

   16. JJJordan Jonas52:58

       Mm-hmm.

   17. LFLex Fridman52:58

       ... when it ends is-

   18. JJJordan Jonas52:59

       That was for sure it, yeah.

   19. LFLex Fridman53:00

       ... is the hardest.

   20. JJJordan Jonas53:02

       It was.

   21. LFLex Fridman53:02

       That's true.

   22. JJJordan Jonas53:03

       Mm-hmm.

   23. LFLex Fridman53:03

       'Cause like you wake up every day.

   24. JJJordan Jonas53:05

       I didn't know how to ration my food. I didn't know if, if I was gonna lose after six months and then it was all gonna be for naught. I didn't know if it w- You know, I just, there's so many unknowns. You don't know ... Like, like I said, if I shot a moose and it was 100 days, done. If I shot a moose and you don't know, it's like, "Crap, I could still lose to somebody else, but it's gonna be way in the future." (laughs) So anyway, that for me was definitely the, the hard part.

   25. LFLex Fridman53:31

       And when you found out that you won and your wife was there, it was funny because you were really happy. There was a great sort of moment of you, uh, reuniting. But also there's a state of shock of like ... (laughs)

   26. JJJordan Jonas53:44

       (laughs)

   27. LFLex Fridman53:45

       You look (laughs) you look like you were ready to go much longer.

   28. JJJordan Jonas53:48

       That was the most genuine shock I could have. I d- n- I hadn't even like entertained the thought yet. I didn't even-

   29. LFLex Fridman53:54

       Yeah.

   30. JJJordan Jonas53:54

       ... think it was a ... You'd hear the helicopters, and I just assumed there was other people out there. I just hadn't, I thought ... Like, you know, and for one, the previous person that had gone the longest had gone 89 days. So I just knew whoever else was out here with me, somebody's got that in their crosshairs. They're gonna-
5. 59:29 – 1:11:14

   Freight trains

   1. JJJordan Jonas59:29

   2. LFLex Fridman59:29

      Nice. Let's step to the, uh, the early days of Jordan.

   3. JJJordan Jonas59:33

      (laughs)

   4. LFLex Fridman59:34

      So, uh, your, uh, Instagram handle is hobojordo. So, early on in your life, you, uh, hoboed around the US on freight trains. What's the story behind that?

   5. JJJordan Jonas59:47

      My brother, when he was 17 or so, he just decided to go hitchhiking, and he hitchhiked down to Reno from Idaho, wherever you were, and, uh, ended up li- loving traveling but hated being dependent on other people. So, he ended up jumping on a freight train, and-

   6. LFLex Fridman1:00:04

      (laughs)

   7. JJJordan Jonas1:00:05

      ... and just did it. He honestly, he pretty much got on a train and traveled the country for the next eight years-

   8. LFLex Fridman1:00:11

      Yeah.

   9. JJJordan Jonas1:00:11

      ... on trains, lived in the streets and everywhere. But, uh, you know, he was sober, so it gives you a different experience than a lot. (laughs) But at one point, when I was, I guess, yeah, 18, he invited me to come along with him. He'd probably been doing it five or so, four or five years, and, uh, or more. And, uh, I said, "Sure." So, I quit my job and went out with him. Um, Hobo Jordo is a bit of an overstep. I feel self-conscious about that, 'cause I rode ac- I rode trains across the country, up and down the coast, back. You know, spent the better part of the year running around, riding trains and all the staying in places related to that. But all the people, you know, the real hobos, those guys are out there doing it for years on end. But it was such a-

   10. LFLex Fridman1:00:54

       (laughs)

   11. JJJordan Jonas1:00:54

       For me, what it felt like was a, it felt like a bit of a rite of passage experience, which is kind of missing, I think, in modern life. So, I did this thing that was a huge unknown. I- uh, Ben kind of was there with me and my brother for most of it.We traveled around, got-- pushed my boundaries in every which way, you know, froze at night and did all this stuff (laughs) . And then, and then at the end, I actually wanted to go back and go back home. And so I went on my own and went from Minneapolis back, you know, up to Spokane on my own, which was a fir- my first stint of time by myself for, like, a week, which was interesting.

   12. LFLex Fridman1:01:31

       A- Along with your own thoughts and

   13. NANarrator1:01:32

       Mm-hmm.

   14. JJJordan Jonas1:01:32

       With your own thoughts, it was my first time, and my life hadn't been like that, you know, and, and so it was, it was powerful at the time. You know what it did too? Is it gave me a whole different view of life, 'cause I had gotten a job when I was 13 and then 14, 15, 16, 17. And then I was just in the normal run of things, kind of, and then that just threw a whole different path into my life. And then I realized some of the things while I was traveling that I wouldn't experience again until I was living with natives and such. And that was, you know, you wake up, you don't have a schedule. You literally just have needs and you just somehow have to meet your needs. And so, uh, it's, it's a re- there's a really, uh, sense of freedom you get that is hard to replicate elsewhere. And so, uh, that was eyeopening to me, and I think once I did that, I went back. So I went back to my old job at the salad dressing plant and then (laughs) -

   15. LFLex Fridman1:02:25

       (laughs)

   16. JJJordan Jonas1:02:25

       ... uh, there was this old cross-eyed guy and he was, "Oh, Hobo Jordo is back!" And that's kind of where I got it, but (laughs) , but that freedom always was very important to me, I think, from that time on.

   17. LFLex Fridman1:02:38

       What'd you learn about the United States, about the people along the way? 'Cause I, I took a road trip across the US-

   18. JJJordan Jonas1:02:44

       Mm-hmm.

   19. LFLex Fridman1:02:44

       ... also, and there was a, uh, there's a romantic element there too of, like-

   20. JJJordan Jonas1:02:48

       Mm-hmm.

   21. LFLex Fridman1:02:49

       ... of the freedom, of the, well, maybe for me, not knowing what the hell I'm gonna do with my life-

   22. JJJordan Jonas1:02:57

       (laughs)

   23. LFLex Fridman1:02:58

       ... but also excited by all the possibilities. And, and then you meet a lot of different people and a lot of different kinds of stories. And also, like, a lot of people that support you for tr- traveling, 'cause they go, there's a lot of people kind of dream of-

   24. JJJordan Jonas1:03:14

       Right.

   25. LFLex Fridman1:03:14

       ... experiencing that freedom, at least the people I've met. And they usually don't, they usually don't go out, uh, outside of their little town. They, they have a thing and they, they have a family, usually, and they, they don't explore. They don't take the leap. And you can do that when you're young. I guess you could do that at any moment. Just say, "Fuck it," and leap into the, the abyss of being on the road. But anyway, what'd you learn about this country, about the people in this country?

   26. JJJordan Jonas1:03:43

       You're in an interesting context when you're on trains, 'cause the trains always end up in the crappiest part of town, you know?

   27. LFLex Fridman1:03:50

       (laughs)

   28. JJJordan Jonas1:03:50

       And they alwa- and you're always outside interacting, oh, the interesting things. We know, every once in a while, you'll have to hitchhike to get from one place to another. One interesting thing is you notice you always get picked up by the, you know, the poor people or some- you know, they're the people that empathize with you, stop-

   29. LFLex Fridman1:04:06

       Mm-hmm.

   30. JJJordan Jonas1:04:06

       ... and pick you up. You can go to whatever ghetto ev- you end up in, and people are really, "Oh, what are you guys doing here?" Real friendly-

Episode duration: 2:46:19