Jordan Jonas: Survival, Hunting, Siberia, God, and Winning Alone Season 6 | Lex Fridman Podcast #437

Lex Fridman 0:00 The following is a conversation with Jordan Jonas, winner of Alone season six, a show where the task is to survive alone in the Arctic wilderness longer than anyone else. He is widely considered to be one of, if not the greatest competitors on that show. He has a fascinating life story that took him from a farm in Idaho, and hoboing on trains across America, to traveling with nomadic tribes in Siberia. All that helped make him into a world-class explorer, survivor, hunter, wilderness guide, and most importantly, a great human being with a big heart and a big smile. This was a truly fun and fascinating conversation. Let me also mention that at the end, after the episode, I'll start answering some questions and will try to articulate my thinking on some top of mind topics. So, if that's of interest to you, keep listening after the episode is over. This is the Lex Fridman Podcast. To support it, please check out our sponsors in the description. And now, dear friends, here's Jordan Jonas.

Lex Fridman 1:19 You won Alone season six, and I think are still considered to be one of, if not the most successful survivor on that show. Uh, so let's go back. Let's look at the big picture. Can you, uh, tell me about the show Alone? How does it work?

Jordan Jonas 1:35 Yeah. It's a show where they take 10 individuals and each person gets 10 items off of a list, you know, basic items. It'd be an ax, a saw, a frying pan, you know, some pretty basic stuff. And then they send 'em all, drop 'em off all in the woods with a few cameras. And, uh, so the people are actually alone. There's not a crew or anything. And then you, uh, basically live there as long as you can, you know? And so the person that lasts the longest, you know, once the second-place person taps out, they come and get you, and that, and that individual wins. So it's a, it's a pretty legit challenge, you know? They, they drop you off, helicopter flies out, and you're not gonna get your next meal until you make it happen, so...

Lex Fridman 2:22 So you have to figure out the shelter, you have to figure out the source of food, and then it gets colder and colder 'cause they, I guess they drop you out in a moment where it's going into the winter.

Jordan Jonas 2:31 Yeah, they typically do it in temperate, colder climates, things like that. And they start in, you know, September, October, so time's ticking when they drop you off. And, uh, yeah, the pressure's on. You got... It's, you know, you get overwhelmed with all the things you have to do right away. Like, "Oh, man, I... I'm not gonna eat again until I actually shoot or catch something." Gotta build a shelter. It's pretty overwhelming. Figure your whole location out. But it's interesting, 'cause once you're there a little while, you kind of get into a... Well, at least for me, I did. There was, like, a week, or maybe not a week, but, uh, that I was kind of a little more annoyed with things. You know, it's like, "Oh, my sight sucks." (laughs) Sucks. And then, and then you kind of accept it. Like, "You know what? It is-"

Lex Fridman 3:14 (laughs) .

Jordan Jonas 3:14 "... what it is. No co- no amount of complaining's gonna do anybody any good, so I'm just gonna make it happen." And so then... Or, you know, do my best to. And then I felt like I got in a zone, and I felt like I was right back in kinda Siberia or in that headspace, and I, I found I actually really enjoyed it. I'd been a little bit out of, I guess you'd call it (laughs) the game 'cause I had had a child. And, and so when we had our daughter, we came back to the States, and then a bunch of s- things happened, and I just ended up... We didn't end up going back to Russia. So, there've been a couple years that I was just, you know, raising the little girl and boy then, and then-

Lex Fridman 3:49 So you'd gotten a little soft.

Jordan Jonas 3:51 So I was like, "Did I get a little soft?" (laughs)

Lex Fridman 3:53 (laughs) Yeah, figure that out.

Jordan Jonas 3:55 But then it was fun how, like, after just some days there, I was like, "Oh, man, I feel like... I feel like I'm at home now." And then it was like you're kind of in that flow state, and it was...

Lex Fridman 4:03 Actually, there's a few moments, like when you left the ladder up-

Jordan Jonas 4:06 Mm-hmm.

Lex Fridman 4:07 ... or with the moose, that you kind of screwed up a little bit.

Jordan Jonas 4:09 Oh, yeah.

Lex Fridman 4:10 How do you go from that moment of, like, frustration to the moment of acceptance?

Jordan Jonas 4:16 I mean, the more you put yourself in life in positions that are kind of outside your comfort zone or push your abilities, the more often you're gonna screw up, and then- (laughs)

Lex Fridman 4:26 Yeah.

Jordan Jonas 4:27 ... the more opportunity you have to learn from that. And then, to be honest, it's kinda funny, but you almost get to a position where you, where you don't feel that uncomf- It's not unexpected, you know? You kind of expect you're gonna mess up here and there. You know, I p- I remember particularly with the, um, with the moose, the first moose I saw, I had a great shot at it, but I had a hard time judging distance because it was in a mud flat, which means it's hard to, it's hard to tell yardage, you know? (laughs) 'Cause I'm... 'Cause you usually typically go and by trees or markers, be like, "Oh, I'm probably 30 yards away." This was a giant moose, and he was 40-something yards away. And I estimated that he was 30-something yards away, so I was way off. And shot and dropped between his legs, and then I realized I had not grabbed my quiver, so I only had one shot, and I just watched him turn around and walk off. But I was struck initially with, like... I- I actually noticed how un-mad I was. I was like, "Oh, this is actually..." I was like, "That was awesome. That was like seeing a dinosaur. That was really cool." And then I was like, "Oh, what an idiot. How'd I miss?" But then I was like... But it made me that much more determined to make it happen again. It was like, "Okay, nobody's gonna make this happen except myself, so you can't, can't complain." It wouldn't have done me any good to go back and mope about it. And so then I was like... I had a thought. I was like, "Oh, I remember these na- the native guys telling me they used to, like, build these giant fences and funnel game into certain areas and stuff." And I was like, "Man, that's a lot of calories, but I have to make that happen again now." So (laughs) I kinda went out there and tried that, and that was kind of a attempt at something, too. It could have failed or not worked, but sure enough, it worked, and...... the opportunity came again, the moose came wandering along, and I was able to get it. But being able to take failure, the sooner you can, the better. Accept it, and then learn from it is kind of a muscle you have to exercise a little bit.

Lex Fridman 6:23 Well, it's interesting, 'cause in this case, the cost of failure is like, you're not going to be able to eat.

Jordan Jonas 6:27 Yeah. Yeah. That was, that was really interesting. I mean-

Lex Fridman 6:31 (laughs)

Jordan Jonas 6:31 ... the, the most interesting thing about that show was how high the stakes felt.

Lex Fridman 6:35 Yeah.

Jordan Jonas 6:35 'Cause it didn't feel... You know, you didn't tell yourself you're on a show. At least I didn't. I- you just felt like it was, you're gonna starve to death if you don't make this happen, and so-

Lex Fridman 6:43 Yeah.

Jordan Jonas 6:43 ... the stakes felt so high. And, and, um, it was an interesting thing to tap into, because I mean, so many of our ancestors probably all just dealt with that on a regular basis. But it's something that we're thought all the modern amenities and such (laughs) and food security that we don't deal with. And, uh, it was interesting to tap into what a, kind of a peak mental experience that is, when you really, really need something to survive, and then it happens. It's... You can't imagine. I mean, that's what our, all our dopamine and (laughs) receptors are tuned for that experience in particular. So it was... Yeah, it was pretty awesome. But the pressure felt very on, like I, I always felt the pressure of, of providing or starving.

Lex Fridman 7:29 And then there's the situation when you left the ladder up-

Jordan Jonas 7:33 Right.

Lex Fridman 7:33 ... and you needed fat, and, uh, what is it? The wolverine ate some of the fat.

Jordan Jonas 7:37 Right. (laughs) Yeah. Well, it was... When I got the moose, I was so happy. The most joy I could almost experience max- maxed out. But-

Lex Fridman 7:45 (laughs)

Jordan Jonas 7:46 ... I didn't think I, uh, I didn't think I won at that point. I never thought like, "Oh, that's my ticket to victory." I thought, "Holy crap, it's going to be me against somebody else that gets a moose now. And we're going to be here six, eight months, who knows how long."

Lex Fridman 7:59 Yeah.

Jordan Jonas 7:59 "And so, I can't, I can't be here six, eight months and still lose. So I've got to like... I've got to out-produce somebody else with a moose." So I had all that in my head, and I already was, of course, pretty thin. And, and so I was just like, "Man, if somebody else gets a moose, I'm still gonna be behind." And so everything felt like, precious to me. And then I'd found a plastic jug, and I put a whole bunch of the moose's fat in this plastic jug and set it up on a little shelf. I thought, "Oh, you know what? If a bear comes, I'll probably hear it, and I'll come out and be able to shoot it." So I went to sleep, and I woke up next morning, I went out and I was like, "Where's that jug?" (laughs) And then I started looking around-

Lex Fridman 8:34 (laughs)

Jordan Jonas 8:34 ... and then I was like, "Wait a second, what are all these prints?" And I started looking around.

Lex Fridman 8:38 (laughs)

Jordan Jonas 8:38 And it took a second to dawn on me, 'cause I haven't interacted with wolver- wolverines very often in life, and, uh, and I was like, "Oh, those are wolverine tracks." I mean, he was just so much sneakier than a bear would have been or something, so it kind of surprised me. And he took off with that jug of fat. And so then, I went from feeling pretty good about myself to like, now I'm losing again against whoever, you know, this other person is with a moose. So I, I... Again, kind of the pressure came back to like, "Oh, no, I got to produce again." It... You know, it wasn't the end of the world, and I think they may have exaggerated a little bit how little fat I had left. You know, I still had... A moose has a lot of fat. But it did make me feel like I was at a disadvantage again, and so... Yeah, that was pretty, that was pretty intense, 'cause those wolverines, they're bold little animals, and they... And he was basically saying, "No, this is my moose." (laughs)

Lex Fridman 9:31 (laughs)

Jordan Jonas 9:32 And I had to counter his claims, so... (laughs)

Lex Fridman 9:34 Well, they... Yeah, they're really, really smart. They figure out a way to get to places really effectively. Wolverines are like fascinating in that way.

Jordan Jonas 9:42 Mm-hmm.

Lex Fridman 9:43 Um, so let's go to that happy moment, the moose.

Jordan Jonas 9:46 Yeah, yeah.

Lex Fridman 9:47 You are the first and one of the only contestants to have ever killed a moose on the show, a big game animal, with a bow and arrow. So this is day 20. So can you take me through the kill?

Jordan Jonas 9:59 Yeah. So I'd missed one, and I just decided I'm not here to starve. I'm here to like try to become sustainable. So I was like, "I don't care if it's a risk, I'm gonna build that fence." I built it. I would just pick berries and call moose every, you know, every day, and it was actually a really pleasant, just sit in a berry patch and call moose. And so-

Lex Fridman 10:18 (laughs)

Jordan Jonas 10:18 (laughs) But then I would also had this whole trap and snare line set out everywhere. So I had all these... I was getting rabbits, um, but I went... And I was actually taking a rabbit out of a snare, when I heard a clank, 'cause I'd set up kind of an alarm system with, with string and cans. So-

Lex Fridman 10:37 It was a brilliant idea, by the way.

Jordan Jonas 10:38 And... Yeah. It's another thing that could have not worked, but it- (laughs)

Lex Fridman 10:42 It worked.

Jordan Jonas 10:43 And it came through, and I was like, "Oh, I heard the cans clank." And I was like, "No way." And so I ran over. I didn't know what it was exactly, but something was coming along the fence. And I ran over and jumped in the bush next to the funnel exit on the fence, and sure enough, this big moose came running up. And you know, your heart gets pounding like crazy, you're just like, "No way, no way." I probably could have waited a little longer and had a perfect broadside shot, but I took the shot when he was, uh... He was, he was pretty close, like 24 yards, but he was quartering towards me, which makes it a little harder to make a, a perfect kill shot, you know? And so I hit it, and it took off running, and I just thought... You know, I was super excited. I couldn't believe I actually... You know, I was like, "Oh my gosh, I got the moose. I think that was a really good shot." You get all excited. But then it plays back in your head, and particularly when you're first learning to hunt, there's always an animal that gets away, you know, and you like make a bad decision or a... Not a great shot or something, and it's just, it's just part of it. And so, of course, you're like, "I'm not going to be satisfied until I see this thing." So I followed the blood trail a little while, and I saw some bubbly blood, which meant it was hitting the lungs, which meant it's not gonna live, you know, you'll get it. And so... As long as you don't mess it up. And so I went back to my shelter and waited an hour. I skinned that rabbit that I had caught, and then-... super nervous, the slowest hour ever (laughs) I've ever had. And then I followed it along. Ended up losing the blood trail. I was like, "No, no."

Lex Fridman 12:18 Yeah.

Jordan Jonas 12:18 And then I was like, "Well, if there's no blood, I'm just gonna follow the path that I would go if I was a moose." You know, like, the least resistance through the woods. So I followed kind of along the shore there, and sure enough, I saw him up there. I was like, "Oh!" You know, I was so excited, lay down, but, uh, but he hadn't died yet. And so he just sat there, and I- and he would stand up, and I would just like, "No, no, no, no." And he would lay back down, and I'd be like, "Yes."

Lex Fridman 12:45 (laughs)

Jordan Jonas 12:45 And he would stand up, you know (laughs) . And it was like that for a- um, you know, a couple hours it took him. And then finally at one point I c- I, uh, you know, and a lot of people have asked, like, "Why wouldn't you go finish it off?" Um, so when an animal like that gets hit, it had no idea what hit it, you know, it just all of a sudden, it's like, "Ah," something got it and it ran off, and it lays down, and it's actually fairly calm, and it doesn't really know what's going on. And if you can leave it in that state, it'll kind of just bleed out, and as- as peacefully as possible. Um, if you go chase after it, that's when you lose an animal, 'cause as soon as it knows it's being hunted, you know, it gets panicked-

Lex Fridman 13:21 Mm-hmm.

Jordan Jonas 13:22 ... adrenaline, and it can just run and run and run, and you'll never find it. So I didn't want it to see me. I knew if I tried to get it with another arrow, there's a chance I could have finished it off, but there's also a not bad chance that it would see me, take off, or even attack, 'cause moose can be a little dangerous. And so, uh, I just chose to wait it out, and at one point, it stood up and fell over, and I could tell it had died. And walked over, like, you actually touch it, and you're just like, "Whoa," (laughs) "No way." Like, that whole burden of weeks of, "You're gonna starve, you're gonna starve," and it got rid of that demon. To be honest, it's one of the happiest moments of my life. It's really hard to replicate that joy, because it- it was just so, so real. You're so directly connected to your needs, it's all so simple, you know (laughs) .

Lex Fridman 14:10 (laughs)

Jordan Jonas 14:10 It was- it was a peak experience for sure.

Lex Fridman 14:14 And were you worried that it would take many more hours and it would take into the night?

Jordan Jonas 14:19 Yeah, I was. I mean, not- until you actually have your hands on it, I was worried the whole time. It's a pretty nerve-racking period there, between when you get it and when you actually recover the animal, get your hands on it. So, it took longer than I wanted, but I finally got it.

Lex Fridman 14:34 Can you actually speak to the- the kill shot itself, just for people who don't hunt?

Jordan Jonas 14:39 Yeah, so ...

Lex Fridman 14:39 Like what it takes to stay calm, to- (laughs) to-

Jordan Jonas 14:42 (laughs)

Lex Fridman 14:42 ... to not freak out too much.

Jordan Jonas 14:44 (laughs)

Lex Fridman 14:44 To, like-

Jordan Jonas 14:45 Oh.

Lex Fridman 14:45 ... wait, but not wait too long, like.

Jordan Jonas 14:46 Yeah, yeah. I mean, another thing about hunting is that for every animal you get, you probably don't get, you know, nine or 10 that- that just turned the wrong way when you were drawn back, or went way behind a tree, or you never had a clean shot, or whatever it is. And so, um, every time you can see a moment coming, you know, your heart really starts beating, and you have to, like, breathe through it, and I can almost, you know, you feel- almost feel the nervousness of it. And then, uh, and then you just try to stay calm, you know, like, whatever you do, just (laughs) try to stay calm, wait for it to come up, draw back. You- you've practiced shooting a lot, so you have, like, kind of a technique, like, "I'm gonna go back, touch my face, draw my elbow tight," and then the arrow's gonna let loose.

Lex Fridman 15:32 So muscle memory, mostly?

Jordan Jonas 15:33 It's kind of muscle memory.

Lex Fridman 15:34 Just ...

Jordan Jonas 15:34 You have a f- little trigger, like, "Draw the elbow tight," and then (squeaks) and then, uh, then it happens, and then you just watch the arrow and see where it goes. Now with the animal, you know, you try to do it ethically, that is, like, make as good of a shot as you can. Make sure it is either hit in the heart or both lungs. And when that happens, it's a pretty quick death, which is, and death is a part of life, and, but honestly, for a wild animal, that's probably the best way to go they could (laughs) they could have. Um, now when an animal's kind of walking towards you, if it's walking towards you, but not directly towards you, that's what you call quartering towards you. You can picture, it's actually pretty difficult to hit both lungs, because the shoulder blade and all that bone is in the way. So you wanna ... So you have to make a perfect shot to get 'em both. And to be honest, when I took my shot, I was a couple inches, or a few inches right, and so it went- it went through the first lung, and then it sunk the arrow all the way into the moose, and, but it didn't ... it allowed that second lung to stay-

Lex Fridman 16:36 Mm-hmm.

Jordan Jonas 16:36 ... breathing, which- which meant the moose stayed alive longer.

Lex Fridman 16:39 What's your relationship with the animal in a situation like that? You said-

Jordan Jonas 16:43 Oh, that's an-

Lex Fridman 16:43 ... death is a part of life.

Jordan Jonas 16:44 Yeah, that's an interesting thought, because no matter what your relationship to however you choose to go through life, whether, you know, whatever you eat, whatever you do, um, death is a part of life. You know, like, every animal that's out there is living off of the dead (laughs) , even plants, you know? It's all- it's all- we're all part of this ecosystem. I think it's really easy in a, particularly in an urban environment, but, uh, anywhere, to think that we're separate from the ecosystem. But we are very much a part of it, um, whether it be, you know, farming requires, you know, all this habitat to be turned into growing soybeans, and da-da-da-da-da. And when you get the plows and the combines, you know, you're losing all kinds of different animals and all kind of potential habitat that's ... So, it's not cost-free. And so when you realize that, then you wanna produce the food and the things you need, uh, in an ethical manner. So I, uh ... So for me, hunting plays a really major role in that. Like, I literally know how many animals a year it takes to feed my family and myself. Uh, I actually know the exact number (laughs) , you know?

Lex Fridman 17:54 Mm-hmm.

Jordan Jonas 17:54 And it's like ... And I know what the cost of that is, and I'm aware of it, 'cause I'm out in the woods, and I see these, like, beautiful elk and moose, and I- I really love the species, love the animals. But there is a fact that one of those individuals, you know, is going to have to feed me. And I- I ... And particularly-... like, on a lone, it was very heightened, that experience. So I shot that one animal, and I was so gr-, so thankful, you know, that I wanted to give that big guy a hug, and like, "Hey, sorry it was you, but-"

Lex Fridman 18:26 Yeah.

Jordan Jonas 18:26 "... had to be somebody." (laughs)

Lex Fridman 18:27 Yeah, there's that, there's that picture of you just almost hugging it.

Jordan Jonas 18:31 (laughs) Right, right, totally.

Lex Fridman 18:33 And you, you can also think about it, the, the, the calories, the, the protein, the fat, all of that, that, that comes from that, that will feed you.

Jordan Jonas 18:40 Right, and you're so grateful for it. Like, the, the gratitude is, is like, you know, definitely there.

Lex Fridman 18:46 What about the bow and arrow perspective?

Jordan Jonas 18:48 Well, when you hunt with a bow, you just get so much more up close to the animals. You know, you, you can't just sh- get it from 600 yards away. You actually have to sneak in within 30 or so yards, and, uh, when you do that, the experiences you have are just ... they're way more dragged out, so, you know, your heart's beating longer, you have to control your nerves longer. More often than not, it doesn't go your way, and the thing gets away, and, you know, you've been hiking around in the woods for a week, and then your opportunity arises and floats away. (laughs) And you're like, "No." (laughs) And then ... But, at the same time, that's the only time we, uh, when you'll, like, really have those interactions with the animals, where you got this bugling bull, you know, like, tearing at the trees right in front of you, and other cow, elk, and animals running around you. You know, you get, you get, you end up having really, uh, I don't know if I dare say, intimate experiences with the animal, just because, 'cause you're in it. You're kind of in its world, you're playing its game. It has its senses to defend itself, and you have your wit to try to, (laughs) to get over those. And it really, it becomes ... You know, it's not easy. They're not, i- i- it becomes kind of that chess game. And, uh, those prey animals are always tuned in. It's, you know, slightest stick, they're looking for wolves or for (laughs) whatever it is. So, um, there's something really pure and fun about it. Uh, you know, I will say it, there is a, uh, aspect that is fun. There's no denying it. It's like how we're, m- you know, people have been hunting forever, and, and, uh, I think it speaks to that part of us somehow. But ... And I think, um, bow hunting is probably the most pure form of it, in that you get those experiences more often than with a rifle. So I real- ... I, I don't know, I en- I enjoy it a lot. And, and the way they do regulations and such, um, kind of the best times to hunt are usually allowed for bow, because they're trying to, you know, keep it fair for the animal and such, so ...

Lex Fridman 20:54 So the distance, the close distance, makes you more in touch with a sort of, uh, the, the natural way of the predator and prey, and you just want-

Jordan Jonas 21:04 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Lex Fridman 21:05 You're one of the predators-

Jordan Jonas 21:07 Mm-hmm.

Lex Fridman 21:08 ... where you have to be clever, you have to be quiet, you have to be calm, you have to ... all of that.

Jordan Jonas 21:12 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 21:13 And the full challenge and the luck involved in catching that.

Jordan Jonas 21:17 Mm-hmm.

Lex Fridman 21:17 The same thing as the predators do.

Jordan Jonas 21:19 Exactly. How many times do they snap a stick and watch him run off, and-

Lex Fridman 21:23 Yeah.

Jordan Jonas 21:23 ... you're like, "Darn, my stalk was failed." Or, you know ... (laughs) So, yeah, you're just, you're in that, in that ecosystem.

Lex Fridman 21:31 How'd you learn to, to shoot the bow?

Jordan Jonas 21:33 So yeah, I was ... I didn't grow up hunting. I grew up in a area that a lot of people hunted, but my dad wasn't really into it. And so I never got into it, until, until I lived in Russia with the natives. It was just such a part of everything we did and a part of our life that, when I came back, I got a bow and I started doing archery. In Virginia, they had ... it was a pretty easy way to hunt, 'cause the deer were overpopulated, and you could get these urban archery permits. So you would go out and, you know, every couple days, you'd have an opportunity to shoot a, a deer that they needed population control. And so there were a lot of them, and it gave you a lot of opportunities to learn quickly.

Lex Fridman 22:10 Mm-hmm.

Jordan Jonas 22:11 So that's what got me into it. And then I found I really enjoyed it.

Lex Fridman 22:14 Do you practice with a, with a target, also? Or just practice out hunting?

Jordan Jonas 22:18 Oh, no, I would definitely practice with a target a lot. You wanna ... Again, you kind of have an obligation to do your best, 'cause you don't want to be flinging arrows into, like, the leg of an animal. And it's a cool way, honestly, to provide quality meat for the family, you know. It's all raised naturally and wild and free until you bring it home into the freezer, so ...

Lex Fridman 22:37 So if we step back, uh, what are the 10 items you brought? And what's actually the challenge of figuring out which items to bring?

Jordan Jonas 22:44 Yeah, the challenge is that you don't exactly know what your site's opportunities are gonna be. So you don't really know, should I bring a fishing net? Am I going to even have a spot to net or not? Ehm, things like that. Uh, I brought a ax, a saw, an Leatherman Wave, a ferro rod is like a ... it makes sparks, it start a fire, a frying pan, a sleeping bag, a fishing kit, a bow and arrow, trapping wire and paracord. And so those are my 10 items.

Lex Fridman 23:19 Is any, uh, any regrets? Any ...

Jordan Jonas 23:22 No major regrets. I, I took, (laughs) uh, I took the saw, kind of. I thought it would be a little more of a calorie saver. Then I ... I didn't really need it. I ... In hindsight, if I was doing, you know, season seven instead of six and got to watch, I would have taken the, the net, because I, I just planned to make a net, but I would have rather just had two nets, (laughs)

Lex Fridman 23:43 Yeah.

Jordan Jonas 23:43 ... and brought one and left the saw. Because, in the northern woods in particular, every tree is, you know, the size of your arm or leg. You can chop it down with an ax-

Lex Fridman 23:50 So an ax is fine.

Jordan Jonas 23:50 ... and a couple swings. Yeah, yeah, you don't really need the saw. Um, and so it was handy at times, and useful, but I think it was my ... If I had to do nine items, I would have been just fine without the saw.

Lex Fridman 24:02 So two nets would just expand your, uh ...

Jordan Jonas 24:06 Food-gathering potential. (laughs)

Lex Fridman 24:09 (laughs) Yeah, and then the, in terms of trapping, y- you were okay with just the little you brought?

Jordan Jonas 24:15 This, the snare wire was good. Um, I ran some, you know, I put out-... I used all my snare wire. I ran trapline, which is just a series of traps through the woods and brush. Every place you see sign, put a snare, put a little mark on the tree, so that I knew where that snare was, and just make these paths through the woods. And I put out, you know, I don't know how many, 150, 200 snares. So, every day, I'd get a rabbit or two out of 'em. And then, so I had a lot of rabbits, but, uh-

Lex Fridman 24:46 (laughs) Yeah.

Jordan Jonas 24:46 ... once I got the moose, I actually took all those snares down, 'cause I didn't want to catch anything needlessly. And well, you come to find out, you can't live off of rabbits. Man cannot live off a rabbit alone, (laughs) as it turns out.

Lex Fridman 24:57 So, you set up a huge number of traps.

Jordan Jonas 25:00 Mm-hmm.

Lex Fridman 25:01 You were also fishing, and then always on the lookout for, uh, moose.

Jordan Jonas 25:08 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 25:09 So, like, what, what's, in terms of survival, if you were to do it over again, over and over and over and over, like, how do you, um, maximize your chance of having enough food to survive for a long time?

Jordan Jonas 25:21 Hmm. You have to be, you have to be really adaptable, because everything's gonna ... It's always gonna look different. Your situation, your location. I actually had a, what I thought was a pretty good plan going into Alone, and it just, uh, you know, the location didn't allow for what I thought it would.

Lex Fridman 25:37 What was the plan?

Jordan Jonas 25:38 Well, I thought I would just catch a bunch of fish, 'cause I'm on a really good fishing lake.

Lex Fridman 25:42 Mm-hmm.

Jordan Jonas 25:42 I would catch a whole bunch of fish, and let them rot for a little while, and then just drag 'em all through the woods into a big pile-

Lex Fridman 25:49 Mm-hmm.

Jordan Jonas 25:49 ... and then hunt a bear on that big fish pile.

Lex Fridman 25:53 (laughs) Wow.

Jordan Jonas 25:53 It's-

Lex Fridman 25:53 Yeah. Yeah.

Jordan Jonas 25:54 (laughs) That was the plan, and I thought ... But when I got there, uh, for one, I had a hard time catching fish off the bat. You know-

Lex Fridman 26:00 Mm-hmm.

Jordan Jonas 26:00 ... it would, they didn't come like I was hoping. And then for, for two, it had burned prior, so there were no berries. And so, or very few berries, which meant there weren't grouse, there weren't bear, there weren't ... You know, they had all gone to other places where the berries were. And so, what I had grown accustomed to kind of relying on in Siberia wasn't there there, you know? So, in, in Russia, which was a similar environment, it was just grouse and berries and fish, and grouse and berries and fish, and then occasionally, you know, you get a moose or something. But I had to reassess, which was part of me being grumpy at the start, like-

Lex Fridman 26:35 Mm-hmm.

Jordan Jonas 26:35 ... "This place sucks!" (laughs) And then, uh, and then once I reassessed, and, and, and you know, right away, I saw that there were moose tracks and such. So, I just started to plan for that. I moved my, uh, camp in a, into an area that was as removed as I could be from where all the action is, where the tracks were, so that I wasn't disturbing animal patterns. I made sure the wind, the predominant wind was blowing out my scent to sea, and, or you know, to the water. And then really, to be honest, if you wanna actually survive somewhere, it is different than Alone, but you do have to be active. And, and it has to ... You're gonna have to ... You're not gonna live ... You're not gonna be sustainable by, you know, starving it out. You have to fig- unlock the key that is sustainability. And I think there's a lot of areas that still have that potential, but you have to figure out what it is. It's usually going to be a combination of fishing, you know, trapping, and then hunting. And then once you have some s- ... The fishing and trapping will get you until you have some success hunting. And then that'll buy you three or four months of time to continue and, uh, you know, to keep hunting again. And you just have to roll off of that. But every, you know, depends on where you are, what, (laughs) what opportunities are there.

Lex Fridman 27:48 So, okay, so that's the process.

Jordan Jonas 27:49 Mm-hmm.

Lex Fridman 27:49 Fishing and trapping until you're successful at hunting.

Jordan Jonas 27:52 Mm-hmm.

Lex Fridman 27:52 And then the successful hunt, uh, buys you some more time.

Jordan Jonas 27:56 Mm-hmm. Right. Right.

Lex Fridman 27:58 And then just go year-round like this.

Jordan Jonas 27:58 And then you just go year-round like that. And that's how people did it forever. The pressure wa- ... I noticed it, you know, with the ... You got that moose, and then you're happy for a week or so, and then you start to be like, "You know, this is finite."

Lex Fridman 28:10 Mm-hmm.

Jordan Jonas 28:10 "I'm gonna have to do this again." (laughs) And you'd imagine if you had a family that was gonna starve if you weren't successful, you know, this next time. And there's just always that pressure, you know? Uh, it made, it made me really, like, appreciate the amount of ... what people had to deal with.

Lex Fridman 28:25 Well, in terms of being active, like, so you have to do stuff all day. So you get up-

Jordan Jonas 28:30 Get up.

Lex Fridman 28:31 ... so you're get- and planning.

Jordan Jonas 28:32 Mm-hmm.

Lex Fridman 28:32 Like, "When am I gonna ..."

Jordan Jonas 28:33 (laughs)

Lex Fridman 28:34 In the, in the midst of the frustration-

Jordan Jonas 28:35 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 28:35 ... you have to figure out, like, what's, what's the strategy? Like, how do you put up all the traps? And what's ... Is that a decision-

Jordan Jonas 28:41 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 28:41 ... like, you know, most people, like, sit at, at their desk, and have, like, a calendar-

Jordan Jonas 28:45 (laughs)

Lex Fridman 28:46 ... or whatever? Are you like figuring out, like-

Jordan Jonas 28:47 One thing about w- wilderness life in general is, it's remarkably less scheduled than-

Lex Fridman 28:53 (laughs)

Jordan Jonas 28:54 ... than anything (laughs) we deal with. Schedules are fairly unique to all the modern contexts. Now, you'd wake up, and you just started ... You have a s- you know, confluence of things you wanna do, things you need to do, things you should do, and you just kinda tackle 'em as you see fit, as it flows in, you know? So, uh, and that's actually one of the things that your, people really, that I really appreciate about that lifestyle, is it really is, you're kind of in that flow. And so I'd wake up and be like, "Uh, maybe I'll go fishing." And then I'll wander over and fish, and then I'd be like, "Ah, I'm gonna go check the trapline, add every day." If I add five or 10 snares, you know, you're constantly adding to your productive (laughs) potential. And then, uh, but it, nothing's really scheduled. You're just kinda flying by the seat of your pants.

Lex Fridman 29:41 But then there's a lot of instinct that's already loaded in.

Jordan Jonas 29:45 Oh, there's so much. Yeah.

Lex Fridman 29:46 Like, you already ... There's just, like, wisdom from all the times you've had to do it before.

Jordan Jonas 29:49 Mm-hmm.

Lex Fridman 29:50 That you're just actually operating a lot on instinct. Like you said, where to find, to place the shelter. Like, how hard is that calculation, where to place the shelter?

Jordan Jonas 29:58 If you're like dropped off, and this is all new to you, of course, all those things are gonna be things you have to really think through and plan. When you're thinking about a shelter, you have to think of, "Oh, here's a nice flat spot." You know, that's a good place. But also, is there firewood nearby? And if I'm gonna be here for months, is there enough firewood that I'm not gonna be walking a half a mile to get a dry piece of wood?

Lex Fridman 30:17 Mm-hmm.

Jordan Jonas 30:17 Is the water nearby? Is there ... Is it, is it, uh, somewhat open but also protected from the elements? 'Cause sometimes you get a beautiful spot, and it was great on a calm day, and then the wind comes, like (imitates wind blowing) And so, there's all these factors, you know, even down to taking in what game is doing in the area also, and how that relates to where your shelter is.

Lex Fridman 30:38 You just said you have to consider where the action will be, and you want to be away from the action, but close enough to it?

Jordan Jonas 30:44 To see it. Yeah, you want to be ... yeah, right. And so, uh, ideally, you know, and it depends. You're always going to make give and takes. And one thing with shelters and location selection and stuff, that's another thing, you just have to trust your ability to adapt in those situations. Because y- everybody has a particular, you know, you got an idea of a shelter you're going to build. But then, you get there, and maybe there's a good cliff that you can incorporate, you know? Or may- and then, you just become creative, and that's a really fun process too, to just allow your creativity to try to flourish in that.

Lex Fridman 31:14 What kind of shelters are there?

Jordan Jonas 31:16 There's all kinds of philosophies in shelters, which is fun. Uh, people, it's fun to see people try different things. Mine was fairly basic, for the simple reason that I- I had lived, you know, winters, through winters in Siberia in a teepee.

Lex Fridman 31:30 (laughs)

Jordan Jonas 31:30 So, I knew I didn't need, like-

Lex Fridman 31:31 Yeah.

Jordan Jonas 31:31 ... anything too robust. As long as I had calories, I'd be warm, and I wasn't particularly worried about the cold. Um, but you'll see. So, I kept my shelter really pretty simple, with the idea that I built a simple A-frame-type shelter, and then most of my energy is gonna f- be focused on getting calories. And then, of course, there's always going to be downtime. And in that downtime, I can tweak, modify, improve my shelter, and that'll just be a constant process, that by the, by the time you're there a few months, you'll have all of the kinks worked out. It'll be a really nice little setup. But you don't have to start with that, necessarily, 'cause you got other needs you gotta focus on. That said, you still see a lot of people pre- on Alone that really focus on, you know, building a log cabin, 'cause they want to be secure, or, uh, incorporating the, you know, whatever the earth has around. Whether it be rocks, or whether it be digging a hole. You know, and we've seen some really cool shelters. And I, I, I'm not gonna knock it. Other ... Everybody's got ... There's all these different strokes for different folks. But I, my, my particular idea was to keep it fairly simple, improve it with time, but spend most of my energy ... You know, with a shelter, you really need to think about, it can't be smokey, 'cause that'll be miserable.

Lex Fridman 32:43 Mm-hmm.

Jordan Jonas 32:43 But it is nice to have a fire inside, so you need to have a fire inside that's not gonna l- be dangerous, and, uh, smoke-free, and then also airtight. Because you're never gonna have a warm shelter out there, 'cause you don't have seals and things like that. But, as long as the air's not moving through it, you can have a warm enough shelter.

Lex Fridman 33:03 With a fire?

Jordan Jonas 33:03 With a fire, and dryer socks and stuff.

Lex Fridman 33:06 (laughs) How do you get the smoke out of the shelter?

Jordan Jonas 33:09 If you have good clay and mud and rock, you can build yourself a fireplace, which is surprisingly not that hard. You know, you just-

Lex Fridman 33:15 Oh, really?

Jordan Jonas 33:15 Yeah. It- it's a fun thing to do. It works well. You know (laughs) dig a little hole, start stacking rocks around it. Make it a ... Make sure there's an opening, and it actually works. You know, um, so that's not as hard as you might think. Um, for me, where I was, I, I kind of came up with it as I was there, with my A-frame. You know, I, I hadn't built an A-frame shelter like that before, and so when I built it, and then I had put a bunch of tin cans in the ground so that air would get the fire.

Lex Fridman 33:45 Mm-hmm.

Jordan Jonas 33:45 So, it was fed by air, which helps create a draft.

Lex Fridman 33:48 Mm-hmm.

Jordan Jonas 33:48 Um, but, but I realized, in an A-frame, it really doesn't, the smoke doesn't go out very well. Even if you leave a hole at the top, it like collects and billows back down.

Lex Fridman 33:58 Mm-hmm.

Jordan Jonas 33:58 So, then I, uh, cut some of my tarp and made this ... and cut a hole in the, in the A-frame, and then I made like a hood vent that I could pull down and catch the smoke with.

Lex Fridman 34:09 I've seen it.

Jordan Jonas 34:10 And so, while the fire was going, it would just billow out the hood vent, and then when it was done burning and it was just hot coals, I could close it, seal it up, and keep the heat in. So, it actually worked pretty well.

Lex Fridman 34:21 So, start with something that kind of works, and then keep improving it.

Jordan Jonas 34:23 Yeah, exactly.

Lex Fridman 34:25 I always wonder, I mean, the, the, the log cabin.

Jordan Jonas 34:28 Mm-hmm.

Lex Fridman 34:29 It feels like that's a thing that takes a huge amount of work before work.

Jordan Jonas 34:32 Right. The difference between a log cabin and a warm log cabin (laughs) is like-

Lex Fridman 34:36 Yeah.

Jordan Jonas 34:36 ... an immense amount of work, and all the chinking, and all the door sealing, and, you know, the chimney has to fit. Uh, anyway, so otherwise, it's just going to be the same ambient temperature as outside.

Lex Fridman 34:47 Mm-hmm.

Jordan Jonas 34:47 So, uh, I don't think Alone's the proper context for a log cabin. I think like a log cabin's great in- as a hunting cabin. As a (laughs) you know like ... if you're going to have something for years. But in a three, six month scenario, I don't know that it's worth the calorie expenditure. (laughs)

Lex Fridman 35:04 And it, it is a lot of calories. But that's an interesting sort of metaphor of just like get something that works. You see a lot, a lot of this with companies.

Jordan Jonas 35:13 Mm.

Lex Fridman 35:13 Like successful companies. They, you know, get a prototype, get a system that's working, then improve fast.

Jordan Jonas 35:18 Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Lex Fridman 35:19 In response to the conditions, to the environment.

Jordan Jonas 35:21 Mm-hmm. Yeah, 'cause it's constantly changing.

Lex Fridman 35:23 Yeah.

Jordan Jonas 35:23 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 35:24 And you end up being a lot better if you're able to learn how to respond quickly. Uh, versus like having a big plan that takes a huge amount of time to, to accomplish. That's interesting.

Jordan Jonas 35:34 Right. And forcing that through the pipeline, whether or not it fits.

Jordan Jonas 35:38 Yeah. (laughs) Yeah.

Lex Fridman 35:38 Can you just speak to like the place you were? The, the Canadian arctic? It looked cold.

Jordan Jonas 35:43 Yeah. We were right near the Arctic Circle. I don't know, it was like 60 kilometers south of the Arctic Circle. So, uh, it was ... It's a really cool area, really remote. Thousands of little lakes. You know, when you fly over, you're just like, "Man, it's incredible. There must be so many of those lakes that people haven't been to." You know, it really was a neat area, really remote. And for the show's purpose, I think it was perfect, 'cause it did have enough game and enough different avenues forward that I think it really did reward activity.

Lex Fridman 36:13 Mm-hmm.

Jordan Jonas 36:14 So, I think, uh ... But it's a special place. It was, uh, Dene was the tribe that lived there, the Dene people. Which interestingly enough, here's a side note. When I was in Siberia, I floated down this river called the Podkamennaya Tunguska.

Lex Fridman 36:28 Mm-hmm.

Jordan Jonas 36:29 And you get to this village.... called Sulamite, and there's these Ket people, they're called. And there's only 600 of 'em left, but in, this is in the middle of Siberia, not in like the Pacific Coast. But their language is related to the Dene people. And so somehow, (laughs) you know, that connection was there thousands of years ago. Super interesting, but.

Lex Fridman 36:51 Yeah, so language travels, somehow.

Jordan Jonas 36:54 Right. And the remnants stayed back there. It's very interesting to think through history.

Lex Fridman 36:59 Yeah. Wi- within languages contains a history of a peoples, and, uh, it's interesting how that evolves over time.

Jordan Jonas 37:04 Mm-hmm.

Lex Fridman 37:05 And how wars tell the story. Like, language tells a story of conflict, and conflict shapes languaging.

Jordan Jonas 37:11 Right.

Lex Fridman 37:11 We get the, we get the result of that.

Jordan Jonas 37:13 Right. So fascinating.

Lex Fridman 37:15 And the barriers that language creates is also the thing that leads to wars and misunderstandings and all this kind of stuff.

Jordan Jonas 37:22 Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Lex Fridman 37:22 It's a fascinating tension.

Jordan Jonas 37:24 Mm-hmm.

Lex Fridman 37:24 Uh, but it got cold there, right?

Jordan Jonas 37:26 Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Lex Fridman 37:26 It got real cold.

Jordan Jonas 37:28 Yeah, I mean, I think, I don't know what the... I didn't have a thermometer but I imagine it probably got (Lex laughs) to negative 30 at the most. You know, like, it might've gotten... It would've definitely gotten colder had we stayed longer. But, uh, yeah, I- I... To be honest, I, I was just said I never felt cold out there. I was pretty, I had that one pretty dialed in. And then once you have calories, you can stay warm, you can stay active. You can, you know, you gotta dress warm. (laughs) You know, you don't... Never let... Oh, there's a good one if you're in the cold. Never let yourself get too cold because what happens is you'll stop feeling what's cold, and then frostbite, and then issues, and then it's really hard to warm back up. So every... I'd... It was so annoying. I'd be out going to ice fish or something, and then I would just notice that my feet are cold and you're just like, "Oh, dang it." I just turn around, go back, start a fire, dry my boots out, make sure my feet are warm, and then go again. I wouldn't ignore that, you know.

Lex Fridman 38:22 Oh, so you wanna be able to feel the cold?

Jordan Jonas 38:24 Yeah, you wanna make sure you're still feeling things and that you're not toughing through it, 'cause you can't really tough through the cold. It'll just get you, so.

Lex Fridman 38:32 What's your relationship with the cold?

Jordan Jonas 38:35 Um-

Lex Fridman 38:35 Psychologically? Physically?

Jordan Jonas 38:38 Uh, it's interesting. It... Well, I actually... There's just some part of it that really makes you feel alive, you know.

Lex Fridman 38:43 Okay.

Jordan Jonas 38:43 I'm imagining, you know, sometime in Austin here, you come, go out and it's hot and sweaty, and you're like, "Ugh." You get that kind of f-... It kind of saps you.

Lex Fridman 38:50 Mm-hmm.

Jordan Jonas 38:50 There's something about that brisk cold that hits your face, that you're like, "Boo-oo-oo." Wakes you up, makes you feel really alive, engaged. You know, it feels like the margins of air are smaller, so you're alert and engaged a little more. There is something that's a little bit life-giving just because you feel on an edge here a lot. You're on this edge. But you have to be alert because even s-... You know, some of the natives I lived with, the lady had face issues because she let her head get cold when they're on a snowmobile, hat was up too high. You know, that little mistake, and then it just freezes this part of your forehead, and then the nerves go, and then you got issues when just the hat wasn't high enough. So you gotta, kinda gotta be dialed in on stuff.

Lex Fridman 39:30 Well, there's a psychological element to just... I mean, it's unpleasant. The, if I were to think of what kind of unpleasant would I choose, you know, fasting for long periods of time.

Jordan Jonas 39:43 Mm-hmm.

Lex Fridman 39:43 Was going without food in a warm environment is way more pleasant-

Jordan Jonas 39:46 (laughs)

Lex Fridman 39:47 ... than, uh...

Jordan Jonas 39:48 Being fed in a cold environment?

Lex Fridman 39:49 Yeah, exactly.

Jordan Jonas 39:50 (laughs)

Lex Fridman 39:50 Like, if you were to choose survival-

Jordan Jonas 39:52 I'd choose the opposite. Yeah. (laughs)

Lex Fridman 39:53 Oh, yeah? Okay. Well, there you go. I wonder if that's... I wonder if you're born with that, or if that's developed, maybe your time in Siberia like you... Or, or do you gravitate towards the... I w- I wonder what that is 'cause I really don't like survival in the cold.

Jordan Jonas 40:07 Hmm. I think a little bit of it is learned. You, like, almost learn not... You learn not to fear it. You learn to kind of appreciate it. And a big part of that is, I mean, to be honest, it's, like, dressing warm, being in good... It's not that... You know, there's no secrets to that. It's you just can't beat the cold, so you just need to dress warm. The nati-... You know, all that fur, all that stuff.

Lex Fridman 40:30 Mm-hmm.

Jordan Jonas 40:31 And then all of a sudden, you have your little refuge, have a nice warm fire going in your teepee. You know, and then you, you... I bet you, you could learn to appreciate it.

Lex Fridman 40:41 Yeah, I think some of it is just opening yourself up to the possibility there's something enjoyable about it.

Jordan Jonas 40:47 Mm-hmm.

Lex Fridman 40:48 Like, here, I, I run in Austin all the time-

Jordan Jonas 40:50 Mm.

Lex Fridman 40:50 ... in like 100 degree heat.

Jordan Jonas 40:51 Uh-huh.

Lex Fridman 40:52 And I go out there with a smile on my face.

Jordan Jonas 40:56 (laughs)

Lex Fridman 40:56 And like, and learn to enjoy it.

Jordan Jonas 40:59 Oh, yeah. And...

Lex Fridman 40:59 And so you're just like... I, I look kinda like you (laughs) do in the cold.

Jordan Jonas 41:04 (laughs)

Lex Fridman 41:04 And just, I don't think I enjoy the heat, but you just allow yourself to enjoy it.

Jordan Jonas 41:07 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Lex Fridman 41:08 You j-

Jordan Jonas 41:08 I, I, I do feel that way. I mean, I, I don't mind the heat that much. But, uh, I think you could get to the place where you appreciated the cold. It's probably just a lack of...

Lex Fridman 41:18 Practice.

Jordan Jonas 41:19 It's kind of scary when you haven't done it, and you don't know what you're doing, and you go out and you feel cold. It's, like, not fun. But I bet you could, you'd enjoy it. You'll have to come out sometime in the winter. (laughs)

Lex Fridman 41:28 (laughs) 100%. Yeah, I mean, you're right. It does make you feel alive.

Jordan Jonas 41:31 Mm-hmm.

Lex Fridman 41:31 That i-... Like, maybe that's the thing that I struggle with is the time passes slower 'cause it-

Jordan Jonas 41:38 Hmm.

Lex Fridman 41:38 ... it does make you feel alive.

Jordan Jonas 41:39 (laughs)

Lex Fridman 41:39 You get to feel time. But then the flip side of that is you get to feel every moment, and you get to feel alive in every moment.

Jordan Jonas 41:47 Right. Yeah.

Lex Fridman 41:47 So it's that... It's, it's both (laughs) scary when you're inexperienced and, and beautiful when you are experienced.

Jordan Jonas 41:54 Mm-hmm.

Lex Fridman 41:54 Were there times when you got hungry?

Jordan Jonas 41:57 I got... Shot a rabbit on day one, and I snared a couple rabbits on day two. And then more and more as the time went. So I actually did pretty well on the food front. Uh, the other thing is when you have all those berries around and stuff, you do have an ability to, like, fill your stomach. And so you don't really notice if you're getting thinner or if you're losing weight. Um, so I can say on Alone, I was not that hungry. I've definitely been really hungry in Russia. There were times when, when I lost a lot of weight. Or, you know, I lost a lot more weight in Siberia than I did on Alone.

Lex Fridman 42:32 Oh, wow.

Jordan Jonas 42:33 At different times, so.

Lex Fridman 42:34 Okay, we'll have to talk about it.

Jordan Jonas 42:35 Mm-hmm.

Lex Fridman 42:36 So you, uh, caught a fish?You caught a couple?

Jordan Jonas 42:40 I think I caught, like, 13 or so. They didn't show a lot of them, but.

Lex Fridman 42:43 Wait, you caught 13 fish?

Jordan Jonas 42:45 (laughs) 13 of those big fish too. (laughs) Well, I caught a couple that were small.

Lex Fridman 42:49 This is like a meme at this point.

Jordan Jonas 42:51 That they didn't show it. Yeah, it was a...

Lex Fridman 42:52 You're a perfect example of a person who was thriving but surviving. (laughs)

Jordan Jonas 42:55 (laughs) I, I always thought, you know, this, this is in the, in hindsight. Again, when I was out there, I never let myself think, "You might win." I just was gonna be out there as long as I could and tried to remain pessimistic about it. (laughs) No, but then the, uh, but then I remember a thought that I was like, "I wonder if they're gonna be able to make this look hard?" You know?

Lex Fridman 43:13 Oh, yeah.

Jordan Jonas 43:13 I did have that thought at one point. And because it went pretty well, and I was, definitely it was, it was hard psychologically because I didn't know when it was going to end. Like, I thought this could go, you know, like I said, six months. It could go eight months, a year. And then you start to cau- you know, I had a two and a three-year-old, and you start to weigh in the, "Is it worth it if it goes a year?"

Lex Fridman 43:36 Mm-hmm.

Jordan Jonas 43:36 And it's not worth it if it goes eight months, and I still lose. So I feel like I had this pressure, and it was psychologically difficult for that reason. Physically, uh, it wasn't too bad. (laughs)

Lex Fridman 43:48 This is, uh, off mic we're talking about Gordon Ryan competing in Jujitsu.

Jordan Jonas 43:53 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 43:53 And, uh, maybe that's the challenge he also has to face, is to make things look hard. (laughs)

Jordan Jonas 43:59 (laughs)

Lex Fridman 43:59 Because there's, he's so dominant in the sport that s- in terms of the drama and the entertainment of the, uh, of the sport, and in this case of survival, it has to be difficult.

Jordan Jonas 44:11 You know, and I'm, I'll add that for sure though, that it's, it's the woods. It's nature. You never know how it's going to go.

Lex Fridman 44:17 You never know.

Jordan Jonas 44:17 You know what I mean? It's like every time you're out there, it's a different scenario. So, yeah, whatever, hallelujah, it went well. (laughs)

Lex Fridman 44:24 So, you, uh, you won after 77 days. How long do you think you could have lasted?

Jordan Jonas 44:29 When I left, I weighed what I do right now. So, I just weighed my normal weight. I had, you know, a couple hundred pounds of moose. I had at least a hun- you know, a hundred pounds of fish. I had, you know, a pile of rabbits.

Lex Fridman 44:42 Yeah.

Jordan Jonas 44:43 A wolverine. I had, you know, I had all this stuff, and I know, I hadn't gotten cold yet. I, I just thought, but in my head, I'd thought, "If I get to day 130 or 40, even if someone else has big game, I had a pretty good idea they might quit because it would be long, cold, dark days." And how miserable is that? Just it's so boring. It's freezing. And, and so I thought, the only time I thought I could think about winning is when I got to day 130 or 40. And I definitely had that, um, with what I had. Uh, now, maybe I would have got, you know, I probably would have gotten more. I had caught a, that big 20-something-pound pike-

Lex Fridman 45:28 Mm-hmm.

Jordan Jonas 45:28 ... on the last day I was there. Maybe catch some more of those. You know, I don't, you know, and I don't know, like, I don't know how many calories I had stored, but I had a lot.

Lex Fridman 45:36 Mm-hmm.

Jordan Jonas 45:37 And so how long would that have lasted me, assuming I didn't get anything else? It definitely would have m- I would definitely would have reached my goal of 130 or 40 days. And then after that, I thought we were just going to push into the who, you know, then it's just to see how much, who has what reserves and we'll go as far as we can. And that would get me through January into February. And I just thought, "Man, that's gonna be miserable for people." (laughs)

Lex Fridman 46:00 And you're like, "I can last through the misery."

Jordan Jonas 46:02 And I knew I could do it. Yeah, yeah.

Lex Fridman 46:04 Uh, what, what aspect of that is miserable?

Jordan Jonas 46:07 The hardest thing for me would have been the boredom, um, because it's hard to s- it's hard to stay busy when it's all dark out, when the ice is, you know, three, four foot thick. You can't fish. And, um, I just think, I think it would have just been really boring. You would had to have been a real zen master to push through it. But because I had experienced it to some degree, I, I knew I could. And then I think things that might, you know, you start thinking about family and this and that in those situations. And I just knew that those, because I had gone to all these trips to Russia for a year at a time, the time context was a little broader for me than I think for some people, because I, I knew I could be gone for a year and come back-

Lex Fridman 46:51 Mm-hmm.

Jordan Jonas 46:51 ... catch up with my loved ones, you know, bring what I got back, whether that'd be psychological, whatever it is, and we'd all enrich each other. And, and once it's in hindsight, that year would have been like that, talking about it. So I had that perspective, and it, so I knew I wasn't going to tap for any other reason, other than running out of food someday. So that was my stressor and then...

Lex Fridman 47:11 So, you're able to, given the boredom, given the loneliness, kind of zoom out and accept the passing of time?

Jordan Jonas 47:19 Mm-hmm.

Lex Fridman 47:19 Just let it pass.

Jordan Jonas 47:20 You know, for me, I'm an a- fairly ac-, I like to be active. And so I would try to think of creative ways to keep my brain busy. You know, we saw the, like, dumb rabbit fur skit. But then I did a whole bunch of, like, elaborate Normandy reinvasion-

Lex Fridman 47:34 (laughs)

Jordan Jonas 47:34 ... you know, invasion reenactments and stuff.

Lex Fridman 47:37 Nice.

Jordan Jonas 47:37 Like, there was, like, a, there was a, every day I would think of s- "I gotta think of something to make me laugh," you know, and then do some-

Lex Fridman 47:43 Mm-hmm.

Jordan Jonas 47:43 ... stupid skit. And then that would be, that would fill a couple hours of my time. And then I'd spend an hour or two, a couple, few hours fishing. And then you'd spend a few hours, you know, whatever you're doing.

Lex Fridman 47:53 Would you do that without a camera?

Jordan Jonas 47:55 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 47:56 (laughs)

Jordan Jonas 47:56 Oh, no. Uh, the, the, the skits? (laughs) Funny question. That's a good question. I don't know. I actually don't know. That, uh, I will say that was the, one of the advantages of being on the show versus, uh, in Siberia. So, no, because I didn't in Siberia just do skits by myself. (laughs) But I didn't film it. And so it was, it was, uh, quite nice to have this camera that made you feel like you weren't quite as alone as if you were just in the woods by yourself. And I think it, for me, I was able to, it's a, it was a pain. It was part of the cause of me missing that moose. You know, there was issues with it, but I just chose to look at it as, like, this is an awesome opportunity to share with people a part of me that most people don't get to see. You know, because... Uh, so that was-... I just chose to look at it that way. And it was an advantage, 'cause you could do stuff like that.

Lex Fridman 48:44 I think there's actual power to doing this kind of documenting, like talking to a camera or an audio recorder. Like that- that's an actual tool in survival.

Jordan Jonas 48:54 Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Lex Fridman 48:54 'Cause I- I had a little bit of experience-

Jordan Jonas 48:56 Right.

Lex Fridman 48:56 ... with being out a- alone in the jungle, and just being able to talk to a thing-

Jordan Jonas 49:01 Mm-hmm.

Lex Fridman 49:01 ... is much less lonely.

Jordan Jonas 49:03 It is. It really is. It's, uh, it can be a powerful tool, just sharing your experience. I had the f- I definitely had the thought, so going back to your earlier comment, but I definitely had the thought, if I knew I was the last person on earth, I wouldn't even bother. Like, I wouldn't do th- like, I would just probably not hunt. I'd just give up, I'm sure. Because even if I had a bunch of food and this and that. But because I knew you're, you know you're a part, you're sharing, it gives you a lot of strength to go through. And it- and having that camera just is, makes it that much more vivid, 'cause you know you're not just going to be sharing a vague memory but an actual experience and thought.

Lex Fridman 49:40 I think if you're the last person on earth, you would actually convince yourself.

Jordan Jonas 49:45 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 49:45 First of all, you don't know for sure if you're the last.

Jordan Jonas 49:47 (laughs)

Lex Fridman 49:47 There's always going to be-

Jordan Jonas 49:48 Hope dies last, yeah.

Lex Fridman 49:49 Hope, hope really die, does die last.

Jordan Jonas 49:52 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 49:52 You really don't know.

Jordan Jonas 49:53 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 49:53 You really, you really hope to find ... I mean, if you're, if like an apocalypse happens-

Jordan Jonas 49:57 Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

Lex Fridman 49:58 ... I think your whole life will become about finding the other person.

Jordan Jonas 50:01 It would be. And there's a chan- I mean, I, I'm, I guess I'm saying if you knew you were, for some reason knew you were the last-

Lex Fridman 50:06 Mm-hmm.

Jordan Jonas 50:06 ... I wonder if you would. I wonder if you ... That, that was the thought I had, if I knew I was the last person. Like, 'cause I, here I was having a good time, having fun fishing, plenty of food. But like, if I knew I was the last person on earth, I don't know that I would even bother. But now if that was for real-

Lex Fridman 50:22 I don't think-

Jordan Jonas 50:22 ... would I bother? That's the question.

Lex Fridman 50:23 No, no. I think if you knew, if somebody, some-

Jordan Jonas 50:26 (laughs)

Lex Fridman 50:26 ... some way you knew for sure, I think your m- mind will start doubting it.

Jordan Jonas 50:30 Hmm. Interesting.

Lex Fridman 50:31 That whoever told you you were the last person-

Jordan Jonas 50:33 (laughs)

Lex Fridman 50:33 ... whatever was-

Jordan Jonas 50:34 Right, right, right.

Lex Fridman 50:35 ... was lying.

Jordan Jonas 50:36 Right, right. The power of hope might be more, is stronger than-

Lex Fridman 50:39 More powerful than-

Jordan Jonas 50:40 ... than I accounted for in that situation. (laughs)

Lex Fridman 50:42 (laughs) Also, uh, you might, if you are indeed the last person, you might want to be documenting it for once you die, you know, an alien species come, comes about. 'Cause whatever happened on earth is a pretty special thing. And if you're the last one, you might be like the last person to tell the story of what happened. And so that's gonna be a way to convince yourself that this is important. And so the days-

Jordan Jonas 51:06 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 51:06 ... will go by like this, but it would be lonely.

Jordan Jonas 51:09 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 51:09 Boy, would that be lonely.

Jordan Jonas 51:10 Uh, it would be. Wow. It'd be delving into the dredges and the (laughs) depths of-

Lex Fridman 51:16 Yeah, I mean-

Jordan Jonas 51:17 ... of something.

Lex Fridman 51:17 ... there is going to be existential dread.

Jordan Jonas 51:19 Mm-hmm.

Lex Fridman 51:21 But also, I don't know, I think hope will burn bright.

Jordan Jonas 51:24 Hmm.

Lex Fridman 51:25 You'll be looking for other humans.

Jordan Jonas 51:26 That's, you know, one of the reasons I was looking forward to talking to you. Things I appreciate about you is you're- you're always, not out of naivety, but you always choose to look at the positive. You know what I mean?

Lex Fridman 51:37 Yeah.

Jordan Jonas 51:37 And I, and I think that's a, a powerful mindset to have. I appreciate it.

Lex Fridman 51:41 Yeah. That'd be a pretty cool survival situation though, if you're the last person on earth. (laughs)

Jordan Jonas 51:47 (laughs) If you could share it. (laughs)

Lex Fridman 51:51 (laughs) If you could share it. Yeah.

Lex Fridman 51:53 Um, like I said, many people consider you the most successful competitor on Alone. The other successful one is Roland Welker, Rock House guy.

Jordan Jonas 52:02 Oh, yeah. (laughs)

Lex Fridman 52:03 This is just a fun, ridiculous question-

Jordan Jonas 52:05 (laughs)

Lex Fridman 52:05 ... but head-to-head, who do you think survives longer?

Jordan Jonas 52:08 (laughs) Um, if you wanna get into the competitive side of it, I would just say, well, I've, I'm pretty dang sure I had more pounds of food. (laughs)

Lex Fridman 52:19 (laughs)

Jordan Jonas 52:19 But-

Lex Fridman 52:19 Just foodwise.

Jordan Jonas 52:19 And I didn't have the advantage of knowing when it would end, which I think would've been a great psy- psychological ...

Lex Fridman 52:26 Oh, yeah.

Jordan Jonas 52:26 It would've made it really easy. Once I got the moose, I could have shot the moose and just not stressed.

Lex Fridman 52:30 Yeah.

Jordan Jonas 52:30 That would've been like a ... And so that was a big difference between the seasons that I felt like ... I mean, I felt like the psychology of season seven, they kind of messed up by doing a 100-day cap. Because I, for my own experience, that was the hardest part. But R- Roland's a, uh, he's a beast.

Lex Fridman 52:47 So for people who don't know, they put a 100-day cap on, so it's whoever can survive 100 days, uh, for that season. It's interesting to hear that for you, the uncertainty, not knowing-

Jordan Jonas 52:58 Mm-hmm.

Lex Fridman 52:58 ... when it ends is-

Jordan Jonas 52:59 That was for sure it, yeah.

Lex Fridman 53:00 ... is the hardest.

Jordan Jonas 53:02 It was.

Lex Fridman 53:02 That's true.

Jordan Jonas 53:03 Mm-hmm.

Lex Fridman 53:03 'Cause like you wake up every day.

Jordan Jonas 53:05 I didn't know how to ration my food. I didn't know if, if I was gonna lose after six months and then it was all gonna be for naught. I didn't know if it w- You know, I just, there's so many unknowns. You don't know ... Like, like I said, if I shot a moose and it was 100 days, done. If I shot a moose and you don't know, it's like, "Crap, I could still lose to somebody else, but it's gonna be way in the future." (laughs) So anyway, that for me was definitely the, the hard part.

Lex Fridman 53:31 And when you found out that you won and your wife was there, it was funny because you were really happy. There was a great sort of moment of you, uh, reuniting. But also there's a state of shock of like ... (laughs)

Jordan Jonas 53:44 (laughs)

Lex Fridman 53:45 You look (laughs) you look like you were ready to go much longer.

Jordan Jonas 53:48 That was the most genuine shock I could have. I d- n- I hadn't even like entertained the thought yet. I didn't even-

Lex Fridman 53:54 Yeah.

Jordan Jonas 53:54 ... think it was a ... You'd hear the helicopters, and I just assumed there was other people out there. I just hadn't, I thought ... Like, you know, and for one, the previous person that had gone the longest had gone 89 days. So I just knew whoever else was out here with me, somebody's got that in their crosshairs. They're gonna-

Lex Fridman 54:12 Hm.

Jordan Jonas 54:12 ... get to 90. And they're not gonna quit at 90, they're gonna go to 100. You know, I just figured we can't start thinking about the end until a couple months from when it ended. So I was just shocked. I was ... And, and they tricked me pretty good. They know how to make you think you're not-

Lex Fridman 54:27 Mm-hmm.

Jordan Jonas 54:27 You know, that they're, you're not alone.

Lex Fridman 54:28 So they want you to do the surprise for the others.

Jordan Jonas 54:30 Yeah, they want it to be a surprise.

Lex Fridman 54:31 So you really weren't ... I mean, you have to do that, I guess, for survival. Don't be counting the days.

Jordan Jonas 54:36 No, I think that would be ... Uh, then, you know, you see that on, some of the people do that. I- for myself, that would be bad psychology, 'cause then you're just always disappointing yourself. You have to be resettled with the fact that this is gonna go a long time and suck. Once you come to peace with that, maybe you'll be pleasantly surprised. But-... you're not going to be constantly disappointed.

Lex Fridman 54:54 So, what was your diet like? Like, what was your eating habits like during that time?

Jordan Jonas 54:58 Um-

Lex Fridman 54:59 Like, how many meals a day? This is...

Jordan Jonas 55:01 (laughs)

Lex Fridman 55:02 (laughs) Like, what? (laughs)

Jordan Jonas 55:04 (laughs) I, uh... Oh, man. I don't know. I was-

Lex Fridman 55:06 Uh, is it one meal a day, or what?

Jordan Jonas 55:06 I was trying to eat the thing. I was, like, not trying to... The more the moose is hanging out there, the more the critters, every critter in the forest is trying to peck at it, or mice trying to eat it and stuff. So-

Lex Fridman 55:16 So, one of the ways you can protect the food is by eating it.

Jordan Jonas 55:20 Is to eat it. (laughs) So, I was having three good meals a day. And then I'd, like, cook up some meat and go to sleep. And then, uh, wake up in the middle of the night, because they're long nights, and, like, have some meat at night, eat a bunch at night. And then... So, I'd usually have a fish, fish stew for lunch, and then moose for breakfast and dinner. And then have some for a nighttime snack, 'cause the nights were long, so you'd be in bed, like, 14 hours, and wake up and eat, and dink around and go back to sleep.

Lex Fridman 55:49 Is it okay that it was a pretty low carb situation?

Jordan Jonas 55:52 Yeah, I actually felt really good. I tried to, I tried to, uh... I think I would have felt better if I would have had a higher percentage of fat. Because, you know, I- I- it's still over, more protein than if you're on a keto diet and you want a lot of fat. And so, I did, I did try to mix in, like, nature's carbs, different, like, reindeer lichen and things like that. But honestly, I felt pretty good on that diet. I will say.

Lex Fridman 56:15 How did you, uh... What's the secret to, like, protecting food? What are the different ways to protect food

Narrator 56:19 Yeah.

Jordan Jonas 56:19 Yeah. There's a lot of times, you know, in a typical situation in the woods hunting, you'll raise it up in a tree, in a bag. Put it in, like, a game bag so the birds can't peck at it, and hang it in a tree so that it cools. You gotta make sure first, to cool it, 'cause it'll spoil. So, you cool it by whatever means necessary. Hanging it in a cool place, letting the air blow around it. Um, and then you'll notice that every forest freeloader in the woods is gonna come and try (laughs) to steal your food.

Lex Fridman 56:48 Yeah.

Jordan Jonas 56:48 And it was just fun. I mean, it was, it was crazy to watch. It was like, all the jay, all the camp jays pecking at it, or... Everything I did, you know, was, was, uh, there was something that could get to it. If you put it on the ground, the mice get on it, and they poop on it, and they kind of mess it up. So, I, uh, ultimately, it kind of just dawned on me, "Shoot, I'm gonna have to build one of those Evenki, like, food caches." So, I did, and I put it up there. And I thought I kind of solved my problem. To, to be honest, the Evenki then, so they would have taken a page out of, like, they would have mixed me and Roland's solution. They build this tall stilt shelter and then put a box on the top that's enclosed. And then the bears can't get to it. The mice can't poop on it. The birds, the wolverine, you know, it's safe. And I never finished it. I- I- in hindsight, I don't actually know why. I think I was just, the way it timed, like, I didn't think something was gonna get up there. Then it did. And then I'd... You know, you're, like, counting calories and stuff. I should have, in hindsight, just boxed it in right away, but-

Lex Fridman 57:47 To get ready for the long, for the long haul.

Jordan Jonas 57:49 Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

Lex Fridman 57:50 Is, uh, rabbit starvation a real thing?

Jordan Jonas 57:52 Yeah. So, you can't just live off protein, and rabbits are almost just protein. I'd kill a rabbit, eat the innards and the brain and the eyes, and then everything else is just protein. And so, uh, it takes more calories to, you know, process that protein than you're getting from it, without the fat. So, you actually lose... I lost, I had, you know, a lot of rabbits. In the first 20 days, I had 28 rabbits or something. But I was losing weight at exactly the same speed as everybody else that didn't have anything. So, that's interesting.

Lex Fridman 58:24 That's insane.

Jordan Jonas 58:24 Yeah. And I- and I'd never tried that before. So, I was wondering if, "I'm catching a ton of rabbits, I wonder if I can last, what, six months on rabbits?" But, no, you just starve as fast as everybody else. And so, I had to kind of learn that on the fly and adjust.

Lex Fridman 58:36 I wonder what to make of that. Like, w- so you need fat to survive? Like, fundamentally, you need fat to survive?

Jordan Jonas 58:40 Mm-hmm. Yeah, that's the... Yeah. And you'll notice when the wolverine came or when animals came, they would eat the skin off of the fish. They would eat the eyes. You know, they'd steal the moose fat.

Lex Fridman 58:51 Eyes have fat.

Jordan Jonas 58:51 They'd leave all the meat. Yeah, like behind the eyes is a bunch of fat. So, yeah, you can kind of observe nature and see what they're eating and know where the gold is.

Lex Fridman 59:01 What do you like eating when you're, like, when you can eat whatever you want?

Jordan Jonas 59:04 Uh-

Lex Fridman 59:05 What, what do you feel best eating?

Jordan Jonas 59:06 What do I feel best? I just try to eat clean. I think... Or, I'm not, like, super strict or anything, but I think when I eat less carbs, I feel better.

Lex Fridman 59:15 Mm-hmm.

Jordan Jonas 59:15 Meat and vegetables. I like, we eat a lot of, you know, I eat a lot of meat. (laughs)

Lex Fridman 59:21 So, basically everything you ate on Loan plus some veggies?

Jordan Jonas 59:24 Plus veggies. (laughs)

Lex Fridman 59:25 (laughs)

Jordan Jonas 59:25 I'll throw in some buckwheat. I like buckwheat. (laughs) Like kashkaval.

Lex Fridman 59:29 Nice. Let's step to the, uh, the early days of Jordan.

Jordan Jonas 59:33 (laughs)

Lex Fridman 59:34 So, uh, your, uh, Instagram handle is hobojordo. So, early on in your life, you, uh, hoboed around the US on freight trains. What's the story behind that?

Jordan Jonas 59:47 My brother, when he was 17 or so, he just decided to go hitchhiking, and he hitchhiked down to Reno from Idaho, wherever you were, and, uh, ended up li- loving traveling but hated being dependent on other people. So, he ended up jumping on a freight train, and-

Lex Fridman 1:00:04 (laughs)

Jordan Jonas 1:00:05 ... and just did it. He honestly, he pretty much got on a train and traveled the country for the next eight years-

Lex Fridman 1:00:11 Yeah.

Jordan Jonas 1:00:11 ... on trains, lived in the streets and everywhere. But, uh, you know, he was sober, so it gives you a different experience than a lot. (laughs) But at one point, when I was, I guess, yeah, 18, he invited me to come along with him. He'd probably been doing it five or so, four or five years, and, uh, or more. And, uh, I said, "Sure." So, I quit my job and went out with him. Um, Hobo Jordo is a bit of an overstep. I feel self-conscious about that, 'cause I rode ac- I rode trains across the country, up and down the coast, back. You know, spent the better part of the year running around, riding trains and all the staying in places related to that. But all the people, you know, the real hobos, those guys are out there doing it for years on end. But it was such a-

Lex Fridman 1:00:54 (laughs)

Jordan Jonas 1:00:54 For me, what it felt like was a, it felt like a bit of a rite of passage experience, which is kind of missing, I think, in modern life. So, I did this thing that was a huge unknown. I- uh, Ben kind of was there with me and my brother for most of it.We traveled around, got-- pushed my boundaries in every which way, you know, froze at night and did all this stuff (laughs) . And then, and then at the end, I actually wanted to go back and go back home. And so I went on my own and went from Minneapolis back, you know, up to Spokane on my own, which was a fir- my first stint of time by myself for, like, a week, which was interesting.

Lex Fridman 1:01:31 A- Along with your own thoughts and

Narrator 1:01:32 Mm-hmm.

Jordan Jonas 1:01:32 With your own thoughts, it was my first time, and my life hadn't been like that, you know, and, and so it was, it was powerful at the time. You know what it did too? Is it gave me a whole different view of life, 'cause I had gotten a job when I was 13 and then 14, 15, 16, 17. And then I was just in the normal run of things, kind of, and then that just threw a whole different path into my life. And then I realized some of the things while I was traveling that I wouldn't experience again until I was living with natives and such. And that was, you know, you wake up, you don't have a schedule. You literally just have needs and you just somehow have to meet your needs. And so, uh, it's, it's a re- there's a really, uh, sense of freedom you get that is hard to replicate elsewhere. And so, uh, that was eyeopening to me, and I think once I did that, I went back. So I went back to my old job at the salad dressing plant and then (laughs) -

Lex Fridman 1:02:25 (laughs)

Jordan Jonas 1:02:25 ... uh, there was this old cross-eyed guy and he was, "Oh, Hobo Jordo is back!" And that's kind of where I got it, but (laughs) , but that freedom always was very important to me, I think, from that time on.

Lex Fridman 1:02:38 What'd you learn about the United States, about the people along the way? 'Cause I, I took a road trip across the US-

Jordan Jonas 1:02:44 Mm-hmm.

Lex Fridman 1:02:44 ... also, and there was a, uh, there's a romantic element there too of, like-

Jordan Jonas 1:02:48 Mm-hmm.

Lex Fridman 1:02:49 ... of the freedom, of the, well, maybe for me, not knowing what the hell I'm gonna do with my life-

Jordan Jonas 1:02:57 (laughs)

Lex Fridman 1:02:58 ... but also excited by all the possibilities. And, and then you meet a lot of different people and a lot of different kinds of stories. And also, like, a lot of people that support you for tr- traveling, 'cause they go, there's a lot of people kind of dream of-

Jordan Jonas 1:03:14 Right.

Lex Fridman 1:03:14 ... experiencing that freedom, at least the people I've met. And they usually don't, they usually don't go out, uh, outside of their little town. They, they have a thing and they, they have a family, usually, and they, they don't explore. They don't take the leap. And you can do that when you're young. I guess you could do that at any moment. Just say, "Fuck it," and leap into the, the abyss of being on the road. But anyway, what'd you learn about this country, about the people in this country?

Jordan Jonas 1:03:43 You're in an interesting context when you're on trains, 'cause the trains always end up in the crappiest part of town, you know?

Lex Fridman 1:03:50 (laughs)

Jordan Jonas 1:03:50 And they alwa- and you're always outside interacting, oh, the interesting things. We know, every once in a while, you'll have to hitchhike to get from one place to another. One interesting thing is you notice you always get picked up by the, you know, the poor people or some- you know, they're the people that empathize with you, stop-

Lex Fridman 1:04:06 Mm-hmm.

Jordan Jonas 1:04:06 ... and pick you up. You can go to whatever ghetto ev- you end up in, and people are really, "Oh, what are you guys doing here?" Real friendly-

Lex Fridman 1:04:14 Mm-hmm.

Jordan Jonas 1:04:15 ... and, and, and relatable. It kind of, you know, broadened your horo- my horizons, for sure, from being just an Idaho kid, and then meeting all these different people and, and just seeing the goodness in people and this and that. It's also very, th- you know, a lot of drugs and a lot of people with m- mental issues that you're friends with, dealing with, you know, all that kind of stuff, so.

Lex Fridman 1:04:38 Any memorable characters?

Jordan Jonas 1:04:39 (laughs) Well, there's a few for sure. I mean, a lot of them I still know that are still around, but the, uh... Rocco was one guy we t- traveled with, he's become like a brother. But he's, um, he was... He traveled with my, my brother for years, 'cause they were the two sober guys, kind of. And he, rather than traveling 'cause he was hooked on stuff, did it to escape all that. And so he was kind of sober and straight edge. And he always, he was, like, 5'7" Italian guy that was always getting in fights and, like (laughs) , has his own sense of, uh, ethics that I think is really f- interesting 'cause he's super honest, but, but he expects it of others. And so, it's funny, in the modern context, the thing that pops in my head is when he got a car s- for the first time, which wasn't that long, you know, he was in his 30s or something, uh, and he registered it, which he was mad about that he had to register. But then the next year, they told him he had to register again, and he's like, "What? Did you lose my registration?" (laughs)

Lex Fridman 1:05:39 (laughs)

Jordan Jonas 1:05:39 And he went down there to the DMV, chewed him out that he had to re-register 'cause he already registered, "Where's the paperwork?" And-

Lex Fridman 1:05:46 Yeah.

Jordan Jonas 1:05:46 But he just kind of views the world from a different lens, uh, I thought, uh, but on everything. He's a character. Now he just lives by digging up bottles and finding treasures in them.

Lex Fridman 1:05:55 But he, uh, notices the injustices in the world-

Jordan Jonas 1:05:57 He notices them-

Lex Fridman 1:05:58 ... and speaks up.

Jordan Jonas 1:05:58 ... in a very inter- and speaks up. And he's always like, "Why doesn't everybody else speak up about their car registration?" (laughs)

Lex Fridman 1:06:05 (laughs) Yeah.

Jordan Jonas 1:06:05 And, and then there was like, you know, Devo comes to mind 'cause he was such a unique character as far as just... For one, he would have lived to be 120 'cause the amount of chemicals and everything else you put into his body and still, "Hey, man!" You know (laughs) , one of those guys.

Lex Fridman 1:06:20 Yeah.

Jordan Jonas 1:06:20 You could always get a dime, you know, always, "Spare a dime? Spare a dime?" And you have bum change and, uh, I'd see him sometimes and I'd be gone and then go to New York to visit my sister or something, and I'd... Uh, sure enough, there's Devo on the street. What do you know? And then, uh, you go visit him in the hospital 'cause he got bit by twen- you know, 27 hobo spider bites (laughs) , you know? He was just always rough, but, uh, charismatic, vital. Like the vitality of life was in him, but it was just so permeated with drugs and alcohol too. It was kind of interesting.

Lex Fridman 1:06:49 I wonder what- 'cause I've met people like that.

Jordan Jonas 1:06:51 Mm-hmm.

Lex Fridman 1:06:51 They're like, they're just... Yeah, joy permeates their whole way of being.

Jordan Jonas 1:06:55 Mm-hmm.

Lex Fridman 1:06:55 And they're like, they've been through some shit.

Jordan Jonas 1:06:57 Mm-hmm.

Lex Fridman 1:06:57 They have scars, they've got-

Jordan Jonas 1:06:58 Mm-hmm.

Lex Fridman 1:06:59 They're rough, but they've always got a big smile. There's a guy I met in the jungle named Pico. He lost a leg and he, uh-... drives a boat, and he just always has a big smile, even given that, like, the hardship he has to get through.

Jordan Jonas 1:07:13 Mm-hmm.

Lex Fridman 1:07:14 E-everything requires a huge amount of work, but he's just, big smile-

Jordan Jonas 1:07:17 (laughs)

Lex Fridman 1:07:18 ... and those stories in those eyes.

Jordan Jonas 1:07:19 There's something about, yeah, enduring difficulty that makes you able to appreciate life and look at it and smile.

Lex Fridman 1:07:27 Any advice if I were to take a road trip again? Or if somebody else is thinking of hopping on a freight train?

Jordan Jonas 1:07:33 (laughs)

Lex Fridman 1:07:34 Or hitchhiking?

Jordan Jonas 1:07:34 It's way easier now 'cause you have a map on your phone.

Lex Fridman 1:07:36 (laughs) Yeah.

Jordan Jonas 1:07:37 You know where you're going. You're kind of cheating, though.

Lex Fridman 1:07:38 It's not about the desti- 'Cause the map is about the destination.

Jordan Jonas 1:07:41 Right.

Lex Fridman 1:07:42 Uh, but here, it's like, you don't really give a damn.

Jordan Jonas 1:07:44 Yeah, right. Trains, where are you going?

Lex Fridman 1:07:45 Yeah.

Jordan Jonas 1:07:45 You're not going anywhere. (laughs)

Lex Fridman 1:07:47 (laughs) Exactly. ƒĺŷḿ.

Jordan Jonas 1:07:49 It's... I say do it, like, go out and do things, especially when you're young. Uh, experiences and stuff help create the person you will be in the future. Putting, doing things that you think, like, "Oh, I don't want to do that, I'm a little scared of that," I mean, that's what you gotta do. You just get out of your comfort zone, and you will grow as a person, and you'll go through a lot of wild experiences along the way. Say yes to life in that way.

Lex Fridman 1:08:12 Say yes to life, yeah. I love the boredom of it.

Jordan Jonas 1:08:14 Freight train riding is very boring. (laughs)

Lex Fridman 1:08:17 (laughs) Yeah, okay.

Jordan Jonas 1:08:18 And, like, you'll wait for hours for a train that never comes, and then you'll go to the store and come back and it'll be gone. You're like, "No!" (laughs) And, but I remember we went to jail, we got out, and then... (laughs) Uh...

Lex Fridman 1:08:29 Wait, how'd you end up in jail?

Jordan Jonas 1:08:30 Oh, you know, it was-

Lex Fridman 1:08:32 (laughs) Things.

Jordan Jonas 1:08:33 ... (laughs) trespassing on a train. But we were, we were riding a train, and my brother woke up and he had a dead owl land on his head, and it, like, hit the train and fell on him. And we were, like, woke up, and we were laughing, like, "That's got to be some kind of bad omen." (laughs)

Lex Fridman 1:08:47 (laughs) Insane, yeah.

Jordan Jonas 1:08:47 And then we were, like, looking out of the train, and we saw a train worker look and saw us, and he went, "Phew." Like, "Oh, we know that's a bad omen." (laughs)

Lex Fridman 1:08:55 (laughs)

Jordan Jonas 1:08:55 Anyway, sure enough, the police stopped the train. Somebody had seen us on it, and they searched it, got us, and threw us in jail. It was not a big deal. We were in jail a couple of days. And then they, uh... Uh, but when we got out, of course they put us... We were in some podunk town in Indiana, and we didn't know where to catch out of there. And so, we were at some factory, and we just, abandoned factory, and we were raided there for, like, four days. No train that was going slow enough that we could catch. And then, we found this big old roll of aluminum foil, and out of the... I gotta apologize to this woman, 'cause we were so bored just sitting there, we built these, like, hats, you know-

Lex Fridman 1:09:29 Mm-hmm.

Jordan Jonas 1:09:29 ... with like horns coming out every which way, and loops, and just sitting there. (laughs) And then it was at night, and some minivan pulled up to this train that was going by too fast. (laughs)

Lex Fridman 1:09:37 (laughs)

Jordan Jonas 1:09:37 We were like, "Vroom, vroom, vroom," and went up and, like, circled their car.

Lex Fridman 1:09:41 Just entertaining yourself.

Jordan Jonas 1:09:41 Entertaining yourself with whatever you can.

Lex Fridman 1:09:43 Yeah.

Jordan Jonas 1:09:43 The poor lady was terrified.

Lex Fridman 1:09:44 So, hitchhiking was tough?

Jordan Jonas 1:09:46 I didn't like hitchhiking, just 'cause you're depending on other people. And it is not... I, I don't know why. You just want to be independent. But you do meet really cool people a lot of times. There's really nice people that pick you up. And, and that's cool. But I just personally actually didn't do it a lot. Um, and I wasn't... You know, if you're on the streets