Josh Barnett: Philosophy of Violence, Power, and the Martial Arts | Lex Fridman #165

1. 0:00 – 2:07

   Introduction

   1. LFLex Fridman0:00

      The following is a conversation with Josh Barnett, one of the greatest fighters and submission wrestlers in history, with an epic 25-year career that includes being the UFC heavyweight champion and countless other accolades. He also happens to be one of the most intelligent and brutally honest human beings in all of martial arts, and especially so about his appreciation of and fascination with violence. Quick mention of our sponsors, which feels ridiculous to say after that introduction. Munk Pack low carb snacks, LMNT electrolyte drinks, Eight Sleep self-cooling mattress, and Rev transcription and captioning service. Click the sponsor links to get a discount and to support this podcast. As a side note, let me say that I've been a fan of Josh Barnett for a long time. This conversation was indeed a long time coming, and I'm sure we'll talk many times again. For what it's worth, I'm a student of combat sports and admire when they're done at the highest level, either through masterful execution of skill or relentless dominance of pure guts. For context, I'm a black belt in jiu-jitsu and have competed in wrestling, submission grappling, jiu-jitsu, judo, and even catch wrestling, which is a variant of submission grappling that Josh is one of the great practitioners, scholars, and teachers of. I could probably talk for hours about what I've learned from my time on the mat. But if I were to say one thing, it is that the mat is honest. You can't run away from yourself when you step on the mat. It reveals your fears, the lies you might tell yourself, all the delusions you might have, or at least I had, that there's anything in this world that can be achieved except through blood, sweat and tears. That honesty taken to the highest levels, as is the case with Josh, creates the most special of human beings and definitely someone who's fascinating to talk to. If you enjoy this thing, subscribe on YouTube, review it on Apple Podcast, follow on Spotify, support on Patreon, or connect with me on Twitter @lexfriedman. And now here's my conversation with Josh Barnett.

2. 2:07 – 7:25

   Nietzsche

   1. LFLex Fridman2:07

      Who were the philosophers and philosophical ideas that influenced you the most?

   2. JBJosh Barnett2:11

      Are we just jumping right in? That's it?

   3. LFLex Fridman2:13

      We're right in, into the deepest.

   4. JBJosh Barnett2:15

      We're not... No, no foreplay on camera?

   5. LFLex Fridman2:16

      (laughs)

   6. JBJosh Barnett2:16

      All right. I had an interesting philosophical journey, at least I think it's interesting. And that was, I think as far as organized philosophy or maybe, uh, auth- authen- authentic's not the right word, but, like, um, yeah, we'll say organized. Um, I would say that Nietzsche is probably one of the people with the most influence on, on me. Uh, but I also feel like, to a degree, your personality, uh, will oftentimes dictate what philosophers that you can-

   7. LFLex Fridman2:52

      Connect with you.

   8. JBJosh Barnett2:52

      ... you can vibe with. Yeah.

   9. LFLex Fridman2:53

      So what, what, what ideas from Nietzsche? Was it the, the Ubermensch?

   10. JBJosh Barnett2:56

       Definitely the Ubermensch is, is huge to me because I see it as an extension of basically the religious concepts of God and higher ideals, but just put into a different, a, a secular context. And the idea also that, um, the Ubermensch is a striving and overcoming, you know, something that you're always working towards that very few will ever... It, it's not like the, the concept that you can just make them. It doesn't happen that way. It d- and it's not based simply upon if you were, say, put through a genetic program and, and, and turned into a super soldier. Like, that wouldn't, that wouldn't make it, you know? That's, like, the, the, the very surface level and incorrect understanding of what the Ubermensch is. The Ubermensch is the idea of this, this kind of, uh, human that, that transcends all the, the weaker, lower aspects of humans, which we're full of. But I also think that there's an element in Nietzsche's writing that suggests that it's not something you can even be in all the time. Like, it's even-

   11. LFLex Fridman4:02

       Mm-hmm.

   12. JBJosh Barnett4:02

       ... a temporary state because it's not something that we're capable of maintaining.

   13. LFLex Fridman4:05

       It's something to strive for, like a morality, uh, an image, an ideal-

   14. JBJosh Barnett4:12

       Mm-hmm.

   15. LFLex Fridman4:12

       ... a set of principles that we can connect to that doesn't rely on other worldly kind of, uh, out there things.

   16. JBJosh Barnett4:20

       Yeah, and with-

   17. LFLex Fridman4:20

       Just deeply human.

   18. JBJosh Barnett4:21

       ... with Nietzsche, I feel like the concept of the Ubermensch, um, is something built on authenticity as well as Heidegger would say, like, Dasein, right? So when you are authentic and Heidegger being a, a follower of Nietzsche's and highly influenced by him, uh, with... I think that the Ubermensch is a example of authenticity in that it isn't about trying to be anything that you cannot be or to go against who you are, but to actually understand that, accept that, and then work with what you can work with and, and, and create from your lump of clay that is you. Because I can't become... Certain, there's certain things that are just not gonna happen for me because it's not in my proclivity. I mean, I'm never gonna be, you know, five foot tall and 120 pounds. I mean, that, again, (laughs) I guess.

   19. LFLex Fridman5:15

       (laughs)

   20. JBJosh Barnett5:15

       But, uh, um, but I know... But as you get more in tune with who you are, as you start learning more about what unique things, or at least what that, that combination that makes you, that Gestalt part of yourself, what those things are and how you can use them, then, you know, you can work towards being that ult- taking what that is and seeing if you can get to that point. Now, the likelihood is no, maybe probably never. I mean, but we can never achieve Godhood yet, you know, religion is, is, is a constant, you know, striving and a look at the, a higher ideal concept. Even if it's multiple gods or one God, it's still essentially all built around this concept. Like, I, I, I like the idea of, uh, Catholic's original sin. If you think of sin not as evil, but as, you know, missing the mark, the archer's term where it derives or even, like, in Spanish, you know, without. So as being...... if you accept that you are imperfect, if you accept that it- you're- you need to constantly strive even against yourself-

   21. LFLex Fridman6:16

       Mm-hmm.

   22. JBJosh Barnett6:16

       ... because you (laughs) you will figure out the best ways at which to submarine your own capabilities, submarine your own dreams and wishes and whatever. You will ruin them, more than anything else. And you will tell yourself that you ruined them on purpose, for a good reason, or you'll say that you'll figure out a way to- to put it on everything else but yourself. And so the idea of thinking of, "Well, as I'm starting off on this whole thing, I got a lot of work to do, and that's just the way it is, and I gotta figure out what areas those are gonna be." And so, you know, I thought, "Oh, yeah, if I think of orig- original sin actually can be, uh, that can be kind of a- a clever idea," but it's also just accepting that we're all uniquely strange and unequal in our own ways, but we have to-

   23. LFLex Fridman7:01

       Well-

   24. JBJosh Barnett7:01

       ... figure out how that fits in.

   25. LFLex Fridman7:02

       ... the word, uh, authenticity, kind of connects to all of that. So striving to be your authentic self means figuring out exactly the shape of the flaws, the- the- the character of your, like, little demons that you get to play with, and around them, finding a path to whatever the hell, uh, ideal versions of yourself you can carve and pretending like that's- such a thing is even possible.

3. 7:25 – 22:37

   Good and Evil

   1. LFLex Fridman7:25

      The other idea about Nietzsche is, uh, on his idea of morality, he presents the argument that, uh, morality is a human illusion, and that, uh, you know, there's not such a thing as good and evil, and these are all kind of constructs. Do you think there's such a thing as, uh, good and evil that's connected to some objective reality?

   2. JBJosh Barnett7:45

      I think that there are some... I actually do believe that there are some universals. I'm not Kantian in any way, but I do think that there are some universals. And the thing that actually brought me to even the concept of that was Jung. So, you know, Jung's concept of the collective unconsciousness and then taking that thought and then applying it to looking through his- history and, uh, the most varied history you can find. Uh, so I would say probably religion is your earliest one to- that you can get for- for written history or, uh, written examples of human behavior and psychology at its- at- at the- the furthest that we can look into it, uh, with- uh, you know, from man's hand to whatever the medium is, cuneiform or whatever. But as you do that, and then, let's say, going from Mesopotamia to India to, you know, Europe to... and just going from all these places, as disparate as they may seem, as many different cultures and ethnicities and religions, and how the religions will- will vary quite a bit from monotheist to, you know, uh, mono- uh, polytheist and so on and so forth. But then just seeing how there's all the through lines. And of course Campbell, he did this, uh, much earlier than- than- than me thinking about it. But, uh, I think that by looking at things that way and starting to find the threads instead of always just looking at everything as being its own compartmentalized concept, as if it only applies to this time, this people, like getting overly PoMo about it is just a really idiotic-

   3. LFLex Fridman9:19

      What's PoMo?

   4. JBJosh Barnett9:20

      ... like postmodern.

   5. LFLex Fridman9:21

      So you- you think there- there is a, just like with Joseph Campbell, there's a thread that connects all of these stories, narratives that we constructed for ourselves as we evolve, and that thread is grounded in some kind of absolute ideas of maybe on the morality side, which is the trickiest one, of good and evil?

   6. JBJosh Barnett9:39

      Somewhat, yeah. I think that a lot of this stuff is just derived from a biological perspective. I feel like these things are in- innate within us. Like-

   7. LFLex Fridman9:47

      Do you think our- innately humans are good? Like we-

   8. JBJosh Barnett9:50

      No. (laughs) I don't.

   9. LFLex Fridman9:52

      (laughs) Okay.

   10. JBJosh Barnett9:52

       I feel like... I also feel like there's an issue of scale too. Like, um, like Nassim Taleb likes to talk about how he views his- the way he interacts with- with groups in terms of scale. You know, what is this thing about like at a- at the familial level, I'm a- I'm a communist, and then at the- the civic level, I'm a- I'm a Republican or something, and at this other level, I'm a... and then it goes on. At the widest level, he's a libertarian or something of that ni- nature, you know?

   11. LFLex Fridman10:20

       Like fundamentally, human interaction changes...

   12. JBJosh Barnett10:22

       On scale.

   13. LFLex Fridman10:23

       ... on scale.

   14. JBJosh Barnett10:23

       And scale, and also, uh, from, uh, you know, subjective to the environment around them. So- and I don't even mean environment just in the sake of physical environment, uh, nature, right? Like nature's constantly trying to murder you. Well, it's not really trying, it's just nature's being nature.

   15. LFLex Fridman10:39

       (laughs) Yeah.

   16. JBJosh Barnett10:39

       The universe is the universe, and, uh, at times it takes you out. (laughs) It just... Not with any particular, uh, compunction or prejudice. It just, "Oops." You know, "Sorry, there's no more dodos. Uh, my bad," you know?

   17. LFLex Fridman10:53

       But don't you think the particular flavor of the complexity that is the human mind was created... Like, let me make an argument for that p- all people are fundamentally good. (laughs)

   18. JBJosh Barnett11:04

       Okay.

   19. LFLex Fridman11:05

       Is, uh, there's an evolutionary advantage to being- to striving to, uh, cooperate-

   20. JBJosh Barnett11:12

       Mm-hmm.

   21. LFLex Fridman11:13

       ... to add more love to the world-

   22. JBJosh Barnett11:15

       Mm-hmm.

   23. LFLex Fridman11:15

       ... of like compassion, empathy-

   24. JBJosh Barnett11:16

       Mm-hmm.

   25. LFLex Fridman11:16

       ... all that kind of stuff, and that the very thing that created the human mind was this evolutionary advantage, whatever the force is behind this-

   26. JBJosh Barnett11:26

       Mm-hmm.

   27. LFLex Fridman11:26

       ... evolutionary advantage. And-

   28. JBJosh Barnett11:28

       At scale, yes. So when we're dealing with a-

   29. LFLex Fridman11:31

       (laughs)

   30. JBJosh Barnett11:31

       ... small tribe, sure.
4. 22:37 – 24:35

   Joe Rogan library

   1. LFLex Fridman22:37

      uh, but on the Library of Alexandria thing, yes. (laughs) Uh, be- because you were on Joe Rogan, it does make me really sad, and I realize that I'm just probably being romantic, that his, most of his library of interviews that were on YouTube-

   2. JBJosh Barnett22:54

      Mm-hmm.

   3. LFLex Fridman22:55

      ... have now been taken down-

   4. JBJosh Barnett22:56

      Yes, right.

   5. LFLex Fridman22:56

      ... because he went to Spotify. And that was the first, I'm probably an idiot, but it was the first time I realized that this knowledge that we've been building up on the internet doesn't necessarily last forever.

   6. JBJosh Barnett23:08

      No, it doesn't. Unless you preserve it. I mean, it's like all things. If, if you do not preserve them, if you do not make, uh, efforts, um, you know, so many of my, uh, I th- it just really brings to mind, or off the to- top of my head, all my, uh, so many friends of, uh, of mine that are Jewish, uh, you know, they're, they're basically secular. But yet, through even the secular, uh, aspect of just keeping the traditions alive, it's like, well, you could always pick a book and read abo- read about it, clearly. (laughs) It's called the Torah. But, um, if you don't put these things into action, if you don't make them a part of y- your consciousness, maybe even on the subconsciousness, just by, through, through repetition, they will die. They will become simply something that exists somewhere until you find it again. And Karl Gotch used to say something, um, he would say that, "I don't invent moves, I just rediscover them." But yet, Gotch and Billy Robinson also would understand, uh, that you, if someone's not carrying the, the torch, it'll go out. Now, that doesn't mean fire can't be rekindled, it just means that it, that torch no longer i- is lighting the way on, on this knowledge. And so, it's, it's important to be-... an individual, even on, on an individual level, to be a repository for, for aspects of knowledge.

5. 24:35 – 34:41

   Catch wrestling

   1. JBJosh Barnett24:35

   2. LFLex Fridman24:35

      You mentioned Gotch. You, um, consider yourself a catch, uh, wrestler.

   3. JBJosh Barnett24:43

      Mm-hmm.

   4. LFLex Fridman24:44

      Uh, so I've mentioned to you offline that I competed in a couple of catch wrestling tournaments.

   5. JBJosh Barnett24:49

      Mm-hmm.

   6. LFLex Fridman24:49

      Uh, can we go Wikipedia level at the very basic-

   7. JBJosh Barnett24:52

      Yeah.

   8. LFLex Fridman24:52

      ... you're the exactly right person to ask, what is catch wrestling and what are its defining principles?

   9. JBJosh Barnett24:58

      I would say the easiest way t- for us to talk about and give, uh, an overview of what catch is, in the simplest terms, is think of collegiate wrestling with submissions. That is essentially what catch is. And it's not surprising because collegiate wrestling is actually derived from catch as catch can. It's just that over time, certain aspects were, were, um, uh, removed from the competition structure so that they became, uh, null elements, things that were discarded. Uh, but it's funny that you can take a high level, um, amateur co- collegiate types, and you can show them a move and then add a little bit to it and go, "Oh, well, hey, that was just like what we already do here but except, oh, I didn't know you could take it all the way to this point." Or, you know, things of that nature, especially when it comes to professional wrestling, like, uh, teaching people, like, "No, that, that, I know you're just using this for, uh, in a show, but this is actually a real move and here's how it really feels."

   10. LFLex Fridman26:02

       And so collegiate wrestling, and wrestling in general for people who are not aware, is, is basically two people start on their feet.

   11. JBJosh Barnett26:08

       Mm-hmm.

   12. LFLex Fridman26:08

       And they have to s- score... They, they're trying to take each other down and they have to, um, they score points along the way. You can end matches by pinning them, for example-

   13. JBJosh Barnett26:19

       Mm-hmm.

   14. LFLex Fridman26:19

       ... on their back. I think one way to describe wrestling is, uh, it's very much about figuring out ways to establish control and leverage in these kind of, um, tie-ups, or there's different styles where you can do more from a distance to where it's more about the timing and all that kinda stuff. Ultimately, it's an art of, like, both upper body and lower body, and you could choose the different puzzles that you solve there. You could be attacking the head, the arms, you could be attacking the legs. There's also a part of collegiate wrestling that's on the ground.

   15. JBJosh Barnett26:54

       Mm-hmm.

   16. LFLex Fridman26:54

       That has more, uh, what's it called, like a referee's position or whatever.

   17. JBJosh Barnett26:58

       Right. The referee's position where you're on, uh, your hands and knees-

   18. LFLex Fridman27:01

       Yeah.

   19. JBJosh Barnett27:01

       ... basically. And so, uh-

   20. LFLex Fridman27:04

       Do you, do, do you understand what that's supposed to simulate? Why is that one of the standard positions?

   21. JBJosh Barnett27:08

       It's one of the standard positions because, one, it's one of the easiest ways to actually get up. Um, but two, it's because you cannot be on your back. If you're on your back, you're getting pinned. And m- uh, back exposure, or being pinned, is pretty much the universal wrestling, uh, thing. One, taking the guy from their feet to the floor, uh, and two, pinning them. As you go from like, was it, uh, Cornish wrestling, T- O- Turkish oil wrestling, Mongolian, sumo, uh, Indian, um, what they'll call Pehlwanani, it's also called Kushti, um, jujitsu, judo, um, so many of them is, like, there's a... U- sambo. Even if it doesn't end the match, it's still like one of the most important aspects of the competition itself across-

   22. LFLex Fridman28:03

       Well, so, but-

   23. JBJosh Barnett28:04

       ... almost every style.

   24. LFLex Fridman28:05

       And this is where submission, like catch wrestling or, uh, submission wrestling, or jujitsu feels different, which it seems like for m- most wrestling, for a lot of wrestling-

   25. JBJosh Barnett28:16

       Mm-hmm.

   26. LFLex Fridman28:16

       ... the dominance is the, is the goal. (laughs)

   27. JBJosh Barnett28:19

       Mm-hmm.

   28. LFLex Fridman28:20

       Uh, as opposed to submission.

   29. JBJosh Barnett28:22

       Mm-hmm.

   30. LFLex Fridman28:23

       Which I, I guess those two are related but dominating the position, so that's what pinning is. It's almost like breaking your opponent, like, breaking, uh, through all of their defenses to where they're completely defenseless and you could do anything with them that you want. Maybe that's, uh, Wikipedia definition of dominance, I don't know. (laughs)
6. 34:41 – 53:10

   Anarchy

   1. JBJosh Barnett34:41

      everything. And I'm not, by the way, not an ancap, so don't even, don't, don't hit your wagon to me on that one.

   2. LFLex Fridman34:47

      L- ancap is anarcho-capitalist.

   3. JBJosh Barnett34:48

      Anarchist, anarcho-capitalist, yes.

   4. LFLex Fridman34:50

      Yeah.

   5. JBJosh Barnett34:50

      Not a, not an ancap. Uh-

   6. LFLex Fridman34:52

      They have nice book, bookshops.

   7. JBJosh Barnett34:54

      Yeah, they do. I mean, I'm not-

   8. LFLex Fridman34:56

      (laughs)

   9. JBJosh Barnett34:56

      ... I'm not gonna, you know, sit here and, and shit talk ancaps. Uh, although I also used to get-

   10. LFLex Fridman35:00

       (laughs)

   11. JBJosh Barnett35:00

       ... into the conversations with, uh, with, uh, an ancom, uh, anarcho-communist, uh, a good friend of mine, and he would, he would bring up this stuff, and I'm like, "Yeah, cool, man, I'm down with anarchy. You ain't gonna like it."

   12. LFLex Fridman35:15

       (laughs) So-

   13. JBJosh Barnett35:15

       "What do you mean?" I go, "Because I'm gonna take on,"-

   14. LFLex Fridman35:17

       (laughs)

   15. JBJosh Barnett35:17

       ... "I'm gonna gather all kinds of people, I'm gonna make this, I'm gonna get the strongest together-"

   16. LFLex Fridman35:20

       Yeah.

   17. JBJosh Barnett35:20

       "... and I'm going to take your shit." (laughs)

   18. LFLex Fridman35:22

       Okay. Can I ask you, on that, uh, topic, I've, um, a friend of mine now, uh, a fellow Russian, uh, Ukrainian, uh, Michael Malice. He's cool.

   19. JBJosh Barnett35:33

       Oh, I, yeah, I'm familiar with Michael Malice.

   20. LFLex Fridman35:35

       (laughs)

   21. JBJosh Barnett35:35

       I watched a little bit of your guys', uh, conversation.

   22. LFLex Fridman35:38

       So this is really good to ask you, because, uh-

   23. JBJosh Barnett35:42

       I like how he's in the white suit n-

   24. LFLex Fridman35:44

       Yeah.

   25. JBJosh Barnett35:44

       ... and, and you're in the, the white and black, yeah.

   26. LFLex Fridman35:46

       But he, he lives in New York City.

   27. JBJosh Barnett35:48

       Mm-hmm.

   28. LFLex Fridman35:49

       He is, uh, espouses ideas of anarchism.

   29. JBJosh Barnett35:52

       Mm-hmm.

   30. LFLex Fridman35:53

       And his idea, and this is different than, um, sort of the Ayn Rand, uh, set of ideas, that there's a line between sort of capitalism that's backed by the state-
7. 53:10 – 1:10:11

   Hitler and Stalin

   1. LFLex Fridman53:10

      in anything. For example, I've been recently reading Mein Kampf.

   2. JBJosh Barnett53:14

      Mm-hmm.

   3. LFLex Fridman53:15

      Uh, just to tell-

   4. JBJosh Barnett53:15

      I'm, I'm... You know what, that's the thing. Even... There's something in... There's probably things in Mein Kampf that are not the surface level read. If you get all hung up on, on all, probably all his crap about, um, you know, his anger, anger at Jews and this and that, all this crap, and it's like, "Okay, yeah, that, that's right on the surface." Try to get below that. Try to see, you know, how is he, how is he creating the Jews as a cope somehow? Like, how is he-

   5. LFLex Fridman53:44

      Yeah.

   6. JBJosh Barnett53:44

      ... using... Why are, why are they his, his scapegoat? And I mean scapegoat in the... It's Rene Girard's, uh, concept of the scapegoat, I mean it in that sense. Whereas, uh, you know, Hitler uses... E- wants to make the, the Jews, uh, the scapegoat for World War I and everyone-

   7. LFLex Fridman54:00

      Yeah, I mean, for me, the starting point, similar with Ayn Rand, is, uh, th- like, Mein Kampf is not a good place to search, not just because Hitler's evil, but it's just not full of ideas.

   8. JBJosh Barnett54:11

      No, it is not. It has its significance due to a lot of things.

   9. LFLex Fridman54:16

      Historically speaking.

   10. JBJosh Barnett54:16

       Yeah, but-

   11. LFLex Fridman54:17

       But the starting point for me with Hitler is, like, to acknowledge that he's human, and to at least consider the possibility that any one of us could've been Hitler. So, like, the, not to make it-

   12. JBJosh Barnett54:29

       Well, that's a Peterson kind of concept. Also, um, Jonathan Haidt has a thing about, uh, the difference between hate and disgust mechanisms-

   13. LFLex Fridman54:38

       Yeah.

   14. JBJosh Barnett54:38

       ... and things like that. And so he used... he goes into the, looking at, uh, Hitler and his... through his, his diary entries and journals and stuff like that-

   15. LFLex Fridman54:46

       Mm-hmm.

   16. JBJosh Barnett54:46

       ... to look, uh, and see it more as the, the disgust mechanism then also try and see, like, if there's any evolutionary, biological, uh, attachment to this, whatever. I mean, you're right, he is a human being. Any of us are h- we're all human beings. It's not that-...it is probably jarring for people to think, but we're, we're all, I guess, supposedly, potentially capable of just being in... And all these evil people in the world think they're doing it for the sake of good.

   17. LFLex Fridman55:19

       Yeah.

   18. JBJosh Barnett55:20

       Which makes them the most dangerous.

   19. LFLex Fridman55:22

       And there's some, there's differences in levels of insane.

   20. JBJosh Barnett55:25

       Mm-hmm.

   21. LFLex Fridman55:26

       I think Hitler was way more insane than Stalin. I think Stalin legitimately thought he was being, doing good.

   22. JBJosh Barnett55:33

       I would say-

   23. LFLex Fridman55:34

       Like-

   24. JBJosh Barnett55:34

       ... that's probably true. Stalin, it was just outright brutal.

   25. LFLex Fridman55:40

       Yeah.

   26. JBJosh Barnett55:40

       Like he had, he had his five-year plan, he had all those other things. Uh...

   27. LFLex Fridman55:44

       He just had a much lower value for human life.

   28. JBJosh Barnett55:46

       Yes.

   29. LFLex Fridman55:47

       And so he was willing to take, make decisions about what he actually, as a, as a good executive-

   30. JBJosh Barnett55:53

       Mm-hmm.
8. 1:10:11 – 1:18:36

   Karl Gotch

   1. LFLex Fridman1:10:12

      can we talk about (laughs) Karl Gotch and catch wrestling?

   2. JBJosh Barnett1:10:15

      (laughs)

   3. LFLex Fridman1:10:15

      'Cause I do want to make sure I, I to-

   4. JBJosh Barnett1:10:17

      Ah.

   5. LFLex Fridman1:10:17

      ... I touch it. I mean, what, uh, who were-

   6. JBJosh Barnett1:10:20

      Yeah. Karl Gotch is, uh-

   7. LFLex Fridman1:10:22

      Is he the greatest catch wrestler, Steve, in your mind?

   8. JBJosh Barnett1:10:23

      I don't know if he was the greatest catch wrestler ever. I don't, I don't... I mean, he's one of them, and for a myriad of-

   9. LFLex Fridman1:10:30

      Who are the important figures of catch-

   10. JBJosh Barnett1:10:30

       Uh, Karl Gotch, uh, Billy Robinson, uh, Gotch and Robinson's trainer, Billy Riley, um...

   11. LFLex Fridman1:10:40

       So who are these figures and what do they bring to-

   12. JBJosh Barnett1:10:41

       Mitsuo Maeda, he's one of the greatest catch wrestlers ever-

   13. LFLex Fridman1:10:44

       Right.

   14. JBJosh Barnett1:10:44

       ... because he's responsible for Brazilian jiu-jitsu-

   15. LFLex Fridman1:10:46

       Right.

   16. JBJosh Barnett1:10:47

       ... along with Gustavo Gracie.

   17. LFLex Fridman1:10:48

       Okay. There's a bunch of things I'd like to say here, but one of the things, uh, that catch wrestling seemed to espouse as a principle is-

   18. JBJosh Barnett1:10:57

       Mm-hmm.

   19. LFLex Fridman1:10:57

       ... that of violence. I, I, I just, the, the tournaments I competed at, uh, the unfortunate thing-

   20. JBJosh Barnett1:11:03

       Mm.

   21. LFLex Fridman1:11:03

       ... and we'll probably hopefully talk about it a little bit, they were disorganized and the level of competition was pretty low-

   22. JBJosh Barnett1:11:10

       Sure.

   23. LFLex Fridman1:11:10

       ... where people really sucked.

   24. JBJosh Barnett1:11:11

       Pretty typical.

   25. LFLex Fridman1:11:12

       (laughs) Is that typical? Okay.

   26. JBJosh Barnett1:11:13

       Well, it's, it's, I mean, think about, um, you know, local run-of-the-mill-

   27. LFLex Fridman1:11:18

       Yes.

   28. JBJosh Barnett1:11:19

       ... uh, jiu-jitsu tournament versus IBJJF created-

   29. LFLex Fridman1:11:22

       Yeah.

   30. JBJosh Barnett1:11:22

       ... you know, a vast difference. So.
9. 1:18:36 – 1:26:58

   Mike Tyson

   1. LFLex Fridman1:18:36

      find that. Can you comment on, uh, Tyson? Mike Tyson? He said-

   2. JBJosh Barnett1:18:41

      Oh, yeah, that thing?

   3. LFLex Fridman1:18:42

      (laughs)

   4. JBJosh Barnett1:18:42

      Uh...

   5. LFLex Fridman1:18:42

      So first, so he, uh, there's two things I want to know.

   6. JBJosh Barnett1:18:45

      Mm-hmm.

   7. LFLex Fridman1:18:45

      So, he's, uh, in terms of fear, there's a clip there, I think, from a documentary-

   8. JBJosh Barnett1:18:49

      Mm-hmm.

   9. LFLex Fridman1:18:49

      ... where he talks about he is like fully afraid as he walks up to the ring, and as he gets closer and closer and closer, he gets more confident, until he gets in and then he's a god or something like that.

   10. JBJosh Barnett1:19:00

       Mm-hmm.

   11. LFLex Fridman1:19:01

       That, coupled with his statement on Joe Rogan that he gets aroused, uh, at the possibility of tru- like of hurting somebody in the ring.

   12. JBJosh Barnett1:19:12

       Mm-hmm.

   13. LFLex Fridman1:19:12

       So like (laughs) he gets aroused at the violence.

   14. JBJosh Barnett1:19:15

       Yeah.

   15. LFLex Fridman1:19:15

       Uh, s- uh, I like it 'cause it's coupled to your...... basically a statement that we need to own, to find our own unique way of existing at our top level of performance, and that perhaps is Mike Tyson. But do you think there's something more deeply universal to the- the Mike Tyson speaking to the fact that he's aroused at the possibility of violence?

   16. JBJosh Barnett1:19:37

       Ye-, yeah, I do actually. Uh, although I don't think that it always equates to arousal (laughs) for people. In fact, I would say, in general, it doesn't.

   17. LFLex Fridman1:19:44

       Yeah.

   18. JBJosh Barnett1:19:44

       Uh, I can say I've never had a boner in the ring.

   19. LFLex Fridman1:19:47

       (laughs)

   20. JBJosh Barnett1:19:47

       In fact, if anything, you know, ole combat cock is like, "W- we're not hanging around. We're leaving."

   21. LFLex Fridman1:19:51

       Yeah.

   22. JBJosh Barnett1:19:51

       "We're going up."

   23. LFLex Fridman1:19:52

       Yeah.

   24. JBJosh Barnett1:19:52

       "We're taking off."

   25. LFLex Fridman1:19:53

       Yeah.

   26. JBJosh Barnett1:19:53

       "We don't want anything to do with this."

   27. LFLex Fridman1:19:54

       Yes. (laughs)

   28. JBJosh Barnett1:19:55

       "You have fun. Come back to us when you have-"

   29. LFLex Fridman1:19:56

       Yeah.

   30. JBJosh Barnett1:19:56

       "... something, uh, warmer, softer, smells better."

Episode duration: 2:11:55