Kai-Fu Lee: AI Superpowers - China and Silicon Valley | Lex Fridman Podcast #27

1. 0:00 – 1:25:38

   Intro

   1. LFLex Fridman0:00

      The following is a conversation with Kai-Fu Lee. He's the chairman and CEO of Sinovation Ventures that manages a $2 billion dual currency investment fund with a focus on developing the next generation of Chinese high-tech companies. He's the former president of Google China, and the founder of what is now called Microsoft Research Asia, an institute that trained many of the artificial intelligence leaders in China, including CTOs or AI execs at Baidu, Tencent, Alibaba, Lenovo, and Huawei. He was named one of the 100 most influential people in the world by Time Magazine. He's the author of seven best-selling books in Chinese, and most recently, the New York Times best-seller called AI Superpowers: China, Silicon Valley, and the New World Order. He has unparalleled experience in working across major tech companies and governments on applications of AI, and so he has a unique perspective on global innovation and the future of AI that I think is important to listen to and think about. This is the Artificial Intelligence podcast. If you enjoy it, subscribe on YouTube and iTunes, support it on Patreon, or simply connect with me on Twitter @lexfridman. And now, here's my conversation with Kai-Fu Lee. I immigrated from Russia to US when I was 13. You immigrated to US at about the same age. The Russian people, the American people, the Chinese people each have a certain soul, a spirit that permeates throughout the generations.

   2. KLKai-Fu Lee1:41

      Mm-hmm.

   3. LFLex Fridman1:42

      So maybe it's a little bit of a poetic question, but could you, uh, describe your sense of what defines the Chinese soul?

   4. KLKai-Fu Lee1:52

      I think the Chinese soul of people today, right, we're talking about, people who have had, um, centuries of burden because of the poverty that the country has gone through, and suddenly shined with hope of prosperity in the past 40 years as China opened up and embraced market economy. And, um, undoubtedly, there are two sets of pressures on the people, that of the tradition, um, that of, um, facing, uh, difficult situations, and that of hope of wanting to be the first to become successful and wealthy, so that, that's a very strong, uh, hunger and a strong desire and strong work ethic that drives China forward.

   5. LFLex Fridman2:41

      And is there roots to not just this generation but before, that's- that's deeper than just the new economic developments? Is there something that's unique to China that you could speak to that's in the people?

   6. KLKai-Fu Lee2:55

      Yeah. Well, the Chinese, um, tradition is about excellence, dedication, and results, and the Chinese exams and, uh, study subjects in schools have traditionally, uh, started from memorizing 10,000 characters. Not an easy task to start with. And further by memorizing his- historic, um, philosophers, literature, poetry. So it really is the- probably the strongest rote learning mechanism created to make sure people had good memory and remembered things extremely well. Um, that, I think at the same time, uh, suppresses the breakthrough innovation, um, and also enhances the speed execution, get results, and that, I think characterizes the historic basis of, uh, China.

   7. LFLex Fridman3:47

      That's interesting 'cause there's echoes of that in Russian education as well is rote memorization.

   8. KLKai-Fu Lee3:52

      Mm-hmm.

   9. LFLex Fridman3:52

      So you have to memorize a lot of poet- I mean there's-

   10. KLKai-Fu Lee3:54

       Mm-hmm.

   11. LFLex Fridman3:55

       ... just the- an emphasis on perfection in all forms.

   12. KLKai-Fu Lee3:58

       Mm-hmm.

   13. LFLex Fridman3:59

       That's not conducive to perhaps what you're speaking to which is creativity. But you- y- and you think that kind of education holds back the innovative spirit that you might see in the United States?

   14. KLKai-Fu Lee4:11

       Well, it holds back the breakthrough innovative spirit that we see in the United States, but it does hold back the valuable execution-oriented, result-oriented, uh, value creating engines which we see China being very successful.

   15. LFLex Fridman4:28

       So is there a difference between a Chinese AI engineer today and an American AI engineer, perhaps rooted in the culture that we just talked about, or the education, or the very soul of the people? Or no? And what would your advice be to each if there's a difference?

   16. KLKai-Fu Lee4:45

       Well, there's a lot that's similar because AI is about, um, mastering sciences, about using known technologies and trying new things, but it's also about, um, picking from many parts of possible networks to use and different types of parameters to tune, and that part is somewhat rote, and it is also, as anyone who's built AI products can tell you, a lot about cleansing the data, because AI runs better with more data, and data is generally, um, unstructured, error- er- error-full and, um, uh, unclean, and the effort to clean the data is- is immense. So I think the better part of American engineering- AI engineering process is, uh, to try new things, to do things people haven't done before, and, um, to use technology to solve most if not all problems. Um, so to make the algorithm work despite not so great data, find, you know, error-tolerant ways to deal with the data. The Chinese way would be to, um, basically enumerate to the fullest extent all the possible ways by a lot of machines, try lots of different ways to get it to work, and, um, spend a lot of resources and money and time cleaning up data. That mean- that means the AI engineer may be writing data cleansing algorithms working with-... thousands of people who label or correct or, uh, do things with the data. That is the incredible hard work that might lead to better results. So the Chinese engineer would rely on and ask for more and more and more data, and find ways to cleanse them and make them work in the system, and probably less time thinking about new algorithms that can overcome data or other issues.

   17. LFLex Fridman6:39

       So where's your intuition? Where do you think the biggest impact in the next 10 years lies? Is it in some breakthrough algorithms, or is it in just this s- at scale rigor-

   18. KLKai-Fu Lee6:53

       (clears throat)

   19. LFLex Fridman6:53

       ... a rigorous approach to data, cleaning data, organizing data unto the same algorithms? What do you think the big impact in the applied world is?

   20. KLKai-Fu Lee7:02

       Well, if you're really in the company and you have to deliver results, using known techniques and enhancing data seems like the more expedient approach that's very, uh, low risk and, uh, likely to generate better and better results. And that's why the Chinese approach has done quite well. Now, there are a lot of more challenging startups and problems, such as autonomous vehicles, medical diagnosis, that existing algorithms may- probably won't solve. Um, and that would put the Chinese approach more challenged, and give the more breakthrough innovation approach, um, more- more- more of an edge on those kinds of problems.

   21. LFLex Fridman7:45

       So let me, uh, talk to that a little more. So, you know, my intuition, personally-

   22. KLKai-Fu Lee7:49

       Mm-hmm.

   23. LFLex Fridman7:49

       ... is, uh, that data can take us extremely far. Uh, so you brought up autonomous vehicles and medical diagnosis. So your intuition is that huge amounts of data might not be able to completely help us solve that problem?

   24. KLKai-Fu Lee8:04

       Right. So breaking that down further, in autonomous vehicle, I think huge amounts of data probably will solve trucks driving on highways, which will deliver significant value, and China will probably lead in that. Um, and, um, full L5 autonomous is likely to require new technologies we don't yet know, and that might require academia and great industrial research both innovating and working together. And in that case, US has an advantage.

   25. LFLex Fridman8:35

       So the interesting question, uh, there is... I don't know if you're familiar on the autonomous vehicle space and the developments with Tesla and Elon Musk-

   26. KLKai-Fu Lee8:42

       I am.

   27. LFLex Fridman8:43

       ... where they are in fact, uh, full steam ahead-

   28. KLKai-Fu Lee8:48

       Mm-hmm.

   29. LFLex Fridman8:49

       ... into this mysterious complex world of full autonomy, L5, L4, L5, and they're trying to solve that purely with data. So the same kind of thing that you're saying is just for highway, which is what a lot of people share your intuition-

   30. KLKai-Fu Lee9:04

       Yeah.
2. 1:25:38 – 1:26:10

   First question for an AGI system

   1. LFLex Fridman1:25:38

      you believe, as many do, that we're far from creating an artificial general intelligence system. But, say, once we do and you get to ask her one question, what would that question be?

   2. KLKai-Fu Lee1:25:57

      What is it that differentiates you and me? (laughs)

   3. LFLex Fridman1:26:02

      Beautifully put. Kai-Fu, thank you so much for your time today. It was wonderful.

   4. KLKai-Fu Lee1:26:05

      Thank you.

Episode duration: 1:26:26