Kate Darling: Social Robots, Ethics, Privacy and the Future of MIT | Lex Fridman Podcast #329

1. 0:00 – 1:46

   Introduction

   1. KDKate Darling0:00

      ... I think that animals are a really great thought experiment when we're thinking about AI and robotics, because again, there's comparing them to humans, that leads us down the wrong path, both because it's not accurate, but also I think for the future, we don't want that. We want something that's a supplement. But I think animals, because we've used them throughout history for so many different things, we, we domesticated them not because they do what we do, but because what they do is different, and that's useful. And I, it just, like whether we're talking about companionship, whether we're talking about work integration, whether we're talking about responsibility for harm, there are just so many things we can draw on in that history from these entities that can sense, think, make autonomous decisions, and learn, that are applicable to how we should be thinking about robots and AI.

   2. LFLex Fridman0:51

      The following is a conversation with Kate Darling, her second time on the podcast. She's a research scientist at MIT Media Lab interested in human-robot interaction and robot ethics, which she writes about in her recent book called The New Breed: What Our History with Animals Reveals About Our Future with Robots. Kate is one of my favorite people at MIT. She was a courageous voice of reason and compassion through the time of the Jeffrey Epstein scandal at MIT three years ago. We reflect on this time in this very conversation, including the lessons it revealed about human nature and our optimistic vision for the future of MIT, a university we both love and believe in. This is the Lex Fridman Podcast. To support it, please check out our sponsors in the description. And now, dear friends, here's Kate Darling.

2. 1:46 – 17:47

   What is a robot?

   1. LFLex Fridman1:46

      Last time we talked a few years back, you wore a Justin Bieber shirt for the podcast.

   2. KDKate Darling1:51

      (laughs)

   3. LFLex Fridman1:51

      So now looking back, you're a respected, um, researcher, all the amazing accomplishments in robotics, uh, you're an author. Was this one of the proudest moments of your life, uh, proudest decisions you've ever made?

   4. KDKate Darling2:05

      Definitely. You handled it really well, though. It was cool 'cause I walked in, I didn't know you were gonna be filming. I walked in and you're in a-

   5. LFLex Fridman2:12

      Right.

   6. KDKate Darling2:12

      ... fucking suit.

   7. LFLex Fridman2:13

      Yeah.

   8. KDKate Darling2:14

      And I'm like, "Why are you all dressed up?"

   9. LFLex Fridman2:16

      Yeah. (laughs)

   10. KDKate Darling2:17

       And then you were so nice about it. You, like made some excuse. You were like, "Oh, well, I'm interviewing some art..." Didn't you say you were interviewing some military general afterwards to like-

   11. LFLex Fridman2:24

       Oh yeah, that was a-

   12. KDKate Darling2:25

       ... make me feel better?

   13. LFLex Fridman2:26

       ... CTO of Lockheed Martin, I think.

   14. KDKate Darling2:28

       Oh, that's what it was.

   15. LFLex Fridman2:29

       Yeah.

   16. KDKate Darling2:29

       You didn't tell me, oh, I was dressed like this.

   17. LFLex Fridman2:31

       (laughs) Are you an actual Bieber fan, or was that like one of those T-shirts that's in the back of the closet that you use for painting?

   18. KDKate Darling2:40

       I think I bought it for my husband as a joke, and-

   19. LFLex Fridman2:43

       Oh, yeah.

   20. KDKate Darling2:43

       ... yeah, it was, we were, got renovating a house at the time, and I had worn it to the site.

   21. LFLex Fridman2:48

       Got as a joke, and now you wear it. Okay. Have you worn it since? Is this a one-time?

   22. KDKate Darling2:55

       No, like how could I touch it again? It was on your podcast.

   23. LFLex Fridman2:58

       Yeah, it's hold-

   24. KDKate Darling2:58

       Now it's framed.

   25. LFLex Fridman2:59

       It's like a wedding dress or something like that. (laughs) You, you don't, you only wear it once. You are the author of The New Breed: What Our History with Animals Reveals About Our Future with Robots. You opened the book with the surprisingly tricky question, "What is a robot?" So let me ask you. Let's try to sneak up to this question. What's a robot?

   26. KDKate Darling3:20

       That's not really sneaking up.

   27. LFLex Fridman3:22

       It's just asking it.

   28. KDKate Darling3:24

       Yeah.

   29. LFLex Fridman3:25

       All right, well... (laughs)

   30. KDKate Darling3:26

       (laughs) What do you think a robot is?
3. 17:47 – 27:09

   Metaverse

   1. LFLex Fridman17:47

      I mean, that reminds me of the slight clumsiness, or significant clumsiness, on the initial releases of the avatars for the metaverse. I don't know. What, what are your... what are your actually thoughts about that? The, the, um, the way, uh, the avatars, the way, like, M- Mark Zuckerberg looks in that world. You know, the, in the, the, the metaverse, the virtual reality world where you can have, like, virtual meetings and stuff like that.

   2. KDKate Darling18:14

      Yeah.

   3. LFLex Fridman18:14

      Like, how do we get that right? Do you have thoughts about that? 'Cause that's a kind of, uh...... it's a... It- it feels like a similar problem to social robotics, which is how you design a digital virtual world that is c- compelling, uh, when you connect to others there in the same way that physical connection is.

   4. KDKate Darling18:38

      Right. I haven't looked into... I mean, I've seen people joking about it on Twitter and, like, posting (laughs) like, the whatever.

   5. LFLex Fridman18:44

      Yeah. But the... I mean, have you seen it? 'Cause it- it... There's something you can't quite put into words, uh, that, um, doesn't feel genuine-

   6. KDKate Darling18:52

      Yeah.

   7. LFLex Fridman18:53

      ... about the way it looks. And so the question is, if you and I were to meet virtually, what should the avatars look like for us to have similar kind of connection? Should it be really simplified? Should it be a little bit more realistic? Should it be cartoonish? Should it be more, um... Better capturing of expressions, uh, in interesting, complex ways, versus, like, cartoonish oversimplified ways?

   8. KDKate Darling19:24

      But haven't video games figured this out? I'm not a gamer, so I don't have any examples. But I feel like there's this whole world in video games where they've thought about all of this and depending on the game, they have different, like, avatars, and a lot of the games are about connecting with others. I just... The thing that I don't know is... And again, I haven't looked into this at all, um, I've been, like, (laughs) shockingly not very interested in the metaverse, but they must have poured so much investment into this, um, Meta, and, like, why- why is it so- why are people... Why is it so bad? (laughs) Like-

   9. LFLex Fridman20:02

      Well, uh-

   10. KDKate Darling20:03

       There's gotta be a reason. There's gotta be some thinking behind it, right?

   11. LFLex Fridman20:07

       Well, (laughs) I talked to Carmack about this, uh, J- John Carmack, who's a part-time, um, Oculus CTO. I think, uh, there's several things to say. One is, as you probably know, that- I mean, there's bureaucracy. There's large corporations, and they often... Large corporations have a way of killing the indie kinda artistic flame that's required to create something really compelling. Somehow they make everything boring, 'cause they- they run through this whole process through the PR department, through all that kind of stuff, and- and it- it somehow becomes generic through that process. because there's, like-

   12. KDKate Darling20:49

       They strip out anything interesting because it could be controversial? Is that... Or...

   13. LFLex Fridman20:53

       Yeah, right. Exactly. Like, um, like, what... I mean, we- we're living through this now, like, with, uh, (laughs) with a lot of people with cancellations and all those kinds of stuff. People are nervous, and nervousness results in, like, the... Like usual, the assholes are ruining everything. But, you know, the magic of human connection is taking risks, of making a risky joke, of- of- of... Like, with people you like, who are not assholes, good people. Like, some of the fun- some of the fun in the metaverse or in video games is, you know, being edgier, being interesting, revealing your personality in interesting ways. Um, in the sexual tension or in, uh... Like, they're definitely paranoid about that, because-

   14. KDKate Darling21:38

       Oh, yeah.

   15. LFLex Fridman21:39

       ... like, in metaverse, the possibility of sexual assault and sexual harassment and all that kind of stuff, it's- it's obviously very high, but they're, um... So you should be paranoid to some degree, but not too much, because then you remove completely pers- the personality of the whole thing. Then everybody's just like a vanilla bot that, uh... Like, you have to have ability, um, to be a little bit political, to be a little bit edgy, all that kind of stuff. And, uh, large companies tend to suffocate that. So I... But in general, just forget all that. Just the ability to come up w- really cool, beautiful ideas. Um, if you look at, um... I think Grimes tweeted about this. She's very critical about the metaverse. Is that, um, you know, the, uh, i- independent, uh, game designers have solved this problem of how to create something beautiful and interesting and compelling. They- they do a really good job. So you have to let those kinds of minds, the small groups of people design things and let them run with it, l- let them run wild and do edgy stuff. Yeah. But w- otherwise you bec- you get this kind of... You get a Clippy type of situation, right? Which is, like, a very generic looking thing. Um, but even Clippy has some, like... That's kinda wild that you would take a- a paper clip and put eyes on it.

   16. KDKate Darling23:08

       And suddenly people are like, "Oh, you're annoying, but you're definitely a social agent."

   17. LFLex Fridman23:12

       (laughs) And I just feel like that wouldn't even... That Clippy thing wouldn't even survive Microsoft or Facebook of today-

   18. KDKate Darling23:21

       Mm-hmm.

   19. LFLex Fridman23:21

       ... Meta of today, 'cause it would be like, wha- there'd be these meetings about, "Why is it a paper clip?" (laughs) Like, "Why don't we... It's not sufficiently friendly. Let's make it..." Uh, you know. And then all of a sudden, the artist that- with whom it originated is killed, and it's all PR marketing people and all of that kind of stuff. Now, they do important work to some degree, but they kill the creativity.

   20. KDKate Darling23:47

       I think the killing of the creativity is in the wh- Like, okay. So what I know from social robotics is, like, obviously, if you create agents that... Okay, so take for an example, you'd create a robot that looks like a humanoid, and it's, you know, Sophia or whatever. Now suddenly, you do have all of these issues where, are you reinforcing an unrealistic beauty standard? Are you-

   21. LFLex Fridman24:12

       Yeah.

   22. KDKate Darling24:12

       ... objectifying women? Uh, why is the robot white? So you ha- But the thing is, I think that with creativity-... you can find a solution that's even better, where you're not even harming anyone and you're creating a robot that looks like, not, not humanoid, but like something that people relate to even more. And now you don't even have any of these bias issues that you're creating. And so how do we create that within companies? Because I don't think it's really about, like I, 'cause I, you know, maybe we disagree on that. I don't think that edginess or humor or interesting things need to be things that harm or hurt people or that people are against. There are ways to find things that everyone is fine with. Why aren't we doing that?

   23. LFLex Fridman25:01

       The problem is, there's departments that look for harm in things.

   24. KDKate Darling25:05

       Yeah.

   25. LFLex Fridman25:06

       And so they will find harm in things that have no harm. That's the-

   26. KDKate Darling25:09

       Okay.

   27. LFLex Fridman25:09

       That's the big problem, because their whole job is to find harm in things. So what you said is completely correct, which is edginess should not hurt, doesn't necessarily, doesn't need to be a thing that hurts people. It, it obviously. Great humor, great, uh, personality doesn't have to, uh, like Clippy. (laughs) But yeah, I mean, it, it, but it's tricky to get right. And I, I'm not exactly sure. I, I don't know. I don't know why a large corporation with a lot of funding can't get this right.

   28. KDKate Darling25:42

       I do think you're right that there's a lot of aversion to risk. And so if you get lawyers involved or people whose job it is, like you say, to mitigate risk, they're just gonna say no to most things that could even be in some way... Yeah. Yeah, you get the problem in all organizations. So I think that you're right that that is a problem.

   29. LFLex Fridman26:00

       I think what's the way to solve that in large organizations is to have Steve Jobs types of characters. Unfortunately, you do need to have, I think, um, from a designer persp- or maybe like a Jony Ive, that is almost like a dictator.

   30. KDKate Darling26:17

       Yeah, you want a benevolent dictator.
4. 27:09 – 40:51

   Bias in robots

   1. LFLex Fridman27:09

      in the, uh, in the book you have a picture. This, I just have a lot of ridiculous questions. You have a picture of two hospital delivery robots with a caption that reads... By the way, see, your book, I appreciate that it, it keeps the humor in.

   2. KDKate Darling27:23

      (laughs)

   3. LFLex Fridman27:23

      You didn't run it by the PR department.

   4. KDKate Darling27:25

      No, no one edited the book.

   5. LFLex Fridman27:27

      (laughs)

   6. KDKate Darling27:27

      It got rushed through.

   7. LFLex Fridman27:28

      (laughs) Uh, the-

   8. KDKate Darling27:30

      Would be a bad thing.

   9. LFLex Fridman27:30

      ... the caption reads, "Two hospital delivery robots whose sexy nurse names Roxy and Lola made me roll my eyes so hard they almost fell out." Um, what aspect of it made you roll your eyes?

   10. KDKate Darling27:42

       (laughs)

   11. LFLex Fridman27:43

       Is it the naming? Is-

   12. KDKate Darling27:44

       It was the naming. The form factor is fine. It's like a little box on wheels. The fact that they named them, also great. That'll let people enjoy interacting with them. We know that even just giving a robot a name, people will, uh, it, it facilitates technology adoption. People will be like, "Oh, you know, Betsy made a mistake. Let's help her out," instead of, "This stupid robot doesn't work." But why Loly and, Lola and Roxy? Like...

   13. LFLex Fridman28:10

       Those are too, too sexy?

   14. KDKate Darling28:12

       I mean, there's research showing that a lot of robots are named according to gender biases about-

   15. LFLex Fridman28:22

       Yeah.

   16. KDKate Darling28:22

       ... the function that they're fulfilling. So, you know, robots that are helpful and assistants and are like nurses are usually female gendered. Robots that are, you know, powerful, all-wise computers like Watson usually have like a booming male, uh, coded voice s- and, and name. So like why, uh, like that's one of those things, right? You're opening a can of worms for no reason. For no reason.

   17. LFLex Fridman28:48

       So you can avoid this whole can of worms?

   18. KDKate Darling28:49

       Yeah, just give it a different name. Like why Roxy? It's because people aren't even thinking. So to some extent, I don't, I don't like PR departments, but getting some feedback on your work from a diverse set of participants-

   19. LFLex Fridman29:04

       Yes.

   20. KDKate Darling29:04

       ... listening and taking in things that help you identify your own blind spots, and then you can always make your good leadership choices and good... Like you can still ignore things that you don't believe are an issue. But having the openness to take in feedback and making sure that you're getting the right feedback from the right people, I think that's really important.

   21. LFLex Fridman29:28

       So don't unnecessarily propagate the biases of society-

   22. KDKate Darling29:32

       Yeah. Why?

   23. LFLex Fridman29:33

       ... in the design. But, uh, if you're not careful though, when, when you do the research of like, you might, if you ran a poll with a lot of people, of, of all the possible names these robots have, they might come up with Roxy and Lola as, as, as names they, um, would enjoy most. Like that could come up as, uh, as the highest.

   24. KDKate Darling29:58

       As in you do marketing research and then... Well, that's what they did with Alexa. They did marketing research-

   25. LFLex Fridman30:04

       Yeah.

   26. KDKate Darling30:05

       ... and nobody wanted the male voice. Everyone wanted it to be female.

   27. LFLex Fridman30:09

       Well, what do you, what do you think about that? Like what... I-

   28. KDKate Darling30:12

       I mean-

   29. LFLex Fridman30:12

       ... if, if I, if I were to say I think the role of a great designer, again, to go back to Jony Ive, is to throw out the marketing research.

   30. KDKate Darling30:22

       ... yeah.
5. 40:51 – 43:24

   Modern robotics

   1. LFLex Fridman40:52

      So what do you think, if we just look at the state of the art of robotics, what do you think robots are actually good at today? So if we look at today?

   2. KDKate Darling40:59

      You mean physical robots?

   3. LFLex Fridman41:01

      Yeah, physical robots.

   4. KDKate Darling41:04

      Well...

   5. LFLex Fridman41:05

      Like, what are you impressed by? So, uh, I think a lot of people, I mean, that's what your book is about is, uh, maybe a not a perfectly calibrated understanding of where we are in terms of robotics, what's difficult to robotics, what's easy in robotics.

   6. KDKate Darling41:22

      Yeah. We're way behind where people think we are. So, what's impressive to me, so, uh, let's see, oh, one- one thing that came out recently was Amazon has this new warehouse robot, and it's the first autonomous warehouse robot that can- is safe for people to be around. And so, like, it's kind of, uh, most people, most people, I think, envision that our warehouses are already fully automated, and that they're just, like, robots doing things. It's actually still really difficult to have robots and people in the same space because it's dangerous for the most part. Robots, you know, because, especially robots that have to be strong enough to move something heavy, for example, they can really hurt somebody. And so until now, a lot of the warehouse robots had to just move along, like, preexisting lines, which really restricts what you can do. Um, and so having, I think, that- that's- that's one of the big challenges and one of the big, like, exciting things that's happening, is that we're starting to see more-... cobotics in industrial spaces like that, where people and robots can work side-by-side and not get harmed.

   7. LFLex Fridman42:35

      Yeah. That's what people don't realize are the physical manipulation tasks with, with humans. It's not that the robots wanna hurt you. (laughs) I think that's what people are worried about, like, this malevolent robot-

   8. KDKate Darling42:49

      (laughs)

   9. LFLex Fridman42:49

      ... gets a mind of its own and wants to destroy all humans. Now it's, you know, it's actually very difficult to know where the human is.

   10. KDKate Darling42:56

       Yeah.

   11. LFLex Fridman42:56

       And to, to respond to the human in, dynamically, and collaborate with them on a, on a task, especially if you're something like an industrial robotic arm, which is extremely powerful. So you-

   12. KDKate Darling43:09

       Right.

   13. LFLex Fridman43:09

       ... there's some of the, some of those arms are pretty impressive now that you can just, you can move, you can grab it, you can move it. So the, um, the collaboration between human and robot in the factory setting is really fascinating.

   14. KDKate Darling43:23

       Yeah.

6. 43:24 – 47:46

   Automation

   1. KDKate Darling43:24

   2. LFLex Fridman43:25

      Um, do you think they'll take our jobs?

   3. KDKate Darling43:28

      I don't think it's that simple. I think that there's a ton of disruption that's happening and will continue to happen. Um, you know, I think, uh, speaking specifically of the Amazon warehouses, that might be an area where it would be good for robots to take some of the jobs that are, you know, where people are put in a position where it's unsafe and they're treated horribly and, you know, probably it would be better if a robot did that, and Amazon is clearly trying to (laughs) automate that job away. So, uh, I think there's gonna be a lot of disruption. I do think that robots and humans have very different skill sets. So while a robot might take over a task, it's not gonna take over most jobs. Um, I think just things will change a lot. Like, I don't know, one of the examples I have in the book is mining. Um, so there you have this job that is very unsafe and that requires a bunch of workers and puts them in unsafe conditions. And now you have all these different robotic machines that can help make the jobs safer, and as a result now people can sit in these, like, air conditioned remote control stations and, like, control these autonomous mining trucks. And so that's a much better job, but also they're employing less people now. So it's, it's just a lot of... I think from a bird's eye perspective, you're not gonna see job loss, you're gonna see more jobs created because that's, I, I, I think the future is not robots just becoming like people and taking their jobs. The future is really a combination of our skills and then the supplemental skillset that robots have to increase productivity, to help people have better, safer jobs, to give people work that they actually enjoy doing and are good at. Um, but it's really easy to say that from a bird's eye perspective and, um, ignore kind of the, (laughs) the rubble on the ground as we go through these transitions because of course specific jobs are going to get lost with it.

   4. LFLex Fridman45:39

      Yeah. If you look at the history of the 20th century, it seems like automation constantly increases productivity and improves the average quality of life. So it's, it's been always good, so, like, thinking about this time being different is at le- would need to go against the lessons of history.

   5. KDKate Darling46:01

      It's true.

   6. LFLex Fridman46:03

      And, uh, the other thing is I think people think that the automation of the physical tasks is easy.

   7. KDKate Darling46:10

      (laughs)

   8. LFLex Fridman46:10

      I was, I was just in Ukraine, and the interesting thing is, um... I mean, there's a lot of, uh, difficult and, uh, dark lessons just about a, a war zone. But one of the things that happens in war is there's a lot of mines that are placed. Um, that's th- that's one, one of the big problems for years after a war is even over, is the entire landscape is covered in mines. And so there's a demining effort, and you would think robots would be good at this kind of thing, or, like, your intuition would be like, well, say you have unlimited money and you wanna do a good job of it. Unlimited money. You would get a lot of really nice robots. But y- no. It's humans are still far superior-

   9. KDKate Darling46:57

      Or animals.

   10. LFLex Fridman46:57

       ... at this kind of tech. Or animals. But e- right. But humans with animals together.

   11. KDKate Darling47:02

       Yeah.

   12. LFLex Fridman47:02

       Like, you can't just have a-

   13. KDKate Darling47:03

       That's true. (laughs)

   14. LFLex Fridman47:03

       ... dog with a hat.

   15. KDKate Darling47:05

       (laughs)

   16. LFLex Fridman47:06

       (laughs)

   17. KDKate Darling47:06

       That's fair. (laughs)

   18. LFLex Fridman47:08

       (laughs) But yes. And but figuring out, uh, also how to, uh, disable the mine. Obviously, the easy thing, the thing a robot can help with is to, uh, find the mine and blow it up.

   19. KDKate Darling47:25

       Mm-hmm.

   20. LFLex Fridman47:25

       But that's gonna destroy the landscape. That, that, that really ha- does a lot of damage to the land. You want to, uh, disable the mine and to do that because of all the different, all the different edge cases of the problem. It requires a huge amount of humanlike experience it seems like, so it's mostly done by humans. They have no use for robots. They don't want robots.

   21. KDKate Darling47:45

       Yeah. I think we

7. 47:46 – 56:11

   Autonomous driving

   1. KDKate Darling47:46

      overestimate what we can automate.

   2. LFLex Fridman47:50

      In the, especially in the physical realm.

   3. KDKate Darling47:51

      Yeah.

   4. LFLex Fridman47:52

      It's wo- it's weird. I mean, it's continues that the st- the s- the story of humans, we think we're shitty at everything in the physical world, including driving. We think everybody makes fun of themselves and others for being shitty drivers, but we're actually kind of incredible at them.

   5. KDKate Darling48:07

      No, we're incredible and that's why, like, that's why Tesla still says that if you're in the driver's seat, like, you, you are ultimately responsible. Because the ideal for... I mean, I mean, you know more about this than I do, but hu- like, robot cars are great at predictable things and can react faster and more precisely than a person and can do a lot of the driving. And then the reason that we still don't have autonomous vehicles on all the roads yet is because of this long tail of just-... unexpected occurrences, where a human immediately understands that's a sunset and not a traffic light, that's a horse and carriage ahead of me on the highway, but the car has never encountered that before. So, like, in theory, com- combining those skillsets is what's gonna really be powerful. The only problem is figuring off the, figuring out the human/robot interaction and the handoffs. So, like, in cars, that's a huge problem right now, figuring out- out the handoffs. Um, but in other areas, uh, it- it might be easier. And that's really the future, is human/robot interaction.

   6. LFLex Fridman49:12

      What's really hard to improve... It's- it's- it's terrible that people die in car accidents, but I mean, it's like 70, 80, 100 million miles, one death per, uh, 80 million miles. That's, like, really hard to beat for a robot. That's- that's, like, incredible that hum- like think about it, like the... how many people? Like, just the number of people throughout the world that are driving every single day, all of the st- you know, sleep-deprived, drunk, uh, distracted, all of that, and still very few die relative to what I would imagine. If I were to guess, back when the horse... See, wh- when I was like, in the- in the beginning of the 20th century riding my horse, I would talk so much shit about these cars. I'd be like, "This is gonna... this is extremely dangerous. These machines traveling at 30 miles an hour," or whatever the hell they were going at. (laughs) "This is irresponsible, it's unnatural, and- and it's going to be destructive to all of human society." But then it's extremely surprising how humans adapt to the thing, and they know how to not kill (laughs) each other. Um, I mean, th- that a- ability to adapt is incredible, and to mimic that in a machine is really tricky. Now that said, what Tesla's doing... I mean, I wouldn't have guessed how far machine learning can go on vision alone.

   7. KDKate Darling50:38

      Yeah.

   8. LFLex Fridman50:38

      It's really, really incredible. And people that are, uh, at least from my perspective, people that are kinda, um, uh, you know, critical of Elon and those efforts I think don't give enough credit to how much progress we've made, some- how much incredible progress has been made in that direction. I think most of the robotics community wouldn't have guessed how much it can do on vision alone. It's kind of incredible, um, because we would be... I think it's that approach which is relatively unique, has challenged the other competitors to step up their game. So if you're using LIDAR, if you're using mapping, um, that challenges them to do better, to scale faster, and to use machine learning and computer vision, uh, as well to integrate both LIDAR and vision. So, um, it's kind of incredible. And I'm- I'm not... I don't know if I even have a good intuition of how hard driving is anymore. Maybe it is possible to solve. So all the sunset-

   9. KDKate Darling51:46

      I think it is.

   10. LFLex Fridman51:46

       ... all the use cases you mentioned-

   11. KDKate Darling51:47

       I think we're gonna get there.

   12. LFLex Fridman51:48

       Yeah, the question is when.

   13. KDKate Darling51:49

       Yeah, I think it's not happening as quickly as people thought it would, because it is more complicated.

   14. LFLex Fridman51:55

       But I wouldn't have... I- I, uh, agree with you. My current intuition is that we're gonna get there.

   15. KDKate Darling52:02

       I think we're gonna get there too.

   16. LFLex Fridman52:04

       But I didn't... Before, I wasn't-

   17. KDKate Darling52:07

       You didn't think so?

   18. LFLex Fridman52:07

       ... sure we were gonna get there without, like, with current technology. So, you know, I- I was kinda... this is, like, with vision alone, I, my intuition was, you're gonna have to solve, like, common sense reasoning. You're gonna have to, you're gonna have to solve some of the big problems in artificial intelligence, not just, um, not just perception.

   19. KDKate Darling52:35

       Yeah.

   20. LFLex Fridman52:35

       Like, you have to have a deep understanding of the world is m- was my sense. But now I'm starting to, like, well this... I mean, I'm continuously surprised how well the thing works.

   21. KDKate Darling52:44

       Yeah.

   22. LFLex Fridman52:44

       Obviously, Elon and others, others have stopped, but Elon continues, you know, saying, "We're gonna solve it in a year." I used to-

   23. KDKate Darling52:51

       Well, yeah, that's the thing.

   24. LFLex Fridman52:52

       (laughs)

   25. KDKate Darling52:53

       Bold- bold predictions, though. (laughs)

   26. LFLex Fridman52:54

       Yeah. Well, y- everyone else used to be doing that, but they're kinda like, "All right, we-" (laughs)

   27. KDKate Darling52:59

       Yeah, maybe won't. (laughs)

   28. LFLex Fridman53:01

       (laughs) Maybe let's not promise we're gonna solve, uh, level four driving by 2020-

   29. KDKate Darling53:05

       (laughs)

   30. LFLex Fridman53:05

       ... let's, uh, let's chill on that.
8. 56:11 – 59:37

   Privacy

   1. LFLex Fridman56:11

      I- I- I believe that the companies that have robots, the- the only ones that will succeed are the ones that don't do that, meaning they respect privacy.

   2. KDKate Darling56:25

      You think so?

   3. LFLex Fridman56:26

      Yeah. Because people... 'cause- 'cause they're gonna have to earn people's trust.

   4. KDKate Darling56:31

      Yeah, but, like, Amazon works with law enforcement and gives them the data from their Ring cameras, so...

   5. LFLex Fridman56:37

      Really?

   6. KDKate Darling56:38

      Why should, uh... Yeah. Oh, yeah. Do you have a Ring camera?

   7. LFLex Fridman56:41

      (laughs) Uh, no.

   8. KDKate Darling56:43

      Okay.

   9. LFLex Fridman56:44

      No, no. But, you know, basically any security camera, right? I have, uh, a Google s-... Whatever they have.

   10. KDKate Darling56:51

       We have one that's not... The data, we store the data on a local server because we don't want it to go to law enforcement. 'Cause all the companies are doing it. They're doing it. I- I bet Apple wouldn't.

   11. LFLex Fridman57:03

       Yeah.

   12. KDKate Darling57:03

       Apple's the only company I trust in I don't know how much longer.

   13. LFLex Fridman57:08

       I don't know. I... Maybe that's true for cameras. But with robots, I d- no- people are just not gonna let a robot inside his- their home. Where, like, one time where somebody gets arrested because of something a robot sees, that's gonna be, that's gonna destroy a company.

   14. KDKate Darling57:28

       You don't think people are gonna be like, "Well, that wouldn't happen to me. That happened to a bad person"?

   15. LFLex Fridman57:33

       I think they would.

   16. KDKate Darling57:35

       Yeah?

   17. LFLex Fridman57:35

       'Cause in the modern world, people, like, get... Have you seen Twitter? They get extremely paranoid about any kind of surveillance.

   18. KDKate Darling57:43

       But the thing that I've had to learn is that Twitter is not the modern world. Like, when I go, you know, inland to visit my relatives, like, they don't, the- that's a different discourse that's happening. I think, like, the whole tech criticism world-

   19. LFLex Fridman57:58

       Yeah.

   20. KDKate Darling57:59

       ... it's loud in our ears 'cause we're in those circles.

   21. LFLex Fridman58:02

       D- y- you think you can be a company that does social robotics and not win over Twitter?

   22. KDKate Darling58:07

       That's a good question.

   23. LFLex Fridman58:09

       I feel like the early adopters are all on Twitter. And it feels like you have to win them over.

   24. KDKate Darling58:15

       Feels like nowadays you'd have to win over TikTok honestly. I don't-

   25. LFLex Fridman58:19

       TikTok. Is that, is that a website?

   26. KDKate Darling58:22

       (laughs)

   27. LFLex Fridman58:22

       (laughs) I need to, I need to check it out.

   28. KDKate Darling58:25

       (laughs)

   29. LFLex Fridman58:28

       Um, (laughs) yeah, and that's an interesting one because China is behind that one.

   30. KDKate Darling58:31

       Exactly.
9. 59:37 – 1:04:24

   Google's LaMDA

   1. LFLex Fridman59:37

      So, um, what do you think about the AI, the engineer from G- uh, from, uh, Google that thought LaMDA is sentient? You had actually a really good proposed from somebody else, I forgot her name, is brilliant. I can't believe I didn't know about her. Thanks to you-

   2. KDKate Darling59:55

      Janelle Shane?

   3. LFLex Fridman59:56

      Yeah. From Weird AI.

   4. KDKate Darling59:57

      Oh, yeah. I love her book.

   5. LFLex Fridman59:58

      Oh, she- she's great. I'll have to note for myself to reach out to her. She's amazing. She's hilarious and brilliant and just a great summarizer of the state of AI. But she has, um... I think that was from her, where I was looking at, uh, AI explaining that it's a squirrel.

   6. KDKate Darling1:00:18

      Oh, yeah. Because the transcripts that the engineer released, LaMDA kind of talks about the experience of human-like feelings and I think even consciousness. And so she was like, "Oh, cool, that's impressive. I wonder if an AI can also d- describe the experience of being a squirrel." And so she interviewed, I think she did GPT-3, uh, about the experience of being a squirrel, and then she did a bunch of other ones too like, "What's it like being a flock of crows? What's it like being an algorithm that powers a Roomba?" And, like-

   7. LFLex Fridman1:00:50

      ... yeah.

   8. KDKate Darling1:00:51

      You can have a conversation about any of those things, and they're very convincing.

   9. LFLex Fridman1:00:53

      It's pretty convincing, yeah.

   10. KDKate Darling1:00:55

       Yeah.

   11. LFLex Fridman1:00:55

       Even GPT-3-

   12. KDKate Darling1:00:56

       Yeah.

   13. LFLex Fridman1:00:56

       ... which is not, like, state of the art-

   14. KDKate Darling1:00:58

       Right.

   15. LFLex Fridman1:00:58

       ... is convincing of being a squirrel. It's like wha- what it's like... (laughs)

   16. KDKate Darling1:01:02

       (laughs) It's so cute.

   17. LFLex Fridman1:01:03

       I mean, you shou- you should check it out, 'cause it, it really is. It's like, yeah, that probably is what a squirrel would, would ta- would, sound like.

   18. KDKate Darling1:01:10

       (laughs) Would say.

   19. LFLex Fridman1:01:11

       (laughs) Are you excited? Like, wha- what's it like being a squirrel? Oh, it's fun, whatever it is.

   20. KDKate Darling1:01:14

       Oh, yeah. I get to eat nuts and run around all day. (laughs)

   21. LFLex Fridman1:01:17

       Uh, like, w- how do you think people will feel like when you tell them that you're a squirrel? Um, you know, or, like, I forget what it was. Like, a lotta people might be scared to find out that you're a squirrel or something like this, and then the, the system answers pretty, like-

   22. KDKate Darling1:01:32

       Yeah.

   23. LFLex Fridman1:01:32

       ... pretty well. Like, yeah, like, um, I hope they'll... Like, what do you think the, when they find out you're a squirrel? (laughs) Um, I, I hope they'll see how fun it is to be a squirrel-

   24. KDKate Darling1:01:44

       (laughs) Yeah.

   25. LFLex Fridman1:01:44

       ... or something like that.

   26. KDKate Darling1:01:45

       What do you say to people who don't believe you're a squirrel?

   27. LFLex Fridman1:01:47

       Yeah, right. (laughs)

   28. KDKate Darling1:01:48

       I say, "Come see for yourself."

   29. LFLex Fridman1:01:49

       (laughs) Yeah, right.

   30. KDKate Darling1:01:49

       "Uh, I am a squirrel."
10. 1:04:24 – 1:17:28

    Robot animal analogy

    1. KDKate Darling1:04:24

       of.

    2. LFLex Fridman1:04:25

       So, one of the really interesting perspectives that your book takes on a system like this is to see them... Not to compare a system like this to humans, but to compare it to animals, of how we see animals. Can you kinda try to, uh, again sneak up, try to explain-

    3. KDKate Darling1:04:43

       Mm-hmm.

    4. LFLex Fridman1:04:43

       ... why this analogy is better than the human analogy, the analogy of robots as animals?

    5. KDKate Darling1:04:48

       Yeah. And it gets trickier with the language stuff, but, y- we'll get into that, too. Um, I think that animals are a really great thought experiment when we're thinking about AI and robotics, because, again, this comparing them to humans, that leads us down the wrong path, both because it's not accurate, but also, I think, for the future, we don't want that. We want something that's a supplement. But I think animals, because we've used them throughout history for so many different things, we, we domesticated them not because they do what we do, but because what they do is different, and that's useful. And I... It just, like, whether we're talking about companionship, whether we're talking about work integration, whether we're talking about responsibility for harm, there are just so many things we can draw on in that history from these entities that can sense, think, make autonomous decisions, and learn that are applicable to how we should be thinking about robots and AI. And, and the point of the book is not that they're the same thing, that animals and robots are the same. Obviously, there are tons of differences there. Like, you can't, you can't have a conversation with a squirrel, right? But the, the point is that-

    6. LFLex Fridman1:05:56

       I do it all the time.

    7. KDKate Darling1:05:57

       Oh, really?

    8. LFLex Fridman1:05:58

       By the way, squirrels are the cutest. I project so much on squirrels. I wonder what their inner life is. Um, I suspect they are much bigger assholes than we imagine.

    9. KDKate Darling1:06:09

       Really?

    10. LFLex Fridman1:06:10

        Like, if it was a giant squirrel, it would fuck you over so fast if it had the chance. It would take everything you own. It would eat all your stuff-

    11. KDKate Darling1:06:18

        (laughs)

    12. LFLex Fridman1:06:18

        ... but 'cause it's small and the furry tail... The furry tail is a, is a, is a weapon against human consciousness and cognition. It wins us over. That's what cats-

    13. KDKate Darling1:06:29

        Oh, yeah.

    14. LFLex Fridman1:06:29

        ... do, too. Cats out-out-competed squirrels.

    15. KDKate Darling1:06:33

        And dogs. Like-

    16. LFLex Fridman1:06:35

        Yeah. W-

    17. KDKate Darling1:06:35

        Dogs are-

    18. LFLex Fridman1:06:35

        No, dogs have love. Cats are, have no soul. They... No, I'm just kidding.

    19. KDKate Darling1:06:40

        (laughs)

    20. LFLex Fridman1:06:40

        People get so angry when I talk shit about cats. Uh, I love cats. Anyway, uh, so y- uh, uh, yeah. You're, you're describing all the different kinds of animals that get domesticated.... and it's a really interesting idea that it's not just to pets, there's all kinds of domestication going on. They all have all kinds of uses.

    21. KDKate Darling1:07:00

        Yes.

    22. LFLex Fridman1:07:00

        Like the, uh, ox that you proposed might be the... at least historically one of the most useful domesticated animals.

    23. KDKate Darling1:07:09

        It was a game changer because it revolutionized like what people could do economically, et cetera. So, I, I mean, just like robots, they're gonna cha- they're gonna change things economically, they're gonna change landscapes, like cities might even get rebuilt around autonomous vehicles or drones or delivery robots. Like, uh, I think just the same ways that animals have really shifted society, and society has adapted also to, like, socially accepting animals as pets. Um, I think we're gonna see very similar things with robots. So I think it's a useful analogy. It's not a perfect one, but I think it's... it helps us get away from this idea that robots can, should, or will replace people.

    24. LFLex Fridman1:07:49

        If you remember, what are some interesting uses of animals? Ferrets, for example.

    25. KDKate Darling1:07:54

        Oh, yeah, the ferrets. They- uh, they still do this, they use ferrets to go into narrow spaces that people can't go into, like a pipe or, like, they'll use them to run electrical wire. I think they did that for Princess Di's wedding. There's so many weird ways that-

    26. LFLex Fridman1:08:07

        Work is work.

    27. KDKate Darling1:08:08

        ... we've used animals and still use animals for things that robots can't do. Like the dolphins, the- that they used in the, in the military. I think the... I think Russia still has dolphins and the US still has dolphins in their navies. Um-

    28. LFLex Fridman1:08:25

        For what?

    29. KDKate Darling1:08:26

        Uh, mine detection, looking for lost underwater equipment, some rumors about, like, using them for weaponry, (laughs) which, which I think Russia's like, "Sure, believe that," and America's like, "No, no, we don't do that." Who knows? Uh, but they started doing that in, like, the '60s, '70s. They started training these dolphins because they were like, "Oh, dolphins have this amazing echolocation system that we can't replicate with machines, and they're trainable, so we're gonna use them for all the stuff that we can't do with machines or by ourselves." And they've tried to phase out the dolphins. I know the US has, like, invested m- a lot of money in trying to make robots do the mine detection. But, like you were saying, there is some things that the robots are good at and there's some things that biological creatures are better at, so they still have the dolphins.

    30. LFLex Fridman1:09:13

        So there's also pigeons, of course.
11. 1:17:28 – 1:35:30

    Data concerns

    1. LFLex Fridman1:17:28

       My gut says that these companies don't have the guts to do the personalization. This goes to the, because it's edgy. It's dangerous. It's gonna make a lot of people very angry. Like, it, in the way that, you know, just imagine... Okay. All right. If you do the full landscape of human civilization, just visualize the number of people that are going through breakups right now, just the amount of really passionate, just even if we just look at teenagers, the amount of deep heartbreak that's happening, and like if, if you're going to have Alexa have more of a personal connection with a human, you're gonna have humans that like have existential crises. There's a lot of people that suffer from loneliness and depression. And like, you're now taking on the full responsibility of being a companion to the, the, the, the rollercoaster of the human condition. As a company, like imagine PR and marketing people. They're gonna freak out. They don't have the guts. It's gonna have to come from somebody from a new Apple, from those kinds of fol- like a, a small startup.

    2. KDKate Darling1:18:41

       And it might.

    3. LFLex Fridman1:18:42

       Yeah.

    4. KDKate Darling1:18:42

       Like, they're coming. There's already virtual therapists. There's that Replika app. I haven't tried it, but-

    5. LFLex Fridman1:18:47

       Okay.

    6. KDKate Darling1:18:47

       ... Replika is like a virtual-

    7. LFLex Fridman1:18:47

       It's great.

    8. KDKate Darling1:18:48

       ... companion. Like, it's coming, and if big companies don't do it, someone else will.

    9. LFLex Fridman1:18:53

       Yeah. I think the neg- the future, the next trillion dollar company will be those personalization, 'cause if you think, um...... if you think about all the, the AI we have around us, all the, the smart phones and so on, there's very minimal personalization.

    10. KDKate Darling1:19:11

        You don't think that's just because they weren't able?

    11. LFLex Fridman1:19:14

        No.

    12. KDKate Darling1:19:14

        Really?

    13. LFLex Fridman1:19:15

        I don't think they have the guts.

    14. KDKate Darling1:19:17

        I mean, it might be true but I have to wonder, I mean, Google is clearly gonna do something with the lang- I mean ...

    15. LFLex Fridman1:19:24

        They don't have the guts.

    16. KDKate Darling1:19:25

        (laughs) Are you challenging them?

    17. LFLex Fridman1:19:28

        Uh, partially, but not really, 'cause I know they're not gonna do it.

    18. KDKate Darling1:19:32

        I mean-

    19. LFLex Fridman1:19:32

        They don't have to, it's bad for business in the short term.

    20. KDKate Darling1:19:35

        I'm gonna be honest, like, maybe it's not such a bad thing if they don't just like roll this out quickly because I do think there are huge issues.

    21. LFLex Fridman1:19:44

        Yeah.

    22. KDKate Darling1:19:45

        And, and there's, and not just issues with, like, the responsibility of, like, unforeseen effects on people, but what's the business model? And if you are using the business model that you've used in other domains then you're gonna have to collect data from people, which you will anyway to personalize the thing, and you're gonna be somehow monetizing the data, or you're gonna be doing some, like, ad model. I, it just, it seems like now we're suddenly getting into the realm of, like, severe consumer protection issues, and I'm, I'm really worried about that. I, I see massive potential for this technology to be used in a way that's not for the public good, and not, I mean, that's in, in an in- individual user's interest maybe, but not in society's interest.

    23. LFLex Fridman1:20:35

        Yeah, see I think, I think that kind of personalization should be, like redefine how we treat data. I think you should own all the data your phone knows about you, like, and be able to delete it with a single click and walk away. And that data cannot be monetized or used or shared anywhere without your permission. I think that's the only way people will trust you to give, to, for you to use that data.

    24. KDKate Darling1:21:07

        But then how are companies gonna... I mean, a l- a lot of these applications rely on massive troves of data to train the AI system.

    25. LFLex Fridman1:21:18

        Right, so you have to, um, opt in constantly, and opt in not in some legal, "I agree," but obvi- like show exa- like, um, in the way, um, I opt in to tell you a secret. Like, we understand, like, that, like, I have, I have to choose like how well do I know you and then I say, like, "Don't tell this to anyone." (laughs) And then I have to judge how leaky that, uh, like, how good you are at keeping secrets. In that same way, like, it's very transparent in, uh, which data you're allowed to use for which purposes.

    26. KDKate Darling1:21:56

        That's what people are saying is the solution, and I think that works to some extent, having transparency, having people consent. I think it breaks down at the point at which, and we've seen this happen on social media too, like people are willingly giving up their data because they're getting a functionality from that, and then the harm that that causes is on a, like maybe just someone else and not to them personally. So ...

    27. LFLex Fridman1:22:21

        I don't think people are giving their data. They're not being asked. Like ...

    28. KDKate Darling1:22:25

        But if, if you were asked-

    29. LFLex Fridman1:22:26

        It's not consensual.

    30. KDKate Darling1:22:27

        If you were like, "Tell me a secret about yourself and I'll give you $100." I'd tell you a secret.

Episode duration: 3:03:32