Keoki Jackson: Lockheed Martin | Lex Fridman Podcast #33

1. 0:00 – 1:10:13

   Intro

   1. LFLex Fridman0:00

      The following is a conversation with Keoke Jackson. He's the CTO of Lockheed Martin, a company that through its long history has created some of the most incredible engineering marvels human beings have ever built, including planes that fly fast and undetected, defense systems that intercept nuclear threats that can take the lives of millions, and systems that venture out into space, the moon, Mars and beyond. In these days, more and more, artificial intelligence has an assistive role to play in these systems. I've read several books in preparation for this conversation. It is a difficult one, because in part, Lockheed Martin builds military systems that operate in a complicated world that often does not have easy solutions, in the gray area between good and evil. I hope one day this world will rid itself of war in all its forms. But the path to achieving that in a world that does have evil is not obvious. What is obvious is good engineering and artificial intelligence research has a role to play on the side of good. Lockheed Martin and the rest of our community are hard at work at exactly this task. We talk about these and other important topics in this conversation. Also, most certainly, both Keoke and I have a passion for space, us humans venturing out toward the stars. We talk about this exciting future as well. This is the Artificial Intelligence podcast. If you enjoy it, subscribe on YouTube, give it five stars on iTunes, support it on Patreon, or simply connect with me on Twitter @lexfridman, spelled F-R-I-D-M-A-N. And now, here's my conversation with Keoke Jackson. I read several books on Lockheed Martin recently. My favorite in particular is by, uh, Ben Rich, called Skunk Works, personal memoir. It gets a little edgy at times. But from that, I was reminded, uh, that the engineers at Lockheed Martin have created some of the most incredible engineering marvels human beings have ever built throughout the cen- throughout the 20th century and the 21st. Do you remember a particular project or system at Lockheed, or before that, at the Space Shuttle Columbia that you were just in awe at the fact that us humans could create something like this?

   2. KJKeoki Jackson2:32

      You know, that's a, that's a great question. There's a lot of, uh, things that I could draw on there. When you look at the Skunk Works and Ben Rich's book in particular, of course it starts off with basically the start of the jet age, uh, and the P-80. I had the opportunity to sit next to one of the, uh, Apollo astronauts, uh, Charlie Duke, recently at dinner, and, uh, I said, "Hey, what's your favorite aircraft?" And he said, "Well, it was by far the F-104 Star Fighter," which was another, uh, aircraft that came out of Lockheed there.

   3. LFLex Fridman3:02

      What, what, what kind of-

   4. KJKeoki Jackson3:03

      It was, it was the first Mach 2, uh, um, uh, jet fighter aircraft. They called it the missile with a man in it. And so those are the kinds of things I grew up hearing stories about. You know, of course, the SR-71 is incomparable as, uh, you know, kind of the epitome of speed, altitude, and just the coolest looking aircraft ever. So, uh, so there's-

   5. LFLex Fridman3:27

      And that's a recognis- that's the plane that-

   6. KJKeoki Jackson3:29

      That's a, yeah, intelligence, surveillance and reconnaissance aircraft that was designed to be able to outrun, uh, basically go faster than any, uh, air defense system. But, uh, I, you know, I'll tell you, I'm a space junkin- uh, junkie, uh, that's why I came to MIT. That's really what took me, uh, ultimately to Lockheed Martin. And I grew up... And so Lockheed Martin, for example, has been, um, essentially at the heart of every planetary mission, uh, like all the Mars missions we've had a pla- a part in. And we've talked a lot about the 50th anniversary of Apollo here, uh, in the last couple of weeks, right? But, uh, remember 1976, uh, July 20th again, uh, National Space Day, so the landing of the Viking, uh, the Viking lander on m- on the surface of Mars. Just a huge accomplishment. And, uh, when I was a young engineer at Lockheed Martin, I got to meet engineers who had designed, you know, various pieces of that mission as well. So that's what I grew up on is these planetary missions, the start of the space shuttle era and, uh, and ultimately had the opportunity, uh, to see, uh, Lockheed Martin's part. And we can maybe talk about some of these, uh, here, but Lockheed Martin's part in all of these space journeys over the years.

   7. LFLex Fridman4:44

      Do you dream... And I apologize for getting philosophical at times or sentimental. I do re- romanticize the notion of space exploration. So, do you dream of the day when us humans colonize another planet like Mars or a man, a woman, a human being steps on, on Mars?

   8. KJKeoki Jackson5:03

      Absolutely. And, uh, that's a personal dream of mine. Uh, I haven't given up yet on my own, uh, opportunity to fly into space but...

   9. LFLex Fridman5:11

      (laughs)

   10. KJKeoki Jackson5:11

       But as, you know, from the Lockheed Martin perspective, this is something that we're working towards every day. And, uh, of course, you know, we're, we're building the Orion spacecraft, which is the most sophisticated, uh, human-rated spacecraft ever built. And it's really designed for these deep space journeys, you know, starting with the moon, but ultimately going to Mars and, uh, being the platform, uh, you know, from a design perspective, uh, what we call the, the Mars base camp, to be able to take humans to the surface, and then after a mission of a couple of weeks, bring them back up safely. And so that is something I want to see happen during my time at Lockheed Martin. So I'm, uh, I'm pretty excited about that. And I think, uh, you know, once we prove that's possible, uh, you know, c- colonization might be, you know, a little bit further out, but it's something that, uh, I'd hope to see.

   11. LFLex Fridman6:00

       So maybe you can give a, a little bit of an overview of... So Lockheed Martin is partner with, uh...... a few years ago with Boeing to work with the DOD and NASA to build launch systems and rockets with ULA. Uh, what's beyond that? What's Lockheed's mission timeline long-term dream in terms of space? You mentioned, uh, the moon. I've heard you talk about asteroids, as Mars... What's the timeline, what's the engineering challenges, and what's the dream, long-term?

   12. KJKeoki Jackson6:31

       Yeah. I think the dream long-term is to have a permanent presence in space beyond low earth orbit, ultimately with a, a long-term presence on the moon, and then to the planets, to Mars. And, uh-

   13. LFLex Fridman6:44

       Sorry to interrupt on that.

   14. KJKeoki Jackson6:45

       Yeah.

   15. LFLex Fridman6:45

       So long-term presence means-

   16. KJKeoki Jackson6:48

       Sustained and sustainable presence, and an economy, a space economy that really goes alongside that.

   17. LFLex Fridman6:54

       With human beings being ... and being able to launch perhaps from those ... So like hop? (laughs)

   18. KJKeoki Jackson7:02

       Uh, you know, it's a-

   19. LFLex Fridman7:02

       Is that a-

   20. KJKeoki Jackson7:03

       There's a lot of energy, uh, that goes in those hops, right?

   21. LFLex Fridman7:06

       Right.

   22. KJKeoki Jackson7:06

       So, uh, I think the first step is being able to get there and to be able to establish sustained bases, right? And, uh, and build from there. And a lot of that means getting, as you know, things like the cost of a launch down, and, uh, you mentioned United Launch Alliance, and, uh, so I, I don't want to speak for ULA, but obviously they're, uh, they're working really hard to, uh, on their next generation of space, or of launch vehicles, uh, to, you know, maintain that incredible mission success record that ULA has, but ultimately continue to drive down the cost and make the flexibility, the speed, and the, uh, access, uh, ever greater.

   23. LFLex Fridman7:47

       So what's the missions that are in the horizon that you could talk to?

   24. KJKeoki Jackson7:51

       No, I-

   25. LFLex Fridman7:52

       Is there a hope to get to the moon

   26. NANarrator7:53

       Yeah, the-

   27. KJKeoki Jackson7:53

       Absolutely, absolutely. I mean, and it's-

   28. LFLex Fridman7:55

       Uh-huh.

   29. KJKeoki Jackson7:55

       I think you know this, uh, or you may know this, you know, there's a lot of ways to accomplish some of these goals. And so, uh, that's a lot of what's in discussion today. But ultimately, the, the goal is to be able to establish a base, um, essentially in cislunar space that would allow for ready, uh, transfer, uh, from orbit to the lunar surface and back again. And so that's sort of that near-term, and when I say near-term, in the next decade or so vision, starting off with a, you know, a stated objective by this administration to get back to the moon in the 19- or the 2024 or 2025 timeframe, which is, uh, is right around the corner here. So, uh-

   30. LFLex Fridman8:37

       How big of an engineering challenge is that?
2. 1:10:13 – 1:12:50

   Future of Lockheed Martin

   1. KJKeoki Jackson1:10:13

   2. LFLex Fridman1:10:13

      Absolutely. So Wright brothers flew for the first time 116 years ago. Uh, so now we have supersonic stealth planes and all the technology we've talked about. What innovations... Obviously you can't predict the future, but do you see Lockheed in the next 100 years? If you take that same leap, m- th- how will the world of technology and engineering change? I know it's an impossible question, but, uh, nobody could have predicted that we could even fly 120 years ago. So what do you think is the edge of possibility that we're going to be exploring in the next 100 years?

   3. KJKeoki Jackson1:10:52

      Yeah. I, I don't know that there is an edge. Um, I, you know, we've been around for almost that entire time, right? Uh, you know, uh, the Lockheed brothers and, uh, Glenn L. Martin starting their companies, you know, in the basement of a church, in a old, uh, you know, service station. Uh, we're very different companies today than we were back then, right? And that's because we've continuously reinvented ourselves over the... all, all of those decades. I think it's fair to say, yeah, I know this for sure, the world of the future, it's gonna move faster, it's gonna be more connected, it's gonna be more autonomous, and, uh, it's gonna be more (laughs) complex than it is today. And so, this is the world, you know, as a CTO at Lockheed Martin, that I think about, what are the technologies that we have to invest in? Whether it's things like AI and autonomy, you know, you can think about quantum computing, which is an area that we've invested in to try to stay ahead of these technological changes, and frankly, some of the threats that are out there. I b- I believe that we're gonna be out there in the solar system, that we're gonna be defending, and defending well, against probably, you know, military threats that nobody has even thought about today. Uh, we are going to be... m- we're gonna use these capabilities to have far greater knowledge of our own planet, the depths of the oceans, you know, all the way to the, uh, upper reaches of the atmosphere, and everything out to the sun and to the edge of the solar system. So, uh, so that's what I look forward to. Um, and I, uh, I'm excited, I mean, just looking ahead in the next decade or so to the steps that I see ahead of us, uh, in that time.

   4. LFLex Fridman1:12:36

      I don't think there's a better place to end. Okay, okay, thank you so much.

   5. KJKeoki Jackson1:12:39

      Lex, it's been a real pleasure, and, uh, sorry it took so long to get up here, but I'm glad we were able to make it happen.

   6. LFLex Fridman1:12:45

      I'm glad we were able to make it happen.

Episode duration: 1:13:05