Lex Fridman PodcastKevin Spacey: Power, Controversy, Betrayal, Truth & Love in Film and Life | Lex Fridman Podcast #432
EVERY SPOKEN WORD
150 min read · 30,175 words- 0:00 – 2:44
Introduction
- LFLex Fridman
The following is a conversation with Kevin Spacey, a two-time Oscar-winning actor who has starred in Seven, The Usual Suspects, American Beauty, and House of Cards. He is one of the greatest actors ever, creating haunting performances of characters who often embody the dark side of human nature. Seven years ago, he was cut from House of Cards and canceled by Hollywood and the world when Anthony Rapp made an allegation that Kevin Spacey sexually abused him in 1986. Anthony Rapp then filed a civil lawsuit seeking $40 million. In this trial, and all civil and criminal trials that followed, Kevin was acquitted. He has never been found guilty nor liable in a court of law. In this conversation, Kevin makes clear what he did and what he didn't do. I also encourage you to listen to Kevin's Dan Wootton and Allison Pearson interviews for additional details and responses to the allegations. As an aside, let me say that one of the principles I operate under for this podcast and in life is that I will talk with everyone, with empathy and with backbone. For each guest, I hope to explore their life's work, life story, and what and how they think, and do so honestly and fully, the good, the bad, and the ugly, the brilliance and the flaws. I won't whitewash their sins, but I won't reduce them to a worse possible caricature of their sins either. The latter is what the master's theory of internet mobs too often does, often rushing to a final judgment before the facts are in. I will try to do better than that, to respect due process in service of the truth. And I hope to have the courage to always think independently and to speak honestly from the heart, even when the eyes of the outraged mob are on me. Again, my goal is to understand human beings at their best and at their worst, and the hope is such understanding leads to more compassion and wisdom in the world. I will make mistakes. And when I do, I will work hard to improve. I love you all. This is the Lex Fridman Podcast. To support it, please check out our sponsors in the description. And now, dear friends, here's Kevin Spacey.
- 2:44 – 6:24
Seven
- LFLex Fridman
You played a serial killer in the movie Seven. Your performance was one of, if not the greatest portrayal of a murderer on screen ever. What was your process of becoming him? John Doe, the serial killer.
- KSKevin Spacey
The truth is, I didn't get the part. Um, I had been in Los Angeles making a couple of films, Swimming with Sharks and Usual Suspects. And then I did a film called Outbreak that Morgan Freeman was in. And I went in to audition for David Fincher in probably late November of '94. And I auditioned for this part and didn't get it and I went back to New York. And I think they started shooting like December 12th. And I'm in New York, I'm back in my, I have a wonderful apartment on West 12th Street and my mom has come to visit for Christmas. And it's December 23rd, and it's like 7:00 at night and my phone rings and it's Arnold Kopelson, who's the producer of Seven. And he's very jovial and he's very friendly and he says, "How you doing?" And I said, "Fine." And he said, "Listen, do you remember that film you came in for, Seven?" I said, "Yeah, yeah, absolutely." He goes, "Well, turns out that, uh, we hired an actor and we started shooting and then yesterday David fired him. And David would like you to get on a plane on Sunday and come to Los Angeles and start shooting on Tuesday." And I was like, "Uh, uh, uh, okay. It, would it be im- imposing to say, can, can I read it again 'cause it's, it's been a, a while now and I'd like to..." So they sent a script over. I read the script that night. I thought about it. Um... And I, I had this feeling, I, I, I, I can't even quite describe it, but I had this feeling that it would be really good if I didn't take billing in the film. And the reason I felt that was because I knew that by the time this film would come out, it would be the last one of the three movies that I just shot, the fourth one. And if any of those films broke through or did well, if it was gonna be Brad Pitt, Morgan Freeman, Gwyneth Paltrow, and Kevin Spacey, and you don't show up for the first 25, 30, 40 minutes, people are gonna figure out who you're playing.
- LFLex Fridman
So people should know that you are the serial... You play the serial killer in the movie and the serial killer shows up like more than halfway through the movie-
- KSKevin Spacey
Very late in the movie, yeah.
- LFLex Fridman
... at one point.
- KSKevin Spacey
Yeah.
- LFLex Fridman
And when you say billing, it's like the posters, the VHS cover, (laughs) everything.
- KSKevin Spacey
That's right.
- LFLex Fridman
You're gone. You're not there.
- KSKevin Spacey
That's right. Not there. And so New Line Cinema, uh, told me to go fuck myself.
- LFLex Fridman
Mm-hmm.
- KSKevin Spacey
Um, that they absolutely could use my picture and my image, blah, blah. And this became a little bit of a, I'd say, 24-hour...... conversation, and it was Fincher who said, "I actually think this is a really cool idea." So the compromise was, I'm the first credit at the end of the movie when the credits start.
- 6:24 – 14:16
David Fincher
- KSKevin Spacey
So I got on a plane on that Sunday and I flew to Los Angeles, and I went into where they were shooting, and I went into the makeup room and David Fincher was there and we were talking about, "What should I do? How should I... How should I look?" And I just had my hair short for Outbreak 'cause I was playing a military, uh, character, and I just looked at the hairdresser and I said, "Do you have a razor?" And Fincher went, "Are you kidding?" And I said, "No." He goes, "If you shave your head, I'll shave mine." So we both shaved our heads, and then I started shooting the next day. So, my long-winded answer to your question is that I didn't have that much time to think about how to build that character. W- what I think, in the end, Fincher was able to do so brilliantly, with such terror, was to set the audience up to meet this character.
- LFLex Fridman
I think the- the last scene, the ending scene, and the car ride leading up to it where it's mostly on you, in- in conversation with Morgan Freeman and Brad Pitt, is one of the greatest scenes in film history. So if y- people who somehow didn't see the movie, there's these five murders that happen that are inspired by five of the seven deadly sins, and the- the ending scene is inspired... represents the last two deadly sins. And there's this calm subtlety a- about you in your performance, it's just terrifying. Maybe in contrast with Brad Pitt's performance that's also really strong. But that- the contrast... In the contrast is the terrifying, uh, sense that you get in the audience that builds up to the twist at the end, or the surprise at the end, with the famous, "What's in the box?" from Brad Pitt.
- KSKevin Spacey
Right.
- LFLex Fridman
That is Brad Pitt's character's wife, her head.
- KSKevin Spacey
Yeah. I- I- I can really only tell you that while we were shooting that scene in the car, while we were out in the... in the desert in that place where all those electrical wires were, uh, David just kept saying, "Less. Do less." Um, and I just tried to... I mean, he... I remember he kept saying to me, "Remember, you're in control." Like, "You're going to win, and knowing that should allow you to have tremendous confidence." And I just followed that lead, and I- I just think it's the kind of film that so many of the elements that had been at work from the beginning of the movie in terms of its style, in terms of how he built this terror, in terms of how he built, for the audience, a sense of this person being one of the scariest people they might ever encounter. Um, it- it's... it really allowed me to be able to not have to do that much, just say the words and mean them. And I think it also is... it's an example of what makes tragedy so, um, difficult. I mean, you know, very often tragedy is people operating without enough information. They don't have all the facts. Romeo and Juliet, they don't have all the facts. They don't know what we know as an audience. And so in the end, whether Brad Pitt's character ends up shooting John Doe or turning the gun on himself, which was a discussion. I mean, there were... there were a number of alternative endings that were discussed. Um, nothing ends up being tied up in a nice little bow. It is complicated and shows how nobody wins in the end when you're not operating with all the information.
- LFLex Fridman
When you say, "Say the words and mean them," what does "mean them" mean?
- KSKevin Spacey
(laughs) I've, uh, I've been very fortunate to be directed by Fincher a couple of times, and, um, he would say to me sometimes, "I don't believe a thing that is coming out of your mouth. Shall we try it again?" (laughs) And you go, "Hah, hah, okay, yeah, we can try it again." And sometimes he'll do take, and then y- y- you'll look to see if he has any added, um, genius to- to- to hand you, and he just goes, "Let's do it again." And then, "Let's do it again." And sometimes, I- I- I say this in all humility, he's literally trying to beat the acting out of you, and- and- and by continually saying, "Do it again, do it again, do it again," and not giving you any specifics-... he's- he is- (laughs) he is systematically shredding you of all pretense, of all- you know, 'cause look, eh, very often, you know, actors, we come in on the set and we've thought about the scene, and we've worked out, "You know, I've got this prop, and I'm gonna do this thing with a can. I'm gonna..." You know, all these thing, all the tea. "I'm gonna do a thing with the thing that..." (laughs) And, and David is the kind of director where he just wants you to stop adding all that crap, and just say the words, and say them quickly, and mean them. And it takes a while to get to that place. I- I'll tell you a story. Eh, this is a- a story I just love because it's- it's- it's- it's in the- exactly the same wheelhouse. So Jack Lemmon's first movie was a film called It Should Happen to You, and it was directed by George Cukor. And Jack tells this story, and it was just an incredibly charming story to hear Jack tell. He said, "So I- I- I- I- I'm doing this picture, and let me tell you, I- this is a terrific part for me, and I'm doing a scene. It's on my first day. It's my first day, and it's- it's a terrific scene." And he goes, "We- we do the first take, and- and- and George, uh, Cukor comes up to me and he says, 'Uh, Jack.' I said, 'Yeah?' He said, 'Could you do- let's do another one, but just do a little less, uh, in- in this one.'" And Jack said, "A little- a little less? A little less than what I just did?" He said, "Yeah, just a little less." So he goes, "We do another take, and uh, and I think, 'Boy, that was it. I mean, let's- let's just go home.'" And, uh, Cukor walked up to him and said, "Jack, I- let's do another one. This time just a little bit less."
- LFLex Fridman
(laughs)
- KSKevin Spacey
And Jack said, "Let- uh, less than what I just did now?" He said, "Yeah, just a little bit less." He goes, "Oh, okay." So they did another take and Cukor came up and he said, "Jack, just a little bit less." And Jack said, "A- a little less than what I just did?" He said, "Yes." He goes, "Well, if I do any less, I'm not gonna be acting."
- LFLex Fridman
(laughs)
- KSKevin Spacey
And Cukor said, "Exactly, Jack. Exactly."
- LFLex Fridman
I mean, I guess what you're saying is it's extremely difficult to get to the- the bottom of a little less. Because the
- 14:16 – 19:46
Brad Pitt and Morgan Freeman
- LFLex Fridman
power, if we just think even on Seven, of your performance is in the tiniest of subtleties. Like when you say, "Oh, you didn't know?"
- KSKevin Spacey
Mm-hmm.
- LFLex Fridman
And you turn your head a little bit.
- KSKevin Spacey
Yeah.
- LFLex Fridman
And the little bit, like the- the little bit maybe a glimmer of a smile-
- KSKevin Spacey
Mm-hmm.
- LFLex Fridman
... appears in your face. That's subtly. That's less. That's hard to get to, I- I suppose.
- KSKevin Spacey
Yeah. And also because I- I- I- I so well remember, I think, the work that Brad did in ... and- and also Morgan did in that scene. But the work that Brad had to do, where he had to go. I remember rehearsing with him as we were all staying at this little hotel nearby that location, and we rehearsed the night before we started shooting that sequence. And (breathes deeply) I just ... I mean, it was just incredible to see the levels of emotions he had to go through, and then the decision of, "What do I do? Because if I do what he wants me to do, then he wins. But if I don't do it, then I'm ... What kind of a man, husband am I?" Uh, I- I just thought he did in- really incredible work. So it was also not easy to not react to- to the- to the power of what he was-
- LFLex Fridman
Mm-hmm.
- KSKevin Spacey
... throwing at me. Um, I just thought it was an extraordinary, um, a really extraordinary scene.
- LFLex Fridman
So what's it like being in that scene? So it's you, Brad Pitt, Morgan Freeman, and Brad Pitt is going over the top, just having a mental breakdown, and- and is weighing these extremely difficult moral choices, as you're saying. But he's, like, screaming and in pain, and tormented, while you're very subtly smiling.
- KSKevin Spacey
Mm-hmm. In terms of the writing and in terms of what the characters had to do, it was- it was a incredible culmination of how this character, um, could manipulate in the way that he did and- and in the end succeed.
- LFLex Fridman
You mentioned Fincher likes to do a lot of takes. That's the- the famous thing about David Fincher. So what are the pros and cons of that? I think I- I read that he does some crazy amount. He averages 25 to 65, uh, takes, and most directors do less than 10. So ...
- KSKevin Spacey
Yeah, sometimes it's timing. Sometimes it's literally he has a stopwatch and he's- he's timing how long a scene is taking.
- LFLex Fridman
Mm-hmm.
- KSKevin Spacey
And then he'll say, "You need to take a minute off this scene." Like, "A- a minute?" "Yeah, a minute off the scene. I want it to move like this. So let's pick it up. Let's pick up the pace. Let's take ... Let's see if we can take a minute off."
- LFLex Fridman
Why the speed? Why- why say it fast is the important thing for him, you think?
- KSKevin Spacey
Hmm. I think because Fincher hates indulgence, and he wants- he wants people to talk the way they do in life, which is, you know, we don't take big dramatic pauses-
- LFLex Fridman
Yeah, right.
- KSKevin Spacey
... you know, before we speak. We speak.
- LFLex Fridman
And-
- KSKevin Spacey
We say what we want. We ... You know, uh ...
- LFLex Fridman
And I guess actors like the dramatic pauses, and the- the- the indulge in the dramatic pauses.
- KSKevin Spacey
Well, they didn't always like the dramatic pauses. I mean, look, you know when ... You go back ... Any student of acting, when you go back to the '30s and the '40s, '50s, the speed at which actors spoke, not just in the comedies, which of course, you know, you look at any Preston Sturges movie, and it's incredible how fast people are talking, and how f- and how funny things are when they happen that fast. Um, but then, you know, w- acting styles changed. We got into a different kind of thing in the late '50s and '60s, and- and uh...You know, a lot of actors are feeling it, (laughs) which is- I'm not saying it's- it's a- it's a bad thing, it's just that if you want to keep an audience engaged, as Fincher does, and I believe successfully does in all of his work, um, pace, timing, movement, clarity, speed are admirable to achieve.
- LFLex Fridman
And all of that, he wants the actor to be as natural as possible, to strip away all the bullshit-
- KSKevin Spacey
Exactly. Yeah.
- LFLex Fridman
... of acting, and-
- KSKevin Spacey
Yeah.
- LFLex Fridman
... and become human.
- KSKevin Spacey
Look, I've been lucky with other directors. Sam Mendes is similar. I remember when I walked in to maybe the first rehearsal for Richard III that we were doing. I had brought with me a- a canopy of- of ailments that my Richard was going to suffer from. Uh, (laughs) and, uh, Sam, you know, eventually whittled it down to, like, three. Like, "Maybe your arm," (laughs) "maybe your thing, and maybe your leg, but let's get rid of the other 10 things that you brought into the room." Because I was, you know, I was so excited to, you know, capture this character. So, you know, very often, uh- uh, Trevor Nunn is this way, a lot- a lot of wonderful directors I've worked with, they're really good at helping you trim and edit.
- 19:46 – 28:10
Acting
- KSKevin Spacey
- LFLex Fridman
David Fincher said about you, just talking in general, I think, but also s- specifically in the moment of House of Cards, said that you have exceptional skill both as an actor and as a performer, which he says are different things. So he defines the former as dramatization of a text, and the latter as the seduction of an audience. Do you see, uh, wisdom in that distinction? And what does it take to do both, the dramatization of a text, and then the seduction of an audience?
- KSKevin Spacey
Those are two very interesting descriptions. Um, when I think- I guess when I think performer, I tend to think entertaining. I tend to think, uh- I tend to think comedy. I tend to think winning over an audience. I tend to think, um, that there's something about, um, that quality of wanting to- of wanting to have people enjoy themselves. Um, and when you saddle that against what maybe he means as an actor, which is- which is- which is more dramatic or more- more text-driven, more, um... Look, I've- I've always, uh, believed that my- that my job, not every actor feels this way, but my job, the way that I've looked at it is that my job is to serve the writing. And that if I serve the writing, I will, uh, in a sense, serve myself. Because I'll be in the right world, I'll be in the right context, I'll be in the right style. I- I'll- I'll have embraced what a director's, you know, um... It's not my painting, it's someone else's painting. I'm a series of colors in someone else's painting. And the barometer for me has always been that when people stop me and talk to me about a character I've played and reference their name as if they actually exist, that's when I feel like I've gotten close to doing my job.
- LFLex Fridman
Yeah, one of the challenges for me in this conversation is remembering that your name is Kevin, not Frank or John or any of these characters, because they live deeply in the psyche.
- KSKevin Spacey
To me that's the greatest- that's the greatest, um, um, compliment for me as an actor. Um, I- I- I love being able to go- I mean, when I think about performers who inspire me, and I remember when I was young and I was introduced to Spencer Tracy, Henry Fonda, Katharine Hepburn, I just- I believed who they were. I knew nothing about them. They were just these extraordinary characters doing this extraordinary stuff. And then I think more, um, recently contemporary. When I think of the work that Philip Seymour Hoffman did, and Heath Ledger, and people that- that... when I think about what they could be doing, what they could do, what they would have done had they stayed with us, um, I'm so ex- I'm so excited when I- when I go into a cinema or I go into a play and I completely am taken to some place that I believe exists and characters that- that become real.
- LFLex Fridman
And those characters become, like, lifelong companions. Like, for me, they travel with you. And even if it's the darkest aspects of human nature, they're always there. It's- they- almost like- I feel like I almost met them, and gotten to know them, and gotten to become, like, friends with them almost. Hannibal Lecter, whether it's the- or- or Forrest Gump.
- KSKevin Spacey
Mm-hmm.
- LFLex Fridman
I mean I've- I feel like I'm, like, best friends with Forrest Gump.
- KSKevin Spacey
(laughs)
- LFLex Fridman
I know the guy. And I guess he's played by some guy named Tom, but, like, Forrest Gump is the- the guy I'm friends with.
- KSKevin Spacey
Yeah. Yeah.
- LFLex Fridman
(laughs) And then I think that everybody feels like that when they're in the audience with great characters. They just kinda- they become part of you in some- some way, the do- the- the good, the bad, and the ugly of them.
- KSKevin Spacey
Mm-hmm. One of the things that I- that I feel that I try to do, uh, in my work e-... is when I read something for the first time. When I read a script, a play, and I am absolutely devastated by it. It is, it is the most extraordinary, the most beautiful, the most life-affirming or terrifying. It's then a process, weirdly, of working backwards. Because I want to work in such a way that that's the experience I give to the audience when they first see it. That they have the experience I had when I read it. I remember that there's been times in the creative process when something was pointed out to me, or something was ... I- I- I remember I was doing a play, and I was having this really tough time with a, one of the last scenes in the play and I just couldn't figure it out. And I was in rehearsal, and although we had a director in that play, I, I called another, a friend of mine who is also a director, and I had, I had him come over. And I said, "Look, this scene, I'm just having the toughest ... I cannot seem to crack this scene." And so we, we read it through a couple of times, and then this, this wonderful director named John Swanbeck, um, who would eventually direct me in a film called The Big Kahuna, but this is before that. Um, he said to me the most incredible thing. He just said, um, "All right, what's the last line you have in this scene before you fall over and fall asleep?" And I said, "The last line is, uh, 'That last drink, the old K.O.''" And he went, "Okay, I want you to think about what that line actually means, and then work backwards." And so he left, and I sort of was left with this, "What? Like, what does that mean? How am I supposed to..." And then, like, a couple of days went by, a couple of days went by and I thought, "Okay, so I say, what does that line actually mean?" Well, "That last drink, the old K.O." K.O. is knockout, which is a boxing term. It's the only boxing term the writer uses in the play. And then I went back, and I realized my friend was so smart and so incredible to have, you know, said, "Ask a question you haven't thought of asking yet." I realized that the playwright wrote the last round, the eighth round, between these two brothers, and it was a fight. Physical as well as emotional. And when I brought that into the rehearsal room, to the director who was doing that play, he liked that idea. And we staged that scene as if it was the eighth round, although audience wouldn't have known that. But just what I loved about that was that somebody said to me, "Ask yourself a question you haven't asked yourself yet. What does that line mean? And then work backwards."
- LFLex Fridman
What is that, like a, a catalyst for thinking deeply about what is magical about this play, this story, this narrative? That- that's what that is? Like, thinking backwards, that's what that does?
- KSKevin Spacey
Yeah. And- and- but also because it's just- it- it's this incredible, "Why didn't I think to ask that question myself?"
- LFLex Fridman
(laughs) Yeah.
- KSKevin Spacey
That's what you have directors for. That's what you have, you know, so many places where ideas can come from. Um, but that just illustrates that even though in my brain I go, "I always like to work backwards." Again, I- I missed it in- in that one, and I'm very grateful to my- to my friend for having pushed me into being able to realize what that meant and ...
- LFLex Fridman
To ask the interesting question.
- 28:10 – 36:54
Improve
- LFLex Fridman
The- I like the- the poetry and the humility of, "I'm just a series of colors in someone else's painting." That was a good line. Uh, that said, you've talked about improvisation. You said that it's all about the ability to do it again and again and again, and yet never make it the same. And you also just said that you- you're trying to stay true to the text. So where's the room for the improvisation, that it's never the same?
- KSKevin Spacey
Well, there's two slightly different contexts, I think. One is, in the rehearsal room, um, improvisation can be a wonderful device. I mean, Sam Mendes, for example, will- will start, uh, he'll start a scene and he- he does this wonderful thing. He brings rugs and he brings chairs and sofas in, and he says, "Well, let's- let's put- let's put two chairs here and here. You guys, let's start in these chairs far apart from each other. Let's see what happens with the scene if- if you're that far apart." And so we'll do the scene that way. And then he goes, "Okay, um, let's bring a rug in and let's bring these chairs much closer, and let's see what happens if- if- if the space, if the space between you is ..." And so then you- you- you try it that way. And then, you know, it's a little harder in Shakespeare to improv (laughs) . Um, but in any situation where you- you want to try and see where- where could a scene go. "Where would the scene go if I didn't make that choice? Where would the scene go if I made this choice? Where would the scene go if I didn't say that, or I said something else?" So, that's how improv can be, um, a valuable process to learn, um, about limits and- and boundaries, um, and what's going on with a- a character that somehow you discover in- in- in trying something that isn't on the page. Then there's the different thing which is the trying to make it fresh and trying to make it new, and that is really a reference to theater. Um ... I'll put it to you this way. Um, anybody loves sports, right? So you go and you watch on a pitch, you watch on a tennis game, you watch basketball, you watch football-Yeah, the rules are the same, but it's a different game every time you're out on that court or on that field. It's no different in theater. Yes, it's the same lines, maybe even blocking is similar, but what's different is attack, intention, how you are growing in a role, and watching your fellow actors grow in theirs, and how every night it's a new audience, and they're reacting differently. And you literally... Where you can go from week one of performances in a play to week 12 is extraordinary. And the difference between theater and film is that no matter how good someone might think you are in a movie, you'll never be any better. It's frozen. Whereas I can be better tomorrow night than I was tonight. I can be better in a week than I was tonight. It is a living, breathing, shifting, changing, growing thing every single day.
- LFLex Fridman
But also in theater, there's no safety net. If you fuck it up, everybody gets to see you do that.
- KSKevin Spacey
And if you start giggling on stage, everyone gets to see you do that too. Which I am very guilty of. (laughs)
- LFLex Fridman
(laughs) I mean, there is something, uh, of a seduction of an audience in theater, even more intense than there is when you're talking about film. There's... I got a chance to watch the documentary Now in the Wings on the World Stage, which is a behind the scenes of... You mentioned, uh, you teaming up with Sam Mendes in 2011 to stage Richard III, uh, a play by William Shakespeare. I was also surprised to learn you haven't really done much Shakespeare. Or at least you said that in the, uh, (laughs) in the movie. But w- there's a lot of interesting behind the scenes stuff there. Uh, first of all, the comradery of everybody. How like the bond theater creates, especially when you're traveling. But the... Another interesting thing, you mentioned with the chairs, of Sam Mendes trying different stuff. It seemed like everybody was really open to trying stuff, embarrassing themselves, taking risks, all of that. I suppose that's part of acting in general, but theater especially. Just take risks. It's okay to embarrass the shit outta yourself, including the director.
- KSKevin Spacey
And it's also because, um, you become a family, you know? It's u- unlike a movie where, you know, I might have a scene with so-and-so on this day and then another scene with them in a week and a half, and then that's the only scenes we have in the whole movie together. Um, every single day when you show up in the rehearsal room, it's the whole company. You're all up for it every day. You're learning, you're growing, you're trying. And, and there is a, um, an incredible trust that happens, and I was of course fortunate that, that some of the... Some of the things I learned and observed about, um, being a part of that family, being included in that family and, and being a part of creating that family, I, I was able to observe from, from people like Jack Lemmon who, who led many companies that, that I was fortunate to, to work in and, and be a part of.
- LFLex Fridman
There's also a sad moment where at the end everybody is really sad to say goodbye, 'cause you do form a family and then it's over.
- KSKevin Spacey
Hmm.
- LFLex Fridman
Hmm, I guess somebody said that that's just part of theater. It's like... I mean, there's a kind of assumed goodbye and that this is it.
- KSKevin Spacey
Yeah, and also there are some times when, like six months later I'll wake up in the middle of the night and I'll go, "That's how to play that scene."
- LFLex Fridman
(laughs) Yeah. Yeah, yeah.
- KSKevin Spacey
"Oh, god, I just finally figured it out." (laughs)
- LFLex Fridman
(laughs) So maybe you could speak a little bit more to that. What's the difference between film acting and live theater acting?
- KSKevin Spacey
I don't really think there is any. I think there's just... You eventually learn about yourself on film, you know? When I f- first did, like, my first episode of The Equalizer, um, you know, it's just, it's just... It's horrible. It's just so bad, um, but I didn't know about myself, I didn't... So slowly you begin to learn about yourself, but I think good acting is good acting, and I think that, you know, if you... If the camera's right here, you, you know that your, your front row is also your back row. You just don't have to... You don't have to do so much. There is, in theater, a particular kind of energy, almost like an athlete, that you have to have vocally to be able to get up seven performances a week and never lose your voice, and always be there, and always be alive, and always be doing the best work you can, that you just don't require in film, you know? You don't have to have the same, um... It, it just doesn't require the same, uh, kind of stamina that doing a play does.
- LFLex Fridman
It just feels like also in theater, you have to become the character more intensely because (laughs) you can't take a break. You can't take a bathroom break. You're, like, on stage. There's no... This is you.
- KSKevin Spacey
Yeah, but you have no idea what's going on on stage with the actors. I mean, I, I, I, I have literally laughed through speeches that I had to give because my fellow actors were putting carrots up their nose or-
- LFLex Fridman
Yeah.
- KSKevin Spacey
... broccoli in their ears, or doing whatever they were doing to make me laugh.
- LFLex Fridman
So they're just having fun.
- KSKevin Spacey
They're having the time of their life, and by the way-... Judi Dench is the worst giggler of all.
- LFLex Fridman
Yeah.
- KSKevin Spacey
I mean, they had to bring the curtain down on her and Maggie Smith because they were laughing so hard, they could not continue the play.
- LFLex Fridman
So even when you're doing, like, a dramatic monologue, still, they're still fucking with you.
- KSKevin Spacey
There's stuff... (laughs) .
- LFLex Fridman
Okay. That's great.
- KSKevin Spacey
Yeah.
- 36:54 – 40:38
Al Pacino
- KSKevin Spacey
- LFLex Fridman
That's good to know. You also said, interesting line, that improvisation helps you, uh, learn about the character. Uh, can you explain that? So, like, through maybe playing with the different ways of saying the words, or the different ways to bring the words to life, you get to learn about yourself, about the character you're playing.
- KSKevin Spacey
It can be helpful. Um, but improv is... I- I'm a big, such a big believer in the, in the, the writing and in serving the writing, and doing the words the writer wrote. Um, that improv for, for me, unless you're just doing, like, comedy and, you know, like... I mean, I love improv and, and comedy. It's- it's brilliant. Um, so much fun to watch people just come up with something right there. Um, but you're, you know, that- that's where you're looking for laughs and you're, you're specifically in a little scene that's being created. Um, but I- I think improv is, has had value. Um, but I- I- I have not experienced it as much in doing plays. Um, a- as I have sometimes in doing, in doing film where you'll, you'll start off rehearsing and the director may say, "Let's just go off book and see what happens." And I've had moments in film where someone went off book and it was terrifying.
- LFLex Fridman
(laughs)
- KSKevin Spacey
There was a scene I had in Glengarry Glen Ross where the character I play has, has fucked something up, has just screwed something up, and Pacino is livid. And so we had this scene where Al is walking like this and the camera's moving with him, and he is showing me a new asshole. And in the middle of the take, Al starts talking about me. "Oh. Kevin. You don't think we know how you got this job? You don't think we know whose dick you've been sucking on to get this part in this movie?" And I'm now... I'm literally like, I do- I don't know what the hell is happening, but I'm reacting. We got to the end of that take, Al walked up to me and he went, "Oh."
- LFLex Fridman
(laughs)
- KSKevin Spacey
"That was so good. Oh my God, that was so good. Just so you know, the sound, I asked them not to record. So, you have no dialogue. So, it's just me. Oh, that was so good."
- LFLex Fridman
(laughs)
- KSKevin Spacey
"You look, you look like a car wreck."
- LFLex Fridman
Yeah.
- KSKevin Spacey
And I was like, "Yeah." And it was actually an incredibly generous thing that he gave me so that I would react.
- LFLex Fridman
Oh, wow. Did they use that shot? Because you were in the shot.
- KSKevin Spacey
That's the take.
- LFLex Fridman
(laughs)
- KSKevin Spacey
It was my closeup.
- LFLex Fridman
Yeah. Yeah.
- KSKevin Spacey
And yeah, that's the take.
- LFLex Fridman
That was an intense interac- I mean, what was it like? If we can just linger on that, just that intense scene with Al Pacino.
- KSKevin Spacey
Well, he's the reason I got the movie. A lot of people might think it- it was because Jack was in the film that he had something to do with it, but actually, I was doing a play called Lost in Yonkers on Broadway. And we had the same dresser who'd worked with him, a girl named Laura who was wonderful, uh, Laura Beatty. And, uh, she told Al that he should come and see this play because she wanted to see me in this play. I was playing this gangster's fun, fun, fun part.
- 40:38 – 49:55
Jack Lemmon
- KSKevin Spacey
So I didn't know Pacino came on some night and saw this play. And then like three days later, I got a call to come in and audition for this Glengarry Glen Ross, which of course I knew is a play, David Mamet's play. And then, uh, I auditioned. Jamie Foley was the director, who would eventually direct a bunch of House of Cards. Wonderful, wonderful guy. And I got the part. Well, I didn't quite get the part. They were gonna bring together the actors that they thought they were gonna give the parts to on a Saturday at Al's office, and they asked me if I would come and do a read through. And I said, "Who's gonna be there?" And they said, "Well, so-and-so and so-and-so and so-onde, and Jack Lemmon is flying in." And I said, "Don't tell Mr. Lemmon that I'm doing the read through. Is that possible?" And they were like, "Sure." So I'll never forget this. Jack was sitting in a chair in Pacino's office doing the New York Times crossword puzzle as he did every day. Just like this. And I walked in the door and he went, "Oh, Jesus Christ."
- LFLex Fridman
(laughs)
- KSKevin Spacey
"Is it possible you could get a job without me? Jesus Christ."
- LFLex Fridman
(laughs)
- KSKevin Spacey
"I'm so tired of holding up your end of it. Oh my God, Jesus Christ." Um, so that's, I got the job, job because of, of Pacino and, and it, you know, I, I was, it was, it was really one of the first major roles that I ever had in a film. And you know, to be working with that group.
- LFLex Fridman
Yeah, that's, like, one of the greatest ensemble casts ever. We got Al Pacino, Jack Lemmon, Alec Baldwin, Alan Arkin, Ed Harris, you (laughs) , uh, Jonathan Pryce.
- KSKevin Spacey
Mm-hmm.
- LFLex Fridman
It's just incredible. And I was- I have to say, I mean, maybe you can comment. You've, you've, you've talked about how m- how much of a mentor and a friend Jack Lemmon has been. That's one of his greatest performances ever.
- KSKevin Spacey
Ever.
- LFLex Fridman
You have a scene at the end of the movie with him that was really powerful.
- KSKevin Spacey
Mm-hmm.
- LFLex Fridman
Like firing on all cylinders. You're playing disdain to perfection, and he's playing desperation to perfection.... what a scene. What was that like? Just, like, at the top of your game, the two of you.
- KSKevin Spacey
Well, by that time, we had done Long Day's Journey into Night in the theater. We'd done a miniseries called The Murder of Mary Phagan on NBC. We'd done a film called Dad that Gary David Goldberg directed with Ted Danson. So this was the fourth time we were working together and we knew each other. We'd become, he'd become my father figure. And, and I don't know if you know that I originally met Jack Lemmon when I was very, very young. He was doing production at the Mark Taper Forum of a Seán O'Casey play called Juno and the Paycock with Walter Matthau and Maureen Stapleton, and on a Saturday in December of 1974, my junior high school drama class went to a workshop. It was called How to Audition, and we did this workshop. Many schools in Southern California were part of this Drama Teachers Association, so we got these incredible experiences of being able to go see professional productions and be involved in these workshops or festivals. So I had to get up and do a monologue in front of Mr. Lemmon when I was 13 years old, and he walked up to me at the end of that, and he put his hand on my shoulder, and he said, "That was just actually terrific." He said, "No, I mean, there, everything I've been talking about, you just did. Yeah, wha- what's your name?" I said, "Kevin." He said, "Well, let me tell you something. When you get finished with high school, as I'm sure you're gonna go on and do theater, you should go to New York and you should study to be an actor 'cause this is what you're meant to do with your life." And he was like an idol. And 12 years later, I read in the New York Times that he was coming to Broadway to do this production of A Long Day's Journey into Night a year and some months after I read this article, and I was like, "I'm gonna play Jamie in that production." And I then, with a lot of opposition, 'cause the casting director didn't wanna see me. They, they said that the director, Jonathan Miller, uh, wanted movie actors to play the two sons. And ultimately, I, I, uh, I found out that Jonathan Miller, the director, was coming to New York to do a series of lectures at Alice Tully Hall, and I, uh, went to try to figure out how I could maybe meet him. And, uh, I was sitting in that theater listening to this incredible lecture that he was doing, and sitting next to me was an elderly woman. And, uh, I mean, elderly, 80-something, and she was asleep. But sticking out of her handbag, which was on the floor, was a invitation to a cocktail reception in honor of Dr. Jonathan Miller, and so I, I thought, (sighs) "You know, she's tired. She's probably gonna go home." So I, (laughs) I, I took that and walked into this cocktail reception and ultimately went over to Dr. Miller, who was incredibly kind, and said, "Sit, just sit down there. I'm always very curious what brings young people to my lectures." And I said to him, "Eugene O'Neill brought me here." He was like, "Wha- wha- what? I've always wanted to meet him. Where is he?" And, uh, I told him that I'd been trying for seven months to get an audition for Long Day's Journey into Night and that his American casting directors were telling my agents that he wanted big American movie stars. And at that moment, he turned and he saw one of those casting directors who was there that night, 'cause I knew he was gonna be in New York starting auditions that week. And she was staring daggers at me, and he just got it. And he said, "Someone have a pen?" And he took a little paper and started writing. He said, "Listen, Kevin. There, there are many situations in which casting directors have a lot of say and a lot of power and a lot of leverage, and then there are other situations where they just take directors' messages, and on this one, they're taking my messages. This is where I'm staying. Make sure you people get to me. We start auditions on Thursday." And on Thursday, I had an opportunity to come in and audition for this play that I'd been working on and preparing, and at the end of it, I did four scenes. At the end of it, he said to me that unless someone else came in and blew him against the wall like I had just done, as far as he was concerned, I pretty much had the part, but I couldn't tell my agents that yet 'cause I had to come back and read with Mr. Lemmon. And so three months later, in August of 1985, I found myself in a room with Jack Lemmon again at 890 Broadway, which is where they rehearsed a lot of the Broadway plays, and we did four scenes together, and I was toppling over him. I was pushing him. I was, I was relentless. And I'll never forget at the end of that, Lemmon came over to me, he put his hand on my shoulder, and he said, "That was just actually terrific. I never thought we'd find the rotten kid, but Jesus, Jesus Christ, what the hell was that?" And I ended up spending the next year of my life with that man.
- LFLex Fridman
So it turns out he was right. (laughs)
- KSKevin Spacey
Yeah.
- LFLex Fridman
This world works in mysterious ways. It also speaks to the fact of the power of somebody you look up to giving words of encouragement, 'cause those can just reverberate through your whole life and just, like, make the path clear.
- KSKevin Spacey
I've always... We used to, we used to joke that, uh, if every contract came with a Jack Lemmon clause, it would be a more beautiful world.
- LFLex Fridman
Beautifully said. Jack Lemmon is one of the greatest actors ever. What do you think makes him so damn good?
- KSKevin Spacey
Pah, wow, um...... I think he, I think he truly set out in his life to accomplish what his father said to him on his deathbed. His father was die... His father was, by the way, called The Donut King in Boston. And, uh, not in the entertainment business at all. He was a literally... Owned a donut company and, uh, when he was passing away, Jack said, "The last thing my father said to me was, 'Go out there and spread a little sunshine.'" And I truly think that's what Jack loved to do. I remember this, um, a- and I don't know if this is, uh, will answer your question, but I think it's revealing about what he's able to do and what he was able to do and how that ultimately influenced what I was able to do.
- 49:55 – 1:10:04
American Beauty
- KSKevin Spacey
Sam Mendes had never directed a film before American Beauty. And so what he did was he took the best elements of theater and applied them to the process. So we rehearsed it like a play, in a sound stage where everything was laid out like it would be in a play, "And this couch will be here," oh. And he'd sent me a couple of tapes. He'd sent me, uh, two cassette tapes, one that he liked to call Pre-Lester, before he begins to, um, move in a new direction, and then Post-Lester. And they just were different songs. Um, and then he said to me one day, and I think... Always thought this was brilliant of Sam to use Lemon, knowing what Lemon meant to me. He said that, "When was the last time you watched The Apartment?" And I said, "Ah, I don't know. I mean, it's... I love that movie so much." He goes, "I want you to watch it again, and then let's talk." So I went and I watched the movie again, and we sat down and Sam said, "What Lemon does in that film is incredible because there is never a moment in the movie where we see him change. He just evolves and he becomes the man he becomes because of the experiences that he has through the course of the film, but there's this remarkable consistency in who he becomes and that's what I need you to do as Lester. I don't want the audience to ever see him change. I want him to evolve." And so we did some... I mean, first of all, it was just a great direction and then second of all, we did some things that people don't know we did to aid that gradual shift of that man's character. First of all, I had to be in the best shape from the beginning of the movie 'cause we didn't shoot it in sequence, so I was in this crazy shape. I had this wonderful, uh, trainer named Mike Torsha, who just was incredible. But, so what we did was, in order to then show this gradual shift was I had three different hair pieces, I had three different kinds of costumes of different colors and sizes, and I had different makeup. So in the beginning, I was wearing a kind of drab, dull, slightly, you know, uninspired hair piece and my makeup was kind of gray and boring and I was a little bit... There were times when I was, like, too much like this and Sam would go, "Kevin, you look like Walter Matthau. Would you please stand up a little bit? We're sort of midway through at this point." And then at a certain point, the wig changed and it had little highlights in it, a little more color, a little more... The makeup became a little... The, the suits got a little tighter. And then finally, a third wig that was golden highlights and sunshine and, and, you know, rosy cheeks and tight fit. And these are what we call theatrical tricks, you know. This is, this is how you... An audience doesn't even know it's happening, but it is this gradual... And I just always felt that that was such a, um, a brilliant way because he knew what I felt about Jack and when you watch The Apartment, it is extraordinary that he doesn't ever change. He just... So I'm, I'm... And in fact, I, I thanked Jack, um, when I won the Oscar and, uh... (laughs) He, he... I, I did my thank you speech and I walked off stage and I remember I had to sit down for a moment because I didn't want to go d- I didn't want to go to the press room because I wanted to see if Sam was gonna win. And so I was waiting and my phone rang and it was Lemon. He said, "You're a son of a bitch."
- LFLex Fridman
(laughs)
- KSKevin Spacey
I s- I said, "What?" He goes, "Do you... Uh, first of all, uh, congratulations and thanks for thanking me 'cause, you know, God knows you couldn't have done it without me."
- LFLex Fridman
(laughs)
- KSKevin Spacey
He said, "Second of all..." He said, "Do you know how long it took me to win, uh, from supporting actor? I won it, it, in, uh, for Mr. Roberts and it took me, like, 10, 12 years to win a Oscar. You did it in four, you son of a bitch."
- LFLex Fridman
(laughs) Yeah. The Apartment was... I mean, it's widely considered one of the greatest movies ever. People sometimes refer to it as a comedy, which is an interesting kind of classification. I suppose that's a lesson about comedy that the best...... uh, the best comedy is the one that's basically a tragedy. (laughs)
- KSKevin Spacey
Well, I mean, like some people think Clockwork Orange is a comedy.
- LFLex Fridman
(laughs)
- KSKevin Spacey
And I'm not saying-
- LFLex Fridman
Yeah.
- KSKevin Spacey
... there aren't some good laughs in Clockwork Orange.
- LFLex Fridman
Yeah.
- KSKevin Spacey
But yeah, you know, it's...
- LFLex Fridman
I mean, yeah. The, is, what's that line between, uh, comedy and tragedy for you?
- KSKevin Spacey
(sighs) I, well, if, if it's a line, it's a line I cross all the time. Because I've tried always to find the humor, um, unexpected sometimes, uh, maybe inappropriate sometimes, maybe shocking. But I've tried in I think almost every dramatic role I've had, to have a sense of humor, and to be able to bring that, uh, along with everything else that is serious. Because frankly, that's how we deal with stuff in life, you know?
- LFLex Fridman
I think, uh, Sam Mendes actually said in the Now documentary, something like, "With great theater, with, with great stories, you find humor on the journey to the heart of darkness." Something like this.
- KSKevin Spacey
(laughs)
- LFLex Fridman
Very poetic.
- KSKevin Spacey
Yeah.
- LFLex Fridman
Stood out to me.
- KSKevin Spacey
Yeah.
- LFLex Fridman
But it's true.
- KSKevin Spacey
I can't, I'm sorry I can't be that poetic. I was... (laughs)
- LFLex Fridman
(laughs)
- KSKevin Spacey
I'm very sorry.
- LFLex Fridman
But it's true. I mean, uh, the, the, the people I've interacted in this world have been to a war zone, and the ones who have lost the most and have suffered the most are, are usually the ones who are able to, uh, make jokes the quickest.
- KSKevin Spacey
Mm-hmm.
- LFLex Fridman
And the jokes are often dark and absurd, and cross every single line, no political correctness, all of that.
- KSKevin Spacey
Sure. Well, I mean, you know, it's like, uh, The Great Mary Tyler Moore Show, where they can't stop giggling at, at the clown's funeral. I mean, it's, it's just one of the great episodes ever. You know? (laughs) Giggling at a funeral is as bad as farting at a funeral.
- LFLex Fridman
Yeah.
- 1:10:04 – 1:12:52
Mortality
- KSKevin Spacey
- LFLex Fridman
Mortality also permeates the film. You know, it starts with acknowledging that death is on the way. That, uh, your, your... L- Lester's time is finite. You ever think about your own death?
- KSKevin Spacey
Yeah. Yeah.
- LFLex Fridman
Scared of it?
- KSKevin Spacey
Um... when I was at my lowest point, yes, it scared me.
- LFLex Fridman
What, what does that fear look like? What... what's the nature of the fear? What are you afraid of?
- KSKevin Spacey
That there's no way out. That there's no answer. Um... that nothing makes sense.
- LFLex Fridman
See, the interesting thing about Lester is, facing the same fear, he seemed to be somehow liberated and accepted everything.
- KSKevin Spacey
Yeah.
- LFLex Fridman
And then saw the beauty of it.
- KSKevin Spacey
'Cause he got there.
- LFLex Fridman
(laughs)
- KSKevin Spacey
He was given the opportunity to- to reinvent himself and to, and to try things he'd never tried, to ask questions he'd never asked. To, to trust his instincts, and to become the best version of himself he could become. And so, (laughs) Dick Van Dyke, who is, uh... has become an extraordinary friend of mine... (laughs) Dick is 98 years old, and he says, "You know, if I'd known I was gonna live this long, I would have taken better care of myself." Um... when I spend time with him, I- I'm just moved by... every day, you know, he gets up and he goes, "It's a good day. I woke up." And I learn a lot about... I- I have a different feeling about death now than I did seven years ago, uh... and I am on the path to being able to be in a place where I've resolved the things I needed to resolve. And won't, won't probably get to all of it in my lifetime, but I certainly would like to be at a place where, if I were to, if I were to drop dead tomorrow, it would have been an amazing life.
- LFLex Fridman
So Lester got there. It sounds like Dick Van Dyke got there. You're trying to get there.
- KSKevin Spacey
Sure.
- 1:12:52 – 1:30:50
Allegations
- KSKevin Spacey
- LFLex Fridman
You said you feared death at your lowest point. What was the lowest point?
- KSKevin Spacey
It was November 1st of 2017, and then Thanksgiving Day of that same year.
- LFLex Fridman
So let's talk about it. Let's talk about this dark time.Let's talk about the sexual allegations against you that led to you being canceled by, uh, well, the entire world for the last seven years. I would like to personally understand the sins, the bad things you did and the bad things you didn't do. So I also sh- should say that the thing I hope to do here is to give respect to due process, innocent until proven guilty, that the mass hysteria machine of the internet and clickbait journalism-
- KSKevin Spacey
Mm-hmm.
- LFLex Fridman
... doesn't do. So here's what I understand. There were criminal and civil trials brought against you, including the one that started it all when Anthony Rapp sued you for $40 million. In these trials, you were acquitted, found not guilty and not liable. Is that right?
- KSKevin Spacey
Yes.
- LFLex Fridman
I think that's really important, again, in terms of due process. And I read a- a lot and I watched a lot in preparation for this on this- on this point, um, including, of course, the recently, uh, detailed interviews you did with, uh, Dan Wootton and then Allison Pearson of The Telegraph, and those were all focused on this topic, and they go in detail where you respond in detail to many of the allegations. If people are interested in the details, they can listen to those. So based on that and everything I looked at, as I understand, you never prevented anyone from leaving if they wanted to, sort of in the sexual context, for example, by blocking the door. Is that right?
- KSKevin Spacey
That's correct, yeah.
- LFLex Fridman
You always respected the explicit no from people, again, in a sexual context. Is that right?
- KSKevin Spacey
That is correct.
- LFLex Fridman
You've never done anything sexual with an underage person, right?
- KSKevin Spacey
Never.
- LFLex Fridman
And also, as is sometimes done in Hollywood, let me ask this. You've never explicitly offered to exchange sexual favors for career advancement, correct?
- KSKevin Spacey
Correct.
- LFLex Fridman
In terms of bad behavior, what did you do? What was the worst of it, and how often did you do it?
- KSKevin Spacey
I have heard now quite often that everybody has a Kevin Spacey story. Um, and what that tells me is that I hit on a lot of guys.
- LFLex Fridman
How often did you cross the line, and what does that mean to you?
- KSKevin Spacey
I did a lot of horsing around. I did a lot of things that at the time I thought were sort of playful and fun, and I have learned since were not. And I have had to recognize that I- I crossed some boundaries and I did some things that were wrong, and I made some mistakes, and that's in my past. I mean, I've been working so hard over these last seven years to have the conversations I needed to have, to listen to people, to understand things from a different perspective than the one that I had, and to say, "I will never behave that way again for the rest of my life."
- LFLex Fridman
Just to clarify, I think you're often too pushy with the flirting, and that manifests itself in- in multiple ways. Uh, just to make clear, you never prevented anyone from leaving if they wanted to. You always took the explicit no from people as an answer. "No, stop." You took that for the answer. You've never done anything sexual with an underage person, and you've never explicitly offered to exchange sexual favors for career advancement. These are some of the sort of accusations that have been made-
- KSKevin Spacey
Yeah.
- LFLex Fridman
...and in the court of law multiple times have been shown not to be true.
- KSKevin Spacey
But I have had a sexual life, and I've fallen in love, and I've been so admir- admiring of people that I- that I- I mean, I'm- I'm so romantic. I'm such a romantic person that there's this whole side of me that hasn't been talked about, isn't being discussed, but that's- that's who I know. That's the person I know. It's been very upsetting to hear that some people have said I... I mean, I don't have a violent bone in my body, but to hear people describe things as having been very aggressive is incredibly, um, difficult for me, and I am deeply sorry that I ever offended anyone or hurt anyone in any way. It is- it is crushing to me, and I have to work very hard to show and to prove that I have learned, um, I got the memo, and I will never, ever, ever behave in those ways again.
- LFLex Fridman
From everything I've seen in public interactions with you, people love you. Colleagues love you. Coworkers love you. They- t- there's a flirtatiousness. Another word for that is chemistry. There's a chemistry between the people you work with.
- KSKevin Spacey
And by the way, not to take anything away from my accountability for things I did where I got it wrong, I crossed the line, I pushed some boundaries. I accept all of that. But I live in an industry in which flirtation, uh, attraction, people meeting in the workspace and ending up marrying each other and having children, and so it is a- it is a- it is a space and a place where these notions of family, these notions of attraction, these notions of... Uh, it's always complicated if you meet someone in the workspace and find yourselves attracted to each other. You have to be mindful of that, and you have to be very mindful that you don't ever want anyone to feel that, um, their job is in jeopardy, um, or you would punish them in some way if they no longer wanted to be with you. So th- those are important, uh, things to just acknowledge.
- LFLex Fridman
Another complexity to this, as-- as I've seen, is that there's just a huge number of actors that look up to you. A-- a huge number of people in the industry that look up to you. So, just... And love you. I-- I've seen, just from this documentary, just a lot of people just love being around you. Uh, learning from you what it means to create great theater, great film, great stories. And so that adds to the complexity. I wouldn't say it's a power dynamic, like a boss-employee relationship. It's a admiration dynamic that is easy to miss and easy to take advantage of. Is that something you understand?
- KSKevin Spacey
Yes. And I also understand that there are people who met me and spent a very brief period of time with me, but presumed I was now going to be their mentor, and then behaved in a way that I was unaware of, that they were either participating or flirting along, uh, or encouraging me, uh, without me having any idea that-- that at the end of the day, they were expecting something. Um, so th- these are about relationships. These are about two people. These are about people making decisions, people making choices, and I-- I accept my accountability in that. But there are a number of things that I've been accused of that just simply did not happen, and-- and I can't say, and I don't think it would be right for me to say, "Well, I-- I... You know, everything that's ever been, I've been accused of is true." Because we've now proved that it isn't, and it wasn't. Um, but I'm perfectly willing to accept that I had behaviors that were wrong, and that I shouldn't have done, and I am regretful for.
- LFLex Fridman
I think this also speaks to a dark side of fame. The sense I got is that there are some people, potentially a lot of people, trying to make friends with you in order to get roles, in order to advance their career. So, not you using them, but they trying to use you. Uh ... What's that like? How do you know if somebody likes you for you, for Kevin, or likes you for, uh ... Like, you-- you said you're a romantic.
- KSKevin Spacey
Mm-hmm.
- LFLex Fridman
You see a person, and you're like, "I like this person," and they seem to like you. How do you know if they like you for you?
- 1:30:50 – 1:49:25
House of Cards
- KSKevin Spacey
- LFLex Fridman
So as you said, your darkest moment in 2017 when all of this went down, uh, one of the things that happened is you were no longer on the House of Cards for the last season. Uh, let's go to the beginning of that show.
- KSKevin Spacey
Okay.
- LFLex Fridman
One of the greatest TV series of all time, a dark, fascinating character in Frank Underwood, a ruthless, cunning, borderline evil politician. Uh, what are some interesting aspects, uh, to the process you went through f- becoming Frank Underwood? Maybe Richard III, there's a lot of elements there in your performance that maybe, uh, inspired that character.
- KSKevin Spacey
Well-
- LFLex Fridman
Is that fair or no?
- KSKevin Spacey
I'll give you, uh, I'll give you one very interesting, um, specific education that I got in doing Richard III and closing that show at BAM in March of 2012, and two months later, started shooting House of Cards. There is something called direct address. Um, in Shakespeare, um, you have Hamlet talks to the world. But when Shakespeare wrote Richard III, it was the first time he created something called direct address, which is the character looks directly at each person close by. It is a different kind of, uh, sharing than when a character's doing a monologue, an opening of Henry IV. Um, and while there are some people who believe that direct address was invented in Ferris Bueller, it wasn't. It was Shakespeare who invented it. So I had just had this experience every night in theaters all over the world, seeing how people reacted to becoming a co-conspirator because that's what it's about. And what I tried to do and what, uh, Fincher really helped me with in those beginning days, um, was how to look in that camera and imagine I was talking to my best friend.
- LFLex Fridman
Because you're sharing the secret of the darkness of how this game is played-
- KSKevin Spacey
Yeah.
- LFLex Fridman
... with that best friend.
- KSKevin Spacey
Yeah, and there were many times when, um, I- I- I suppose the writers thought I was crazy where I would see a script, and I would see, like, this moment where this direct address would happen. He'd say all this stuff, and I'd go... When we'd do a readthrough of the script, I'd go, "I don't think I need to say any of that." And they were like, "What do you mean?" I said, "Well, the audience knows all of that. All I have to do is look. They know exactly what's going on. I don't need to say a thing."
- LFLex Fridman
Yeah.
- KSKevin Spacey
So I was often cutting (laughs) dialogue, um, because it just wasn't needed, because that relationship between... that I'd learned, that I'd experienced during Richard III was so extraordinary, where I literally watched people... They were like, "Oh, I'm in on the thing, and this is, oh, so awesome." And then suddenly, "Wait, he killed the kids. He killed those kids in the tower. Oh, maybe it's not so..." And you literally would watch them start to re- reverse their having had such a great time with Richard III in the first, you know, three acts. I thought, "This is gonna happen in this show if this, um, intimacy can actually land." Um, and I think, just think there was some brilliant writing, and we always attempted to do it in one take. No matter how long something was, we would try to do it in one take, the direct addresses. So there was never a cut. When we went out on locations, we started to then find ways to cut it and make it slightly broader, but...
- LFLex Fridman
That's interesting 'cause you're, you're doing a bunch of... with both Richard III and Frank Underwood, a bunch of, uh, dark, borderline evil things. And then I guess the idea is you're going to be losing the audience, and then you win them back over with the addresses.
- KSKevin Spacey
That's the remarkable thing, is against their instincts and their better sense of what they should and should not do, they still rallied around Frank Underwood.
- LFLex Fridman
And I saw even with the documentary, the glimmers of that with Richard III. I mean, you were seducing the audience. Like, there was such a chemistry between you and the audience on stage.
- KSKevin Spacey
Yeah, yeah, well, A, in-
- LFLex Fridman
What is that?
- KSKevin Spacey
... in that production, that's absolutely true. Um, also, Richard is one of the weirder... Uh, weird, I mean by weird, it was an early play of Shakespeare's. And he's basically never offstage. I mean, I remember when we did the first run-through, I had no idea what the next scene was every time I came offstage. I had no idea what was next. They literally had to drag me from one place to another scene. "Now it's the scene with Hastings. Now it's the scene..." But I now understand these wonderful stories that you can read in, in old books about Shakespeare's time, that actors grabbed Shakespeare around the cuff and punched him and threw him up against a wall and said, "You ever write a part like this again, I'm gonna kill you." And that's why, in later plays, he started to have... a pageant happened-
- LFLex Fridman
(laughs)
- KSKevin Spacey
... and then a wedding happened, and the main character was offstage resting because-
- LFLex Fridman
Yeah.
- KSKevin Spacey
... the actor had said, "You can't do this to us. There's no breaks." (laughs) And it's true. There's very few breaks in Richard III. You're on stage most of the time.
- LFLex Fridman
The comedic aspect of Richard III and Frank Underwood, is, is that a component that helps bring out the full complexity of the, the darkness that is Frank Underwood?
- KSKevin Spacey
I- I certainly can't, uh, take credit for Shakespeare having written something that is funny or Bewilman and his team to have written something that is funny. It's fundamentally funny.... it just depends on how, on how I interpret it, on, on, uh, you know. There are... You know, that's one of the great things that why we love... You know, in a year's time, we can see five different Hamlets. We can see four Richard III's. We can see two Richard II's. That's part of the thrill, that we don't own these parts. We borrow them, and we interpret them. And what Ian McKellen might do s- with a role could be completely different from what I might do, because of the way we perceive it. And also, very often, in terms of going for humor, it's very often a director will say, "Why don't you say that with a bit of irony?"
Episode duration: 2:19:08
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