Lisa Feldman Barrett: Love, Evolution, and the Human Brain | Lex Fridman Podcast #140

1. 0:00 – 2:10

   Introduction

   1. LFLex Fridman0:00

      The following is a conversation with Lisa Feldman Barrett, her second time on the podcast. She's a neuroscientist at Northeastern University, and one of my favorite people. Her new book called Seven and a Half Lessons About the Brain is out now, as of a couple of days ago, so you should definitely support Lisa by buying it and sharing with friends if you like it. It's a great short intro to the human brain. Quick mention of each sponsor, followed by some thoughts related to the episode. Athletic Greens, the all-in-one drink that I start every day with to cover all my nutritional bases. Eight Sleep, a mattress that cools itself and gives me yet another reason to enjoy sleep. Masterclass, online courses that I enjoy from some of the most amazing people in history. And Better Help, online therapy with a licensed professional. Please check out these sponsors in the description to get a discount and to support this podcast. As a side note, let me say that Lisa, just like Manolis Callis, is a local brilliant mind and friend, and someone I can see talking to many more times. Sometimes it's fun to talk to a scientist not just about their field of expertise, but also about random topics, even silly ones, from love to music to philosophy. Ultimately, it's about having fun, something I know nothing about. This conversation is certainly that. It may not always work, but it's worth a shot. I think it's valuable to alternate along all kinds of dimensions, like between deeper technical discussions and more fun, random discussion, from liberal thinker to conservative thinker, from musician to athlete, from CEO to junior engineer, from friend to stranger. Variety makes life and conversation more interesting. Let's see where this little podcast journey goes. If you enjoy this thing, subscribe on YouTube, review it with five stars on Apple Podcast, follow on Spotify, support on Patreon, or connect with me on Twitter @lexfridman. And now, here's my conversation with Lisa Feldman Barrett.

2. 2:10 – 19:54

   Falling in love

   1. LFLex Fridman2:11

      Based on the comments in our previous conversation, I think a lot of people will be very disappointed, I should say, to learn that you are in fact married.

   2. LBLisa Feldman Barrett2:20

      (laughs)

   3. LFLex Fridman2:21

      As they say, all the good ones are taken. Okay. So, uh, I'm a fan of your husband, uh, as well, Dan. He's a programmer and musician. So, um, a man after my own heart. Can I ask, uh, a ridiculously over-romanticized question of when did you first fall in love with Dan?

   4. LBLisa Feldman Barrett2:41

      It's actually ... It's a really- it's a really romantic story, I think. So, I was divorced by the time I was 26, 27. 26, I guess. And I was in my first academic job, which was Penn State University, which is in the middle of Pennsylvania, surrounded by mountains, so you have- it's four hours to get anywhere. To get to Philadelphia, New York, Washington. I mean, you're basically stuck, you know. Um, and I was very fortunate to have, um, a lot of other assistant professors who were hired at the same time as I was, so there were a lot of us. We were all friends, which was really fun. Um, but I was single and I didn't want to date a student, and there were no ... And I wasn't gonna date somebody in my department. That's just a recipe for disaster.

   5. LFLex Fridman3:32

      Yeah.

   6. LBLisa Feldman Barrett3:32

      So-

   7. LFLex Fridman3:33

      So, even at 20, whatever you were, you were already wise enough to know that.

   8. LBLisa Feldman Barrett3:37

      Yeah, a little bit, maybe.

   9. LFLex Fridman3:38

      (laughs)

   10. LBLisa Feldman Barrett3:38

       Yeah. I wouldn't call me wise at that age.

   11. LFLex Fridman3:41

       (laughs)

   12. LBLisa Feldman Barrett3:41

       But anyways, um, not sure that I would say that I'm wise now, but... Um, and so, um, after a l- you know, I was spending probably 16 hours a day in the lab because it was my first year, and as an assistant professor and there's a lot to do, and I was also bitching and moaning to my friends that I, you know, I hadn't had sex in I don't know how many, you know, months.

   13. LFLex Fridman4:06

       (laughs) Yeah.

   14. LBLisa Feldman Barrett4:06

       And it was- I was starting to, you know, become unhappy with my life. And, um, I think at a certain point they just got tired of listening to me bitch and moan-

   15. LFLex Fridman4:15

       (laughs)

   16. LBLisa Feldman Barrett4:16

       ... and said, "Just do something about it then."

   17. LFLex Fridman4:18

       Yeah.

   18. LBLisa Feldman Barrett4:18

       "Like, do ... You know, if you're unhappy." And so, the first thing I did was I- I made friends with a sushi chef in town, and this is a good ... State College, Pennsylvania, in the early '90s was, there was like a pizza shop and a sub shop and a r- actually, a very good bagel shop.

   19. LFLex Fridman4:35

       Mm-hmm.

   20. LBLisa Feldman Barrett4:36

       And one good coffee shop and maybe one nice restaurant. I mean, there was really ... But there was a- the second son of a Japanese sushi chef who was not going to inherit the restaurant, and so he moved to Pennsylvania and was giving sushi lessons. So, I met this guy, the sushi m- the sushi chef, and we decided to throw a sushi party at the coffee shop. So, we basically w- it was- the goal was to invite every eligible bachelor really within like a 20-mile radius.

   21. LFLex Fridman5:04

       Mm-hmm.

   22. LBLisa Feldman Barrett5:05

       We had a totally fun time. I wore an awesome crushed velvet burgundy dress.

   23. LFLex Fridman5:11

       Mm-hmm.

   24. LBLisa Feldman Barrett5:11

       It was a beautiful dress. Um, and I didn't meet any- I met a lot of friend- new friends, but I did not-

   25. LFLex Fridman5:17

       Mm-hmm.

   26. LBLisa Feldman Barrett5:17

       ... meet anybody. So then I thought, "Okay. Well, maybe I'll try the personals ads," which I had never used before in my life.

   27. LFLex Fridman5:23

       Mm-hmm.

   28. LBLisa Feldman Barrett5:23

       And, um, I first tried the paper personals ads.

   29. LFLex Fridman5:29

       Like, in the newspaper?

   30. LBLisa Feldman Barrett5:30

       Like, in the newspaper. That didn't work, and then a friend of mine said, "Oh, you know, there's this thing called NetNews." So, we're going ... This is in like 1992 maybe.
3. 19:54 – 34:32

   Love at first sight

   1. LBLisa Feldman Barrett19:54

   2. LFLex Fridman19:54

      This is an interesting thing, like we're all, what is it? There are several billion of us, and we're kind of roaming this world, and then you kind of stick together. You find, find somebody that just like gets you, and it's interesting to think about. There's probably thousands, if not millions, of people that would, would s- be sticky to you depending on the curvature of your space. But what, what is the... Could you speak to the stickiness, like to the, just the falling in love, like seeing that somebody really gets you, maybe by way of, um, telling... Do you think, do you remember there was a moment when you just realized, "Damn it, I think I'm, uh, like I think that's, this is the guy. I think I'm in love"?

   3. LBLisa Feldman Barrett20:44

      We were having these conversations actually from the, really from the second weekend we were together. So, he flew back the next weekend to stay at college because it was my birthday. It was my 30th birthday, and my friends were throwing me a party. And we went hiking, and we hiked up some mountain, and we were sitting on a cliff over this, you know, overlook and talking to each other. And I was thinking, and I actually said to him, like, "I, I haven't really known you very long, but I feel like I'm falling in love with you, which can't possibly be happening. I must be projecting, but it-"

   4. LFLex Fridman21:11

      (laughs) I must be projecting.

   5. LBLisa Feldman Barrett21:12

      "... but it, but it certainly feels that way, right?"

   6. LFLex Fridman21:14

      Yeah.

   7. LBLisa Feldman Barrett21:14

      "Like, I don't believe in love at first sight, so this can't really be happening, but it sort of feels like it is." And he was like, "I know what you mean." And so, for the first three months or four months, we would say things to each other like, "I feel like I'm in love with you, but, you know, but that can't, th- but things don't really work like that, so..." But, you know, so... And then it became a joke, like, "I feel like I'm in love with you."

   8. LFLex Fridman21:38

      (laughs)

   9. LBLisa Feldman Barrett21:38

      And then eventually, you know, I think, um, but I think that was one moment where we were, we were talking about, I don't know, just, you know, not just all the great aspirations you have or all the things, but also things you don't like about yourself, things that you're worried about, things that you're scared of. And then I think the... That was sort of solidified the relationship. And then there was one weekend where we went to Maine in the winter, which I lo- I mean, I really love the beach always-

   10. LFLex Fridman22:12

       Mm-hmm.

   11. LBLisa Feldman Barrett22:12

       ... but in the winter particularly.

   12. LFLex Fridman22:15

       'Cause it's just beautiful and-

   13. LBLisa Feldman Barrett22:16

       It's beautiful.

   14. LFLex Fridman22:17

       ... and calm and whatever.

   15. LBLisa Feldman Barrett22:18

       Yeah, and I also, I, I do find beauty in starkness sometimes. Like, so there's this grand, majestic scene-

   16. LFLex Fridman22:28

       Mm-hmm.

   17. LBLisa Feldman Barrett22:28

       ... of, you know, this very powerful ocean, and it's all these, like, beautiful blue grays, and it's just, it's just stunning. And so we were sitting on this huge rock in Maine, um, where we'd gone for the weekend. It was freezing cold, and I honestly can't remember what he said or what I said or what... But I, I definitely remember having this feeling of, um, "I absolutely want to stay with this person," like, "I, and I don't know what my life will be like if I'm not with this person." Like, "I need to be with this person."

   18. LFLex Fridman23:02

       Can we, from a scientific and a human perspective, uh, dig into your belief that first, uh, love at first sight is not, is not possible? You don't believe in it? Well, 'cause there is, there... You don't think there's like a magic where you see somebody in the, in the Jack Kerouac way, and you're like, "Wow, that's something. That's, that's-"

   19. LBLisa Feldman Barrett23:23

       Oh, I-

   20. LFLex Fridman23:23

       "... a special little-"

   21. LBLisa Feldman Barrett23:25

       Oh, I definitely-

   22. LFLex Fridman23:26

       "... glimmer of something."

   23. LBLisa Feldman Barrett23:26

       Oh, I definitely think you can connect with someone instant, in, in an instance, and I definitely think you can say, "Oh, there's something there, and I'm really clicking with that person." Romantically, but also just with friends-

   24. LFLex Fridman23:39

       Mm-hmm.

   25. LBLisa Feldman Barrett23:39

       ... it's possible to do that. You recognize a mind that's like yours or that's compatible with yours. There are ways that you feel like you're being understood or that you understand something about this person, or maybe you see something in this person that you find really compelling or intriguing. But I think, you know, your brain is predictive organ, right?

   26. LFLex Fridman24:03

       (laughs)

   27. LBLisa Feldman Barrett24:03

       You're, you're, you're using your past.

   28. LFLex Fridman24:05

       You're projecting. (laughs)

   29. LBLisa Feldman Barrett24:06

       You're using your past to-

   30. LFLex Fridman24:08

       Yeah.
4. 34:32 – 38:32

   Romantic

   1. LBLisa Feldman Barrett34:32

      I mean, if you're exposed to Western culture at all, you are exposed to the, uh, sort of idealized, stereotypic romantic- romantic, you know, uh, exchange, and what- what does it mean to be romantic. And, um, so here's a test. Um, um, I'm seeing how to phrase it. Okay, so not really a test, but this- this tells you something about your own ideas about romance. Uh, for Valentine's Day one year, my husband bought me a six-way plug. Is that romantic or not romantic?

   2. LFLex Fridman35:13

      (laughs) Like, uh, sorry, a six-way plug, that's like an out- like a... (laughs)

   3. LBLisa Feldman Barrett35:18

      Yeah, like to put in an outlet. Is that romantic or not romantic?

   4. LFLex Fridman35:24

      I mean, de- depends the look in his eyes when he does it. I mean, it depends on the conversation that le- led up to that point, depends how much, uh... It's like the music 'cause you have a very... You're- you're both, from the- my experiences with you as a fan, you have both a romantic nature, but you have a very pragmatic. Like, you cut through the bullshit o- of, uh, the- the fuzziness. And there- there's something about a six-way plug that cuts through the bullshit, that connects to the human. Like, he understands who you are.

   5. LBLisa Feldman Barrett35:57

      Exactly.

   6. LFLex Fridman35:58

      Yeah.

   7. LBLisa Feldman Barrett35:59

      Exactly.

   8. LFLex Fridman36:00

      Yeah.

   9. LBLisa Feldman Barrett36:00

      That was the most romantic gift-

   10. LFLex Fridman36:02

       (laughs)

   11. LBLisa Feldman Barrett36:02

       ... he could have given me (laughs) because he knows me so well.

   12. LFLex Fridman36:05

       Yeah.

   13. LBLisa Feldman Barrett36:06

       He has a deep understanding of me, which is that I will sit and suffer and complain-

   14. LFLex Fridman36:11

       Yeah.

   15. LBLisa Feldman Barrett36:12

       ... about the fact that I have to plug and unplug things.

   16. LFLex Fridman36:14

       Yeah.

   17. LBLisa Feldman Barrett36:15

       And I will bitch and moan until the cows come home, but it would never occur to me to go buy a bloody six-way plug, whereas for him-He bought it, he plugged it in, he arranged, he taped up all my wires. He made it, like, really usable. (laughs)

   18. LFLex Fridman36:32

       (laughs)

   19. LBLisa Feldman Barrett36:32

       And for me, that was, uh, that was-

   20. LFLex Fridman36:36

       (laughs)

   21. LBLisa Feldman Barrett36:36

       ... the best present.

   22. LFLex Fridman36:37

       The most romantic thing of-

   23. LBLisa Feldman Barrett36:38

       It was the-

   24. LFLex Fridman36:39

       ... anything that's ever been.

   25. LBLisa Feldman Barrett36:39

       ... most romantic thing because he understood who I was, and he did-

   26. LFLex Fridman36:44

       Yeah.

   27. LBLisa Feldman Barrett36:44

       ... something very... Or, you know, just the casual, like, we moved into a house that went, we went from having a two-car garage to a one-car garage. And I said, "Okay, you know, I'm from Canada. I'm not bothered by snow." Well, I mean, I'm a little bothered by snow, but he's very bothered by snow. So I'm like, "Okay, you can c- park your car in the garage. It's fine." Every day when it snows, he goes out and cleans my car, every day. Like, I never asked him to do it. He just does it because he knows that I'm cutting it really close in the morning, you know-

   28. LFLex Fridman37:16

       Yeah.

   29. LBLisa Feldman Barrett37:16

       ... when we, when we all used to go to work. Um, I have it timed to the second-

   30. LFLex Fridman37:20

       Yeah.
5. 38:32 – 49:15

   Writing process

   1. LBLisa Feldman Barrett38:32

   2. LFLex Fridman38:32

      So, um, maybe one way I could ask before we talk about the details, you're also an- the author of another book, as we talked about, How Emotions Are Made. So it's interesting to talk about the process of writing. You mentioned you were in New York. What have you learned from writing these two books about the actual process of writing? And maybe, I don't know what's the most interesting thing to talk about there, maybe the biggest challenges or the boring, mundane, systematic, like, day-to-day of what worked for you, like hacks, or, or even just about the neuroscience, th- that you've learned through the process of trying to write them.

   3. LBLisa Feldman Barrett39:08

      Here's the thing I learned. If you think that it's gonna take you a year to write your book, it's going to take you three years to write your book.

   4. LFLex Fridman39:15

      (laughs) Yeah.

   5. LBLisa Feldman Barrett39:15

      That's the first thing I learned, is that y-

   6. LFLex Fridman39:18

      Yeah.

   7. LBLisa Feldman Barrett39:18

      ... no matter how organized you are, it's always gonna take way longer (laughs) than what you think, um, in part because, um, very few people make an outline and then just stick to it, you know. The, the, some of the topics really take on a life of their own. And to some extent, you wanna let them g- You wanna let them have their voice, you know. You wanna follow leads until you feel satisfied that you've dealt with the topic, um, uh, appropriately. But I... And that part is actually fun. It's not fun to feel like you're con- constantly behind the eight-ball in terms of time.

   8. LFLex Fridman39:58

      Yeah.

   9. LBLisa Feldman Barrett39:59

      Um, but it is... The exploration and the foraging for information is incredibly fun, for me anyways. I found it really enjoyable. And if I wasn't also running a lab at the same time and trying to keep my family going, uh, you know, it would've been... The whole thing would've just been fun. Um, but I would say the hardest thing about... The most important thing I think I learned is also the hardest thing, and that, uh, for me, which is, um, knowing what to leave out. A really good storyteller knows what to leave out. In, in academic writing, you, you shouldn't leave anything out. You, you, all the details should be there.

   10. LFLex Fridman40:40

       Right.

   11. LBLisa Feldman Barrett40:41

       And, um, and I, you know, I've written or participated in, in writing over 200 papers, um, peer-reviewed papers. So I'm pretty good with detail. Knowing what to leave out, knowing what to leave out and not harming the validity of the story, that is a tricky, tricky thing. It was tricky when I wrote How Emotions Are Made, but that's a standard, um, popular science book, so it's 300-something pages, and then, you know, it has, like, a thousand end notes. And then each of the end notes is attached to a web note, which is also long.

   12. LFLex Fridman41:23

       Mm-hmm.

   13. LBLisa Feldman Barrett41:24

       So I mean, you know, it's, um... A- a- and it start... And I mean, the final draft, I wrote three drafts of that book actually. And the final draft, and then I had to cut by a third. I mean, or, I mean, I, you- you know, it was like 150,000 words or something, and I had to cut it down to, like, 110. So, um, obviously it's, I struggle with what to leave out. You know, brevity is not my strong suit. I'm always telling people that. It's a warning. So that's why this book was a... I do- You know, I'd always been really fascinated with essays. I lo- I love reading essays. And after reading a, a s- a small set of essays by Anne Fadiman, um, called At Large and At Small, which I just love these little essays.

   14. LFLex Fridman42:10

       What's, what's the topic of the- those essays?

   15. LBLisa Feldman Barrett42:12

       They are, they're called, um, Familiar Essays. So they're, the topics are, like, everyday topics, like mail-

   16. LFLex Fridman42:19

       Mm-hmm.

   17. LBLisa Feldman Barrett42:19

       ... um, coffee, chocolate. I mean, just like... And what she does is she weaves her own experience. It's a little bit like these conversations that you're so good at curating, actually, um-... you're weaving together history and philosophy and science, and also personal reflections.

   18. LFLex Fridman42:38

       Mm-hmm.

   19. LBLisa Feldman Barrett42:38

       And a little bit you feel like you're, like eavesdropping on someone's train of thought in a way.

   20. LFLex Fridman42:46

       Mm-hmm.

   21. LBLisa Feldman Barrett42:47

       It- it's really, they're really compelling to me, and-

   22. LFLex Fridman42:51

       Even if it's just, like, a mundane topic?

   23. LBLisa Feldman Barrett42:53

       Yeah, but it's so interesting to, um, learn about, like, all of these little stories in the- in the wrapping of the history of, like, mail.

   24. LFLex Fridman43:07

       Mm-hmm.

   25. LBLisa Feldman Barrett43:08

       Like, that's in- that's really interesting.

   26. LFLex Fridman43:10

       Mm-hmm.

   27. LBLisa Feldman Barrett43:10

       And so, I read these essays and then I wrote to her, a little fan girl email.

   28. LFLex Fridman43:14

       (laughs)

   29. LBLisa Feldman Barrett43:15

       Um, this was, uh, uh, many years ago and, um, and I said, "I l- I- I just loved your- I loved this book, and how did you learn to write essays like this?" And she gave me a reading list of essays that I should read-

   30. LFLex Fridman43:26

       Mm-hmm.
6. 49:15 – 1:03:24

   Evolution of the human brain

   1. LBLisa Feldman Barrett49:15

   2. LFLex Fridman49:15

      Well, if we could dive in some aspects of the book, I would- I would love that. Um, can we talk about... So one of the essays, uh, looks at evolution, and let me ask the big question. Um, did the human brain evolve to think? That's essentially the- the question that you address in the essay. Can you speak to it?

   3. LBLisa Feldman Barrett49:39

      Sure. You know, the- the big caveat here is that we don't really know why brains evolved. The- the big why questions are called teleological questions, and, um, in general, scientists should avoid those questions because we don't know really why. We don't know the why. However, for- for a very long time, the assumption was that evolution worked in a progressive upward scale, that you start off with simple organisms and those organisms get more complex and more complex and more complex. Now obviously, that's true in some, like, really general way, right? That- that, um, life started off as single-cell organisms, and you know, things got more complex. But the idea that, um, that brains evolved in some upward, um, trajectory from simple brains in simple animals to complex brains in complex animals is called a phylogenetic scale.

   4. LFLex Fridman50:39

      Mm-hmm.

   5. LBLisa Feldman Barrett50:39

      Um, and, um, that phylogenetic scale is embedded in a lot of evolutionary thinking, including Darwin's actually. Um, and it's been seriously challenged, I would say, by modern, uh, evolutionary biology. Um, and so, you know, thinking is something that... Rationality is something that humans, at least in the West, really prize, um, as a great, uh, human achievement.

   6. LFLex Fridman51:10

      Mm-hmm.

   7. LBLisa Feldman Barrett51:10

      And so, the idea that the most common evolutionary story is that, you know, brains evolved in, um, like sedimentary rock, um, uh, with, you know, a- a layer for instincts, that's your lizard brain, and a layer on top of that, uh, uh, for emotions, that's your limbic system. Limbic meaning border, so it borders the parts that are for instincts.

   8. LFLex Fridman51:36

      Oh, interesting.

   9. LBLisa Feldman Barrett51:37

      And, um, and then, um, the, uh, neocortex or new cortex where, um, rationality is supposed to live. That's the sort of traditional story.

   10. LFLex Fridman51:48

       It just keeps getting layered on top-

   11. LBLisa Feldman Barrett51:50

       Right.

   12. LFLex Fridman51:50

       ... by evolution.

   13. LBLisa Feldman Barrett51:52

       Right. And so you can think about, you know... I mean, sedimentary rock is the way typically people describe it, but the way I- I sometimes like to think about it is, um, you know, thinking about the cerebral cortex like, uh, icing on an already baked cake.

   14. LFLex Fridman52:06

       (laughs) Yeah.

   15. LBLisa Feldman Barrett52:07

       You know? Um, where, you know, the cake is your inner beast.

   16. LFLex Fridman52:11

       Yeah.

   17. LBLisa Feldman Barrett52:11

       These like boiling, you know, roiling instincts and emotions that have to be contained. And the- the... by the cortex. And the- the... It's just, um... it's a fiction. It's a myth. It- it's a myth that you can trace all the way back to stories about morality, um, in ancient Greece. But what you can do is look at the scientific record and say, "Well, there- there's other- there are other stories that you could tell about brain evolution and- and the- the context in which brains evolved." So, when you look at creatures who don't have brains, and you look at creatures who do, what's the difference? And, um, you can look at, you know, some animals, um... So we call... Scientists call an environment that an animal lives in a niche, their environmental niche. What are the things... What are the parts of the environment that matter to that animal? And, um, so there are some animals whose niche hasn't changed in 400 million years. So they're- they're not... These creatures are modern creatures, but they're living in a niche that hasn't changed much, and so their biology hasn't changed much. And you can kind of verify that by looking at the genes that lurk deep, you know, in- in the molecular structure of cells.

   18. LFLex Fridman53:34

       Mm-hmm.

   19. LBLisa Feldman Barrett53:35

       And so you can, by looking at various animals in their developmental state, meaning not... You don't look at adult animals, you look at embryos of animals and developing animals, you can see... you can piece together a different story, and that story is that brains evolved under the selection pressure of hunting. That in the Cambrian period, hunting emerged on the scene where animals deliberately ate one another. Um, and what... So, you know, before the Cambrian period, the animals didn't really have... Well, they didn't have brains, but they also didn't have senses really, very, very rudimentary senses. So, the animal that I wrote about in Seven and a Half Lessons is called an amphioxus or a lancelet. And, um, little amphioxus has no eyes. It has no ears. It has no nose. It- it- it has no eyes. It has a couple of cells for, um...... uh, detecting light and dark for circadian rhythm purposes, so. And it, it, it d- can't hear. It has a vestibular cell to keep its body upright. Um, it has a very rudimentary sense of touch, and it doesn't really have any internal organs other than this, like, basically stomach. It's like a-

   20. LFLex Fridman55:03

       Mm-hmm.

   21. LBLisa Feldman Barrett55:03

       ... just like a ... It doesn't, it doesn't have an enteric nervous system. It doesn't have, like, a gut that, you know, moves-

   22. LFLex Fridman55:10

       Mm-hmm.

   23. LBLisa Feldman Barrett55:10

       ... like we do. It just has, basically, a tube.

   24. LFLex Fridman55:13

       Yeah.

   25. LBLisa Feldman Barrett55:14

       Um, so it's like-

   26. LFLex Fridman55:14

       A little container.

   27. LBLisa Feldman Barrett55:15

       Like, a little container, yeah. And so ... And really, it doesn't, it doesn't move very much. It can move. It just sort of wriggles. It doesn't have very sophisticated movement. And it's this really sweet little animal.

   28. LFLex Fridman55:27

       (laughs) Yeah.

   29. LBLisa Feldman Barrett55:27

       It sort of wriggles its way to a spot and then plants itself-

   30. LFLex Fridman55:32

       (laughs)
7. 1:03:24 – 1:12:07

   Nature of evil

   1. LBLisa Feldman Barrett1:03:25

   2. LFLex Fridman1:03:25

      I apologize to take this in this direction for a brief moment, but I've been really deep on Stalin and Hitler recently, uh, in terms of reading. And is there something that you think about in terms of, um, the nature of evil from a neuroscience perspective? Is there some lessons that are sort of, um, hopeful about human civilization that, uh, we can find in our brain with regard to the Hitlers of the world? Do you, do you think about the nature of evil?

   3. LBLisa Feldman Barrett1:04:05

      Yeah, I do. I don't know that what I have to say is so useful from a... I don't know that I can say as a neuroscientist, "Well, here are... Here's a study-"

   4. LFLex Fridman1:04:16

      Right.

   5. LBLisa Feldman Barrett1:04:16

      ... that, you know..." What I... So I, I sort of have to take off my lab coat, right? And now, I'm gonna now conjecture as a human who just also... who has opinions, but who also maybe has some knowledge about neuroscience. But I'm not speaking as a neuroscientist when I say this 'cause I don't think neuroscientists know enough really to be able to say, but I guess I... The kinds of things I think about are, um, what... So I, I have always thought w- even before I, I knew anything about neuroscience, um, I've always thought that, um... I don't think anybody could become Hitler, but I think the majority of people can be... can do... are capable of doing very bad things. Um, it's just the question is really how much encouragement does it take from the environment to get them to do something bad?

   6. LFLex Fridman1:05:11

      That's what I... kind of when I look at the life of Hitler, it seems like there's so many places where-

   7. LBLisa Feldman Barrett1:05:19

      Something could have intervened.

   8. LFLex Fridman1:05:21

      ... inter- no, it could change completely the person. I mean, there's like-

   9. LBLisa Feldman Barrett1:05:24

      Yeah.

   10. LFLex Fridman1:05:24

       ... the caricature, like the obvious places where he was an artist, and if he wasn't rejected as an artist, he was a reasonably good artist. So that, that could have changed, but just his entire, like where he went in Vienna and all these kinds of things, like, like little interactions could have changed. And there's probably millions of other, uh, people who are, uh, capable, who the environment may be able to mold in the same way it did this particular person to create, uh, this particular kind of charismatic leader in this particular moment of time.

   11. LBLisa Feldman Barrett1:05:57

       Absolutely. And I guess the way I would... the way that I would say it, I w- I would agree 100%, and I guess the way that I would say it is like this. In the West, we have a way of reasoning, um, about causation which focuses on single simple causes for things, you know. There's a, uh, there's an essence to Hitler. There's an essence to his character. He was born with that essence or it was forged very, very early in his life, and that explains the, um, the landscape of his... the horrible landscape of his behavior. But there's another way to think about it, a way that actually is much more consistent with what we know about biology, how biology works, um, in the physical world. And that is that most things are complex, not as in, "Wow, this is really complex and hard," but complex as in complexity, that is more than the sum of their parts. And that most phenomena have many, many-... weak, nonlinear interacting causes.

   12. LFLex Fridman1:07:08

       Mm-hmm.

   13. LBLisa Feldman Barrett1:07:08

       And so little things that we might not even be aware of can shift someone's developmental trajectory from this to that, and that's enough to take it on a whole set of other paths that, uh, you know, that... And that these things are happening all the time. So it's not random, and it's not really... It's not deterministic in the sense that like everything you do determines your outcome.

   14. LFLex Fridman1:07:35

       Mm-hmm.

   15. LBLisa Feldman Barrett1:07:36

       But it's a little more like, um, you know, you're nudging someone from one set of possibilities to another set of possibilities. And I... But I think the, the thing is... the thing that I find optimistic is that the, the o- o- other side of that coin is also true, right? So look at all the people who risk their lives to help people they didn't even know. I mean, I just watched Borat, the new Borat movie.

   16. LFLex Fridman1:08:10

       Yeah.

   17. LBLisa Feldman Barrett1:08:10

       And-

   18. LFLex Fridman1:08:11

       (laughs)

   19. LBLisa Feldman Barrett1:08:11

       ... the thing that I came away with, but, you know? The thing I came away with was, look at how, like, generous people were in that... Oh, 'cause he's making... There are a lot of people he makes fun of, and that's fine. But think about, like, those two guys, those, those-

   20. LFLex Fridman1:08:27

       The, the, the Trump supporter guys of Southern...

   21. LBLisa Feldman Barrett1:08:28

       The Trump supporter guys. Those guys-

   22. LFLex Fridman1:08:30

       That was cool. That was ki- There was kindness in them, right?

   23. LBLisa Feldman Barrett1:08:33

       They took a complete stranger in a pandemic-

   24. LFLex Fridman1:08:38

       Yeah.

   25. LBLisa Feldman Barrett1:08:38

       ... into their house. Who does that?

   26. LFLex Fridman1:08:42

       Yeah.

   27. LBLisa Feldman Barrett1:08:43

       Like, that's a really nice thing. Or there's one scene... I mean, I don't wanna s- spoil it for people who haven't seen it, but-

   28. LFLex Fridman1:08:48

       Yeah, spoiler alert.

   29. LBLisa Feldman Barrett1:08:49

       But there's, you know, there's one scene where he goes in, he dresses up as a Jew.

   30. LFLex Fridman1:08:55

       (laughs)
8. 1:12:07 – 1:16:43

   Love is an evolutionary advantage

   1. LFLex Fridman1:12:07

      But I tend to believe that, uh, there's a much stronger, um... I don't, I don't like to talk about evolutionary advantages, but it seems like it makes sense for love to be a more powerful c- uh, emergent phenomena of our collective intelligence versus hate and evil and destruction. Because s- from a survival, from a niche perspective, it seems to be, uh... Like, for, for... In my own life, in my thinking about the intuition about the way humans work together to solve problems, it seems that love is a very useful tool.

   2. LBLisa Feldman Barrett1:12:47

      I definitely agree with you, but I think the caveat here is that, um, you know, humans... The research suggests that humans are, are capable of great acts of kindness and great acts of generosity to people in their in-group.

   3. LFLex Fridman1:13:07

      Right.

   4. LBLisa Feldman Barrett1:13:09

      And-

   5. LFLex Fridman1:13:09

      So we're also tribal.

   6. LBLisa Feldman Barrett1:13:11

      Yeah. I mean, that's the k- that's the kitschy way to say it, we're tribes, we're tribal.

   7. LFLex Fridman1:13:16

      Yeah.

   8. LBLisa Feldman Barrett1:13:16

      Yeah. So that's the kitschy way to say it. Uh, what I would say is that, you know, there are a lot of features that you can use to describe yourself. You v- you don't have one identity, you don't have one self, you have many selves, you have many identities. Um, sometimes you're a man, sometimes you're a scientist, sometimes you're a ... Or do you have a brother or a sister?

   9. LFLex Fridman1:13:40

      Yeah, brother.

   10. LBLisa Feldman Barrett1:13:40

       So sometimes you're a brother. You know, you, you, sometimes you're a friend. You-

   11. LFLex Fridman1:13:45

       Because you're a human so you can keep zooming out.

   12. LBLisa Feldman Barrett1:13:47

       Yes, exac-

   13. LFLex Fridman1:13:48

       Living organism on Earth.

   14. LBLisa Feldman Barrett1:13:49

       Yes, exactly. That's exactly, that's exactly right. And so, um, there are, there are some people who ... There is research which suggests that, um, there are some people who will tell you, "I think it's appropriate and better to help ... I should help my family more than I should help my neighbors, and I should help my neighbors more than I should help the average stranger. And I should help, um, you know, the average stranger in my country more than I should help somebody outside my country. And I should help humans more than I should help, you know, other animals."

   15. LFLex Fridman1:14:26

       Yes.

   16. LBLisa Feldman Barrett1:14:26

       "And I should ..." Right? So there's a clear hierarchy of helping. And there are other people who, um, you know, they are m- their niche is much more inclusive, right?

   17. LFLex Fridman1:14:37

       Mm-hmm.

   18. LBLisa Feldman Barrett1:14:37

       And that they're f- humans first.

   19. LFLex Fridman1:14:40

       Yes.

   20. LBLisa Feldman Barrett1:14:40

       Right? Or, or creatures of the Earth first, let's say.

   21. LFLex Fridman1:14:44

       Yep.

   22. LBLisa Feldman Barrett1:14:44

       Um, and I, I don't think we know how flexible those attitudes are, because th- I don't think the research really tells us that.

   23. LFLex Fridman1:14:53

       Mm-hmm.

   24. LBLisa Feldman Barrett1:14:54

       But in any case, there are ... You know, and there are beliefs, people also have beliefs about ... There's this really interesting research in, um, really in anthropology, um, that looks at what are cultures particularly afraid of? Like, what ... The people in a particular culture are organizing their social systems to prevent certain types of problems, so what are the problems that they're worried about?

   25. LFLex Fridman1:15:21

       Mm-hmm.

   26. LBLisa Feldman Barrett1:15:22

       And, and so there are some cultures that are much more hierarchical, and some cultures that are, you know, much more egalitarian. There are some cultures that, you know, in the debate of, like, getting along versus getting ahead, there are some cultures that really prioritize the individual over the group, and there are other cultures that really prioritize the group over the individual. You know, it's not like one of these is right and one of these is wrong. It's that, you know, different combinations of these features are different solutions that humans have come up with for, for living in groups, which is a major adaptive advantage of our species. Um, and it's not the case that one of these is better and one of these is worse. Although as a person, of course I have opinions about that. And as a person-

   27. LFLex Fridman1:16:08

       Right.

   28. LBLisa Feldman Barrett1:16:09

       ... I, I can say I would very much prefer certain ... I have certain beliefs, and I-

   29. LFLex Fridman1:16:14

       Yeah.

   30. LBLisa Feldman Barrett1:16:14

       ... really want everyone in the world to live by those beliefs, you know? But as a scientist I know that it's not really the case that for the species-
9. 1:16:43 – 1:22:24

   Variation in species

   1. LBLisa Feldman Barrett1:16:43

      are worse, right? But when, when anthropologists or when neuroscientists or biologists are talking, they're u- not usually talking about the lives of individual people. They're talking about, you know, the species, what's better for the species, the survivability of the species. And what's better for the survivability of the species is variation-

   2. LFLex Fridman1:17:01

      Hmm. Yeah.

   3. LBLisa Feldman Barrett1:17:02

      ... that we have lots of cultures with lots of different solutions, because if the environment were to change drastically, um, some, uh, some of those solutions will work better than others. And you can see that happening with COVID.

   4. LFLex Fridman1:17:21

      Right, so s- some people might be more susceptible to this, this virus than others, and so v- variation is very useful. Say COVID was much, much more destructive than it is, and like, I don't know, 20% of the population w- was d- died, uh, you know, that's, it's good to have variability because then at least some percent will survive.

   5. LBLisa Feldman Barrett1:17:42

      Yeah. I mean, the, the, you know, the way that I used to describe it was, you know, um, using, uh, you know those movies like The War of the Worlds or, um-

   6. LFLex Fridman1:17:53

      Yeah.

   7. LBLisa Feldman Barrett1:17:54

      ... Pacific Rim, you know, where, like, aliens come down from outer space, and they, you know, wanna kill humans, and so all the humans band together as a species, like w- and they all, like all the, you know, little squabbling from countries and whatever, all g- you know, goes away, and everyone is just one big, you know ... Well, uh, that, you know, that doesn't happen.

   8. LFLex Fridman1:18:19

      Mm-hmm.

   9. LBLisa Feldman Barrett1:18:19

      I mean, 'cause COVID i- you know, the vi- a virus, uh, uh, uh, like co- like COVID-19 is like w- a, a, a creature from outer space.

   10. LFLex Fridman1:18:29

       Mm-hmm.

   11. LBLisa Feldman Barrett1:18:30

       And that's not what you see happening. What you do see happening ... It is true that some people ... I mean, we could use this as an example of essentialism also. So just to say, like, exposure to the virus does not mean that you will become infected with a disease. S- so, I mean, in controlled studies, one of which was actually a coronavirus, not COVID, but an r- this was, these are studies from 10-

   12. LFLex Fridman1:18:53

       Mm-hmm.

   13. LBLisa Feldman Barrett1:18:54

       ... s- or so years ago, you know, only somewhere between 20 and 40% of people, uh, were, developed respiratory illness when a virus was placed in their nose.

   14. LFLex Fridman1:19:04

       Yeah.

   15. LBLisa Feldman Barrett1:19:05

       Um, and so-

   16. LFLex Fridman1:19:07

       And then there's a dose question, all those facets.

   17. LBLisa Feldman Barrett1:19:09

       Well, not in these studies actually. So in these studies the dose was consistent across all people.

   18. LFLex Fridman1:19:14

       Mm-hmm.

   19. LBLisa Feldman Barrett1:19:15

       Um, and everything, you know, they were sequestered in hotel rooms, and what they ate was, you know, um, measured out by scientists and so on. And so when you hold dose, I mean, the dose issue is a real issue in the real world, but, um, in these studies, that was controlled. Um, and only somewhere between twen- depending on the study, between 20 and 40% of people became infected with a disease. So exposure to a virus doesn't mean de facto that y- you will, um, develop an illness. You will be a carrier and you will spread the virus to other people-

   20. LFLex Fridman1:19:50

       Mm-hmm.

   21. LBLisa Feldman Barrett1:19:50

       ... but you yourself may not, uh, your immune system may be, um, in a state that, um, you, you can make enough antibodies to, um, not, uh, not show symptoms, n- not develop symptoms. Um, and so, um, of course what this means is, again, is that, you know, like if, if I asked you, "Do you think, you know, a virus is the cause of illn- of a, of a common cold," or, you know, most people, if I asked this question, I can tell you 'cause I, I, I ask this question, so do you think a virus is the cause-

   22. LFLex Fridman1:20:24

       Mm-hmm.

   23. LBLisa Feldman Barrett1:20:24

       ... of a cold? Most people would say, "Yes, I think it is." And then I say, "Yeah, well only 20 to 40% of people develop respiratory illness in-"

   24. LFLex Fridman1:20:32

       (laughs) Yeah.

   25. LBLisa Feldman Barrett1:20:33

       "... exposure to a virus." So clearly, it is a necessary cause, but it's not a sufficient cause.

   26. LFLex Fridman1:20:39

       Yeah.

   27. LBLisa Feldman Barrett1:20:39

       And there are other causes. Again, so not simple single causes for things, right?

   28. LFLex Fridman1:20:44

       Mm-hmm.

   29. LBLisa Feldman Barrett1:20:44

       Multiple interacting influences. So it i- it is true that individuals vary in their susceptibility to illness upon exposure, but different cultures have different sets of norms and practices that allow, that will slow or, or speed the spread. And that's the, that's the point that I was actually trying to make here, that, um, that f- you know, when the environment changes, that is, there's a, a mutation of a virus that b- is incredibly infectious, some cultures will succumb, people in some cultures will succumb faster because of the particular norms and practices that, that they've developed in their-

   30. LFLex Fridman1:21:35

       Mm-hmm.
10. 1:22:24 – 1:40:03

    Does evolution have a direction?

    1. LFLex Fridman1:22:24

       Just to linger a little bit longer, we started this part of the conversation talking about, you know, did humans evolve to think, did the human brain evolve to think, implying is there like a progress to the thing that's always improving?

    2. LBLisa Feldman Barrett1:22:41

       (laughs) That's right. We never... Yeah, and so the answer is no.

    3. LFLex Fridman1:22:46

       But let me sort of push back. But so y- uh, your intuition is very strong here, not y- your intuition, the way you described this. But is it possible there's a direction to this evolution? Like, do you think of this evolution as having a direction, like it's like walking along a certain path towards something? 'Cause we, you know, uh, what is it? (laughs) Uh, did Elon, uh, Musk said like, uh, this, the Earth got bombarded with photons and then all of a sudden like a Tesla was launched into space or whatever, rockets started coming. Like, is there a sense in which even though in the, like within the system, the evolution seems to be this massive variation, we're kind of trying to find our niches and so on, but do you think there, ultimately, when you zoom out, there is a direction that's strong that does tend towards, um, greater complexity and intelligence?

    4. LBLisa Feldman Barrett1:23:49

       No.

    5. LFLex Fridman1:23:50

       (laughs)

    6. LBLisa Feldman Barrett1:23:51

       So I mean, and I, and again-

    7. LFLex Fridman1:23:52

       Yeah.

    8. LBLisa Feldman Barrett1:23:52

       ... what I would say is I'm really, I'm really just echoing people who are much smarter than I am about this. I-

    9. LFLex Fridman1:24:00

       But see, you're saying smarter. I thought it doesn't, there's no, I thought there's no smarter.

    10. LBLisa Feldman Barrett1:24:05

        No, I didn't say there's no smarter. I said-

    11. LFLex Fridman1:24:06

        Yeah.

    12. LBLisa Feldman Barrett1:24:06

        ... there's no direction.

    13. LFLex Fridman1:24:07

        Okay.

    14. LBLisa Feldman Barrett1:24:08

        So I think the thing to say or, or what I understand to be the case is that, um, there's variation. It's not unbounded variation.

    15. LFLex Fridman1:24:17

        Mm-hmm.

    16. LBLisa Feldman Barrett1:24:17

        And there are selectors. There are, there are, there are pressures that will select. And so not anything is possible because we live on a planet that has certain physical realities to it, right?

    17. LFLex Fridman1:24:30

        Mm-hmm.

    18. LBLisa Feldman Barrett1:24:30

        Um, and but those physical realities are what constrain the possibilities. Um, the physical realities of our genes and the physical realities of our corporeal bodies and the physical realities of, um, uh, you know, the, of life on, on this planet. So w- what I would say is that, um, there's no direction, um, but, uh, there is n- it's not infinite possibility because y- we live on a particular planet that has particular statistical regularities in it, and some things will never happen. And so tho- all of those things are, are interacting with, um...... uh, with our genes and so on, and our, you know, the physical nature of our bodies to make some things more possible and some things less possible. Look-

    19. LFLex Fridman1:25:27

        Right, yeah.

    20. LBLisa Feldman Barrett1:25:27

        ... I mean, humans have very complex brains, but birds have complex brains and so do, uh, you know, um, so do, uh, octopuses have very complex brains. And all three sets of, all three of those brains are- are- are somewhat different from one another. You know, a bird- birds, some birds have very complex brains. Some even have rudimentary language, they have no cerebral cortex. I mean, they, admittedly, they have, this is, um, now lesson two, right? They have, is it lesson two or lesson one? Let me think. No, this is lesson one. They have, um, uh, they have s- the same neurons. The same neurons that- that in a human become the cerebral cortex, birds have those neurons. They just don't form themselves into a cerebral cortex.

    21. LFLex Fridman1:26:13

        Mm-hmm.

    22. LBLisa Feldman Barrett1:26:13

        And I mean, crows, for example, are very sophisticated animals. They can do a lot of the things that humans can do. In fact, all of the things that humans do that are very special, that seem very special, there's at least one other animal on the planet that can do those things too. What's special about the human brain is that we put them all together, so we learn from one another. We don't have to experience everything ourselves. We can watch another a- animal or another human learn- experience something and we can learn from that. Well, there are many other animals who can learn by copying.

Episode duration: 2:15:37