Magatte Wade: Africa, Capitalism, Communism, and the Future of Humanity | Lex Fridman Podcast #311

Magatte Wade 0:00 You have to have free markets in order to build prosperity, and prosperity means economic power. If you have economic power, no one messes with you. Or if they're going to do it, they're going to have to think twice, and when they do, they're going to have to pay consequences.

Lex Fridman 0:20 The following is a conversation with Magatte Wade, an entrepreneur who's passionate about creating positive change in Africa through economic empowerment. This is the Lex Fridman podcast. To support it, please check out our sponsors in the description and now, dear friends, here's Magatte Wade.

Lex Fridman 0:40 You were born in Senegal.

Magatte Wade 0:42 Mm-hmm.

Lex Fridman 0:43 You have lived and traveled across the world, so let me ask you, what is the soul of Senegal? Like its people, its culture, its history. Can you, can you try to sneak up on telling us, what is the spirit of its people?

Magatte Wade 0:58 Teranga. Teranga. Teranga, it's a Wolof word. Wolof is a main indigenous language of Senegal, and it means hospitality. That is what us, the people of Senegal, are known for.

Lex Fridman 1:11 Mm-hmm.

Magatte Wade 1:11 Um, and it, uh, transpires in everything that we do, um, everything that we say. It's a place where, I guess, with hospitality goes this concept of warmth. So we are very... We are a very warm people. Uh, so in a nutshell, that's us. That's, that's us. The place where you come and everybody will just embrace you, um, make you feel very comfortable, make you look like... Feel like you're the only person in the world and that we've been waiting for you our whole life, right?

Lex Fridman 1:37 (laughs)

Magatte Wade 1:37 So, so that's my country. And my people.

Lex Fridman 1:40 So that's, for people in Senegal, people in Africa, or also people across the world, weird strangers from all walks of life?

Magatte Wade 1:47 Mm-hmm.

Lex Fridman 1:47 So hospitality towards everyone?

Magatte Wade 1:49 Yes, for everyone. For everyone. Especially towards the foreigner, because it's very... It's very, um, ingrained in us, this understanding that especially the foreigner... The foreigner is called foreigner because the foreigner's coming from somewhere else. So if someone has taken the time and the energy, whether, uh, in a forced manner or because it's a choice to travel so far to come to a place that's not theirs to start with. That's why they're foreigners, again. Um, then it is your duty to welcome them, to be uber welcome, welcoming to them.

Lex Fridman 2:23 So there's not a fear of the foreigner. There's not a suspicion of the foreigner.

Magatte Wade 2:26 No. No. No. And I think, um, this goes with the other way around. Maybe it has to do with, um, just... You know, when you feel good about yourself, when you're very grounded yourself, it's very easy to open yourself to others. And, um, I'm wondering if that's not, you know, the other side of the equation in a way. So no, we don't have a fear, uh, towards a foreigner. That's just not the case.

Lex Fridman 2:50 So when you have a pride, uh, of your culture, pride of your own people, like it's easier to, sort of embrace. I mean, it's interesting how these kind of cultures emerge because, um, you know, the Slavic countries, they're sometimes colder.

Magatte Wade 3:04 Mm-hmm.

Lex Fridman 3:05 They're, they're slower to trust others.

Magatte Wade 3:07 Mm-hmm.

Lex Fridman 3:07 Uh, we're now here in Austin, Texas. One of the reasons I fell in love with this place when I showed up is there's that same hospitality.

Magatte Wade 3:13 Right.

Lex Fridman 3:13 As compared to other cities I've lived in.

Magatte Wade 3:16 Mm-hmm.

Lex Fridman 3:17 Sort of Boston, Philadelphia, San Francisco. There's, um, there's a hesitation to open up, to be fragile, to, to be caring before understanding what the sort of... What I can gain from you kind of calculation. It's really interesting and I wonder what... How those kinds of dynamics emerge because there's certainly parts of the world-

Magatte Wade 3:41 Mm-hmm.

Lex Fridman 3:41 ... like Austin is one of them-

Magatte Wade 3:43 Mm-hmm.

Lex Fridman 3:43 ... where you just feel the kindness, just radiate without knowing.

Magatte Wade 3:46 Mm-hmm.

Lex Fridman 3:46 Kindness from strangers.

Magatte Wade 3:48 Mm-hmm. You know, um, if I were to advance one thing, and I had the same experience, um, after having lived in San Francisco first, then we went to New York, then we came to Austin. When we came to Austin, I felt... It took me a while to put my finger on it. But what I found in Austin, people just hang. People-

Lex Fridman 4:11 (laughs)

Magatte Wade 4:11 (laughs) Right? They're real.

Lex Fridman 4:12 Yeah. Yeah.

Magatte Wade 4:13 They're real.

Lex Fridman 4:13 Yeah.

Magatte Wade 4:13 Unlike what you were saying, I feel like in these other places, um, people are... It's a destination for people who want to come and perform.

Lex Fridman 4:21 Yeah.

Magatte Wade 4:21 I think, um, maybe the early San Francisco people, it was different for them.

Lex Fridman 4:26 Okay.

Magatte Wade 4:26 Um, but later, as prosperity starts to come in and success comes in, then you attract a different breed.

Lex Fridman 4:33 Yeah.

Magatte Wade 4:34 At first, we're the people who made it, who made this place be what it is, and then it attracts all the bling followers and the bling-attracted people.

Lex Fridman 4:43 Yeah.

Magatte Wade 4:43 And when those people show up, it's time for all of us to get out. And that's one of my worries about Austin too. And I guess I'm one of... I count myself in it, but, you know, because we're also new arrivees. Um, always been few years now. But, um, how are we going to protect this place?

Lex Fridman 4:59 Yeah. Yeah, these, uh, you know, in the best possible version of the Austin history, this is the early days of Silicon Valley in Austin. And so you get a chance to build on top of this culture that's already been here, of the weirdos, the artists, uh, the sort of... The characters, but also the general kindness and love that just permeates the whole place. Build on top of that entrepreneurial spirit. So like tech companies, new startups, all that kind of stuff.

Magatte Wade 5:31 Mm-hmm.

Lex Fridman 5:31 And then you get a chance to build totally new ideas, totally revolutionary ideas, and make them a reality.

Magatte Wade 5:38 Mm-hmm.

Lex Fridman 5:38 And dream big and build it here.

Magatte Wade 5:40 Mm-hmm.

Lex Fridman 5:40 I think Elon represents that with the, all the, all the people that kind of tried to, um-

Magatte Wade 5:45 Mm-hmm.

Lex Fridman 5:47 ... uh, do the cutting-edge stuff they're doing at Tesla and SpaceX. But there's a bunch of other companies that are just like coming up. I get to talk to a bunch of tech people.

Magatte Wade 5:56 For sure.

Lex Fridman 5:56 And they're just incredible. Versus San Francisco, there's, um...... there's a cynicism a bit, and also some of the interaction with strangers. There's always a bit of a calculation, like, "How good is this going to be for my career?"

Magatte Wade 6:11 Or how can, yeah.

Lex Fridman 6:12 Yeah.

Magatte Wade 6:12 How can, um, hanging out with this person can advance me? You know, you go to a party-

Lex Fridman 6:15 Yeah.

Magatte Wade 6:15 ... you're seizing, they're seizing at, they're seizing up.

Lex Fridman 6:18 Yeah.

Magatte Wade 6:18 It's like, "I'm not going to talk to so-and-so because that's not going to advance me. Who's going to advance me next?" And so, this is what I would not want to see here in Austin, and I think maybe there's one way to try to... I really would like to see Austin not go the way San Francisco did and other towns before that did.

Lex Fridman 6:34 I like how you pronounce San Francisco with a French accent. I really love that.

Magatte Wade 6:37 San Francisco? (laughs)

Lex Fridman 6:38 (laughs) It's great.

Magatte Wade 6:39 Thank you.

Lex Fridman 6:39 That- that's the one word you go with a French accent.

Magatte Wade 6:42 You have to.

Lex Fridman 6:42 It sounds beautiful.

Magatte Wade 6:43 You have to imitate me.

Lex Fridman 6:43 San Francisco.

Magatte Wade 6:44 San Francisco.

Lex Fridman 6:45 (laughs)

Magatte Wade 6:45 But, uh, you know, um, (laughs) so, so now that you find that cute, you're going to have to forgive me when I mess up my English because English is not my first language, so I always try to make sure people know that. Um, but you know, Lex, this is why I am very interested in what some folks here are working on, and I'm just going to be very selfish here because I want to help her with what she's doing. It's someone like, um, you know, Nicole Notzek and her project, you know, with, uh, the housing project that they have right now, making sure that Austin remains a town that's affordable for people of all walks of lifes. If we can accomplish making sure that all walks of lifes, doesn't matter how little or big you're making money-wise, that you can stay in this town so the diversity at that level can remain, then I think Austin stands a chance to really show the world how to do things differently. And what I love about, about, you know, her initiative is just how they're really trying, um, you know, to, to again work on keeping affordability down for, for most people. I think it's important to... Because it seems like it matters to you, I know that it matters to me, I absolutely would not want to see, um, Austin go the way that San Francisco did.

Lex Fridman 7:56 Mm-hmm.

Magatte Wade 7:56 And I think the key to that is making su- sure that true diversity, not like the fluff, fluff, crap diversity we're hearing over there. And that's another thing, by the way, because San Francisco likes to pride itself in, "Oh, you know, we are so into diversity." But I'm like, if diversity for you means, um, gender, difference of gender, uh, skin color-

Lex Fridman 8:15 Yeah.

Magatte Wade 8:15 ... you know, maybe the different accents we have and you think, "Check, check, check, check, check," I'm like, "Uh, it's not enough. Can we also add diversity of thoughts?" And that's the other problem I have with that place, you know?

Lex Fridman 8:26 Yeah.

Magatte Wade 8:27 And I know some folks who are scared of saying much around people. That's also another thing. So not only they're sizing you up, but everybody's also... There is this, uh, invisible, this invisible, um... How should I say this? There's this invisible agreement that they all seem to have to stay on script.

Lex Fridman 8:46 (laughs) Yeah, there's a feeling like you're following a certain kind of script-

Magatte Wade 8:49 Exactly.

Lex Fridman 8:49 ... that's very kind of shallow, and there is a bit of a categorization going on. Which category do you belong to? And let's put this into a simple math equation. How, uh, what comes out, as opposed to just the free, open, uh, embrace of people, the weirdos, the characters, the interesting, the full, deep sense of diversity.

Magatte Wade 9:09 Exactly.

Lex Fridman 9:09 Uh, not just ideas but backgrounds and, uh, rich and poor, uh, like-

Magatte Wade 9:16 Artists, engineers, name it.

Lex Fridman 9:17 High school dropouts, PhDs-

Magatte Wade 9:19 Yes.

Lex Fridman 9:19 ... all of this. Yeah.

Magatte Wade 9:21 Yes, yes.

Lex Fridman 9:21 Yeah.

Magatte Wade 9:22 That's what makes for a rich society that's going to get ahead.

Lex Fridman 9:25 I'm glad you mentioned Nicole's efforts. I know she really is passionate about, um... I, I don't, I don't know how complicated that work is, because there's probably a big force trying to, um, increase how much it costs to live in Austin.

Magatte Wade 9:42 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 9:43 I don't know how you resist that. I, when, whenever I go to New York City, just the fact that there's a giant park in the middle of it, uh, I wonder, like, "How did they pull this off?" This is amazing. (laughs)

Magatte Wade 9:54 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 9:54 It's, it's like to resist the force of the increasing price of the land and still to protect this idea of having, um, having a park.

Magatte Wade 10:04 Mm-hmm.

Lex Fridman 10:05 And then in the same way, protecting the ability for people from all walks of life to live in the center of the city, to live around the city, to, uh, t- chase a dream when they don't got any money in their pocket.

Magatte Wade 10:17 Absolutely.

Lex Fridman 10:18 I don't know how you do that, and it's p- partly political probably, uh, regulation, all that kind of stuff.

Magatte Wade 10:23 It's, a lot of it has to do with regulations. Um, and this is where her and I also very much, um, see eye to eye in terms of, um, you know, the free markets and also prosperity building, because it's always the same problems every... Most of the time, most places. Here, what you have is some people, in the name of, "We gotta stand for..." And I don't like to use this word, but maybe you help me find a better one, um, but at least that's a, a word that people can understand. We gotta stand for the less, lesser fortunate among us. Some people would like call them, maybe oftentimes use the word maybe the underdogs, whatever it is. I will just say maybe the lesser fortunate among us, right? Um, in the name of standing up for them, you're promoting policies that are actually going to backfire and where they end up being the first ones to suffer from it. So let's take this whole housing issue that Nicole and her team are working on. Um, we find that oftentimes the cost... At the end of the day, it's the good old supply and demand equation. If you're going to make it so hard that the supply l- uh, level of housing remains below a certain threshold, remains lower than the demand of people who need especially affordable housing, uh, housing altogether, what's going to happen is scarcity, prices go up, and who gets kicked out first? The lesser fortunate among us. And so, but, but I find that oftentimes people, in the name of "We care," don't engage their mind, and a friend of mine said th- this, and he said it so well, he said, "Having heart for the poor..."... that's easy. Having a mind for the poor, that's the challenge. And oftentimes, it's, we all have a heart for the poor. But when it comes then to, then what do we do to have a real impact on making sure they, people get a chance at, you know, going up, then that's where everything starts falling apart. And then you have people who, you know, then they start pushing for policies, housing policies, making it super hard for you to even renovate or add one more story to your home, or anything like that. By doing that, you are messing up with the supply, with the supply, uh, with the supply, um, the supply of housing, and therefore, the- the people who can't afford, you know, peop- people get priced out of a market. And so what people like Nicole are doing, are going back to where all of this is taking place and they're going back to the regulation side. And just like, you know, I'm sure we'll talk about it here, but people wonder today, why is Africa the poorest region in the world? We go back to the same culprit, bad laws (laughs) -

Lex Fridman 13:01 Mm-hmm.

Magatte Wade 13:02 ... and tons of, um, senseless regulations. If you make it so hard that, in Berkeley, for someone to build one more story to their home, which means maybe one more unit that could be rented out to someone, and if many more people do that and you have a much bigger supply, which means the prices will go down, which means more people have access. Among, and among them, especially the less fortunate among us, then we're starting to see a winning proposal, aren't we? But instead, if you go the other way around, then all of a sudden you're pricing them out of a market. Same thing was done with us. So oftentimes, when I see a prob- problems of this nature, you can betcha that regulations and senseless laws are the heart of it, and that's what they're tackling. It's not popular, it's not fun, and people tend to not even understand where you're coming from, but this is a problem we have with people not understanding economic, Econ 101.

Lex Fridman 13:48 Well, so it's the regulation and the laws and the system that props them up and increases the span of those laws, and we'll talk about that, the fascinating way those kinds of things develop, when it works, when it doesn't.

Magatte Wade 13:59 Mm-hmm.

Lex Fridman 13:59 Let me sort of step back and ask you a question about Africa.

Magatte Wade 14:03 Mm-hmm.

Lex Fridman 14:03 In the West, in many places in the world, Africa is almost, uh, talked about like it's one country.

Magatte Wade 14:10 (laughs)

Lex Fridman 14:10 Like it's one place.

Magatte Wade 14:11 Mm-hmm.

Lex Fridman 14:12 So in what ways is Africa one community, and in what ways is it many, many, many communities, just from your perspective of, from, in Senegal and- and beyond?

Magatte Wade 14:24 Right. So at the most basic of, um, what makes us one goes back to even what makes you African. You are African. I'm African. We're one big family. It's, Africa is very much, at the end of the day, the- the- the- the foundation and the birth of, um, you know, the human race. So, and from that standpoint, at the most basic level, uh, we're all Africans.

Lex Fridman 14:48 Where this whole thing started.

Magatte Wade 14:49 Exactly.

Lex Fridman 14:50 (laughs)

Magatte Wade 14:50 Exactly. Where this whole thing started.

Lex Fridman 14:53 (laughs)

Magatte Wade 14:53 And how, at some point, um, humanity was hanging by its fingernails. Only 2,000 of us were left on this earth, and eventually we started, you know, we went for survival. And that's how we started to spread around, and some going up north, some going this way, that way. And as you're traveling to different places, then features start to change to adapt to where you are, right? So hair gets lighter for some people, eyes get different shape for others to- to- to adjust-

Lex Fridman 15:19 Mm-hmm.

Magatte Wade 15:19 ... to a new natural habitat. You know, the genomics program I think, um, of, at, um, the, uh, National Geographic did that so well, for people who are interested in going back to that work with Spencer Wells and such. But, um, yeah, so at the very basic, most basic level, that's- that's what unites us all, first of all. And then I would say that the continent, especially here, I will group it into Black Africa, you know, Black Africa, um, (sighs) unfortunately, our common stories, you know, of, um, having gone through this terrible, horrible period of, um, around the same time, the whole continent being, you know, enslaved and colonized. So that, in a way, forms... Not that we were ever be- the first people or only people ever, you know, enslaved in this world. As a matter of fact, I mean, the word slaves comes from escla-, you know, esclave, slave, Slavs, le slave, right? From the Eastern block. So the first slaves were actually people looking more like you than looking like me, right?

Lex Fridman 16:18 (laughs) Yeah.

Magatte Wade 16:19 So- so... But we don't necessarily remember all of that because in our human psyche, um, the closest to us in history of, um, a big mass of people being enslaved is African people. We were the last, the last, uh, you know, group like that.

Lex Fridman 16:35 You know, um, the pain of World War I and World War II permeates, um, Europe, but it certainly does for the Soviet, the former Soviet Union-

Magatte Wade 16:45 Mm-hmm.

Lex Fridman 16:45 ... the countries that made up the former Soviet Union.

Magatte Wade 16:47 Mm-hmm.

Lex Fridman 16:48 Does, in that same way the- the pain of, um, slavery, uh, and empires-

Magatte Wade 16:58 Mm-hmm.

Lex Fridman 16:58 ... using Africa, does that permeate the culture?

Magatte Wade 17:01 (sighs)

Lex Fridman 17:01 Is, are there still echoes of that?

Magatte Wade 17:03 In a way, yes, especially the fact that, you know, in many different, um, places, uh, whether it's Ghana or my country or Benin, where you have, um, these places that we call the door of no return, or the places of no return, which this was the last, um, place where the slaves were standing, or, you know, this is the... In Senegal, we call it the door of no return. Uh, there is this one door, you're there in the slave house, and, uh, once they go, they go. It's, um, that's- that's it. That's gonna be the last time they see back home. Um, so, you know, those, of course, of course, it co- creates for a common lived, um, experience, which co- becomes, um, common lived, um, history. And of course, it's gonna tie us up.

Lex Fridman 17:56 Is there a resentment, because you mentioned hospitality-

Magatte Wade 18:00 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 18:00 ... is there a kind of resentment of the foreigner that they... there's a rich, vibrant land.

Magatte Wade 18:07 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 18:07 There's many resources, there's-

Magatte Wade 18:08 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 18:08 ... powerful cultures.

Magatte Wade 18:10 Yes.

Lex Fridman 18:10 ... are they just going to show up and use us?

Magatte Wade 18:13 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 18:13 That's a way to see geopolitics in this modern world.

Magatte Wade 18:16 Yeah. Yeah. This is... Okay, so where it plays very differently is, so if you came to Senegal today, there is not really a problem at that level. Where people's resentment start to come from is, of course, when bad behavior shows up, meaning, like, you have so many white people who can show up. And just in their attitude, they have a- an entitlement attitude, right? And they think that in a way, we're all still servants.

Lex Fridman 18:43 Mm-hmm.

Magatte Wade 18:43 Some people, (laughs) in your face, some people more. But that can cause some little resentment. But where really the resentment is... (laughs)

Lex Fridman 18:51 And that can... the entitlement can take different forms-

Magatte Wade 18:53 Different forms.

Lex Fridman 18:53 Like even pity.

Magatte Wade 18:55 Yes.

Lex Fridman 18:55 Is, is, is-

Magatte Wade 18:56 Don't even get me going on that.

Lex Fridman 18:57 (laughs)

Magatte Wade 18:57 I was trying to be polite today. So just, (laughs) just don't. Lex, do not.

Lex Fridman 19:01 Yeah.

Magatte Wade 19:01 You know, sometimes I tell myself, "Oh my god, today you're going to be all composed. You're going to be-"

Lex Fridman 19:05 (laughs)

Magatte Wade 19:05 "You know Lex, you're all composed. So don't go there and make a fool of yourself."

Lex Fridman 19:08 Yeah.

Magatte Wade 19:08 "Just, just, just behave."

Lex Fridman 19:09 Yeah. Hold it together.

Magatte Wade 19:10 But if you, if you get me on some, some grounds, that's when it's all gonna go to hell.

Lex Fridman 19:14 Yeah. So yeah. Let's, let's, let's move beyond that to a res- so resentment. There's a dance between hospitality and resentment.

Magatte Wade 19:21 And resentment. So when you come in, you're you, you live your life. (laughs) You're just a normal human being, and you treat me decently like you would treat a friend, normal people, I have no problem with you. I'm not going to come back and be like, "Well, you and, uh, your ancestors have enslaved me. You..." You're not going to see that stuff.

Lex Fridman 19:37 Yeah.

Magatte Wade 19:38 Sometimes I... In this country, though, I feel like it's, you know... It might look like that.

Lex Fridman 19:42 Yeah.

Magatte Wade 19:42 But we, we in Africa don't do that. Now, if you come, you have this nasty attitude, you think you're still seeing servants around, well, you're gonna have a problem with someone like me, I might even grab you by the back of your neck and, you know, take you back to the airport. That's when you're lucky.

Lex Fridman 19:57 (laughs)

Magatte Wade 19:58 Um-

Lex Fridman 19:58 Humble you very quickly.

Magatte Wade 20:00 Exactly. But, um, where things come up is, especially nowadays with the African youth, when we have to be reminded of the World Bank, when we have to be reminded of, um, even the world... places like the World Economic Forum. You know, like, all of these places that seem to constitute, um, they would u- they... The way they describe them, and I say they, it's primarily my Pan-African friends. So here, maybe terms are worth describing. So, um, the Pan-African movement wa- goes way back when, um, we're talking about, you know, way back when, started in, um, in the '30s, going on all the way from there. So what you have there is, um, people who have started coming together and dreaming up an emancipated Africa away from the colonies, because at that point, they were still colonies, and dreaming up all of that. So we're talking about people like, um, Kwame Nkrumah of Ghana. We're talking about Julius Nyerere of Tanzania, talking about Blaise Diagne of Senegal and other people like that, uh, Bandia of Malawi. So anyway, so... And the African youth of today were still hanging on onto those... onto some of these ideas of, uh, and on some of to these dreams of a reunited Africa. So when you were talking about what seems to unite you, there is that, you know, also, meaning like we all feel like we're part of the same family. Is it only in our heads? Is it in reality? Many... For many different reasons, there is definitely what we call a Pan-African movement and I very much myself, um, consider myself one of them. I don't agree all the time with our... where we want to go and how we want to go there, but, um, not where we want to go. Where we want to go is we would love to see a united Africa for sure, but how to get that accomplished, that's where oftentimes we have issues. So on something like that, um, so th- this Pan-African, especially the Pan-African youth, but it's beyond the Pan-African youth, it's the youth in general in Africa, um, World Bank, UN, all of these organizations that they tend to qualify as imperialist organizations and, um, it's not always the correct way to describe them, but I'm sure you get the sentiment.

Lex Fridman 22:14 Yeah.

Magatte Wade 22:14 And from that place, there is tons of resentment because for the longest time these groups, organizations, and some that preceded them have proceeded to actually decide what even our new frontiers would be. You see, when you go to a place like Senegal, Mali, all of that, different countries, but we were one people, one, you know, one group, one kingdom what, what... And then at some point they decided just... When you look at Africa, have you looked at how straight some of these borders are? You're like, "Did a robot just draw these? Really? These are not-"

Lex Fridman 22:52 No offense to robots. (laughs)

Magatte Wade 22:52 (laughs) No offense to robot, especially this one, he looks so cute, but you know what I mean? So, so they, they have continued deciding what it would be, um, to be us, to live on our land and how do we even progress and it just keeps on going. They get to decide how are we gonna... which type of even economic development path are we going to choose or not? So it's very, um... So from that standpoint, yes, there's a lot of resentment, including even from people like me.

Lex Fridman 23:25 Yeah. And it's interesting that the invader and the oppressor and the empires have actually created a force for unity. I've seen that in, uh, Ukraine, in the invasion of Ukraine, where it was a pretty divided... not a pretty, a very divided country with many factions.

Magatte Wade 23:41 Mm-hmm.

Lex Fridman 23:41 But the invasion really forced everyone to think, uh, about the identity of this nation together-

Magatte Wade 23:48 Yes. Yes.

Lex Fridman 23:48 ... beyond factions, beyond all of that.

Magatte Wade 23:50 That's right.

Lex Fridman 23:51 It, uh, allowed it to look at its history and its future. Like they all say that all great nations have had to have a war of independence-

Magatte Wade 24:00 Mm-hmm.

Lex Fridman 24:00 And this is our war to find our own identity.

Magatte Wade 24:04 That's right.

Lex Fridman 24:04 And so in s- that sense, Africa as one place, as one continent-... found, had to find multiple times its identity through the resistance of the oppressor.

Magatte Wade 24:17 Especially Sub-Saharan Africa. Especially Sub-Saharan Africa, yes.

Lex Fridman 24:20 And there's an interesting aspect to this, because the president of Senegal is also the, um, you know, the head of the African Union. And s- so, we'll, we'll talk about the, the fascinating geopolitics of that, um, of that whole situation. But le- let me ask in general-

Magatte Wade 24:36 Mm-hmm.

Lex Fridman 24:37 You talk about this question, this fascinating question, what does it take for a country to prosper?

Magatte Wade 24:43 Mm-hmm.

Lex Fridman 24:44 What does it, it take for a country to prosper? You see many countries in the world that really struggle.

Magatte Wade 24:51 Mm-hmm.

Lex Fridman 24:52 And many that flourish.

Magatte Wade 24:53 Mm-hmm.

Lex Fridman 24:54 And it's not always obvious why, because some have natural resources, some don't.

Magatte Wade 24:59 Mm-hmm.

Lex Fridman 25:00 Some have, uh, wars, some don't. Some have, uh, sort of authoritarian regimes, some don't. And some have democracies and all that kind of stuff. So you, you... the dynamics aren't exactly obvious. Is there, is there commonalities? Is there, um, fundamental ideas that result in a prosperity of a nation?

Magatte Wade 25:24 Today, I can confidently say yes, despite all the differences that you talked about. And I think then, this is where it becomes very important that we are very clear about the question you asked me. You said, "What does it take to make a country prosperous?" So, I'm just gonna stick to prosperity, because prosperity doesn't necessarily mean, sometimes doesn't ha- has nothing to do with maybe how you, um, conduct yourself otherwise, soc- uh, socially speaking. Right? So, you can be prosperous and still, when it comes to your family laws, or the way you approach the other aspects of your life, maybe you're running a very communist lifestyle.

Lex Fridman 26:07 Mm-hmm.

Magatte Wade 26:09 Or you're in a very affort- another, a very liberal, you know, society.

Lex Fridman 26:14 Mm-hmm.

Magatte Wade 26:14 So for me, when we talk about prosperity, I just want to make sure that we are clear on that, because some people might say they, mi- might be somewhere and be like, "Well," (coughs) "you, you could..." Because I know what I'm gonna talk to you about next. And some people are gonna sit there and be like, "Well, China is not like that." Or-

Lex Fridman 26:28 Yeah.

Magatte Wade 26:28 ... you know, uh, even, um, Dubai is not like that. Um, no. So what I'm talking about is this thing, and that's what I love about this. If we just stick to, to the word prosperity-

Lex Fridman 26:37 Mm-hmm.

Magatte Wade 26:37 ... to me, I see prosperity as this. It's like, economically speaking, what are we gonna be to be a prosperous nation? Meaning we are a middle to high income nation. I'm not talking about what are the rights of your women to, to vote, or can people live like this, or, um, I'm not talking about any of that.

Lex Fridman 26:56 Yeah. Economic, fundamentally economic-

Magatte Wade 26:59 Yes.

Lex Fridman 26:59 ... prosperity.

Magatte Wade 27:00 Because I think it's, that distinction is very important, because over the years, I've seen people push back on all types of things, and I'm, and it occurred to me that that's what the, the misunderstanding was there. So if we're gonna talk about prosperity, making sure that a country can make money so that it can take care of its needs and the needs of its citizens, um, then what I have come to find is that at the root of that is gonna be what we call economic freedom, and what I call the toolkit of the entrepreneur. In that, you can put the rule of law, you can put the concept of clear and transferrable property rights. Um, economic freedom is, at all the levels, that which will allow entrepreneurs and business people to create value, and create value entrepreneurially. We're not talking about rent-seeking or anything like that. It's like you found a pie to be this big, and you make it this big. So that's what we're talking about.

Lex Fridman 27:56 Create value.

Magatte Wade 27:57 Create value. Yes. So when it comes to that, we have found that, um, whether you're looking at two countries that started the same, we're talking the same people, East Germany, West Germany, South Korea, North Korea, very similar people to start with, right? But yet, radical outcomes. I know that today, uh, Germany is united, but we're talking about back in the days when you had East and Western block. Same people, very different outcomes. Like I said, South Korea, um, North Korea, and so on and so forth. And at the same time, very different nations. Dubai, compared to a, um, Singapore or to England, very different, yet the same outcome. So it seems to me like whenever we're looking at prosperity, if a nation is prosperous, regardless of whatever other shenanigan they might be running, whatever other operating software they might be running for anything that's not related to business, if on the business side, they are proponents of a free market, or at least a base level of free markets, we know that such countries will create prosperity.

Lex Fridman 29:21 So what are the aspects of the operating systems that lead to a Singapore and to a South Korea, and all that kind of stuff? So can you speak to different elements-

Magatte Wade 29:30 Sure.

Lex Fridman 29:30 ... that enable the toolkit for entrepreneurs?

Magatte Wade 29:32 Sure, sure.

Magatte Wade 29:33 And maybe here, let me just maybe illustrate it with my own story, and then I can take you back-

Lex Fridman 29:39 Yeah.

Magatte Wade 29:39 ... to-

Lex Fridman 29:40 Yeah, what's... (laughs) My God, tell us your story.

Magatte Wade 29:44 (laughs) No, no.

Lex Fridman 29:44 Who are you?

Magatte Wade 29:45 It just, it just because it started with me coming here, you showed me

Narrator 29:47 (laughing)

Magatte Wade 29:47 ... and now it looks like I'm no need for, we no need 12th.

Lex Fridman 29:50 Yeah. (laughs)

Magatte Wade 29:50 And then you're like, "Tell people." And then... (laughs) No, no, no, but... So this is where this question, even when you asked me, "How are some, some count- how do some countries become prosperous?" That question, Lex, I had it when I was seven or so. That's when my family moved me to, um, from Senegal. For the first time of my life, I left my country, I left my continent, and I was headed to Europe.... to go join my people, my f- my family, my parents, who were there as, um, economic migrants. My parents had migrated for a better life. Us, so many people have to. So many people have to, coming from poorer places, coming from low-income countries.

Lex Fridman 30:31 So you saw the difference-

Magatte Wade 30:32 Yes!

Lex Fridman 30:33 ... between the two places.

Magatte Wade 30:34 I, I, w- uh, how else would you call it? Here you are in Senegal, minding your own business, causing tons of trouble everywhere. You know, just being a, just being a happy, free range kid that I was.

Lex Fridman 30:45 Yeah. So you were always a troublemaker, not just now?

Magatte Wade 30:47 Always.

Lex Fridman 30:48 Okay. Great.

Magatte Wade 30:49 Just, I mean, life wouldn't be fun without any trouble.

Lex Fridman 30:50 Yeah, no, of course. I agree.

Magatte Wade 30:51 I mean, right?

Lex Fridman 30:52 (laughs)

Magatte Wade 30:52 So, because even you, you know, like in your, like, uh, all put together, like front, I know there's a lot of troublemaking-

Lex Fridman 30:57 I'm-

Magatte Wade 30:57 ... behind you.

Lex Fridman 30:57 ... desperately trying to-

Magatte Wade 30:58 (laughs)

Lex Fridman 30:59 ... keep it together. Yes.

Magatte Wade 30:59 I know you are but, with me, I'm gonna totally bring it out.

Lex Fridman 31:02 Good.

Magatte Wade 31:02 So just, yeah. So-

Lex Fridman 31:04 So you saw the difference.

Magatte Wade 31:05 Right, I saw the different. I'm walking in here. Back home... And I tell people this story because to me, it's a defining story. Back home, to take a shower, it's, uh, it takes time. Grandma has to, you know, make the charcoal catch-

Lex Fridman 31:21 Mm-hmm.

Magatte Wade 31:21 ... on a little, uh, stove like you use at, you know, when you go camping. And then she puts a pot of water on it, it boils, she takes it, puts it in a bigger bucket, mixes it with some colder water. Then we put a little, uh, pot in it, and, uh, a stronger member of the family has to drag it to the shower, and then there, finally, I can proceed to take my shower.

Lex Fridman 31:40 Mm-hmm.

Magatte Wade 31:42 Here I'm in Germany in the middle of the winter and my mom's like, "My God, time for your shower," and I'm like, "I'm, well, I'm not getting naked. Where is the bot- uh, where is the on- this cold weather? Where is the, where is the bucket of hot water?" And I'm like... She's like, "Oh, you silly, come on. Just jump in." And I jump in the shower, turn the buttons, the water is coming down, temperature I want and all, playing with... Was like, "Are you kidding me?"

Lex Fridman 32:00 So amazing, so amazing.

Magatte Wade 32:01 I'd been cheated out of life my whole life.

Lex Fridman 32:03 Yeah.

Magatte Wade 32:03 So that's what happened. And then I, then, and then I'm like, "Oh, and all of these roads are paved roads, unlike back home." Everything is like sandy and, you know, my feet are always ash, I always have to wash off when I back, when I go back home, and your shoes get ruined most of the time. And it started every t- and I, and I had this question, and it was just like, "Wow, how come they have this and we don't?" So I was not being like, "Oh, you know, how come they have all of this money?" Or, I, I was not that. It was just like, "How come?" And I think what I was alluding to was, "How come life is so easy here-

Lex Fridman 32:37 Yeah.

Magatte Wade 32:37 ... and back home it's not?"

Lex Fridman 32:39 And easy not in a negative sense.

Magatte Wade 32:41 No.

Lex Fridman 32:42 In a beautiful sense. Sometimes I get, uh, you know, just having traveled through the war zone, just the come back, traveling through Europe, back to America, it just, I'll, I'll just get emotional just looking at the efficiency of things. Like-

Magatte Wade 32:55 Right.

Lex Fridman 32:55 ... how, how easy it is, how-

Magatte Wade 32:57 Right.

Lex Fridman 32:57 ... that we can, um... First of all, in Ukraine you c- currently can't fly, right? It's a war zone. Just even the, the thing, uh, transportation. You said roads. Yeah, the quality of roads (laughs) in the United States is amazing. Just not, you know, many of the places I had to drive in Ukraine, you're talking about, I mean, uh, really bad conditions of roads. And I'm sure in many parts of Africa and many parts of the world is the roads are even worse.

Magatte Wade 33:23 Right, right.

Lex Fridman 33:24 And outdoor, you know, having a toi- indoor toilet is a l- is a, is a fascinatingly awesome luxury to have. (laughs)

Magatte Wade 33:32 Mm-hmm. It is. It is. And don't take me wrong, Lex. Do we have some great roads now in many parts of Africa?

Lex Fridman 33:41 Yes.

Magatte Wade 33:41 Yes.

Lex Fridman 33:41 Yes.

Magatte Wade 33:42 Main arteries, great roads, you're like, "Whoa, this is moving." It, it, w- yes, we do, uh, but definitely, uh, more today than in my time growing up. Um, do we have, you know, a country like Nigeria, that just birthed, um, six unicorns last year alone? Yes. Do we have the African youth out there being so amazing and, uh, r- you know, living their lives? Yes. We have all of that. But it is still unfortunately just, like, we're scratching the surface.

Lex Fridman 34:18 Yeah.

Magatte Wade 34:18 And those people still are getting all of that accomplished literally swimming through molasses.

Lex Fridman 34:23 Mm-hmm.

Magatte Wade 34:23 This is some of the most, most gross, immoral, unfair waste of human capital.

Lex Fridman 34:35 And so that is the, started with you (laughs) as a seven year old asking, "Wait a minute. How do, uh, amazing people in Europe do this and the amazing people in Africa don't?"

Magatte Wade 34:50 Yeah. And that's the key word, amazing, because that's when I, that's what I realized later because... And I, it was not always v- like that for me, amazing and amazing, right? I knew instinctively that, well, of course we are amazing too. But so this, and then the, so eventually the question became, "How..." So I went from, "How come they have this and we don't?" To the country as I'm growing up and researching, because it stayed with me. When I tell you I'm obsessed, I'm haunted. I am haunted. So, you can laugh all you want, but it's-

Lex Fridman 35:19 (laughs)

Magatte Wade 35:19 So the question became (laughs) , the question became, "How come some countries like, um, the United States, Singapore, are rich, and some others like mine and many others in Africa are poor?" That became the question. And along the line, Lex, along the, the, the road, I l- I continued on living my life wondering about this question. And I've heard all types of reasons as to suppositive why that might be the case. Some people with a very straight face are still peddling the IQ fury, according to which, "Come on, darling, it's not your fault. You know, your skin color goes with the gene sequence that just doesn't allow you to be as smart as white people are. And it's not your fault, but just accept it." That stuff is still out there. It's very real. I, and I have to hear it.... and others would say to me, "Oh, it's just because, you know, you guys don't have a- adequate level of, um, education." And I say, "You know, maybe you gotta go say that to most of the street sellers you go see in Senegal." You go up to any of these... to many of these street sellers in Senegal, they are waiting through cars, in m- moving cars, under the hot sun, fumes thrown at their face, trying to sell you anything and any... e- e- that you think you might be able to use. Whether we're talking about, um, a- an ironing board to an umbrella to Q-tips to, um, you know, teeth, toothpicks, selling you whatever you need from the... from your car. These are street sellers. And you ask them, "Dear, d- do... do you have any degree?" "Yeah, I... I have this great, uh, degree in math or in... in... in, uh, literature," or whatever. Some very, very educated people, yet they're right there. This is what they're doing.

Lex Fridman 37:22 So that's just, at scale, wasted human potential.

Magatte Wade 37:27 Thank you. Thank you.

Lex Fridman 37:29 So that has to do... The wasted human potential has to do now with the system, with something about the laws, which is-

Magatte Wade 37:37 Just... yeah.

Lex Fridman 37:39 Something... Some- something about sort of, uh, the things that limit or enable the entrepreneur.

Magatte Wade 37:45 Yes, because at that point, I've heard this. You know, I heard people say, "Yeah, your IQ is no good. Yeah, you're not... you don't have enough degrees or you're not educated. No." Some people would even say, "It's because you guys are malnourished. You're malnourished."

Lex Fridman 37:59 (laughs)

Magatte Wade 37:59 "You need to be fed." Others, "Oh, well, maybe I give you some shoes and maybe something is gonna change," whatever. And then... So I heard all of this nonsense, Lex, but you guess what? But guess what? None of it made sense. Do you know why it didn't make sense? Because if any of that crap was true, why, oh, why is it that my parents or any other people from these places and... Oh, and by the way, some people call those places godforsaken land. That's also the type of crap you always have to hear when it's not just flat out S-H-I-T whole countries from, you know, one person a few years ago, president of his country.

Lex Fridman 38:40 That sentiment is sometimes there, is what you're saying.

Magatte Wade 38:42 It is. It... It... It... It... It is. As I go on with my life trying to ans- trying to find the answer to why are some countries like mine poor while others are rich, I'm hearing all of these reasons thrown at me and then they make no sense. Because then how come then if my parents move as it is usually anyone else who moves from a... a... a poorer nation to a nation that supposedly is rich, all the sudden, they get to manifest the greatest potential? So I'm starting to think this has nothing to do with the person per se, because we're talking about the same person, same background, same everything, same name-

Lex Fridman 39:19 Yeah.

Magatte Wade 39:19 ... features, everything.

Lex Fridman 39:20 Yeah.

Magatte Wade 39:21 Now, I'm starting to think maybe it doesn't have to do with the person. Maybe we're talking about something that has to do with the place that they came from or the place-

Lex Fridman 39:28 Yes.

Magatte Wade 39:28 ... that they're going to. So this... this little thing is starting to be in my mind. Again, remember, this is not something that I woke up to overnight and I'm like, "Voila, I got my qu..." Uh-uh. It took me for a long time and I had to... I had to... to face off, to have many different ideologies face each other. I had to really have a reckoning literally in my heart and in my mind. And so... so then that's what I'm thinking, "I- it cannot be. It cannot... No, no, no, if it's the same people, it has to be about the place." But then what about this place? But then even about the place, you're thinking, again, two countries, different backgrounds, same outcome, same background, different outcome. Hmm, what is this? And then I go on. I start a com- I... I am, uh, in Silicon Valley in the late, um, uh, '90s, early 2000s, dot-com boom, all of that. And, um, I'm starting to discover this concept of, uh, this thing called entrepreneurship. You know, I'm in Silicon Valley and, uh, just getting to experience what, um, seems so cliche by now, but, you know, people on the... getting together on the back of a napkin, talking about an idea, you know, bring it out, and then they go out and they talk to some... to some invest- investors who's gonna invest in it. Then they have the lawyers who get to, you know, put all of this stuff together, and then they have, uh, the... the Big Four CPA firms. This whole ecosystem of what they call... of entrepreneurship, and then eventually this concept of entrepreneurship being this, uh, this idea of, um, you know, creating something out of nothing.

Lex Fridman 40:59 Yeah.

Magatte Wade 40:59 So there I am. And at some point, I become an entrepreneur myself. And the way I became an entrepreneur was not like, I woke up and I'm like, "I want to make money, so I'm gonna become an entrepreneur." You know, like... No. And this is also another problem I have with people who have a problem with entrepreneurs or business people. Most entrepreneurs do not start a business to become rich. Most entrepreneurs start a business because they have found, identified a problem that bothered them enough that they said, "Enough is enough. I'm gonna do something about it." What entrepreneurs are, are people who criticize by creating. Do they always get it right? No. As a matter of fact, the failure in entrepreneurship is humongous. It's... It's... It's kamikaze path to take the entrepreneurship path. We lose our spouses. My first husband passed away as soon as I was about to sign my first term sheet, and yet I had to keep going. What force can keep you going after you just loved... lost the love of your life? What force keeps you going? The force of, oh, I just want to be rich. Really? When your whole... your whole world is upside down? Your whole world is upside down and you just want to quit? You just want to go meet him and join him in death? I stayed why? Because of the same reason why I started my company-... I stayed because the women whom I had put back to work by then, we're talking about some of the most vulnerable women in my country. These are women who grow the hibiscus, which we need to make the bissap, which is the juice of teranga, remember? This is our national identity drink. And for the longest time, women grow this hibiscus that we use for the national drink for the... this drink. And now that Coca-Cola, Pepsi, and all that had made it through the marketing, that it is more cool to drink those beverages, now there is no more market for the hibiscus. And with that goes the livelihoods of these women. And for me, that bothered me enough, because in that force, I saw two things. One was a part of my culture. We're talking about, I mean, my... part of my c- cultural identity, for Christ's sake, the juice of teranga. You asked me, "What defines you?" I said, "Teranga." There's a juice for it. So my culture is disappearing, and at the same time, these women are sliding into abject poverty, because what they used to make, no one needs anymore.

Lex Fridman 43:25 Yeah.

Magatte Wade 43:26 So that is what got me to start a company. And the company was created just because of that. I wanted to build a company that would allow me to not only preserve this very important aspect of my cultural identity and at the same time, put these women back to work.

Lex Fridman 43:48 And maybe it's more difficult to put into words, but there's a kind of... It's a basic human spirit, where you see the- the place where you came from breaking apart in some kind of way, and you have the entrepreneurial fire that dreams of helping.

Magatte Wade 44:08 Yes.

Lex Fridman 44:09 And that, sometimes it's hard to, uh, convert that into words. You have to tell nice stories and so on. But it's the basic human desire to help.

Magatte Wade 44:17 Yes.

Lex Fridman 44:18 And, uh-

Magatte Wade 44:18 Especially when-

Lex Fridman 44:19 ... like you said, criticize by creating.

Magatte Wade 44:21 Creating. Especially when you've been-

Lex Fridman 44:22 It's such a beautiful phrase.

Magatte Wade 44:23 Especially when, and let's face it, um, do we all... are we all a bundle of circumstances, some happy, some, some worse? Yes, we are. And, um, oftentimes, I ask myself, "My God, why you? Why did you, why did you get to have the opportunities that you have? What makes you different from, let's say, even your cousin-"

Lex Fridman 44:46 Yeah.

Magatte Wade 44:46 "... that couldn't... that is still home-

Lex Fridman 44:48 Yeah.

Magatte Wade 44:48 "... trapped?" Because we call ourself trapped citizens. When you're strapped in these countries that go nowhere, you're- you're c- we're- we're like a bunch of trapped citizens. So- so you see, Lex, when my husband passed away and I wanted nothing more to do than to quit, and to send... Investors had already said, "We understand if you want to stop. Whatever you decide to do, we'll do that." And I wanted to quit, and I was actually on my way, I was in Senegal for a month, trying to really get a bearing over myself. And, um, by the end of a month, I had decided, um, I'm letting go. There's no way. The pain was too great. Um, nothing made sense anymore. It was too much. So I went to see these women, and, um, I talked to the one who, you know... We're talking back then, there were 400 of them. Later on, we grew to 9,000. And, um, I told the representative of all of them, and I told her, this is very... this very old lady. And just looking at her, I knew I was going through some pain, but this woman has probably gone through 10 times... Not that pain is calc- you know, like measurable, but you could tell this woman probably lost a child, as oftentimes happen in places, you know, that are lower income countries. Probably lost a husband also. Probably, who knows, so many people. Loss is part of our lives.

Lex Fridman 46:13 You could see the pain.

Magatte Wade 46:14 You can see the pain. Yet she's so, so dignified. She's so dignified. And that already kind of made me like, "My God, stop crying." But... and I told... and I told her that I was quitting. I could not look her in the eyes. And, um... and she said, "Look at me." I could not look her in the eyes. I said... She said, "Look at me, child." (sighs) And I looked at her, and she said, "You know, I know you're in pain, but where your husband is, where your beloved is, there's absolutely nothing that you can do for him. But for us, you can change everything." And I went back. So that's what entrepreneurs are at their best.

Lex Fridman 47:01 So she helped you find your strength?

Magatte Wade 47:03 Yes.

Lex Fridman 47:03 (laughs)

Magatte Wade 47:04 And I- I- I was... I was weak still, but I said, "You put that aside. There's a job to do here." And I went back. And Lex, I fought with everything that I had. And this company that I started in my kitchen became this company that had the who's who of the beverage world, with, at some point, Roger Enrico, the chairman of PepsiCo, sitting on my- on my board, on my board. Yeah. I went back because of that. So the reason why I tell this story for me is important, because I... it... the world needs to understand that there are so... that there's a much more... there's a viable way of caring and of, um, being part of a solution for the lesser fortunate, in terms of not keeping them where they are and we're like the saviors coming and, you know, giving them food and all that. No, no, no, no, no. But it's like, just like the leg up I got in my life, give somebody else a leg up.

Lex Fridman 48:10 What are the things you're fighting against in Africa when you try to build a business like that?

Magatte Wade 48:17 (laughs) So when we're building this company, and back then, this was in 2004, that was when I built my first company.... we had to have, um, two sister companies, one there, one here. So the one in the u- in, uh, um, Africa was about the whole supply chain.

Lex Fridman 48:36 Yeah.

Magatte Wade 48:37 And, uh, the one in America was, you know, uh, re- research and development, sales and marketing, all of that good stuff. And then at some point I look around, I'm like, "Wait a second. Here, back in the days, before we had the..." you know, like, they would talk. They would say, "Oh, we have this one-stop shop for business registration." But the truth is, very quickly you can set up an LLC in the US. We're talking about less than, even then, less than... you know, today it's super fast, 20 minutes online, done. Back then it was, you know, less than few hours to get it done. Um, cost you almost nothing. We're talking about a few hundred dollars, you know, free... two to three hundred and fifty, depending which state you are.

Lex Fridman 49:19 So LLC, starting a basic company takes almost no time.

Magatte Wade 49:23 No time. No time, no money, almost.

Lex Fridman 49:25 You don't have to know a guy that knows a guy that, uh-

Magatte Wade 49:30 No.

Lex Fridman 49:30 ... slips some money to the politician and so on.

Magatte Wade 49:33 No. No. None of that stuff. None of that stuff. And so at the same time, also things like, um ... and this I can take you even to today's day. Okay, Lex, I don't know if you have, um, employees on payroll or anything like that. Uh, but do you have to go every month ... or anybody listening to us right now-

Lex Fridman 49:52 Mm-hmm.

Magatte Wade 49:52 ... do they have to go every single month to three different type of agencies, um, um, you know, like governmental agencies, to do one step? This one is basically you're going to go and give them your retirement money, like, you know, like, uh, the pension part of the salary that you took out from the- your employee. You have to go to this agency and put that application through. So you leave that money behind. Then you go to another agency. This one is for the health, you know, care, whatever. You have three of those places where you have to literally go to-

Lex Fridman 50:32 Yeah.

Magatte Wade 50:32 ... in person. Three times, three places every single month to drop off these, you know, these paperwork. Do you have to do that anywhere in the US? I mean, c- c- do you, do we have that situation anywhere that you know of right now?

Lex Fridman 50:47 No. No.

Magatte Wade 50:48 And do you think that's, uh, business friendly or do you think it's, uh, it's cumbersome on business?

Lex Fridman 50:52 And that's not just cumbersome sort of physically, it's cumbersome psychologically. That there's, um, there's a feeling like the system around you... yeah, there's a feeling like you're trapped. It's a feeling like the system doesn't want you to succeed, versus a system that does want you to succeed.

Magatte Wade 51:09 Exactly. You're in a country like, uh... we're in Texas. If you make less than a million bucks in revenues, uh, o- a year, you know, all you do, five minutes it takes you, you're filing, you know, your, uh, um, state, uh, your, uh, franchise, um, tax. That's it. It's below that number, tell them what it is. Then you have nothing to give them or anything like that, you move on. Us, even if I make this much, there is a minimum tax that you have to pay, which is $1,000 in Senegal right now.

Lex Fridman 51:42 For the listener, Magatte was (laughs) holding up a zero.

Magatte Wade 51:47 (laughs) You make no money, right?

Lex Fridman 51:49 You still have to pay.

Magatte Wade 51:49 You still have to pay. So, so, and then, oh, let me walk you through what happened to me when we had to try to get the electricity, uh, hooked up on our first office. So we go, they say, "Oh, first you have to apply." You know, like you normally, you have to apply. Then we apply, we pay the money. Remember, again, here you have to also go. This was like b- back, you know, you go to the office and you pay. And then we wait and we wait and we wait. And when I say we wait, I'm not talking about we waited 24 hours, we waited 48 hours. A month, two months, three months, four months, five months. You go, this, you send your assistant, she goes, she comes back, "Uh, well," they say, "we still need to wait." At some point I'm like, "I gotta go there." So I go there and, um, I ask to speak to the head of the district for the... you know. And, um, I'm just like going on and on and on and on about how we've been delayed, this is gonna be a problem, we have to produce, everything is delayed, and I'm, I'm, I risk losing my business. Uh, we already pre-sold some of these products to our customers. I gotta... something needs to happen. So at some point, the gentleman looks at me, he's like, "Lady, look over there." I look over there. I see a pile of paper this high. We're talking about maybe hundreds of applications. Each one of them i- is a single, single, single sheet. Each single sheet is an application for getting, um, the electricity. And he says, "Do you see that?" I said, "Yeah." And he said, "Look over there." I look over there to the other side. I see two meters. He's like, "Each of these applications needs one of those. How many do you see?" I said, "Two." Then I knew I was in trouble. And then I said, "What do I do?" And he said, "Lady, it's not at our level." And I, I agreed with him. It was not on his level. But eventually, and, you know, by now you can tell that I pretty much get what I need because... and at that point what I did was not threaten him or anything like that. I didn't even pay a bribe or anything. But you could see why people pay bribes. Because when you have a pile like that, then the only way to advance your file... and that, by the way, happens even in the passport office.

Lex Fridman 53:56 Yeah.

Magatte Wade 53:57 You come, you apply for your passport, which is your right. They en- they forced us to have passports. It's your right as a citizen to have a passport. And even there, if you want your- yours to keep going through the process, you have to bribe somebody so it can go even the pace it's supposed to go, let alone faster. So here, I'm s- thinking I have a problem. And at that point, I did what I do. I talked to him about all the things I was trying to do. I explained to him why I'm here, why I'm trying to do this. And even him said, "Lady, someone like you, you have no re- you, you, you have no reason to even be here. You, you could be back in America living your life la vida loca. You don't have to be here." So that I think gained a lot of his respect. And I said, "If you don't do... if you don't help me with this, I, I understand. I shouldn't be of a priority or anything like that, but I beg you, I beg of you, I need, I need for this to go on this week."... and he said, "Okay." That's how I got my meter. One of his two meters became mine.

Lex Fridman 54:50 (laughs)

Magatte Wade 54:50 So then he said, "But we have a problem." And I said, "What?" He said, "Well, the truck, we need a s- a truck to be here to do it because, because of where you are from the pole, we need long cable lines to get it all done. But the truck is, I don't know..." I don't know where the truck was, because they had this one truck for I don't know how many customers. So I go to the mayor of the town, with whom I'm quite friends ... But you see, I know people. But it shouldn't be this way. So I go to the mayor of the town and I said, "Mayor," who happens to have the same name as me, first, last name same. But except he's the ugly one, I'm the pretty one, because you know, he's not...

Lex Fridman 55:27 (laughs) Of course.

Magatte Wade 55:28 You know? You know? Right.

Lex Fridman 55:30 That's, that's so people can tell you apart. She's the pretty one, right?

Magatte Wade 55:33 Exactly. I'm the pretty one and he's the whatever.

Lex Fridman 55:35 (laughs)

Magatte Wade 55:35 So, so I got to the mayor and I'm like, "Mayor, you need, I need your help. You need to help me with this." He's like, "Now what?" And I explained to him. And he's like, "Okay, you can take the truck from the, from the, from the city hall. I'll tell the guys that they can allow you to have it, and then they'll come and then you guys can do this." And then we arrive there. Guess what? I thought I was done, Lex, but I was not done. Because now, the electricity company, by the way, whom we paid, everything was there. They've been sitting on our money for nine months by now. "Well, we need a ladder long enough to..." You know, like one of the super, super professional ladders that normally the electricity companies have. The- theirs was in some other village, and they didn't know if it was going to be back for another three days or four days. I said, "Are you kidding me?" He's like, "No." So I call mayor again, I'm just like, "Mayor, do you have a ladder?" And I explained and he said... And that's how I got my, uh, electrici- my electricity hooked up. Otherwise, I probably be, would still be waiting. So Lex, you add all of these things together, and also the fact that in my country, by the way, the labor laws are so stringent. Basically, you are married to your employees for good or for bad. And some people say, "Oh No, you're not married for good or for bad." Except that it will just cost you a lot of time and money to get in- rid of any of them. It doesn't matter of the circumstances. Do you think I really, an entrepreneur really needs to hear something like that? You know, the head of the ILO, I had an argument with him at the UN. And I said to him, "Listen, and you listen to me very well. The reason, if you want to protect employees as you claim, everything you're doing is to protect employees. A, you know better of a human being than I am in terms of making s- wanting to make sure that people are treated right and fairly. But last time I checked, Google, for example, is not offering their employees chef-cooked meals, super healthy, anything they want, uh, feeding them from morning till evening, um, having some, um, you know, babysitters or, you know, having healthcare, um, uh, childcare on site. All of these perks that come on top of really cozy salaries. It did not happen because you, the ILO, told them, 'You have to do this.' It happened because there are enough jobs created around that now, you're in an employee's market and employers have to fall all over themselves to attract the best talent among us. That's how it's done, and not with your nonsense that you're imposing me right now, which the only result you're gonna get, like in my country, do you know what we have to show for all of these, the fact that the Senegalese employee is the most protected employee on paper in the world? Well, we're one of the 25 poorest countries in the world. That's what it got us."

Lex Fridman 58:23 Uh, so let's try to s- untangle this. So there's a system in place.

Magatte Wade 58:28 Mm-hmm.

Lex Fridman 58:28 There's a momentum with that system. Like you said, "Lady, it's not my level," which is, um, for somebody who grew up in the Soviet Union, um, at least echoes some of the same sounds I heard, um, from, from people I knew there.

Magatte Wade 58:45 Right.

Lex Fridman 58:45 It's kind of this helpless feeling like, well, this is just part of the system, this gigantic bureaucracy. And the corruption that happens is just like the only way to get around, to get anything done.

Magatte Wade 58:58 Mm-hmm.

Lex Fridman 58:58 And so the corruption grows.

Magatte Wade 59:00 Mm-hmm.

Lex Fridman 59:00 Maybe could you speak to the corruption? Is there, is, to what degree is there corruption in Senegal and Africa, and, um, how do we fix it?

Magatte Wade 59:12 (laughs) So when you say to which degrees if there's corruption, I will respond to you the same I respond to people. I say, "Yeah, we have corruption and it's almost as bad as in Chicago." Yeah. Right? So, um, now, what I want people to understand when it comes to corruption, it's, uh... Because we are misguided with corruption. We think corruption is the root cause of problems when corruption is simply a symptom of a deeper root problem. In this case, um, if you make the laws so senseless, meaning, let me give you an example of senseless laws. Every time I have to import something in my country, I have a business. We're making lip balms in this case, and others, uh, skincare products. Some ingredients I'm able to find in the country at the standard that I need in order to remain competitive 'Cause for example, our products are sold at Whole Foods Market. You can understand it's a pretty sophisticated and really, you know, it, they don't just put anybody on the shelves. But the thing is, it means that on the other end, my inputs has to be right. So out of those, some, we have seven ingredients, seven, uh, items that need to come from abroad to go into the making of this product. Some packaging and some raw material. But guess what, Lex? For five of them, I am paying a 40% tariff.... and for the other two, almost 70% tariff. That I call senseless laws. These tariffs are senseless.

Lex Fridman 1:00:58 Yeah, corruption is just a symptom. They reveal that something was broken about the laws.

Magatte Wade 1:01:02 Exactly.

Lex Fridman 1:01:03 And, and the laws are... So taxation, um, this kind of res- restricting laws. Like, laws that slow down the entrepreneurial momentum.

Magatte Wade 1:01:14 They do. They do. Because in this case, when my product comes, what do people have to do? Because every time... If you, if you add 40%, you are basically on the other end. So every time you add, um... If, let's say, my product normally cost a dollar and with your 40%, by the time I'm done, I had to pay, I had... Now, it's costing me $1.40 by the time it arrives in my warehouse, in my manufacturing facility. It's now at $1.40 because of the tariff I left behind. That 40% you added to it, do you know how much it's going to add to my final cost that once the product is finished, I have to sell it to the customer? I have to sell it for $1.60 more because of that 40 cents, uh, extra you took from me. In order for me at the end of the day to have some type of profits, because profits at the end of the day, um, is, uh, the blood of a business. There too, people are misguided. They say, "Oh, you dirty, greedy business people, and it's all about profit, profit, profit, profit." You know, I belong to this organization called... I'm a board member on the Conscious Capitalism. It is the largest organization of purpose-driven businesses and entrepreneurs, the type of people I told you about. We start our businesses because we, we see something that needs to be, to be taken care of in society. Whole Foods Market is one of them, The Container Store, you know, all of these companies that are beloved in the US that you can hear of. We believe that the end goal of business is purpose. But in order to do purpose, you have to have profits to stay in- to stay alive. And the best way for people to think of profit so that they're not all twisted about it... Lex, if I asked you, "What's your goal in the world?" You're probably gonna tell me your dream. You're gonna talk to me about what you're doing right now and how you want to be uniting... Um, you want a more harmonious world. You want human flourishing. That's what you're working towards. That's what you say to me. You're not gonna say, "Well, my biggest goal in the world is to produce as many red blood cells as I can."

Lex Fridman 1:03:26 Mm-hmm.

Magatte Wade 1:03:27 Except you need to produce those, otherwise no Lex. And if no Lex-

Lex Fridman 1:03:31 (laughs)

Magatte Wade 1:03:31 ... no one working. (laughs)

Lex Fridman 1:03:33 Yeah.

Magatte Wade 1:03:33 You know what I mean?

Lex Fridman 1:03:34 Yeah.

Magatte Wade 1:03:35 So that's how. So people need to stop with this whole profit, non-pr. Yeah. Do we have some psychopaths among us? Yeah, 1% of us in this world are psychopaths.

Lex Fridman 1:03:43 Yeah.

Magatte Wade 1:03:43 In every field, anywhere you look. And surely you find that in the entrepreneurial, in entrepreneurs world as well. Yeah, so we have 1% of us who are psychopath for sure. But do they define the rest of us? Absolutely not and thankfully not. So let's just be clear on that. So here the, you know, my... You charge me 40% tariff, which is outrageous. Then you're forcing me to sell it for $1.60 more than my competitor who does not have to go through that nonsense because she's an American woman who is operating in America and she doesn't have that nonsense put on her. So now I'm on this market competing against this woman eye to eye. So if we're selling the same value product, mine costs $1.60 more simply because of some stupid rules from back home, then guess who's going to stay in business and who doesn't? See, they want to talk about equality. That's the type of equality I want to see. The playing level- the level- the playing field has to be leveled. I told you, English is my fourth language, so.

Lex Fridman 1:04:41 Well, there's two- Yeah.

Magatte Wade 1:04:42 (laughs)

Lex Fridman 1:04:42 ... two people talking.

Magatte Wade 1:04:42 (laughs)

Lex Fridman 1:04:44 Between us, maybe we'll have this English thing figured out.

Magatte Wade 1:04:46 We'll have it-

Lex Fridman 1:04:47 (laughs)

Magatte Wade 1:04:47 (laughs) We'll have it figured out.

Lex Fridman 1:04:48 So the in- in- the-the idea of capitalism, the idea of conscious capitalism is the, the thing that in large part enables this level playing field.

Magatte Wade 1:04:57 Ex- W- that's what we want. So, so what you're trying to say... So here, th- so when I talked about senseless laws, that's an example. So when you make the, when you make the tariffs so high that in- you're gonna render me, um, you know, uncom- non-competitive, then that's where, for people who might make sense, when the product arrives at port, they say, "Hey, I give you this." What I give you, maybe it's 10% of the price or 5%. It's surely not 40%, but you are happy with it. You've a government official. That's what we call a bribe. And me, I'm like, "Hey, I saved myself money and, um, also I saved myself time." But you see, if the laws were you pay 5% or even the 10% that I just left behind or nothing, you come, you pay, you move on, because who has the business of fooling around and staying behind and... No, you do that when it's actually, uh, makes sense to do that. So I'm not sitting here telling people I engage in unlawful practices. In my case, because I'm around saying the things I'm saying right now, so I'm a target. You have to do things cleanly, and I believe in doing things that way. So what I had to do was go to the... Ask again mayor, "We have a problem." Mayor is, whenever he sees me, he's like, "Now what?" (laughs)

Lex Fridman 1:06:12 (laughs)

Magatte Wade 1:06:13 So I'm like, "We've got a problem." So I say-

Lex Fridman 1:06:14 You're best friends now.

Magatte Wade 1:06:15 (laughs) Yes. So I say, "Now it's the customs." And, and he's like, "What do you want me to do?" I said, "Do you know anybody at customs? I need a higher-up at customs 'cause I got to explain to them what's going on here." They all know, of course, but I think they're not always maybe understanding or maybe they understand and... And in this case, he understood. So we went and, uh, he's like, "Yeah, I know this is not... (sighs) This is not very..." Yeah, it's... And I said, "What do we do now?" And I saw him going through binders and binders on in his office because he's gonna try to go and look where in the law can we find something that can help me escape-

Lex Fridman 1:06:53 Oh.

Magatte Wade 1:06:54 ... these rules.... and you know the best he found, Lex, was, "Oh, well, here, see this one. If you've been in business for two years, then, uh, we can allow you..." There is a special term for it in F- which French is technical. "We can allow you to bring your raw material, but you have to tell us exactly how much you're bringing and it has to match your formulation." Because, you know, they don't want you to bring in more that, uh, we need and maybe sell some of that to the rest of the market and they didn't make their money on it. So there, it means I have to give them my recipe. Imagine Coca-Cola being asked to give their secret sauce to government officials in a country that you cannot even know what might happen. Let alone, even in business you don't do that. I mean, trade secrets are trade secrets. But here, you're asked to be putting it in front of some people you don't know where it's going to go after that. Because there, they get to see, "Okay, her recipe calls for X amount of, um, b- uh, of, uh, candelilla wax, X amount of, um, uh, coconut, um, coconut oil. Okay, and on top of that we have to think about how much porridge might there be or not because, again, we don't want her to, to, to bu- to buffer it over there." So you have to get naked in front of them, in terms of your recipe, which might end up only God knows where tomorrow, maybe competi- competition or maybe even them. They start a business and they compete with you-

Lex Fridman 1:08:12 Yeah.

Magatte Wade 1:08:12 ... 'cause we've seen that. So, um, you have to do that and then each time, fill out- fill out the paperwork, get the approval, then it can come in. So when it can come in, you don't have to pay the tax. "Oh, and by the way, you only ha- you have one year, one year to make this product and get it out. And all of it needs to be back out, because if it's- any of it stays here, you're going to pay the, the taxes that we held up."

Lex Fridman 1:08:33 So you're basically forced by these, uh, senseless-

Magatte Wade 1:08:37 Laws.

Lex Fridman 1:08:38 ... laws-

Magatte Wade 1:08:38 Yes.

Lex Fridman 1:08:38 ... to be dishonest, if you want to succeed.

Magatte Wade 1:08:41 That's where corruption... All of this was so... It's so cumbersome because each o- it means more paperwork, paperwork everywhere, maybe having to disclose your thing. So me, in my case, what I did is, um, you know, w- this person said, "Okay, we're gonna see how we can, how we can work with you." But, uh, for the first two years, we were more or less in the gray area.

Lex Fridman 1:09:00 Yeah, so... (laughs) But even gray area's good. (laughs)

Magatte Wade 1:09:04 Yeah. But, but, but, Lex, what does it mean? In a situation like that-

Lex Fridman 1:09:07 Yeah.

Magatte Wade 1:09:07 ... whenever they want to mess with you-

Lex Fridman 1:09:08 Yeah.

Magatte Wade 1:09:09 ... it means they can come. And they will look and they will find something. So it means that every day I'm trying to do business, I'm running the risk of being harassed and/or maybe even put in jail depending on what it is.

Lex Fridman 1:09:21 I mean, you're an incredible person because it seems like there's two ways to change this. Uh, become president or gain power in the country and to try to change the laws, which seems really difficult to do. And the other way is fight through the laws and create the business anyway, build the business community and through that method, create a huge amount of pressure-

Magatte Wade 1:09:50 That's-

Lex Fridman 1:09:50 ... to change the laws.

Magatte Wade 1:09:50 You're totally getting it by- b- with your last part because... See, this is the other thing and this is where I get so upset sometimes with, um, my fellow Africans because they get so disgusted by what they're seeing, right? And they think the answer is to go for politics. "Let's go be president. Let's go be this, let's go be that, and we're going to change everything." I see that in the US too. People thinking that presidents have all this power. Do you know who has the least power in government? The president.

Lex Fridman 1:10:18 Yeah.

Magatte Wade 1:10:18 I mean, people don't get that. Um, your best bet, uh, if you're gonna w- if you insist on going into politics, stick to the local level. That's where all the skeletons are buried and hidden and that's where you can make the most impact. Local level. I know it's not shiny, I know it's not exciting, but that's where it's at. So if you must go into politics. But there, there's another way. So in my case, what I do is two things. I preach and I practice. I preach. When I'm here talking to you about this, I'm preaching.

Lex Fridman 1:10:44 Mm-hmm.

Magatte Wade 1:10:45 I am sharing with people that is which I found. And by the way, the answer was there. I was doing these two businesses, realizing the difference in treatment of, um, the doing business environment of the US compared to the doing business environment of Senegal. And at first I was like, "Of course us, everything is messed up. It's because we're a poor country." But when I started to put two and two together, I'm like, "You're poor because you have no money, at least not enough money to take care of your basic needs. You have no money because you have no source of income." Where does a source of income come from for most of us? It comes from a job, doesn't it? And then some people sometimes, at my UC Berkeley class, they say, "Oh no, it comes from government too." I'm like, "I would like to think that even if you work for government, you're gonna be paid something, right?" And they're like, "Yeah." And then even before I can say something, they're like, "Ugh." Yeah, because that money we use to pay our public officials comes from taxes, you know, employers, employees would go back to the private sector-

Lex Fridman 1:11:45 Hmm.

Magatte Wade 1:11:45 ... for most of it, from where this whole thing is created. So, it's clear, you're poor because you have no money, no money because no source of income. Source of income for most of us is a job. We're talking about, uh, so where do jobs come from? The private sector. Primarily small and medium-sized enterprises. Then don't you think that we should make it easy, that we should have a friendly doing business environment?

Lex Fridman 1:12:12 And also, a lot of the v- a lot of it comes not just from the small and medium-sized businesses, but I think a lot of the value is created from new ones being launched.

Magatte Wade 1:12:25 Yes.

Lex Fridman 1:12:26 Right? It's not just like me, like, saving somehow through regulation the ones that are already there.

Magatte Wade 1:12:31 No. No.

Lex Fridman 1:12:32 It's, it's like-

Magatte Wade 1:12:33 It's-

Lex Fridman 1:12:33 ... letting the market, let it, letting the new better ideas-

Magatte Wade 1:12:37 Yes.

Lex Fridman 1:12:37 ... flourish.

Magatte Wade 1:12:38 Yes. It's about... What I, what I mean by doing business environment is all the things that you and I talked about earlier. Even the access of electricity is part of the doing business. The doing business... So basically, when I've discovered all of that, when I put all those dots together, then I'm like, "Well, I guess the business..." And it makes sense, Lex. If you want to grow tomatoes, you're gonna have to have two things. One is a good seed-... right? It has good attributes. And then you're gonna have to have, um, a good environment for it. Is the soil the right one? What's your pH level? All of those good nutrients that you're gonna put in it. Is it in a place that has tons of sun? Well, how much sun exposure or not? The climate in general, is it gonna be cold? Not, not. You can't have some beautiful tomatoes in the mi- middle of Siberia, last time I checked. So same thing here. You know, Muhammad Yunus, the Nobel, um, Laureate, uh, in p- for Peace said, "Poor people are bonsai people." They're the same people. If you put them in the normal natural a- a friendly habitat where they can thrive, they become the tallest tree in the forest. Poor people are bonsai people. So you see that tiny pot you put around the bonsai tree? That's the tiny pot that created by giving me such a hostile business environment, that basically were put together by the set of laws that you have put, that basically I have to jump through as a business person practicing business in my country. If you turn that h- environment into a friendly environment, where I am not married to my employees, I have flexibility of, uh, the, the labor laws are simple, straightforward, clean. Where the tax code is very simple, it's not worth truckloads of laws like in my country. It's so complicated, you have to hire a CPA, which costs more money and even them tell them, "Girl, we're gonna make some mistakes." They don't ta- they don't talk to me like that. It's n- Now cont- you know, they don't say to me, "Girl, they shouldn't..." They, they, they, they better not. But they say-

Lex Fridman 1:14:43 (laughs)

Magatte Wade 1:14:44 ... whatever they say. They say-

Lex Fridman 1:14:46 I'm scared. (laughs) I'm scared.

Magatte Wade 1:14:47 (laughs) You know? You know, they're like, "We're gonna..." But bottom line is-

Lex Fridman 1:14:52 (laughs)

Magatte Wade 1:14:52 ... we're gonna make mistakes. This thing is so complicated-

Lex Fridman 1:14:54 Yeah.

Magatte Wade 1:14:54 ... we're gonna make mistakes, so which means my ass is on the line.

Lex Fridman 1:14:57 Yes.

Magatte Wade 1:14:58 So anyway, so, so if the tax code was so simple, straightforward like it is maybe in co- in, uh, Texas where up 'til a threshold you owe me nothing. Go online, five minutes. Fill out your taxes. You're, you're compliant. Keep bring- keep building your business with us 'cause that's what we need from you. If you made it so easy and straightforward then, you know what, that's when you get all of these people, Lex, that you're talking about saying, "You know what? My name is Aminata and I live in the middle of nowhere Senegal, but you know what? I've got this great idea which is for this really hot, nice hot sauce that I know the Americans are gonna love. I'm hearing that hot sauce is a big thing. Let me bring it to them." But everything is there for you to jump into the ring of entrepreneurship.

Lex Fridman 1:15:44 Yeah.

Magatte Wade 1:15:44 You don't have to know someone like my god, you don't have to even have the ability to sell yourself maybe like I can sometimes. You are someone with a great idea, you're willing to work hard for it and pour everything you got into it. Guess what? It's there. You can get into the race.

Lex Fridman 1:16:05 You can be a dreamer and you can be a dreamer in a rural little village and then, that, that has ripple effects throughout the entire country. Young kids growing up, you know, "I want to be the next X."

Magatte Wade 1:16:15 Yes.

Lex Fridman 1:16:16 Whatever.

Magatte Wade 1:16:16 Yes.

Lex Fridman 1:16:16 And it doesn't have to be, you know, the next Steve Jobs. That, that seems really far, far away.

Magatte Wade 1:16:22 It's at all levels. It's at all levels. You, you create, uh, local heroes because-

Lex Fridman 1:16:26 Yeah.

Magatte Wade 1:16:26 ... because, um, because representation matters.

Lex Fridman 1:16:29 Yes.

Magatte Wade 1:16:29 Right? So, and we are so badly in need of that. And so, um, so that's what all the things that have been stolen from us as long as things remain the same. So Lex, once I found out that basically at the end of the day the answer is economic freedom and that when it comes to that the indexes, economic indexes that measure that, whether it's the Doing Business Index Ranking of the World Bank or the Fraser Economic Freedom Index of, uh, the Heritage Foundation. When you look at all of those, um, indexes and others, what do they have in common? One after another they show you that it is harder to do business in almost anywhere in Subsaharan Africa than it is per se anywhere in Scandinavia. So it is telling you that Scandinavian nations that socialist Americans tend to love so much, and take as an example over there too by showing you that they don't understand what's going on really in Scandinavia, that, uh, Scandinavia is more capitalist. Scandinavian nations are more capitalist than almost any Subsaharan African nations.

Lex Fridman 1:17:32 Ultimately, the political systems actually don't even matter nearly as much as the private sector al- being able to operate the machinery of capitalism.

Magatte Wade 1:17:44 There you go. There you go. There you go. And it's almost like, um, like I said, it's almost like its own little widget within, within it. You can have whatever type of society you wanna prac- you wanna, uh, exercise at whatever level you want to, but if you're serious about becoming a low, a mid, a middle too high-income nation, there's no other pathway that we know of at this point. And you know what made me super excited about that beyond having finally found my answer? I have to tell you, when I found that answer, I literally fell to my knees. It was a typ- the type of feeling that, you know, if something is not well with you, whether it's physical or mental. Something is not well, you're not well and you go round and you go to the so-called specialist, some of them, you know, but you, you're going around for years, going around trying to get help for your ailment. And here they don't know, here they tell you things that you can't tell why but you just know it's not true. There this, there that, and it's, it's going on for years after year after year and finally you meet this one person and boom it's there. Not only the liberation-... but also this whole new world that comes with it. You know? I'm still, I'm still ill, but guess what? There's a path forward. I, we know that. I have, I'm gonna have a lot of work to do. But there's hope.

Lex Fridman 1:19:20 Yeah.

Magatte Wade 1:19:20 Right?

Lex Fridman 1:19:20 And you're the, uh, the beacon of hope, actually, for a lot of people in that part of the world. And that's, those beacons-

Magatte Wade 1:19:26 I-

Lex Fridman 1:19:26 ... are actually really necessary. So not only is there hope, but you can, uh, become, I mean, the beacon for your people. Your, your, your home. This, this power that you see, that you feel all around to become, uh, to escape the feeling of being trapped.

Lex Fridman 1:19:46 I- is there a device you can give-

Magatte Wade 1:19:49 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 1:19:49 ... to people that, to, uh, young girls and boys dreaming somewhere in Africa-

Magatte Wade 1:19:56 Yes.

Lex Fridman 1:19:57 ... of how to change the world?

Magatte Wade 1:19:58 That's right. And by the way, I wanna say, there are bigger beacons, there are better beacons than me. I just happen to be someone who has the chance of talking to you right now. Uh, and one of my goals is to open the same doors that were opened for me, because together, our voice (sighs) there's such amazing stories out there. And, um, so bigger beacons, better beacons out there. One thing here for me, the reason why I do what I'm doing right now, and it's almost to the point of self-destructing my own health, I feel invested with such the mission of I have been afforded the truth, so it is my moral duty to try to take it around. I know I sound... People sometimes they say, "When I listen to you, I, I feel like I'm, I'm talking to a, to a priest." And I'm like, "Because the gospel (laughs) I received the gos-" So anyway, but the thing is, Lex, who tells you these things to this day? When they talk about the poverty of Africa, what do they talk about? They're sitting there and telling you, "Oh, yeah, it's because of colonialism. It's because of race- racism. It's because of imperialism. It's because they're stealing, you know, raw material. Blah, blah, blah." Is, is any of those culp-,