Magnus Carlsen: Greatest Chess Player of All Time | Lex Fridman Podcast #315

1. 0:00 – 0:51

   Introduction

   1. LFLex Fridman0:00

      The following is a conversation with Magnus Carlsen, the number one ranked chess player in the world, and widely considered to be one of, if not the greatest chess player of all time. The camera on Magnus died 20 minutes into the conversation. Most folks still just listened to the audio through a podcast player anyway, but if you're watching this on YouTube or Spotify, we did our best to still make it interesting by adding relevant image overlays. I mess things up sometimes, like in this case, but I'm always working hard to improve. I hope you understand. Thank you for your patience and support along the way. I love you all. This is the Lex Fridman Podcast. To support it, please check out our sponsors in the description. And now dear friends, here's Magnus Carlsen.

2. 0:51 – 7:57

   Greatest soccer player of all time

   1. LFLex Fridman0:52

      You're considered by many to be one of the greatest, if not the greatest chess players of all time, but you're also one of the best fantasy football, AKA soccer, competitors in the world. Plus recently picking up poker and, uh, competing at a world-class level. So before chess, let's talk football and greatness. Uh, you're a Real Madrid fan, so let me ask you the ridiculous big question. Who do you think is the greatest football, AKA soccer, player of all time? Can you make the case for Messi? Can you make the case for Cristiano Ronaldo, Pele, Maradona? Does someb- anybody jump to mind?

   2. MCMagnus Carlsen1:28

      No, I think it's pretty hard to make a case for anybody else-

   3. LFLex Fridman1:33

      Uh-oh.

   4. MCMagnus Carlsen1:33

      ... u- than Messi for his, uh, for his all-around game. And, uh, uh, frankly, like, my Real Madrid fandom sort of, uh, predates the Ronaldo era, era, uh, the s- the second Ronaldo, not, not, not the first one. So I always liked Ronaldo, but I always kind of thought that Messi was, uh, was, uh, better. Uh, and, um, I went to quite a number of, uh, Madrid games, and they've always been super helpfulful to me down there. The only thing is that, like, they asked me... They were gonna do an interview, and they were gonna ask me who my favorite player was, and, um, I said somebody else. I s- I think I said Isco at that point, and I was like, "Okay, take two." Now, you say Ronaldo.

   5. LFLex Fridman2:19

      (laughs)

   6. MCMagnus Carlsen2:19

      So for them, it was, um, it was very important, but it wasn't, wasn't that huge to, um, uh, to me.

   7. LFLex Fridman2:26

      So Messi over Maradona?

   8. MCMagnus Carlsen2:29

      Yeah, but it's... I think it... Just like with chess, it's hard to compare eras. Um, obviously, the improvements in football have been, like, in, in technique and such, have been even greater than they have been in, in, in chess. But it's, um, it's always, um, it's always a weirdis- weird discussion, uh, to have.

   9. LFLex Fridman2:49

      But just as a fan, what do you think is beautiful about the game? What defines greatness? Is it... You know, with Messi, one, he's really good at finishing, two, very good at assists, like, three, there's just magic. It's just beautiful to see the play, so it's not just about the finishing. There's some... It's like Maradona's Hand of God. There's some creativity on the pitch. Is, is that important or is it very important to get the World Cups and the big championships and that kind of stuff?

   10. MCMagnus Carlsen3:19

       I think the World Cup is pretty, pretty overrated seeing as-

   11. LFLex Fridman3:23

       (laughs)

   12. MCMagnus Carlsen3:23

       ... um, as it's, uh, such a small sample size. So-

   13. LFLex Fridman3:27

       (laughs)

   14. MCMagnus Carlsen3:28

       ... uh, uh, it sort of annoys me a-always when, you know, titles are always, um, always appreciated so much, um, even though, uh, that particular title can be, can be a lot of, uh, lot of, um, luck or at least some, at least some luck. Um, uh, so I do appreciate, um, the statistics a bit. And all the statistics say that Messi is the best, uh, finisher of all time, which (laughs) I think helps a lot. Um, and then there's the intangibles as well.

   15. LFLex Fridman4:01

       The flip side of that is the small sample size is what really creates the magic. It's so r- it's just like the Olympics. You, you b- basically train your whole life for this. You live your whole life for this, and it's a rare moment. One mistake, and it's all over. That's... For some reason, a lot of people either break under that pressure or rise up under that pressure. You don't, you don't admire the magic of that?

   16. MCMagnus Carlsen4:28

       No, I, I do. Uh, I just think that, like, rising and... through pressure and breaking under, under the pressure is often a really oversimplified, like, uh-

   17. LFLex Fridman4:40

       Yeah.

   18. MCMagnus Carlsen4:40

       ... take on, on what's, um, on what's happening. (laughs)

   19. LFLex Fridman4:44

       (laughs) We were... Yeah, we do romanticize the game.

   20. MCMagnus Carlsen4:46

       Yeah.

   21. LFLex Fridman4:46

       Well, let me ask you another ridiculous question and another. You're also a fan of basketball.

   22. MCMagnus Carlsen4:50

       Yes.

   23. LFLex Fridman4:52

       (laughs) Let me ask the GOAT question. The... Uh, you know, I'm biased because, uh, I went to high school in Chicago, uh, you know, Chicago Bulls during the, the Michael Jordan era. Uh, l- let me ask the, the Jordan versus LeBron James question. Let's, let's continue on this thread of greatness. Which one do you pick? Or somebody else? Magic Johnson?

   24. MCMagnus Carlsen5:13

       So I'll give you a completely different answer.

   25. LFLex Fridman5:15

       Uh-oh.

   26. MCMagnus Carlsen5:16

       Um, depending on my mood and depending who, on whom I talk to, I pick one of, one of the two, and then I try to argue for that.

   27. LFLex Fridman5:24

       It's a quantum mechanical thing. Well, ca- can you... What... Again, what, what would... Uh, if you were to argue for either one, statistically, I think LeBron James is going to surpass Jordan.

   28. MCMagnus Carlsen5:38

       Yeah. No doubt.

   29. LFLex Fridman5:39

       And so, again, there's a debate between-

   30. MCMagnus Carlsen5:45

       Unquantifiable greatness. No, that... I mean, that's the whole, that's the whole debate.
3. 7:57 – 17:10

   Magnus's approach to chess

   1. MCMagnus Carlsen7:57

      think about.

   2. LFLex Fridman7:57

      So on chess, let's, uh, zoom out. If you break down your approach to chess, when you're at your best, uh, what, w- what do you think, um, what do you think contributes to that approach? Is it memory recall, specific lines and positions? Is it intuition? How much of it is intuition? How much of it is pure calculation? How much of it is messing with the strategy of the opponent, so the game theory aspect, in terms of what contributes to the highest level of play that, um, that you do?

   3. MCMagnus Carlsen8:30

      I think the answer differs a little bit now from what it did eight years ago. For instance, like I've, I feel like I've had like two peaks in, in my career in 2014, uh, well, 2013, 2014, and also twe- in 2019. And in those years, I w- I was very different, um, in terms of, um, of my strength, strengths. Uh, specifically in 2019, I benefited a lot from opening preparation. Uh, while in 2013, 2014, I mostly tried to avoid my, uh, opponent's, uh, preparation, rather than that being a, um, being a strength. So, uh, I'm, I'm mentioning that also because it's something, something you didn't, um, didn't mention. I think, like, my intuitive understanding of chess has, over those years, always been a little bit better than the others, even though it has evolved as well. Um, certainly there are, there are things that I understand now that I didn't understand back then, but that's not only for, for me, that's for, um, for others as well. Um, I was younger back then, so I played with more energy, which meant that I could play better in long, drawn-out, uh, games, um, which was also a necessity for me, 'cause I didn't, I couldn't, couldn't beat people in the, in the openings. Um, but it, in terms of calculation, that's always been a weird issue for me. Like, I've always been really, really, um, bad at solving exercises in chess. Like, that's been, like, a blind spot for me. First of all, I found it hard to concentrate on them, um, and to look, uh, to look deep enough.

   4. LFLex Fridman10:38

      So this is like a puzzle, a position-

   5. MCMagnus Carlsen10:40

      Yeah. Yeah.

   6. LFLex Fridman10:41

      ... mate in X-

   7. MCMagnus Carlsen10:42

      I mean, one thing is mate, but find the best move.

   8. LFLex Fridman10:45

      Okay.

   9. MCMagnus Carlsen10:45

      That's generally the exercise. Like, find the best move, find the best line.

   10. LFLex Fridman10:50

       You find, (laughs) you just don't connect with it.

   11. MCMagnus Carlsen10:52

       Usually, like, you have to, to look, look deep. And then when I get these lines during the game, I very often find the, the, the right solution, even though, um, even though, um, it's not still, um, uh, the best part of my game, um, to, to calculate very, very deeply.

   12. LFLex Fridman11:17

       But it doesn't feel like calculation, you're saying, in terms of-

   13. MCMagnus Carlsen11:20

       No, it d- it does sometimes, but for me, it's more, like, I'm at the board trying to find, trying to find the solution. And I understand, like, the training at home is, like, trying a little bit to, to replicate that. Like, you give somebody half an hour, um, in a position, like, in this instance, you might have thought for half an hour if you play the game, but I just, I just cannot do it. Uh, one thing I know that I am good at, though, is, um, calculating short lines, uh, 'cause I calculate them, them well, I'm good at seeing, um, little details, and I'm also much better than, than most at, uh, evaluating, uh, which I think is something that sets me, uh, sets me, uh, apart from, from others.

   14. LFLex Fridman12:11

       So evaluating specific position?... if I, if I make this move and the position changes in this way, is this the ri- a step in the right direction, like in a big picture way?

   15. MCMagnus Carlsen12:24

       Yeah. Like, you calculate a few moves ahead and then you evaluate. Because a lot of, a lot of time, a lot of the times, you cannot, um, the branches become so big that you cannot calculate everything. So you have to-

   16. LFLex Fridman12:36

       Like a fog.

   17. MCMagnus Carlsen12:37

       Yeah. So you have to, you have to make evaluations based on, you know, based mas- mostly on, uh, knowledge and, and intuition. And somehow, I seem to do that, uh, pretty well.

   18. LFLex Fridman12:49

       When you say you're good at short lines, what's that? What's, what's short?

   19. MCMagnus Carlsen12:53

       That's usually, like, lines of, um, two to four moves each.

   20. LFLex Fridman12:59

       Okay. So that, that's directly applicable to even faster games like blitz chess and so on?

   21. MCMagnus Carlsen13:04

       Yeah. Um, blitz is, uh, a lot about cal- calculating forced lines. So those, you can see pretty clearly that the players who struggle at blitz, who are great at classical, are those who rely on deep calculating ability 'cause you simply ha- don't have time for, for that in blitz. You have to calculate quickly and rely a lot on intuition.

   22. LFLex Fridman13:29

       Can you try to, I know it's really difficult, can you try to talk through what's actually being visualized in your head? Is there, is there a visual component?

   23. MCMagnus Carlsen13:39

       Yeah, no, I just visualize the board. I mean, the board is in, is in, is in my head.

   24. LFLex Fridman13:44

       Two-dimensional?

   25. MCMagnus Carlsen13:46

       My interpretation is that it's, it is two, uh, two-dimensional.

   26. LFLex Fridman13:50

       Like, what color is, is it brown-tinted? Is it black? Is it, uh... Like, what's the theme? Is it a big board, small board? Are the, uh, what do the pawns look like? (laughs) Or is it more in the space of concepts? Like, uh, is it-

   27. MCMagnus Carlsen14:05

       Yeah. The, the, there are, there aren't a lot of colors. It's, it's mostly, uh...

   28. LFLex Fridman14:09

       (laughs) So what is it? Queen's gambit

4. 17:10 – 21:12

   Game 6 of the 2021 World Chess Championship

   1. MCMagnus Carlsen18:16

      ... and, and also, I, I knew that. Uh, I knew that- didn't know that position specifically, but I knew that it had to be a draw. So for me, it was about staying alert, first of all. Trying to look for the best way to put my pieces. Uh, but, but, yeah, those end games are a bit, they're a bit unusual. They don't happen too often. So what I'm usually good at is I'm using my, my strength that I, I also use in, in middle games, is that I, um, I value it well and I calculate short variations quite, uh-

   2. LFLex Fridman18:56

      Even for the end game, short variations matter?

   3. MCMagnus Carlsen18:58

      Yes, it does matter in some simpler end games. Yeah. But also, like, there are these theoretical end games with very few pieces, like rook knights, uh, and two pawns versus queens, but a lot of end games are simply defined by the queens being exchanged.

   4. LFLex Fridman19:16

      Mm-hmm.

   5. MCMagnus Carlsen19:16

      And there are a lot of other pieces left. And then it's usually not brute force. It's usually more of, um, understanding and evaluation than, than, than I can use my, my strengths, um, very well.

   6. LFLex Fridman19:30

      Why are you so damn good at the end game? Isn't there a lot of moves from when the end game starts to when the end game finishes? And you have a few pieces and you have to figure out, it's like a sequence of little games that happens, right? Like little pattern... Like, how, how does being able to evaluate a single position lead you to evaluate a long sequence of positions that eventually lead to a checkmate?

   7. MCMagnus Carlsen19:53

      Well, I think if you evaluate well at the start, you know what plans to go for, and then usually the play from there is, is often pretty simple. Let's say you understand how to arrange your pieces, and often also how to arrange your pawns early in the end game, then that makes all, all the, um, all the difference. And after that is, like, what we call technique. Of- very often that it's... Technique basically just mean, means that, um, moves are simple and, uh, these are moves that, you know, a lot of players could, could make. Not only, not only the very strongest ones. These are moves that are kind of understood and, and known.

   8. LFLex Fridman20:45

      So, with evaluation, you're just constantly improving a little bit, and that just lead to suffocating the position, and then eventually to the win, as long as you're doing the evaluation well one step at a time?

   9. MCMagnus Carlsen20:56

      To some extent. Also, yeah, as I said, like, if you evaluate it better and thus accumulated some, some small advantages, then you can, you can often make your, your, your life pretty easy, uh, towards the end of the end game.

5. 21:12 – 33:35

   Chess openings

   1. MCMagnus Carlsen21:12

   2. LFLex Fridman21:12

      So you said in, uh, 2019, sort of the second phase of why you're so damn good (laughs) , you, uh, you did a lot of opening preparation. What's the goal for you of, uh, the opening game of chess? Is it to throw the opponent off from any prepared lines? Is there something you could put into words about why you're so damn good at the openings?

   3. MCMagnus Carlsen21:36

      Again, these things have changed a lot over time. Uh, back in Kasparov's days, for instance, um, he very often got huge advantages from the opening as, as whites.

   4. LFLex Fridman21:49

      Can you explain why?

   5. MCMagnus Carlsen21:51

      There were several reasons for, for that. First of all, he, he worked harder. He was more creative in finding ideas. He was able to look places others didn't. Uh, also, he had a very strong team of people who had specific strengths in, in openings that he could use.

   6. LFLex Fridman22:11

      So they would come up with ideas and he would, he would integrate those ideas into the-

   7. MCMagnus Carlsen22:15

      Yeah, and he would also very often come up with them, them himself. Also, uh, at the start, he had, um, some of the first computer engines to, uh, to work, um, for him to, to find his ideas, to look deeper, to verify th- his ideas. He was better at using them than a lot of others. Now, I feel like the playing field is a lot more level. There are both computer engines, neural networks, and hybrid engines available to practically anybody. So it's, it's much harder to find ideas now that, um, that actually, like, give you an advantage with the w- the, the white pieces. I mean, people don't expect to find those ideas anymore. Now, it's all about finding ideas that are missed by the, uh, engines. Either they're missed entirely or they're missed at low depth. Uh, and using them to, you know, gain some advantage in the sense that you have more, more knowledge. And, uh, you know, it's also good to know that usually, these are not complete bluffs. These are like semi-bluffs, so that you know that even if your opponent makes all the right moves, you can still make a draw. And also, at the start of 2019, neural networks had just started to be a thing in, in, in chess. And, uh, I'm not entirely sure, but there were at least some players in, even in the top events, who you could see did not use them or did not use them in the right way, and then you could gain a huge advantage. Because a lot of positions, they were being evaluated differently by the neural networks than traditional chess engines because they simply think about, uh, chess in a very, very, um, different way.Short answer is, these days it's all about surprising your, your opponent and taking it into position where you have more, more knowledge.

   8. LFLex Fridman24:29

      So, is there some sense in which it's okay to make "sub-optimal" moves to-

   9. MCMagnus Carlsen24:34

      No, but you have to. I mean, you, you have to, because the best moves have been analyzed to, to death, mostly.

   10. LFLex Fridman24:42

       So, that's a kind of, when you say semi-bluff, that's a kind of sacrifice. You're, you're sacrificing the optimal move, the optimal position so that you can take the opponent. I mean, that's a game theoretic sense.

   11. MCMagnus Carlsen24:55

       Yeah.

   12. LFLex Fridman24:55

       You take the opponent to something they didn't prepare well.

   13. MCMagnus Carlsen24:59

       Yeah. Uh, but you could also look at it another way, that regardless, like, if you turn on, whatever engine you turn on, like if you try to analyze either from the starting position or the starting position of some popular opening, like if you, um, analyze long enough, it's always gonna end up in a draw. So (laughs) in, in that sense, you may not be going for like the objective, the tries that are objectively the most difficult to draw against. But, you know, you are trying to look at least at, at the less obvious paths.

   14. LFLex Fridman25:35

       How much do you use engines? Do you use Leela, Stockfish in your preparations?

   15. MCMagnus Carlsen25:42

       My team does. Personally, I try not to use them too much on, on my own, because I know that when I play, you can't, obviously cannot have help from, from engines. And often, I feel like often having imperfect or knowledge about a position, uh, or some engine knowledge can be a lot worse than, than having no knowledge. Uh, so I try to look at engines as little as possible.

   16. LFLex Fridman26:13

       So yeah, so your team uses them for research, for generation of ideas.

   17. MCMagnus Carlsen26:17

       Yeah.

   18. LFLex Fridman26:17

       But you are, uh, relying primarily on your human resources. (laughs)

   19. MCMagnus Carlsen26:23

       Yeah, for sure.

   20. LFLex Fridman26:24

       You can evaluate well, you don't lean...

   21. MCMagnus Carlsen26:26

       Yeah, no, I can evaluate as a hu- as a human. I can know what they find unpleasant and, and so on. And it's very often the case, for me to some extent, but a lot for, for others, that you arrive in a position and your opponent plays a move that you didn't expect. And, you know, if you didn't expect it, you know that it's probably not a great move.

   22. LFLex Fridman26:51

       Mm-hmm.

   23. MCMagnus Carlsen26:51

       (laughs) Since it hasn't been expected by, by the engine. But if it's not, if it's not obvious why it's not a good move, it's usually very, very hard to figure it out. And so then looking at the engines doesn't ne- necessarily help because at that point, like you're facing a human, you have to, to sort of think as a human.

   24. LFLex Fridman27:14

       I was chatting with Demis Hassabis of DeepMind a couple of days ago, and he asked me to ask you about what you first felt when you saw the, the play of AlphaZero. Like interesting ideas, any creativity. Um, did you feel fear that the machine is taking over? Did you, were you inspired? (laughs) And any, what was going on in your mind and heart?

   25. MCMagnus Carlsen27:37

       Funny thing about Demis is he, he doesn't play chess at all, uh, like, uh, like an AI.

   26. LFLex Fridman27:44

       (laughs)

   27. MCMagnus Carlsen27:44

       Uh, he plays in a very, very human way. No, uh, I was hugely inspired when I, I saw the games at first. Um, and in terms of man versus machine, I mean, that battle was, was kind of lost for humans even before I entered top level chess. Um, so that's never been an issue, uh, for me. I never, never liked playing against computers much anyway. So, so that's completely fine. But it was amazing to see how they "thought about chess" in such a different way and in a way that you could mistake for creativity.

   28. LFLex Fridman28:27

       Mistake for crea- strong words. Uh, is it wild to you how many sacrifices it's willing to make that like sacrifice pieces and then wait for prolonged periods of time before doing anything with that? Is that, is that weird to you that that's part of chess also?

   29. MCMagnus Carlsen28:42

       No, it's one of the things that's hardest to replicate as a human as well, or at least from my playing, playing style, that usually when I, I sacrifice, I feel like I'm, you know, I don't do it unless I feel like I'm getting something like tangible, uh, in, in return and, um...

   30. LFLex Fridman29:03

       Like a few moves down the line you can see it.
6. 33:35 – 38:37

   Chess960: Fischer random chess

   1. MCMagnus Carlsen33:35

      I mean, speaking of games and all that, I'm also interested to play other, other games like Chess960 or Fischerandom as they call it, like that you have 960 maps instead of one.

   2. LFLex Fridman33:50

      Yeah, so for people who don't know, Fischerandom chess, Chess960 is-

   3. MCMagnus Carlsen33:54

      Yeah, that basically just means that the pawns are in the same way and the major pieces are, uh, distributed randomly on the, on the last rank. Only that there have to be obviously bishops of opposite color and the king has to be in between the rooks, so that you can castle both ways.

   4. LFLex Fridman34:12

      Oh, you can still castle in, in Chess960?

   5. MCMagnus Carlsen34:13

      You can still castle, but that makes it interesting. So you still have, it still castles in the same way. So let's say the king is like here.

   6. LFLex Fridman34:22

      Yeah, well, yeah, what happens in that case?

   7. MCMagnus Carlsen34:24

      Yeah, like let's say the king is in the corner. Um, so to, to castle this side, you ha- you have to clear a whole lot of pieces. Um-

   8. LFLex Fridman34:33

      Well, what would-

   9. MCMagnus Carlsen34:34

      But the king-

   10. LFLex Fridman34:34

       ... castling look like though?

   11. MCMagnus Carlsen34:35

       No, the king would j- go here and the rook would go there.

   12. LFLex Fridman34:38

       Oh, okay.

   13. MCMagnus Carlsen34:38

       Um, and that's happened in my games as well. Like, I forgot about castling, uh, and I've been like attacking a king over here, and then all of a sudden, it (laughs) escapes to the other side. I think, um, I think Fischer chess is, is good that it, it's, the maps will generally be worse than regular chess. Like, I think the starting position is as close to ideal for creating a competitive game as possible. But they will still be, like, interesting and diverse enough that you can play very, um, very interesting games.

   14. LFLex Fridman35:18

       So when you say maps, there's 960 different options, and like what fraction of that creates interesting games at the highest level? And th- this is something that a lot of people are curious about, because, uh, when you challenge a great chess player like yourself to, um, to look at a random starting position, that feels like it pushes you to play pure chess versus memorizing lines-

   15. MCMagnus Carlsen35:42

       Oh, yeah, for sure.

   16. LFLex Fridman35:43

       ... or that kind of stuff.

   17. MCMagnus Carlsen35:43

       Oh, for sure, but that's, that's the whole idea.

   18. LFLex Fridman35:45

       Yeah.

   19. MCMagnus Carlsen35:45

       That's what you want and, uh-

   20. LFLex Fridman35:47

       How hard is it to play? I mean, can you talk about what, what it feels like to you to play with a random starting position? Is there some like intuition you've been building up?

   21. MCMagnus Carlsen35:55

       It's very, very different. And I mean, understandably, engines have an even greater advantage in 960 than they have in, in classical chess. No, it's, it's super interesting, uh, and that's why also I really wish that we, uh, played more classical chess, like long games, four to seven hours in, in, um, Fischerandom chess, Chess960, because then you really need, you really need that time.... even on the first moves. What, what usually happens is that you get 15 minutes before the game, you, you're getting told the position 15 min- minutes before the game. And then you, uh, you can think about it li- a little bit, even, you know, check the c- computer. But that's all the time you have. But then you really need to figure it out then. Like, some of the positions obviously are a lot more interesting in, than the others. In some of them, it appears that like if you don't play symmetrically at the start, then you're probably gonna be in a pretty bad, bad position.

   22. LFLex Fridman37:03

       What do you mean? With the pawns, or-

   23. MCMagnus Carlsen37:05

       With the pawns, yeah.

   24. LFLex Fridman37:06

       Why, why-

   25. MCMagnus Carlsen37:07

       So, so that's the thing about, that's the thing about chess though. So let's say white opens with E4, which is, which has always been the most played move. There are many ways to meet that, but the, the most solid ways of playing has always been the symmetrical response.

   26. LFLex Fridman37:23

       Yeah.

   27. MCMagnus Carlsen37:23

       Uh, with E5, and then there's the, the Ruy Lopez, there's um, there's the Petrov opening and, and, and so on. And if you just banned symmetry on the first move in chess, you would get more interesting games. (laughs)

   28. LFLex Fridman37:37

       Oh, interesting.

   29. MCMagnus Carlsen37:38

       Uh, or you'd, you'd get more decisive, um, decisive games. So that's the good thing about chess, is that we've played it so long that we've actually devised non-symmetrical openings that are also fairly equal.

   30. LFLex Fridman37:52

       Mm-hmm.
7. 38:37 – 41:22

   Chess variants

   1. MCMagnus Carlsen38:37

   2. LFLex Fridman38:37

      Uh, is there any other kind of variations that are interesting to you?

   3. MCMagnus Carlsen38:41

      Oh, yeah. There are, there are several. So no-castling chess has been, uh, ha- has been promoted by former w- world champion Vladimir Kramnik. There have been a few tournaments with that, not any that I've participated in though. Um, I kind of like it. Also, my coach uses like non-castling engines quite a bit to analyze re- regular positions to just to get a different, different perspective. Um-

   4. LFLex Fridman39:13

      So, so castling is like a defensive thing. So if you remove castling, it forces you to be more offensive. Is that why? Or-

   5. MCMagnus Carlsen39:19

      Yeah, it just... Yeah, for, for, for sure. Um-

   6. LFLex Fridman39:23

      It seems like a tiny little difference.

   7. MCMagnus Carlsen39:25

      I, I think it, um, no-castling probably forces you to be a little bit more defensive at the start, or I would guess so.

   8. LFLex Fridman39:33

      Mm-hmm.

   9. MCMagnus Carlsen39:33

      Because you cannot suddenly escape with the, um, with, with the kings. It, it's gonna make the game a bit slower at the start, but, uh, I feel like eventually it's gonna, um, uh, it's gonna make the more, games more, um, uh, well, less drawish for, for sure. Uh, then you have some weirder variants like, um, where the pawns can move both, uh, diagonally and, um, and forward. Uh, and also you have self-capture chess, which is quite interesting. So the pawns can, or, um-

   10. LFLex Fridman40:08

       Suic- could commit suicide, or-

   11. MCMagnus Carlsen40:10

       Yeah, people can-

   12. LFLex Fridman40:11

       Why would that be a use- a good move?

   13. MCMagnus Carlsen40:13

       No, s- sometimes one of your pieces occupy a square. I mean, uh, let me just set up a position. Let's put, put it like, put it like this. Uh, for instance, like here, I mean, there are a lot of ways to checkmate for white, like this for instance, or there are several ways.

   14. LFLex Fridman40:31

       Mm-hmm.

   15. MCMagnus Carlsen40:32

       Um, but like this would be, uh, would be a checkmate.

   16. LFLex Fridman40:36

       (laughs) Oh, cool. Uh, for people who are just listening, yeah, basically you're bringing a knight close to the, the, the hole, the, the king, the queen and so on-

   17. MCMagnus Carlsen40:44

       Yeah.

   18. LFLex Fridman40:45

       ... and you replace the knight with a queen. Yeah, that's interesting. So you have like a, a front of, of, uh, pieces and then you just replace them with the, with the second lower piece.

   19. MCMagnus Carlsen40:54

       Yeah. Uh, like-

   20. LFLex Fridman40:55

       That's cool.

   21. MCMagnus Carlsen40:55

       ... I mean, that could be interesting. I think also maybe sometimes in... It's just clearance basically.

   22. LFLex Fridman41:00

       Yeah.

   23. MCMagnus Carlsen41:01

       It adds an extra element of, uh, of, of clearance. So, uh, I think there, there are many, um, many, uh, different variants. I don't think any of them are better than the one that has been played for, uh, at least 1,000 years, but, um, it's certainly interesting to, um, to see.

8. 41:22 – 49:48

   Elo Rating

   1. MCMagnus Carlsen41:22

   2. LFLex Fridman41:22

      (laughs) So one of your goals is to reach the FIDE Elo chess rating of 2900. Maybe you can comment on how is this rating calculated and what does it take to get there? Is it possible for a human being to get there?

   3. MCMagnus Carlsen41:36

      Basically, you play with a factor of, um, 10, uh, which means that if I were to play against, um, an opponent who's rated the same as me, I would be expected to score 50% obviously, and that means that I would win five points with a win, uh, lose five points with a draw, and then equal if I, if I draw. If your opponent is 200 points lower rated, you're expected to score 75%, and, and, and so on.

   4. LFLex Fridman42:05

      And you establish that rating by playing a lot of people and then it-

   5. MCMagnus Carlsen42:08

      Yeah.

   6. LFLex Fridman42:08

      ... slowly converges towards an estimate of how likely you are to win or lose against different people.

   7. MCMagnus Carlsen42:13

      Yeah. And, uh, my rating is obviously carried through thousands of, of games. Um, right now my rating is 2861, which is decent. Like I think that pretty much corresponds to, to the level I have at, at the moment. Uh, which means in order to reach 2900, I would have to...... either get better at chess, which I think is fairly hard to, to do, at least considerably better. So what I would need to do is try and optimize even more in terms of-

   8. LFLex Fridman42:54

      The match-ups, the games to play.

   9. MCMagnus Carlsen42:55

      ... preparations, everything. But not, not, not necessarily like selecting tournaments and so on, but, like just optimizing in terms of, of preparation, like making sure I'm, um, I never have any bad days, and-

   10. LFLex Fridman43:08

       You, so you basically can't lose.

   11. MCMagnus Carlsen43:10

       Yeah. I basically can't fuck up ever-

   12. LFLex Fridman43:13

       (laughs)

   13. MCMagnus Carlsen43:13

       ... uh, if I wanna, i- i- if, if I wanna reach that goal. And so I, I think reaching 2,900 is pretty unlikely. Um, the reason I've set the goal is to have something to, to play for, to have like, to have a motivation to actually try and, and be at my best when I play. Because otherwise, I'm playing to some extent mostly for, for fun these days (laughs) uh, in that I love to play. I love to try and win, but I don't have like a lot to, uh, I don't have a lot, a lot to prove or anything. Uh, but that gives me at least the motivation to try and, try and be at my best all, all the time, which I think is something to, um, to, to aim for. So at the moment, I'm quite enjoying that process of, um, uh, of trying to, um, yeah, trying to optimize.

   14. LFLex Fridman44:12

       What would you say motivates you in this now and in the years leading up to now, the love of winning or the fear of losing?

   15. MCMagnus Carlsen44:23

       So for the world championship, it's been fear of losing, for sure. Other tournaments, love of winning, uh, is a great, great factor. And that's why I also get more joy from, from winning most tournaments than I do for winning the world championship, because then it's mostly been a, a relief. I also think I enjoy winning more now than I did before, because I feel like I'm a little bit more relaxed now.

   16. LFLex Fridman44:52

       Mm-hmm.

   17. MCMagnus Carlsen44:53

       And, um, I also know that it's, you know, it's not gonna last forever. So every, every little win, I, I appreciate, um, appreciate a lot more now. And, and yeah, in terms of fear, fear of losing, like that's a huge reason why I'm not gonna play the world championship, because, uh, I, it really didn't, didn't give me, give me a lot of joy. It, it really was all about avoiding losing.

   18. LFLex Fridman45:17

       Why is it though the world championship really makes you feel this way? The anxiety... So, and when you say losing, do you mean not just a match, but like every single position, like a blunder, like a fear of a blunder?

   19. MCMagnus Carlsen45:31

       No, it's j- it's... No, I mean, the blunder is okay. Like when I sit down at the board, then it's, it's mostly been fine.

   20. LFLex Fridman45:36

       Mm-hmm.

   21. MCMagnus Carlsen45:36

       Because then I, then I'm focused on-

   22. LFLex Fridman45:38

       Got it.

   23. MCMagnus Carlsen45:39

       ... then I'm focused on the game and I know, I know that I can play the game. It's the time like in between, like knowing that, you know, I feel like losing is not an option, because it's the world championship. And because in a world championship, there are two players. There's a, there's a winner and a loser. If I don't win a random tournament that I play, then, you know, I'm usually, it depends on the tournament, I might be disappointed for sure. Might even be pretty pissed. But ultimately, you know, you go onto the next one. With the world championship, you don't go o- onto the next one. It's like, it's years.

   24. LFLex Fridman46:17

       Yeah.

   25. MCMagnus Carlsen46:18

       And it also has been like, it's been a core part of my identity for a while now, that I am world champion. And so there's not an option of, of losing that.

   26. LFLex Fridman46:31

       Yeah. Yeah. There's a, you're gonna have to, at least for a couple of years, carry the, the weight of having lost. You're the former world champion now if you lose, versus the current world champion. There are certain sports that create that anxiety and others that don't. For example, I think UFC, like mixed martial arts are a little better with losing. It's understood, like everybody loses. Uh, but there's-

   27. MCMagnus Carlsen47:00

       Not everybody though.

   28. LFLex Fridman47:02

       Not everybody, not everybody, not everybody (laughs) . Yes. Khabib entered the chat. Uh (laughs) . But in boxing there is like that extra pressure of like maintaining the championship. I mean, maybe you could say the same thing about the, the UFC as well. So for you personally, for a person who loves chess, the first time you won the world championship, that was, that was the big, that was the thing that was fun.

   29. MCMagnus Carlsen47:28

       Yeah. Um-

   30. LFLex Fridman47:28

       And then everything after is like stressful.
9. 49:48 – 1:14:00

   World Chess Championship

   1. LFLex Fridman49:48

      the best chess player in the world, and you not playing the world championship really makes the world championship not seem important, or, I mean, there's an argument to be made for that. Um, is there anything you would like to see FIDE change about the world championship that would make it more fun for you and better for the game of chess, period, for everybody involved?

   2. MCMagnus Carlsen50:10

      So I think 12 games, or now 14 games, that there is for the world championship is a fairly- fairly low sample size. If you want to determine who the best player is, or at least the best player in that particular matchup, you need more- more games. And I- I think, to some extent, if you're gonna have a world champion and call him the best players- you- best player, you've got to make sure that the format increases the chance of finding- finding the best player. So I think having more games, and if you're gonna have a lot more games, then you need to- then you need to decrease the time control a bit, which in turn, I think, is also a good thing, because in very long time controls with deep preparation, you can sort of mask a lot of your deficiencies as- as- as a chess player, um, with, uh, because you have a lot of time to- to think and to defend and also, yeah, you have deep preparation. Um, so I think those would be, for me to play, um, those would be the- the main- the main, um, the main things, more- more games and- and less time.

   3. LFLex Fridman51:24

      So you wanna see more games and rules that emphasize pure chess?

   4. MCMagnus Carlsen51:30

      Yeah, but already less time emphasize- emphasizes pure- pure chess, because, um, defensive techniques are- are much harder to execute with- with little time.

   5. LFLex Fridman51:42

      What do you think? Is there a sweet spot in terms of, are we talking about blitz? Is it how many minutes?

   6. MCMagnus Carlsen51:47

      I think blitz is a bit too fast.

   7. LFLex Fridman51:48

      Yeah.

   8. MCMagnus Carlsen51:48

      Um, to their credit, this was suggested by- by FIDE as well, for a start to have two games per day, and let's say you have 45 minutes, uh, a game, plus 15 or- or 30 seconds per move, that means that each sessions will probably be about, or a little less than two hours.

   9. LFLex Fridman52:09

      Yeah.

   10. MCMagnus Carlsen52:10

       That would be- would be a start. Also what- what we're playing in the tournament that I'm playing here in- in- in Miami, which is, um, four games a day, uh, with 15 minutes plus 10 seconds per move.

   11. LFLex Fridman52:23

       Oh.

   12. MCMagnus Carlsen52:24

       Those were- would be, um, more interesting than- than the one there is now. And I- I understand that there are a lot of traditions, people don't want to change the world championship, that's- that's all fine. I just think that, um, the world championship should do a better job of trying to reflect who- who's the best overall chess player.

   13. LFLex Fridman52:46

       So would you- would you say, like, i- if it's faster games, you'd probably be able to get a sample size of, like, over 20 games, 20, 30, 40? Do you think there's a number that's good over a long period of time?

   14. MCMagnus Carlsen52:58

       Well, I would prefer as many as possible.

   15. LFLex Fridman53:00

       So like 100?

   16. MCMagnus Carlsen53:02

       Um, yeah, but let's say you play 12 days, two games a day, you know, that's 24.

   17. LFLex Fridman53:09

       Yeah.

   18. MCMagnus Carlsen53:09

       I feel like that's already quite a bit better. You play like one black game, one white game each day.

   19. LFLex Fridman53:15

       Endurance-wise, that's okay?

   20. MCMagnus Carlsen53:17

       Yeah, I think that's fine. Like you will have free days as well. So I don't think that will be- will be a problem. Um, and also you have to prepare two sets of openings for each day, which makes it more difficult for the teams preparing.

   21. LFLex Fridman53:30

       Yeah.

   22. MCMagnus Carlsen53:30

       Which I think is also good.

   23. LFLex Fridman53:32

       Let me ask you a fun question. If, uh, Hikaru Nakamura was one of the two people, what, I guess, I apologize-

   24. MCMagnus Carlsen53:41

       Uh, yeah, he could have- he could have finished second.

   25. LFLex Fridman53:43

       Yeah.

   26. MCMagnus Carlsen53:43

       So he lost the last round of the candidates.

   27. LFLex Fridman53:45

       Yeah, and you, uh, put, maybe you can explain to me internet speak, copium, is something you tweeted. (laughs)

   28. MCMagnus Carlsen53:52

       Yeah.

   29. LFLex Fridman53:53

       (laughs) But if he- if he got second, wou- would you, uh, wou- would you- would you, (laughs) just to spite him still- still play the world championship? That's internet question, and when the internet asks, I must abide. The dude abides.

   30. MCMagnus Carlsen54:05

       Okay. (laughs) Yeah, sure. Thank you, internet. (laughs) . So after the last match, uh, I did an interview, uh, r- right after where I talked about the fact that I was unlikely to play the next one. I- I'd spoken privately to both family, friends, and of course also my chess team that this was likely going to be the last- the last match. Um, what happened was that right before the world championship match, there was this young player, Alireza Firouzja, he had a dramatic rise. He rose to second in the world rankings. He was 18 then, 9- he's 19 now. He qualified for the candidates, and it felt like there was like at least a half realistic possibility that-He could be the challenger for the next world championship. Uh, and that sort of lit a fire under me. Um-
10. 1:14:00 – 1:21:22

    Losing

    1. MCMagnus Carlsen1:14:00

    2. LFLex Fridman1:14:00

       What's been the toughest loss of your career that you remember? Would that be the World Championship match?

    3. MCMagnus Carlsen1:14:08

       Oh, yeah, for sure.

    4. LFLex Fridman1:14:09

       Can you take-

    5. MCMagnus Carlsen1:14:10

       Game eight, in 2016.

    6. LFLex Fridman1:14:12

       And who was it against?

    7. MCMagnus Carlsen1:14:13

       Against Karjakin, in New York.

    8. LFLex Fridman1:14:16

       Can you take it through the story of that game? Where were you before that game, in terms of game one through seven?

    9. MCMagnus Carlsen1:14:26

       Yeah, so game one and two, not much happened. Games three and four, I was winning in both of them. And normally I should definitely convert it both. I couldn't, partly due to good defense on his part, but mostly because I just, I messed up. And then after that games five, six and seven, not much happened. I was getting impatient at that point. Um, so for game eight, I was probably ready to take a little bit more risks than I had before, which I guess was insane, because I knew that he couldn't beat me unless I beat myself (laughs) . Like, he wasn't strong enough to outplay me.

    10. LFLex Fridman1:15:20

        And that was leading to impatience somehow, and impatience-

    11. MCMagnus Carlsen1:15:23

        No, because I knew that I was better.

    12. LFLex Fridman1:15:25

        Yeah.

    13. MCMagnus Carlsen1:15:26

        I knew that I was better. I knew that I just needed to win one game, and then the match is over.

    14. LFLex Fridman1:15:30

        Yeah.

    15. MCMagnus Carlsen1:15:30

        That's what happened in 2021 as well. Like, when I won the first game against Nepo, I knew that the match was over, unless I, like, fuck up royally, then he's not going to be able to beat me. So what happened was that I played a kind of an innocuous opening as white, just trying to get a game, trying to get him out of book as soon as possible. Then-

    16. LFLex Fridman1:15:52

        Okay. Can you elaborate? Innocuous, get him out of the book, wha-

    17. MCMagnus Carlsen1:15:57

        No, basically I set up pretty defensively as white. I wasn't really crossing into his half at the start at all. I was just, I played more like a system, more than like a concrete opening. So it was like, I'm going to set up my pieces this way. You can set them up however you want. And then later, where sort of the armies are going to meet. I'm not going to try and bother you at the start.

    18. LFLex Fridman1:16:20

        And that means you can have with as many pieces as possible, kind of pure chess in the middle game.

    19. MCMagnus Carlsen1:16:25

        Yeah, that's-

    20. LFLex Fridman1:16:26

        Without any of the lines-

    21. MCMagnus Carlsen1:16:29

        Yeah.

    22. LFLex Fridman1:16:29

        ... the standard lines in the opening.

    23. MCMagnus Carlsen1:16:31

        Exactly.

    24. LFLex Fridman1:16:32

        Okay.

    25. MCMagnus Carlsen1:16:32

        And so there was, at some point, a couple of exchanges, then some maneuvering, a little bit better. Then he was sort of equalizing, and then I started to take too many risks. And I was still sort of fine. Um, but then at some point I realized that I'd gone a bit too far and I had to be really careful. Then I just froze. I just completely froze. Uh-

    26. LFLex Fridman1:16:57

        Mentally? Like what?

    27. MCMagnus Carlsen1:16:58

        Yeah, mentally.

    28. LFLex Fridman1:16:58

        What happened? Do you think-

    29. MCMagnus Carlsen1:17:00

        I realized that, I mean, all the thoughts of, "I might lose this. What have I done? Why did I take so many risks? I knew that I could have drawn at any moment. Just be patient. Don't give him these opportunities."

    30. LFLex Fridman1:17:15

        What triggered that? Like face transition in your mind?
11. 1:21:22 – 1:28:12

    Day in the life

    1. LFLex Fridman1:21:22

       What's the perfect day in the life of Magnus Carlsen on a day of a big chess match? It doesn't have to be world championship. But if, if it, if it's a chess match you care about, what, uh, what time do you wake up? What do you eat?

    2. MCMagnus Carlsen1:21:37

       Uh, it depends on when the game is. But let's say the game is at 3:00. Uh, I'll probably wake up, uh, pretty late at about 11:00. Then I'll go for, go for a walk. Uh, might listen to some podcasts. Maybe I'll spend a little bit of time looking at some, you know, some NBA game from last night or whatever.

    3. LFLex Fridman1:22:04

       So, not chess related stuff?

    4. MCMagnus Carlsen1:22:05

       No, no, no, no. Uh, then I'll, I'll get back. I'll have big lunch, like usually, like a big omelet with a bunch of salad and stuff. Then go to the game, win like a very nice clean game. (laughs)

    5. LFLex Fridman1:22:20

       Mm-hmm. Perfect day.

    6. MCMagnus Carlsen1:22:22

       Just go back after, relax. Like, the, the things that make me the m- the happiest at tournaments is just having a good routine and, uh, feeling, feeling well. Um, I don't like it when too much is happening around me. So, the tournament that I came from now was, um, the Chess Olympiad, which is a team event.

    7. LFLex Fridman1:22:43

       Mm-hmm.

    8. MCMagnus Carlsen1:22:44

       So, w- we're Team Norway. We did horribly.

    9. LFLex Fridman1:22:48

       Yeah.

    10. MCMagnus Carlsen1:22:48

        Uh, I like, I did okay, but the team in general did, did horribly. Uh, and I-

    11. LFLex Fridman1:22:52

        Who won that, Italy? Or, uh...

    12. MCMagnus Carlsen1:22:54

        Uh, no, no. Italy beat us, but Uzbekistan won the end.

    13. LFLex Fridman1:22:58

        Okay.

    14. MCMagnus Carlsen1:22:58

        They, uh, were this amazing team of young players. It was really, it was really impressive. But the thing is, like we had a good camaraderie in the team. We had our meals together. We played a bit of football, went swimming. And I couldn't understand why things went wrong, and I still don't understand. But the thing is, for me, it was all very nice, but now I'm just so happy to be on my own at a tournament just to have my own routines, not see too many people.

    15. LFLex Fridman1:23:23

        Yeah.

    16. MCMagnus Carlsen1:23:24

        Otherwise, just have like a very small team of people that I see.

    17. LFLex Fridman1:23:28

        You are a kind of celebrity now. So, you know, people within the chess tournament and outside would recognize you, want to socialize, want to tell you about how much you mean to them, how much you inspire them, all that kind of stuff. Does that get in the way for you when you're, like, trying to really focus on, on the match? Are you able to, uh, block that? Like are you able to enjoy that, those little interactions and still keep your focus?

    18. MCMagnus Carlsen1:23:53

        Yeah. Uh, most of the time that's, uh, that's fine as long as it's not too much. But I have to admit, when I'm at home in Norway, like I rarely go out with like, without, um, big headphones (laughs) and something-

    19. LFLex Fridman1:24:10

        Oh, like a disguise? Oh.

    20. MCMagnus Carlsen1:24:11

        On my... No, not a-

    21. LFLex Fridman1:24:12

        Oh, just to block out the world.

    22. MCMagnus Carlsen1:24:13

        ... not a disguise. Just to block out the world.

    23. LFLex Fridman1:24:15

        Yeah.

    24. MCMagnus Carlsen1:24:15

        'Cause otherwise, um...

    25. LFLex Fridman1:24:17

        Don't make eye contact, just listen to-

    26. MCMagnus Carlsen1:24:19

        Yeah. No, no, so the thing is, people in general are nice.

    27. LFLex Fridman1:24:23

        (laughs)

    28. MCMagnus Carlsen1:24:23

        I mean, people they wish me well. Uh, and they don't like bother me. Also, when I have the headphones on, I don't notice as much people, like turning around and-

    29. LFLex Fridman1:24:34

        Yeah.

    30. MCMagnus Carlsen1:24:34

        ... and all of that. So, I can be more of in my own world.
12. 1:28:12 – 1:32:43

    Drunk chess

    1. MCMagnus Carlsen1:28:12

    2. LFLex Fridman1:28:12

       What about... You have been known to, on a rare occasion, play drunk. Is there a mathematical formula for sort of on the X axis, how many drinks you had, and on the Y axis, your performance/creativity? Is there like an optimal for... Like, uh, one of... Would you suggest for the FIDE World Championship that people would be required to drink? Would that change things in- in interesting ways?

    3. MCMagnus Carlsen1:28:36

       Yeah, not at all. Um, maybe for rapid, but for- for blitz... I think if you're playing blitz, you're mostly playing on- on short calculation and intuition. And I think those are probably enhanced if you've had a little bit of- little bit to drink.

    4. LFLex Fridman1:28:54

       Can you, uh, explain the, uh, the physiology of why that's- why it's enhanced? Or the...

    5. MCMagnus Carlsen1:29:01

       You're just- you're thinking less, you're more confident.

    6. LFLex Fridman1:29:04

       Oh yeah, it's con- (laughs) it's confidence.

    7. MCMagnus Carlsen1:29:06

       I think- I think it's just confidence. I think also, like a lot of people feel like they're better at speaking languages, for instance, if they've drunk a little bit. It's just like removing these barriers.

    8. LFLex Fridman1:29:19

       Yeah.

    9. MCMagnus Carlsen1:29:20

       I think that it's- it's a little bit of the same in- in chess. In 2012, I played the World Blitz Championship, and then I- I was doing horribly for- for a long time. I also had food poisoning there. I couldn't play at all for- for three days. So there- before the last break, I was like in the middle of the pack, like in, I don't know, 20th place or something. And so I decided, like, as the last- last gasp, I'm gonna go to the minibar and just have a few drinks. And, um, what happened is, that I came back and I was suddenly relaxed.

    10. LFLex Fridman1:30:00

        Hmm.

    11. MCMagnus Carlsen1:30:01

        Uh, and I was playing fast and I was playing confident. And I thought I was playing so well. I wasn't playing nearly as well as I thought, but it still helped me. Like, I won my remaining eight games, and if there had been one more round, I probably would have won the whole thing, but finally, I was- I was second. So generally, I wouldn't recommend that.

    12. LFLex Fridman1:30:20

        (laughs)

    13. MCMagnus Carlsen1:30:21

        But maybe as a last resort sometimes.

    14. LFLex Fridman1:30:23

        Yeah.

    15. MCMagnus Carlsen1:30:23

        Like, if you feel that you have the ability... Like, obviously none of this is remotely relevant if you don't feel like you have the ability to begin with. But if you like- if you feel like you have the ability, there are just factors that make it impossible for you to, um, to show it. Like, numbing your mind a bit can probably be a good thing.

    16. LFLex Fridman1:30:45

        Yeah. Well, it's interesting, es- especially during training, you have all kinds of sports that I've interacted with, a lot of athletes in grappling sports, it's different when you train under extreme exhaustion. For example, you start becoming- you start to discover interesting things, you start being more creative.

    17. MCMagnus Carlsen1:31:02

        Yeah.

    18. LFLex Fridman1:31:02

        A lot of people, um, in- at least in, uh, Brazilian jiu-jitsu, they'll- they'll smoke weed, you know? It does- it creates this kind of anxiety and relaxation that kinda, uh, enables that creative aspect. It's interesting for training. Of course you can't rely on any one of those things too much, but it- it's cool to throw in, like, a few drinks every once in a while to, uh... Yeah. One, first of all, to relax and have fun. And two, to kind of try things differently, to unlock a different part of your brain.

    19. MCMagnus Carlsen1:31:32

        Yeah, for sure.

    20. LFLex Fridman1:31:33

        Uh, what about supplements? Do you, uh, are you a coffee guy?

    21. MCMagnus Carlsen1:31:38

        Oh, no. Um, I quite like the taste of coffee.

    22. LFLex Fridman1:31:42

        Mm-hmm.

    23. MCMagnus Carlsen1:31:43

        Uh, I've... But it- but the thing is, I've never had a job.

    24. LFLex Fridman1:31:46

        (laughs)

    25. MCMagnus Carlsen1:31:48

        So I've never needed to wake up early.

    26. LFLex Fridman1:31:50

        Yeah.

    27. MCMagnus Carlsen1:31:50

        So my thought is basically that if I'm tired, I'm tired, that's fine.

    28. LFLex Fridman1:31:56

        Yeah.

    29. MCMagnus Carlsen1:31:56

        Then I'll, you know-

    30. LFLex Fridman1:31:59

        Just take a nap.
13. 1:32:43 – 1:40:37

    Chess training

    1. MCMagnus Carlsen1:32:44

    2. LFLex Fridman1:32:44

       What about exercise? So how does that- what, like, what kind- what- you know, a lot of people talk about the extreme, um, stress that chess puts in your body, physically and mentally. How do you prepare for that, to be physically and mentally? Is it just through playing chess or do you do cardio? Any of- any of that kind of stuff?

    3. MCMagnus Carlsen1:33:07

       This is gonna be an up and down. Like, as I said, in 2013, I was in- I was in great shape. Like, I mean, generally I was exercising, doing sports every day, either playing football, or, um, tennis, or even other- other sports. Otherwise, if I couldn't do that, I would try and take my- my bike for- for a ride. I had a few training camps and I played tennis against one of my- my seconds. Like, he's not a super fit guy, but he's always been very good at tennis, and I never, like, played in any organized way. Um, and that was like- that was the- that was the perfect exercise, because I was running around enough to make the games pretty competitive.

    4. LFLex Fridman1:33:58

       Mm-hmm.

    5. MCMagnus Carlsen1:33:58

       Uh, and it means- meant that he had to run a bit less as well. But he was just- he said, like, he- he was shocked that if we played, like, for two hours, I wouldn't flinch at all.

Episode duration: 2:31:52