Mark Normand: Comedy! | Lex Fridman Podcast #255

Lex Fridman 0:00 The following is a conversation with Marc Normand, a New York comedian who has a way with words that is often both dark and hilarious. Let that be a warning, dear friends, to proceed with caution and to wear protection. You may in fact need it. He has a special on his YouTube called Out to Lunch and a new special on Netflix as part of the Stand Up season three series I recommend you watch. This is the Lex Fridman Podcast. To support it, please check out our sponsors in the description, and now here's my conversation with Marc Normand.

Lex Fridman 0:36 I asked Tim Dillon about Bukowski first, so let me continue on that tradition and ask you about something that Charles Bukowski said about love. You know-

Mark Normand 0:44 Wait, are we rolling?

Lex Fridman 0:46 Yes. This-

Mark Normand 0:46 Oh, geez. No hello? No nothing.

Lex Fridman 0:48 Nope.

Mark Normand 0:48 I thought I was robotic.

Lex Fridman 0:51 (laughs) Bukowski said, "Love is a fog that burns away with the first daylight of reality." So, uh, Marc Normand, let me first ask you about love. Uh, what are your thoughts about love? You talk about your relationships quite a bit. Do you think love can last?

Mark Normand 1:07 I do, but I think it's work. Everybody wants love to be this pre-packaged, perfect, euphoric thing, but it, you gotta... It's like a, a good body, you know? We're all born with a good body, but you gotta keep it in shape, and it's the same with a, with a loving relationship.

Lex Fridman 1:25 I think you, uh-

Mark Normand 1:27 Nobody wants to do the work. That's the problem.

Lex Fridman 1:30 (laughs) You talked about... I think you told a story about being unfaithful to a previous girlfriend or something like that. I think the story goes that you were like drifting apart. Who were you talking to? Bert Kreischer maybe, or some-

Mark Normand 1:43 Oh, yeah.

Lex Fridman 1:43 ... somebody like that? Drif-

Mark Normand 1:45 We were high school sweethearts. Dated for like 12 years and then...

Narrator 1:48 I didn't know how to...

Lex Fridman 1:48 So that wasn't love anymore. That was more like a relation- that was like... yeah.

Mark Normand 1:51 It was comfort. It was routine, and uh, we just slipped into that kind of married life autopilot world, and uh, I tried to break up I think, and it didn't take. It was one of those things. Our lives were just so baked in, and then I think I, uh, cheated and she caught me and it was ugly and then we went to therapy to try to work it out, but it's, it's much like a car that gets into a wreck. The door just never closes the same.

Lex Fridman 2:18 (laughs)

Mark Normand 2:18 You know what I mean?

Lex Fridman 2:19 Yeah. So...

Mark Normand 2:20 So...

Lex Fridman 2:20 What are your thoughts about then, um, commitment, like outside of love? Marriage?

Mark Normand 2:25 I think it's an antiquated idea. I think it's kind of silly and unrealistic, and I think we're coming out of that as we get all polyamorous and non-binary and queefy and all this stuff. I think we're slowly moving away from that, but uh, I think a lot of the ladies more, majority of women, like marriage, like the idea of it. Like I'm in a... I'm f- I'm a fiance now or whatever you call it.

Lex Fridman 2:48 Oh, yeah?

Mark Normand 2:48 I'm engaged, and I mean she is just woo-wee, going hog wild. She's loving it. She's got the dress thing, pick a venue, flower, and she's, she's deep in whereas I feel guilty because I'm just like ah, geez.

Lex Fridman 3:04 (laughs) Is it planned already? When's the wedding?

Mark Normand 3:06 Yeah. You see Squid Game? I'm just living life. Uh, yeah.

Lex Fridman 3:09 (laughs)

Mark Normand 3:10 It's, it's, uh, planned. It's in New Orleans. I'm from there, and uh, it's next year.

Lex Fridman 3:15 Okay.

Mark Normand 3:16 Are you married?

Lex Fridman 3:16 No. Single.

Mark Normand 3:17 Virgin?

Lex Fridman 3:19 Uh, (laughs) of course yeah. Yeah.

Mark Normand 3:20 I can't imagine... I bet you'd be great in bed. You're ripped.

Lex Fridman 3:22 Uh, I don't...

Mark Normand 3:22 And you have the best hairline in podcasting.

Lex Fridman 3:24 (laughs) Yeah, I don't know. I haven't tried yet. So we'll have to see.

Mark Normand 3:27 All right. Well, let me know. Pretty big hog on you?

Lex Fridman 3:30 (laughs)

Mark Normand 3:30 Yeah, I could see you packing a crazy, crazy tool downtown.

Lex Fridman 3:35 Mm-hmm. That matters to girls?

Mark Normand 3:38 Apparently, yeah. That's all I hear about.

Lex Fridman 3:40 (laughs) Okay. N-

Lex Fridman 3:42 New Orleans. You grow up in New Orleans?

Mark Normand 3:43 Yeah. Born and raised. Treme, outside the French Quarter. You ever been?

Lex Fridman 3:48 Yeah. Don't remember it.

Mark Normand 3:50 Oh, you drink?

Lex Fridman 3:51 Yeah, I drink.

Mark Normand 3:52 Oh, shit.

Lex Fridman 3:52 Of course I drink.

Mark Normand 3:53 I don't know. I can't tell if you have fun.

Lex Fridman 3:55 No, not really. But Russ- I mean Russian of course. I drink vodka, all that kind of stuff.

Mark Normand 3:59 Oh, right. You're Russian.

Lex Fridman 3:59 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Mark Normand 4:00 Yes.

Lex Fridman 4:00 You got to know.

Mark Normand 4:01 Vodka. Beer was just labeled an alcoholic beverage in 2011. Fun fact.

Lex Fridman 4:06 What do you mean?

Mark Normand 4:06 In Russia.

Lex Fridman 4:07 What was it?

Mark Normand 4:08 It was just drinks. It was just like apple juice before.

Lex Fridman 4:10 Yeah.

Mark Normand 4:11 It finally got declared legally as an alcoholic beverage.

Lex Fridman 4:16 Which means you can regulate it. That kind of thing.

Mark Normand 4:18 I guess so.

Lex Fridman 4:19 Yeah.

Mark Normand 4:19 See that's where your brain goes.

Lex Fridman 4:21 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Mark Normand 4:21 I just go all these fucking Ruskies are ass.

Lex Fridman 4:22 I didn't even know there was rules about drinking.

Mark Normand 4:24 (laughs)

Lex Fridman 4:25 This is good. I'm learning about Russia from you. So, um, what's a difficult memory experience from childhood in New Orleans that, uh, made you the man you are today?

Mark Normand 4:37 Mm, I don't know if it made me the man, but uh, geez, I had a lot of uh, scuffles in the neighborhood with... I was the white kid in the neighborhood so I was automatically the odd man out, the minority, the weirdo, the dork, the dweeb, the honky. So, uh, just a lot of memories of like getting slapped in the face by guys and just having to take it 'cause there's like five guys there and they'd be like, "Oh look, he doesn't even fight back." And you're like, "Well, what am I gonna do? Hit you and then get beat up by these guys?" So a lot of that stuff was a big bummer growing up. Got robbed all the time. Lost a lot of bicycles. Had a bicycle taken from under me. That was pretty brutal. Uh, these kids pulled up. You know, I'm... They're like 17 and I was 13 and I had f- a face paint on. Like I had a... Not black face, but I was at a summer camp and I had f- a rainbow face painted on me. We were helping kids that day so I let them put paint on me and uh, so now I'm riding home. What a mark! Uh, what a, what a goober I am. I'm riding home and these guys see me a mile away. I'm a sitting duck and they go, "We can take his bike. He's got a fucking rainbow on his cheek." So uh, they just go, "Hey," you know like, err, cut in front of you. They go, "Let me try your bike." I go, "Oh, I'm good. I'm good." I knew what they wanted. And uh, they go, "Let me try the bike," and then they just pushed me and took the bike.

Lex Fridman 5:58 (laughs)

Mark Normand 5:58 So stuff like that was really, uh, shaping the insecurity, the self-worth.

Lex Fridman 6:05 ... did it, uh... 'Cause I've been mugged when I was younger too.

Mark Normand 6:09 Really?

Lex Fridman 6:10 Yeah. It changes your view of human nature a little bit.

Mark Normand 6:13 For sure. You go, "Wow, I didn't know people could be this mean, this cruel-"

Lex Fridman 6:17 Yeah. Yeah.

Mark Normand 6:18 "... inconsiderate." I'm al- I'm always worried about, "Did I fart too much? Am I annoying? Uh, am I pissing this guy off?" But what a way to live, just, "I want the bike. I'm taking it. Fuck his feelings."

Lex Fridman 6:30 For me, that quickly turned into, um, realizing that that's just a temporary phase that those folks are in. Like, they, there's a... They have a capacity to be good.

Mark Normand 6:40 Sure.

Lex Fridman 6:40 Like, for some reason, for me, that was a motivation to see, can we discover, can- can we incentivize them to find, like, a better path in life? Like, I- I wasn't, like, all, like, I don't know, Gandhi about it, you know. Of course I was pissed and all those kinds of things, but... I don't know, it seemed like just the kind of thing you might do when you're younger.

Mark Normand 7:03 You hope. But it's adult crime, obviously.

Lex Fridman 7:07 Yeah, I know. But yeah, exactly. And then it solidifies, and then you're-

Mark Normand 7:11 Right.

Lex Fridman 7:11 ... beyond saving at some point. But it's like, there's always, there's always an opportunity to, uh, to make a better, uh, life for yourself, to, to become a better version of yourself.

Mark Normand 7:23 Yeah, and I remember coming home crying with no bike. And my mom, she's... My parents are, like, liberal to a fault.

Lex Fridman 7:29 Yeah.

Mark Normand 7:29 You know, where they were like, "Oh, well, they need it. They're poor kids in the neighborhood." And you're like, "All right, but I-"

Lex Fridman 7:35 (laughs)

Mark Normand 7:35 "... I also would like a- have a bicycle that, uh, I ride around." You know? And, "I also like to live in an area that's not just, you know, riddled with, uh, theft and vandalism." But they were just like, "Ah, they need it," and then it was a, it was a moot point, we just moved on. So I remember very young being like, "All right, I gotta figure my shit out."

Lex Fridman 7:53 Okay. So, you, you said you were beat up quite a bit, like bullying and stuff?

Mark Normand 7:57 Pushed around. I was never hospitalized or anything, but, you know, you get a black eye here and there and a bloody nose, stuff like that. And it was just the outnumbered thing. The violence didn't really bother me, 'cause you're just kids, you're boys.

Lex Fridman 8:10 Yeah.

Mark Normand 8:10 But it was the predatory, "Let's get him," you know, "We can take him down. He's," you know, "he's an easy target." That's what kills you.

Lex Fridman 8:19 Yeah.

Mark Normand 8:19 The mental part.

Lex Fridman 8:22 Yeah. You know, until you actually said it, I didn't realize it. I- I've been in, what do you call them? Scuffles?

Mark Normand 8:28 Mm-hmm.

Lex Fridman 8:29 And, uh, there was just one that stands out to me where-

Mark Normand 8:32 Ooh, let's hear it, fatty. Bring it on.

Lex Fridman 8:34 (laughs)

Mark Normand 8:34 I mean, you do jujitsu and all that stuff, right?

Lex Fridman 8:37 Yeah, that's right.

Mark Normand 8:37 Yeah, I can see the guns through the suit-

Lex Fridman 8:38 Yeah.

Mark Normand 8:39 ... you're like John Wick.

Lex Fridman 8:40 All right.

Mark Normand 8:41 All right.

Lex Fridman 8:41 Uh, well, I used to have... Now you're gonna start making fun of me. I used to have long hair for- for, like, a couple years-

Mark Normand 8:46 Ah.

Lex Fridman 8:46 I was in a band playing music and stuff like that. And there was, um... Like, most of the fights I've been in were basically one-on-one, maybe a little bit, like, a little extra stuff, but not outnumbered. And this one particular time, I've learned a lot of lessons, but one of them was, I... There was... The fight started between me and this other person, and then, uh, his buddies, I guess, were there.

Mark Normand 9:11 Uh-oh.

Lex Fridman 9:12 And they... As opposed to, like, breaking up or letting it happen, um, one of them grabbed my hair.

Mark Normand 9:18 Ooh.

Lex Fridman 9:19 It's the first time anybody grabbed, like, used my hair in a fight, which I've since then realized that that's actually a really powerful grip and a powerful weapon.

Mark Normand 9:27 Okay. Oh, very vulnerable of you.

Lex Fridman 9:29 And- and then my, uh, head got pulled back and they pulled me down to the gr-... Like, I couldn't do anything, it was so... I remember being exceptionally frustrated.

Mark Normand 9:37 Yes.

Lex Fridman 9:37 Like, that was the feeling, like, "I can't do anything here. I'm, like, trapped." And then they- they were just like, yeah, kicking me and hitting me and stuff like that. And the outnumbered part of it, um... 'Cause I always kind of remember the trapped part because I just hated, from a fighting/grappling perspective, how, like... Like, the feeling was, "This isn't fair."

Mark Normand 9:58 Yes, that's what it is.

Lex Fridman 9:59 (laughs)

Mark Normand 9:59 It's a deep, deep unfairness-

Lex Fridman 10:02 Yeah.

Mark Normand 10:02 ... that you just can't, you can't win. The mob wins.

Lex Fridman 10:05 Yeah, the mob wins.

Mark Normand 10:06 Scary stuff. And, but it makes, uh, makes a man outta you in a weird way, that builds character. You realize life isn't fair early and you, you go on from there.

Lex Fridman 10:14 Yeah, yeah.

Mark Normand 10:14 So there's something there. And look at you today.

Lex Fridman 10:17 Yeah.

Mark Normand 10:17 They're probably, uh, you know, eating out of a dumpster at a Krispy Kreme and you're here, got eight podcasts, you- you're doing great talking to-

Lex Fridman 10:24 Yeah.

Mark Normand 10:24 ... giant titans of the industry.

Lex Fridman 10:26 No, I- I- I do remember returning home that night. I mean, that you said you were crying, that's really formative. Like-

Mark Normand 10:33 Oh, yeah.

Lex Fridman 10:33 ... that's the point in which you get to decide, "What do I make of this moment?" And es- especially when you're younger, maybe it's not presented to you that way, but, like, some of the greatest people in history were bullied in these kinds of ways.

Mark Normand 10:47 Yes.

Lex Fridman 10:47 And they made something of themselves in this moment. Like, bullied by life in some kind of way.

Mark Normand 10:51 Yes.

Lex Fridman 10:51 It's a, it's like an opportunity for growth. It's, um... It's weird, but, like, hardship, even in small doses is like an opportunity for growth.

Mark Normand 11:00 Totally. I mean, look at Richard Pryor, they say, he's labeled as the best comedian of all time, grew up in a whorehouse, watched his mom get plowed by these guys in, in the middle of Indiana, I wanna say. And, uh, just who had a harder life? He would suck dick for drugs, all this stuff growing up, beat up. And, uh, then the weird thing is... (beeping) Oops, sorry, that's my birth control alarm.

Lex Fridman 11:21 (laughs)

Mark Normand 11:22 And then the, uh, the whole world is, like, trying to get rid of bullying, but we still do bullying, but now it's accepted bullying. It's very strange.

Lex Fridman 11:30 So you're, uh, you're a proponent of, uh, beating kids up? Is that what you're saying?

Mark Normand 11:33 Yes.

Lex Fridman 11:34 Okay.

Mark Normand 11:34 And sex with them.

Lex Fridman 11:35 All right. (laughs)

Mark Normand 11:36 Uh, but no, uh, I just think it's part of life and it's horrible it is. It's like rain, you gotta have it. Look, a rainy day is a bummer, you know, but you need it. And, uh, I think it's similar to that.

Lex Fridman 11:49 What- what was your relationship like with your, uh, your mom, your dad? What- what are some memorable moments with them? What did you learn from them?

Mark Normand 11:56 Good parents. Uh, giving, thoughtful, uh, a little out to lunch, you know. They were workaholics, so there was... It was hard to...... get a lot out of him and my dad was kind of an angry dad. I think he just had like a weird childhood and he's just trying to make it and he's trying to provide but it's hard, and we live in this horrible neighborhood and we're getting robbed all the time. Um, so life was kind of coming down on him all the time, so then he'll take it out on you or whoever, he would snap. But great parents, they cared, they put us first, um, but there wasn't a lot of... I don't know, you see, you know, you ever go to a friend's house as a kid and there's like a picture of a ski trip and you're like, "Ski trip?"

Lex Fridman 12:40 (laughs)

Mark Normand 12:40 "What the hell is that about?" (laughs) You know?

Lex Fridman 12:42 Yeah.

Mark Normand 12:42 There wasn't a lot of that and smart, very smart people, but I don't know how well they were at, uh, socializing.

Lex Fridman 12:49 So you never like bonded with them, like on a deep human level, like-

Mark Normand 12:53 There was some bonding but rarely deep, yeah, it was just almost- almost coworker. "Hey, cold out, huh?"

Lex Fridman 12:59 What?

Mark Normand 12:59 "It's cold out, huh?"

Lex Fridman 13:01 Oh yeah, like that kind of stuff?

Mark Normand 13:02 Yeah, yeah.

Lex Fridman 13:02 Yeah, yeah, gotcha.

Mark Normand 13:03 We would get there a little bit but it... My parents are down-

Lex Fridman 13:06 (laughs)

Mark Normand 13:06 ...I hope they never hear this, but they would do a thing where my dad especially would do a thing where he would uh... He knew how to cut you down, right to the bone, and so after a while you're like, "I'm not even gonna interact with this guy," 'cause he- he can get you so well. One time we were at a, uh, like a Thanksgiving, some kind of family ev- event, and all the cousins are there and I remember I was holding court. I was a young boy-

Lex Fridman 13:28 Mm-hmm.

Mark Normand 13:28 ...finding my comedic legs-

Lex Fridman 13:30 Yeah. (laughs)

Mark Normand 13:30 ...in this weird tumultuous sea we call a family and I was killing. And, um, my dad comes up and he goes, "What are you? Holding court?" And I was like, "Ah," and I felt like I was this big, I just, woo, shrunk down. He just nailed it, 'cause in my head I'm like, "I'm holding court! Look at me!"

Lex Fridman 13:46 Yeah.

Mark Normand 13:46 "I got the whole room!" And he goes, "What are you? What are you holding court here?"

Lex Fridman 13:50 Yeah.

Mark Normand 13:50 (laughs) Like, "Who the hell do you think you are?" And I was like, "He's right! I shouldn't be holding court. Who the fuck am I? I'm nobody." So, uh, stuff like that.

Lex Fridman 13:57 Was he aware of that, you think?

Mark Normand 13:58 He wasn't. He wasn't. I don't think he was, but...

Lex Fridman 14:01 Do you- you- do you give, um, parents a pass when they're unaware-

Mark Normand 14:06 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 14:06 ...of the destructive... Like, is it better when they're unaware? 'Cause it seems like that's the way-

Mark Normand 14:11 That's true.

Lex Fridman 14:11 ...that's the way- the way parents often fail is they're not intentionally malevolent.

Mark Normand 14:17 Mm-hmm.

Lex Fridman 14:18 They're just like clueless.

Mark Normand 14:20 Yeah. It- it's a bittersweet thing 'cause you're like, "Well, okay, well he's not malicious, he's not trying to hurt me," but also he doesn't know he hurt me. I- I don't know, it's- it's tough 'cause if he was trying to hurt you, I guess that would be worse.

Lex Fridman 14:35 So you're the fully baked Mark Normand cake at this point, uh, what-

Mark Normand 14:40 (laughs) Yeah. It's a shitty cake.

Lex Fridman 14:41 (laughs) Do you, um-

Mark Normand 14:43 Fruit salad.

Lex Fridman 14:45 You know, the sense of self-worth you mentioned, I think in your comedy there's a sense like you hate yourself.

Mark Normand 14:52 You think?

Lex Fridman 14:53 When I list- (laughs)

Mark Normand 14:54 I didn't know if that came through. Shit, I was trying to hide that part. Goddamn it.

Lex Fridman 14:58 I mean, when you like, in the privacy of your own mind, are you able to love yourself or is it mostly self-hate?

Mark Normand 15:06 (laughs) Oh, geez. What happened to this podcast? I didn't know I was on, uh, Mr.- or Dr. Phil.

Lex Fridman 15:11 Dr. Phil.

Mark Normand 15:11 I thought we were going to talk about engineering and- and climate change and rockets. Uh-

Lex Fridman 15:17 Well, we'll get there.

Mark Normand 15:18 Okay.

Lex Fridman 15:18 It starts with love, goes to rockets.

Mark Normand 15:20 All right. I like that. I like... That's a T-shirt. Um...

Lex Fridman 15:25 I mean, like-

Mark Normand 15:25 What's the question? Sorry.

Lex Fridman 15:26 (laughs)

Mark Normand 15:27 Do I feel love?

Lex Fridman 15:29 No, no, like, uh-

Mark Normand 15:29 Do I love myself?

Lex Fridman 15:31 Yeah, yeah, yeah. So are you, um... Like this engine of being self-critical, of just being constantly anxious about how the world perceives you, these kinds of things, is this something that you just go to for- for comedy or is this who you are as a human being?

Mark Normand 15:50 I think I- I don't want to explore it. I think I get around it, you know, I tap dance around it, but I get it out a little with my act maybe, 'cause I- I can't do it, I'm not doing it in real life so I'll get out this, uh, no love, not loving myself. I don't know. Who wants to love themself? Everybody always like, "You got to love yourself," and then when you meet somebody who does love himself, you're like, "I fucking hate this guy."

Lex Fridman 16:11 (laughs)

Mark Normand 16:11 Don't you hate the guy who's upset? "I'm great, I'm awesome. Life is good." You're like, "Ah, this guy sucks." I'd rather an insecure guy. So maybe I want to stay insecure, maybe I don't want to find this love for myself.

Lex Fridman 16:22 Well, okay, so self-love, like just appreciating who you are or like appreciating the moment or being grateful doesn't have to express itself by the guy saying, "I'm awesome"?

Mark Normand 16:34 True.

Lex Fridman 16:35 It's more just like humility, it's just like walking calmly through the world and just being grateful to be alive, that kind of thing, and just-

Mark Normand 16:41 That's good.

Lex Fridman 16:42 ...and like, oh, being appreciative of all the accomplishments you've made so far. I say all this because mostly I'm extremely self-critical in everything I do.

Mark Normand 16:50 Yeah. Thanks.

Lex Fridman 16:51 (laughs) Uh, and I kind of enjoy it. I think it's a nice little engine that it makes it fun, it makes life fun-

Mark Normand 16:57 Agreed.

Lex Fridman 16:58 ...'cause it's like if- if you hate everything you do, like you've done in the past, that gives you like, "All right, well, we can do better."

Mark Normand 17:06 Yes. But that's the key is making it self-critical, always trying to get better, "I could change this, I could tweak this, I could improve this," when you just go, "I hate that I do this. I suck."

Lex Fridman 17:15 Right.

Mark Normand 17:15 You just shut down. So that's the key is- is always being productive with the, uh, with the criticism.

Lex Fridman 17:21 Yeah, and the basics of life, I'm just like grateful for it, to be alive. That's nice to be couple- like couple that with, uh, with the self-criticism.

Mark Normand 17:28 Two legs, again, the hairline-

Lex Fridman 17:29 Two legs.

Mark Normand 17:29 ...the hog, the muscles, the- the- the- the world. You got a good brain on you.

Lex Fridman 17:34 Mm-hmm.

Mark Normand 17:34 I mean, you're- you're lucky. You're in the top... You know, most people are fat as shit at Burger King right now hitting their kids.

Lex Fridman 17:41 Yeah.

Mark Normand 17:41 You- you're in a- in a Ramada Hotel sitting with a, you know, a low level comedian.

Lex Fridman 17:47 For the record, I ate McDonald's last night so I think-

Mark Normand 17:50 Oh! All right, well, you're human.

Lex Fridman 17:51 (laughs) Well, just so you know, this is not me defending, I'm not sponsored by McDonald's, but I mostly eat meat and there's nothing wrong with the- the beef they have.

Mark Normand 18:00 Mm...

Lex Fridman 18:01 It's actually one of the easiest ways late at night-

Mark Normand 18:04 I think it's horse.

Lex Fridman 18:05 ...to- to-

Mark Normand 18:05 I don't know if it's actually cow.

Lex Fridman 18:06 It's- it's actually rats. Yeah, you're right.

Mark Normand 18:09 (laughs) But hey, it's just meat. I'm a meat guy myself.

Lex Fridman 18:12 ... uh-

Mark Normand 18:12 They say in 20 years, we're gonna look back and go, "Ugh. Can you believe people ate meat?" It's kinda like somebody, like, slavery.

Lex Fridman 18:18 Yeah. There's some ethical, difficult things with, uh, factory farming.

Mark Normand 18:22 Yeah, so let's ride it out now while we still got it. (laughs)

Lex Fridman 18:26 And now it's on record.

Lex Fridman 18:28 Tom Waits said something about New York. You like Tom Waits?

Mark Normand 18:32 I think he's underrated. I think he's got great... He's got a great, uh... He's great at quips and quotes.

Lex Fridman 18:37 Mm-hmm.

Mark Normand 18:38 He's... Check him out on, on YouTube. He's got some montages and super cuts of him being hilarious.

Lex Fridman 18:43 What does he say about, um, "I'd rather have a bottle in front of me than a frontal lobotomy."

Mark Normand 18:50 That was the one.

Lex Fridman 18:51 Yeah, that's a good one.

Mark Normand 18:51 That was the one that sold me. I was like, "This guy is awesome."

Lex Fridman 18:53 Yeah. But his music is... He's just a genius musician.

Mark Normand 18:57 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 18:57 Anyway, he was talking about New York, and I was walking around these... I'm in New York right now. We're in New York right now. It's still a magical city to me.

Mark Normand 19:04 Agree.

Lex Fridman 19:04 A lot of people are quite cynical about it, about the state of things, but-

Mark Normand 19:08 Logan.

Lex Fridman 19:08 (laughs) Well, not, not like Michael Malice. Like, a lot of friends of mine, they're just... A lot of folks in San Francisco and New York, there's something about the pandemic where people have become quite cynical about the place they are and they tried to escape.

Mark Normand 19:22 Very true.

Lex Fridman 19:22 It's interesting. I mean, they're asking some difficult questions about where they are in life. They're having like a self-imposed midlife crisis. Is, it's good, I think, for everybody to go through this process. But I think... I hope New York reemerges-

Mark Normand 19:35 It will.

Lex Fridman 19:36 ... as the flourishing place for the weirdos. Anyway, the... Tom Waits said, "New York," of course, "is to be an endless surreal situations where a $50,000 gunmetal Mercedes pulls up in a puddle of blood and out steps a 25 karat blonde with a two dollar wristwatch."

Mark Normand 19:54 Woo.

Lex Fridman 19:55 And he goes... He keeps going on. So like, it's like, um-

Mark Normand 19:58 That's like bars. He's like a rapper.

Lex Fridman 20:00 Yeah, yeah, yeah. He's good. Um, but basically just the absurdity of it all. Lots of money, lots of weirdos, uh, degenerates and dreamers and the whole, the whole mix of it. Do you think, um... Do you think that's an accurate description of what New York is today? Like, is, there still plays for the weirdos and just the interesting artists? The, the edgy, the comedians, the, the creators, the, the, the, the entrepreneurs, like, as opposed to, like, Wall Street, as opposed to, like, rich folk and then, like, hopeless folk?

Mark Normand 20:41 Yeah, I think it's definitely changed a lot. There's a, there's a tiny corner for us weirdo artists. New York used to be where you went to make it as a painter or whatever, a comedian or a singer, and there were all these dives and shit boxes and all these places you could go, and now there's a... now it's more Pinkberries and subway sandwiches and Chase Bank. So-

Lex Fridman 21:00 (laughs)

Mark Normand 21:00 ... it's definitely lost a lot of its, uh, creative edge. It's just money. Money keeps coming in and now you see all these comedians move to Nashville, Austin, Denver, whatever. So, uh, it doesn't have the, the power it used to have of like, "You gotta be here if you wanna make it." That's definitely gone. Uh, so that hurt the city a lot. The city is, is way more soulless. When I moved here in '07, I mean, not only did I get mugged three times in the first year, but it was a hub of like... It felt like things were happening here, you know? It was, it was an energy, it was electricity. And we still have the electricity, but it's also maybe just 'cause there's Times Square, there's SoHo, there's, uh, Wall Street. So we got the staples, but there is a little bit of that... It's almost like a marriage. Like, yeah, we're in love, but it, it's not as passionate as it once was. That's how I would equate New York.

Lex Fridman 21:51 What gives you hope? You're pretty hopeful about it, though.

Mark Normand 21:54 I'm hopeful just 'cause I know it's magical and I, and I think it has to be. I mean, it's the epicenter of America. Like, this is where the immigrants came and this is where the stock market is. And the entertainment industry, a lot of it is here. So I think it, it's, it's gonna happen, but it all... Something like the bottom has to fall out and then people have to move back here and all that. So something... The corporations are kind of fucking us. They're just buying everything.

Lex Fridman 22:20 Well, that's true for everything. Aust-

Mark Normand 22:22 That's true for everything.

Lex Fridman 22:23 It's true for Austin probably as well. People are just buying out land and all that kind of stuff.

Mark Normand 22:27 You always hear of Hemingway and Dali and all these guys went to Paris in the '20s or whatever that was. Yeah, I get it now. I used to be like, "Why did these guys go to Paris?" You know, why do these artists... And now I get it 'cause it's like, it's freer there. That's why Austin became like that Paris where everybody's like, "I gotta get out of LA, I'm going there." And, uh, may- but we came back from that, you know? The '70s were wild and '90s were cool, so maybe it'll come back.

Lex Fridman 22:54 (laughs)

Mark Normand 22:54 Might just take a decade.

Lex Fridman 22:56 Well, there's always... That's how stories are told. There's always pockets of, like, Paris within New York, right?

Mark Normand 23:02 True, true.

Lex Fridman 23:03 Of there's just an opportunity to let your weird flourishes there in New York, I'm sure. There... I mean, um...

Mark Normand 23:12 It's there. You gotta find it. Before, it was front and center.

Lex Fridman 23:16 What's your favorite thing about New York? Like what, what kind of things just like-

Mark Normand 23:22 I mean, how long is this pod? I could go on. It's just... It's too much to, to put into one hour. We've got other questions, but I love that one neighborhood is wildly different than the next. I'm in Little Italy and then you take four steps, now I'm in Chinatown. I mean, and then the history there, and then the stories, and the food and the culture and all that. And then you go 10 feet over here and now you're in Brooklyn and this is insane. It's a whole nother world and it's, it's almost like a little America in one, you know, uh, city. And it's great. And, uh, just the fact that they pulled it off. Like, Fifth Avenue goes way up and you're like, "There's a billionaire's house next to a hobo."

Lex Fridman 24:01 (laughs)

Mark Normand 24:01 And then this is a Black guy who's, who's fighting with a Cuban guy, and an Asian guy is, uh, trying to get in the middle of them. And the cabbie is from, uh, the Middle East. And there's so many beautiful women here and there's so many brilliant minds here. And, and the pace is great. It keeps people moving. I mean, it just-You can't beat it. And the city will fuck you in the ass too, don't get me wrong. You land at JFK and you're like, "Oh, God. I got mugged. My, uh, my Uber driver called me a homo. Uh, I stepped in, in human shit. Where the fuck am I?" Um, so yeah. It's, it's bad news but that bad news, it's almost like the bullying. It kills you in a weird way but it makes you stronger and you build more layers and layers and layers. That's why some new guy, some hay seed from Milwaukee shows up-

Lex Fridman 24:43 (laughs)

Mark Normand 24:44 ... you've been here 10 years and you go, "Let me, let me help you out 'cause, uh, you're, you, you gotta a- adjust. You're gonna get your ass kicked for like six months but I know the ropes a little." And uh, I think you need a little that. If the treadmill's not on, you're not gonna run. New York, the treadmill's on so it just makes you run and it makes you better. Look, it wears on you. You probably lose 10 years of your life living in New York versus, uh, you know, Indianapolis. But it's a, you know, it's a better life.

Lex Fridman 25:12 Have you seen 25th Hour?

Mark Normand 25:14 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 25:14 With Ed Norton.

Mark Normand 25:15 It's been a while.

Lex Fridman 25:16 Um-

Mark Normand 25:16 A Spike Lee joint.

Lex Fridman 25:17 Yeah, a Spike Lee joint. I mean, uh, Ed Norton. There's a, there's a whole, like, monologue there about New York.

Mark Normand 25:24 Oh, that's right.

Lex Fridman 25:25 They're talking about just, he, he has like, a mix... It's, there's like, melancholy music I think, or just a melancholy feel to the whole thing, but there's an anger and a disgust with the city.

Mark Normand 25:37 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 25:37 But through the anger and the disgust comes out like, uh, a love for the city. The same with... Was Taxi Driver in New York?

Mark Normand 25:43 Oh yeah. Of course. Easy.

Lex Fridman 25:45 Yeah. Yeah, so like that, there's something about... What is that? What is th- that, that, that, uh, grit of the city that, like, pushes you down?

Mark Normand 25:56 Well, that's the beauty of this city is it's this tribal human nature like the sex shops and fistfights and racism and all this tension, but yet it's the epicenter of technology and finance and sophistication-

Lex Fridman 26:09 Yeah.

Mark Normand 26:09 ... on Fifth Avenue, so you get that juxtaposish.

Lex Fridman 26:13 (laughs)

Mark Normand 26:13 It's kinda like in Boston. You go to Boston, they got MIT, they got Harvard, they got all this shit, and then they got the fishermen, the blue-collar douchebags, the Irish guys, the immigrants, you know, and you get that mix of, like, insanely smart with wicked pisser and these, these two worlds and that's what... that's a good thing. It's like when a Black guy fucks an Asian lady, that's a good-looking kid.

Lex Fridman 26:35 (laughs)

Mark Normand 26:35 You get a mix.

Lex Fridman 26:36 Yeah.

Mark Normand 26:36 You know? We're mixing s- two totally different things, they're coming together and it makes it... It's like peanut butter and chocolate.

Lex Fridman 26:43 Peanut butter and chocolate. I've never tried that.

Mark Normand 26:45 What?

Lex Fridman 26:46 Peanut butter... Maybe I have.

Mark Normand 26:47 I'm talking about Reese's, man.

Lex Fridman 26:48 Like Reese's, yeah, I haven't... yeah, yeah, yeah.

Mark Normand 26:50 Oh, it's the best candy.

Lex Fridman 26:52 Yeah. Without the fakeness of LA. Without the, without the kind of, um, without the facade.

Mark Normand 27:00 Yeah. LA's tough.

Lex Fridman 27:03 What's the difference between, uh, LA comedy and New York comedy to you?

Mark Normand 27:07 Hm. I think one place you kinda go to make it and be discovered and be loved, and one place you go... You can, you can get all that in New York too but I think in New York it's more of a, a school, a boot camp of comedy. Let's make great comedy. Let's make original comedy. Let's watch the other guys and gals who are at the show, at the clubs and learn from them and try to hang out with them and, and absorb some of them. And uh, in LA it's like, "When am I on? I'm next. Get out of my way. I'm the star here. I'm a bigger star than you. Oh, this guy's actually a big star, I gotta outwork..." You know, it's just a lot of that instead of like, "Damn, that was funny. I gotta be that funny. Damn, I wish I had a joke." And look, I, I don't wanna speak for LA comics 'cause there's, you know, Bill Burr, Anthony Jeselnik-

Lex Fridman 27:54 Yeah.

Mark Normand 27:54 ... these brilliant LA comics but they all cut their teeth in New York.

Lex Fridman 27:57 (laughs)

Mark Normand 27:57 Just saying. Then they moved to LA.

Lex Fridman 28:00 That's a good point, yeah.

Mark Normand 28:01 You know, Ali Wong, all these people. Killer comics but New York, started in New York, moved to New York.

Lex Fridman 28:07 There is something about comics that stay in New York for a long time though, like Dave Attell.

Mark Normand 28:11 Ah. You know about Dave?

Lex Fridman 28:12 Yeah, yeah. He wants to do this podcast.

Mark Normand 28:14 He does?

Lex Fridman 28:15 Yeah. I'm a huge fan of Dave Attell.

Mark Normand 28:16 Wow. Yeah, he's a king.

Lex Fridman 28:16 But it's like, it almost like he doesn't want to make it.

Mark Normand 28:20 (laughs) Yeah.

Lex Fridman 28:21 I don't know. I mean, you probably know him but like, it feels like you just... Uh, maybe it's romanticizing it but you're like, you almost just love the art of comedy-

Mark Normand 28:31 Yes.

Lex Fridman 28:31 ... of like, becoming funnier, crafting the jokes, becoming funnier than the other comics, like competing with each other kinda thing. Not over like, money or fame or any of that-

Mark Normand 28:40 Yes.

Lex Fridman 28:41 ... just, just purely the comedy of it.

Mark Normand 28:43 Totally. That's Dave. That's him in a nut. He's like that guy in the movies, in the '80s action movies where they're like, they go up to a, a creek in Montana and some guy's living in a cabin and he's sharpening a stick and they go, "The Russians are coming. They're invading. We need you. You're the best commando." And he's like, "I gave that up, man."

Lex Fridman 28:59 (laughs)

Mark Normand 28:59 "I'm done with that lifestyle." They're like, "But you're the best. We need you." And he has to suit up eventually. You know, he looks at a picture of his dead wife and he goes, "Fuck it. I'm going." And then they, you know, fight the Ruskies. But uh, he's that guy. He just is gifted. He's like, got a gift from Allah and he's the best.

Lex Fridman 29:16 Yeah, a lot of comics give him props. That's so surprising to me. I didn't... 'Cause, 'cause, surprising to me because he hasn't really made it like big as-

Mark Normand 29:25 Well, he did in the '90s. He was huge. He had his own TV show, he was the-

Lex Fridman 29:29 Yeah, yeah. That show was, that show was awesome. But I mean like, as big as I think he deserves to be so I-

Mark Normand 29:34 Well, that's art. The mainstream shit is always the worst.

Lex Fridman 29:37 The-

Mark Normand 29:37 It's like McDonald's versus some hole in the wall... I know I'm shitting on McDonald's again but it's good and you know, certain comics we could name are good but the, the delicacy is gonna be less talked about and less, uh, household namey than, than the mainstream hacky shit.

Lex Fridman 29:58 Yeah, it's funny 'cause he hasn't uh... I think he was on, uh, Joe Rogan's show once maybe?

Mark Normand 30:04 Yeah, once or twice.

Lex Fridman 30:04 And, and he was with somebody else, um-

Mark Normand 30:07 Jeff Ross?

Lex Fridman 30:08 Yeah. He might, he might've been with Jeff Ross. Oh yeah, 'cause they did that like, two mics thing, whatever.

Mark Normand 30:12 Bumping mics, yeah.

Lex Fridman 30:13 Yeah. Um-

Mark Normand 30:15 But he's the quickest guy.

Lex Fridman 30:16 He is so quick.

Mark Normand 30:16 There's no one funnier.

Lex Fridman 30:17 Yeah.Yeah. Uh, him and, uh, you, you're super quick. Your, your appearance on, recent appearance on Ro Wok was hilarious.

Mark Normand 30:24 Oh, thanks. (laughs)

Lex Fridman 30:25 Just so fast. You're on with, uh, Ari and...

Mark Normand 30:29 Shane Gillis.

Lex Fridman 30:30 Shane Gillis.

Mark Normand 30:31 Yeah, that was fun.

Lex Fridman 30:31 That was fantastic.

Mark Normand 30:31 We're going back in January.

Lex Fridman 30:33 Yeah, nice.

Mark Normand 30:33 Not when this comes out. (laughs)

Lex Fridman 30:35 (laughs) This has never come out. (laughs)

Mark Normand 30:38 (laughs) Neither will you. Oh. Ha. We're having fun.

Lex Fridman 30:41 Yep. All right. So w- what does it feel like, um, to bomb in stand-up comedy? Like-

Mark Normand 30:47 Ooh.

Lex Fridman 30:47 ... to fail? Maybe the psychology of it first. Like, just take me through it. 'Cause y- we're talking about being, uh, outnumbered in a- in a fight, just being beat up.

Mark Normand 30:58 (laughs) Very similar.

Lex Fridman 30:59 (laughs)

Mark Normand 31:00 Uh, by the way, this is like a no eye contact off.

Lex Fridman 31:02 Yeah.

Mark Normand 31:03 You know?

Lex Fridman 31:03 Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Mark Normand 31:04 I l- I catch eclipses and then-

Lex Fridman 31:04 We're both uncomfortable with-

Mark Normand 31:05 Yeah. (laughs)

Lex Fridman 31:06 Yeah.

Mark Normand 31:06 It's great. It's kinda nice to be with my people.

Lex Fridman 31:08 (laughs)

Mark Normand 31:09 Um, but yeah, bombing-

Lex Fridman 31:10 Do you need a sheet of paper to look at or...? (laughs)

Mark Normand 31:11 (laughs) I'm going... (whistles) I got a good sweet spot right there.

Lex Fridman 31:15 Nice.

Mark Normand 31:16 Yeah. It's, uh, it's a nightmare but it's part of it, you know? It's, it's, it's the, it's the validation too is the worst part. Like, 'cause you know, whenever you do comedy and kill, you can be a great comic but even Dave Attell, all these brilliant guys, they feel like they're getting... You feel like you're getting away with something. "I don't have a day job. I'm telling jokes for a living."

Lex Fridman 31:34 Yeah, yeah.

Mark Normand 31:34 "I'm talking about my dick up here and they're fucking loving me and they call me is, uh, a genius."

Lex Fridman 31:38 Yeah, yeah.

Mark Normand 31:38 "And all this." I'm talking about my sack.

Lex Fridman 31:39 Yeah.

Mark Normand 31:39 You know? And, uh, and it's great. It makes people happy and it's funny but, uh, that bombing. When you bomb, you go... Your first thought is like, "Yeah, you're right." Y- at first you're like, "Fuck you guy- what? You don't like this shit?" And then you just start going in. You're like, "Nah, maybe it isn't that good. Maybe they're right. I do suck. I knew I sucked. I should become a mailman." You know? And, uh, it stinks and it feel- you feel alone. And you feel like you wasted their time and then you're like, "What was I thinking I could be a comedian? What the fuck? Who am I? You know, Eddie Murphy? What am I doing here?" So, uh, it's a lot of just spiraling out of horrible thoughts. But I also love that it hurts so bad. Bombing fucking hurts because now n- now everybody doesn't do it. I think a lot more people could do comedy probably and figure it out, but the bombing is so brutal that it keeps, uh... One time I went to Minneapolis. I was like, "This is a great city. I mean, it's, sun is shining. Why isn't this city like"-

Lex Fridman 32:35 (laughs)

Mark Normand 32:35 "... packed?" And they're like, "'Cause the winters are so bad and we love it 'cause it keeps everybody out." And I feel like the same about comedy. The bombs are so brutal. I've had bombs where I'm in the, I'm in bed, I'm just staring at the ceiling like, "What the fuck was that?" Like you have PTSD. I bombed at an arena once, 20,000 people. I did 30 minutes to silence. I could hear-

Lex Fridman 32:52 So it's not just like one joke fails. It's like-

Mark Normand 32:55 Oh, yeah.

Lex Fridman 32:56 They start piling on? Like it's irrecoverable?

Mark Normand 32:58 Yes. And one joke failing is very common. Like a lot of audience don't even notice, like-

Lex Fridman 33:02 Right.

Mark Normand 33:03 ... that bomb y- 'cause you get, you know, you got so many jokes in a row you can sandwich a good one, then a bad one, then a good one. But when you bomb, it's almost like they chose, "We don't like you."

Lex Fridman 33:12 Yeah.

Mark Normand 33:12 "Nothing you say will redeem yourself." And, uh, it's hard to get out of. It's like being pulled down by your hair. You can't get back. "I can't win this fight-"

Lex Fridman 33:20 Yeah.

Mark Normand 33:20 "... no matter what."

Lex Fridman 33:22 Can you like get them back by acknowledging like the-

Mark Normand 33:25 That helps.

Lex Fridman 33:25 ... elephant in the room? That like... (laughs)

Mark Normand 33:27 That helps but they're still gonna go, "Ah, it was funny when he made fun of it but he sucks."

Lex Fridman 33:31 (laughs) He still sucks.

Mark Normand 33:32 He still sucks. (laughs) That's the worst part. You're going-

Lex Fridman 33:34 Yeah.

Mark Normand 33:34 ... "No, this is good! You guys just don't like me. Just 'cause you don't like me doesn't mean I'm bad."

Lex Fridman 33:39 Yeah. I, I like going to open mics a lot.

Mark Normand 33:41 Woo!

Lex Fridman 33:41 Just, just listening because first of all, I think the audience in open mic, at least the ones I've been to, is, um, mostly I guess other comedians. It, it... Or like at least people who don't seem to want to laugh at anything.

Mark Normand 33:54 Yes.

Lex Fridman 33:55 And so, I just love it 'cause it's human nature and perseverance at its best. That here's comedians like clearly, uh, this is mostly in Austin, they have a dream.

Mark Normand 34:06 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 34:06 Like why would you get up there?

Mark Normand 34:07 Right.

Lex Fridman 34:08 M- like...

Mark Normand 34:09 Maybe some weird, you know, New Year's resolution bullshit.

Lex Fridman 34:13 Yeah.

Mark Normand 34:13 But for the most part, it's people who want to be a comedian.

Lex Fridman 34:16 Like a lot of the open mic-ers are people who have clearly have done this for quite a long time already.

Mark Normand 34:20 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 34:21 Like at least a year or two, maybe five years. And they're often not very funny and, um, the... Just bombing in front of an audience of like 20-

Mark Normand 34:36 Woo!

Lex Fridman 34:36 ... where they're just sitting there, like almost like mocking them with their eyes.

Mark Normand 34:42 Yeah. (laughs)

Lex Fridman 34:42 Or maybe l- (laughs) And I don't know, and they still push through. They still, they still like, as if they're doing an arena and everybody's laughing.

Mark Normand 34:51 Yes.

Lex Fridman 34:51 They still, they still got that energy trying almost like to an audience that doesn't exist. Like an audience of their dreams, 'cause I guess that you have to do that to keep the energy of the act going and it's just so beautiful to watch-

Mark Normand 35:05 Wow.

Lex Fridman 35:06 ... them try it. It's, uh... And also the... What happens open mic, I don't know, five minutes, whatever they do, they, you know, walk off and that walk back, you know, off stage.

Mark Normand 35:18 Oh. Nightmare.

Lex Fridman 35:19 And, and like you can't... What, who do they look at? Like-

Mark Normand 35:22 (laughs)

Lex Fridman 35:22 ... what do you l- look... Do you make eye contact with people? Do you...

Mark Normand 35:25 You look at your phone, you look at your feet, you, you just zone out. You kinda woo, you kinda go white, you know? You just hear white noise and go out. It's, it's tough. But you gotta... You need a little delu- a delu- a little delusion to be a comedian. To get into it, it takes a little bit of delusion. Like, "You think you can do this? You know, you got 10 years ahead of you of hell and you're up for this?" And, you know, most comics, we see a horrible crowd and we see our friend bomb and we go, "Yeah, he's bombing but I'll get him. I'll get him." And then you don't get him. But-

Lex Fridman 35:59 (laughs)

Mark Normand 35:59 ... that's, that's human nature too is like, "Ah, they don't like him but they'll like me."

Lex Fridman 36:04 Yeah.

Mark Normand 36:04 And you need a little of that to keep going as a comedian. But you don't want too much delusion 'cause then you're a psycho. But you need a little.

Lex Fridman 36:12 Well, the psycho could be good for a comedy.

Mark Normand 36:14 That's true too.

Lex Fridman 36:14 But-

Mark Normand 36:14 A lot

Mark Normand 36:15 of psychos.

Lex Fridman 36:15 I mentioned to you offline, um, that I talked to Elon and we talked about doing standup that he's thinking maybe do a few minutes of standup.

Mark Normand 36:22 Ah, same... If you need a coach, Elon, I got ya.

Lex Fridman 36:25 (laughs) Um, well, maybe you should move to Austin to coach him full time.

Mark Normand 36:30 Ah. Hope they can fly me in.

Lex Fridman 36:32 So...What, what advice would you give to somebody who, um, who wants to try and do five minutes? Like, the early steps of, uh, trying to go to an open mic and say something funny.

Mark Normand 36:46 Well, that's the irony of comedy is... I don't know if it's irony, but it's like the beginning is the hardest part. Usually the beginning is the easy part. "Hey, I'm playing this level of Mario. I start, I jump over one Koopa Troopa, whatever." And then the end is like, "Jesus Christ, I got 30 guys coming at me."

Lex Fridman 37:01 Yeah.

Mark Normand 37:01 Comedy's the opposite. The beginning is like, it's a gauntlet. It's just obstacles and it's like you said, open mics. You, I watch these famous comedians on Netflix and you go, "This would all bomb at an open mic." They're killing in, you know, Radio City.

Lex Fridman 37:13 Yeah.

Mark Normand 37:14 This would bomb at an open mic. That's the weird part. So it's almost like you have to go through hell just to get to the, the promised land. And, uh, I would say rehearse the shit out of it because you're gonna get frazzled up there. Everybody thinks, "Oh, this is good material." But you also forget about the other part of delivering it. Having confidence, being likable, having timing, having a cadence, figuring out who you are, figuring out what the audience thinks you are or how they perceive you. 'Cause you can go up there and say all this, but they go, "Why is the guy... He's clearly gay."

Lex Fridman 37:44 (laughs)

Mark Normand 37:44 "Why is he acting like he's not gay?" You know, that's all they're... Now they're not listening to the jokes. So like-

Lex Fridman 37:48 Yeah.

Mark Normand 37:48 ... you gotta know how you look. And, uh, it's just repetition, repetition, and bombing is not failure. That's what you gotta remember. I mean, look, if you, if you do a, a killer hour and then you take it to Netflix and bomb, you fucked up.

Lex Fridman 38:00 Mm-hmm.

Mark Normand 38:01 But bombing is not failure, it's just data. It's going, "Oh, okay. I gotta re- retool that. That didn't work. Something's wrong there. They, I missed a word there." So you gotta treat the, uh, the act almost like, uh, like, uh, like ingredients in a, in a, in a cooking, in a dish. You know, like, "Oh, that, I put too many eggs in." Take an egg out. You gotta treat it like that. And look, when you pull a, a bad cake out of an oven, you go, "I fucked up," but it doesn't hurt your feelings. But when you bomb and fuck up, it hurts your feelings. So you gotta factor that in too. Your feelings are gonna be hurt and just almost be a robot and just keep going towards that open mic. You know how scary an open mic is? Bombing sucks, but bombing in front of other comedians is way worse 'cause they know what just happened and they could have saved you and they didn't. So it's way worse.

Lex Fridman 38:51 And th- they're gonna be your, quote unquote, "friends" for this-

Mark Normand 38:55 (laughs) Yeah, exactly.

Lex Fridman 38:55 ... for this journey.

Mark Normand 38:56 Yeah, no, these are evil people most of the time.

Lex Fridman 38:58 (laughs)

Mark Normand 38:59 Twisted, fucked up-

Lex Fridman 39:01 W- well-

Mark Normand 39:01 ... hurt people.

Lex Fridman 39:02 Can you tell like in those early days, let's just talk about that, like at the open mic level, that a joke is gonna be good on paper? Like I'll, I'll give you my experience 'cause, uh, um, maybe you could be my coach in this particular moment.

Mark Normand 39:18 Please.

Lex Fridman 39:18 So, uh-

Mark Normand 39:18 You're like Larry Nassar.

Lex Fridman 39:20 (laughs)

Mark Normand 39:20 All right. (laughs) That's, that's fun, huh? Joking everybody. I hope nobody-

Lex Fridman 39:25 All right.

Mark Normand 39:26 ... takes him seriously.

Lex Fridman 39:27 Uh, there's... I now have an amazing team of, uh, of folks who help me with editing and they are now currently sweating as you watch this.

Mark Normand 39:34 Ah, you gotta leave that one in. That was quick.

Lex Fridman 39:36 Yeah, that's pretty good.

Mark Normand 39:36 I'll, I'll eat that one.

Lex Fridman 39:37 That was good. (laughs)

Mark Normand 39:40 (laughs)

Lex Fridman 39:40 All right. So, uh, you know, uh, going in front of an audience... Just even to give a lecture terrifies me, uh, which, which I've done.

Mark Normand 39:49 Mm-hmm.

Lex Fridman 39:50 But, uh, open mic, I mean, that to me, perhaps that's why I like going to open mics and listening is 'cause I just... It terrifies me so much, that idea-

Mark Normand 39:59 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 40:00 ... of going up there and bombing. I mean, it's scary. And, and to, to do even like one minute, to be honest, is scary, and five minutes.

Mark Normand 40:08 Oh, yeah.

Lex Fridman 40:08 I'm, I'm also watched enough open mics to realize that five minutes is a long time.

Mark Normand 40:13 Oh.

Lex Fridman 40:13 I mean, it depends on your comedy, but if you're doing fast stuff, five minutes is a really long time.

Mark Normand 40:20 Oh, it's eternity.

Lex Fridman 40:22 Um, I guess with a long story, t- two is a long time because if the story's not wor- you're building up to something. If the story's gonna fail-

Mark Normand 40:30 Yep.

Lex Fridman 40:31 ... you just spent all that time telling this story that completely went flat.

Mark Normand 40:35 Completely.

Lex Fridman 40:35 You got nothing. I guess if you have a series of jokes, you can at least try to recover and like-

Mark Normand 40:40 Mm-hmm.

Lex Fridman 40:40 ... do the Mitch Hedberg thing where like, "All right, I'll cross that off." Yeah.

Mark Normand 40:43 Yeah, yeah.

Lex Fridman 40:44 Uh, well, I'm able to, like I've tried to write a few things and I'm able to tell that it's really bad.

Mark Normand 40:51 (laughs) Well, that's-

Lex Fridman 40:52 Like-

Mark Normand 40:53 ... better than most.

Lex Fridman 40:54 (laughs)

Mark Normand 40:54 Most people's egos kick in. They go, "No, this is good."

Lex Fridman 40:56 No, see, I'm able to introspect that. Like it seems funny. I mean, I guess the thing I'm looking for is original. Like there's easy stuff that you think is funny, but to me, originality is the thing you should be looking for because then-

Mark Normand 41:12 I agree.

Lex Fridman 41:12 ... because then that's what's actually becomes funny. Like or rather if it's original, even if it bombs, that feels like more a beautiful art creation that you did. Like at least-

Mark Normand 41:28 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 41:28 ... you swung for it. Like you did something unique 'cause there... Like even with open mic, your first five minutes, there's so many... Just go to enough open mics, you'll hear like all the... There's like a list of jokes-

Mark Normand 41:39 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 41:39 ... that you can just go to. First of all, you can make fun of the fact that you're at an open mic that you're like-

Mark Normand 41:44 Right.

Lex Fridman 41:44 ... doing this the first time and so on. You could do a lot of stuff where you make fun of your appearance in some way-

Mark Normand 41:50 Yep.

Lex Fridman 41:50 ... and so on. But like yeah, you could do that, you know. That takes actually... That's way harder than people realize to do it in an original way.

Mark Normand 41:59 Yes.

Lex Fridman 42:00 To, to present who you are as a person very quickly enough to then (laughs) put that person down in front of everybody, everybody else. So you have to reveal the... (laughs)

Mark Normand 42:11 Audiences like that 'cause they go, "He knows what we're thinking."

Lex Fridman 42:13 Yeah, exactly, um, but do it again in an original way. And so like-

Mark Normand 42:17 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 42:17 ... when I'm trying to write stuff, uh, when it... Not that I've tried long. It's like 30 minutes, but as... Enough to see like, oh shit, the... To write something original is really difficult.

Mark Normand 42:30 It is, but do you, do you got a bit? Anything?

Lex Fridman 42:32 No, no, I don't have anything.

Mark Normand 42:32 You didn't write any one liner or anything?

Lex Fridman 42:34 For this, no. I'm not-

Mark Normand 42:35 Well, just in general, ever in your life, ever written a joke?

Lex Fridman 42:38 Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Mark Normand 42:39 Oh, okay.

Lex Fridman 42:40 No, but I don't have anything in my mind popped up.

Mark Normand 42:42 All right, all right.

Lex Fridman 42:42 So the, the, the jokes that I've written...... have more to d- like, for some reason, my mind goes to, like, dark places. So-

Mark Normand 42:51 Same.

Lex Fridman 42:51 ... you know, r- r- like, and not actually dark in the Mark Normand dark, because you go really dark-

Mark Normand 42:59 Mm-hmm.

Lex Fridman 43:00 ... to where it's, like, almost absurd.

Mark Normand 43:01 Yes.

Lex Fridman 43:02 My natural inclination is to go to, like, a dark historical, like, place, like Hitler and Stalin.

Mark Normand 43:11 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 43:12 And almost... So go to that place, and then talk about something absurd there.

Mark Normand 43:20 Mm-hmm.

Lex Fridman 43:21 So, like, don't go, like, um, like, all the way. I don't know. I don't wanna give examples because it'll be clipped. But the (laughs) but the Mark Normand style, look it up. He has a special on his YouTube. Uh, that kind. I, I, I want to almost explore the dark aspects of human nature more kind of, um, connected to actual historical figures. That's the, that's the inclination. Like, uh, I don't know, Nature Is Metal, the, the Instagram channel that-

Mark Normand 43:50 Yeah, love that.

Lex Fridman 43:50 ... that explores, like, the darkness of nature. Like-

Mark Normand 43:53 Yes.

Lex Fridman 43:53 ... like something there. Uh-

Mark Normand 43:55 That, see, that's good that you already know that you've kind of gotten to the core of your comedy already, and that, that's interesting.

Lex Fridman 44:02 Yeah.

Mark Normand 44:02 That's a step ahead.

Lex Fridman 44:03 Yeah, I can hear... I m- with most things that I do in life, I can, like, hear the music from a distance, like, in myself, like, "Okay, if you have anything, this is the direction it'll be-"

Mark Normand 44:13 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 44:13 ... without actually knowing exactly all the steps, and that's a nice motivation to be like, "All right, well, if you do this for a long time, maybe you'll have a chance to get there."

Mark Normand 44:21 Right.

Lex Fridman 44:22 But you have to... I think that, that's where the f- it's a feature to be s- super self-critical, I think.

Mark Normand 44:27 Yes.

Lex Fridman 44:27 But then that's why it's fucking terrifying to walk up to a stage, stand there, and probably forget everything.

Mark Normand 44:34 Yeah, that's the other part nobody thinks about, just goes right out of your head. You go fight or flight. It's ugly. My, my first years were horrific bombing, horrific stammering, horrific not remembering the punchline. Like, you got a, maybe you've got a l- a setup going and they're kind of on board, and you're like, "Ah, how's that... I can't remember. I can't remember how it goes." And you just hate yourself. It's, it's a nightmare. But you've already kind of... Maybe if you haven't done standup or whatever, but you kind of know your voice, and that's-

Lex Fridman 45:01 Yeah.

Mark Normand 45:01 ... that's pretty advanced.

Lex Fridman 45:02 So you're not trying to be somebody else. I guess, yeah, just for having done, like, podcasts and lecture and so on.

Mark Normand 45:09 Right. That helps.

Lex Fridman 45:09 You've, I've embarrassed... I've already done some of the work of the standups do, which is embarrass yourself in front of others for prolonged periods of time.

Mark Normand 45:17 Yes.

Lex Fridman 45:18 Yeah, so (laughs) I've done that without actually developing the funny, so (laughs) .

Mark Normand 45:22 Right, right, right.

Lex Fridman 45:23 But maybe the funny just is not that difficult to develop. Um, no, it's super difficult, of course, but, I mean, maybe the essential work of a standup comedian is just the embarrassment of, like, finding who you are.

Mark Normand 45:36 Yeah, that's a part of it, for sure. You know, in the beginning, you're like, "Water bottle, what's funny about water bottle? Hmm, I'm a funny guy, I can make this funny." But that ain't... That's not it, you know? It's, it's your shit, your shit, like, your dark stuff. For me, I tend to gravitate towards dark, but in a weird way where, you know, people will say, like, "Hey, don't objectify women," but then they go, "Caitlyn Jenner's beautiful." And you're like, "Well, wait. I know something's off here."

Lex Fridman 46:00 Mm-hmm.

Mark Normand 46:00 Why can you objectify her but not the supermodel? So what's going on there? And I like to play with that.

Lex Fridman 46:08 Yeah.

Mark Normand 46:08 So I have this joke where I say, uh, "Caitlyn Jenner..." Oh, sh-... Oh, women go, "Caitlyn Jenner's beautiful, a beautiful woman." I go, "Well, you look like her." And they go, "Fuck you." And you're like, there's a lot of truth there.

Lex Fridman 46:19 Yeah.

Mark Normand 46:20 But I like exploring that kind of, oh, you're trying to get one over on me or you're lying to yourself or what are we doing here? And I like, I like that kind of comedy.

Lex Fridman 46:29 Okay.

Mark Normand 46:30 "I don't see color." "Well, I'm Black." "No, you're not." "Aha."

Lex Fridman 46:33 (laughs)

Mark Normand 46:33 You know, that's fun 'cause you're, you're lying.

Lex Fridman 46:37 Uh, yeah, and you... Okay, so, like, big time comedians, such as yourself, don't like to think of yourself in this way, but-

Mark Normand 46:45 Uh-oh, here we go.

Lex Fridman 46:45 Yeah, this is, like, where you over philoso- philosophize comedy, but-

Mark Normand 46:50 Yeah, definitely.

Lex Fridman 46:51 ... uh, it seems like comedians-

Mark Normand 46:55 Don't say important. Nothing worse than a comedian who thinks they're important.

Lex Fridman 46:58 Yeah. So I was going there. I was trying to find... As I was trying to say these words, I re- d- uh, realize how cliché it is and how uninteresting it is.

Mark Normand 47:06 (laughs)

Lex Fridman 47:06 So I'm going to just... But th- there is something, uh-

Mark Normand 47:09 I'm worried this whole thing is uninteresting. I'm like, "Who cares about comedy?" And there's like six comics on the planet, but-

Lex Fridman 47:14 Yeah, nobody cares.

Mark Normand 47:15 Okay.

Lex Fridman 47:15 This is ju- (laughs) this is-

Mark Normand 47:16 I trust you in the, in the pilot seat. You know what you're doing. You got, you got listeners.

Lex Fridman 47:20 They've tuned out long ago.

Mark Normand 47:22 Oh, we gotta get Dan Carlin on here, huh? Is he around?

Lex Fridman 47:25 Yeah, yeah. We were just going back and forth on Twitter just now 'cause I'm a huge fan.

Mark Normand 47:29 Uh-huh, right.

Lex Fridman 47:29 He was on here before. He'll be back.

Mark Normand 47:31 He's great.

Lex Fridman 47:31 I've been actually really, uh, trying to volunteer myself aggressively with Dan Carlin for, (laughs) for, uh, for, like, a Russian episode where I could speak Russian. I, I... There, there's, there's certain documents saying... I talked with Jocko about this too. Cer- certain things... I mean, I just love the challenge of bringing Russian documents that I can read in Russian and then can translate and can try to capture the, uh, the depth of the writing in, um, in the Russian language and communicate it to an American audience. So much is lost in translation. Like, there's so much pain and poetry in the Russian language. It's just connected to the culture. E- every language... Not every language, but many languages are uniquely able to capture the culture of the people. I mean, I-

Mark Normand 48:20 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 48:20 In some way, they're the representation of the culture of the people. And so Russian is definitely that. It, like, represents the full history and culture of the 20th century with all the atrocities, all the, all the broken promises, all those kinds of things.

Mark Normand 48:32 Norm says, uh, Russian literature is... It's the most tapped into human existence than anything else.

Lex Fridman 48:39 Uh, Norm...

Mark Normand 48:40 Macdonald.

Lex Fridman 48:40 Yeah.

Mark Normand 48:41 Big, big Russian literature guy. Dostoevsky, all that shit.

Lex Fridman 48:46 It's funny that there is a gap with comedians too. There's a culture of Russian comedy, uh, like standup comedians that are totally-

Mark Normand 48:52 Is that right?

Lex Fridman 48:53 Yeah, yeah.

Mark Normand 48:54 I don't know these Russians.

Lex Fridman 48:55 I mean, uh, I don't know today, um-

Mark Normand 48:57 Oh, oh, okay.

Lex Fridman 48:57 ... I mean more from the '80s and '90s and so there was a-

Mark Normand 49:01 Yakov.

Lex Fridman 49:02 (laughs) No.

Mark Normand 49:02 That's all I know.

Lex Fridman 49:04 That's not... So there's like, of course-

Mark Normand 49:05 (laughs)

Lex Fridman 49:05 ... that's, that's- (laughs)

Mark Normand 49:07 I've never seen you that offended.

Lex Fridman 49:08 No, no, no, it's not an offend. There's a different, um, uh... There's, there's a... There's like, the Kinisons and the... There's the edgy-

Mark Normand 49:18 Is that Russian?

Lex Fridman 49:20 What, what do you mean?

Mark Normand 49:21 Wait, I thought you said there was Russian comics.

Lex Fridman 49:23 Yeah, Russian co-... I mean, I'm comparing them-

Mark Normand 49:24 Or style?

Lex Fridman 49:25 I'm, I'm giving you... I'm giving you like, a style of darkness, uh... Like, that's the kind of people that kind of-

Mark Normand 49:31 I see.

Lex Fridman 49:31 ... challenge, uh... They, they give... Again, this is to how important comedians are, is they give a voice to people, where in s- the Soviet Union you really can't like, express your opposition to the government. And so comedians are exceptionally important there for just, just, I don't know, channeling the anger, even when sometimes it's not the actual opposition to the government. They're just channeling the anger, the frustration with the absurdity of life, like... You know, when there's a shortage of food, shortage of jobs. The, the, the absurdity of the bureaucracy, like the... A top heavy government.

Mark Normand 50:12 Mm-hmm.

Lex Fridman 50:13 Just all of that can only sometimes be expressed with like, dark, absurd humor.

Mark Normand 50:20 I agree.

Lex Fridman 50:20 And that actually, why th- there's a culture of that kind of humor, you know, you gather around the table with vodka-

Mark Normand 50:27 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 50:27 ... and all you can do is just talk shit-

Mark Normand 50:30 Yep.

Lex Fridman 50:30 ... and just-

Mark Normand 50:31 Be offensive, say horrible shit, ball bust. I mean, schoo- I make school shooting jokes and people go, "How do you do that?" I'm like, "Well, maybe that's how I deal with it."

Lex Fridman 50:39 Yeah.

Mark Normand 50:40 You know? Like, how come I gotta, I gotta empathize the way you do? Maybe we're different.

Lex Fridman 50:47 All right, so now let's skip the whole open mic thing and-

Mark Normand 50:51 (laughs)

Lex Fridman 50:51 ... crafting jokes.

Mark Normand 50:53 Oh, yeah.

Lex Fridman 50:53 Uh-

Mark Normand 50:54 That's tough.

Lex Fridman 50:55 Kerouac said, "One day I will find the right words and they will be simple." When do you know the joke is done, it's perfect? You're, uh, somebody that does like, really sharp like, (snaps fingers) fast, uh, jokes well.

Mark Normand 51:12 Oh, thanks.

Lex Fridman 51:13 So like, there, there's somebody... I don't know. I don't know who you see yourself in the same school as, like Had... You're, you're-

Mark Normand 51:21 Mmm.

Lex Fridman 51:21 You're darker and faster than Hedberg, I think, in terms of like, just... I don't know, the turns you take are very f- (laughs)

Mark Normand 51:28 (laughs) Hey, thanks. I appreciate it. I think I got some Norm MacDonald and maybe-

Lex Fridman 51:32 Norm, Norm... That's right, Norm.

Mark Normand 51:33 You know?

Lex Fridman 51:33 Yeah.

Mark Normand 51:33 A little... Obviously Norm, but, uh, Chris Rock was huge for me. Chris R- old, like '90s Chris Rock was like, I didn't know you could do jokes like that. I always loved George Carlin and Groucho Marx and Bill Murray. There's so many different types of comedy, but, uh, when I saw the Bigger and Blacker Bring the Pain, I was like, "Oh my God." This like, it hit me, so that was big. And then Norm's just like the funniest guy on the planet, so him, him being the smartest guy in the room but acting dumb was great. So, uh, yeah, uh, Chris Rock has that way of cutting to the, the bullshit, which I, I mentioned earlier. I like that cutting through the bullshit kind of style of comedy because you kind of go, "Oh, I'm not crazy. That's what I thought too. I was too scared to say it, but I thought that and he's saying it and a room of people are laughing. Maybe I'm not an idiot." So that helped me.

Lex Fridman 52:23 So it's observational, but not Jerry Sein-

Mark Normand 52:27 Yes.

Lex Fridman 52:27 ... ph- observational. It's like, look, going to the darker thing-

Mark Normand 52:30 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 52:30 ... to, to the like, within society.

Mark Normand 52:32 It's also great, but... I like him too, but seeing it, doing it about stuff like, in your life, society.

Lex Fridman 52:39 Yeah. Race, gender, government-

Mark Normand 52:41 Yes.

Lex Fridman 52:42 ... politics, all that kind of stuff.

Mark Normand 52:43 Exactly.

Lex Fridman 52:43 Getting in there.

Mark Normand 52:44 Exactly. Sex, human emotions, jealousy, whatever it is. That, that's the good stuff.

Lex Fridman 52:50 How'd you feel when Norm passed away?

Mark Normand 52:52 Ah, that was a bummer because, uh, he was, you know, what? 61? And uh, I just didn't see it coming and I just... I've, I've watched so many hours of his stuff and I've, I've met him and he- he's like... He was like this comedic bar, like, "Hey, we got Norm," you know? There's so much shit comedy, then you see Norm and you're like, "This is next level. This is savant type shit." And then to lose him is like, ah. Norm had m- 20 more years at least of just content and content and thoughts and his point of view and that's... We'll never get that and that sucks.

Lex Fridman 53:27 Yeah. There is something about artists, like Jimi Hendrix dying-

Mark Normand 53:31 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 53:31 ... too early. It's like, you wonder.

Mark Normand 53:34 What was next?

Lex Fridman 53:35 Yeah. What was next? But then part of it is like, um... You know, it all ends for all of us and it's... Like, walking away early is, um... It's kind of admirable. It's almost like, "I did a pretty good job."

Mark Normand 53:50 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 53:51 "I'm, uh, I'm, I'm good with that." And especially the way he did, which is not telling anybody.

Mark Normand 53:56 I know. Nine years, his best friends didn't even know, and in this world of like, victimhood and I need clicks and I need people to love me, he could have... He got, you know, canceled and yelled at and in trouble and he could have pulled that cancer card and he never did. I mean, the integrity on this motherfucker.

Lex Fridman 54:11 Did you get a chance to interact with him? Like what... How much... How often did you meet him?

Mark Normand 54:15 I met him once at the Comedy Cellar and we chatted for five minutes and then he went on and did the, the Letterman set that he did. He was running the Letterman set, and uh, sweet guy, nice guy. I didn't know him that well, but... I mean, he's just brilliant and I also love a brilliant guy who does stupid stuff. That's a fun, fun little combo there, like silly guys who are actually brilliant also. You know, like Louis C.K. is a brilliant comic and he'll do a, a joke about farting on a kid and you're like, that's great that he still finds farts funny and he's also this comedic genius guy.

Lex Fridman 54:52 Yeah.

Mark Normand 54:52 I like that.

Lex Fridman 54:53 It doesn't really acknowledge the genius.

Mark Normand 54:55 Yeah. Yeah.

Lex Fridman 54:56 Like that's... yeah. I like, I like smart people that are silly.

Mark Normand 55:00 Yes. That's a good combo.

Lex Fridman 55:02 (laughs)

Mark Normand 55:02 Like you said Elon is silly.

Lex Fridman 55:04 Yeah, yeah,

Narrator 55:04 super silly.

Mark Normand 55:04 Yeah, that's great.

Lex Fridman 55:05 Yeah.

Mark Normand 55:06 'Cause we, we taught, we teach kids like, "Hey put that down. Stop that. Quit cutting up. Quit horsing around." But maybe that's some kind of sign of brilliance there.

Lex Fridman 55:15 Yeah. Being like childlike and silly-

Mark Normand 55:18 Yes.

Lex Fridman 55:18 ... is, is a kind of wisdom.

Mark Normand 55:19 Yes.

Lex Fridman 55:19 I feel like those people are way wiser than the people that, no offense to me, wear a suit and take themselves way too seriously.

Mark Normand 55:26 No, but you got a spark in you.

Lex Fridman 55:28 A little bit.

Mark Normand 55:28 You're, you got a little, uh, what's the word? Not, uh, elf. Imp. A little imp in you. Give that a goog. You know about imp?

Lex Fridman 55:37 Uh, yeah, let's look up-

Mark Normand 55:38 A little mischievous. It's like a little, uh...

Lex Fridman 55:40 Is that a, a Tolkien character? Imp.

Mark Normand 55:43 Yeah, it might be.

Lex Fridman 55:43 An imp is a European mythological being similar to a fairy or a de- are you calling me a fairy?

Mark Normand 55:48 Well...

Lex Fridman 55:49 Frequently d- no, okay. Similar to a fairy or a demon.

Mark Normand 55:53 Ooh, so that's-

Lex Fridman 55:53 I feel like that's a big leap.

Mark Normand 55:55 Big leap, yeah. That's not a great, um, info bio there.

Lex Fridman 55:58 Frequently described in folklore and superstition, the word may perhaps derive from the term imp, spelled with a Y, used to denote a young grafted tree.

Mark Normand 56:08 Mm-hmm.

Lex Fridman 56:09 Oh.

Mark Normand 56:10 It's a little mischievous. You got a twinkle.

Lex Fridman 56:12 Yeah.

Mark Normand 56:12 You're this serious, buttoned-up guy.

Lex Fridman 56:13 Yeah, yeah.

Mark Normand 56:13 But there, there's a twinkle.

Lex Fridman 56:14 There's a twinkle. Oh.

Mark Normand 56:16 And the audience can see the twinkle, and that's why you resonate, I think. (laughs) I'm sorry.

Lex Fridman 56:22 Deep analysis by Mark Normand, psychological analysis. Okay, but then back to the crafting of the joke, you said Chris Rock and Norm MacDonald. Like what, for you, um, how do you know when the joke is like done? Is, are there some jokes where you're like, are proud of, like, "Wow, that, that's uh, that's well done"?

Mark Normand 56:41 Yeah. Yeah, the joke is done... it's a tough question 'cause there's so many different kinds of jokes. There's what we call a chunk, which is a big idea with a bunch of jokes in the middle of it, and then a big crescendo at the end. Or there's a one-liner, or there's a tag of a joke that's also a joke. So the jokes come in different, uh... like I have a joke where I say, "I met my girl on that Jewish app." What's that Jewish app called? Uh, uh, PayPal.

Lex Fridman 57:08 Nice.

Mark Normand 57:09 (laughs) That's the kind of, that's the reaction you want from the, uh, the crowd. But-

Lex Fridman 57:14 (laughs)

Mark Normand 57:14 ... it's a fun turn 'cause you say your thing, and then I hit you with a misdirect. And that's what a joke is. A joke is basically me saying something that makes sense but you didn't see it coming.

Lex Fridman 57:24 Yeah.

Mark Normand 57:24 And that's a perfect example of that. So, uh, that joke took forever to figure out, by the way, you know? And, uh...

Lex Fridman 57:29 But you have to go through different services like PayPal, c-

Mark Normand 57:32 Venmo.

Lex Fridman 57:32 Like what, what's funniest?

Mark Normand 57:33 Exactly. And I figured PayPal is funny 'cause it has the word pay in it.

Lex Fridman 57:37 Yeah.

Mark Normand 57:37 You know? Venmo, it's also not really a good word. Venmo? PayPal, it just hits better.

Lex Fridman 57:43 Yeah. PayPal is funnier somehow.

Mark Normand 57:44 It's funnier somehow, and that's the beauty of comedy. There's a weird little magic into it. You can get technical all day and formulaic, but there's still that little bit of, uh, fairy dust that you don't know why this is funnier.

Lex Fridman 57:55 Or imp dust.

Mark Normand 57:56 Imp dust. Yes.

Lex Fridman 57:58 With a Y. Okay.

Mark Normand 58:00 So you know a joke is done when it kills and it f... there's, there's a roundness to a joke, when you feel like this is buttoned up, there's, this is done here.

Lex Fridman 58:07 Yeah. Is simplicity the right word there?

Mark Normand 58:10 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 58:10 Is, is it like you're chopping stuff away or are you adding stuff? Like what does it feel like?

Mark Normand 58:14 Simplicity is always the best angle. I mean, you can get real high concept with a joke and still make it work, but the simpler, the better. I saw, uh, Dave Chappelle on stage once, and Chris Rock and Demetri Martin were in the back watching in awe. And Dave Chappelle, I can't remember the joke, but he said something about sex or women, and Demetri Martin goes, "Ah, it's a little easy." And Chris Rock goes, "That's why it's good." And I remember hearing that as a young comic like, "Aah," I'm getting this like, you know, comedy lesson right here from these two titans. And so that was fun. Simple is key.

Lex Fridman 58:49 So the easy is okay. That, that's such a weird, uh... I, I, I think I remember, um, reading or hearing Eminem say something about maybe the song Slim Sha-... the, one of the songs. He's like, "I knew it was gonna be good because it got like really repetitive and annoying very quickly," something like that.

Mark Normand 59:07 (laughs)

Lex Fridman 59:08 I mean, that's the, the sort of the music equivalent of, um, it's too easy.

Mark Normand 59:12 Right.

Lex Fridman 59:12 Like if it's like super catchy, as a musician, you might get very quickly bored of it.

Mark Normand 59:19 Right.

Lex Fridman 59:19 Uh, or like as you're creating it, no, it's too, it's too easy. It's t- uh, it's like there needs to be some more complexity to it, but...

Mark Normand 59:26 I like complexity, but the best guys who, are the ones who make complex shit look simple. Like b- you ever heard that, uh, Ben Franklin story? Where he's talking to his friend, his friend's like, "I'm gonna start a hat store." So he puts a sign out, says, "Hats for sale, $12." And, and Ben Franklin looks at it, he goes, "Uh, well, you don't need the $12 'cause, you know, you get... all they need to know is that you got hats for sale." He's like, "All right." So he loses the $12, makes a new sign, "Hats for sale." And he goes, "You don't, you don't really need for sale because it's a business. People can put that together." So he just goes, "All right." He makes a new sign, it says, "Hats." And then Ben Franklin's like, "You know, you don't really need the word hat. You can just put a picture of a hat." And he made a new sign with just a picture of a hat, and it like helped the business or something.

Lex Fridman 1:00:10 Yeah.

Mark Normand 1:00:10 That's like some old wives' tale or whatever. But I think about that all the time when I'm writing.

Lex Fridman 1:00:15 I thought this was going to like, there was no sign. It went like super like-

Mark Normand 1:00:18 Oh, maybe.

Lex Fridman 1:00:19 ... uh, nihilistic.

Mark Normand 1:00:20 Maybe that could work, too.

Lex Fridman 1:00:22 Uh, what, like as a comedian, so I'm, I'm a fan of yours. I enjoy, I really enjoy you in conversations. Like 'cause you're-

Mark Normand 1:00:30 Wow. Now? I'm getting nothing out of you.

Lex Fridman 1:00:31 No, I'm, this, this is... (laughs)

Mark Normand 1:00:33 All right. I can't tell.

Lex Fridman 1:00:33 Oh, like emotion?

Mark Normand 1:00:35 Well, you're a tough nut to read.

Lex Fridman 1:00:36 I'm cold inside.

Mark Normand 1:00:37 (laughs)

Lex Fridman 1:00:38 I mean, just the quickness you have. Uh, uh, obviously you're also a great standup comedian. What's your favorite medium to shine in? So you have, uh, a podcast yourself, an excellent podcast.

Mark Normand 1:00:50 Mm-hmm. Thanks.

Lex Fridman 1:00:51 Um, you're often the podcast guest.

Mark Normand 1:00:53 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 1:00:54 Um, which is always fun to listen to, how you're gonna deal with the different people.

Mark Normand 1:00:58 Mm-hmm.

Lex Fridman 1:00:58 You're great on Rogan.

Mark Normand 1:01:00 Oh, thanks.

Lex Fridman 1:01:01 Um-What, what, what do you enjoy most?

Mark Normand 1:01:04 Podcasts are great because you can, you can stretch out a little more, you can breathe a little. You know, with a standup set, I like to be like boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, but podcasts are great 'cause it's conversational so you can be ... It's almost like you're being funny with your friends.

Lex Fridman 1:01:17 Yeah.

Mark Normand 1:01:18 Whereas the stage is like a, this is a piece, this is a presentation. Uh, but I think the, the podcast is great, but you don't get the reaction. Unless the host is laughing, you can't hear the guy in his car in New Jersey driving to work going, "Ah!" Every now and then I'll read a comment like, "I spit out my coffee when you said this," and I'm like ... But it's not immediate. You want the immediate. So standup will always be number one, but there's no better feeling than killing in a room of people who don't know who you are, strangers, you're in the middle of nowhere, you left your wife at home, you left your kids, you left your house. You're in the middle of Bumfuck, Dickville and murdering for these hillbilly, nobody, whatever it is.

Lex Fridman 1:01:58 (laughs)

Mark Normand 1:01:58 And they're slinging their beers and woo! Cheering you on and they carry you out and you fuck some fat lady and you leave and you get back to your hotel and you go, "Holy shit, what was that?" No one will ever know about it, just lost in the ether. That's the best feeling.

Lex Fridman 1:02:14 Yeah.

Mark Normand 1:02:15 Killing in obscurity, as Bill Burr would say.

Lex Fridman 1:02:19 Yeah, this is one of the things that sucks about giving lectures, like at universities or giving lectures in general, is when you look at, uh, the audience, you know, several hundred students, they're all have a bored look on their face.

Mark Normand 1:02:36 Yeah, of course.

Lex Fridman 1:02:36 Like even, like my, my face now probably looks bored, but I'm actually excited to be talking to you.

Mark Normand 1:02:42 (laughs)

Lex Fridman 1:02:42 But there's something about just, uh, there's something about a comedy club, maybe the s- the contagion of laughter, but like, it gives people the freedom to just laugh, to like s-

Mark Normand 1:02:52 Yes.

Lex Fridman 1:02:52 ... to remove that façade of like, you don't have to, you don't have to pretend like you don't care. Like if you care, you can show it and you can have fun with it a lot.

Mark Normand 1:03:01 Yes.

Lex Fridman 1:03:01 Probably liquor is, helps out too.

Mark Normand 1:03:03 It helps.

Lex Fridman 1:03:03 Yeah.

Mark Normand 1:03:04 It helps for sure. But there is a, especially ... And that's why comedy I think is so popular right now, because HR is up our ass. We're scared of old tweets that might come back to haunt us. What did I say on that interview? Uh ... Even people at offices are like, "I put something on Facebook in 1999 that was about fat tits that I liked. Should I get rid of that?" Even people say like, "There's no cancel," whatever. There is something in the air right now that wasn't there before.

Lex Fridman 1:03:32 Yeah, yeah.

Mark Normand 1:03:32 It's the video, "I'm a Karen, I got caught at Trader Joe," whatever it is. This, people rat on each other now. Everybody's tattle-taling 'cause they want the clicks. It's a horrible society we've crafted.

Lex Fridman 1:03:42 Yeah.

Mark Normand 1:03:42 But standup comedy gets you to come out, and now people do it at standup shows too sadly, but it gets you to come out and let that inhibition down like ... 'Cause we're all human. We've all had the fucked up thoughts like, "Man, that guy's fat as shit." It doesn't mean you hate the guy, doesn't mean you hate fat people, doesn't mean you're fat shaming, but you can't say that at the office. You can't go, "Bob, you're fat as shit." You'll get fired for body shaming. But at the club you go, "That guy's fat as shit" and the crowd goes, "He is fat as shit. Ah!"

Lex Fridman 1:04:10 (laughs)

Mark Normand 1:04:10 And it's this weird cathartic thing 'cause all we do is tamp shit down. It's kind of like you ever meet a girl who's like all prim and proper then in the bedroom she's like, "Put a lamp up my ass. Ah!" You know, whatever it is. It's 'cause we gotta get it out. We're all repressed in some way.

Lex Fridman 1:04:24 Yeah. So I guess what you're saying is, uh, comedy's important.

Mark Normand 1:04:28 (laughs) Yes!

Lex Fridman 1:04:30 (laughs)

Mark Normand 1:04:30 Callback.

Lex Fridman 1:04:31 All right.

Mark Normand 1:04:32 Well played, sir.

Lex Fridman 1:04:33 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 1:04:34 What do you think about Austin? What do you think about the comedy scene in Austin? We talked about LA and New York. What do you think about what Joe's trying to create there? So I l- I'll t- I, I should say that the reason I moved to Austin, I have this dream of, uh, li- wouldn't it be funny if I said this dream of becoming a comedian?

Mark Normand 1:04:50 Oh God.

Lex Fridman 1:04:52 (laughs)

Mark Normand 1:04:52 You got an audience at least.

Lex Fridman 1:04:54 Yeah, that's true. You know, I always said you can hear the music in the distance. I, you know, I have this dream around robotics and artificial intelligence, whether it's a company, whether it's something else that, uh, was just pulling me to do ... I actually wanted to move to San Francisco and then all my friends in San Francisco said, "No, it's the wrong place."

Mark Normand 1:05:10 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 1:05:10 To, to, uh ... It's no, it's, at this time, the, the cyn- the cynicism there is just not conducive to like taking big leaps into the unknown, excited about the future kind of thing. And, and Austin was that, uh, w- with, um, for me in particular with Elon Musk, but also just the energy that everybody had, including Joe, the excitement about the future.

Mark Normand 1:05:34 Mm-hmm.

Lex Fridman 1:05:34 I don't, I don't care if Austin burns to the ground and it actually is a complete failure. Uh, being excited about the future seems to be, like optimism about the future seems to be the thing, uh, that actually makes that future happen, makes a great future happen. So it's always cool for me to see, uh, like Joe super excited about creating like, um, a culture in Austin, like a, making it a comedy hub like ...

Mark Normand 1:06:01 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 1:06:01 I don't want to overstate it, but he, I mean, I think he really believes it's, it'll be a very big place for comedy-

Mark Normand 1:06:08 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 1:06:08 ... in the United States in general, in the world. And so just even believing that, that's powerful. Like ...

Mark Normand 1:06:13 I agree.

Lex Fridman 1:06:13 ... 'cause you start to make it, you start to make it happen. That energy, uh, is there. Anyway, so but that's for me from just an outsider watching, uh, the fun of it. I should also mention for less of an outsider, more insider of, in the martial arts world, partially probably because of Joe, I'm not sure, but John Danaher, uh, Gordon Ryan, the B Team, all of those folks, those are ... That might be gibberish to you.

Mark Normand 1:06:39 Mm-hmm.

Lex Fridman 1:06:39 But, uh, those are like some of the greatest grapplers and martial artists of all time.

Mark Normand 1:06:43 Oh, really?

Lex Fridman 1:06:43 So it's also becoming this hub-

Mark Normand 1:06:45 Ooh.

Lex Fridman 1:06:46 ... of martial arts.

Mark Normand 1:06:46 I didn't know that.

Lex Fridman 1:06:47 So the whole, the whole thing is, is just beautiful. Anyway, what, uh, what are your thoughts about that scene? Yeah.

Mark Normand 1:06:52 Well, there's a lot, lot here, a lot of things to mention. One, I think Joe did do that to an, uh, at a degree, you know? Like all these people, Segura lives there now, a lot of comics live there. He's opening clubs. Other clubs are opening.I think it's happening. That's the other thing is people go, "Everybody's moving to Austin. Austin's the new hub," and then they look at their watch and they go, "Five minutes went by and nothing changed." It's gonna take years, you know, but everybody wants it now, now, now. Um, "What? Austin? There's no industry there," you know, "There's no Netflix, whatever." And you're like, "Yeah, I know, but it, it needs a minute. You can't just do this overnight." So people forget that. So it could happen, huge, just give it some time. I mean, he's opening a club. I went and saw it. It's incredible. Like, it's so perfect for comedy, it's every detail, it's incredible. But, uh, so... it could happen still. I do think we're ƒ there's a little biting off more than they can chew with Austin because it's not that big. So like-

Lex Fridman 1:07:51 And it's spread out. I mean, yeah, it's not big. And the, and the infrastructure's not quite there-

Mark Normand 1:07:55 Exactly.

Lex Fridman 1:07:56 ... to support it. But it has a lot of, uh, you know, comparing from my, from the tech side for, uh, it has a lot of land to expand into.

Mark Normand 1:08:05 True.

Lex Fridman 1:08:05 So it might become this, um-

Mark Normand 1:08:06 That helps.

Lex Fridman 1:08:07 Like, you're basically establishing, it's kind of like when New York, you're, you're establishing these whole neighborhoods.

Mark Normand 1:08:12 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 1:08:12 And you have the freedom to do that because there's a lot of space on all sides.

Mark Normand 1:08:17 Yes, okay, so that helps. So again, maybe some time. Uh, I do agree with this th- that new hope that's kind of built into human beings of like, "Let's go to America! Let's go to utopia." We even have it with space. "Let's go to Mars! We gotta see what's over there." And it's just red, dusty bullshit, but you still gotta go. So I, I'm with you on that, about this new hope, this new land, uh, and I think that is beautiful. And I think there's a lot of haters and there's a lot of naysayers who hate change, who hate anything new. And then I think you gotta go, "Hey, that hurts, that sucks, but blow me, dickless. I'm trying something, you're a loser. Stop hating on me." I mean, how many people hate Elon Musk, you know?

Lex Fridman 1:08:59 Yeah, it's hilarious. I mean, there's, uh, some of the criticism on Austin l- would be, it's like a fad. It's like a, a lot of people are really-

Mark Normand 1:09:06 Fad, yeah.

Lex Fridman 1:09:06 ... are really, people are excited about Austin, and somehow that's like, uh, it's like when Green Day became famous, you no longer want to, uh-

Mark Normand 1:09:13 Right.

Lex Fridman 1:09:14 ... be a fan of Green Day. But to me, like, that's, um-

Mark Normand 1:09:17 Well, Austin was already a cool town.

Lex Fridman 1:09:18 Yeah.

Mark Normand 1:09:19 Like, every comic five years ago was like, "Ooh, I got, I got Austin this weekend, I can't wait."

Lex Fridman 1:09:23 Yeah.

Mark Normand 1:09:24 So it already had a buzz, but some people think maybe the buzz was the cool part, the fact that it was like this off the beaten path city-

Lex Fridman 1:09:32 Yeah.

Mark Normand 1:09:33 ... and now I get to visit it and then leave. But I think it could still be this comedy, tech booming place, it just will take some time and people want it right now.

Lex Fridman 1:09:43 Well, on the tech side, it's, um-

Mark Normand 1:09:47 It's already there?

Lex Fridman 1:09:47 ... it's, it's, it's getting there very fast. So I mean, Elon's really pushing that with the factory. There's just a g- huge number of people are, are moving there with jobs.

Mark Normand 1:09:58 Mm-hmm.

Lex Fridman 1:09:58 Like, you're already starting. And then the opportunities to launch new companies is just incredible. I guess it's not right now, it's like within months, within a year, that kind of thing. But like, it's an opportunity to just start to build shit in a new place. And it's cool.

Mark Normand 1:10:15 I agree.

Lex Fridman 1:10:15 It's kind of like, you know, going to Mars. It's like we get to start over.

Mark Normand 1:10:18 Yeah. And I like the hope aspect. I think that's huge for people. And, uh, I'm, I'm all for it. I hope it works out. I don't know if it will, but I don't know anything about economies and city sca- planning and all that shit. So it might be too early to say, but I hope it works.

Lex Fridman 1:10:35 Are you still talking about Austin or Mars?

Mark Normand 1:10:37 Austin. Mars is, eh. There's nothing there. There's no vagina there, there's no food there, there's no water there. I don't know, it seems... I get space travel. I think it's important. But I, I don't know Mars is really gonna move the needle.

Lex Fridman 1:10:55 So w- what are your thoughts about, uh, Elon Musk and SpaceX and launching rockets into space? Like-

Mark Normand 1:11:01 I think it's all good because you could say, "Hey, we could just feed everybody," and it's like, yeah, that's true. By the way, these guys give a ton of money to, like, philanthropy shit that nobody cares about, by the way. You know, it's weird. Like, "He could feed, uh, Ni- Nigeria and, with pocket change of his." And you're like, "Well, maybe he has."

Lex Fridman 1:11:19 (laughs)

Mark Normand 1:11:19 You know, like, I heard Bill Gates gave back so much money, he saved six million lives.

Lex Fridman 1:11:23 Yeah.

Mark Normand 1:11:23 But that's a reverse Holocaust, by the way. That's pretty good. What have you done? You're a barista. So, uh, you know, I, I just think, uh, I think space travel is good because you learn about the place you're living in from going to space. It kind of helps you learn about this more. You could say, "What's the point of going, there's nothing there." But it, it, it does help, I think.

Lex Fridman 1:11:46 Yeah, doing difficult things in the engineering space seems to be a way to develop, like, as a, as almost like an accident, as a side effect of doing a really difficult thing in a team of brilliant people. Y- you develop things like the internet.

Mark Normand 1:12:01 That's it.

Lex Fridman 1:12:01 And you can argue that the internet maybe is not so good for society. No, I'm just kidding. I-

Mark Normand 1:12:05 It's good and bad.

Lex Fridman 1:12:06 Yeah. But-

Mark Normand 1:12:07 But it's like a pull-up. You're trying to get your bicep going, but hey, b- before you know it, you got decent forearms.

Lex Fridman 1:12:12 Mm-hmm.

Mark Normand 1:12:12 But you weren't working on the forearms, you wanted the bi, but you got the fore. And I think that's kind of what space travel is.

Lex Fridman 1:12:18 I like how this, like, pivoted into, uh, to a workout routine advice-

Mark Normand 1:12:22 (laughs)

Lex Fridman 1:12:22 ... with Mark Rober-

Mark Normand 1:12:22 I'm trying to get, uh, an analogy going here.

Lex Fridman 1:12:25 All right. It worked pretty well.

Mark Normand 1:12:26 I'll take it.

Lex Fridman 1:12:27 All right. What are your thoughts about... since I'm a robotics person, I'd be curious to see, like, what, um, do you think about the space at all about, first of all, autonomous vehicles with, uh, Tesla Autopilot and, uh, Waymo self-driving car? I'm not sure if you're familiar with all the autonomous vehicles and so on.

Mark Normand 1:12:48 Oh, yeah.

Lex Fridman 1:12:48 So those are-

Mark Normand 1:12:49 Got one.

Lex Fridman 1:12:49 ... robots on wheels, and then there's also legged robots. So next time you're in Austin, you get to meet some of the legged robots-

Mark Normand 1:12:56 I would love to.

Lex Fridman 1:12:57 ... uh, been working on. And I, I find those kind of, um, a fascinating way to explore the nature of intelligence in our computers, but also explore our own intelligence and also explore our own, um-Like, what makes us connect to other living beings, whether it's dogs, cats or other humans. Like-

Mark Normand 1:13:24 Mm-hmm.

Lex Fridman 1:13:24 ... there's some magic there-

Mark Normand 1:13:26 Of course.

Lex Fridman 1:13:26 ... that, that's beyond just intelligence. And I, like when I have the robot dog, there's some aspect to it that, I don't know, brings me joy in a way that a dog does, in a way that a good friend does.

Mark Normand 1:13:38 Really?

Lex Fridman 1:13:38 Yeah. I mean-

Mark Normand 1:13:38 Oh, that's interesting.

Lex Fridman 1:13:39 And s- I'm not sure if that's some kind of