Mark Zuckerberg: First Interview in the Metaverse | Lex Fridman Podcast #398

Lex Fridman 0:00 The following is a conversation with Mark Zuckerberg inside the Metaverse. Mark and I are hundreds of miles apart from each other in physical space, but it feels like we're in the same room because we appear to each other as photo-real Kodiak Avatars in 3D with spatial audio. This technology is incredible, and I think it's the future of how human beings connect to each other in a deeply meaningful way on the internet. These avatars can capture many of the nuances of facial expressions that we use- we humans use to communicate emotion to each other. Now, I just need to work on upgrading my emotion-expressing capabilities of the underlying human. This is the Lex Fridman podcast. And now, dear friends, here's Mark Zuckerberg.

Lex Fridman 0:54 Wow. (laughs) This is so great. Lighting change. Wow.

Mark Zuckerberg 1:16 Uh, yeah, we can put the light anywhere.

Lex Fridman 1:19 And it doesn't feel awkward to be really close to you?

Mark Zuckerberg 1:22 No, it does. I actually moved you- I moved you back a few feet before you got into the-

Lex Fridman 1:25 Well-

Mark Zuckerberg 1:25 ... headset. You were, like, right here.

Lex Fridman 1:28 I don't know if people can see this, but this is incredible. The realism here is just incredible. Where am I? Where are you, Mark? Where, where, where are we?

Mark Zuckerberg 1:39 You're in Austin, right?

Lex Fridman 1:41 No, I mean, this place. (laughs)

Mark Zuckerberg 1:43 Oh. (laughs)

Lex Fridman 1:43 We're, we're, we're shrouded by darkness with ultra-realistic face and it just feels like we're in the same room. This is really the most incredible thing I've ever seen. And sorry to be in your personal space.

Mark Zuckerberg 1:56 I mean...

Lex Fridman 1:57 We have done jujitsu before.

Mark Zuckerberg 1:58 Yeah. No, I was- I was commenting to the team before that even that w- I, I feel like we've choked each other from further distances than it feels-

Lex Fridman 2:06 (laughs)

Mark Zuckerberg 2:06 ... like we are right now.

Lex Fridman 2:08 I mean, this is just really incredible. I don't know how to describe it with words. It really feels like... It feels like we're in the same room.

Mark Zuckerberg 2:17 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 2:17 It feels like the future.

Mark Zuckerberg 2:20 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 2:20 This is truly, truly incredible. I just want to take it in. I'm still getting used to it. It's like, it's you, it's really you, but you're not here with me, right? You're there wearing a headset and I'm wearing a headset. It's qu- it's really, really incredible. So what, um... Can you describe what it takes currently for us to appear so photorealistic to each other?

Mark Zuckerberg 2:44 Yeah. So, I mean, for, for background, we both did these scans for, uh, this research project that, that we have at Meta called Kodiak Avatars. And the idea is that instead of actually- instead of our avatars being cartoony, um, and instead of actually transmitting a video, what it does is we've sort of scanned ourselves and a lot of different expressions and we've built a computer model of sort of each of our faces and, and bodies and, um, the different expressions that we make and collapse that into a, a Kodiak that then when you have the headset on your head, it can... It, it sees your face, it sees your expression, and it can basically send, um, an encoded version of what you're supposed to look like over the wire. So, um, so in addition to being photorealistic, it's also actually much more bandwidth efficient than transmitting a, a full video or especially a 3D immersive video of, of a whole scene like this.

Lex Fridman 3:47 And it captures everything, like, the flaws. Like, to me, the subtleties of the human face, like even the flaws, that's, like, that's all amazing. It makes you, uh... It makes it so much more immersive. It makes you realize that, like, perfection isn't the thing that leads to immersion. It's, like, the little subtle flaws like freckles and, like, variations in color and just-

Mark Zuckerberg 4:11 Yeah. Wrinkles.

Lex Fridman 4:12 ... all stuff about-

Mark Zuckerberg 4:14 Asymmetry.

Lex Fridman 4:15 ... noses. Yeah, asymmetry.

Mark Zuckerberg 4:15 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 4:15 And just the different, like, the corners of the eyes, like, what your eyes do when you smile, all that kind of stuff.

Mark Zuckerberg 4:20 Yeah. Eyes are, are a huge part of it. Yeah. I mean, there's all the studies that most of communication, even when people are speaking is not actually the words that they're saying, right? It's, it's kind of the expression and, and all that, so... And we try to capture that with, uh, kind of classical, um, expressive avatar system that we have. That's the kind of more cartoon designed one. You can, you can kind of put those kind of expressions on those faces as well. But there, there's obviously a certain realism that comes with delivering kind of this photorealistic experience that, um, I, I, I don't know, I just think it's really magical. I mean, this gets to kind of the core of what the vision around virtual and augmented reality is, of like delivering a sense of presence as if you're there together no matter where you actually are in the world. And I mean, this, this, uh, experience, I think is a good embodiment of that, where it's like, I mean, we're in two completely different states halfway across the country and it just like, you know, looks like you're just sitting right in front of me. It's, uh, it's pretty wild.

Lex Fridman 5:17 Yeah. I mean, I, I can't... It's... I'm almost getting emotional. It's like it feels like a, a totally... It's fundamentally new experience. Like, for me to have this kind of conversations with loved ones, it would just change everything. Maybe just to elaborate. So the- I went to Pittsburgh and went through the whole scanning procedure, which has so much incredible, uh, technology, so- s- software and hardware going on. Um, but it is a lengthy process. So w- what's your vision for the future of this, uh, in terms of making this more accessible to people?

Mark Zuckerberg 5:50 You know, it starts off with a small number of people doing these, um, very detailed scans, right? Which is this, that's the version that you did and that I did. And, you know, before there are a lot of people who, who we've done this kind of a scan for, we probably need to kind of over collect, um...... expressions, um, when we're doing the scanning, because we haven't figured out how much we can reduce that down to a really streamlined process.

Lex Fridman 6:17 Mm-hmm.

Mark Zuckerberg 6:18 Um, and extrapolate from the- the- the scans that have already been done. But, you know, the goal, and we have a project that's working on this already, is just to do a very quick scan with your cell phone where you just take your phone, kind of wave it in front of your face for a couple of minutes, um, you know, say a few sentences, make a bunch of expressions, um, but overall have the whole process just be two to three minutes, and then produce something that's of the quality of what we have right now. So, I think that that's one of the big challenges that remains. And right now, we have the ability to do the scans if you, you know, have h- hours to sit for one. And with today's technology, I mean, you're using a- a meta headset that exists. It's a product that's kind of for sale now. You can drive these with that. Um, but the production of- of, um, these scans in- in a very efficient way is one of the last pieces that we still need to really nail. And then obviously, there's all the experiences around it. I mean, right now, we're- we're kind of sitting in a dark room, which, um, you know, is- is, you know, familiar for- for your podcast. But I think part of the- the vision for this over time is, um, is, you know, not just having this be like a video call. I mean, that's fine. It's- it's cool, or it- it feels like it's immersive. But, um, you know, you can- you can do a video call on your phone. The thing that you can do in the metaverse that is different from what you can do on a phone is, like, doing stuff where you're physically there together and- and participating in things together. And we could play games like this. Um, we could have meetings, uh, like this in- in- in- in the future once you mix, um, once you get mixed reality and augmented reality, we could have Codec avatars like this and go into a meeting and have some people physically there and have some people show up in this photorealistic form, uh, superimposed on the- on the physical e- environment. I think that stuff like that is gonna be super powerful. So we gotta still build out all those kind of applications and the use cases around it. But, uh, I don't know. I think it's gonna be a pretty wild, uh, next few years around this.

Lex Fridman 8:16 I mean, I just... I- I'm actually almost at a loss for words. This is just so incredible. This is truly incredible. I- I hope that people, like, watching this can get a glimpse of, like, how incredible it is. It really feels like we're in the same room. Like, there is that, um... I guess there's an uncanny valley that seems to have been crossed here. Like, it looks like you.

Mark Zuckerberg 8:36 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 8:37 Like, the real you.

Mark Zuckerberg 8:37 I mean, I think there's still a bunch of tuning that I think we'll want to do, where different people emote to different extents, right?

Lex Fridman 8:46 Okay.

Mark Zuckerberg 8:46 So, I think one of the big questions is, you know, like, when you smile, how wide is your smile, and how wide do you want your smile to be? Um, and I think getting that to be tuned on a per-person basis is, um, is gonna be one of the things that we- that we're gonna need to figure out. Um, you know, it's like, to what extent do you want to give people control over that? Um, you know, some people might try to... you know, m- might- might prefer a version of themselves that's more emotive in their avatar than their actual face is. You know, so for example, you know, I- I always get a lot of, um, critique and- and shit for, um, for- for having like a relatively stiff, uh, expression. But, you know, I mean, I- I might- I might feel pretty happy but just make a pretty small smile. So, I mean, maybe, you know, for- for me, I would- I... it's actually, you know, it's like I'd wanna have my avatar really be able to better express, um, like, how I'm feeling than- than what... (laughs) than- than how I can do physically. So, I think that there's a question about how you want to tune that. But, um, but overall, yeah. I mean, you... we're- we want to start from the baseline of capturing how people actually emote and express themselves. And I mean, I think the- the initial version of this is... has been pretty impressive. And like you said, um, I do think we're- we're kind of beyond the- the uncanny valley here, where it... and it does feel like you. It doesn't feel, uh, it doesn't feel weird or anything like that.

Lex Fridman 10:05 I mean, that's gonna be the meme, that the two most monotone people are in a- in a metaverse together. But I think that actually makes it more difficult. Like, the- the- the amazing thing here is that the subtleties of the expression of the eyes... you know, people say I'm monotone and emotionless, but I'm not. It's just this... maybe my expression of emotion (laughs) is more subtle usually, like, with the eyes. And that's one of the things I've noticed, is just how expressive the subtle movement of the corners of the eyes are in terms of displaying happiness or boredom or all that kind of stuff.

Mark Zuckerberg 10:39 I am curious to see, just 'cause I've never done one of these before. I've never done a podcast as- as one of these Codec avatars.

Lex Fridman 10:44 (laughs)

Mark Zuckerberg 10:45 Um, and- and I'm curious-

Lex Fridman 10:47 Yeah.

Mark Zuckerberg 10:47 ... to see what- what... how... what people think of it. Because, you know, one of the issues that we've had in some of the VR and- and mixed reality work is, it tends to feel a lot more profound when you're in it than the 2D videos capturing the experience. So, I think that this one, because it's photorealistic, um, may look kind of as amazing in 2D for people watching it as it- as it feels, I think, to be in it. Um, but we've certainly had this- this, um... this issue where a lot of the other things, just it's like you feel the sense of immersion when you're in it that- that doesn't quite translate to a 2D screen. But I don't know. I'm curi- I'm curious to see- to see what people think.

Lex Fridman 11:21 Yeah. I'm curious to see if people could see that, um, like, my heart is actually beating fast now. This is super interesting. Like, the... that such intimacy of conversation can be achieved remotely. There's been a... you know, I don't do remote podcasts for this reason, and this is like... breaks all of that. This is like just an incredible transition to something else, to- to different kind of communication. Breaks all barriers, like geographic, physical barriers. Uh, what... you mentioned... do you have a sense of timeline in terms of how many difficult things have to be solved?

Mark Zuckerberg 11:58 Um-

Lex Fridman 11:58 To make this more accessible for... like, scanning with a smartphone?

Mark Zuckerberg 12:02 Yeah. I mean, I think we'll probably roll this out progressively over time. So, it's not gonna be like we roll it out, and one day, everyone has a Codec avatar. Uh, we'll... we wanna get more people scanned and into the system.... and then we want to start, uh, integrating it into each one of our apps, right? Making it so that, you know, I think that for a lot of the work style things, productivity, I think that this is going to make a ton of sense. In a lot of game environments, I mean, this could be fine, but games tend to have their own style, right? Where you almost want to fit more with the aesthetic style of the, of the game. Um, but I think if we're doing meetings, and one of the things that we get a lot of feedback on work rooms, where, you know, people are pretty blown away by the experience and this feeling that you can, like, be remote but feel like you're physically there around a table with people. But then, you know, w- we get some feedback that people have a hard time with the fact that the avatars are so expressive and, and, and don't feel, you know, as, as realistic in that environment. So I think something like this, um, could make a very big difference for those remote meetings. And especially with Quest 3 coming out, which is gonna be the first mainstream mixed reality product, right? Where you're really taking digital, um, y- you know, expressions of either a person or, or objects and overlaying them on the physical world. Um, I, I think the ability to do kind of remote meetings and, and things like that where you're, like, just remote hang sessions with friends, I mean, I, I think that that's gonna be very exciting. So yeah, rolling it out over the next, over the next few years. It's not ready to be like a, a, a, a kind of mainstream product yet, but, um, we just wanna... we'll keep tuning in, keep getting more scans in there and keep, you know, and kind of rolling it out into more of the features. But, yeah, I mean, definitely in the next, in the next, um, few years, uh, we'll, you'll be seeing a bunch more experiences like this.

Lex Fridman 13:44 Yeah, I would love to see some celebrities scanned and some non-celebrities. Um, and just, just more people to experience this. I would love to see that. This is something, uh, that, I mean, my mind is blown. I'm literally at a loss for words (laughs) because it's very difficult to just convey how incredible this is, how, how, like, how I feel the emotion, how I feel the presence, how I feel, like, the subtleties of the emotion, uh, in terms of, like, work meetings or any kind of... in terms of podcasts. This is, like, this is awesome. I don't even need to... your arms or legs, is that, is that-

Mark Zuckerberg 14:17 Well, we gotta, we got, we gotta get that. Uh, it...

Lex Fridman 14:19 (laughing)

Mark Zuckerberg 14:19 I mean, that's, that's its own challenge.

Lex Fridman 14:22 Okay.

Mark Zuckerberg 14:22 Um, and, and part of the question is also, so you have the scan, then it takes a certain amount of compute to go drive that, both for the sensors on the headset and, um, and then rendering it. So one of the things that we're working through is, what is the level of fidelity that is optimal, right? You can do the full body in, in kind of a Kodak, and that can be quite intensive. But, um, but one of the things that we're, we're thinking about is like, all right, maybe you can kind of stitch a somewhat lower fidelity version of your body, but still, still have the main, kind of the major movements. Um, but, uh, but, but your face is really the thing that we have the most resolution on, right? In terms of being able to read and, and express emotions. I mean, like you said, if you move your, you know, eyebrows like a millimeter, I mean, that really changes the expression, what you're, you're emoting, whereas, you know, I mean, moving your, your arm like a- an inch probably doesn't matter quite as much. So, so yeah. So I, I think that we'll... we, we do wanna get all of that into here, and, and that'll be some of the work over the next period as well.

Lex Fridman 15:28 So you mentioned Quest 3. That's coming out. I've gotten a chance to try that too. That's awesome. So the... how'd you pull off the mixture? So it's not just virtual reality, it's mixed reality?

Mark Zuckerberg 15:37 Yeah, I mean, I think it's gonna be... it's gonna be the first mainstream, um, mixed reality device. I mean, obviously we shipped Quest Pro, um, last year, but it was $1,500. Um, and, well, part of what I'm super proud of is, you know, we try to innovate not just on pushing the state of the art and delivering new capabilities, but making it so it can be available to everyone. And, you know, we, we have this and it's, it's coming out and it's $500. And, um, in, in some ways, I think the mixed reality is actually better in Quest 3 than it was, um, than, than what we're using right now in Quest Pro. So, and I'm really proud of the team for being able to deliver that kind of an innovation and, and get it out. But, you know, some of this is just, um, software you tune over time and, and get to be better. Part of it is you put together a product and you figure out what are the bottlenecks in terms of making it a good experience. So we got the resolution for the mixed reality cameras and sensors to be multiple times better in Quest 3, and we just figured that that, that made a very big difference when we saw the experience that we were able to put together for Quest Pro. Um, and part of it is also that, you know, Qualcomm just came out with their next generation chipset for, for VR and MR, um, that we worked with them on a, on a kind of custom version of it. Um, but that was available this year for Quest 3, and it wasn't available in Quest Pro. So, you know, in, in a way, um, Quest 3, even though it's not, you know, the, the Pro product, um, actually has a stronger chipset in it than the Pro line at a third of the cost. So, um, so I'm, I'm really excited to get this in people's hands. It, um, it, it does all the VR stuff that, that Quest 2 and the others have done too. It does it better because the display is better, um, and, and the chip is, is better, so you'll get better graphics. Uh, it's 40% thinner, so it's, um, so just more comfortable, uh, as well. But, but the MR is really the big capability shift. And, and part of what's exciting about the whole space right now is, you know, this isn't like smartphones where, you know, companies put out a new smartphone every year and you can almost barely tell the difference between that w- and the, the one the year before it. You know, for this, each time we put out a new headset, it has, like, a major new capability. And, and the big one now, um, is, is mixed reality, the ability to basically take digital representations of people, um, or objects and, and superimpose them on the world. And basically, you know, I mean, there's a, a... One version of this is you're gonna kind of have these augments or, or holograms and, and experiences that you can kind of bring into your living room or meeting space or office. Um, another thing that I just think is gonna be a much kind of simpler innovation is that there are a lot of VR experiences today that don't need to be fully immersive. And, you know, if you're playing a shooter game or, you know, you're doing a fitness experience, sometimes people get worried about swinging their arms around, like, "Am I gonna hit a lamp or, or something?" You know, it's... and, and, "Am I gonna run into something?"So having that in mixed reality actually is just a lot more comfortable for people, right? You, you kind of still get the immersion and the 3D experience, um, and you can, you can have an experience that just wouldn't be possible in the physical world alone, but by being anchored to and being able to see the physical world around you, it's like, it just feels so much safer and more secure. And I think a lot of people are really gonna enjoy that too. So yeah. I'm, I'm really excited to see how people use it. But yeah. Quest 3 coming out, um, later this fall.

Lex Fridman 18:54 Yeah. And I got to experience it with o- other people sitting around and there's a lot of furniture. And so you get to see that furniture, you get to see those people, and you get to see those people, like, enjoy the ridiculousness of you, like swinging your arms. I mean, presumably they're friends of yours, even if they make fun of you, they, uh, there's a lot of love behind that. And that you guy- I- I got to experience that. So that's a really fundamentally different experience than just pure VR with, like, with zombies coming outta walls and you-

Mark Zuckerberg 19:20 Yeah. It's like someone shooting at you and you hide behind your real couch in order to-

Lex Fridman 19:24 Yeah. Real couch.

Mark Zuckerberg 19:24 ... to duck the, the fire. Yeah.

Lex Fridman 19:26 It's incredible how it's all integrated, but also, like subtle stuff like, uh, in a room with no windows, you can add windows to it and you can look outside as the zombies-

Mark Zuckerberg 19:35 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 19:35 ... run towards you. But like, it's still nice view outside, you know?

Mark Zuckerberg 19:38 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 19:38 It's just, it's really, and so that's pulled off by having cameras on the outside of the headset that do the pass through. Uh, and that technology is incredible to do that on a-

Mark Zuckerberg 19:48 Oh, yeah.

Lex Fridman 19:48 ... small headset. And do that-

Mark Zuckerberg 19:50 Yeah. It's not just the cameras. You basically need to, you need multiple cameras to capture the different angles and, and sort of the three-dimensional space. And then it's a pretty complex compute problem, an AI problem to map that to your perspective, right? Because the cameras aren't exactly where your eyes are because no two people's eyes are, are, you're not gonna be in exactly the same place. You kinda need to, to, to get that to, to, to line up. Um, and then do that basically in real time. And then generate something that looks, that kind of feels natural. Um, and then superimpose whatever digital objects you wanna put there. So it's, yeah, it's, it's a, uh, very interesting technical challenge and, um, I think we'll continue tuning this for, for the years to come as well. But, um, but I'm, I'm pretty excited to, to get this out because, you know, I think Quest 3 is gonna be the first device like this with, that millions of people are gonna get that's mixed reality. And it's only when you have millions of people using something that you start getting the whole developer community really starting to experiment and, and build stuff 'cause now there are gonna be people who actually use it. Um, so I think we'll get, you know, we got some of that flywheel going with Quest Pro, but I think it'll really get accelerated once Quest 3 gets out there. And so yeah, I'm, I'm, I'm pretty excited about this one.

Lex Fridman 21:01 Plus there's hand tracking without-

Mark Zuckerberg 21:04 Uh-huh.

Lex Fridman 21:04 So you don't need to have a control. So this cam- the cameras aren't just doing the pass through, uh, of the entire physical reality around you, it's also tracking the details of your hands in order to use that for like gesture recognition, this kind of stuff.

Mark Zuckerberg 21:18 Yeah. We've been able to get way further on hand recognition in a shorter period of time than I expected. So that's been pretty cool. I don't know, did you see the, the demo, um, experience that we built around, um-

Lex Fridman 21:29 Piano?

Mark Zuckerberg 21:29 Like, yeah. The piano, learning to play piano.

Lex Fridman 21:32 Yeah. Yeah. It's incredible. You're basically playing piano on a table and it's, that's without any controller and like how well it matches physical reality with no latency. And it's ma-

Mark Zuckerberg 21:43 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 21:43 It's tracking your hands with no latency and it's tracking all the people around you with no latency. Integrating physical reality and digital reality, obviously that connects exactly to this, uh, Codec avatar, which is in parallel, allows us to have ultra-realistic copies of ourselves in this mixed reality. It's, uh, so like, it is all converging towards like an incredible digital experience in the metaverse. To me, obviously I love the intimacy of conversation, so even this is awesome, but do you have other ideas of what this unlocks of like, something like Codec avatar unlocks in terms of applications, in terms of, uh, things we're able to do?

Mark Zuckerberg 22:28 Well, there's what you can do with avatars overall in terms of superimposing digital objects on the physical world. Um, and then there's kind of psychologically what does having photorealistic do? Um, you know, so I, I think we're moving towards a world where, you know, we're gonna have something that looks like normal glasses where you can just see, you see the physical world, but you also see holograms. And in that world, I think that there are gonna be, you know, not too far off, you know, maybe, you know, by the end of this decade, we'll be living in a world where there are kind of as many holograms when you walk into a room as there are physical objects. And it, it really raises this interesting question about what are, um, about, you know, a lot of people have this phrase where they, they, they call the physical world the real world. And, you know, I, I kind of think increasingly, yeah, the physical world is super important, but I actually think the, the real world is the combination of the physical world and the digital worlds coming together. But until this technology, they were sort of separate, right? It's like you access the digital world through a screen, right? And, you know, maybe it's a small screen that you carry around, or it's a bigger screen when you sit, sit down at your desk and, you know, strap in for a long session. But, um, but they're, they're kind of fundamentally divorced and disconnected. And I think part of what this technology is gonna do is bring those together into a single coherent experience of what the modern real world is, which is, you know, it's gotta be physical because that, we're physical beings. So the physical world is, is always gonna be super important, but, but increasingly I think a lot of the things that we kind of think of, um, can be digital holograms. I mean, any screen that you have can be a hologram, um, you know, any media, um, you know, any book, art, um, you know, can basically be just as effective as a hologram, as a physical object. Any game, um, that you're playing, a board game or, um, or any kind of physical game cards, um, you know, ping pong, things like that. They're, they're often a lot better as holograms 'cause you could just kinda snap your fingers and instantiate them and have them, um-... show up. You know, it's like you have a ping-pong table show up in your living room, but then you can snap your fingers and have it be gone. Um, so th- that's super powerful. Um, so I think that it's, it's actually an amazing thought experiment of, like, how many physical things we have today that could actually be better as interactive holograms. But then beyond that, I think the, the, the most important thing, obviously, is people, so the ability to, you know, have these mixed hangouts, whether they're social or meetings where, you know, you show up to a conference room, you're wearing glasses, um, or a headset in the very near term, but, you know, hopefully by, you know, over the next five years, glasses or so. And, um, and you know, you're there physically, some people are there physically, um, but other people are just there as holograms and it feels like it's them, um, who are right there. And, and also, by the way, another thing that I think is gonna be fascinating about being able to blend together the digital and physical worlds in this way is, we're also going to be able to embody, um, AIs as well. So I think you'll also have meetings in the future where you're basically, you know, maybe you're sitting there physically, and then you have, you know, a couple of other people who are there as holograms, and then you have, like, Bob the AI who's an engineer on your team who's helping with things, and he can now be embodied as a, um, you know, as, as, uh, a realistic avatar as well and just join the meeting, um, in, in that way. So I think that that, that's gonna be pretty compelling, um, as well. So then, okay, so what can you do with photorealistic avatars compared to, um, kind of the more expressive ones that we have today? Well, I think a lot of this actually comes down to acceptance of the technology. Um, and because all of the stuff that we're doing, I mean, the, the motion of your eyebrows, the motion of your eyes, the cheeks, and, and all of that, there's actually no reason why you couldn't do that on an expressive avatar too. I mean, it wouldn't look exactly like you, but you could make a cartoon version of yourself and still have it be, um, almost as expressive. But I, I do think that there's this bridge between the current state of, of most of our interactions in the physical world and where we're getting in the future with this kind of hybrid, um, physical and digital world, where I think it's gonna be a lot easier for people to e- e- kind of take some of these experiences seriously with the photorealistic avatars to start. And then I'm actually really curious to see where it goes longer term. I could see a world where people stick to the photorealistic and maybe they modify them to make them a little bit more interesting, but maybe fundamentally, we like photorealistic things. Um, but I could also see a world that once people get used to the photo- the photorealistic avatars, and they get used to these experiences, that I, I actually think that there could be a world where people actually prefer, um, being able to express themselves in kind of non, uh, you know, ways that aren't so tied to their physical reality. And so I'm, I'm, that's one of the things that I'm really curious about. And I don't know, in, in a bunch of our internal experiments on this, one of the things that has, I thought was psychologically pretty interesting is, people have no issues blending photorealistic stuff and not. So, you know, we could have a, you know, w- w- for this specific scene that we're in now-

Lex Fridman 27:54 Mm-hmm.

Mark Zuckerberg 27:54 ... we, we happen to sort of be in a dark room, um, I, I think m- part of that aesthetic decision I think was based on the way you like to do your podcast. But we've-

Lex Fridman 28:03 Yes.

Mark Zuckerberg 28:03 ... we've done experiences like this, um, where you have, like, a cartoony background, but photorealistic people who you're talking to, and we seem to, like, people just seem to just think that that is completely normal, right? It doesn't bother you or it doesn't feel like it's weird. Um, another thing that, that we've g- experienced with is, um, is basically you have a photorealistic avatar that you're talking to, and then right next to them, you have an expressive kind of cartoon avatar. And that actually is pretty normal too, right? It's, it's like, it's not that weird, right? To, to basically being, in- interacting with, with different people in different modes like that. So I'm, I'm not sure. I think it'll be an interesting question to what extent these photorealistic avatars are like a, a key part of just transitioning from being comfortable in the physical world to this kind of new modern real world that, that kind of includes both the digital and physical, or if this is, like, the long-term way that it stays. Um, that's, that's a, I mean, I think that there are gonna be uses for both the expressive and the photorealistic over time. I just don't know what the balance is gonna be.

Lex Fridman 29:08 Yeah, it's a really good, interesting philosophical question, but to me, in the short term, the photorealistic is amazing-

Mark Zuckerberg 29:14 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 29:14 ... to where I would prefer, like, you said the work one, but, like, on a beach with a beer to s- to see a buddy of mine remotely on a chair next to me drinking a beer, I mean, that, as realistic as possible, is an incredible experience. So I don't want any fake hats on him. I don't want any, just chilling with a, with a friend, drinking beer, looking at the ocean, while not being in the same place together. I mean, that, um-

Mark Zuckerberg 29:40 Yeah. Yeah.

Lex Fridman 29:41 That experience is just, it's, it's, it's a f- it's a fundamentally, uh, it's just a high quality experience, a friendship. Whatever we seek in friendship, it seems to be present there in the same kind of realism I'm seeing right now. This is, this is totally a game changer. So to me, this is, I could see myself sticking with this for a long time.

Mark Zuckerberg 30:01 Yeah. And, and-

Lex Fridman 30:01 For the long term.

Mark Zuckerberg 30:02 ... I mean, it's also, it's novel, and it's also a technological feat, right? It's like b- being able to pull this off-

Lex Fridman 30:07 Yeah.

Mark Zuckerberg 30:07 ... is like, it's a, it's like a pretty impressive, and I, uh, I think to some degree, it's just this kind of, like, awesome experience.

Lex Fridman 30:13 Yeah.

Mark Zuckerberg 30:14 Um ...

Lex Fridman 30:15 But I'm already, sorry to interrupt,

Lex Fridman 30:16 but I'm already f- forgetting that you're not real.

Mark Zuckerberg 30:20 (laughs)

Lex Fridman 30:21 Like, this really, so-

Mark Zuckerberg 30:22 Well, I am real.

Lex Fridman 30:23 It's novel.

Mark Zuckerberg 30:23 It's a, this is just a, an avatar version of me.

Lex Fridman 30:26 That's, that's a deep philosophical question, yes. (laughs)

Mark Zuckerberg 30:29 But I mean, but here's some of the... Uh, so I put this on this morning and I was like, all right, like-It's like, okay, so this is, my hair is a little shorter in this than my physical hair is right now.

Lex Fridman 30:39 Mm-hmm.

Mark Zuckerberg 30:39 I probably need to go get a haircut.

Lex Fridman 30:40 Sure.

Mark Zuckerberg 30:40 Um, and like, and I actually, I did happen to shave this morning. But, but if I hadn't, you know, I could still have this photorealistic avatar that is, that is more cleanly shaven, right? Even if I'm, you know, a few days in, um, physically. So, I do think that there are gonna start to be these subtle questions that seep in where the, the avatar is realistic, um, in, in the sense of this is kind of what you looked like at the time of capture, but it's not necessarily temporally accurate to exactly what you look like in this moment. And I think that there are gonna end up being, um, a bunch of questions that come from that over time that I think are gonna be fascinating, too.

Lex Fridman 31:22 You mean just like the nature of identity of who we are? Are we the-

Mark Zuckerberg 31:25 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 31:26 ... people... You know how people do, like, like, summer beach body? Where the people will be, for the scan, they'll try to lose some weight and look their best and sexiest with the nice hair and everything like that? I mean, it does, um, it does raise the question of, you know, if a lot of people are interacting with the digital version of ourselves, who are we really? Are we the, the entity driving the avatar or are we the avatar?

Mark Zuckerberg 31:52 Well, I mean, I think our physical bodies also fluctuate and change over time too. So I think there's a similar question of, like, which version of that are we, right? There's, there's, like, the-

Lex Fridman 32:01 Yeah. Yeah.

Mark Zuckerberg 32:02 I mean, it's... And, and it's interesting identity question because, all right, it's like, I don't know, it's like weight fluctuates or, or things like that. It's like, I, I think most people don't tend to think of themselves as the, uh, well, I don't know. It's, it's an interesting psychological question. Some, maybe some people, maybe a lot of people do think about themselves as the kind of worst version. Um, but, you know, but I think a lot of people-

Lex Fridman 32:24 Yeah.

Mark Zuckerberg 32:24 ... probably think about themselves as the best version. And-

Lex Fridman 32:26 Yeah.

Mark Zuckerberg 32:26 ... and I, I, and then it's like, what you are on a day-to-day basis doesn't necessarily map to, to, um, to either of those. So I think that that's... Yeah. It, it, there will definitely be a bunch of, a bunch of social scientists and, and folks who will have to, you know, and, and psychologists are, uh, r- really, there's gonna be a lot to understand about how our perception of ourselves and others, um, has shifted from this.

Lex Fridman 32:51 Well, this might be a, a bit of a complicated and dark question, but one of the first feelings I had experiencing this is I would love to talk to loved ones. And the next question I have is, I would love to talk to people who are no longer here that are loved ones. So like, if you look into the future, is that something you think about when people pass away, but they can still exist in the metaverse? You could still have, you know, talk to your father, talk to your grandfather and grandmother and, and mother once they pass away. The power of that experience, uh, is one of the first things my mind jumped to, 'cause it's like, this is so real.

Mark Zuckerberg 33:31 Yeah, I think that there are a lot of norms and things that people have to figure out around that. There's probably some balance where, you know, if someone is, has lost a loved one and is grieving, there, there may be ways in which, you know, being able to interact or relive certain memories could be helpful. But then there's also probably an extent to which it, it could become unhealthy. And, I mean, I, I'm not an expert in that, so I think we'd have to study that and, and understand it in more detail. We have, you know, a fair amount of experience with how to handle death and identity and people's digital content through social media already, unfortunately, right? where there are, you know, there's, um, you know, unfortunately, you know, people who use our services die every day and their families, you know, often wanna have access to their profiles. And we have whole protocols that we go through where, you know, there are certain parts of it that, um, that we try to memorialize, so that way the, the family can, can get access to it, so that way the account doesn't just go away immediately. But then there are other things that are, you know, important kind of private things that that person has. Like, we're not gonna give the family access to someone's messages, you know, for example. So, um, so yeah, I, I think that there's, there's some best practices, I think, from the current digital world that will carry over. But, um, but yeah, I think that this will enable some different

Mark Zuckerberg 34:54 things. Another version of this is, is how, is how this intersects with AIs, right? Because, you know, one of the, the things that, that we're really focused on is, you know, we, we want there to, we want the world to evolve in a way where there isn't, like, a single AI superintelligence, but where, you know, a lot of people are empowered by having AI tools to, to do their jobs and, you know, make their lives better. And if you're a creator, right? And if you run a, you know, podcast like you do, then, you know, you have a big community of people who are super interested to talk to you. I know you'd love to, you know, cultivate that community and you interact with them online outside of the, the podcast as well. But, I mean, there's way more demand both to interact with you and I'm sure you'd love to interact with the community more, but you just are limited by the number of hours in the day. So, you know, at some point, I think making it so that you could build, um, an AI version of yourself that could interact with people, you know, not after you die, but, but while you're here to help, um, you know, help, help people kind of fulfill this desire to, to interact with you and your desire to build a community. And there's a, a lot of interesting questions around that. Um, and, you know, that's obviously, it's not just in, in the metaverse. I think, you know, we'd, we'd wanna make that work, you know, across all the messaging platforms, you know, WhatsApp and Messenger and Instagram Direct. But, you know, there's certainly, you know, a version of that where if you could have an avatar version of yourself in the metaverse that people can interact with and you could define that sort of an AI, um, version where, you know, people know that they're interacting with an AI, that it's not, you know, the, the kind of physical version of you, but, uh, maybe that AI, even if they know it's an AI, is the next best thing, because they, they're probably not gonna, you know, necessarily all get to interact with you, um, directly. I, I, I think that that could be a really compelling experience. There, there's a lot of things that we need to get right about it. Um-... that, you know, it's, we're not ready to release the, the version that a creator can, can kind of build a version of themselves yet. But we're starting to experiment with it, in terms of releasing a number of AIs that people can interact with in different ways. Um, and I, I think that that is, is also just gonna be a very powerful, um, you know, set of capabilities that people have over time.

Lex Fridman 37:14 So, you've made major strides in developing these early AI personalities, um, with the idea where you can talk to them across the Meta apps and have, like, interesting, unique kind of conversations. What... Can you describe your vision there in these early strides and what are some technical challenges there?

Mark Zuckerberg 37:34 Yeah. So, I mean, a lot of the vision comes from this idea that, you know, I, I, I don't, I don't think we necessarily want there to be, like, one big superintelligence. We want to empower everyone to both, you know, have more fun, accomplish their business goals. You know, it, it just... Everything that, that, that they're trying to do. And, you know, we don't tend to have, you know, one person that we work with on everything. And I don't think in the future we're gonna have, you know, one AI that we work with. I think you're gonna want a, um, a variety of these. Um, so there are a bunch of different uses. Um, you know, some will be kind of more assistant-oriented. There's a, sort of the kind of plain and simple one that we, that we're building. It's called just Meta AI. It's simple. It, you know, you can chat with it in any of your threads. Um, it doesn't have a face, right? It's a, it's just, it's, um, it's just kind of more vanilla and, and neutral and, and kind of factual. Um, but it can help you with a bunch of stuff. Then there are a bunch of cases that are more kind of business-oriented. So let's say you wanna contact a, a small business. Um, you know, similarly, you know, that business probably doesn't wanna have to staff someone to man the phones, and you probably don't wanna wait on the phone to talk to someone. But, you know, having someone who you can just, like, talk to in a natural way, who can, you know, help you if you're having an issue with a product or, you know, if you wanna make a reservation or if you wanna, you know, buy something online. Um, having the ability to, to do that and have a natural conversation rather than navigate some website or have to call someone and wait on hold, um, I think is gonna be really good, both for the businesses and for, for normal people who wanna interact with businesses. So I think stuff like that makes sense. Um, then there are gonna be a bunch of use cases that I think are just fun, right? So I think people are gonna ... I think that there will be AIs that, like, can tell jokes, so you can put them into chat thread with friends. I mean, I think a lot of this... Because we're, we're like a social company, right? I mean, uh, we're, we're, you know, fundamentally around helping people connect in different ways. And part of what I'm, what I'm excited about is, you know, how do you enable these kind of AIs to facilitate connection between two people or more, you know, put them in a group chat, you know, make the group chat more interesting, um, around whatever your interests are? Sports, fashion, um, trivia.

Lex Fridman 39:51 Video games. I love the idea of, of playing, I think you mentioned Baldur's Gate, an incredible game. Just having an AI that you play together with and you... I mean, that could, that seems like a small thing, but it could deeply enrich the, like, gaming experience.

Mark Zuckerberg 40:08 Well, I do think that AIs will be, will make the NPCs a lot better in games too. So that's a, a separate thing that I'm pretty excited about.

Lex Fridman 40:15 Yeah.

Mark Zuckerberg 40:15 But, um, but yeah. I mean, one of the, one of the AIs that we've built that just in our internal testing people have loved the most is like a, like an adventure, text-based, um, g- like a dungeon master.

Lex Fridman 40:29 Yeah.

Mark Zuckerberg 40:29 Um-

Lex Fridman 40:30 Nice.

Mark Zuckerberg 40:30 And, and I, I think, um, you know, p- part of what, what has been fun, and we, we talked about this a bit, but we- we've gotten some, like, real kind of cultural figures to play a bunch of these folks and be the embodiment and the avatar of them. So, um, so Snoop Dogg is the dungeon master, which I think is just hilarious.

Lex Fridman 40:47 Yes. In terms of the next steps of, you know, if you mention, you mentioned Snoop, to create a Snoop AI. So basically, AI personality replica. A copy... Or not a copy. Maybe, um, inspired by Snoop. What, what are the, some of the technical challenges of that? What does that experience look like for Snoop to be able to create-

Mark Zuckerberg 41:09 Yeah, so-

Lex Fridman 41:10 ... that AI persona?

Mark Zuckerberg 41:11 So starting off, creating new personas is easier because it doesn't need to stick exactly-

Lex Fridman 41:20 Okay.

Mark Zuckerberg 41:20 ... to what, you know, that physical person would want, how they'd wanna be represented, right? It's like it's just a new character that we created. So even though, yeah, so Snoop in that case is, you know, he's, um, you know, he's basically an actor, right? He's playing the, the dungeon master, but it's not Snoop Dogg, right? It's, it's, um, you know, whoever the, the dungeon master is. Um, if you wanna actually make it so that you have an AI embodying a real creator, there's a whole set of things that you need to do to make sure that that AI is not gonna say things that the creator doesn't want, right? And, um, and that the AI is gonna, you know, know things and be able to represent things in the way that the creator would want, um, in the way that the creator would know. Um, so I think that it's less of a, it's less of a question around, like, having the avatar express them. I mean, that, that I think we're... You know, it's like, "Well, we have our kind of V1 of that that we'll release soon, um, as, after Connect." But, you know, that'll get better over time. But a lot of this is really just about continuing to make the, the models for these AIs so that they are just more and more... I don't know. You could say, like, reliable or predictable in terms of what they'll communicate. So that way, you know, when you wanna create the Lex, um, assistant AI that, that your community can talk to, um, you can... You know, it's, you don't program them like normal computers. You're training them. They're AI models, not, not, not, um, kind of normal computer programs. But, um, but you wanna get it to be predictable enough so that way you can set some parameters for it.And even if it isn't perfect all the time, um, you want it to generally be able to stay within those bounds. So that's a lot of, um, what, what I think we need to nail for, for the creators. And that's why that one's actually a much harder problem, I think, than starting with, with, uh, with new characters that you're creating from scratch. So that one I think will probably, um, start releasing sometime next year. Um, not this year, but experimenting with existing characters and the assistant and games and a bunch of different personalities and experimenting with some small businesses. Um, I, I think that that stuff we'll be ready to do this year and we're rolling it out, you know, basically right after Connect.

Lex Fridman 43:42 Yeah. I'm deeply entertained by the possibility of me sitting down with myself and saying, "Hey man, like, uh, you need to stop the dad jokes," or, or whatever, but-

Mark Zuckerberg 43:51 I think the idea of a podcast between you and AI assistant Lex podcast... (laughs)

Lex Fridman 43:58 (laughs) I mean, there's, uh, just even the experience of a Codec avatar, being able to freeze yourself, like, uh, to basically first mimic yourself, so everything you do, you get to see yourself do it. That's a surreal experience. It feels like, uh, if I was like an ape looking in a mirror for the first time realizing like, "Oh, that's you." But then freezing that and being able to look around like I'm looking at you, it's, it's a... I don't know how to put it into words, but it just feels like a fundamentally new experience, like I'm in- seeing maybe color for the first time. I'm seeing, I'm experiencing a new way of seeing the world for the first time, because it's physical reality, but it's digital, like... And realizing that that's possible is just... it's, it's, it's blowing my mind. It's just really exciting, 'cause I, I lived most of my life, you know, before the internet and, and, and the experience of the internet and experiencing voice communication and video communication, you think like, "Well, there's a ceiling to this." But this is making me feel like, uh, there might not be, there might be that blend of physical reality and digital reality that's actually what the future is.

Mark Zuckerberg 45:12 Yeah, I think so.

Lex Fridman 45:12 So it's, it's a weird experience. It's, uh, sh- it feels like the early days of s- of like a totally new way of living. And, like, there's a lotta people that kinda complain, "Well, you know, the internet is not... That's not reality. You need to turn all that off and go, you know, in nature." But this feels, like this will make those people happy, I feel like (laughs) , 'cause it feels real, the flaws and everything.

Mark Zuckerberg 45:37 Yeah. Well, I mean, a big part of how we're trying to design this, these new computing products is that they should be physical, right? I think part, that's a big part of the issue with computers and TVs and even phones is like, yeah, I mean, maybe you can interact with them in different places, but they're, they're fundamentally, like you're sitting, you're, you're still. And, I mean, people are just not meant to be that way. I mean, I think you, you and I have this shared passion for, for sports and martial arts and doing stuff like that. We're just moving around. It's like so much of what makes us people is like you're, you, you move around. You're not, we're not just like a brain in a tank, right? It's the, we're... You know, the human experience is a physical one. And, um, so it's, it's not just about having the immersive expression of the digital world. It's about being able to really natively bring that together. And, and it, it... I do really think that the, the real world is this mix of the physical and the digital, where the digital is... there's too much digital at this point for it to just be siloed to a small screen. But the physical is too important, so you, you don't wanna just sit down all day long, um, at a desk. So I, I think that this is, uh, uh, yeah, I, I do think that this is the future. This is, I, I think the kind of philosophical way that I would want the world to work in the future, is a much more coherently blended physical and digital world.

Lex Fridman 46:56 There might be some difficult philosophical and even ethical questions we have to figure out as a society. Uh, maybe you can comment on this. So the, the metaverse seems to enable, sort of unlock a lot of experiences that we don't have in the physical world. And the question is like what is and isn't allowed in the metaverse? You know, in video games, we allow, uh, all kinds of crazy stuff. And in physical reality, you know, a lot of that is illegal. So where's that line, where's that gray area between video game and physical reality? Do you have a sense of that?

Mark Zuckerberg 47:36 Well, I think... I mean, there, there are content policies and things like that, right, in, in terms of what, what people are allowed to create, but, I mean, a lot of the rules around physical... I think we try to have a society that is as free as possible, meaning that people can do as much of what they want unless you're gonna do damage to other people and, and infringe on, on their rights. And the idea of damage is somewhat different in a, in a digital environment. And when I get into, you know, uh, some world with my friends, the, the first thing we start doing is shooting each other, which obviously we would not do in the physical world 'cause you'd, you'd hurt each other. Um, but in, in a game, that's like just a... it's almost, you know, it's like just fun and... Um, and even in like the lobby of a game, right? It's like it just yo- y- it's not even bearing on the game. It's just kind of like a funny, um, d- sort of humorous thing to do. So it's like is that, is that problematic? I don't think so because it's, it's... fundamentally it's not. You're not causing harm in that world. So I think that the, um... Part of the question that I think we need to figure out is what are the ways where things could've been harmful in the physical world that will now be freed from that, and therefore there should be fewer restrictions in the digital world? Um, and then there might be new ways in which there could be harm in the digital world that there weren't the case before, so there's more anonymity, right? It's, um, you know, when you, when you show up to a, you know, restaurant or something, it's like all the norms where you, you pay the bill at the end. It's because, you know, you...... you have, you have one identity and, you know, the i- you know, if you, if you stiff them, then like, you know, life is a repeat game and that's not gonna work out well for you. But, you know, in a digital world where you can be anonymous and show up in, in different ways, um, I think the incentive to act like a good citizen can be a lot less and that causes a lot of issues and toxic behavior. So, you know, that needs to get sorted out. Um, so I think in terms of what is allowed, I think you wanna just look at what, what, what are the, the damages. But then there's also other things that are not related to kind of harm, you know, less about what should be allowed and more about what will be possible that are more about the laws of physics, right? It's like if you wanted to travel, um, to see me in person, you'd have to get on a plane and, and that would like, you know, take a few hours to get here. Whereas, you know, we could just jump in a conference room and, you know, put on these headsets and we're basically teleported into a space where we're, you know, it feels like we're together. So that's a very novel experience that, um, that it, it breaks down some things that previously would've defied the laws of physics for what it would take to get together. And I think that that will create a lot of new opportunities, right? So, um, and one of the things that I'm curious about is, you know, there are all these debates right now about, you know, remote work or people being together and, you know, I think this gets us a lot closer to being able to work physically in different places, but actually have it feel like we're together. Um, so, you know, I think that the, the dream is that, is that people will one day be able to just work wherever they want, uh, but we'll have all the same opportunities because you'll be able to feel like you're physically together. I think we're not there today with, with, um, with just video conferencing and the basic technologies that we have. But I think part of the idea is that with something like this, over time you could get closer to that and that would open up a lot of opportunities, right? Because then people could live physically where they want while still being able to get the benefits of being physically or, or kind of feeling like you're together, um, with people at work, all the ways that that helps to build more culture and build better relationships and build trust, um, which I think are real issues that if you, if you're not seeing people, you know, in, in, in person ever. So yeah, I, I don't know. I think it's gonna be... It's very hard from first principles to think about all the implications of, um, of, of a technology like this and, you know, all the good and, and, and the things that you need to mitigate. So, you know, you try to do your best to, to kind of envision what things are gonna be like and accentuate the things that they're gonna be awesome and hopefully mitigate some of the, the, the downside things. But I, you know, it's... The reality is that we're gonna be building this out one year at a time. It's gonna take a while. Um, so we're gonna just get to see how, how, how it evolves and, and what developers and, and different folks do with it.

Lex Fridman 51:52 Uh, if you could comment, this might be a, a bit of a very specific technical question, but Llama 2 is incredible. It's the... You've, you released it recently. Um, there's already been a lot of exciting developments around it. Uh, is there... What, what's your sense about its release and is there a Llama 3, uh, in the future?

Mark Zuckerberg 52:15 Yeah, I mean, I think on, on the last podcast that we did together, we were talking about the debate that we were having around open sourcing Llama 2. And I'm, I'm, I'm glad that we did. Um, you know, I think at this point, there's... The, the value of open sourcing a foundation model like Llama 2 is significantly greater than, um, than the, than the risks in, in, in my view. I mean, we did... We spent a lot of time, took a very rigorous assessment of that in red teaming it. Um, but I'm, I'm, I'm very glad that we released Llama 2. I think the reception has been, um... It's, it's just been really exciting to see how excited people have, have been, uh, about it. And it's gotten way more, you know, downloads and usage than I, than I, I would've even expected. And I was pretty optimistic about it. Um, so that's, that's been great. Um, Llama 3, uh, I mean, there's always another model that we're training. So, I mean, it's... You know, for right now, you know, we built... We, we trained Llama 2 and we released it as an open source model. And right now the priority is building that into a bunch of the consumer products, all the different AIs and, um, and, and a bunch of different, um, products that, that we're basically building as consumer products 'cause Llama 2 by itself, it's not a consumer product, right? It's more of a piece of infrastructure that people could, could build things with. So that's been the big priority, is kind of continuing to fine-tune and, um, and, and kind of just get Llama 2 and, and its, um, and its little... The branches that we've built off of it ready for consumer products that hopefully, you know, hundreds of millions of people will, will, um, enjoy using those, those products and billions one day. But yeah, I mean, we're, we're also working on, on the future foundation models and, um, and I don't have anything new or news, news on that. I don't know, you know, I don't know exactly when it's gonna be ready. Um, I think just like we had a debate around Llama 2 and open sourcing it, um, I think we'll, we'll need to have a similar debate and process to red team this and make sure that this is safe. But... And my hope is that we'll be able to, to open source this next version when it's ready, too. But, um, but that's not... That... We're, we're not, we're not, you know, close to doing that this month. I mean, this is, um, that's just... It's a thing that we're, we're still somewhat early in working on.

Lex Fridman 54:38 Well, in general, thank you so much for open sourcing Llama 2 and for being transparent about all the exciting developments around AI. I feel like that's contributing to a really awesome conversation about where we go with AI. And obviously, it's really interesting to see all the same kind of technology integrated into these personalized AI systems, uh, with the, with the AI personas, which I think will... When you put it in people's hands and they get to have conversations with these AI personas, you'll get to see like-... interesting failure cases, like where things are dumb or they go into weird directions, or, and we get to learn as a society together what's, what's too far, what's interesting, what's fun, how, how much personalization is good, how much generic is good. And we get to learn all of this. And you probably don't know this yourself. Like, we have to all figure it out by using it, right?

Mark Zuckerberg 55:31 Yeah, I mean, part of what we're trying to do with the initial AI's launch is, um, having a diversity of different use cases just so that people can try different things, because I don't know what's gonna work. I mean, are, are people gonna like playing in the text-based adventure games or are they going to, you know, like having a comedian who, who can add jokes, um, to, to Threads or they can want to interact with historical figures? Um, you know, we made, we made one of Jane Austen and, and one of, um, Marcus Aurelius and-

Lex Fridman 56:01 Mm-hmm.

Mark Zuckerberg 56:01 ... I'm, I'm curious to see how that goes. Um ...

Lex Fridman 56:04 I'm excited for both.

Mark Zuckerberg 56:05 Yeah?

Lex Fridman 56:05 Just because I'm a big fan, I'm excited for both to have conversations with them. Uh, I mean, yeah, that's ...

Mark Zuckerberg 56:10 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 56:10 You know, and, and I am also excited to see, you know, the internet, I don't know if you heard, can get kind of weird. Um, and I applaud them for it. So I get to see it.

Mark Zuckerberg 56:18 I've heard that, yeah.

Lex Fridman 56:19 Yeah. (laughs) So, so it'd be, it'd be nice to see how weird they take it, what kind of memes are generated from this. And I think all of it is, uh, especially in these early stages of development as we progress towards AGI, it, it's good to learn by, by playing with those systems and interacting with them at like a large scale, like you said.

Mark Zuckerberg 56:38 Yeah, totally. I mean, that's why ... Well, so we're starting out with a set, and then, um, we're also working on this platform that we call AI Studio that's gonna make it so that, you know, over time anyone will be able to create, uh, one of these AIs almost like they create any other UGC content across the platform. So I'm, I'm excited about that. I think that to some degree we're not gonna see the full potential of this until, you know, you just have the full creativity of the whole community being able to build stuff. But there's a lot of, a lot of stuff that we need to get right. So, um, so I'm, I'm excited to take this in stages. I don't, I don't think anyone out there is really doing what we're doing here. I think that there are ...

Lex Fridman 57:21 Mm-hmm.

Mark Zuckerberg 57:22 There are people who are, who are doing kind of like fictional or consumer-oriented character type stuff. But the extent to which we're building it out with the, um, you know, avatars and expressiveness and, and making it so that they can interact across, um, you know, all of the different apps and, um, they'll, they'll have profiles and, you know, we'll be able to engage people on Instagram and Facebook. I, I, I think it's, it's just, it's, um, it's gonna be really fun.

Lex Fridman 57:49 Well, I'm still ... So we're talking about AI, but I'm still blown away this entire time that I'm talking to Mark Zuckerberg and you're not here, but you feel like you're here. I've done quite a few intimate conversations with people alone in a room, and this feels like that. So I keep forgetting for long stretches of time that like we're not in the same room. And f- for me to imagine a future where I can, with a snap of a finger, do that with anyone in my life, the way we can just call right now and have this kind of shallow 2D experience, uh, to have this experience like we're sitting next to each other is like ... I, I don't, I don't think I can, I don't think we can even imagine what, how that changes things, where you can immediately have intimate one-on-one conversations with anyone. That's, that might like ... In a way, we might not even predict changed civilization.

Mark Zuckerberg 58:44 Well, I mean, this is a lot of the thesis behind the whole metaverse, is giving people the ability to feel like you're present with someone. I mean, this is like the main thing I talk about all the time. But I, I do think that there's a lot to, to process about it. I mean, from my perspective, I mean, I, I'm definitely here. We're just not, we're, we're not physically in the same place. It's not like you're-

Lex Fridman 59:03 Yeah.

Mark Zuckerberg 59:03 ... you know, you're not talking to an AI, right? You're, you know, this is ... Um, so I, I think the, the thing that's novel is the ability to convey through technology a sense of almost physical presence.

Lex Fridman 59:16 Mm-hmm.

Mark Zuckerberg 59:16 Um, so the, the thing that is not physically real is, um, is us being in the same physical place. But, uh, but, but kind of everything else is. And I think that that gets to this somewhat philosophical question about what is the nature of kind of the modern real world? And I, I just think that that's ... It, it really is this combination of a physical world and the presence that we feel, but also being able to combine that with this increasingly rich and powerful and capable digital world that we have and, and, and all of the, the innovation that's getting created there. So, um, I, I think it's super exciting because I mean, the, the digital world is just, is just increasing, um, in, in its capability and our ability to do awesome things. But the physical world is so profound and that's a lot of what makes us human is, is that we're, we're, we're physical beings, so I don't think we want to run away from that and just spend all day on a screen. And that's like ... You know, it's one of the reasons why I care so much about, about helping to shape and accelerate the, these future computing platforms. I just think this is so powerful and it's, it's ... You know, even though the current version of this is like you're wearing a headset, um, I, I just think this is gonna be by far the most human and social computing platform that has ever existed. And, uh, that- that's what, what makes me excited.

Lex Fridman 1:00:36 Yeah. I, I, I think just to linger on this kind of changing nature of reality, like of what is real, maybe shifting it towards the sort of consciousness. So what is real is the subjective experience of a thing that makes it feel real versus necessarily being in the same physical space, because it feels like we're in the same physical space.

Mark Zuckerberg 1:01:00 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 1:01:01 And that the conscious experience of it, that's probably what is real. Not like that the spacetime, like the physics of it, like you're basically breaking physics and, and-

Mark Zuckerberg 1:01:12 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 1:01:12 ... focusing on the consciousness. That's what's real.... just whatever's going on inside my head.

Mark Zuckerberg 1:01:17 But there are a lot of social and psychological things that go along with that, uh, experience that w- was previously only physical presence, right? I think that there's, like, an intimacy, a trust. Um, you know, there's a, a level of communication, because so much of communication is non-verbal and it's based on expressions that-

Lex Fridman 1:01:36 Mm-hmm.

Mark Zuckerberg 1:01:36 ... you're kind of, you know, you're, you're sharing with, with someone when you're in this kind of environment. And before those things would have only been possible, you know, had, you know, I gotten on a plane and, and flown to Austin, and, and sat, you know, physically with you in the same place. So I-

Lex Fridman 1:01:53 Mm-hmm.

Mark Zuckerberg 1:01:53 ... I think we're, we're basically shortcutting those laws of physics and delivering the social and psychological benefits of being able to be present and, and feel like you're there with another person, which I think are real benefits, um, to anyone in the world. And I- I think that that, like you said, I mean, I think that is gonna be a very profound thing. Um, and that, a lot of that is, you know, that's the promise of, of the metaverse and what, you know, why, you know, I- I just, well, I think that that's the next frontier for, for what we're working on. You know, I started working on social networks when they were primarily text, where the first version of Facebook, your profile, you know, you had one photo and the rest of it was, like, lists of things that you were interested in. And-

Lex Fridman 1:02:36 Mm-hmm.

Mark Zuckerberg 1:02:36 ... and then we kind of went through the period where we're doing photos and, you know, now we're kind of in the period where most of the content is video. But there's a clear trend where, you know, over time, the way that we want to express ourselves and, and kind of get insight and content about the world around us gets increasingly just richer and more vivid. And I- I think the ability to be immersed and feel present with the people around you, or the people who you care about, is, from my perspective, clearly the next frontier. It just so happens that it's incredibly technologically difficult, right? It requires building up these new computing platforms and completely new software stacks to deliver that. But, I mean, I kind of feel like that's what we're here to do as a company.

Lex Fridman 1:03:21 Well, I really love the connection you have through k- through conversation. And so for me, this photorealism is really, really exciting. I'm- I'm, uh, really excited for this future and, um, thank you for building it. Thanks to you and thanks to the amazing, uh, Meta teams that I've met, uh, the- the engineers and just everybody I've met here. Thank you for helping to build this future, and, uh, (laughs) thank you, Mark, for talking to me inside the metaverse. This is blowing my mind, I can't quite express. I would love to measure my heart rate this whole time.

Mark Zuckerberg 1:03:56 (laughs)

Lex Fridman 1:03:56 It would be hilarious if you're actually, like, sitting on a beach right now. Uh-

Mark Zuckerberg 1:04:00 I'm not. I'm in a conference room.

Lex Fridman 1:04:02 Okay. Well, I'm on a beach, and if- if ... and not wearing any pants.

Mark Zuckerberg 1:04:05 (laughs)

Lex Fridman 1:04:05 So I'm really sorry about that, and for anyone else who's watching me in physical space. Anyway, thank you so much for talking today. This is, this- this really blew my mind. It's one of the most incredible experiences of my life, so thank you for giving that to me.

Mark Zuckerberg 1:04:17 Awesome, awesome. Glad you got to check it out and, um, it's always fun to talk. All right. I'll catch you soon. See ya.

Lex Fridman 1:04:23 Okay. See you later. This is so, so amazing, man. This is so amazing.