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Lex Fridman PodcastLex Fridman Podcast

Matthew McConaughey: Freedom, Truth, Family, Hardship, and Love | Lex Fridman Podcast #384

Matthew McConaughey is an Oscar-winning actor and author of Greenlights. Please support this podcast by checking out our sponsors: - Riverside: http://creators.riverside.fm/LEX and use code LEX to get 30% off - MasterClass: https://masterclass.com/lex to get 15% off - AG1: https://drinkag1.com/lex to get 1 year of Vitamin D and 5 free travel packs EPISODE LINKS: Matthew's Twitter: https://twitter.com/McConaughey Matthew's Instagram: https://instagram.com/officiallymcconaughey/ Matthew's YouTube: https://youtube.com/@MatthewMcConaughey Greenlights (book): https://greenlights.com/ Roadtrip (course): https://artoflivinevent.com/roadtrip PODCAST INFO: Podcast website: https://lexfridman.com/podcast Apple Podcasts: https://apple.co/2lwqZIr Spotify: https://spoti.fi/2nEwCF8 RSS: https://lexfridman.com/feed/podcast/ Full episodes playlist: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLrAXtmErZgOdP_8GztsuKi9nrraNbKKp4 Clips playlist: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLrAXtmErZgOeciFP3CBCIEElOJeitOr41 OUTLINE: 0:00 - Introduction 1:05 - Relationships 5:52 - Dreams 18:04 - Fear of death 29:48 - Overcoming pain 52:53 - Amazon rainforest 59:37 - AI 1:12:53 - Truth 1:20:58 - Ego 1:28:42 - Dallas Buyers Club 1:35:11 - True Detective 1:43:57 - Yellowstone 1:48:59 - Texas 1:50:51 - Politics 1:55:37 - Interstellar 1:58:34 - Aliens 2:05:31 - Advice for young people 2:13:50 - Meaning of life SOCIAL: - Twitter: https://twitter.com/lexfridman - LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lexfridman - Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/lexfridman - Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/lexfridman - Medium: https://medium.com/@lexfridman - Reddit: https://reddit.com/r/lexfridman - Support on Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/lexfridman

Matthew McConaugheyguestLex Fridmanhost
Jun 13, 20232h 19mWatch on YouTube ↗

EVERY SPOKEN WORD

  1. 0:00 – 1:05

    Introduction

    1. MM

      If you really wanna give a character an obstacle to overcome, a need, I mean, the base one is life and death.

    2. LF

      The following is a conversation with Matthew McConaughey, a legendary Oscar-winning actor, and one of the most unique, charismatic, and inspiring humans and Texans who walked this Earth. He starred in films and shows loved by me and millions of others, including Interstellar, Dazed and Confused, Dallas Buyers Club, Killer Joe, Mud, True Detective, and soon, a spin-off of Yellowstone. Off-screen, his words carry wisdom and power in his book called Greenlights, and his new video course called Roadtrip, where Matthew expands on the philosophy in his book and shows how to apply it to your life in order to find more happiness, success, and love. This is the Lex Fridman Podcast. To support it, please check out our sponsors in the description. And now, dear friends, here's Matthew McConaughey.

  2. 1:05 – 5:52

    Relationships

    1. LF

      Let's start with love. Your parents had a complicated love story. Divorced twice, married three times. What have you learned about love from your mom and dad and their love story?

    2. MM

      That it's messy, that it takes work, that it's ugly, that no matter how ugly or messy it is, don't go to bed until you've come back together to either embrace or admit that you truly love each other, even if you hadn't solved what the hell you're bitching about. That... love will win in the end, literally three to two, with my mom and dad. (laughs)

    3. LF

      (laughs) Yeah.

    4. MM

      Um, and that even in the two divorces and in the two times where they couldn't live with each other, they still loved each other. They just couldn't live with each other at that time for whatever reason they needed. And I don't know the details, but they needed their space, freedom, or what, but they were never out of love with each other. Um, and that as a parent, if you just, when, when we're not sure what to do, and you, people give you a thousand books and advice, as a parent, if your kid knows you love 'em, you're in the black. That's the main thing. It won't work without that. Um, and it can work, and will usually can work with that. They just know that fact.

    5. LF

      So it's not just love for each other, it's the love for the bigger family that ultimately helps you persist through the ups and downs.

    6. MM

      Well, (sighs) I mean, I don't know how much, and particularly my mom and dad were staying together at times maybe when they didn't want to because they had children. I don't actually think they considered that. I, I, I, I think they were much less conscientious than say I am today. I think my mom and dad were more like, "They'll be fine."

    7. LF

      (laughs)

    8. MM

      "We love 'em. They'll be fine, but we, we, we'll cross that bridge when we get there." Right now, they would, "Let's work it out between you and I," is what I think my mom and dad were saying to each other, or, or not. They, uh, um, they, they wanted and needed a relationship that was a tidal wave, rocky, right angles, tsunamis. And to this day, in, in my life with Camilla and I, which I don't, I like a river. It has some swerves and some-

    9. LF

      Yeah.

    10. MM

      ... some streams and some rapids, but I'm not looking for a tidal wave. My mom's like, (sighs) "What, what's all this, everything so smooth stuff?"

    11. LF

      Yeah.

    12. MM

      "Come on, come on, come on, come on."

    13. LF

      Yeah.

    14. MM

      So she challenges like vitality, 'cause that's what my mom needed to communicate. I don't think my dad needed it as much, uh, that, uh, the, the, the, the, the, the, the hard angles, uh, um, that their relationship through. I don't think my dad needed it as much as my mom.

    15. LF

      But the clashes demonstrated the passion that underlies the love.

    16. MM

      Yes. And that's, I've, I've, I've always been asked, you know, when I talk about my parents' love relationship, I tell the stories that are actually sometimes quite violent.

    17. LF

      Mm-hmm.

    18. MM

      And-

    19. LF

      There's some good stories there.

    20. MM

      They're beautiful. I think they're beautiful. And I-

    21. LF

      Yeah, I think they're beautiful too.

    22. MM

      But I've had people go, "What? Wait a minute. That was unhealthy. You can't..." And I was like, "No, that's, again, back to the beginning. Love's messy." And that, what I love about those stories is that's where the love was actually, you could... it was tested. And it, it could have broke and been over.

    23. LF

      Yeah.

    24. MM

      And it never was. Again, the love won-

    25. LF

      In the kitchen.

    26. MM

      ... on the kitchen floor. The blood's drawn. Knives are pulled.

    27. LF

      Ketchup.

    28. MM

      Ketchup's all over.

    29. LF

      Yeah.

    30. MM

      (laughs) But we make love on the kitchen floor, and-

  3. 5:52 – 18:04

    Dreams

    1. LF

      Uh, what's the memory from childhood that helps set you on the trajectory of becoming the man you are today?

    2. MM

      ... standing on the corner with Mr. Mayer, the principal of Saint Philip School. I was in kindergarten. And I looked up and there's a cloud in the sky. And I said, "Mr. Mayer, is that cloud as big as the world?"

    3. LF

      (laughs)

    4. MM

      And he paused for a minute and he goes, "Well, yes, it is, Matthew." Now, in my seven-year-old mind I went, "Okay. I can see the outlines of it." And that must mean it is so far away, because if that's as big as the world, I remember it took 15 hours just to drive from, from Longview to Florida-

    5. LF

      (laughs)

    6. MM

      ... last year, you know. And, and, and I can't even see that far. So that cloud must be so far off that is not worth me even considering space, dreams, any of that. I was like, "Whew, army. I'm looking down. I'm gonna put my head to the ground, I'm gonna look right in front of me and deal with what's in front of me." Because dealing with dreams and what's out there and not on this earth that gravity holds down, not worth considering. You never make it. It's not even worth imagining. It's, poof, it's fairy dust.

    7. LF

      Mm-hmm.

    8. MM

      So I think I got, learned a lot of self-reliance from that. I think I, I, I, I got a work ethic from that. I think I got a, "Hey, focus on what's right in front of you. Do the deed. Take care of what's in front of you one at a time and slowly notch up your way and hopefully there's some ascension to that." And it wasn't until quite years later, in some ways decades later that I started to go, "Oh. I can project. I can dream." Why? Because literally the first time I got in a plane, and in 30 seconds I was in a cloud, I'm like, "Whoa. We must be going a trillion miles an hour, 'cause we're already in that cloud that was as big as the world that I saw the edge of." And then I grew and learned enough to go, "Well, that's not true. Train, planes don't go that fast. Oh. What Mr. Mayer said wasn't really true. That cloud is not as big as the world, and it's not near as far away as I thought." But I'm glad he lied to me. (laughs)

    9. LF

      What do you think about that, that tension of a way of living life, between being a dreamer and a pragmatist?

    10. MM

      Yeah.

    11. LF

      Which is a better way?

    12. MM

      The honey holes, the, the reciprocity of the two of them. I mean, I can't be present unless I got plans. I wanna, I wanna have the big picture in mind, but I gotta go a day at a time. I like to write the headline or have a, I think we need to have a North Star, something to look forward to. But we all know that if we're staring at it, we're tripping on the way. If we're just, you know, the old, you read the Hallmark cards, which like irk me, you know, "Dream it. You can do it." I think that's a half-ass horrible thing to tell somebody.

    13. LF

      (laughs) Yeah.

    14. MM

      You know? 'Cause, uh, um, and you talk, and then on the other side you have things like, you know, people say, "Hope means nothing." Well, yes, it does. That's the dream. You just don't stop there. There's not a period after that word. Now what do we do practically? And I think that constant tension, when that tension's a dance is when it's beautiful.

    15. LF

      Mm-hmm.

    16. MM

      When it's an osmond. But to see those as contradictions, I think, is where we've, where it's fallen short. So I don't, I, one on their own, if we silo the two, mm. Or if you silo the two, I guess the, the pragmatic's the one to go with, because at least you'll get something done. But if you only silo the dream and don't do anything about it, that's, you're kinda living an illusion, and kinda living in a virtual reality.

    17. LF

      Yeah, it's tricky. Even the people you love can sometimes suffocate the dream, can, uh, make you believe that it's not possible. It feels like a lot of parents kinda want you to be safe, want you to be stable, want you to have a plan so that everything's gonna be okay.

    18. MM

      Yeah.

    19. LF

      And the dream feels like a threat to that.

    20. MM

      Yeah. How much of that, though, I wonder, is, is proper initiation? Because if you're throwing dreams out, I call it conservative or liberal late. Let's learn to block and tackle, let's learn that work ethic, those things, those pragmatics first. Learn the rules of the road, the rules of the game, the things that we can all kind of rely on, this is how the world's supposed to work. Now, doesn't always work that way. You know, you teach a, teach a child to drive, it's like, "Yeah, you stay in the lane, you go the speed limit. This is all helpful." But that doesn't guarantee that no one else is running the red light. But we learn that later. Um, there's an initiation, I think, that's proper with the dream. I mean, you, you, I, I think parents... My parent's very much that way. The idea of going to chase an acting career or something was, "What?" It was, it was, that was a different vernacular. That was, like, not in our... I was taught to work away up a company ladder and nine-to-five, do your job. But the day I brought it up and said I wanted to go to film school, and I thought my dad was gonna go, "You wanna do what, boy?" He was like, gave me some of the best advice ever and told me not to half-ass it, and said, "Go."In between the lines, what he heard from me was, that made him so happy as a father, I believe. It makes any parent happy. Is when our child doesn't ask us permission to go chase a dream.

    21. LF

      Oh, yeah.

    22. MM

      When they're going, "I'm bringing it up to you-

    23. LF

      (laughs) .

    24. MM

      ... with full respect."

    25. LF

      Yeah.

    26. MM

      "But I'm doing this with or without you." That's when a parent goes, (yawns) "Yes. I've done something right enough. I made, I helped my child be secure enough in the pragmatics, to have a foundation enough where they have the courage to go (whistles) 'I'm flying the nest.'"

    27. LF

      To take the leap. You wrote, "After my dad died, I had a dream that left me with a statement, less impressed, more involved."

    28. MM

      Yeah.

    29. LF

      What do those words mean to you?

    30. MM

      We gotta be more than just happy to be here. I'm big on gratitude, but we gotta be more than just thankful to be here. Or dream that you can do it. It's gotta be more than just dream it, you can do it. That's impressed. Uh, the dream is still other than, um, if I'm here and so impressed talking to you today. If I have a reverence to an extent, I will not be able to be involved in this conversation. I'll be too impressed. I'll be anticipating, "Oh, what's that question he's gonna, he's gonna, he's gonna ask? Oh, I think I know where he's going with this. Oh, I think I know what answer he might love to hear. Oh, I..." I'm not involved in conversation. I'm too impressed. So I'm removed from the present. Um, for me, what that literally meant to me when that came to me in a dream and I carved it in, I remember I carved it in a tree.

  4. 18:04 – 29:48

    Fear of death

    1. MM

    2. LF

      What do you make of death? Does it scare you?

    3. MM

      I'm not looking forward to it, but-

    4. LF

      (laughs) .

    5. MM

      ... it does not scare me.

    6. LF

      Do you think about it? Do you visualize it?

    7. MM

      I do.I do. And it's a beautiful visualization, and a beautiful dream when I go as part of the food chain. It's not a good visualization when I go as part of a random act of violence in a fricking drive-by or something. Because the second, the ac- the- the- the accident, it- it- it- it- it- it- it breaks a story that I believe has already been written. Uh, at least I don't have the capacity yet to- to- to put it into a- a- a- a story, a divine story of the lives that we- we live. And so there's something ugly and gross about it. And it happens all the- all the time, uh, you know, to- to- to people all the time. I just feel like when it's part of the food chain, when I go as part of the food chain, I'm like, "Ah, that's poetry."

    8. LF

      Part of the flow of nature, you return to nature.

    9. MM

      Yeah. There's grace and poetry in that.

    10. LF

      Do you miss your father? Think about him?

    11. MM

      When I think about him, I do. Now, when do I think about him? I thought about him yesterday working through a script I'm working on right now, working on scene work. And I just had that quick little reaction of wanting to show him, "Hey, check this out."

    12. LF

      Mm-hmm.

    13. MM

      Uh, I try not to... And then I- I don't get sad, I go, "Yeah, he would've loved- he would've loved this." Whereas my mom wants to be on the stage, my dad would've been on the front row. (laughs)

    14. LF

      (laughs) He's more fun in shows though, too.

    15. MM

      Yeah. And he would've, and he, you know, as- as what, he- he would've- we would've... He knew- he was a character. He knew characters. I've based parts of all kinds of characters I've played and the- and the man that- that I am on people that he introduced me too and who he was. Um, he would've loved the creative process of working on a script or- or talking about, "Hey," movie. That's why I always say I love the movie Mud. Because it's the one that I- I've- I visualized and seeing my dad come to me so many times as a 12-year-old and put his arm around me and go, "Hey, little buddy, you seen this movie called Mud? Goddammit, it's a good one. Let's go watch it." That. Now, my dad was... Never got to see me start a career in film, but he was alive five days into the f- o- he overlapped the first five days of me working on my first film Dazed and Confused. Now, that I think is (smacks lips) there's something beautiful about that. He didn't never ever come to the set. We didn't talk about it, but he was alive for me to start something that was more than a, uh, um, uh, more than a fad. That was something that I- would become something that I love to do. And I do miss not him... You know, and then I go, out of that, do I- I- I- I... We talked about him two nights ago with our- with our daughter. I was- I was rubbing my daughter's feet. And my mom who's living with us, 91, comes in and goes, "Oh, look at you. You're just like your pop." And she's like, "What?" And he goes, "Oh," because my dad loved to rub somebody's feet, rub my mom's feet, rubbed all of me and my brother's girlfriend's feet.

    16. LF

      (laughs)

    17. MM

      When we would have a date-

    18. LF

      Yeah.

    19. MM

      ... they would come over early.

    20. LF

      (laughs)

    21. MM

      Because they knew they were gonna get a foot rub-

    22. LF

      I love it.

    23. MM

      ... from Jim McConaughey, and then we'd come out, me and my two older brothers, on, this has been on for decades. We'd come out of the shower ready to go, buttoned up, and they're looking at me like, "Oh, we ain't going anywhere right now." (laughs)

    24. LF

      (laughs)

    25. MM

      And so we told the story, you know, to my- to my daughter. And I was like, "Ah, yeah, my dad's h- his hands. I miss his hands. His hands could heal."

    26. LF

      So you carry him in you?

    27. MM

      I hope so. I- I- I- I hope so. And- and-

    28. LF

      (sighs)

    29. MM

      It's a, uh, a challenge for me, and I- I suppose it's like this for any son. How much do we hang onto and how much do we let go, and evolve, and update the OS, and- and- and- and- and- and try maybe better or different, you know? It's that, there's certain things that I know that I fully believe in. It's like when do we... Religious, when do we cast away our Father?

    30. LF

      Mm-hmm.

  5. 29:48 – 52:53

    Overcoming pain

    1. LF

    2. MM

      Yeah.

    3. LF

      So what value is there then to, uh, denial? Any?

    4. MM

      Oh, I think there's value to denial if you really commit to it. (laughs)

    5. LF

      (laughs)

    6. MM

      I g- I get this from my mother.

    7. LF

      Yeah.

    8. MM

      (laughs)

    9. LF

      (laughs) So it's a very pragmatic, uh, value.

    10. MM

      Whoa.

    11. LF

      Commit to the denial.

    12. MM

      Okay.

    13. LF

      (laughs)

    14. MM

      And, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and my mom-

    15. LF

      Yeah.

    16. MM

      ... does it to an extent that, that, that, that I'm like, "Mom, do you have any consideration-" (laughs)

    17. LF

      (laughs)

    18. MM

      "... or context of situations?" And she does. This is the thing every time I go... She's not a shallow woman. But if it is not, if it is something, if it is... Something happens-... in her life, that is keeping her from going where she wants to go, or having a- her- her- a joy in her life that she does. She'll straight-ass deny it happened. "It didn't happen." "No, it didn't. Mom," (chuckles) "we're- we're right here. I- I- I heard you-"

    19. LF

      Yeah.

    20. MM

      "... what you said." "No, I didn't. You heard something else." "Mom."

    21. LF

      (laughs) .

    22. MM

      Now, did she get some amnesty on that? She's 91. Hell yeah, she gets some amnesty on that. Um, but I've, she's not... Yeah, does she repeat offend? Yeah, but it's- it's misdemeanors. You know what I mean? I mean, it's like we all, it's part of that thing when you got a family member and you're like, "Yep, that's just what they do. Just go with it." You know? And- and- and it's- and it's- it's ingenious in a way. It's a tool. She does... I think it is more of a trick with her, but she wouldn't even... So ingrained in her, it's not a trick. It's just (whistles) do it. Done. And I- and I- and I- and I... Another reason I bring this up, it's outside of just my mother, is I did this, uh, um, uh, road trip course in this Art of Living event a few weeks ago.

    23. LF

      Mm-hmm.

    24. MM

      Out of the hundreds of thousands of chats that came in and responses that came in afterward, it seemed to me that about 80% of people's challenges and problems even in their life, were something in the past that they were hung up on.

    25. LF

      Mm-hmm.

    26. MM

      That they right, could not seem to get past. And it was, it was holding them from going where they wanted to in their future. And so I thought that was revealing. I would've thought, I- I would've thought that was, I don't know, going at 40%. It was 80, it seemed to be 80%.

    27. LF

      Yeah.

    28. MM

      And then I thought about, okay, if you're here in the live show and you wanna get the course, you're into some sort of therapy or education or development or self-help, whatever. Okay. And I have a lot of friends and I know a lot of people that are in weekly and daily therapy. And then I know there's a lot of people that are on prescriptions, drugs. And while a therapy and the right prescription to the right person for the right, uh, um, diagnosis is- is- is necessary, I- I- I'm questioning, is there value to going, if you're not getting past this today, this week, this month, this year, all of a sudden a decade goes by and you're still hung up. And you can't get rid of that thing in your memory where it was... And you've, it's- it's got you paralyzed. And you're- you're- you're a victim of it. Is there... And you're doing the therapy and you're doing the work, and you're taking a prescription if that's what you're taking. Where does there... Is there a value in going, if it's holding you back from going where you wanna go, maybe you should just deny the fucking thing ever fucking happened?

    29. LF

      Yeah.

    30. MM

      Kick it in the head.

  6. 52:53 – 59:37

    Amazon rainforest

    1. MM

    2. LF

      How did the Amazon, how did the trip there change you? What do you remember of it? Such a magical place.

    3. MM

      I've stripped a lot of my past, symbols and talismans, while I was, while I was there. What I, what I... I remember getting there and, and, and, and just having so much adrenaline on the anticipation, anticipation of getting to the Amazon. In the first 10 days, I wasn't really enjoying the trip. I was just charging to get to the destination, to get to the banks of the river that I had a dream about.

    4. LF

      Mm-hmm.

    5. MM

      And then, it just humbled me. I got so fatigued on night, whatever, 12, and was so sick and tired of the internal dialogue I was having with myself, was not enjoying my company.

    6. LF

      (laughs)

    7. MM

      (laughs) That, you know, I, I, I, I purged. And I remember and, and, and, and stripped off identity markers that I'd sort of been hanging on to for like... Everything from, you know, what it means to be an American, my dad's ring, M for McConaughey, a meltdown of... My mom and dad's class rings from University of Kentucky were gold from her teeth and-

    8. LF

      (laughs)

    9. MM

      ... and, and, and, and, and his class ring melted down. You know, it put... Taking that off was really hard to go, "I'm casting... Am I casting out my father?" No, I wasn't casting him out. I was just removing to say, "I don't have to rely on that being all of my identity." So to pull that off, to- to- to strip down and just... To where I was just a, a mammal-That next morning, I, I was light. I got present. I remember write- writing something down. It's like, "All that I want is what I can see, and what I can see is in front of me." That sense of not... I wasn't leaning around, looking around every corner to get there. And as soon as that hit me, t- talk about mystical successes and realities and truths, as soon as that hit me, and for the first time in 12 days, I didn't care about getting there or what was around the corner, guess what was around the next damn corner? The Amazon. (laughs)

    10. LF

      (laughs)

    11. MM

      I mean, not around a few corners. The next corner, there it was. And that was just like a touche. You know, those times when the prime mover, the universe, God, what we wanna name or believe in says, "Ding, there you go." And (exhales) that form of detachment from holding on for dear life to things in past, so hard that you're not letting the beauty that's right in front of you, th- th- to feel correctly and follow our intuitions, to have those, not cast them out. I didn't burn them. I didn't get rid of those things. I just took them off and had to recognize, you're still here. You are you. You're much more... That is a talisman, that's a symbol. That means something to you, and that's good. Don't cast out the meaning. But it's not like when the ring's off, and the hat's off, and the crucifix is off your neck that you're like, (gasps) you're gonna die. (laughs) And I know. Those are reminders. Hang on to what they mean for you as we go forward. But as we go forward, quit worrying about, so much about... You know, again, I was looking at the proverbial dream, the cloud, so much that I was tripping over myself to get there. And like clockwork, just amazing grace, boom, as soon as it hit me, and I was like, "Ah, that's it. All I want is what I can see, and all I can see is in front of me." Literally looking down at the ground, at what was a sea of 10,000 wild neon blue Amazonian butterflies on the ground. Soon as they fluttered up, my head came up with them. Took a few more steps and, (whistles) "There's the Amazon. That's what you came over here for. Oh, howdy." Those kind of... That, th- th- that truth like that.

    12. LF

      Well, the Amazon's interesting too, because it really has no past or future. You're losing the moment 'cause of how fast it churns.

    13. MM

      Mm-hmm.

    14. LF

      It just eats up life. It like, if a thing dies, it just gets swallowed up. 'Cause, uh, m- maybe because of the humidity, because of all that, because there's so many living creatures that kinda eat each other-

    15. MM

      Mm-hmm.

    16. LF

      ... live on each other. So, it really exists in the moment. And all this kind of diversity of life there, it's so- such an interesting place.

    17. MM

      Talk about food chain.

    18. LF

      Yeah.

    19. MM

      Yeah.

    20. LF

      You're just part of it there.

    21. MM

      Yeah.

    22. LF

      (laughs) We, we humans somehow escaped that food chain. But we're still, the roots are still there.

    23. MM

      Are we arro- I think we're a bit arrogant to think we've escaped. (laughs)

    24. LF

      (laughs) Yeah.

    25. MM

      You think I'm being romantic in that, in that, in that notion?

    26. LF

      Well, sometimes when you're in a big city, when you're in, uh, Austin, Texas and LA, you can think like, "Oh, there's... We're in a car, we're in a house, we're safe." But yeah, somehow, some- somehow nature's still a part of us. Our roots are still a part of us.

    27. MM

      I think it is more than we realize, more than we give it credit for. I- I actually have a... I believe that we are... That it's a really arrogant notion to think that we are separate. Meaning, you know, people talk about pollution and then on a larger scale, the, the, the climate, what have you. I think Earth's gonna be just fine.

    28. LF

      Yeah.

    29. MM

      We may be not be here for it, but I think we have a bit of arrogance sometimes to think that we can trump (laughs) Mother Nature. I think we have more, more of the natural law in us, um, and I sure hope so, if I'm wrong.

  7. 59:37 – 1:12:53

    AI

    1. MM

    2. LF

      Well, there's an interesting... I've recently been, uh, uh... There's a guy named Max Tegmark at MIT who really worries about nuclear war, and he was part of, uh, constructing a simulation of what happens when a nuclear war happens. And it's interesting to see that, uh, you know, some very large percentage of humans on Earth, uh, starve to death, because they don't die first from the explosion, they die from starvation. Because, uh, basically, uh, dust covers the entire North America and entirety of Europe, and, uh, so the crops all die, all the food sources all die, and people suffocate and, um, starve to death. But, you know, the lesson you'll learn from that over a period of a few months, even though most of the human population of Earth dies, Earth finds a way, life finds a way to-

    3. MM

      Adapt.

    4. LF

      ... yeah, to adapt. And it's gonna be just fine.

    5. MM

      Yeah.

    6. LF

      (laughs) In terms of the big, um, living ecosystem that is life on Earth.

    7. MM

      Mm-hmm.

    8. LF

      And, uh, yeah, it's humbling to think about, well, maybe we're just the s- stepping stone. Uh, same thing with... We've talked offline about artificial intelligence. Maybe humans are just the stepping stone to the development of these other super intelligent entities.

    9. MM

      Yeah. Yeah. And is it...... unconsciously in our nature that that's just part of the evolution and adaptation of our species, and we'll, because we're gonna ... We were talking about it earlier, what, what AI becomes is completely 100% based on who we are.

    10. LF

      (laughs) And we get to see it for some time, a mirror to ourselves. Okay, this is what human civilization is like. These, uh, AI systems, large language models, they're trained on human communication, and you get to ask it questions and you get to have conversations with it. And you get to realize, wow, this is what the, uh, the collective intelligence of the human species, our collective wisdom and knowledge, this is what it looks like. All the bias, the hate, um, the paradoxes, all that is in there.

    11. MM

      Yeah.

    12. LF

      Um, the contradictions. You can even convince those models, you can, you can tell them they're lying, and they're gonna start changing-

    13. MM

      Yeah.

    14. LF

      ... their mind. It's interesting to play with them.

    15. MM

      Yeah.

    16. LF

      Uh, it's also interesting to consider that maybe they, uh, they become smarter than us and, uh, become almost life forms that live among us. And maybe one day kind of we merge with them. There's all kinds of possible trajectories that we take here.

    17. MM

      How much of that excites you? How much of it scares you?

    18. LF

      Is it possible to exist in a place where it is both exciting and scary, but to exist in that dance? Mostly I'm really excited, because (sighs) I see human beings as deeply lonely. Like, there's a deep loneliness in all of us. That's how we seek connection. Uh, that's why we seek connection in others. That's why love is so beautiful when we find other people w- we're connected with. And I just think AI can add to that. It can add friends that you can have great conversations with. And it's some of those friends would be AI systems. (laughs) They'll call you out in your bullshit in the most fascinating and interesting of ways, and challenge you, and help you, uh, explore ideas together, so I'm excited by that.

    19. MM

      Is that different? And if so, how? From the internet and Facebooks and these groups and communities that were, I think it's fair to say, set out to say this all access of information and people will help us find more common denominators than divisive ones. Um, is, is it ... Do you see it similar?

    20. LF

      Yeah. It's similar, but further into that direction. I think the internet has done an amazing thing in connecting us and expanding our minds, and helping us find community that feels like our community, and then the communities that are totally different-

    21. MM

      Mm-hmm.

    22. LF

      ... and you learn from them. I mean, Wikipedia alone, one of my favorite websites-

    23. MM

      (laughs) Mine too.

    24. LF

      ... just op- op- opens your mind to all kinds of cool stuff.

    25. MM

      Yeah, it does.

    26. LF

      And-

    27. MM

      Not the Dewey Decimal System anymore.

    28. LF

      (laughs) No. And so, uh, I think AI just open, makes that even easier, 'cause Wikipedia you have to like read, and you have to do a lot of work. Uh, with an AI system, like a large language model, it can just shoot the shit.

    29. MM

      Mm-hmm.

    30. LF

      It's more like drinking a beer-

  8. 1:12:53 – 1:20:58

    Truth

    1. LF

      You ask people to draw a distinction to describe where are you acting and where are you being.

    2. MM

      Mm-hmm.

    3. LF

      Uh, what's the difference? What's, um, what's the difference between being fake, if I may use that word, and being real?

    4. MM

      'Kay.Yeah. And the, the word authentic gets thrown around a lot. And, you know, uh, I, I... And, and I don't mean... And I used to think, I used to be, feel this way, but, but Bob Dylan loosed me up on this idea a little bit.

    5. LF

      (laughs) .

    6. MM

      (laughs) . You think it was all about get to be the, your only one and only true self.

    7. LF

      Yeah.

    8. MM

      That's it. Everything else is fake. And then you hear Bob go, "Well, I mean, we are what we create ourselves to be. We are our own creations." Which I'm like, "Oh, yes. Yes, we are. Thank you, Bob, Bobby." What? I'm all for bullshitters and bullshitting. I'm not as big a fan of liars and lying.

    9. LF

      What's the distinction? Y- you're talking about the art form of bullshit-

    10. MM

      A liar's-

    11. LF

      (laughs) .

    12. MM

      ... a liar's fake, a liar's faking it, but not admitting to themselves that, "Yeah."

    13. LF

      Oh, yeah.

    14. MM

      "It's fucking creation. I'm faking it."

    15. LF

      Yeah.

    16. MM

      Um, uh, a- a- a liar, I'm lying to your face right now, and I don't give you that hair of a wink out of my right eye-

    17. LF

      Yeah.

    18. MM

      ... to let you know, "Hey, go with me here."

    19. LF

      Yeah, yeah. (laughs) .

    20. MM

      I think there's value in the bullshitting.

    21. LF

      Yeah.

    22. MM

      Now, the lying becomes troublesome because, one, I've duped you and I didn't let you know... Come on, I was just telling the story about catching the fish. The fish always gets bigger, every year we tell a story. Come on, go with it. All right?

    23. LF

      Yeah, yeah. Yeah (laughs) .

    24. MM

      But the lying, all of a sudden...

    25. LF

      (laughs) .

    26. MM

      I don't know my own. I don't know when I'm, uh, eminating something and creating something, telling the truth, being authentic or lying. And I'm, shit, all of a sudden I'm leaving crumbs with myself. That constitution gets blurry.

    27. LF

      Lying to yourself and to others.

    28. MM

      Yeah. Well, you start to lie, you lie to others enough, you start to lie to yourself and you don't even know it. And that, I believe, is dangerous territory. That's why I'm trying to push this admit, because that goes... I'm not- I- I'm, I'm trying to come in at a kindergarten level, because we immediately jump to, "Well, I'm a judge that. Boom, that's bad. That's wrong." No, no, no, no, no. (whistles) Hold back on that. (laughs) . Let's, let's go back to base level of let's just admit that we all fucking do it. Lies we tell others, lies we tell ourselves, lies we believe for convenience sake. I do it. I'm guilty of it. I try to catch myself on it, if I can just call it and go, "You know, you're believing that lie out of convenience," um, I know. And then- then I have to ƒ. Either I'm saying that in the mirror or writing it down or sharing with a friend, you know? And I go, "Okay, well, now I've inherently become a bullshitter then, because I admitted it." That I can shake hands with. That's the little slight wink to ourself and someone else to go, "Come on. It's a better story this way."

    29. LF

      In the course road trip, you start with step one, admit. H- how do you do that? How do you, how do you kinda step back and-

    30. MM

      Do that inventory?

  9. 1:20:58 – 1:28:42

    Ego

    1. MM

    2. LF

      Well, you're an interesting case study, because you're one of the most famous, one of the most, uh, charismatic, successful humans in the world. There's a lot... Millions of people love you, hang on every one of your words. That's a hard place to be. How do you call yourself? How do you admit that you've been living a lie? How do you admit to yourself in big ways and small ways on lies at this point, given how many people love you-

    3. MM

      Okay.

    4. LF

      ... how famous you are?

    5. MM

      10 years ago, I don't know. I... I don't know. It was, it was... Someone was talking about like, "Yeah, they really admire this so-and-so person, 'cause they're not someone who looks in the mirror." And I was like, "Yeah." And all of a sudden I was like, "Man, I gotta catch myself looking in the mirror a lot." (laughs)

    6. LF

      (laughs)

    7. MM

      And then I go in and I, you know, look at my, my wife's side of her bathroom, how many different creams and stuff she has out there. And I look at my side, I got a lot more on my side. I'm like, "Oh." (laughs)

    8. LF

      (laughs)

    9. MM

      I notice how if I'm out in public working out, maybe doing pushups, and maybe I do a few more if there's a group of people walking by that maybe I'd like to impress. Then I maybe I do a few more than I'd do if I was on my own. I'm like, "You are vain, McConaughey." (laughs)

    10. LF

      (laughs) Yeah.

    11. MM

      And the knee-jerk is, "Oh, vanity bad, bad." And all of a sudden I was like... All of a sudden I became a bullshitter, once I admitted it. And then I was like, "Well, bravo vanity."

    12. LF

      Yeah.

    13. MM

      "Let's go, vanity. Let's..." Instead of putting it in the cupboard, in the lie section, "Oh, no, I'm vain, 'cause that's a, that's a debit." No. Admit it. And then go, "What's the value in it?"

    14. LF

      Mm-hmm.

    15. MM

      "Well, I can look at... Yeah, I actually got in better shape because of my vanity. Actually, I eat better, and dah-dah-dah-dah-dah, look better, and I have more energy, and, you know, I..." And that led to being a better, better husband, better dad. Doing something with my kids when I'd rather be over there writing-

    16. LF

      Yeah.

    17. MM

      ... this work I'm working on. But I know that tomorrow, better than when they leave town, they're gonna remember this time that we had together here. That's a selfish act to go spend that time with my kids or my... Even though I'd rather not be doing it at that time, I'd rather be doing something for myself. Because when they leave tomorrow, they've got... They'll have this great memory that they spent with their dad right before they went. That, that, that... I could call that vanity. (laughs) I could group that and say, "That's very vain of you." That was for self. Yeah. 'Cause it was also for something and someone that I cared about.

    18. LF

      Are there people in your life that, uh, call you on your bullshit? In the, uh, bad sense of the word bullshit? (laughs)

    19. MM

      Yeah, yeah. Sometimes it's either... I got a pretty thick threshold for how far I can go with my bullshit. Like what bruise... What tickles me might bruise others-

    20. LF

      Mm-hmm.

    21. MM

      ... to watch it.

    22. LF

      (laughs) That's a good line. (laughs) Yeah.

    23. MM

      Um-

    24. LF

      Tickles me, it might bruise others.

    25. MM

      But I also, I go back and talk about the bullshit? That's over there with those mystical successes.

    26. LF

      Hmm.

    27. MM

      It's the, "Yeah, no, no, go with it."

    28. LF

      Mm-hmm.

    29. MM

      "Don't pull the parachute yet. Let's see how far we can go. Let's see how hot it can get. Let's try it one more time."

    30. LF

      Yeah.

  10. 1:28:42 – 1:35:11

    Dallas Buyers Club

    1. LF

      You won an Oscar for your performance in Dallas Buyers Club. Can you tell the story of becoming that character, Ron Woodroof? What was the toughest part?

    2. MM

      Toughest part, which was the most enlightening part, was getting to know who he was in between the lines. We're basing a life story in an hour and a half of film. And the script was great. But who was he in between the lines? Who was he before he started a business, before he was on a crusade, before he went to alternative medicines? And, you know, the, the, the, the obvious thing people always talk about, "Well, how'd you lose all that weight?" That was not hard. That was just a militaristic decision.

    3. LF

      Mm-hmm.

    4. MM

      This is what I'm gonna eat each day, and if I do this each day for a week, I'll lose 2.5 pounds in a week. So I'm gonna give myself five months to do that. 2.5 times as 10. There's you go, there's 47 pounds down. That was like clockwork. So that was easy. That decision was made. I didn't go to Pizza Hut buffet (laughs) and have temptation in front of me. I had certain meals, I ate that and then... And the, and the weight just went off like clockwork. It was the who is Ron Woodroof in between the lines? And what the, the gift I got given that gave me the insight to who that man was, was his... I went to see his family. And his, uh, before I was l- as I was leaving, his family offered me his diary. And I remember kinda hesi- going, "Wow, yes." But I kinda hesitated 'cause it felt maybe a little too intimate of a thing for me to have. It felt like it was kind of maybe infringing a bit. But I opened my hand and took it. And what I got in the diary was I got to know who Ron was before he had HIV. In little thing, the diary he would write in and, and, and the, the, the, the dreamer he was and, and the getting all set on a Sunday night and laying his shirt out and ironing it for the next morning, making sure that his little pager had fresh batteries in it, 'cause tomorrow morning, he was going across town to hook up some speakers-

    5. LF

      Mm-hmm.

    6. MM

      ... for 38 bucks or whatever. And then getting up that morning and writing about what kind of coffee he, he drank and how much gas it was gonna take to get over across town to do that job and hook up those speakers. And then on the way over, page coming in to say, "No, we don't need you. We've gone with somebody else to hook them up."... and here he was all buttoned up, two cups of coffee in, hair slicked over-

    7. LF

      Mm-hmm.

    8. MM

      ... shirt ironed.

    9. LF

      Mm-hmm.

    10. MM

      Little less than half a tank of gas, but enough to get back home. Now, where does this Monday go?

    11. LF

      The hope and the disappointment, so you have to take all that in. That's part of that man.

    12. MM

      I'm not gonna go, I'm just gonna go to Sonic and get a double cheeseburger bacon burger, 'cause Sheila over there, man, she's kind of cute, she always gives me half price on it.

    13. LF

      Yeah.

    14. MM

      Which leads to rolling a joint, hanging out till Sheila gets off of work. Sneaking over to the local motel and shagging up in room 16. That's my lucky number, 16, Sheila!

    15. LF

      (laughs)

    16. MM

      Then wandering out that night. Getting home 1:00 in the morning, no plans for Tuesday. And maybe later in the week, think about, "What am I gonna do about work or a job?" And these little dreams would get, we'd peak and want to, and then something would happen where he wouldn't follow through, or the deal would go down, the deal would go south. That, knowing who, that, that, there's, in there was where I saw who he was a dreamer. And, and, and, and, and he just couldn't catch the break, and didn't follow through. And then I remembered, his family said like, "Oh, yeah, he, he invented it. He got patents on a whole bunch of things, but he never would" ... He had things to get patented, but never would follow through to get the government patent. And then later on you'd see the product be made or sold on QVC or something, they'd be like, "Ron, that was yours!"

    17. LF

      Yeah.

    18. MM

      Or, "They stole your idea! Did you patent that?" And he'd be like, "No." Like, never would... That, that, there's something beautiful and sad about that.

    19. LF

      Yeah.

    20. MM

      That let me inside who he was in his heart, and, uh, and who he wanted to be, and what he was hoping to be and trying to be, but couldn't quite pull off.

    21. LF

      When you go that deep, does, does a part of him stay in you forever? Are you able to let go?

    22. MM

      I, I mean, I hope so. I get, I... Look, there's a tenacity to, to, to survive that I got from him. I... Look, hopefully I can try and find some of that in different ways in any character that I go play, 'cause that's... If you, if you, if you really wanna give a character an obstacle to overcome, a need, I mean, the base one is life and death. Whether that's the need to survive, or the need to stave off extinction. I'm not talking about what the rules, the laws are, the social morays, the manners and graces. I'm fight... You, you gonna fight for your own life in a world that's not supporting you to do so? You... There's a wonderful courage of, "Fuck it. Watch this. What do I got to lose? My life? Or I'm in charge of extending it? Get outta the way, and I'll pick your pocket along the way, whatever it takes." So there's a tenacity to live by whatever means necessary to survive that I, that I, that I'm reminded of, that I learned from Ron.

Episode duration: 2:19:00

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