Michael Malice: Anarchy, Democracy, Libertarianism, Love, and Trolling | Lex Fridman Podcast #128

1. 0:00 – 4:07

   Introduction

   1. LFLex Fridman0:00

      The following is a conversation with Michael Malice, an anarchist, political thinker, author, and a proud part-time Andy Kaufman-like troll, in the best sense of that word, on both Twitter and in real life. He's a host of a great podcast called You're Welcome, spelled Y-O-U-R. I think that gives a sense of his sense of humor. He is the author of Dear Reader: The Unauthorized Autobiography of Kim Jong Il and The New Right: A Journey to the Fringe of American Politics. This latter book, when I read it, or rather listened to it last year, helped me start learning about the various disparate movements that I was under-educated about, from the internet trolls to Alex Jones to white nationalists and to techno anarchists. The book is funny and brilliant, and so is Michael. Unfortunately, because of a self-imposed deadline, I actually pulled an all-nighter before this conversation. So I was not exactly all there mentally, even more so than usual, which is tough because Michael is really quick-witted and brilliant. But he was kind, patient, and understanding in this conversation, and I hope you will be as well. Today, I'm trying something a little new, looking to establish a regular structure for these intros. A first, doing the guest intro, like I just did. Second, quick one or two sentence mention of each sponsor. Third, my side comments related to the episode. And finally, fourth, full ad reads on the audio side of things, and on YouTube, going straight to the conversation, so not doing the full ad reads. And as always, no ads in the middle, because to me, they get in the way of the conversation. So quick mention of the sponsors. First, SEMrush, the most advanced SEO optimization tool I've ever come across. I don't like looking at numbers, but someone probably should. It helps you make good decisions. Second sponsor is DoorDash, food delivery service that I've used for many years to fuel long, uninterrupted sessions of deep work at Google, MIT, and I still use it a lot today. Third sponsor is MasterClass, online courses from the best people in the world on each of the topics covered, from rockets to game design to poker to writing and to guitar with Carlos Santana. Please check out these sponsors in the description to get a discount and to support this podcast. As a side note, let me say that I hope to have some conversations with political thinkers, including liberals and conservatives, anarchists, libertarians, objectivists, and everything in between. I'm as allergic to Trump bashing and Trump worship as you probably are. I have none of that in me. I really work hard to be open-minded and let my curiosity drive the conversation. I do plead with you to be patient on two counts. First, I have an intense, busy life outside of these podcasts. Like it's 4:00 AM right now as I'm recording this. (laughs) So sometimes life affects these conversations, like in this case, I pull an all-nighter beforehand. So please be patient with me if I say something ineloquent, confusing, dumb, or just plain wrong. I'll try to correct myself on social media or in future conversations as much as I can. I really am always learning and working hard to improve. Second, if I or the guest says something about, for example, our current president, Donald Trump, that's over the top negative or over the top positive, please don't let your brain go into the partisan mode. Try to hear our words in an open-minded, nuanced way. And if we say stuff from a place of emotion, please give us a pass. Nuanced conversation can only happen if we're patient with each other. If you enjoy this thing, subscribe on YouTube, review it with five stars on Apple Podcasts, follow on Spotify, support on Patreon, or connect with me on Twitter @lexfridman. And now, here's my conversation with Michael Malice.

2. 4:07 – 11:10

   Putin and the Russian soul

   1. MMMichael Malice4:07

      There was a Simpsons episode where he starts mixing, like, um, sleeping pills with, like, pep pills and he's driving his truck. And I'm like, "I wanna see what happens if he mixed Red Bull and

   2. LFLex Fridman4:15

      That's a lineup of drugs. (laughs)

   3. MMMichael Malice4:21

      (laughs) This is gonna be so fun.

   4. LFLex Fridman4:22

      This is gonna be s- yeah. Let's start with love.

   5. MMMichael Malice4:25

      Yes. Я тебя люблю очень много 　 .

   6. LFLex Fridman4:28

      Yeah, so one- one thing we'll eventually somehow talk about, it'll be a theme throughout, is that you're also Russian.

   7. MMMichael Malice4:34

      Yes.

   8. LFLex Fridman4:35

      A little bit less than me. But, uh-

   9. MMMichael Malice4:37

      How la- uh, why? 'Cause I'm from Ukraine?

   10. LFLex Fridman4:39

       Oh, you're from Ukraine? Where you met-

   11. MMMichael Malice4:41

       From Lviv.

   12. LFLex Fridman4:41

       Okay, wow. No, because you came here a little bit when you were younger.

   13. MMMichael Malice4:44

       Yeah.

   14. LFLex Fridman4:45

       I- I- I came here when I was 13, so I saturated a little bit of the Russian soul. I- I marinated in the Russian soul a little deeper.

   15. MMMichael Malice4:52

       I- I haven't told anyone this, but I'll be glad to tell you, Давидыч, um, I haven't been back since I was two. And next summer, it looks like me and my buddy, Chris Williamson, who's also a podcaster, he's British, Modern Wisdom, he looks like Apollo. We're- we- looks like we got a videographer with him.

   16. LFLex Fridman5:07

       Which Apollo? Apollo 3?

   17. MMMichael Malice5:08

       The god, he looks like the god Apollo.

   18. LFLex Fridman5:10

       Oh. (laughs)

   19. MMMichael Malice5:10

       Yeah, he's like a modern.

   20. LFLex Fridman5:11

       I thought-

   21. MMMichael Malice5:11

       Um-

   22. LFLex Fridman5:11

       ... I thought you were talking about Rocky.

   23. MMMichael Malice5:12

       (laughs) So we're gonna go for the first time to see where I came from.

   24. LFLex Fridman5:18

       Which is in Ukraine.

   25. MMMichael Malice5:19

       And film it. We're gonna go to Lviv and either Saint Petersburg or Moscow, probably Saint Petersburg, or both. It's gonna be intense. There's gonna be a lot of panic attacks I feel.

   26. LFLex Fridman5:28

       And your Russian is okay?

   27. MMMichael Malice5:30

       Ты меня... Как ты думаешь? Хорошо? Понимаешь? 　 Ну, you can't talk Russian in Ukraine or it's like a s- it- they get offended.

   28. LFLex Fridman5:37

       Yeah. But then you also wanna go to Russia.

   29. MMMichael Malice5:40

       Yeah.

   30. LFLex Fridman5:41

       I don't know. Uh, for me, uh, there's several people in Russia I want to interview on a podcast.
3. 11:10 – 21:40

   Love and trolling

   1. LFLex Fridman11:10

      So speaking of which, let's talk about love.

   2. MMMichael Malice11:12

      Yes.

   3. LFLex Fridman11:13

      (laughs) Which requires to be receptive of the world.

   4. MMMichael Malice11:17

      Yes.

   5. LFLex Fridman11:17

      Of strangers.

   6. MMMichael Malice11:18

      Agreed.

   7. LFLex Fridman11:19

      How do we put more love out there in the world, especially on the internet?

   8. MMMichael Malice11:25

      One mechanism I have found to pro- um, increase love, and that's a word that has many meanings and is, you know, used in a very intense sense, and it's used in a very loose sense.

   9. LFLex Fridman11:35

      Can you try to define love?

   10. MMMichael Malice11:37

       Sure. Love is a strong sense of attraction toward a-another person, entity, or place that causes one to tend to react in a disproportionally positive manner. That's off the top of my head.

   11. LFLex Fridman11:54

       Disproportionally?

   12. MMMichael Malice11:55

       Yes.

   13. LFLex Fridman11:56

       Hmm.

   14. MMMichael Malice11:56

       So for example, if you-

   15. LFLex Fridman11:57

       Why not proportionally?

   16. MMMichael Malice11:58

       Because, like, if you're... someone's about to, who you love, is about to get harmed, you're moving heaven and earth....to make sure, uh... Or like a book you love. You know, like I love this book. Like, you're going through the fire to try to save it. Whereas if it's a book you really like, it's like, "Hmm, I'll get another one." It... I don't... You know, uh, and a book's a, kind of a loose example. But-

   17. LFLex Fridman12:18

       So you're going with the love that's like you're saving for just a few people, almost like romantical, like love for a close family.

   18. MMMichael Malice12:25

       But it's also-

   19. LFLex Fridman12:25

       But what about just love to even the broader, like the kind of love you can put out to people on the internet, which is like just kindness?

   20. MMMichael Malice12:33

       Sure. I would say in that case it's important to make them feel, uh, um, seen and validated. And I try to do this when people who I have come to know on the internet, and there's a lot, uh, I try to do that as much as possible because I don't think it's valid how on social media, and I do this a lot myself but not towards everyone, it's just there to be aggressive and antagonistic. You should be antagonistic towards bad people, and that's fine. But at the same time, there's lots of great people. And especially with my audience, and I would bet disproportionately with yours, there's a lots of people who are, because of their psychology and intelligence, are going to be much more isolated socially than they should. And if I... And I've heard from many of them. And if I'm the person who makes them feel, "Oh, I'm not crazy. It's everyone else around me who is just basic," uh, the fact that I can be that person, which I didn't have at their age, to me is incredibly reaffirming.

   21. LFLex Fridman13:32

       You mean, like a source of love?

   22. MMMichael Malice13:34

       But... I mean love in the sense of like, you know, you care about this person and you want good things for them, not in a kind of romantic way. But I mean, you're using in a broad sense now.

   23. LFLex Fridman13:42

       Yeah. But you're also a person who kind of, I mean, uh, attacks the power structures in the world by mocking them-

   24. MMMichael Malice13:53

       Yes.

   25. LFLex Fridman13:53

       ...effectively.

   26. MMMichael Malice13:54

       Yes.

   27. LFLex Fridman13:54

       And, uh, love, I would say, requires you to be non-witty and simple and fragile, which I see it as like the opposite of what trolls do.

   28. MMMichael Malice14:08

       Trolls are... If I... If there is someone coming after what I love, there's two mechanisms, right? At least two. I go up and I'm fighting them, and in which case, you're bringing... if... You are getting hurt in a knife fight, even if you win the knife fight. Or if you disarm them and you preclude the possibility of a fight and you drive them off or render them powerless, you can... You keep your person intact, uh, as yourself and you also protect your values.

   29. LFLex Fridman14:39

       Uh, so how do you render them powerless?

   30. MMMichael Malice14:41

       As you just said, by mocking them. One of the most effective mechanism for those in power... We're much closer to Brave New World than 1984. The people who are dominant and in power aren't there because of the threat of, you know, the gulag or prison. They're there because of social pressures. Look at the masks. Uh, I was on the subway not that long ago in New York City. Um, no one cared who I was (laughs) until I put off the mask.
4. 21:40 – 27:12

   Problem with government

   1. MMMichael Malice21:40

   2. LFLex Fridman21:40

      Oh, sure. Do- do you think there is concrete groups? Like, is it as simple as the two groups of blue and red?

   3. MMMichael Malice21:47

      No, it's- it's- it's- it's- it's also very fluid, because you and I are allied as Jewish people, as Russians, as males, as podcasters. Uh, you're an academic, I'm not. There... So there's- we're- we're different, but we each are a Venn diagram, even within ourselves. And I can talk to you about politics, and then we can talk about Russia stuff, and then you could talk about your- y- your work, which I don't know anything about, so that would be where you're way up here and I'm way down here. So there's lots... Every relationship with... just between individuals, there's... it's very dynamic.

   4. LFLex Fridman22:18

      So how do we secede? Like, how do we form individual states where-

   5. MMMichael Malice22:22

      Sure.

   6. LFLex Fridman22:23

      ... there's a little bit more cohesion?

   7. MMMichael Malice22:26

      Sure. The- the... And voluntary cohesion. So the first step-

   8. LFLex Fridman22:28

      Voluntary cohesion, yeah.

   9. MMMichael Malice22:28

      ... is to, uh, um, eliminate an- the concept of political authority as legitimate, and to denigrate and humiliate those who would put themselves in a position in which they are there to tell you how to live your life from any semblance of- of validity. And that's starting to happen. Um, if you look at what they had with the lockdowns, Cuomo and de Blasio in New York. Uh, we have... I was, uh, tired a couple weeks ago, and I said to my friend, "Oh, just check, maybe I have COVID." And he goes, "It's not possible." I go, "What do you mean?" And he goes, "We haven't had any deaths in like two months, and there's only like 100 cases a day for like two months." And I go, "You're- you're exaggerating," 'cause everything was still closed.

   10. LFLex Fridman23:10

       Mm-hmm.

   11. MMMichael Malice23:11

       And I looked at the numbers, and he wasn't exaggerating. And there's no greater American dream to me than an immigrant family comes to the States, forms their own little business, maybe mom's a good cook, it's a restaurant, dry cleaner, fruit stand. And those people aren't gonna have a lot of money. Those are the first ones who lost their companies because of these lockdowns. Uh, they... Cuomo, who's the governor of New York, opened up the gyms. He said, "You're clear to open up." de Blasio said, "Uh, we don't have enough inspectors, you're gonna have to wait another couple of weeks." Uh, to regard that as anything other than literally criminal is something that I am h- having a harder and harder time wrapping my head around.

   12. LFLex Fridman23:51

       Y- you said... I mean, that's something I'm deeply worried about as well, which is, like, thousands, it's actually millions, of dreams being crushed, that Amer- American dream of starting a business, of running a business.

   13. MMMichael Malice24:03

       What about all the young people who you and I have in our audiences who are socially isolated at best?And now they can't leave their homes. Uh, isolation and ostracism are things that are very well studied in psychology. These have extreme consequences. I read a book called Ostracism and this wasn't scientific, but basically the author was a psychiatrist, psychologist, whatever. And he had one of his colleagues, they did an experiment, "Let's for a week, you ostracize me completely." We know it's an ... and he goes, even knowing it's the experiment, the fact that he wouldn't make eye contact with me and the fact that he ignored me, had a extreme emotional impact on me, knowing full well this is purely for experimental purposes. Now you multiply that by all these pe- the suicide, the number of kids who were thinking about suicide was through the roof during all this. Uh, and my point is, until these people, it- it's gonna ... I- I would predict like 2024, that's when we're gonna have to start having conversations about what personal consequences have to be done for these people because until then, they're going to do the same thing.

   14. LFLex Fridman25:03

       So you think there's going to be society wide consequences of this that we're going to see, like ripple effects because of the social isolation?

   15. MMMichael Malice25:10

       I- I- no, I mean, we also need to talk about consequences for Cuomo and de Blasio because if- if politicians respond to incentives and the incentives are there for them to be extremely conservative, because if you have to choose, as Cuomo said in a press conference, between 1,000 people dying and 1,000 people losing their business, it's not a hard choice, and he's right. But at a certain point, it's like, all right, you're losing both. You're losing, not losing the ... you're- you're making these decisions, um, and not having consequences for it, and you're going to do it again the next time, so we need to make sure you're- you're a little scared.

   16. LFLex Fridman25:41

       Okay.

   17. MMMichael Malice25:41

       And I don't know what that would mean.

   18. LFLex Fridman25:43

       But you're laying this problem, this- this incompetence-

   19. MMMichael Malice25:48

       I don't think it's incompetence. I think it's very competent. I think their d- their job is to be able-

   20. LFLex Fridman25:53

       It's malevolence.

   21. MMMichael Malice25:53

       Yes.

   22. LFLex Fridman25:54

       But i- wha- but you're laying it not at the, at the hands of the individuals, but the structure of the, of government.

   23. MMMichael Malice26:01

       It's both, yes.

   24. LFLex Fridman26:03

       How- how would we deal with it better without centralized control?

   25. MMMichael Malice26:08

       Well, we didn't really have centralized control 'cause every country and every state, you know, handled it in a different mechanism.

   26. LFLex Fridman26:12

       But a city has centralized control.

   27. MMMichael Malice26:15

       Just ... yeah.

   28. LFLex Fridman26:15

       Right? I mean-

   29. MMMichael Malice26:16

       No, that's not true.

   30. LFLex Fridman26:17

       Yes.
5. 27:12 – 49:16

   Anarchism

   1. MMMichael Malice27:12

   2. LFLex Fridman27:13

      So fundamentally, what is the problem with the state that-

   3. MMMichael Malice27:16

      Its existence.

   4. LFLex Fridman27:17

      (laughs) Okay. Well, but- but, uh, uh, to play Angel's advocate again, (laughs) you know, government is the people.

   5. MMMichael Malice27:27

      Oh, come on. You don't ... y- y- you're s- do you not ... do you really think this?

   6. LFLex Fridman27:31

      A- as best I think is possible, to have represen- representation.

   7. MMMichael Malice27:35

      Can you imagine if like you have an attorney? You're like, "Oh, you can't have the attorney you want. You're gonna have this guy who you absolutely hate, who you share no values with." Why?

   8. LFLex Fridman27:42

      Because he drives ... I mean, leaders, political leaders and political representation drive the discourse. Like we, you know, uh, uh, the majority of people voted for him or whatever, however- however you define that, and now we get to have a discussion, well, was this the right choice? And then we get to make that choice again in- in four years and so on.

   9. MMMichael Malice28:04

      First of all, the fact that I have to be under the thumb of somebody four years makes no sense. There's no other relationship that's like this, including marriage. Uh, you can leave any other relationship at any time, number one. Number two is-

   10. LFLex Fridman28:16

       You could always impeach.

   11. MMMichael Malice28:17

       Well, they did that.

   12. LFLex Fridman28:18

       Part of it, I'm in- in jest, saying that.

   13. MMMichael Malice28:20

       Yeah.

   14. LFLex Fridman28:20

       There's ... yeah. The mechanisms are, uh, flawed in many ways, yeah.

   15. MMMichael Malice28:24

       Yeah. Right. And- and so that's number one. Number two is, it doesn't make sense that if I don't want someone to represent me, that because that person is popular that they are now in a position to ... so having, uh, um, representation and- and having citizenship based on geography is a pre-landline technology in a post-cell phone world. There's no reason why I have to, just 'cause we're physically in-between two oceans, we all have to be represented by the same people, whereas I can very easily have my security be under someone and switch it as easily as cell phone providers.

   16. LFLex Fridman28:58

       So okay, but it doesn't have to be geographical. It can be ideas.

   17. MMMichael Malice29:02

       Sure.

   18. LFLex Fridman29:02

       I mean, this country represents a certain set of ideas.

   19. MMMichael Malice29:05

       Yes, it does.

   20. LFLex Fridman29:05

       It started out geographically, it still is geographic-

   21. MMMichael Malice29:08

       It was both. It started off as ideas as well.

   22. LFLex Fridman29:10

       But like, there's a ... it's ... it was intricately ... I mean, it's the- that's the way humans are is there's ... I mean, there was no internet.

   23. MMMichael Malice29:17

       Sure.

   24. LFLex Fridman29:17

       So it was ... you were geographically in the same location and you sign a bunch of documents and then you kind of debated and you wrote a bunch of stuff and then you agreed on it. Okay. So-

   25. MMMichael Malice29:27

       I- but-

   26. LFLex Fridman29:27

       So-

   27. MMMichael Malice29:27

       Do you understand that no one signed these documents and no one agreed to it? As Lysander Spooner pointed out o- over 150 years ago, the Constitution or this social contract, if anything, is only binding to the signatories, um, and even then, they're all long dead. Uh, so it's- it's this fallacy that somehow because I'm in a physical place, I have agreed, even though I'm screaming it into your face that I don't agree-

   28. LFLex Fridman29:49

       Yeah.

   29. MMMichael Malice29:49

       ... to be, um, subordinate to, uh, some imaginary, invisible monster that was created 250 years ago. Uh, and this idea of like if you don't like it, you have to move, that's not what freedom means. Freedom means I do what I want, not what you want. So if you don't like it, you move.

   30. LFLex Fridman30:04

       Okay. Just to put some ... I don't like words and terms.
6. 49:16 – 51:08

   Politics

   1. MMMichael Malice49:16

   2. LFLex Fridman49:16

      So as an anarchist, what do you do in a society like this? Uh...

   3. MMMichael Malice49:21

      Thrive. (laughs) I think I'm doing okay.

   4. LFLex Fridman49:24

      (laughs) No.

   5. MMMichael Malice49:25

      (laughs)

   6. LFLex Fridman49:26

      I- I mean, um, I mean there's an election coming up. There's a, as- as you talk, a You're Welcome is one of the 15 shows that you host.

   7. MMMichael Malice49:41

      (laughs)

   8. LFLex Fridman49:42

      (laughs)

   9. MMMichael Malice49:42

      It's the, it's down to one.

   10. LFLex Fridman49:44

       Okay, it's down to one.

   11. MMMichael Malice49:45

       Yeah.

   12. LFLex Fridman49:46

       But I'm a big fan. (laughs) You, you talk about libertarianism a little bit.

   13. MMMichael Malice49:51

       Yeah.

   14. LFLex Fridman49:52

       I mean, is- is there some practical political direction, like in terms of we as a society should- should go? I don't mean we as a nation, I mean we as a collective of people should go to uh, to make a better world from an anarchist point of view?

   15. MMMichael Malice50:09

       Sure. Uh, I think politics is the enemy. Uh, and anything-

   16. LFLex Fridman50:13

       How do you define politics?

   17. MMMichael Malice50:14

       The state.

   18. LFLex Fridman50:15

       So like-

   19. MMMichael Malice50:15

       The government.

   20. LFLex Fridman50:15

       Okay.

   21. MMMichael Malice50:16

       So anything that lessens its sway on people, anything that delegitimizes it, is good. I wrote an article a few years ago about how wonderful it is that Trump is regarded as such a buffoon, because it's very, very useful to have a commander-in-chief who's regarded as a clown, because y- it's gonna take a lot to get him to convince your kids to go overseas and start killing people and making widows and orphans, as well as those kids coming home in caskets. Whereas if someone is regarded with prestige, and they're like, "Oh, we need to send your kid overseas." "Oh, absolutely. I mean, this guy's great." So that is a very healthy thing where people are skeptical of the state.

   22. LFLex Fridman50:57

       But there's a lot of people that uh, regard him as- as one of the greatest leaders we've ever had.

   23. MMMichael Malice51:04

       (laughs) Yeah. Dinesh D'Souza, he's another Lincoln.

   24. LFLex Fridman51:07

       I,

7. 51:08 – 58:17

   Are most people capable of thinking deeply?

   1. LFLex Fridman51:08

      when you talk shit about Trump or talk shit about Biden, I just, like I- I'm trying to find a line to walk where you, they don't immediately put you into the, "This person has Trump derangement syndrome," or they have, the other, the alternative to that.

   2. MMMichael Malice51:25

      But I- I'm more than happy when people are preemptively dismissing me because then I don't have to waste time engaging with them, 'cause those people would be of no use to me.

   3. LFLex Fridman51:33

      (sighs) Yeah.

   4. MMMichael Malice51:33

      When I was on Tim Pool recently, Tim Pool Show, uh, Tim Pool's known for his little like hat. I got a propeller beanie, motorized, and it was just spinning the whole t- two hours, you know-

   5. LFLex Fridman51:42

      I understand.

   6. MMMichael Malice51:42

      ... like a 1950s thing. The point being, I wore it because there's lots of people who would say, "I can't take seriously someone who wears a hat like that." And my point being, if you are the kind of person who takes your cues based on someone's wardrobe as opposed to the content of your ideas, you are of no use to me as an ally. So I'd be more than happy, you preemptively abort rather than waste our breath trying to engage.

   7. LFLex Fridman52:05

      But this is the deep, this is a very, very deep thing that you and I disagree on.

   8. MMMichael Malice52:10

      Okay.

   9. LFLex Fridman52:10

      Which is, this is goes to the trolling versus the love, uh, is I believe that person instinctually dismisses you on the very basic surface level.

   10. MMMichael Malice52:20

       Yes.

   11. LFLex Fridman52:21

       But deep down, there actually, there is a wealth of a human being that seeks the connection, that seeks to understand deeply, to connect with other humans that we should speak to. So I-

   12. MMMichael Malice52:36

       I- I- I, yeah, you and I completely disagree.

   13. LFLex Fridman52:37

       (laughs) So you're saying like-

   14. MMMichael Malice52:40

       I'm saying there's no mind there literally.

   15. LFLex Fridman52:41

       G- okay. So let's, I- I naturally think-

   16. MMMichael Malice52:45

       I'm not exaggerating.

   17. LFLex Fridman52:45

       ... the majority, so I naturally think the majority of people are, have the capacity to be thoughtful, intelligent, and um, you know, learn about ideas, ideas that they instinctually based on their own like s- c- current inner circle disagree with, and learn to understand, to empathize with the other. Where like, I, I am in the current climate, there's a divisiveness that discourages that, and I, that's where I see the value of love of- of encouraging people to- to uh, to s- strip away that surface instinctual response based on the thing they've been taught, based on the things they listen to, to actually think deeply. And-

   18. MMMichael Malice53:32

       Have you ever had, uh, gone to CVS or Duane Reade, and your bill, how much you owe them is $6, and you give them a $10 bill in a single, and watch the look on their face? You watch them void their bowels and panic because you've given them $11 on a $6 bill?

   19. LFLex Fridman53:49

       Mm-hmm.

   20. MMMichael Malice53:49

       This is not a mind capable or interested in thoughts and ideas and learning.

   21. LFLex Fridman53:54

       No, you're talking about the first moment of uh, a f- a first moment where there's an opportunity to think.

   22. MMMichael Malice54:02

       They are desperate to avoid it.

   23. LFLex Fridman54:05

       No, they're just, it's-

   24. MMMichael Malice54:07

       And incapable of it.

   25. LFLex Fridman54:08

       I, I just, it's, uh, they're, they have the same exact experiences I have every single day when I know it's time for me to go on a- on a run of five miles or six miles or 10 miles. I'm desperate to avoid it, and at- at the same time, I know I have the capacity to do it, and I'm deeply fulfilled when I do do it, when I do overcome that challenge.

   26. MMMichael Malice54:30

       You are one of the great minds of our generation.

   27. LFLex Fridman54:33

       Uh-huh.

   28. MMMichael Malice54:33

       You are telling me that any of these people can do anything close to the work you do?

   29. LFLex Fridman54:38

       Not in artificial intelligence, but in the, uh, in, um, i- inability to be compassionate towards other people's ideas. Like-

   30. MMMichael Malice54:48

       Could-
8. 58:17 – 1:04:16

   Willy Wonka and Albert Camus view of life

   1. LFLex Fridman58:17

      But like when I open Twitter, I'm energized. There's a lot of love on Twitter. People say like, uh-

   2. MMMichael Malice58:24

      I love Tw- I agree. I have a ... You don't think I have a lot of love on Twitter? My fans pay my rent.

   3. LFLex Fridman58:29

      I mean, I don't know your, like, experience of Twitter. But when I look at your t- which is a fundamentally different thing. I'm saying my experience from the ... So maybe you can tell me what your experience is like as a human. So when I observe your Twitter, I think I, I don't, I wouldn't call it love. I would call it fun.

   4. MMMichael Malice58:50

      Yes.

   5. LFLex Fridman58:50

      And, and, and because of that, that's a different kind of the ... Like, love emerges from that.

   6. MMMichael Malice58:56

      Yes.

   7. LFLex Fridman58:56

      Because people kinda learn that we're having, this is like game night. Like-

   8. MMMichael Malice59:02

      Yes.

   9. LFLex Fridman59:03

      ... uh, you know, we're, we can talk shit a little bit.

   10. MMMichael Malice59:06

       Yes.

   11. LFLex Fridman59:06

       We can, uh, and you can, you can even like pull in, you can make fun of people. You can have the crazy uncle come over that, um, is a huge Trump supporter, or somebody who hates Trump, and you can have a little fun.

   12. MMMichael Malice59:19

       Yes.

   13. LFLex Fridman59:19

       Again, it's a different kind of thing. I, I wouldn't be able to, um, uh, be the ... You're the host of game night?

   14. MMMichael Malice59:26

       Yes, yes.

   15. LFLex Fridman59:27

       So (laughs) I wouldn't be able to host that kinda game night. Yeah, I, I-

   16. MMMichael Malice59:30

       (laughs) I'm imagining you programming your robots.

   17. LFLex Fridman59:32

       (laughs)

   18. MMMichael Malice59:32

       And you're asking, "What is fun?"

   19. LFLex Fridman59:34

       (laughs)

   20. MMMichael Malice59:34

       And it just starts sparking things

   21. NANarrator59:35

       (laughs)

   22. LFLex Fridman59:35

       Exactly. Yeah.

   23. MMMichael Malice59:37

       What is fun?

   24. LFLex Fridman59:38

       (laughs)

   25. MMMichael Malice59:39

       (laughs)

   26. LFLex Fridman59:40

       So the robots-

   27. MMMichael Malice59:41

       (laughs)

   28. LFLex Fridman59:41

       ... in my life that survive are the ones that, (laughs) that don't, that like survive that whole programming (laughs) uh, process. So they're kinda like, they're kinda like the idiot from Dostoevsky. They're very, like, simple-minded (laughs) robots.

   29. MMMichael Malice59:55

       (laughs)

   30. LFLex Fridman59:56

       It's just ...
9. 1:04:16 – 1:08:35

   Trolling

   1. MMMichael Malice1:04:17

   2. LFLex Fridman1:04:17

      But the trolling, there's a destructive thing to it.

   3. MMMichael Malice1:04:20

      Yes.

   4. LFLex Fridman1:04:20

      That hurts others.

   5. MMMichael Malice1:04:22

      Bad people, yes.

   6. LFLex Fridman1:04:22

      But it's not bad people. So-

   7. MMMichael Malice1:04:25

      I o- I only troll as a reaction or towards those in power.

   8. LFLex Fridman1:04:28

      Okay. So maybe let's talk about trolling a little bit, because trolling when it can, maybe you can correct me, but I've seen it become a game for people that's enjoyable in itself.

   9. MMMichael Malice1:04:41

      I, I'm not a, I'm not a, I, I, I disagree with that. That's not a good thing. If you are there just to hurt innocent people, you are a horrible human being.

   10. LFLex Fridman1:04:50

       But doesn't trolling too easily become that?

   11. MMMichael Malice1:04:54

       Uh, I don't know about easily. Let me give you an example of the, the, where trolling came from. The original troll was Andy Kaufman.

   12. LFLex Fridman1:05:01

       Yep.

   13. MMMichael Malice1:05:01

       He was on the show Taxi. He was a stan- he was a performance artist, not a stand-up comedian. And this is a quintessential example of trolling. He had a character, um, where he was basically like a lounge singer. He had these glasses on, uh, and just a terrible, a terrible singer and so on and so forth, and he denied it was him! And he came out and I'm, I'm blanking on the guy's name. I can't believe it. Tony Clifton.

   14. LFLex Fridman1:05:22

       Yeah, yeah.

   15. MMMichael Malice1:05:23

       He came out in the audience and he goes, "You know, my wife died a few years ago. Every time I look at my daughter Sarah's eyes, I can see my wife. Sarah, come out here. Let's do a duet." And Sarah was like 11, sits on his lap, they start singing duet, her voice cracks. He smacks her across the face. "What the hell are you doing? You're making ass at me in front of these people." They're, they're, she starts crying. The audience is booing. And he goes, "Don't boo her. You're just gonna make her cry more." Now, it ends, this wasn't his daughter. It wasn't even a child. It was an actress. This was all set up. He's exploiting their love of children-

   16. LFLex Fridman1:05:57

       Yeah.

   17. MMMichael Malice1:05:57

       ... in order to force them to be performers. That is trolling. No one is actually getting hurt. It's a humorous though twisted exchange. If you go online looking for weak people and you are there to denigrate them just for them being weak or in some way inferior to you, that is the wrong approach. I am best on the counterpunch. A lot of times people come to me and they'll be like, "I hope you die. You're ugly. You're disgusting." And there's this great quote from Billy Idol, which I'm gonna mangle, where he says something to the effect of, "I love it when people are rude to me, then I can stop pretending to be nice." Then you start fights. Now it's a chance for me to finish it and make an example of this person. But that's very, very different from I'm gonna go around and humiliate people for the sake of doing it, in my view.

   18. LFLex Fridman1:06:45

       Yeah.

   19. MMMichael Malice1:06:46

       And I can see how one would lead to the other.

   20. LFLex Fridman1:06:48

       Yeah. But that's my fundamental concern with this. So I, my dream is to put, use technolo-... Create platforms that, uh, increase the amount of love in the world. And, to me, trolling is doing the opposite. So, like, Andy Kaufman is brilliant, so I love obviously... (laughs) It sounds like I'm a robot saying it. I love humor, okay? (laughs)

   21. MMMichael Malice1:07:15

       (laughs)

   22. LFLex Fridman1:07:15

       Humor is good. (laughs)

   23. MMMichael Malice1:07:17

       (laughs) 11101111.

   24. LFLex Fridman1:07:19

       But (laughs) -

   25. MMMichael Malice1:07:21

       (laughs)

   26. LFLex Fridman1:07:21

       ... but like, it's, I just see like 4chan, I see that... You can often see that humor quickly turn.

   27. MMMichael Malice1:07:29

       Yeah. Because what happens is a lot of low-status people, this is their one mechanism, through sadism, uh, to feel empowered, and then they can hide behind, "Well, I'm just joking." Uh, and-

   28. LFLex Fridman1:07:40

       Yeah, like there's this dark thing starting-

   29. MMMichael Malice1:07:41

       Yeah, that's not acceptable, and that's something I'm not a fan of.

   30. LFLex Fridman1:07:42

       ... that there's a dark LOL that people do, which is like, they'll say, like, the shittiest thing-
10. 1:08:35 – 1:25:52

    Conspiracy theories

    1. LFLex Fridman1:08:35

       um, a neighboring concept of that is conspiracy theories, which is-

    2. MMMichael Malice1:08:39

       I don't think they're neighboring at all. I... S- go ahead please.

    3. LFLex Fridman1:08:42

       Well, let me, let me give a-

    4. MMMichael Malice1:08:43

       Yeah, so-

    5. LFLex Fridman1:08:43

       ... sort of pers- naive perspective. Maybe you can educate me on this. From my perspective, conspiracy theories are these constructs of ideas that go deeper and deeper and deeper into, uh, creating w- worlds where there's, uh, powerful pedophiles controlling things. Like these, uh, very sophisticated models of the world-

    6. MMMichael Malice1:09:11

       Yeah.

    7. LFLex Fridman1:09:11

       ... that, you know, in part might be true, but in large part, I would say are, are figments of imagination that become really useful constructs-

    8. MMMichael Malice1:09:22

       And self-reinforcing.

    9. LFLex Fridman1:09:23

       ... self-reinforcing, for then feeding, like, empowering the trolls to attack the, uh, powerful, the conventionally powerful.

    10. MMMichael Malice1:09:35

        I, I don't think that that's a function of conspiracy theories. Now, let's talk about conspiracy theories, 'cause one of my quotes is you take one red pill, not the whole bottle. This concept that everything-

    11. LFLex Fridman1:09:44

        Yeah.

    12. MMMichael Malice1:09:44

        ... in life is at the function of a small cadre of individuals would be, for many people, reassuring. Because as bad as it looks, you know they, whoever they are, it's usually the Jews, aren't gonna let it get that bad, that they will pull back. Or, the, the black pill is that they are intentionally trying to destroy everything, and there's nothing we can do and we're doomed. And there's an amazing book by Arthur Herman called The Idea of Decline in Western History. I- it's one of my top 10 books, where he goes through every 20 years how there's a different population that say, "It's the end of the world. Here's the proof." And very often, the proof is something that is kind of self-fulfilling, where there's no, it's not falsifiable. And we both have to think of ways to falsify our claims from earlier.

    13. LFLex Fridman1:10:29

        Yeah.

    14. MMMichael Malice1:10:29

        So, it is a big danger. It's a big danger online, because very quickly, if someone who you thought was good but now is bad on one aspect, well, they're controlled opposition, or they've been, uh, taken over, or they've been kind of, uh, uh, appropriated by the, the bad people, whoever those bad people would be. Um, I don't know that I have a good answer for this. I don't think it's as pervasive as people think.

    15. LFLex Fridman1:10:56

        The number of people who believe conspiracy theories?

    16. MMMichael Malice1:10:57

        Right. The, I mean... And also, conspiracy theory is a term used to dismiss ideas that have some currency. The Constitutional Convention was a conspiracy. Uh, the Founding Fathers got together secretly under a sworn secrecy in Philadelphia, said, "We're throwing out the Articles of Confederation and we're making a new government, right?" Yeah, yeah, yeah. And Luther Martin left, and he f- told everyone, "This is a conspiracy." And they were like, "Yeah, whatever, Luther Martin." So, and Jeffrey Epstein was a conspiracy. Harvey Weinstein was a conspiracy. Bill Cosby was a conspiracy. They all knew. They didn't care. Uh, the Communist infiltration in America. There's a great book by Eugene Lyons called The Red Decade. They all knew. They ex-... Every atrocity that, uh, was done under Stalinism was excused in the West. And if you didn't believe it, oh, you, you've got this crazy anti-Russia conspiracy. So, it's a term that is weaponized, uh, in a negative sense, but that does not at all imply that it does not have very negative real life consequences, because it's kind of a cult of one, right? Like, I'm at home on my computer. I buy into this ideology. Anyone who doesn't agree with me, uh, they are blind. They're oblivious. Mom and Dad, my friends, you don't get it. We were warned about people like you. And I think there's a very heavy correlation, and I'm not a psychiatrist of course, between that and certain types of mild mental illness, like, uh, you know, some kind of paranoid schizophrenia or things like that. Because af- after a certain point, if everything is a function of this conspiracy, it- it- it's, it- there's no randomness or beauty in life.

    17. LFLex Fridman1:12:22

        Yeah. I, I mean, I... I don't know if you can say anything interesting about a- in, in the way of advice of how to take a step into conspiracy theory world without completely going, like, diving deep. Because it seems like that's what happens. People can't look at Jeffrey Epstein...

    18. MMMichael Malice1:12:42

        I can tell you what the advice I have ?????? ??????

    19. LFLex Fridman1:12:44

        ... seriously and rigorously, uh, without going... 'Cause you can look at Jeffrey Epstein and say there's a deeper thing. You can always go deeper.

    20. MMMichael Malice1:12:53

        Right.

    21. LFLex Fridman1:12:53

        It's like Jeffrey Epstein was just a tool of...... uh, the lizard people, and the lizard people are the tool-

    22. MMMichael Malice1:12:59

        Well, they say Satanists.

    23. LFLex Fridman1:13:01

        Satan, s, uh, um.

    24. MMMichael Malice1:13:02

        In this case.

    25. LFLex Fridman1:13:03

        And somehow recently very popular is pedophiles somehow always involved. I'm not understanding any of the... I need, I, legitimately I say this both humorously and seriously, I need to look into it. The, a- and I guess the bigger question I'm asking, how does a serious human being, uh, somebody with a position at a respectable university, like, look at a conspiracy theory and look into it? When I look at somebody like Jeffrey Epstein who had a role at MIT.

    26. MMMichael Malice1:13:33

        Yeah. Oh, yeah.

    27. LFLex Fridman1:13:34

        And I, and I think, I'm not happy, personally. U- uh, I didn't, I wasn't there when Jeffrey Epstein was there. I'm not happy with the behavior of people now about Jeffrey Epstein, about the bureaucracy and the everybody's trying to keep quiet, hoping it blows over, without really looking into any... Like, looking in a deep, philosophical way of, like, how do we let this human being be among us?

    28. MMMichael Malice1:14:03

        Can I give you a better example?

    29. LFLex Fridman1:14:05

        Sure.

    30. MMMichael Malice1:14:05

        That, th- that is kinda conspiratorial? The Speaker of the House, the longest serving Republican Speaker of the House, Dennis Hastert, was a pedophile. He went to jail. The Democrats don't throw this in the Republicans' faces every five minutes, not even Democratic activists. I find that very, very odd, and not what I would predict. Now, I'm not saying there's some kind of conspiracy. But when it comes to things like sexual predation, which is something that I'm very, very concerned about. I have an uncle now. My sister just had her second kid recently, he's adorable. Um, it's something that I don't understand. It, it feels as if there's a lot of people who want this to all go away. Now, I think it's also because we don't have the vocabulary and framework to discuss it. Because when you start talking about things like children and these kind of issues, we want to believe it's all crap.

Episode duration: 3:20:31