Michael Malice and Yaron Brook: Ayn Rand, Human Nature, and Anarchy | Lex Fridman Podcast #178

1. 0:00 – 2:33

   Introduction

   1. LFLex Fridman0:00

      The following is a conversation with Michael Malice and Yaron Brook. Michael's third time on this podcast, and Yaron's second, but together for the first time. Michael is an anarchist, political thinker, host of a podcast called You're Welcome, and author of Dear Reader: The New Right, and two upcoming books, Anarchist Handbook and The White Pill. Yaron is an objectivist philosopher, chairman of the Ayn Rand Institute, host of the Yaron Brook Show, and co-author of The Free Market Revolution and Equal is Unfair. Quick mention of our sponsors: Ground News, Public Goods, Athletic Greens, Brave, and Four Sigmatic. Check them out in the description to support this podcast. As a side note, let me say that this conversation is a kind of experiment. Both Michael and Yaron are thoughtful and passionate, united in part by an interest in the history and philosophy of Ayn Rand. But they are also very different in style. Good conversation, like good food, is often made delicious by pairing of contrasting elements. For example, someone suggested I try a peanut butter, bacon, and banana sandwich, which apparently is very good. Among the three of us, I don't know who's the peanut butter, who's the bacon, and who's the banana. I'm guessing it's probably gonna be me. I'm the banana. But I hope the final result, the final dish if you will, is equally delicious. We talk through, I think, a lot of interesting ideas, sometimes disagreeing, sometimes even in rare cases, saying something humorous, including dark humor, especially in Michael's case. All three of us are sensitive to the suffering in the world today, and throughout human history. We think about it, we talk about it, and we deal with it in different ways. Be patient with us. Whether you agree, disagree, enjoy, or dislike the result, I hope if you listen, you're a wiser person on the other end of it. I know I was. Mostly I really enjoyed this conversation because no matter what Michael and Yaron believe, underneath it all, they're genuine, kind human beings that I'm lucky to be able to hang out with and learn from. This is the Lex Fridman Podcast, and here's my conversation with Michael Malice and Yaron Brook.

2. 2:33 – 7:50

   Desert island thought experiment

   1. LFLex Fridman2:33

      I've been a huge fan-

   2. MMMichael Malice2:35

      (laughs)

   3. LFLex Fridman2:35

      ... of the two of you for the longest time.

   4. MMMichael Malice2:36

      Are we just recording now? Is this starting?

   5. LFLex Fridman2:38

      (laughs)

   6. MMMichael Malice2:38

      Or are you just talking?

   7. LFLex Fridman2:39

      I'm not recording at all.

   8. YBYaron Brook2:41

      He- he's not gonna compliment us if it's not-

   9. MMMichael Malice2:42

      Yes he does-

   10. YBYaron Brook2:43

       ... part of the show.

   11. MMMichael Malice2:43

       ... all the time. He's very-

   12. LFLex Fridman2:44

       (laughs)

   13. MMMichael Malice2:44

       ... speaks very highly of me. You, I don't know.

   14. YBYaron Brook2:45

       (laughs)

   15. MMMichael Malice2:45

       Maybe he's being charitable. (laughs)

   16. YBYaron Brook2:47

       I'm not sure. He only does this to me on the show.

   17. MMMichael Malice2:48

       R- objectivists don't like charity so don't compliment him. He won't f-

   18. YBYaron Brook2:51

       (laughs)

   19. MMMichael Malice2:51

       ... he won't think it's sincere.

   20. YBYaron Brook2:52

       There you go.

   21. MMMichael Malice2:53

       (laughs)

   22. LFLex Fridman2:53

       So, it's- it's an incredible honor that- that both of you would show up here. Uh, if we- let me just ask this sort of profound philosophical question, how well do you think we would get along if we were stuck on a desert island together? What- what would life be like?

   23. YBYaron Brook3:07

       I thought the original question you had that you- you- you sent us this question-

   24. LFLex Fridman3:11

       Yeah.

   25. YBYaron Brook3:11

       ... was how long would it take for us to murder one another or something like... There was murder in the question, if I remember.

   26. MMMichael Malice3:15

       I- I-

   27. LFLex Fridman3:16

       (laughs)

   28. MMMichael Malice3:16

       Listen, he sent us homework, right, all these questions.

   29. YBYaron Brook3:19

       I- I ignored it.

   30. LFLex Fridman3:20

       (laughs)
3. 7:50 – 11:20

   Communism

   1. MMMichael Malice7:50

      a misogynist.

   2. YBYaron Brook7:51

      So, so I think we go wrong when people try to understand the world around them and come up with wrong ideas. And, and it, it's, it's k- it's natural that they would come up with wrong ideas 'cause it's hard to figure out what's right. So we start with trying to come up with mystical explanations for the, for the ex- for the existence of the things around us, uh, and that, I think, very quickly leads to some people being able to communicate with the mystical stuff out there and some people not being able to communicate and some people wanting to control other people and using those pseudo explanations as a way to control. So you always have a, Rand called it Attila and the witch doctor. You always have a witch doctor, the mystic-

   3. MMMichael Malice8:34

      (laughs)

   4. YBYaron Brook8:34

      ... the, the, the philosopher, the, the intellectual-

   5. MMMichael Malice8:36

      Yeah.

   6. YBYaron Brook8:36

      ... the philosopher, you know, king is a u- unity of th- And you have an Attila, you have somebody who wants control of the people, who's willing to use force to control other people, and when those two get together, that's when things go bad. And unfortunately, 95, 98% of human history is when those two are together. And, uh, and, and so the, the, the not having them together, having the right ideas, and the right ideas are ones that are not exclusive to those guys and where we don't allow Attila to have that kind of physical power over us, that's an exception and that's rare and that's, that's what needs to be defended.

   7. MMMichael Malice9:14

      Yeah. Stalin's not personally killing people. Hitler's not personally killing people. Charles Manson's not personally killing people. They need their goons.

   8. YBYaron Brook9:20

      They need their goons, but they also, they don't, they don't have original ideas. Nothing Stalin says is original to him, right? He needs a Marx, even Lenin-

   9. MMMichael Malice9:30

      Sure.

   10. YBYaron Brook9:30

       ... right? He, they all need a Marx, right? They all n- And Marx needs a particular line of thinkers that come before him that, uh, that set him up for these kind of ideas. So, so Ha- Stalin both needs his goons, even though he's somewhat of a goon, particularly Stalin.

   11. MMMichael Malice9:45

       Yeah, he was a bank robber, yeah.

   12. YBYaron Brook9:46

       Yeah. And then, so take Lenin, Lenin I think is a better example, 'cause Lenin's more intellectual, if you will. But Lenin needs his goons, he needs his Stalins, but Lenin also needs his Marx. And we, we don't wanna let Marx off the hook because Marx knows, I think, implicitly that his ideas have to le- lead to Lenin and Stalin.

   13. MMMichael Malice10:05

       Uh-

   14. YBYaron Brook10:05

       His ideas are not neutral.

   15. MMMichael Malice10:06

       I don't think it's implicit at all. I think Marx very much gl-

   16. YBYaron Brook10:09

       Yes. (laughs)

   17. MMMichael Malice10:10

       ... glorified revolution-

   18. YBYaron Brook10:11

       You're right.

   19. MMMichael Malice10:11

       ... blood and terror... This is not, uh, implicit,

   20. YBYaron Brook10:14

       No, absolutely. ... in his writings. I mean, there are letters between him and Engels where they talk about which peoples will be, have to be in- eliminated 'cause they don't have that proletarian-

   21. MMMichael Malice10:22

       Yeah, yeah.

   22. YBYaron Brook10:23

       ... thing, right? So, so I think the, i- there's, it's certain, certain peoples, uh, in Southern Europe who are not appropriate for, for, for, for the utopia to come and will have to be gone.

   23. MMMichael Malice10:32

       And Marx also had this concept, which we still see today in m- in, in garbled ways of polylogism, which is if you're a capitalist and I'm bourgeois or I'm a worker, you just, your logic is different than mine.

   24. YBYaron Brook10:44

       Mm-hmm.

   25. MMMichael Malice10:45

       It's literally gonna be impossible for us to communicate-

   26. YBYaron Brook10:47

       Mm-hmm.

   27. MMMichael Malice10:47

       ... and at a certain point you're gonna have to be liquidated and they pretend that doesn't mean murdered, but it means murdered.

   28. YBYaron Brook10:52

       Yeah.

   29. MMMichael Malice10:52

       And very quickly everyone becomes a capitalist or bourgeois and then, then you have, you know, the, the Holodomor and things like this.

   30. YBYaron Brook10:57

       No, he knows exactly where it's gonna lead. And, and this is why, you know, people say, "Oh, Marx is not evil. He just wrote books." No. (laughs) It's the people who write books who are responsible for the way people, uh, history evolves, and they know, they know, the bad guys certainly know, uh, the consequence of their ideas and, uh, and they need to bear the moral responsibility for what, what happens when their ideas are

4. 11:20 – 12:29

   Immanuel Kant

   1. YBYaron Brook11:20

      implemented.

   2. MMMichael Malice11:20

      Here's... Wait, can I ask a question?

   3. YBYaron Brook11:22

      Yeah.

   4. MMMichael Malice11:22

      'Cause I, I think I know more about Rand than Yaron does, so let's see-

   5. YBYaron Brook11:25

      Oh.

   6. MMMichael Malice11:25

      Okay.

   7. YBYaron Brook11:26

      The gauntlet's been thrown down. He like, he likes saying things-

   8. MMMichael Malice11:28

      Who, who did Ayn Rand say is the most evil man who ever lived?

   9. YBYaron Brook11:30

      Immanuel Kant.

   10. MMMichael Malice11:31

       That's right. Correct. Okay.

   11. YBYaron Brook11:32

       No, that I know.

   12. MMMichael Malice11:33

       Okay.

   13. YBYaron Brook11:33

       I mean, uh, so it's a, it's a big deal that Immanuel Kant is, and it, and most people don't understand why, because if you read Kant, there's certain passages in Kant that sound pretty liberal, they sound pretty... He's, he's for the indiv- it sounds like he's for the individual, he sounds like he's for the-

   14. MMMichael Malice11:47

       Confucian.

   15. YBYaron Brook11:47

       ... American Revolution-

   16. MMMichael Malice11:48

       Yep, yep.

   17. YBYaron Brook11:49

       ... things like that. But when you, when you actually read his philosophy and what he's trying to defend and what he's trying to undermine-

   18. MMMichael Malice11:54

       Yeah.

   19. YBYaron Brook11:55

       ... he's trying to undermine the foundations that make the revolution possible, that make freedom and individualism possible. He's trying to destroy the enlightenment. And the enlightenment is, uh, those ideas that make freedom, individualism, uh, feasible. He's trying to undermine reason. And without reason, w- we're nothing. We're, we're, we're, we're, we're not... We can't survive as a species. So, and that's why she-... uh, thought he was the most evil person because, uh, his ideas undermine the very foundations of what it requires to be a human being. Reason and indivi- individualism. Those are the things he's trying to eviscerate.

5. 12:29 – 23:00

   Donald Hoffman

   1. YBYaron Brook12:29

      I know you've, you've talked about Hoffman before. So, Hoffman is a modern day attempt to-

   2. MMMichael Malice12:37

      Who's Hoffman?

   3. YBYaron Brook12:37

      D- uh, D-

   4. (laughs)

   5. Donald Hoffman.

   6. Donald Hoffman.

   7. Donald Hoffman is a U- University y- of, of California, Irvine-

   8. Yeah.

   9. MMMichael Malice12:44

      Okay.

   10. YBYaron Brook12:44

       ... uh, neurologist? Uh, neuroscientist? Something like that. So, I met him once and, uh, we were at, it w- it- it- these, one of these conferences where you do a quick intro. You sit and you do a quick in- his, his introduction was, "I've just written a book that proves that evolution has conditioned us not to see reality."

   11. MMMichael Malice13:02

       Okay, that is very Kantian.

   12. YBYaron Brook13:04

       Yeah. And he is basically just presenting pseudoscience to defend Kant's position about, uh, epistemology and about, and about metaphysics, and there's nothing, there's nothing original there. And he puts up a bunch of equations e- and, and he says, "I ran a simulation and it proves I'm right." (laughs)

   13. So, uh, Yaron is a little bit frustrated, uh, over Donald Hoffman's work. Let me, uh, let me-

   14. Not frustrated. I just think it's completely wrong and it is-

   15. MMMichael Malice13:32

       Anti-life.

   16. YBYaron Brook13:32

       ... and it's an- it's anti-life, anti-mind, anti-evolution.

   17. Mm-hmm.

   18. I think he's an anti-evolutionist at the end. And I think it, you know, anytime you say... Look, here's the important point. Anytime you say reality doesn't exist-

   19. MMMichael Malice13:44

       Or that you can't perceive it.

   20. YBYaron Brook13:45

       ... well, who are you?

   21. MMMichael Malice13:46

       Yeah, yeah.

   22. YBYaron Brook13:47

       What do you mean by rea- what do any of your words mean? What does anything you say even mean if it doesn't refer to something that's actually-

   23. Well-

   24. ... out there in reality?

   25. ... let me try to defend this point of view because in, in, uh, in a certain kind of sense, I hear it as a being humble in the face of the uncertainty that's around us. Sort of, uh, you know, when you speak with the confidence of Ayn Rand and, and yourself that reason can be like this weapon that cuts through all the bullshit of the world and makes us, like, have a ethical, moral life and all those kinds of things, you kind of assume that, uh, reason is a superpower that has no limits.

   26. MMMichael Malice14:25

       Wait, okay, hold on, hold on.

   27. YBYaron Brook14:26

       Y- y- hold on a second. Okay, yeah, but, but, but, look at-

   28. MMMichael Malice14:28

       I got this one.

   29. YBYaron Brook14:30

       (laughs)

   30. See, this is already leading to, uh, a murder by words. (laughs)
6. 23:00 – 31:42

   DMT elves

   1. MMMichael Malice23:00

      there.

   2. YBYaron Brook23:00

      So what about all the things that mess with our perceptions? For example, we've talked about psychedelics before.

   3. MMMichael Malice23:05

      Sure.

   4. YBYaron Brook23:05

      Talked about in dreams where you've been detached from b- this, uh... I mean, there's certain things that happen to your brain to where you're not able to perceive in the right way.

   5. S- so you're not perceiving reality, that's right. So your brain is creating a different reality, it's not real. That's-

   6. How do you know it's not real? How do you know the elves we meet in the, in the...

   7. MMMichael Malice23:21

      That would be real.

   8. YBYaron Brook23:21

      Because I need... Because, partially because I need to take a drug in order-

   9. MMMichael Malice23:24

      I'm serious.

   10. YBYaron Brook23:24

       Because I need to take a drug-

   11. MMMichael Malice23:25

       (laughs)

   12. YBYaron Brook23:25

       ... in order to do it, because I'm asleep when I'm dreaming. It's not reality.

   13. Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa.

   14. It's, that is, that is clearly a creation of our mind, it's not a crea-

   15. MMMichael Malice23:34

       Hold on. Let's get-

   16. YBYaron Brook23:34

       The drug is real.

   17. MMMichael Malice23:35

       ... let's get to psychedelics.

   18. YBYaron Brook23:35

       The drug is real.

   19. MMMichael Malice23:36

       If you are... I, I, I, I'm not... I, I, I think you're gonna be thinking I'm joking a lot more than I am this episode.

   20. YBYaron Brook23:42

       Okay. (laughs)

   21. MMMichael Malice23:42

       I'm gonna be the humorist objective-ist, uh, he could be the jest, the court jester.

   22. YBYaron Brook23:46

       (laughs)

   23. MMMichael Malice23:47

       Um, in terms of psychedelic, when people are perceiving these elves, these machine elves, these other entities, uh, whether they are, they could either be real or not, I don't know, but the point is that doesn't go to his broader point, because if these beings exist and the only way to perceive them is to take a drug, they still exist. This is just... If, for example, if I'm i- in, in, uh, out walking outside in the woods at night, right? And there's a deer and I can't see it, but if I put on night vision goggles, I can see it, that deer was there the entire time. It's not that the night vision goggles caused the deer to appear-

   24. YBYaron Brook24:22

       Yeah, but, b-b, you can, you can recreate it not only using night vision goggles, but there, you, you can, you can then use sonar, you can use other mechanisms by which to prove that the deer is there.... uh, the thing with psychedelics is that, now, I don't know be- because I- I'm, maybe I'm the least experienced with psychedelics here probably. Uh, my guess is every time you take a psychedelic, you have exactly the same experience of the deer.

   25. MMMichael Malice24:42

       No.

   26. YBYaron Brook24:42

       No. Um, second, uh, are there other mechanisms, other scientific mechanisms by which I can find a deer out there, uh, other than the psychedelics? No.

   27. MMMichael Malice24:50

       We don't know yet.

   28. YBYaron Brook24:51

       So-

   29. MMMichael Malice24:51

       Well, we don't know yet.

   30. YBYaron Brook24:53

       Well, but, but the, you know, this is, this is, uh, Occam's razor, right? The, the simplest explanation here is the most likely, and that is that you're, you've, you've taken something that's messing with the chemicals in the brain, something is being, that your brain can project. We dream. Nobody's arguing that the dream is real and reality's not, or if they are, I think they're nuts. The dream is a dream. Your, your, your, your brain is creating an image of telling you a story. Psychedelics are simulating the same thing, that's probably what's going on until there's evidence to the contrary.
7. 31:42 – 48:35

   Humility

   1. YBYaron Brook31:42

      Of course. And, and it's not even, it's not even, uh, eh, just the sciences and the math. Think about the philosophy. Uh, I mean, how much is there to learn from reading Aristotle or Plato, uh, or Socrates, when you disagree with them? I mean, how many giants have there been in all of human history that have had the minds of a Socrates, a Plato and an Aristotle? Uh, 1,000 years, will they look back at Plato and Aristotle and admire them? Absolutely. Will they find certain things that are wrong? Yes. But certain things that Aristotle discovered were absolutely right and will always be right. Certain things that Ayn Rand discovered will always be right. I think a lot of what she came up with. Will some things b- be discovered to be wrong? Yeah. (laughs) Well, you know, I, that wouldn't shock me. But, uh, eh, the, the genius and the, and the, and the, the truth of, of that we know today is amazing. It's stunning. To be pessimistic about us because in the future we'll know more...

   2. Not pessimistic, but more humble, that, that, that-

   3. Well, there's no reason to be humble.

   4. (laughs)

   5. I mean, I, I, I, I really think humility is a vice, not a virtue. What's there to be humble about? Look, look at life.

   6. Uh, uh-

   7. This is amazing. We should be-

   8. MMMichael Malice32:50

      No, no, I, but, but the word humble has a different meaning.

   9. YBYaron Brook32:52

      No, I, I know, I know.

   10. MMMichael Malice32:53

       Okay, okay, you can go on. Yeah, yeah, okay, sorry, okay.

   11. YBYaron Brook32:55

       I was going to get there. I was going to get there. I mean, humility in a sense of...

   12. (laughs)

   13. Uh, eh, you know, humility in a sense of, of, um, not appreciating the genius and the ability and the, and the success and all the stuff that we as individuals, I think, in our lives, but, but as a, as a culture, as, as a, as a movement, if you think about movement in terms of those of us who respect reason, have achieved, in spite of the odds, we should be proud of that. And pride is the virtue. Humility in the sense of, yeah, I know there's more to know. I know there's a lot more to know, and in the future we'll know more, sure. But I don't think that's the way... See, I take humility as, as the way that Christians use it, which is the other way. And I think it's a real vice. It's, it's, "Don't think of yourself too much. Just 'cause you can think, you know, that's no big deal." Or, "Just 'cause you can create this, that..." It is a big deal. Eh, y- your achievements are a big deal, and you should take credit for them. Um, so, uh, i- i- be careful with the word humility, because, because the real meaning is the Christian meaning, which is a very, very bad meaning.

   14. Well...

   15. MMMichael Malice33:55

       Actually, hold on. Let me be a little pedantic.

   16. YBYaron Brook33:56

       Yeah.

   17. MMMichael Malice33:56

       'Cause there's no such thing as real meaning, right? So there's different meanings. Okay? Hold on, 'cause this is semantics. But here's another real meaning that you're not dis- gonna disagree with.

   18. YBYaron Brook34:03

       Sure.

   19. MMMichael Malice34:04

       Which is, the smartest person on earth is ignorant of 99.9% of knowledge, right?

   20. YBYaron Brook34:09

       Yes.

   21. MMMichael Malice34:09

       So if I meet someone who is less intelligent than me, and less informed than me, it is still certain that this person has things to teach me. If I go to a mechanic, and maybe this guy's dumb as rocks.

   22. YBYaron Brook34:22

       Mm-hmm.

   23. MMMichael Malice34:22

       I don't know anything about cars. What he tells me about that car is go-... I could take it to the bank. He's gonna be in a position to inform me. So, one of the reasons humility is extremely important is very often you have people, and you see this very much in academia-

   24. YBYaron Brook34:36

       (laughs)

   25. MMMichael Malice34:36

       ... who think, uh, yeah, you know exactly where I'm going, Yaron.

   26. YBYaron Brook34:39

       Okay.

   27. MMMichael Malice34:39

       Who think they're know-it-alls, and they think, "Oh, I have this degree. You're a layman. You've never been formally educated. Therefore, not only are you dumb and uneducated, and you're wrong." And it's like, this person might behav-... Uh, one, a great example of this, and this is an example Yaron might not like, is a lot of times you have these native populations, and they'll have a better understanding of the animals around them, the plants, the fruits, whatever. And you'd have these scientists and be like, "Oh, they're talking about this monster in the woods, yeah, whatever, this giant, this giant ape." But it was real. It was the gorilla, but, you know, you dismiss them 'cause, "Oh, these are stupid, ignorant, whatever people." That's kinda changed to some extent. But that is an aspect of humility that I think behooves especially highly intelligent people, because there is such a presumption to be dismissive of people who you regard as less than, but they're often right.

   28. YBYaron Brook35:27

       So I agree, I agree with all of the concrete examples. I just think we should come up with a better word than humility. And I don't have one, 'cause I'm not a, I'm not a wordsmith. I'm not, this is not my strength. Uh, but humility, humility is a, is a word from the Christian re- uh, ethics. And it means something very specific in the field of ethics, and it means the opposite of, of what I think virtue requires. Right?

   29. MMMichael Malice35:53

       Yeah.

   30. YBYaron Brook35:53

       Uh, it's, it's demeaning. It's to put you down. It's to, it's to, it's to, it's to resist pride. And I think pride is a very important thing.
8. 48:35 – 58:13

   Jordan Peterson and religion

   1. YBYaron Brook48:35

   2. MMMichael Malice48:35

      Yeah.

   3. YBYaron Brook48:35

      Let's go back to the island.

   4. MMMichael Malice48:36

      Speaking of which.

   5. YBYaron Brook48:38

      We're on an island again? (laughs)

   6. We're back to the island.

   7. MMMichael Malice48:40

      Manhattan.

   8. YBYaron Brook48:41

      And, uh, let's, let's go to the island. Let's, let's, uh-

   9. I live on an island, so.

   10. Let's, everything is an island-... in some context, like Earth is an island, this universe is an island in a multiverse. Um, it's just-

   11. There are no multiverses. There's only one universe.

   12. All right, so (laughs) ...

   13. MMMichael Malice48:59

       (laughs)

   14. YBYaron Brook48:59

       So let's invite Jordan Peterson to this island.

   15. MMMichael Malice49:01

       You wish.

   16. YBYaron Brook49:02

       (laughs)

   17. MMMichael Malice49:02

       Hold on.

   18. YBYaron Brook49:03

       Submit.

   19. MMMichael Malice49:03

       Hold on a sec. Hey, girl.

   20. YBYaron Brook49:06

       (laughs)

   21. (laughs)

   22. MMMichael Malice49:06

       Whatcha doing? Lex.

   23. YBYaron Brook49:09

       (laughs)

   24. MMMichael Malice49:09

       Lex Fridman, look him up.

   25. YBYaron Brook49:11

       Lex who?

   26. MMMichael Malice49:12

       (laughs) Yeah, exactly.

   27. YBYaron Brook49:13

       I don't know.

   28. Lex who? No, I kn-

   29. Lex has as big of a following almost as Jordan does.

   30. No. I- I- I-
9. 58:13 – 1:12:14

   Ben Shapiro: facts don't care about your feelings

   1. LFLex Fridman58:13

      there's a really interesting idea of, uh, bringing your emotion in line with your thinking, with your reasoning.

   2. YBYaron Brook58:18

      Mm-hmm.

   3. LFLex Fridman58:19

      So, Ben Shapiro famously has this saying... How you like that transition-

   4. YBYaron Brook58:23

      (laughs)

   5. LFLex Fridman58:23

      ... Michael? You gave me props. I know you do.

   6. MMMichael Malice58:25

      That's not, uh, he's not Ben, it's Ben Shapiro. (laughs)

   7. YBYaron Brook58:28

      Yeah.

   8. MMMichael Malice58:29

      (laughs) Someone is not taking your calls. (laughs)

   9. YBYaron Brook58:31

      Ben, Benny.

   10. MMMichael Malice58:32

       I guess it's the daily don't take the caller.

   11. YBYaron Brook58:34

       (laughs)

   12. LFLex Fridman58:35

       Ba- back to the island with the murder-

   13. MMMichael Malice58:37

       (laughs)

   14. LFLex Fridman58:37

       ... I think we know-

   15. MMMichael Malice58:38

       Murder Island. (laughs)

   16. LFLex Fridman58:39

       ... who would know who would be committing the murder.

   17. MMMichael Malice58:42

       (laughs)

   18. LFLex Fridman58:42

       Uh...

   19. YBYaron Brook58:42

       I have the suit for it. Uh, so he has this saying of, uh, uh, "Facts don't care about your feelings."

   20. LFLex Fridman58:48

       Mm-hmm.

   21. YBYaron Brook58:48

       And that always, um... Uh, I, I've always felt, um, badly about that statement somehow, like it was incomplete. Uh, so it's interesting to, uh, that you mention bringing your emotions in line with your thinking. Like, what do you think about that statement? Is it-

   22. MMMichael Malice59:03

       Wai- I got this one. What-

   23. LFLex Fridman59:05

       (laughs)

   24. MMMichael Malice59:05

       ... what Ben is doing-

   25. LFLex Fridman59:06

       Ben.

   26. MMMichael Malice59:07

       ... Ben, what he's doing-

   27. LFLex Fridman59:08

       (laughs)

   28. MMMichael Malice59:08

       ... in a, uh, a loose way, is attacking Kantianism.

   29. LFLex Fridman59:12

       Oh.

   30. MMMichael Malice59:13

       'Cause Kant, there's this... It's, it's almost impossible for Westerners who aren't schooled in this to understand the idea of philosophical idealism 'cause it sounds so crazy-

Episode duration: 4:25:18