Lex Fridman PodcastMichael Malice: New Year's Special | Lex Fridman Podcast #253
EVERY SPOKEN WORD
150 min read · 30,077 words- 0:00 – 0:23
Introduction
- LFLex Fridman
Уважаемые дамы и господа, the following is a conversation with Michael Malice, his fifth time on this, the Lex Fridman podcast. To support it, please check out our sponsors in the description, and now here's my New Year's Eve 2021 conversation with the one and only, Mr. Michael Malice.
- 0:23 – 10:50
Truth, goodness, and beauty
- LFLex Fridman
Привет, товарищ.
- MMMichael Malice
С Новым годом!
- LFLex Fridman
С Новым годом! Достоевский wrote in The Idiot, my favorite of his books, through, uh, the main character, Prince Myshkin, that beauty will save the world. Красота спасет мир. These words, seemingly naïve and ultimately, at least to me, profound. What do they mean to you? Beauty will save the world.
- MMMichael Malice
Naïve? Really? I don't think they seem naïve at all.
- LFLex Fridman
Well, uh, Solzhenitsyn, actually for his 1970 Nobel Prize, uh, speech, talked about this line a lot. And he thought for most of his life that it was a silly line, it was just words thrown out there. Because with all the suffering that's in the world, what has beauty actually ever done?
- MMMichael Malice
Oh my God, I hate this so much.
- LFLex Fridman
(laughs) .
- MMMichael Malice
I- I- I-
- LFLex Fridman
Talking trash about Solzhenitsyn?
- MMMichael Malice
Yeah, I am.
- LFLex Fridman
Okay.
- MMMichael Malice
Um, and this is- perfectly sets up this theme, you know, why I said let's do this episode, start the new year on a positive note, give people hope, give people joy. Uh, y- you and I both have friends who are models, right? And it's a silly profession to some extent, of course, but-
- LFLex Fridman
You are actually a model.
- MMMichael Malice
I a-
- LFLex Fridman
And you are my friend (laughs) .
- MMMichael Malice
I am. That's right, that's true. I am an under model. I was trying to be subtle, but for those people who actually, you know, deserve to be models, um, when you look at someone who is a model and in some of their photos, and these- they- these people look perfect. Now in real life they're not perfect, they have flaws, they'll be the first to admit it, so on and so forth, but when you look at beauty, it is almost impossible to maintain a sense of cynicism and hopelessness. Because if there's even one moment when some, uh, element of perfection has been a- actualized, if there's one moment where, uh, beauty has been realized and captured, you can't say, "Well, it's never gonna happen again." So I think beauty, i- it means hope. I think... I hate that cynical idea of like, um... I- I get, I- I appreciate Solzhenitsyn's broader point in that a lot of times people, there's something called the deepity, where people throw words together to sound profound, and if you s- take it apart, like this is just complete gibberish. I don't think this is an example of that. I think b- beauty inspires and it v- more importantly, it proves to you this is something that can actually happen on this earth. Plato, right, the platonic theory of forms, like this world isn't perfect, but these perfect forms exist in another dimension and that's where our concepts come from. You know, he's a- he was an early, uh, person trying to figure out where our concepts come from, uh, and epistemology and so on and so forth. Um, but that is something that is real and here. So I completely disagree with, uh, his analysis of that, and I don't know if it'll save the world, but it's certainly a prerequisite. And what's the point of fighting for your values if you don't wanna make the world a more beautiful place?
- LFLex Fridman
Well, it's also how you define beauty, 'cause beauty could be just aesthetic beauty, it could be art. Of course, art could be, could, uh, encompass a lot, a lot more than just literature and paintings. It can encompass the full life, the full dance of life. But then beauty could be something just, uh, deeper, like whatever that awe you feel when you pause and hear the music, just hear and, like look up at the stars. Like for some reason when I see rockets go up, for me it's like science. What is that? The awe that we're able to accomplish that as humans.
- MMMichael Malice
You know, that's funny 'cause, you know, there's lots of different schools of thought, like th- these people versus these people, and- and, you know, maybe vegans versus, um, steakhouse people. I think in terms of the sciences, and I guess you and I would be on opposite sides here.
- LFLex Fridman
Mm-hmm.
- MMMichael Malice
You have the astronomy people versus the zoology people.
- LFLex Fridman
(laughs) .
- MMMichael Malice
Like the qu- the big question is would you rather spend 10 minutes on the moon or would you rather spend 10 minutes in the deep sea? And for me, it's clearly the deep sea. Um, the zoology that's down there, uh, there's something I would encourage people to look up, uh, called deepstaria, which is a jellyfish and the g- the scientists is- and what's amazing when you watch these deep sea dives on YouTube is that the scientists are, they're- they're nature dorks like everybody else. They- they- they went into this field, and there's none of this maybe Solzhenitsyn style cynicism of when they see an amazing animal in its natural environment, you know, exhibiting these crazy behaviors. They lose it. They're on the mics like, "Oh my God!" And like it's so exciting to watch. So, uh, I- I'm not a rocket person, but I'm definitely a zoology person.
- LFLex Fridman
So animals and plants and the sea.
- MMMichael Malice
The- and also, it's- it's so mathematical. There's so much, so many forms. There's- there's this, um, there's this plant called Ariospermum titanopsoides. I don't know how to pronounce it 'cause they're always in Latin, you never hear them pronounced.
- LFLex Fridman
You said sperm.
- MMMichael Malice
(laughs) . Ariospermum. Yeah, 'cause it's woolly seed is the- is the genus. Um, the leaf, it's just always puts out one leaf.
- LFLex Fridman
Mm-hmm.
- MMMichael Malice
But the leaf is covered in little magnifying glasses, uh, lenses, to make it maximize the sunlight. So it looks like this little crystal seashell. It's tiny, it's like two centimeters, but it's just this amazing thing that h- that grows out of the sands in South Africa.
- LFLex Fridman
Just to defend Solzhenitsyn for a second. So if I may read a couple of his lines from the speech.
- MMMichael Malice
Sure.
- 10:50 – 17:41
Save one life
- MMMichael Malice
out.
- LFLex Fridman
(inhales) As opposed to the hard drugs.
- MMMichael Malice
Yeah.
- LFLex Fridman
If, uh... You mentioned this quote on one of your, uh, livestreams, I think. "If you save one life, you save the world."
- MMMichael Malice
Yeah.
- LFLex Fridman
That's such a cool line. I think... I remember reading about Paul Farmer, I think his name is. He's a doctor that really... I mean, um, doctors in general, they kind of don't care about, like, what they're doing as a broad policy across, uh, hundreds of thousands of millions of people. They just care about the human in front of them, which is so interesting. They don't care it's gonna cost... Like in his case, to save one child, it will cost him hundreds of thousands of dollars. They don't care about that. They can't. They know very well that what... their actions can not be scaled, but they can't help but help the- the child in front of them. And it's so interesting. That's such an interesting way to live. And that- that's the way I kind of think when I try to do something positive, is, "Will this help one person?" (laughs) . And I just kind of imagine a- a specific person, depending on the thing that that would help with, like when I'm trying to create something, whether it's a piece of hardware, or- or a video, or anything like that, or educational material, a lecture, that kind of stuff.I don't know. What, what do you think about this quote? Like, what... Is- is it profound or just- just poetic?
- MMMichael Malice
I think it's more profound than it sounds at first. Uh, the example I think of is Michele Bachmann. She was a former congresswoman from Minnesota. She clearly had crazy eyes, something weird is going on with her husband. But she adopted like, like 20 kids. Terry Schapert's another friend of mine. He's like a, either Navy SEAL or- or Marines. Uh, whatever it is, Terry, I apologize, I'm not trying to be funny. And he adopts, like, elder dogs. So j- going back to Bachmann, it's like, yeah, you can say she's crazy. You can make fun of her politics all you want and all that stuff's legitimate. But if you save a kid, give them a home, and you save them from the foster system, um, and you put a roof over their heads and make them feel loved and appreciated, it's really hard for me to sit here and call you, like, a totally bad person. I think that kinda thing is... Nick Searcy's another one. He adopted a kid, uh, and I- I said, "You're... I think you're a hero." Like, if you... There's so ma- y- you know, i- i- one of the things that's very hard for me in writing, as you know, I talk about this endlessly, this book, The White Pill. But writing about when people do hurtful things to children, it really is hard to watch. And it's hard to... 'Cause when you're an author you have to kind of empathize with the character. You have to... Where's this character coming from? Explain their point of view. And that's the one that's the hardest for me to wrap my head around. Like...
- LFLex Fridman
Cruelty to children?
- MMMichael Malice
Yeah. Or- or- or... y- and- and yeah, sadism to children. It's just like, this is a tota... This is something even animals know not to do, do you know what I mean?
- LFLex Fridman
Yeah.
- MMMichael Malice
Like dogs around... When you see them a- around kids, they're very protective. Like, if the kid pokes their eyes out, the dog doesn't do anything. So it's like, if you can't even get to that level, uh, what kind of person are you? So I think that quote, um, i- is a profound one and it's an important one. Uh, it also means we're not all called upon to be Superman, right? You only have a very finite ability to move the needle. But at the same time, if you have actually, you know, saved a life, you can go to meet your maker. You- you did your part. You know, you left the world a little bit better than you found it, and that's all you could ask of anybody.
- LFLex Fridman
Also, I think from a policy perspective, it seems we just do better when we focus on doing a small thing, helping a, helping one person. 'Cause it- it feels like when you start talking about communism and all those kinds of things, when you start to believe you could do good by a lot of people-
- MMMichael Malice
Oh, yeah.
- LFLex Fridman
... that's where your mind somehow stops being able to do good by a lot of people. That's when you start to think about utopias and somehow utopias goes to, um, feeds power into the brain to where it deludes you completely and then you start, "It's okay to crack a few eggs to make an omelet," kind of reasoning and y- you run into trouble. It seems like it's much better even when you have the power and the money and so on to achieve scale to focus on one and then... and th-
- MMMichael Malice
Or locally, yeah.
- LFLex Fridman
Locally, yeah. Yeah.
- MMMichael Malice
Because then it's also you have the feedback.
- LFLex Fridman
Exactly.
- MMMichael Malice
Right? So if you have some kind of program, you know, in Austin or in Brooklyn or something like that and you're, you can, you could watch, "Oh, this is working. This isn't working," then you could port it out to other places. But top-down helping is, you know, at the very least, it's gonna be inefficient. And also I think it's a lot more useful when you're helping people when it's a one-on-one r- relationship because then it's less, I don't know about embarrassing, but certainly less something to receive help. And you also feel s- if... It's one thing if you get a check from the government, you know, food stamps. It's another thing if someone's like, "Hey, I'm gonna buy you groceries until you get back on your feet." You have this kinda motivation, I think for most people, to be like, "You know what? This person believed in me. I'm gonna make it worth their while that they believed in me."
- LFLex Fridman
Yeah.
- MMMichael Malice
'Cause I didn't believe in me.
- LFLex Fridman
Yeah. Had I... Uh, when I was giving lectures at MIT there was one, um, I was scared shitless and, uh... I mean, everybody... You know how students are and all that kinda stuff. They're kinda bored.
- MMMichael Malice
Yeah.
- LFLex Fridman
And they don't, they don't understand that you're human too. They're... yeah. (laughs)
- MMMichael Malice
(laughs)
- LFLex Fridman
Or this is... Could be just me. Or they...
- MMMichael Malice
(laughs) They don't understand you're trying to pass as human. (laughs)
- LFLex Fridman
I know. Uh, but there was one, one, uh, gentleman in the audience and he went to all the lectures. Uh, older gentleman. He was a faculty at MIT and he just without... very kinda nonchalant, just said, uh... After the lectures he would kinda nod at me and say, "You did great." And, uh, before... Like one time he said in a non-creepy way... I know this is gonna come off as creepy. He said, uh, "You look great today." Like, he said that in a, um... I don't... In the way... So he's like 60, 70, whatever. Like, he... in this k- I don't know. It- it's in a wise, sage way.
- MMMichael Malice
Oh, okay.
- LFLex Fridman
'Cause I was wearing a suit and tie. Like, I look like... You know when you dress up like a young kid? You dress 'em up for something.
- 17:41 – 36:36
Jeffrey Epstein
- LFLex Fridman
about this. What do you make... What lessons do you draw about human civilization from Jeffrey Epstein? From just laying...
- MMMichael Malice
Oh.
- LFLex Fridman
Everybody thinks about different things when... You- you talk to Eric Weinstein, he thinks about intelligence and, like, who... Uh, like, uh, Jeffrey Epstein is a front for something else. That's what he- he thinks about. I think about the weakness of grown men in the face of, uh, charismatic evil, which is like for me directly is MIT. I didn't know... I actually was... I guess I was at MIT when Jeff Epstein was just at the very end. He must have been there. Um...I didn't know any of this, but it- it really bothers me that nobody was able to see through this man, because he's obviously, what is also obvious to me, is that he was very charismatic. Like, (laughs) I mean, I- I- I try to think about human nature from this perspective, is, um, directly, like we said, help one life. Would I know a Jeffrey Epstein if he was in my life? Would I- would I know evil when I saw evil?
- MMMichael Malice
Even if it's sitting across from you. (laughs)
- LFLex Fridman
Even- even, I mean, you- (laughs) so-
- MMMichael Malice
(laughs)
- LFLex Fridman
(laughs) ... exactly, the evil laugh.
- MMMichael Malice
(laughs)
- LFLex Fridman
Thank you. The- the thing ... (laughs)
- MMMichael Malice
(laughs)
- LFLex Fridman
Well, there-
- MMMichael Malice
It's the Necronomicon.
- LFLex Fridman
Well, the thing I ... and- and- and I'm sure we'll talk about it, maybe not, doesn't really matter, we- we see things, you and I, Michael, uh, very differently about a lot of things, politically and so on. The reason I- I like you a lot, the reason I like, uh, the people I do in my life is there's a- there's a warmth, there's a kindness, there's a humanity underneath it all. I don't really care what you believe. I don't care, like, I don't care what your Twitter says, you- you know, it's easy to mistake your Twitter to indicate that there's not a deeply human love for humanity in there. And that's what ... I'm detecting that. I think I would be able to detect that Jeffrey Epstein-
- MMMichael Malice
When you say detect, I'm just imagining the T-1000 scans. (laughs)
- LFLex Fridman
Zzz.
- MMMichael Malice
Yeah. (laughs)
- LFLex Fridman
Detected. Yes. Uh, I imagine, I hope I would be able to not- uh, detect that Ep- Epstein, uh, lacks that completely, even if he's charismatic in the- in the humor he has, even if he is, uh, charismatic in the expression of curiosity for science, which he did.
- MMMichael Malice
Yeah.
- LFLex Fridman
He was curious about, like, uh, not just like b- boring, uh, minutia of science. He was interested about the big questions in science, which I could see that become exciting to scientists. Like, "Oh, wow, here's a person who's thinking big." That's always exciting when somebody goes into a room and thinks about like, "How do we solve intelligence? How do we travel faster than the speed of light?" That's exciting to people, especially people with money 'cause it's like, "All right, so we might be able to actually do big things here."
- MMMichael Malice
Yeah.
- LFLex Fridman
Uh, but you could see through the bullshit, the- the dead- the deadness in the eyes. I don't know. Uh, so I think about that because I- I feel like I have the responsibility for me as an individual to detect evil.
- MMMichael Malice
So I ... do you know who Michael Alig is?
- LFLex Fridman
No.
- MMMichael Malice
Okay, this is gonna be a whole long ... this is gonna be on Lex clips.
- LFLex Fridman
Uh-oh.
- MMMichael Malice
But this is a whole long story. So there was a scene in New York in the '90s called The Club Kids. And they would go out to different nightclubs at night. They would all dress in really kind of crazy, um, costumes. And but the costumes were all like- like goofy and like- dressed like- like an angel. This one's dressed like a nurse. It wa- there was a juvenile aspect to it. They're all taking, you know, ketamine and- and ecstasy till all hours. This is kind of rave culture was coming up in there. And the head of it ... and in fact there's, um, a clip on YouTube, I think it was the Jane Whitney Show, of The Club Kids and GG Allin. GG Allin is a- a- a, you know, kind of punk rock performer, hard rock performer, who passed away. And the audi- and GG Allin was very, uh, aggressive and like a crazy person. My friend once saw him in- in a concert and he took a dump on stage, smeared it all over his face, grabbed a girl from the audience and gave her a big kiss, and as she walked by him, she- he- she went like this, "Ugh," like, "Excuse me," like went to the bathroom. So the audience is screaming at GG Allin because he's very visibly over the top.
- LFLex Fridman
Yeah.
- MMMichael Malice
Whereas you got a bunch of these kids dressed in these silly costumes, you guys are just having fun. Well, the head of The Club Kids, Michael Alig, ended up killing someone. There was a kid called Angel Menendez who hung around with them. He would always have angel wings and boots. Uh, one time they were at Michael's condo, uh, with, um, another- with a drug dealer named Freeze. They got into a fight so- and Angel got hit in the head with a hammer. They kill him. What are we gonna do with the body? Uh, they put it on ice in the bathtub. They had a party, so everyone's going to the bathroom while Angel's body's there. Michael got ... they're like, "All right, we gotta take care of this." Michael got extremely high on heroin, had, like, uh, silk cutlery from Macy's, saw the body in pieces, put it in a box. They took him in a cab. The cab driver helped them throw the body into the river, and then Michael starts walking around Manhattan wearing Angel's boots (laughs) and would tell people, "Oh, I killed Angel." Now, because he was a super effeminate, over-the-top, like he would pee in people's beer kind of guy, everyone's like, "Oh God, Michael," like, you- "You know, like, you and your stupid pranks." Uh, but it was true, and he got caught, um, and he got sentenced to jail. So I was in a store in Manhattan, in SoHo, and it was one of those stores where you have like all sorts of things for sale, and I saw a painting and it said, "Malice." And I'm like, "Wait, what?" And it was M. Alig. It was a Michael Alig painting.
- LFLex Fridman
Mm-hmm.
- MMMichael Malice
He had painted while in jail. So my mom bought it for me for my birthday. I don't remember what birthday that was. And I started writing him in prison. He was gonna write a memoir called Aligula, which is clever, and then I actually went to visit him. Like, "I wanna see what this person's like," 'cause on the- on one hand, he's king of New York nightlife, this goofy person, and it's also kind of ironic that GG Allin is like maybe he's gross, he's not killing anyone, he's probably an accountant, off the stage and Michael Alig actually did- killed someone and then bragged about it, tongue in cheek. So but meeting him, he passed away last December, um, uh, on Christmas actually, Dec- uh, Christmas, uh, 20, uh, uh, 20. Um, he was clearly a sociopath, and I'd never met a sociopath before. Now, a lot of times we'll read these, like you'll take a BuzzFeed quiz, like, "Are you a sociopath?" And it's like, "Oh, my feelings weren't hurt when I was mean to someone." It's not a thin line between, like,... me and you and him, it's a thick, thick line. Because when you're talking to someone like that, at least in this specific case, he was being very friendly. He wasn't... And it's not like he was gonna kill anyone or is a threat to me. Um, but there is that sense like something's really off here. And he was talking to me about how after he had killed Angel, he would just talk about it because he felt so much guilt, he just wanted to get caught. It's like, no, no, no. You... What he was describing wasn't guilt. He was describing just he didn't like the, um, the knife over his head, like waiting to get caught. I'm like, "You don't even know what guilt is?" So it was kinda like, oh, wow. So, uh, as for Jeffrey Epste-... But the thing is, Michael Alig is in, was in a very low social position.
- 36:36 – 42:49
Jeffrey Epstein and Bill Clinton
- LFLex Fridman
What were- were we talking about? So Jeffrey Ep- Oh, one thing I wanted to ask you. So let's put scientists aside. What about like, uh, world leaders? Uh, Bill Clinton, your favorite person. Wh- why would he fly with Jeffrey Epstein? Wh- why would he interact with that guy?
- MMMichael Malice
I mean, don't you think that that's kind of the deal? That I'm the president and I get big and powerful people flying me around their jets, and that's a symbiotic relationship?
- LFLex Fridman
Yeah. But don't you also have a good BS detector? Like the- the- don't you have a good detector for people who just want to be in your presence? Like, I already understand that there's people like this out there. Like there's people that kinda want to use me for stuff. And-
- MMMichael Malice
You mean Tim Dillon.
- LFLex Fridman
Tim Dillon.
- MMMichael Malice
(laughs)
- LFLex Fridman
Um, (laughs) . Uh, I love that guy. You guys met?
- MMMichael Malice
We haven't met yet here.
- LFLex Fridman
We haven't met. Okay. Wow.
- MMMichael Malice
Yeah. We met before in New York, but we had not since I moved here.
- LFLex Fridman
Yeah. So you should be able to detect that tho- there's those people and there's the people that have kindness in their heart, even if they can benefit from the interaction with you. But they have like... They're good human beings. And I feel like you want to... You run into a lot of trouble if you surround yourself or have any people that are manipulative like that.
- MMMichael Malice
But I think you're giving a bad example 'cause like let's look at Clinton and let's look at Obama, right?
- LFLex Fridman
Yeah.
- MMMichael Malice
So Obama, even though their politics are very close, I'd say in many ways, Obama is apparent. We don't know. I don't know either of them. But to me it seems very apparent that he's, uh, very similar behind closed doors as in front of the camera.
- LFLex Fridman
Yeah, yeah. He's- he's Barack to me.
- MMMichael Malice
Okay, yeah.
- LFLex Fridman
Like yeah, yeah. We're... He's good.
- MMMichael Malice
Yeah. Clinton seems very clearly to be much more of a performer. He's in front of the camera, so he puts on a role, but behind the cameras, he- he very much has a temper. He's known for that. He's much more of a lech. Um-
- LFLex Fridman
What's that?
- MMMichael Malice
A pervert.
- LFLex Fridman
Oh, lech with an E?
- MMMichael Malice
L-E-T-C-H. Yeah.
- LFLex Fridman
Oh cool.
- MMMichael Malice
Yeah.
- LFLex Fridman
Lech.
- MMMichael Malice
Yeah.
- LFLex Fridman
Is that like a... That's a cool term. So it's... I can use that on the internet?
- MMMichael Malice
You could.
- LFLex Fridman
Like, "You're a lech."
- MMMichael Malice
Yeah. You could use it on the internet.
- 42:49 – 49:29
Christmas and New Years for Russians
- LFLex Fridman
uh, we, we started talking about beauty, uh, who are you wearing?
- MMMichael Malice
(laughs)
- LFLex Fridman
(laughs) So as a model, uh, under, you usually have, don't have a shirt on when you're modeling. (laughs) So it's nice to see you, uh, dressed up today, um. (laughs) . Nice and warm.
- MMMichael Malice
This is because, so for those who don't know, for Russians, don't celebrate Christmas. Obviously with the Soviet Union, Christmas was illegal.
- LFLex Fridman
No Thanksgiving, basically no major holidays where everyone gets together. This is the one holiday.
- MMMichael Malice
Yeah.
- LFLex Fridman
New Year's.
- MMMichael Malice
New Year's. No, they call it-
- LFLex Fridman
It's the one holiday.
- MMMichael Malice
And instead of-
- LFLex Fridman
Oh.
- MMMichael Malice
... I remember as a kid, instead of Santa Claus, we have Ded Moroz, who's the same thing basically.
- LFLex Fridman
It's like Android and iPhone. It's, it's like a cheap version-
- MMMichael Malice
Yeah, yeah.
- LFLex Fridman
... of s- of Christmas.
- MMMichael Malice
He's got this girl with him, she's like Snow White or whatever. And Russian kids, they go to sleep on December 31st, and they wake up January, they have a present under their pillow.
- LFLex Fridman
Mm-hmm.
- MMMichael Malice
Um, and I remember as a kid this happened once, and it just blew my mind. You know what I mean? It's just like, I went to bed, my dad's like, "Oh, you know, you're gonna have... Ded Moroz is gonna bring you a present if you've been a good kid." I'm like, "I, I think I was a good kid." (laughs) Like, but you don't even remember a year of your life when you're four.
- LFLex Fridman
Yeah.
- MMMichael Malice
Uh, you remember like to-
- LFLex Fridman
But you remember those moments.
- MMMichael Malice
Yeah, and then I woke up and there was a present under my pillow, and I'm, I was, it just blew my mind. And that building is still there, 1461 Shore Parkway in Brooklyn. So, um, and it w- it's just all so funny, like, uh, wh- what I really like about kids, you know, being an uncle now, is kid logic. Because they're, have very little bit (laughs) of data, but they're using logic to m- make sense of it, and sometimes it gives them t- the completely wrong conclusions for the completely right reasons.
- LFLex Fridman
Mm-hmm.
- MMMichael Malice
I remember, you know, I, I, my bedroom as a kid was right off the kitchen, and I'd be scared of the dark a little bit, so they'd leave the light on in the kitchen while I went to sleep. And at the same time, my parents had told me, "You don't leave the lights on in the house, it costs money, wastes electricity," right? So I would be worried 'cause I'm like, "Oh my god, my parents leave the lights on in the kitchen all night, (laughs) and now it's costing them so much money."
- LFLex Fridman
Mm-hmm.
- MMMichael Malice
Not realizing that, you know, five minutes after I'm out, obviously they're turning the lights off. But-
- LFLex Fridman
(laughs) .
- MMMichael Malice
... like in my kid logic, uh, this was a concern of mine.
- LFLex Fridman
Yeah, and, and memories work that same way. I have a collection of memories that are stitched together logically somehow, but they, they also don't really make sense. There's a, there's a few defining things. So I, I grew up in, in Russia and experienced a lot in, uh, New Year's in Russia. There's a, there's, um, a lot of incredible things about that tradition that just warms my heart. So one, as a kid, you mentioned these kind of s- stories, that's the one night of the year that kids are allowed to be adults in the following way. Like, you, uh, in, in, in kid logic.
- MMMichael Malice
Yeah.
- 49:29 – 57:07
Russian cynicism and suffering
- MMMichael Malice
very different.
- LFLex Fridman
It all comes out. And I, I also remember the arguments and I've, I've been, uh, going on, um, Clubhouse recently into Russian rooms just to pr-
- MMMichael Malice
Oh, Jesus.
- LFLex Fridman
Well, just to practice Russian and, uh, they, it's so beautiful to watch. I mean, Clubhouse is a very specific collection of Russian people, maybe it's a little bit political but, and they're a little bit older, um, and it's interesting to watch how much they love to argue, like they love-
- MMMichael Malice
Oh, Russia, Russians love to argue. Yeah.
- LFLex Fridman
And so like, it, it would be literally, um, it's, you could think of it as a nonlinear dynamical system, okay, from an engineering perspective. It, whenever any positive topic comes up, it's, you could, you could feel the skepticism and then wait a minute, this is not good.
- MMMichael Malice
Yeah. Yeah.
- LFLex Fridman
And they'll start like, uh, perturbing it until you're like, uh, th- they'll find some way to say it like, "Come on now, that is the dumbest thing I've ever heard." And then it goes back into argument. It's so fun to watch because, uh, in one sense you could see it as negative, in another you could see it as free to express yourself because it feels like you can solve a lot of problems by allowing yourself to just, uh, be emotional and b- both, both emotional and say hard truth and all those kinds of things without like, um, without com- patting yourself on the back about it. Uh, but also it just, sort of those Russian rooms make me realize how constrained American speech is, how careful people are in the way they express it, even the Michael Morellis in the world. You're, you're constantly being like nuanced. (laughs) There they just say crazy shit.
- MMMichael Malice
Oh yeah, oh yeah.
- LFLex Fridman
And then they correct themselves and make fun of themselves and they completely shift opinions a minute later and it's, it's chaos.
- MMMichael Malice
Yeah.
- LFLex Fridman
And it's, I mean, it's, it's beautiful cha- so I, I love that that culture is pre- it's funny given the current regime in Russia, like how that's coupled with how people are talking and, um, yeah, I don't know, and I have those m- memories of childhood of, uh, of friends that I had of just having that true freedom of talking and somehow that leads to, uh, deep bonds together. Uh, when, when the life, when you're poor, when life is, uh, has a lot of elements that are unfair, when the government is corrupt, there's sort of, it's just, um, especially in the Soviet Union, there's uncertainty about the future, all of it, you just get closer together like penguins huddling together in the cold, like that March of the Penguins movie, that I don't know, uh, the, the friends I've gotten there, like, I get e- emotional every time I kind of th- think about those friends 'cause it was so close. That friendship was so fucking close.
- MMMichael Malice
But I just really hate the, the Russian cynicism.
- LFLex Fridman
I know you do and I actually disagree with you about it. You see it as cynicism, I see it as, um, waves on top of the water, like surface cynicism and the depths as I see the beauty of the Russian soul. So we, like, yes, that cynicism can negatively affect a lot of people like you, yeah I think you've talked about like as a parent, like, uh, being cynical about the world-
- MMMichael Malice
Yeah.
- LFLex Fridman
... and then you have, uh, uh, dire negative consequences on your children, they become cynical, they don't ever take big risks or take on bold things and I have those arguments, um, because the cynicism is, is exhausting, it's destructive-
- MMMichael Malice
Yes.
- LFLex Fridman
... it's an- anti-creative. But so, and, and their perspective is this is what the Russian folks would say, "Well yes, that's our role." Like, being cynical is being reasonable about the world, is being a realist.
- MMMichael Malice
But it's not, it's complete unreasonable, it's a complete lie.
- LFLex Fridman
No, I know but their argument is yes but we're, we're giving you this force and it's your job to resist against it. So it's a test.
- MMMichael Malice
I love, I, I love the idea that if you're gonna be creative and innovative you don't have enough up against you.
- LFLex Fridman
Yeah, exactly. This is exactly it but-
- MMMichael Malice
Like, oh I don't, I don't, it's not hard enough already that I want to be an author and now you got to be like, "Well what are, let, let me just put some fire ants on top of it."
- LFLex Fridman
So I, I just want to separate, I agree with you that the cynicism is, is bad and destructive but the idea that life is suffering and thinking from that as a first principle I think there's a lot of beauty to be discovered through that. So there's a cynicism and then there's-
- MMMichael Malice
Horrible message, uh, life is suffering?
- LFLex Fridman
No, not... Well yeah, I mean, Camus, um-
- MMMichael Malice
Camus doesn't think that.
- LFLex Fridman
The, well now we're going into, uh, definitions of suffering then because absurd, what, see-
- MMMichael Malice
Life is absurd and life is suffering are not even close to the same concept.
- LFLex Fridman
Well then you're just defining the terms differently so you-
- 57:07 – 1:10:03
Gift exchange
- LFLex Fridman
- MMMichael Malice
This is not suffering. But this is absurd.
- LFLex Fridman
I just noticed there's a box with a, with a big bow on it next to you. What's in the box, Michael?
- MMMichael Malice
It's your present. So it's your present for New Year's.
- LFLex Fridman
Can, uh, c- can we open it?
- MMMichael Malice
Yeah, sure.
- LFLex Fridman
What's in the box?
- MMMichael Malice
It's gonna take me-
- LFLex Fridman
And you brought up suffering. This is gonna be very unpleasant.
- MMMichael Malice
Here you go. I packed it myself. Yeah, there's a whole process in there. So there's three presents in there.
- LFLex Fridman
Lex, I'll read the card first.
- MMMichael Malice
Okay.
- LFLex Fridman
Something about opening presents, like tearing stuff, makes me feel like... 'cause like I just tore this sheet of paper.
- MMMichael Malice
Yeah.
- LFLex Fridman
So it'll never be the same again.
- MMMichael Malice
(laughs) It's entropy.
- LFLex Fridman
It's ent- it's entropy. Time is... "You've got a powerful voice. You've got a powerful voice. To Lex, thank you..." Maybe I should read the other card first. "You've got a powerful voice. Listening to what you have to say always puts me in a hopeful place." I feel like this is building up to something. "You show me how change can happen when you face the world with pride, confidence, and a voice that can't be silenced. Keep speaking up. The world is listening."
- MMMichael Malice
Yeah.
- LFLex Fridman
There's no cynicism in this card.
- MMMichael Malice
No. This is about, this is New Year's. This is all about hope and joy.
- LFLex Fridman
Love. (laughs)
- MMMichael Malice
What?
- LFLex Fridman
"To Lex," I'm seeing the binary.
- MMMichael Malice
Oh.
- LFLex Fridman
"To Lex, thank you for setting the path for me to move to Austin. 01001001011011000110110101. Michael Malice."
- MMMichael Malice
Yeah.
- LFLex Fridman
Brings tears to my eyes. (laughs) Thank you, brother.
- MMMichael Malice
My pleasure.
- LFLex Fridman
Let's get to the present.
- MMMichael Malice
(laughs) Okay.
- 1:10:03 – 1:15:30
Michael's move to Austin
- LFLex Fridman
This is New Year's. This is- this is now December 31st, I think that's how it works, but in 1973.
- MMMichael Malice
Okay.
- LFLex Fridman
Uh, we recorded this before you were born. Or no, um, years after you were born, in the '60s. You look great for a '60... Is it early '60s, or...
- MMMichael Malice
Sure.
- LFLex Fridman
Okay. What five things, let's say, or moments in 2021 are you grateful for? Or people? Just, I don't know, things, moments, beautiful experiences. Profound essences of the year. Like, looking back, what are the cool things that you just-
- MMMichael Malice
Personally or socially?
- LFLex Fridman
D- do you exist, like, in a platonic way, socially? I mean, per- oh, in your personal life?
- MMMichael Malice
Yeah.
- LFLex Fridman
Anything. You're- you're both... You're now Michael Malice, you exist as a social entity and a personal human being, and all of it, the whole thing. Like, what- what stands out to you about 2021?
- MMMichael Malice
Uh, the fact that, for the first time in my life other than college, I moved to a new city. That was a very big one, and there's no part of me that regrets it or misses New York. So that was a very big deal for me.
- LFLex Fridman
What do you, uh... About this move, about Austin itself, about maybe the move itself. May- maybe just the act of moving. What- what, um, what's great about it to you?
- MMMichael Malice
The fact that I had forgotten what it's like to have a huge social network, which I had in New York, before people started falling away, and then it really escalated as a result of de Blasio and- and the COVID restrictions. So to have a big crew here, um, is something that was very validating. The thing that's also exciting about Austin is that Austin is not a particularly big town, it's not a particularly great town, but everyone here, at least in the circles I travel in, is kind of a refugee from their towns. So i- there is this sense of camaraderie, there is this sense of we're building something together. Back in New York, when you meet someone, it would be like, "Who is this person? Why am I talking to them?" Like, "Are they a normie? Are they gonna be weird?" And here, there's very little of that. I think there's much more sense of trust with one another, uh, when you meet new people. So that's something that's really exciting about, um... Like, I've been introducing all my friends to each other, and everyone's been hitting it off like gangbusters. It's really great. So I really enjoy that about, um, Austin. I'm enjoying, you know, the weather, the space. Uh...
- LFLex Fridman
You've read Kerouac? Any of his stuff?
- MMMichael Malice
I have. On the Road, I read. I read a biography of him.
- LFLex Fridman
What... I- I don't know if it was on... I think it was On the Road. Uh, where he- he talks about that feeling when, um, you're going to some place... You're leaving a place, and you're going somewhere else.... and the, the place you're leaving disappears behind you.
- MMMichael Malice
Yeah.
- LFLex Fridman
And all the people, and a- all... Like, the, you just think about that life, and it's forever gone. And th- there's some inkling of that where, um, you get to realize your almost mortality because, okay, that's a chapter, and there's not many more. I know it's a beautiful chapter. But now onto the next chapter. Is there a melancholy feeling there?
- MMMichael Malice
No, it's the opposite. I feel like I've been given a new lease on life 'cause I didn't realize to what extent there was this subtext of hopelessness in New York, and also people who, in New York, you don't appreciate, or you appreciate it consciously but you can't escape it emotionally, how much the winters get to you, psychologically. Uh, it's, it's tough. It gets dark so early. It gets cold. You can't walk around. Like that's the thing that's fun about it, or was fun about New York is that, you know, when the weather's warm you can walk for an hour and just enjoy-
- LFLex Fridman
Mm-hmm.
- MMMichael Malice
... the sunshine and there's a lot to see and do. But in the winter, you don't have any of that. It's, it's brutal. Uh, and here it's just, uh ... So that is something. There's no melancholy at all.
- LFLex Fridman
Well, that's because there's ... Can we say something beautiful about New York? Not the way it is now, but the way it ...
- MMMichael Malice
I could go on for days about how great New York was.
- LFLex Fridman
What did you learn about human civilization, just life that was beautiful, from New York?
- MMMichael Malice
I learned that there's a lot of really unique, special people out there who are doing their little part to move the envelope and make the world a better place. And that when you have a city where they're all there together at the same time, then that really moves the world. And I'm thinking of Paris in the '20s-
- LFLex Fridman
Mm-hmm.
- MMMichael Malice
... and Harlem in the '20s-
- LFLex Fridman
Yeah.
- MMMichael Malice
... and New York in the '70s, and, uh, uh, LA in the late '60s, and San Francisco especially in the late '60s, things like this. Uh, they really punch above Detroit certainly at its heyday. They punch above their weight and, and just really kind of ... Philadelphia in 17, 1700s, things really start happening that ripples throughout the world.
- LFLex Fridman
You think Austin has a chance-
- MMMichael Malice
Yes.
- 1:15:30 – 1:22:02
The Anarchist Handbook
- LFLex Fridman
- MMMichael Malice
I did a book with a UFC fighter and I was making the point, uh, he was a nine-time world champion, that I would never be as good at my job as he was at his.
- LFLex Fridman
Yeah.
- MMMichael Malice
And then when I dropped Anarchist Handbook in May and it was the top non-fiction book on Amazon for like most of a day, I was like, "Oh, I'm the top non-fiction writer in America (laughs) just for today." I was like, "Oh, crap. Okay. So I guess I was wrong (laughs) that, that, that was a major deal." I w- I was still shocked and delighted.
- LFLex Fridman
By the way, congratulations and I'm truly happy for you, man.
- MMMichael Malice
It ... Well, it's-
- LFLex Fridman
I'm so proud.
- MMMichael Malice
But it's also I, I'm proud because these are people who had points of view and they-
- LFLex Fridman
Mm-hmm.
- MMMichael Malice
... didn't have it easy, and they fought for what they believed in, and insofar as I get to rescue them, to some extent, from the dustbin of history and say, "These people really mattered and they really are worth hearing," uh, I, I, I ... That I love. I love stuff like that. Um, you know, I, I was talking to a friend of mine, Topher, uh, like a year ago and y- 'cause we're in a weird position with what kind of jobs we have. So like I'll be talking on my live streams about people like Candy Darling or Wallace Thurman and, like these are not household names at all, and then I'd be like proud of myself that I'm the one who brings them to some sort of more prominence. And then you wanna tell yourself, "Well, get over yourself. Who you think you are?" But it's like, but no one else is talking about these people, or very few. So to be able to kinda, um, give them some kind of stature and platform that they deserve, I think, is, uh, I, I love being able to do that.
- LFLex Fridman
So you have a strong voice yourself and, to, to sort of join them in ... It's like, uh, John Lennon with the, joining in with The Beatles, is like a chorus of very different views on an- anarchism. Just it's celebrating the individuals, it's celebrating the idea, and you are, I think will be remembered as a, a powerful philosopher yourself but like you're almost taking ... Just the humility of being in a room with powerful minds together in one book is cool.
- MMMichael Malice
Yeah, and that th- these people mattered and they had-
- LFLex Fridman
Yeah.
- MMMichael Malice
... a unique perspective. Um, and as I said in the introduction to the book, I remember I was in college and we were studying bioethics and there was like a, uh, like a graph in the book and one sh- part says antinomianism which was the view that ... And one side said legalism, right? The two extremes. Legalism is what is l- legal as defined by the government, or what is moral as defined by the government, and one said antinomianism which is nothing stands above moral law. And then there was like, well, since no one believes in this the answer is so much on the other side. It's like, well, why is it on the chart if no one beli- if it has a name, someone believes in it.
- LFLex Fridman
(laughs)
- MMMichael Malice
You know? So, you know, anarchism is a word that's bandied about and, and in a dismissive way. And it's like, you don't have to like me or agree with what I'm saying but you can't pretend that they weren't ... Tolstoy. You're gonna tell me Tolstoy doesn't know what he's talking about completely? He's in there. Uh, he was an anarchist. So, um, it, it was, it was a big accomplishment.
- LFLex Fridman
It was really cool to get a chance to do the audiobook, uh, for you, you did an incredible thing which is got a bunch of really cool people, uh, to read, a lot of interesting varied people to
- NANarrator
Yeah.
- MMMichael Malice
Yeah.
- LFLex Fridman
... make the-
- MMMichael Malice
So what I did for the audiobook, which I-... it- I, I don't like the idea that hard work is inherently good 'cause sometimes being lazy is actually the right choice.
- LFLex Fridman
Yeah.
- MMMichael Malice
So I'm like, "Wait a minute, why am I reading all 23 chapters when it's 23 different authors?" It doesn't make sense. So I hit my Rolodex and I had different people read different chapters to make it sound literally-
- LFLex Fridman
Mm-hmm.
- MMMichael Malice
... like you have the different voices in the book. "Thank you very much. You did my..." Uh, 'cause I was gonna read my chapter. Wait a minute, like all the other authors are being read by somebody else.
- LFLex Fridman
(laughs)
- MMMichael Malice
Let's have Lex read mine. The one chapter I am most moved by is, I di- uh, Lauren Chen, she's a podcaster as well. She's e- expecting now, so we wish nothing but the best for Lauren and Liam, and the baby. Um, there's a chapter there by this guy named Charles Robert Plunkett called Dynamite, and he's advocating for making bombs and killing people, uh, killing, you know, the forces of capitalism. And Emma Goldman, uh, it was published in her essay while she was on lecture tour, and she was just like, "Why is this in here? This is, this is just really gonna make us look bad," so on and so forth. And when you're dealing with any kind of... You know, H. L. Mencken has that quote about every rational man must at times be tempted to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats.
- LFLex Fridman
Mm-hmm.
- MMMichael Malice
So I wanted to talk- it sound like the seductive aspect of violence.
- LFLex Fridman
Mm-hmm.
Episode duration: 3:23:41
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