Michael Malice: New Year's Special | Lex Fridman Podcast #253

Lex Fridman 0:00 Уважаемые дамы и господа, the following is a conversation with Michael Malice, his fifth time on this, the Lex Fridman podcast. To support it, please check out our sponsors in the description, and now here's my New Year's Eve 2021 conversation with the one and only, Mr. Michael Malice.

Lex Fridman 0:23 Привет, товарищ.

Michael Malice 0:24 С Новым годом!

Lex Fridman 0:25 С Новым годом! Достоевский wrote in The Idiot, my favorite of his books, through, uh, the main character, Prince Myshkin, that beauty will save the world. Красота спасет мир. These words, seemingly naïve and ultimately, at least to me, profound. What do they mean to you? Beauty will save the world.

Michael Malice 0:46 Naïve? Really? I don't think they seem naïve at all.

Lex Fridman 0:50 Well, uh, Solzhenitsyn, actually for his 1970 Nobel Prize, uh, speech, talked about this line a lot. And he thought for most of his life that it was a silly line, it was just words thrown out there. Because with all the suffering that's in the world, what has beauty actually ever done?

Michael Malice 1:07 Oh my God, I hate this so much.

Lex Fridman 1:10 (laughs) .

Michael Malice 1:10 I- I- I-

Lex Fridman 1:10 Talking trash about Solzhenitsyn?

Michael Malice 1:11 Yeah, I am.

Lex Fridman 1:12 Okay.

Michael Malice 1:13 Um, and this is- perfectly sets up this theme, you know, why I said let's do this episode, start the new year on a positive note, give people hope, give people joy. Uh, y- you and I both have friends who are models, right? And it's a silly profession to some extent, of course, but-

Lex Fridman 1:30 You are actually a model.

Michael Malice 1:32 I a-

Lex Fridman 1:33 And you are my friend (laughs) .

Michael Malice 1:33 I am. That's right, that's true. I am an under model. I was trying to be subtle, but for those people who actually, you know, deserve to be models, um, when you look at someone who is a model and in some of their photos, and these- they- these people look perfect. Now in real life they're not perfect, they have flaws, they'll be the first to admit it, so on and so forth, but when you look at beauty, it is almost impossible to maintain a sense of cynicism and hopelessness. Because if there's even one moment when some, uh, element of perfection has been a- actualized, if there's one moment where, uh, beauty has been realized and captured, you can't say, "Well, it's never gonna happen again." So I think beauty, i- it means hope. I think... I hate that cynical idea of like, um... I- I get, I- I appreciate Solzhenitsyn's broader point in that a lot of times people, there's something called the deepity, where people throw words together to sound profound, and if you s- take it apart, like this is just complete gibberish. I don't think this is an example of that. I think b- beauty inspires and it v- more importantly, it proves to you this is something that can actually happen on this earth. Plato, right, the platonic theory of forms, like this world isn't perfect, but these perfect forms exist in another dimension and that's where our concepts come from. You know, he's a- he was an early, uh, person trying to figure out where our concepts come from, uh, and epistemology and so on and so forth. Um, but that is something that is real and here. So I completely disagree with, uh, his analysis of that, and I don't know if it'll save the world, but it's certainly a prerequisite. And what's the point of fighting for your values if you don't wanna make the world a more beautiful place?

Lex Fridman 3:23 Well, it's also how you define beauty, 'cause beauty could be just aesthetic beauty, it could be art. Of course, art could be, could, uh, encompass a lot, a lot more than just literature and paintings. It can encompass the full life, the full dance of life. But then beauty could be something just, uh, deeper, like whatever that awe you feel when you pause and hear the music, just hear and, like look up at the stars. Like for some reason when I see rockets go up, for me it's like science. What is that? The awe that we're able to accomplish that as humans.

Michael Malice 4:04 You know, that's funny 'cause, you know, there's lots of different schools of thought, like th- these people versus these people, and- and, you know, maybe vegans versus, um, steakhouse people. I think in terms of the sciences, and I guess you and I would be on opposite sides here.

Lex Fridman 4:18 Mm-hmm.

Michael Malice 4:18 You have the astronomy people versus the zoology people.

Lex Fridman 4:23 (laughs) .

Michael Malice 4:23 Like the qu- the big question is would you rather spend 10 minutes on the moon or would you rather spend 10 minutes in the deep sea? And for me, it's clearly the deep sea. Um, the zoology that's down there, uh, there's something I would encourage people to look up, uh, called deepstaria, which is a jellyfish and the g- the scientists is- and what's amazing when you watch these deep sea dives on YouTube is that the scientists are, they're- they're nature dorks like everybody else. They- they- they went into this field, and there's none of this maybe Solzhenitsyn style cynicism of when they see an amazing animal in its natural environment, you know, exhibiting these crazy behaviors. They lose it. They're on the mics like, "Oh my God!" And like it's so exciting to watch. So, uh, I- I'm not a rocket person, but I'm definitely a zoology person.

Lex Fridman 5:13 So animals and plants and the sea.

Michael Malice 5:15 The- and also, it's- it's so mathematical. There's so much, so many forms. There's- there's this, um, there's this plant called Ariospermum titanopsoides. I don't know how to pronounce it 'cause they're always in Latin, you never hear them pronounced.

Lex Fridman 5:27 You said sperm.

Michael Malice 5:28 (laughs) . Ariospermum. Yeah, 'cause it's woolly seed is the- is the genus. Um, the leaf, it's just always puts out one leaf.

Lex Fridman 5:35 Mm-hmm.

Michael Malice 5:36 But the leaf is covered in little magnifying glasses, uh, lenses, to make it maximize the sunlight. So it looks like this little crystal seashell. It's tiny, it's like two centimeters, but it's just this amazing thing that h- that grows out of the sands in South Africa.

Lex Fridman 5:53 Just to defend Solzhenitsyn for a second. So if I may read a couple of his lines from the speech.

Michael Malice 5:58 Sure.

Lex Fridman 5:58 So he said, uh, "One day..." This is how he introduces it, "One day, Dostoevsky threw out the enigmatic remark, 'Beauty will save the world.'""What sort of a statement is that? For a long time, I considered it mere words. How could that be possible? When in bloodthirsty history did beauty ever save anyone from anything?" And then later, he goes on to argue with himself in the speech, as a older, wiser man now. "But perhaps that ancient trinity of Truth, Goodness, and Beauty is not simply an empty, faded formula, as we thought in the days of our self-confident, materialistic youth. If the tops of these three trees converge, as the scholars maintained, but the too blatant, too direct stems of Truth and Goodness are crushed, cut down, not allowed through, then perhaps the fantastic, unpredictable, unexpected stems of Beauty will push through and soar to that very same place, and in so doing, will fulfill the work of all three. In that case, Dostoevsky's remark, 'Beauty will save the world,' was not a careless phrase, but a prophecy." Uh, which of your- which of these three things are your favorites; Truth, Goodness, or Beauty? What- what did he call Truth and Goodness? "The blatant, too direct stems of Truth and Goodness," um, versus, "The fantastic, unpredictable, unexpected stems of Beauty," which is how I see your Twitter account.

Michael Malice 7:29 (laughs) I- I don't think... I think there's a certain dearth of Beauty to be had on my Twitter account, that's for sure. Uh, and certainly no Goodness. Um, I- I- I-

Lex Fridman 7:37 (laughs) . Or Truth.

Michael Malice 7:37 Yeah, yeah. (laughing) It's- it's Twitter, there's no Truth to be found. Uh, I would... I will answer the question. I will of course point out that having this kind of, you know, distinction between the three things is, I think, kind of synthetic.

Lex Fridman 7:51 Yeah.

Michael Malice 7:51 I think they very heavily overlap, if not... And so I could probably make the argument they're synonymous. Um, in fact, I do believe that they're largely synonymous. Um...

Lex Fridman 8:02 Goodness. That's such an interesting word. Goodness.

Michael Malice 8:04 Um, uh, which of those three is my favorite? Uh, I think Truth is overrated in the sense that if something is a good story, the story doesn't have to be true or real in order to motivate you and- and- and move you. Um, a lot of times we can delude ourselves about somebody, uh, and that might actually serve a purpose to some extent. You know, if you have someone who's maybe a family member, and you kind of ignore bad things that they do, uh, there might be reason for that. Um, of the three, which is most important? I think I would say probably Goodness. I would say of the three, the most important is Goodness, because if you don't appreciate goodness, then beauty is just empty. It's just a pho- it's just a picture, or it's nice. Um, bad people appreciate beauty. Uh, you know, bad people are often, you know, seductive or- or have a beauty about them.

Lex Fridman 9:11 And in terms of action, I think it takes a lot of skill and work to create beauty, or to create truth, or to express truth, or to express beauty. But I think goodness is a... It's like, um, the easiest default state of being, just being good to others.

Michael Malice 9:29 Yeah. Like, you know, like there- there'll be things where... These videos where, like, one dog is drowning and, like, another dog jumps in and saves it from the- the pool. Like, that to me is just really amazing stuff, uh, and is very moving. Um, so just to me, goodness means integrity, and it means kindness. Um, and yeah, I think of the three, that's my- would be the one I pick.

Lex Fridman 9:57 Yeah, you're-

Michael Malice 9:57 And I think people... Sorry to interrupt. I think people also have this idea which is inculcated to them, especially by corporate America, that as you get older it's okay to do the wrong things sometimes, blah, blah, blah, blah. I don't buy that. And so I think goodness gets rarer and rarer, um, and- and I think people know better and they tell themselves lies.

Lex Fridman 10:18 Yeah. Uh, but once you get... Allow yourself the chance to just be good, I think it's- makes for a better life.

Michael Malice 10:27 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 10:27 It's like it's not that much work. Like, it's not like, uh, going to the gym or working out. That's a lot of work and you... It's great afterwards. But, like, goodness is easy once you get into the habit of it. I suppose working out is the same way. There's a lot of stuff, if you make it a habit, you're- you're going to get the rewards of it-

Michael Malice 10:45 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 10:45 ... and it's going to be easy.

Michael Malice 10:46 The rewards of goodness, I think, are, uh, more immediate than the rewards of working

Michael Malice 10:50 out.

Lex Fridman 10:51 (inhales) As opposed to the hard drugs.

Michael Malice 10:53 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 10:53 If, uh... You mentioned this quote on one of your, uh, livestreams, I think. "If you save one life, you save the world."

Michael Malice 10:59 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 11:01 That's such a cool line. I think... I remember reading about Paul Farmer, I think his name is. He's a doctor that really... I mean, um, doctors in general, they kind of don't care about, like, what they're doing as a broad policy across, uh, hundreds of thousands of millions of people. They just care about the human in front of them, which is so interesting. They don't care it's gonna cost... Like in his case, to save one child, it will cost him hundreds of thousands of dollars. They don't care about that. They can't. They know very well that what... their actions can not be scaled, but they can't help but help the- the child in front of them. And it's so interesting. That's such an interesting way to live. And that- that's the way I kind of think when I try to do something positive, is, "Will this help one person?" (laughs) . And I just kind of imagine a- a specific person, depending on the thing that that would help with, like when I'm trying to create something, whether it's a piece of hardware, or- or a video, or anything like that, or educational material, a lecture, that kind of stuff.I don't know. What, what do you think about this quote? Like, what... Is- is it profound or just- just poetic?

Michael Malice 12:16 I think it's more profound than it sounds at first. Uh, the example I think of is Michele Bachmann. She was a former congresswoman from Minnesota. She clearly had crazy eyes, something weird is going on with her husband. But she adopted like, like 20 kids. Terry Schapert's another friend of mine. He's like a, either Navy SEAL or- or Marines. Uh, whatever it is, Terry, I apologize, I'm not trying to be funny. And he adopts, like, elder dogs. So j- going back to Bachmann, it's like, yeah, you can say she's crazy. You can make fun of her politics all you want and all that stuff's legitimate. But if you save a kid, give them a home, and you save them from the foster system, um, and you put a roof over their heads and make them feel loved and appreciated, it's really hard for me to sit here and call you, like, a totally bad person. I think that kinda thing is... Nick Searcy's another one. He adopted a kid, uh, and I- I said, "You're... I think you're a hero." Like, if you... There's so ma- y- you know, i- i- one of the things that's very hard for me in writing, as you know, I talk about this endlessly, this book, The White Pill. But writing about when people do hurtful things to children, it really is hard to watch. And it's hard to... 'Cause when you're an author you have to kind of empathize with the character. You have to... Where's this character coming from? Explain their point of view. And that's the one that's the hardest for me to wrap my head around. Like...

Lex Fridman 13:34 Cruelty to children?

Michael Malice 13:36 Yeah. Or- or- or... y- and- and yeah, sadism to children. It's just like, this is a tota... This is something even animals know not to do, do you know what I mean?

Lex Fridman 13:44 Yeah.

Michael Malice 13:44 Like dogs around... When you see them a- around kids, they're very protective. Like, if the kid pokes their eyes out, the dog doesn't do anything. So it's like, if you can't even get to that level, uh, what kind of person are you? So I think that quote, um, i- is a profound one and it's an important one. Uh, it also means we're not all called upon to be Superman, right? You only have a very finite ability to move the needle. But at the same time, if you have actually, you know, saved a life, you can go to meet your maker. You- you did your part. You know, you left the world a little bit better than you found it, and that's all you could ask of anybody.

Lex Fridman 14:22 Also, I think from a policy perspective, it seems we just do better when we focus on doing a small thing, helping a, helping one person. 'Cause it- it feels like when you start talking about communism and all those kinds of things, when you start to believe you could do good by a lot of people-

Michael Malice 14:38 Oh, yeah.

Lex Fridman 14:38 ... that's where your mind somehow stops being able to do good by a lot of people. That's when you start to think about utopias and somehow utopias goes to, um, feeds power into the brain to where it deludes you completely and then you start, "It's okay to crack a few eggs to make an omelet," kind of reasoning and y- you run into trouble. It seems like it's much better even when you have the power and the money and so on to achieve scale to focus on one and then... and th-

Michael Malice 15:06 Or locally, yeah.

Lex Fridman 15:07 Locally, yeah. Yeah.

Michael Malice 15:09 Because then it's also you have the feedback.

Lex Fridman 15:10 Exactly.

Michael Malice 15:10 Right? So if you have some kind of program, you know, in Austin or in Brooklyn or something like that and you're, you can, you could watch, "Oh, this is working. This isn't working," then you could port it out to other places. But top-down helping is, you know, at the very least, it's gonna be inefficient. And also I think it's a lot more useful when you're helping people when it's a one-on-one r- relationship because then it's less, I don't know about embarrassing, but certainly less something to receive help. And you also feel s- if... It's one thing if you get a check from the government, you know, food stamps. It's another thing if someone's like, "Hey, I'm gonna buy you groceries until you get back on your feet." You have this kinda motivation, I think for most people, to be like, "You know what? This person believed in me. I'm gonna make it worth their while that they believed in me."

Lex Fridman 15:51 Yeah.

Michael Malice 15:52 'Cause I didn't believe in me.

Lex Fridman 15:53 Yeah. Had I... Uh, when I was giving lectures at MIT there was one, um, I was scared shitless and, uh... I mean, everybody... You know how students are and all that kinda stuff. They're kinda bored.

Michael Malice 16:03 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 16:03 And they don't, they don't understand that you're human too. They're... yeah. (laughs)

Michael Malice 16:09 (laughs)

Lex Fridman 16:09 Or this is... Could be just me. Or they...

Michael Malice 16:11 (laughs) They don't understand you're trying to pass as human. (laughs)

Lex Fridman 16:13 I know. Uh, but there was one, one, uh, gentleman in the audience and he went to all the lectures. Uh, older gentleman. He was a faculty at MIT and he just without... very kinda nonchalant, just said, uh... After the lectures he would kinda nod at me and say, "You did great." And, uh, before... Like one time he said in a non-creepy way... I know this is gonna come off as creepy. He said, uh, "You look great today." Like, he said that in a, um... I don't... In the way... So he's like 60, 70, whatever. Like, he... in this k- I don't know. It- it's in a wise, sage way.

Michael Malice 16:51 Oh, okay.

Lex Fridman 16:51 'Cause I was wearing a suit and tie. Like, I look like... You know when you dress up like a young kid? You dress 'em up for something.

Michael Malice 16:57 For bar mitzvah. You get... (laughs) yeah. You got to do a bar mitzvah, yeah.

Lex Fridman 16:58 So he was just like, "All right." (laughs)

Michael Malice 17:00 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 17:00 "You're, uh... You're all dressed up. You look great."

Michael Malice 17:03 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 17:03 "You got this." I don't know. That has a lasting impact, that kinda pat on the back. But I agree with you. Um, cruelty towards other adults s- is somehow understandable 'cause it's, uh, a world full of conflict. But cruelty towards children doesn't... It doesn't quite... It d... I can't, I can't understand it. (laughs) I can't understand how you could act in a way that directly causes suffering to a child in front of you.

Michael Malice 17:35 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 17:36 That- that is... Like, the- the... I don't think I've ever talked to you... I mean, this might be a good time to ask you

Lex Fridman 17:41 about this. What do you make... What lessons do you draw about human civilization from Jeffrey Epstein? From just laying...

Michael Malice 17:49 Oh.

Lex Fridman 17:50 Everybody thinks about different things when... You- you talk to Eric Weinstein, he thinks about intelligence and, like, who... Uh, like, uh, Jeffrey Epstein is a front for something else. That's what he- he thinks about. I think about the weakness of grown men in the face of, uh, charismatic evil, which is like for me directly is MIT. I didn't know... I actually was... I guess I was at MIT when Jeff Epstein was just at the very end. He must have been there. Um...I didn't know any of this, but it- it really bothers me that nobody was able to see through this man, because he's obviously, what is also obvious to me, is that he was very charismatic. Like, (laughs) I mean, I- I- I try to think about human nature from this perspective, is, um, directly, like we said, help one life. Would I know a Jeffrey Epstein if he was in my life? Would I- would I know evil when I saw evil?

Michael Malice 18:51 Even if it's sitting across from you. (laughs)

Lex Fridman 18:53 Even- even, I mean, you- (laughs) so-

Michael Malice 18:57 (laughs)

Lex Fridman 18:57 (laughs) ... exactly, the evil laugh.

Michael Malice 18:58 (laughs)

Lex Fridman 18:58 Thank you. The- the thing ... (laughs)

Michael Malice 19:03 (laughs)

Lex Fridman 19:03 Well, there-

Michael Malice 19:04 It's the Necronomicon.

Lex Fridman 19:05 Well, the thing I ... and- and- and I'm sure we'll talk about it, maybe not, doesn't really matter, we- we see things, you and I, Michael, uh, very differently about a lot of things, politically and so on. The reason I- I like you a lot, the reason I like, uh, the people I do in my life is there's a- there's a warmth, there's a kindness, there's a humanity underneath it all. I don't really care what you believe. I don't care, like, I don't care what your Twitter says, you- you know, it's easy to mistake your Twitter to indicate that there's not a deeply human love for humanity in there. And that's what ... I'm detecting that. I think I would be able to detect that Jeffrey Epstein-

Michael Malice 19:44 When you say detect, I'm just imagining the T-1000 scans. (laughs)

Lex Fridman 19:47 Zzz.

Michael Malice 19:47 Yeah. (laughs)

Lex Fridman 19:48 Detected. Yes. Uh, I imagine, I hope I would be able to not- uh, detect that Ep- Epstein, uh, lacks that completely, even if he's charismatic in the- in the humor he has, even if he is, uh, charismatic in the expression of curiosity for science, which he did.

Michael Malice 20:09 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 20:09 He was curious about, like, uh, not just like b- boring, uh, minutia of science. He was interested about the big questions in science, which I could see that become exciting to scientists. Like, "Oh, wow, here's a person who's thinking big." That's always exciting when somebody goes into a room and thinks about like, "How do we solve intelligence? How do we travel faster than the speed of light?" That's exciting to people, especially people with money 'cause it's like, "All right, so we might be able to actually do big things here."

Michael Malice 20:40 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 20:40 Uh, but you could see through the bullshit, the- the dead- the deadness in the eyes. I don't know. Uh, so I think about that because I- I feel like I have the responsibility for me as an individual to detect evil.

Michael Malice 20:53 So I ... do you know who Michael Alig is?

Lex Fridman 20:56 No.

Michael Malice 20:57 Okay, this is gonna be a whole long ... this is gonna be on Lex clips.

Lex Fridman 21:00 Uh-oh.

Michael Malice 21:00 But this is a whole long story. So there was a scene in New York in the '90s called The Club Kids. And they would go out to different nightclubs at night. They would all dress in really kind of crazy, um, costumes. And but the costumes were all like- like goofy and like- dressed like- like an angel. This one's dressed like a nurse. It wa- there was a juvenile aspect to it. They're all taking, you know, ketamine and- and ecstasy till all hours. This is kind of rave culture was coming up in there. And the head of it ... and in fact there's, um, a clip on YouTube, I think it was the Jane Whitney Show, of The Club Kids and GG Allin. GG Allin is a- a- a, you know, kind of punk rock performer, hard rock performer, who passed away. And the audi- and GG Allin was very, uh, aggressive and like a crazy person. My friend once saw him in- in a concert and he took a dump on stage, smeared it all over his face, grabbed a girl from the audience and gave her a big kiss, and as she walked by him, she- he- she went like this, "Ugh," like, "Excuse me," like went to the bathroom. So the audience is screaming at GG Allin because he's very visibly over the top.

Lex Fridman 22:06 Yeah.

Michael Malice 22:06 Whereas you got a bunch of these kids dressed in these silly costumes, you guys are just having fun. Well, the head of The Club Kids, Michael Alig, ended up killing someone. There was a kid called Angel Menendez who hung around with them. He would always have angel wings and boots. Uh, one time they were at Michael's condo, uh, with, um, another- with a drug dealer named Freeze. They got into a fight so- and Angel got hit in the head with a hammer. They kill him. What are we gonna do with the body? Uh, they put it on ice in the bathtub. They had a party, so everyone's going to the bathroom while Angel's body's there. Michael got ... they're like, "All right, we gotta take care of this." Michael got extremely high on heroin, had, like, uh, silk cutlery from Macy's, saw the body in pieces, put it in a box. They took him in a cab. The cab driver helped them throw the body into the river, and then Michael starts walking around Manhattan wearing Angel's boots (laughs) and would tell people, "Oh, I killed Angel." Now, because he was a super effeminate, over-the-top, like he would pee in people's beer kind of guy, everyone's like, "Oh God, Michael," like, you- "You know, like, you and your stupid pranks." Uh, but it was true, and he got caught, um, and he got sentenced to jail. So I was in a store in Manhattan, in SoHo, and it was one of those stores where you have like all sorts of things for sale, and I saw a painting and it said, "Malice." And I'm like, "Wait, what?" And it was M. Alig. It was a Michael Alig painting.

Lex Fridman 23:25 Mm-hmm.

Michael Malice 23:25 He had painted while in jail. So my mom bought it for me for my birthday. I don't remember what birthday that was. And I started writing him in prison. He was gonna write a memoir called Aligula, which is clever, and then I actually went to visit him. Like, "I wanna see what this person's like," 'cause on the- on one hand, he's king of New York nightlife, this goofy person, and it's also kind of ironic that GG Allin is like maybe he's gross, he's not killing anyone, he's probably an accountant, off the stage and Michael Alig actually did- killed someone and then bragged about it, tongue in cheek. So but meeting him, he passed away last December, um, uh, on Christmas actually, Dec- uh, Christmas, uh, 20, uh, uh, 20. Um, he was clearly a sociopath, and I'd never met a sociopath before. Now, a lot of times we'll read these, like you'll take a BuzzFeed quiz, like, "Are you a sociopath?" And it's like, "Oh, my feelings weren't hurt when I was mean to someone." It's not a thin line between, like,... me and you and him, it's a thick, thick line. Because when you're talking to someone like that, at least in this specific case, he was being very friendly. He wasn't... And it's not like he was gonna kill anyone or is a threat to me. Um, but there is that sense like something's really off here. And he was talking to me about how after he had killed Angel, he would just talk about it because he felt so much guilt, he just wanted to get caught. It's like, no, no, no. You... What he was describing wasn't guilt. He was describing just he didn't like the, um, the knife over his head, like waiting to get caught. I'm like, "You don't even know what guilt is?" So it was kinda like, oh, wow. So, uh, as for Jeffrey Epste-... But the thing is, Michael Alig is in, was in a very low social position.

Lex Fridman 25:06 Mm-hmm.

Michael Malice 25:06 And the thing is when someone is powerful, very high status, and they do something, we are as kinda hierarchical animals. We kinda defer to their norms.

Lex Fridman 25:19 Yeah.

Michael Malice 25:19 So if you're at a party, with let's suppose, uh, either of us, and it's like a Jeffrey Epstein party, and everyone at the party is doing some sort of weird drug we've never heard of, we wouldn't really feel comfortable judging them, because like their norms kind of become the norm for that space. Um, the lesson for me about Jeffrey Epstein, uh, there's a sep-... There's a lot of them, because I think this, the... To me, the, the biggest moment was the Amy Robach situation. Amy Robach was caught on a hot mic saying that they had all the goods on him, they had all the names, and that Buckingham Palace called them. They killed the story 'cause they weren't gonna get a Meghan Markle interview out of it. So that, the willingness of those in power to do the wrong thing for the flimsiest pretext what I think was a big important lesson. Also, the fact that no one at ABC had any consequences for this. In fact, the only person who got in trouble for all this was someone who used to work at ABC, went to, I believe, CBS, and they got fired from CBS, because apparently they had accessed the footage at one point, even though they weren't the ones who had leaked it. Um, so whistleblowers are like the only... Like for example, the case when, um, uh, uh, Eric Garner, the guy who was selling loosey cigarettes in New York City, uh, who was arrested. He had a heart attack or whatever it was on the way to jail. He died. The only pers-... So the, the cops had a situation there 'cause... The only person who had, got in trouble 'cause of that was the guy filming it. Like he went to jail. So I think there i- if there's a lesson in terms of we ha-... Look at Julian Assange, right? There's a huge amount of power exercised by elites to make sure that what is done in the cover of darkness remains in the cover of darkness. And also, Kevin McCarthy, who is currently the House Minority Leader, leader of the Republicans, he wrote a letter to ABC News like, "You had this guy. You, maybe you couldn't call in the authorities, but you could have leaked it to somebody. Why hasn't anything come forward?" Nothing happened as a result of this. We also have to keep in mind that the longest serving Republican Speaker of the House in history, Dennis Hastert, went to jail 'cause of things related to, to pedophilia and things like that. So as Russians, and this is something I think you and I have mentioned before, uh, Americans are very naive often, decreasingly so about the nature of evil. They think an evil person is someone who's like getting kickbacks, um, or, you know, like Qu- the Cuomos are c- colluding, something like that. I, I would hardly even call that evil. Um, no, no, this is the sort of things that are so depraved that you would never think about it in a million years in your own home. You don't think in these terms. And, and I think they get off on doing things that if the average person heard about it, the average person would be shocked 'cause that gives them this sense of, "We're above them. We're different from them. The rules don't apply to us."

Lex Fridman 28:13 There's a lot to say here. So one is the norm thing you said at a party. It's really interesting for an NRcast to say that.

Michael Malice 28:19 (laughs) Well, no, it's, it's-

Lex Fridman 28:21 No. Well, I know, I know, I know. I- so I'm not... Sorry, this, that came off as criticism. I meant it as harsh criticism.

Michael Malice 28:27 (laughs) .

Lex Fridman 28:28 (laughs) No, I, I think about that a lot, like, um, as, uh, the, you know, I found myself in situations where I'm invited, uh, to these kinds of parties where people have nice things, and I find it deeply uncomfortable for that reason. I, I, I don't want to be sort of an activist that goes in and ruins a party. That's, that's a, I think that's, uh, that's not the courageous act. Neither is it courageous when everyone's doing some weird drug that you mentioned to join in, I think. Uh, courageous is more being your s- remaining yourself, sticking to your principles calmly in that room where everybody is doing the drug, and just don't do the drug.

Michael Malice 29:12 Yeah, sure.

Lex Fridman 29:13 Don't make a scene about it, but also don't, don't do it. And I think that little act of courage over time is the way you resist, Jeffrey Epstein. That, exactly the thing you said is, is probably the situation where charisma works. So one charismatic person gets the little crowd going, and the crowd is everybody sort of, uh, uh, establishes a norm at the little crowd. And yes, there could be some dynamics that allow that norm to be established, like you said, like rich and powerful people might enjoy being rich and powerful and better than everybody else kinda, kind of thing. But like I, es- especially for scientists, I, I thought they should have integrity and courage enough to, to see through that. Not again as an activist, like so you can tweet about it how courageous you are, but just literally see there's something off here. There's something off here-

Michael Malice 30:09 There is something-

Lex Fridman 30:09 ... and I'm not going to participate in it.

Michael Malice 30:11 I'm, I'm gonna defend these scientists because something off, first of all-

Lex Fridman 30:15 You're always defending academia. It's disgusting.

Michael Malice 30:17 It's my favorite thing. I think that, first of all, and this is gonna sound like a joke and it's not, I bet you...... 90% of those MIT scientists are on the spectrum, so everyone they're gonna meet is gonna be a little off, right? So I'm sure part of their brain's like, "Okay, this person's weird. This is just them being on the spectrum."

Lex Fridman 30:34 Like the light sp- (laughs) spectrum. I couldn't even finish the joke. Okay, go ahead. (laughing)

Michael Malice 30:39 Number two is, off, we, w- we tend to... There's this poem, I forget who wrote it, it was, uh, like Nick Cave or something, and it was describing, um, like, I think it was Goebbels, hair, normal, height, normal, weight, normal. What do you expect? Horns, right? So when you meet someone you think, "Something's off," there's gonna be a bell curve of what that could be, right? It could be that they're twitchy, uh, or maybe they're completely asocial, and then you have Jeffrey Epstein over here. You're gonna need a lot of evidence to be like, "Oh, I feel something off, therefore this guy's the head of an international, you know, sex-trafficking ring." So yeah, you might be like, "Okay," but at the same time, if they're extent of your relationship is, "This guy is interested in my work. He's gonna fund my work, and I don't have to give him anything in return. He's in- clearly intelligent. He's appreciating it." And being a scientist is a thankless job. Uh, I, I, I know what it's like as an author. When I was writing Dear Reader, the North Korea book, my friends were sick of hearing all these North Korea anecdotes, 'cause at a certain point, it's like, "Okay, we get it. Just save it for the book." And, you know, you gotta be in that lab, you're looking at the springtails, whatever it is you're looking at. No one knows what a springtail is.

Lex Fridman 31:48 Yeah. I just disagree with you. So th-the, uh, that'd be interesting to draw a distinction between science and writing, because the scientific process itself is fun as fuck. It's, it's, you're solving little puzzles.

Michael Malice 31:59 Sure.

Lex Fridman 32:00 So like, in itself, it's fun. So like, y- it's rewarding. Like, the reason you go into, uh, science is you can continue, really without a boss, to continue having fun and solving puzzles. That's, that's literally... So like, u- unless you become cynical and tired of the whole thing. So the, the people, the administration, or when you're running a large lab, and you, what you get sick of is the emails and the meetings and all that kinda stuff. The actual act of being in the lab is still fun as fuck, i- if you allow it to be. Writing, I feel like, is, there's more priority to publishing. Like, would you enjoy it, The Tree Falling in the Forest? Would you still enjoy any of the books you've written if they never got published?

Michael Malice 32:47 Not to the same extent, not even close.

Lex Fridman 32:49 Right.

Michael Malice 32:49 Right.

Lex Fridman 32:49 I think that the thing about science, it's almost like you get a peek into the mysterious.

Michael Malice 32:54 Yeah, but this is... Okay, s- let me, this is where I'm coming from.

Lex Fridman 32:57 Mm-hmm.

Michael Malice 32:58 Since moving to Austin, I've bought 150, over 150 plants.

Lex Fridman 33:03 I like how you're doing the, the politician thing. (laughs)

Michael Malice 33:05 (laughs) Look. Le- le- let me-

Lex Fridman 33:06 Like what Bill Clinton would do.

Michael Malice 33:06 Let me be clear. Let me be clear.

Lex Fridman 33:07 (laughs)

Michael Malice 33:08 All right? It's not... (laughs) If-

Lex Fridman 33:10 Oh, you, you are running in 2024. This is very interesting. (laughs)

Michael Malice 33:15 I bought 150 succulents for my house. They're, they're thriving here in Austin as they wouldn't have in Brooklyn.

Lex Fridman 33:19 You have a great video about it. People should check that out.

Michael Malice 33:20 Yeah, one of those plants I have is the photo I took on my Instagram, there's no other photos on the whole internet. None of my friends care.

Lex Fridman 33:27 (laughs)

Michael Malice 33:28 Or they care like ostensibly, but like, "Oh, that's cool." Like, I have a better plant collection in my house than like almost any botanical g- succulent collection than any botanical garden in America, other than probably The Huntington, and no one cares.

Lex Fridman 33:39 This is what ego looks like, by the way.

Michael Malice 33:41 How's it... I, I can prove it to you.

Lex Fridman 33:43 No, I know, but you don't have to rub it in.

Michael Malice 33:45 Well, it, they, they have a big budget. I don't. So if I-

Lex Fridman 33:47 Okay.

Michael Malice 33:48 ... can put it together, they should be able to.

Lex Fridman 33:49 All right.

Michael Malice 33:50 So I can only imagine that a scientist who studied, you know, those spiders that look like ants, like at a cer- like, h- oh, and this species does this with the gender dimorphism. Their friends are only gonna care so much, so if you meet someone who has a lot of money who now cares about ant spiders, it's gonna be exciting to you.

Lex Fridman 34:10 Yeah, it would be very exciting. But I, I just wanted to push back on the... (sighs) I think the act itself should be the biggest reward. I think you're always safe. We're talking about goodness being a safe default. I think a s- a good default for, for plants and for writing and for science is to just enjoying the act even if nobody cares, because-

Michael Malice 34:34 Okay, this is where, this... Okay, now I'm even, now I'm wondering why I'm pushing back so hard, and I realized what it was.

Lex Fridman 34:39 Mm-hmm.

Michael Malice 34:40 Because I've, I've made this point several times, and I'm glad I can make it again. There's this window of time that happened in my life, and I know it happens to a lot of people, when you're in your like 24 to 27, 28, right? So 21 to 24, like you still have your friends from college, so on and so forth, right? But then it's kinda like a, a poker game, and, you know, every so often, people cash out. They're like, "I'm out. I'm out." They get married. They get a job. They move, and if you are someone who is a young, ambitious creative, that window is a very rough one, because you're doing the right thing, right? And you're not being a, you know, a drug addict. You're not being a philanderer. Not that those things are wrong, but just like you're playing by the rules. You're creating your stuff, what you wanna be known for, contribution you wanna make for the world, and no one cares, and it gets very lonely. And there is this em- very emotional disconnect about, "How is it that I'm creating and I'm working hard and I'm making something happen, and it's just radio silence?" So that... I don't think it's that easy when you're... Uh, you're, you're the scientist, not me. When you don't have any kind of external validation. Humans only have so much fuel.

Lex Fridman 35:51 Nothing worth having is easy, Michael. By the way, yesterday, talked on the phone with a person who said he was deeply moved the first time you mentioned this, uh, age group of 24 to 27.

Michael Malice 36:03 Yes.

Lex Fridman 36:03 He's like, he, he's 26, he said, and, uh, he feels the full responsibility of that and the excite... So he left his, like, um, corporate typey job to pursue something that he's really passionate about and that, that, that was, like you were an inspiration to him, which I, I was deeply saddened by that.

Michael Malice 36:23 I also inspired Michael Alex, so.

Lex Fridman 36:26 (laughs) The- the (laughs) -

Michael Malice 36:28 (laughs)

Lex Fridman 36:28 ... the- the amount of mass murder, um, those that were inspired by you will eventually, uh, lead to is- is, uh, truly horrifying.

Lex Fridman 36:36 What were- were we talking about? So Jeffrey Ep- Oh, one thing I wanted to ask you. So let's put scientists aside. What about like, uh, world leaders? Uh, Bill Clinton, your favorite person. Wh- why would he fly with Jeffrey Epstein? Wh- why would he interact with that guy?

Michael Malice 36:57 I mean, don't you think that that's kind of the deal? That I'm the president and I get big and powerful people flying me around their jets, and that's a symbiotic relationship?

Lex Fridman 37:09 Yeah. But don't you also have a good BS detector? Like the- the- don't you have a good detector for people who just want to be in your presence? Like, I already understand that there's people like this out there. Like there's people that kinda want to use me for stuff. And-

Michael Malice 37:28 You mean Tim Dillon.

Lex Fridman 37:29 Tim Dillon.

Michael Malice 37:31 (laughs)

Lex Fridman 37:33 Um, (laughs) . Uh, I love that guy. You guys met?

Michael Malice 37:37 We haven't met yet here.

Lex Fridman 37:38 We haven't met. Okay. Wow.

Michael Malice 37:39 Yeah. We met before in New York, but we had not since I moved here.

Lex Fridman 37:42 Yeah. So you should be able to detect that tho- there's those people and there's the people that have kindness in their heart, even if they can benefit from the interaction with you. But they have like... They're good human beings. And I feel like you want to... You run into a lot of trouble if you surround yourself or have any people that are manipulative like that.

Michael Malice 37:59 But I think you're giving a bad example 'cause like let's look at Clinton and let's look at Obama, right?

Lex Fridman 38:04 Yeah.

Michael Malice 38:05 So Obama, even though their politics are very close, I'd say in many ways, Obama is apparent. We don't know. I don't know either of them. But to me it seems very apparent that he's, uh, very similar behind closed doors as in front of the camera.

Lex Fridman 38:17 Yeah, yeah. He's- he's Barack to me.

Michael Malice 38:19 Okay, yeah.

Lex Fridman 38:19 Like yeah, yeah. We're... He's good.

Michael Malice 38:21 Yeah. Clinton seems very clearly to be much more of a performer. He's in front of the camera, so he puts on a role, but behind the cameras, he- he very much has a temper. He's known for that. He's much more of a lech. Um-

Lex Fridman 38:34 What's that?

Michael Malice 38:35 A pervert.

Lex Fridman 38:36 Oh, lech with an E?

Michael Malice 38:38 L-E-T-C-H. Yeah.

Lex Fridman 38:39 Oh cool.

Michael Malice 38:39 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 38:40 Lech.

Michael Malice 38:40 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 38:40 Is that like a... That's a cool term. So it's... I can use that on the internet?

Michael Malice 38:44 You could.

Lex Fridman 38:44 Like, "You're a lech."

Michael Malice 38:45 Yeah. You could use it on the internet.

Lex Fridman 38:46 (laughs) You're a dirty lech.

Michael Malice 38:48 Well, it's a... Dirty is implied. Um-

Lex Fridman 38:50 Oh, so it's... Okay.

Michael Malice 38:51 Yeah. So-

Lex Fridman 38:52 It's being redundant.

Michael Malice 38:53 Yeah, um-

Lex Fridman 38:54 It just feels like it needs an adjective to give it more power.

Michael Malice 38:57 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 38:57 Anywa- I'm sorry. So, uh, Clinton is a lech.

Michael Malice 38:59 Right. So you can see how there's people who want to meet, you know, the surface Bill Clinton, and I'm sure that gets old for him because he has to be on. But then there's the good old boys where he could be a pervert, and this guy is like, "Yeah- yeah, I know what it's like." And then he feels like he's himself. But I'm all- we're all speculating. W- I mean, I don't know what Bill Clinton is like, what- what was in it for him. He certainly had- could afford p- private jets if he wanted to. Uh, there's no shortage of people who want to fly around the world to give speeches, you know, at, you know-

Lex Fridman 39:29 But can't- can't he satisfy the lech within, uh, in- without hanging out with the Jeffrey Epsteins of the world? Like can't he get... I mean, this is the Monica Lewinsky question to me. I'm- I'm confused by all of this. Can't he get, uh, women in a legitimate way of like not- not using his power, not hanging out with these shady r- rich people, but just like having a normal mistress like JFK had? (laughs)

Michael Malice 39:57 Well, JFK had a lot.

Lex Fridman 39:59 I know. I understand that, but in a normal way or- or I don't- I don't know enough about JFK, but like...

Michael Malice 40:03 I- I- I- I don't understand the Clinton psychology. First of all, the fact that you're hooking up with someone who's close to your daughter's age, to me, I think wa- is inherently disturbing. But she's an adult, so okay, that's not that, that, uh, you know, beyond the pale. But also the idea that, oh, if I don't physically fornicate with you, it's not cheating. Like that, whatever you tell yourself, or like if I don't ejaculate, it's not cheating. Like these rules that-

Lex Fridman 40:34 And maybe it leads to some kind of slippery slope. Like you start not having the rules of-

Michael Malice 40:39 But who are you fooling? I mean, if you told your wife like, "Listen, it wasn't cheating. She only, you know, performed on me," you're gonna say this with a straight face? Like do you... At- at- at a certain point when something is so brazen, you wonder if the person even has to believe it because who are you fooling?

Lex Fridman 40:56 But like we started this- this conversation with there is a line between young women older than 18 and, um, young teens, like 12, 13, kids.

Michael Malice 41:07 Have you ever... When's the last... Oh, 'cause you're at MIT. I was hanging out with, uh, uh, Blaire White, uh, and she had a couple of- of fans with her- of hers, and they were like 22, 23. And they were like children to me.

Lex Fridman 41:21 Yeah.

Michael Malice 41:21 Like I'm like... To- to me as someone who is in his late 60s, to look at these people as adults, like they look completely like kids.

Lex Fridman 41:31 Mm-hmm.

Michael Malice 41:32 So that-

Lex Fridman 41:33 Now of course, there's exceptions. Like I've interacted with a young 20- 20-year-olds that are like, "You're way more mature than I'll ever be." Like the wisdom that comes out of them is- is quite fascinating.

Michael Malice 41:45 I just meant visually.

Lex Fridman 41:46 Oh.

Michael Malice 41:47 The- the- the energy and the way they look, they looked so young to me-

Lex Fridman 41:51 Yeah.

Michael Malice 41:51 ... and the- the way they carry themselves. It was... The- the idea that my instinct was let's tuck you in and read you a bedtime story-

Lex Fridman 42:00 Right.

Michael Malice 42:00 ... not let me like touch you or something like that. It was just like... I... Like it was just wouldn't enter my head. So there's... But the thing is, is it possible that in order to want to be the president, you have to be a crazy person?

Lex Fridman 42:12 Mm. That you have some kind of weird view on power. It could be a power thing too.

Michael Malice 42:18 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 42:19 Like- like you can get away with stuff.

Michael Malice 42:21 Like if I was Clinton's age, nothing about Monica Lewinsky to me would be...... attractive, and also I would just feel bad for her 'cause I know she's gonna catch feelings. And it's kinda like-

Lex Fridman 42:33 Catch feelings? Yeah, it's true. This is very true.

Michael Malice 42:34 And it's, and it's just like, "Why would I do this to this kid?"

Lex Fridman 42:37 Yeah.

Michael Malice 42:37 For what? Just 'cause I want to get some, like, momentary pleasure? Come on.

Lex Fridman 42:41 Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. I'm sure she looked, uh, gorgeous to him in the moment. (inhales deeply) Well, let me ask,

Lex Fridman 42:49 uh, we, we started talking about beauty, uh, who are you wearing?

Michael Malice 42:53 (laughs)

Lex Fridman 42:56 (laughs) So as a model, uh, under, you usually have, don't have a shirt on when you're modeling. (laughs) So it's nice to see you, uh, dressed up today, um. (laughs) . Nice and warm.

Michael Malice 43:10 This is because, so for those who don't know, for Russians, don't celebrate Christmas. Obviously with the Soviet Union, Christmas was illegal.

Lex Fridman 43:17 No Thanksgiving, basically no major holidays where everyone gets together. This is the one holiday.

Michael Malice 43:23 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 43:23 New Year's.

Michael Malice 43:24 New Year's. No, they call it-

Lex Fridman 43:25 It's the one holiday.

Michael Malice 43:25 And instead of-

Lex Fridman 43:26 Oh.

Michael Malice 43:26 ... I remember as a kid, instead of Santa Claus, we have Ded Moroz, who's the same thing basically.

Lex Fridman 43:31 It's like Android and iPhone. It's, it's like a cheap version-

Michael Malice 43:33 Yeah, yeah.

Lex Fridman 43:34 ... of s- of Christmas.

Michael Malice 43:34 He's got this girl with him, she's like Snow White or whatever. And Russian kids, they go to sleep on December 31st, and they wake up January, they have a present under their pillow.

Lex Fridman 43:43 Mm-hmm.

Michael Malice 43:43 Um, and I remember as a kid this happened once, and it just blew my mind. You know what I mean? It's just like, I went to bed, my dad's like, "Oh, you know, you're gonna have... Ded Moroz is gonna bring you a present if you've been a good kid." I'm like, "I, I think I was a good kid." (laughs) Like, but you don't even remember a year of your life when you're four.

Lex Fridman 43:59 Yeah.

Michael Malice 43:59 Uh, you remember like to-

Lex Fridman 44:00 But you remember those moments.

Michael Malice 44:01 Yeah, and then I woke up and there was a present under my pillow, and I'm, I was, it just blew my mind. And that building is still there, 1461 Shore Parkway in Brooklyn. So, um, and it w- it's just all so funny, like, uh, wh- what I really like about kids, you know, being an uncle now, is kid logic. Because they're, have very little bit (laughs) of data, but they're using logic to m- make sense of it, and sometimes it gives them t- the completely wrong conclusions for the completely right reasons.

Lex Fridman 44:29 Mm-hmm.

Michael Malice 44:30 I remember, you know, I, I, my bedroom as a kid was right off the kitchen, and I'd be scared of the dark a little bit, so they'd leave the light on in the kitchen while I went to sleep. And at the same time, my parents had told me, "You don't leave the lights on in the house, it costs money, wastes electricity," right? So I would be worried 'cause I'm like, "Oh my god, my parents leave the lights on in the kitchen all night, (laughs) and now it's costing them so much money."

Lex Fridman 44:55 Mm-hmm.

Michael Malice 44:55 Not realizing that, you know, five minutes after I'm out, obviously they're turning the lights off. But-

Lex Fridman 44:59 (laughs) .

Michael Malice 44:59 ... like in my kid logic, uh, this was a concern of mine.

Lex Fridman 45:02 Yeah, and, and memories work that same way. I have a collection of memories that are stitched together logically somehow, but they, they also don't really make sense. There's a, there's a few defining things. So I, I grew up in, in Russia and experienced a lot in, uh, New Year's in Russia. There's a, there's, um, a lot of incredible things about that tradition that just warms my heart. So one, as a kid, you mentioned these kind of s- stories, that's the one night of the year that kids are allowed to be adults in the following way. Like, you, uh, in, in, in kid logic.

Michael Malice 45:37 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 45:37 You're allowed to stay up all night.

Michael Malice 45:38 Oh yeah? Okay.

Lex Fridman 45:40 Those, uh, as late as you want, which actually ends up being you're not used to it, so you-

Michael Malice 45:43 11. (laughs) Right? You're out. (laughs)

Lex Fridman 45:46 You crash. But no, you get to, uh, you know, 2:00, 3:00, 4:00 at night, you stay up, and what you get to witness is almost like Alice in Wonderland goes into this world.

Michael Malice 45:56 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 45:56 You get to witness what is the adult world really like. Now obviously, it's not an actual adult world-

Michael Malice 46:03 A lot of drinking and fighting. (laughs)

Lex Fridman 46:03 Uh, merriment, like, like laughing-

Michael Malice 46:06 Oh yeah.

Lex Fridman 46:06 ... fighting, arguing, but also like i- i- in our case, like singing and, uh, like, yeah, arguing and, like, philosophical stuff. But also, like, um, if I may... How do I, how would I describe it? This is also probably a little bit Russian culture, but, like, flirtation in all of its forms. Meaning, like, men and women just being like-

Michael Malice 46:30 Oh yeah.

Lex Fridman 46:30 ... 'cause they dress up.

Michael Malice 46:31 Yeah, yeah.

Lex Fridman 46:31 It's like, it's, uh, it's joy, it's like you get to show off, like, dresses, whatever you got, you show it off, this is fun. And then, um, uh, men too just, w- like friends laughing, and like arguing, just showing off the best they got, with delicious food obviously. That, there's a Thanksgiving element there.

Michael Malice 46:50 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 46:51 Like, uh, where there's just so many, just you bring out all the traditional stuff. Uh, the, the, uh, I think we have salad, just everything. Just the full thing with the desserts, and obviously the vodka, a lot of vodka. And at the time, so this is the Soviet Union, like the biggest stuff, and this is so sad that these are the things I remember, is like, uh, Coca-Cola.

Michael Malice 47:16 Oh yeah.

Lex Fridman 47:16 Like American, like th- that, uh, I would probably kill somebody for a Dr. Pepper. (laughs)

Michael Malice 47:22 Yes, yeah.

Lex Fridman 47:22 It's so fascinating that, um, you take it for granted sort of the results of capitalist society, the mat- the material things that are created, but that was the ultimate happiness is to experience this new thing, sugar. I don't know, um-

Michael Malice 47:41 Do you know there's like a-

Lex Fridman 47:42 ... under scarcity you would just-

Michael Malice 47:43 ... there's like Communist-

Lex Fridman 47:44 ... love-

Michael Malice 47:44 ... Coca-Cola in Czech Republic?

Lex Fridman 47:46 (laughs)

Michael Malice 47:46 So basically they tried to rip off Coke-

Lex Fridman 47:49 (laughs) yeah.

Michael Malice 47:49 ... and it's just like, (laughs) like they just threw whatever they could together, and it was a very poor knockoff as you can imagine. I forget what it's called, and all the Czech people right now are getting very angry at me 'cause I can't think of it. But they have it now, and the slogan is "Good or weird?" (laughs)

Lex Fridman 48:05 (laughs)

Michael Malice 48:05 Um, (laughs) so it's like this, so they kind of reclaim-

Lex Fridman 48:08 Wow.

Michael Malice 48:08 ... this kind of hipster soda, yeah.

Lex Fridman 48:09 Oh, that's awesome. It's almost like a parody in itself.

Michael Malice 48:11 Right, yeah.

Lex Fridman 48:12 But I think the thing I really remember is the comradery. Like the love for each other, and neighbors too. Like, um, like you and I are neighbors now, we don't see each other that often. I hope that changes, but a lot of it is also me, I'm just a deep introvert.

Michael Malice 48:33 You're also the hardest working person I know.

Lex Fridman 48:35 Y- yeah, so it's time but, you know, like, it's not like I'll go in middle of the night at like 4:00 AM and go to 7-Eleven and just sit there s- sipping a Slurpee for an hour thinking about life. So it's not like I'm al- (laughs) al- always working. Yeah, I don't know, what I mean is, like, you get to meet your neighbors and you get to experience their, uh, their highs and their lows and you get to bitch about life, about government, about corruption, about the unfairness of life together.

Michael Malice 49:05 Well, it's also, I think, what people don't appreciate as Americans is it's very rare in Russia to have a safe space.

Lex Fridman 49:11 Yeah.

Michael Malice 49:12 So you know that, that January 1st, no one's gonna snitch on you, you know, they're not gonna be informants probably so you can vent and, and, you know, that's the thing w- with people in totalitarian countries, you have to have the public-facing persona and then behind closed doors it's

Michael Malice 49:29 very different.

Lex Fridman 49:29 It all comes out. And I, I also remember the arguments and I've, I've been, uh, going on, um, Clubhouse recently into Russian rooms just to pr-

Michael Malice 49:38 Oh, Jesus.

Lex Fridman 49:38 Well, just to practice Russian and, uh, they, it's so beautiful to watch. I mean, Clubhouse is a very specific collection of Russian people, maybe it's a little bit political but, and they're a little bit older, um, and it's interesting to watch how much they love to argue, like they love-

Michael Malice 49:58 Oh, Russia, Russians love to argue. Yeah.

Lex Fridman 49:59 And so like, it, it would be literally, um, it's, you could think of it as a nonlinear dynamical system, okay, from an engineering perspective. It, whenever any positive topic comes up, it's, you could, you could feel the skepticism and then wait a minute, this is not good.

Michael Malice 50:17 Yeah. Yeah.

Lex Fridman 50:17 And they'll start like, uh, perturbing it until you're like, uh, th- they'll find some way to say it like, "Come on now, that is the dumbest thing I've ever heard." And then it goes back into argument. It's so fun to watch because, uh, in one sense you could see it as negative, in another you could see it as free to express yourself because it feels like you can solve a lot of problems by allowing yourself to just, uh, be emotional and b- both, both emotional and say hard truth and all those kinds of things without like, um, without com- patting yourself on the back about it. Uh, but also it just, sort of those Russian rooms make me realize how constrained American speech is, how careful people are in the way they express it, even the Michael Morellis in the world. You're, you're constantly being like nuanced. (laughs) There they just say crazy shit.

Michael Malice 51:13 Oh yeah, oh yeah.

Lex Fridman 51:13 And then they correct themselves and make fun of themselves and they completely shift opinions a minute later and it's, it's chaos.

Michael Malice 51:20 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 51:21 And it's, I mean, it's, it's beautiful cha- so I, I love that that culture is pre- it's funny given the current regime in Russia, like how that's coupled with how people are talking and, um, yeah, I don't know, and I have those m- memories of childhood of, uh, of friends that I had of just having that true freedom of talking and somehow that leads to, uh, deep bonds together. Uh, when, when the life, when you're poor, when life is, uh, has a lot of elements that are unfair, when the government is corrupt, there's sort of, it's just, um, especially in the Soviet Union, there's uncertainty about the future, all of it, you just get closer together like penguins huddling together in the cold, like that March of the Penguins movie, that I don't know, uh, the, the friends I've gotten there, like, I get e- emotional every time I kind of th- think about those friends 'cause it was so close. That friendship was so fucking close.

Michael Malice 52:19 But I just really hate the, the Russian cynicism.

Lex Fridman 52:22 I know you do and I actually disagree with you about it. You see it as cynicism, I see it as, um, waves on top of the water, like surface cynicism and the depths as I see the beauty of the Russian soul. So we, like, yes, that cynicism can negatively affect a lot of people like you, yeah I think you've talked about like as a parent, like, uh, being cynical about the world-

Michael Malice 52:47 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 52:47 ... and then you have, uh, uh, dire negative consequences on your children, they become cynical, they don't ever take big risks or take on bold things and I have those arguments, um, because the cynicism is, is exhausting, it's destructive-

Michael Malice 52:59 Yes.

Lex Fridman 53:00 ... it's an- anti-creative. But so, and, and their perspective is this is what the Russian folks would say, "Well yes, that's our role." Like, being cynical is being reasonable about the world, is being a realist.

Michael Malice 53:12 But it's not, it's complete unreasonable, it's a complete lie.

Lex Fridman 53:16 No, I know but their argument is yes but we're, we're giving you this force and it's your job to resist against it. So it's a test.

Michael Malice 53:25 I love, I, I love the idea that if you're gonna be creative and innovative you don't have enough up against you.

Lex Fridman 53:30 Yeah, exactly. This is exactly it but-

Michael Malice 53:32 Like, oh I don't, I don't, it's not hard enough already that I want to be an author and now you got to be like, "Well what are, let, let me just put some fire ants on top of it."

Lex Fridman 53:38 So I, I just want to separate, I agree with you that the cynicism is, is bad and destructive but the idea that life is suffering and thinking from that as a first principle I think there's a lot of beauty to be discovered through that. So there's a cynicism and then there's-

Michael Malice 53:59 Horrible message, uh, life is suffering?

Lex Fridman 54:04 No, not... Well yeah, I mean, Camus, um-

Michael Malice 54:07 Camus doesn't think that.

Lex Fridman 54:10 The, well now we're going into, uh, definitions of suffering then because absurd, what, see-

Michael Malice 54:17 Life is absurd and life is suffering are not even close to the same concept.

Lex Fridman 54:21 Well then you're just defining the terms differently so you-

Michael Malice 54:23 Well that's 'cause they're different terms.

Lex Fridman 54:25 Well, th- well, so is love and beauty but let's, so let's define term-

Michael Malice 54:28 If you... (laughs)

Lex Fridman 54:28 Okay.

Michael Malice 54:28 Wait you're saying if your baby's in the crib like with a fever, you're like, "Oh that's absurd." No, it's the kid's suffering, it's not the same.

Lex Fridman 54:34 So yes, starvation, see you've been for the white pill researching a lot of actual specifically defined suffer-

Michael Malice 54:41 ... sure.

Lex Fridman 54:41 So-

Michael Malice 54:42 But also a lot of, of wonderful things.

Lex Fridman 54:45 Right. Yeah, yeah. But the, the word suffering can encompass more than just specifically starving. And it could, the, the, it can encompass, like a lot of the philosophers, uh, talk about, it encompassed like philosophical suffering, the fact that there isn't, if, if you're not careful, life will, can appear meaningless. You could fall into nihilistic view. Like it, it, it's, it's, it's difficult to have the responsibility of freedom to act in this world because you can fuck up in so many different ways. And then, uh, life is seemingly unfair in a s- in a sense that good things happen for no apparent reason and terrible things happen for no apparent-

Michael Malice 55:27 Absolutely.

Lex Fridman 55:28 Like wha- you know, it's the old religious question of why does evil, uh, happen in the world, or what, w- why do terrible things happen in the world, it says that-

Michael Malice 55:35 There's this book called Six Word Memoirs, right, where all these different personalities were-

Lex Fridman 55:39 Those are awesome.

Michael Malice 55:40 Were, were you in it?

Lex Fridman 55:41 No.

Michael Malice 55:41 I'm in it with... So you had to basically write your autobiography in six words.

Lex Fridman 55:45 In six words.

Michael Malice 55:45 And mine was, "Good things happen to bad people." (laughs)

Lex Fridman 55:49 (laughs) You see, there you go, there's humor.

Michael Malice 55:51 Yes.

Lex Fridman 55:51 That's your way of dealing with the suffering of what you don't like.

Michael Malice 55:53 But I don't think life is inherently... If life was suffering, we wouldn't be able to have h- h- happiness.

Lex Fridman 55:58 No. Out of suffering, h- happiness is born. So like it's, it's the ups and downs of life. And what it means, like...

Michael Malice 56:05 I don't th- this, I dis, I don't agree at all that you need to suffer in order to be happy. I agree you have to work hard, but that's not the same thing.

Lex Fridman 56:15 Yeah. All right. So the way I'm using suffering, and I think a lot of them use suffering, is the way you use, like, gravity. So in, in order for the rollercoaster to work, you need gravity. There needs to be a force that bring you down.

Michael Malice 56:27 Sure.

Lex Fridman 56:27 In that same way, there's like y- you have to resist the natural pull of nature that wants to destroy you.

Michael Malice 56:38 N- no. Nature wants you to... Nature's indifferent, but we have the capacity, 'cause we're blessed with minds, and we're blessed with friends-

Lex Fridman 56:49 Yeah, to transcend nature.

Michael Malice 56:50 Yes.

Lex Fridman 56:50 Yeah. No, I know, but I, I think it's a, it's a word that captures something about life, that there's no reason to it, that is absurd. I think, to me, oftentimes the way I think about the word suffering is synonymous with absurdity.

Michael Malice 57:08 This is not suffering. But this is absurd.

Lex Fridman 57:12 I just noticed there's a box with a, with a big bow on it next to you. What's in the box, Michael?

Michael Malice 57:18 It's your present. So it's your present for New Year's.

Lex Fridman 57:21 Can, uh, c- can we open it?

Michael Malice 57:22 Yeah, sure.

Lex Fridman 57:25 What's in the box?

Michael Malice 57:26 It's gonna take me-

Lex Fridman 57:27 And you brought up suffering. This is gonna be very unpleasant.

Michael Malice 57:29 Here you go. I packed it myself. Yeah, there's a whole process in there. So there's three presents in there.

Lex Fridman 57:41 Lex, I'll read the card first.

Michael Malice 57:43 Okay.

Lex Fridman 57:49 Something about opening presents, like tearing stuff, makes me feel like... 'cause like I just tore this sheet of paper.

Michael Malice 57:56 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 57:56 So it'll never be the same again.

Michael Malice 57:59 (laughs) It's entropy.

Lex Fridman 58:00 It's ent- it's entropy. Time is... "You've got a powerful voice. You've got a powerful voice. To Lex, thank you..." Maybe I should read the other card first. "You've got a powerful voice. Listening to what you have to say always puts me in a hopeful place." I feel like this is building up to something. "You show me how change can happen when you face the world with pride, confidence, and a voice that can't be silenced. Keep speaking up. The world is listening."

Michael Malice 58:31 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 58:33 There's no cynicism in this card.

Michael Malice 58:35 No. This is about, this is New Year's. This is all about hope and joy.

Lex Fridman 58:39 Love. (laughs)

Michael Malice 58:39 What?

Lex Fridman 58:39 "To Lex," I'm seeing the binary.

Michael Malice 58:41 Oh.

Lex Fridman 58:41 "To Lex, thank you for setting the path for me to move to Austin. 01001001011011000110110101. Michael Malice."

Michael Malice 58:58 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 59:00 Brings tears to my eyes. (laughs) Thank you, brother.

Michael Malice 59:03 My pleasure.

Lex Fridman 59:06 Let's get to the present.

Michael Malice 59:08 (laughs) Okay.

Lex Fridman 59:11 It's a, it's a PC box. This is very promising. It better not be sex toys.

Michael Malice 59:17 There's no.

Lex Fridman 59:17 I swear to God.

Michael Malice 59:17 There's nothing. This is all, there's nothing inappropriate-

Lex Fridman 59:20 All right.

Michael Malice 59:20 ... at all. Why would I... (laughs)

Lex Fridman 59:22 Why would sex toys be inappropriate?

Michael Malice 59:24 (laughs) Because you're-

Lex Fridman 59:25 That's sex positive.

Michael Malice 59:25 (laughs) Because you're a virgin. (laughs)

Lex Fridman 59:29 (laughs) Yeah, bring a knife to a party. How clever is it to put it in a PC box?

Michael Malice 59:38 Well, I had it. I just got a new PC. Okay. Yeah, there's also-

Lex Fridman 59:42 Let's do a-

Michael Malice 59:43 ... a can.

Lex Fridman 59:43 Yep.

Michael Malice 59:44 Open the can first.

Lex Fridman 59:45 Open the can. You wrap this yourself?

Michael Malice 59:55 (laughs)

Lex Fridman 59:56 That scared the shit out of me.

Michael Malice 59:57 (laughs)

Lex Fridman 1:00:04 (laughs) Get, get back in the can. That actually stayed in there.

Michael Malice 1:00:08 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 1:00:08 That's magic.

Michael Malice 1:00:09 You just gotta cut the string.

Lex Fridman 1:00:13 No.

Michael Malice 1:00:13 (laughs)

Lex Fridman 1:00:20 You're the most beautiful troll of all.

Michael Malice 1:00:22 I am.

Lex Fridman 1:00:22 I love you so much. This is awesome. (paper rustling)

Michael Malice 1:00:37 Did I, did it not work? Pick it up. Oh, it didn't work.

Lex Fridman 1:00:47 There's a terrifying springy feeling to this thing. (laughs) I don't want to open this.

Michael Malice 1:00:53 (laughs)

Lex Fridman 1:00:54 I need to move stuff aside. (laughs)

Michael Malice 1:00:58 (rustling of box) (laughs)

Lex Fridman 1:01:03 I hate you so much.

Michael Malice 1:01:05 What?

Lex Fridman 1:01:05 What? Oh, is it the other way?

Michael Malice 1:01:10 No. Just pick it up. (rustling)

Lex Fridman 1:01:21 (laughs)

Michael Malice 1:01:28 (rustling of box) (laughs)

Lex Fridman 1:01:29 Can't believe I fell for that.

Michael Malice 1:01:30 (laughs)

Lex Fridman 1:01:31 (laughs) I hate you so much. Wrenches, they're my favorite. I can't believe I fell for that. Okay. And there's box number three.

Michael Malice 1:01:40 It's like a Matryoshka.

Lex Fridman 1:01:42 I can't believe that worked.

Michael Malice 1:01:43 Yeah. (laughs) I wanted the box to open, all these gears to fall out, but you can't get any.

Lex Fridman 1:01:49 You can't get in?

Michael Malice 1:01:50 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 1:01:50 Does that really grind your...

Michael Malice 1:01:52 (laughs) Grind, you know what grinds my gears? (rustling of box)

Lex Fridman 1:01:57 Why am I scared? Okay. This, this... (rustling of box) There's another box. If this leads to my death...

Michael Malice 1:02:15 No, no. This isn't, this is... There's a story behind it. (laughs)

Lex Fridman 1:02:21 I can't believe that worked.

Michael Malice 1:02:22 (laughs)

Lex Fridman 1:02:23 Oh God, that's so good. All right. All right. No springs, no weapons.

Michael Malice 1:02:29 No wrenches. (laughs) (rustling of box) Okay. So let me tell you the story behind that toy.

Lex Fridman 1:02:42 Tonka-

Michael Malice 1:02:43 Gobots.

Lex Fridman 1:02:43 ... Robots that turn into vehicles.

Michael Malice 1:02:46 So when you, there were, when I was a kid, you had Transformers. But for us poor people, you had Gobots, right?

Lex Fridman 1:02:55 Mm-hmm.

Michael Malice 1:02:55 So the Gobots, there were four main characters for the good guys. It was Leader-1, Smallfoot, Turbo, and Scooter. And then what was annoying is, when you had the action figures, you couldn't find the ones that were on the TV show.

Lex Fridman 1:03:08 Mm-hmm.

Michael Malice 1:03:09 And I was a big Gobots fan as a kid. And I went once to the Toys"R"Us in Caesars Bay in Brooklyn with my grandfather. My grandfather was always very lucky. Like, just good things happened to him every so often. And I went there, I remember very vividly, they must have just unpacked, just loaded the shelves, and how they had the shelving, it would be like, like a grid, you know? You'd have like, it was like one, two, three, four, five, five rows and like s- uh, five by five. And I remember it was like two up, and then you have to do, you have to sit by the side and kind of sort through them. And what the Gobots, each package had a picture of different figures.

Lex Fridman 1:03:43 Mm-hmm.

Michael Malice 1:03:43 So the packaging wasn't uniform. And they just had Scooter there.

Lex Fridman 1:03:47 Mm-hmm.

Michael Malice 1:03:47 She was just sitting there. And I was like, "Holy crap." So that feeling when you're a kid and you find that just sitting on the shelf-

Lex Fridman 1:03:56 Scooter's right there.

Michael Malice 1:03:57 ... is just, it was such the symbol of-

Lex Fridman 1:03:58 Wait. Is this that Scooter?

Michael Malice 1:03:59 No. I have it though.

Lex Fridman 1:04:01 Okay.

Michael Malice 1:04:01 But that one is for you. I thought y- if you want to put it next to your other robots.

Lex Fridman 1:04:04 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Michael Malice 1:04:05 You can open it up.

Lex Fridman 1:04:05 I can open her up?

Michael Malice 1:04:06 Yeah, yeah. It's for you. And that way, uh, it's that symbol of joy when you have when you're a kid, when you find-

Lex Fridman 1:04:12 Mm-hmm.

Michael Malice 1:04:12 ... something you really want. I think it just, it's really like, so when people look at it, they'll be like, "Don't be hopeless."

Lex Fridman 1:04:19 I'll open this carefully later.

Michael Malice 1:04:20 No, do it. No, just open it.

Lex Fridman 1:04:21 I should, should do it now?

Michael Malice 1:04:22 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 1:04:22 Okay.

Michael Malice 1:04:22 There's no way to open it carefully. Kids don't open stuff carefully. You rip that crap open.

Lex Fridman 1:04:27 But then you break it, and then you cry. Yeah, that's what happens when you're a kid. (laughs)

Michael Malice 1:04:31 Oh, I never did that.

Lex Fridman 1:04:32 Okay. M- me neither. I never cried, but I never got presents either. (cutting box)

Michael Malice 1:04:40 That is so cool.

Lex Fridman 1:04:41 All right, Scooter. You symbolize childlike discovery.

Michael Malice 1:04:47 Right?

Lex Fridman 1:04:52 The poor, the poor man's robot.

Michael Malice 1:04:55 The poor man's Transformers. I think there's instructions on the back how to transform her.

Lex Fridman 1:05:02 It's a her?

Michael Malice 1:05:03 I only found out as an adult that it was supposed to be a girl. Yeah.

Lex Fridman 1:05:06 Wow, this changes everything.

Michael Malice 1:05:08 (laughs) Thank you, Michael. That's incredible. No, no, give me. Here, let me show you. It looks better when she's transformed.

Lex Fridman 1:05:15 (laughs)

Michael Malice 1:05:17 What?

Lex Fridman 1:05:17 No. There's, there's levels to that statement.

Michael Malice 1:05:19 Oh. Do I have to do like this? Let me see if I remember how to do it 'cause I had this as a kid.

Lex Fridman 1:05:26 Arms out.

Michael Malice 1:05:28 Let go of that. And you, the thing is, these are easy to break, I remember. Is it like this?

Lex Fridman 1:05:35 No. Oh, the, the front comes out.

Michael Malice 1:05:38 Oh, let me see this. Oh, this comes up. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Lex Fridman 1:05:42 Yep.

Michael Malice 1:05:42 So that's that. The arms go...

Lex Fridman 1:05:45 I'm having visions of like baby Michael.

Michael Malice 1:05:49 I, I can't do it. Okay, I can't do it. I can't figure it out.

Lex Fridman 1:05:53 Wow, you're right. She looks so much better transformed.

Michael Malice 1:05:56 (laughs)

Lex Fridman 1:05:56 Oh. All right. I'm gonna follow the instructions in a bit, and I'll leave-

Michael Malice 1:06:02 Yeah, yeah.

Lex Fridman 1:06:03 ... I'm, I'm, I'll leave this failed project of yours. Oh, there's a wheel out.

Michael Malice 1:06:09 Well, I don't like this in between form.

Lex Fridman 1:06:13 Well, this is how it's gonna be.

Michael Malice 1:06:15 Okay.

Lex Fridman 1:06:17 Because we're gonna be accepting of the transformation. That takes time.

Michael Malice 1:06:21 Okay.

Lex Fridman 1:06:23 I got, uh, (rustling) I saw this-

Michael Malice 1:06:29 Oh, it's this.

Lex Fridman 1:06:29 ... little thing when I was walking on Congress, and it says, uh, "Resist." It's a bracelet.

Michael Malice 1:06:34 (laughs)

Lex Fridman 1:06:34 It made me think of you. The reason I got it is 'cause there's two bracelets. So one said, "Lucky fuck."

Michael Malice 1:06:41 (laughs)

Lex Fridman 1:06:41 And the other one said, "Resist." Now, at first I saw resist, and I'm like, and then I saw the lucky fuck, and I realized I'm a lucky fuck to find a, a relevant...

Michael Malice 1:06:52 It makes me think of you. This is very nice.

Lex Fridman 1:06:54 Resist the powerful.

Michael Malice 1:06:56 That's true.

Lex Fridman 1:07:00 I saw this somewhere, the... Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, this has to do with... Uh, in terms of resist, you often bring up the book, uh, The Machiavellians-

Michael Malice 1:07:12 Oh, yeah.

Lex Fridman 1:07:12 ... by James Burnham. And, uh, so I was- I was looking through, I was reading different parts of it. It's- it's a tricky read. It's a little bit, um... But there- there is an e-book Kindle version now that I've been, um, working through. There's- I think there's actually an audiobook too. Anyway...

Michael Malice 1:07:29 Yeah. I just bought... So the Machiavellians is h- is James Burnham's analysis of four, uh, thinkers that he regards as the Machiavellians, it was Gaetano Mosco, Vilfredo Pareto, Georges Sorel, and, um, I- I'm blanking on the... Mosco, Pareto, Sorel, and Geo- uh, Georges Michel. And I just got Pareto's autograph in the mail this week.

Lex Fridman 1:07:55 So, he- he talks about freedom, um, liberty. There's an interesting, um, line that I'd like to get your opinion on, in terms of resist and in terms of liberty. "There's no one force," he goes to quote, "There's no one force, no group, and no class that is the preserver of liberty. Liberty is preserved by those who are against the existing chief power. Oppositions which do not express genuine social forces are as trivial in relation to entrenched power as the old court jesters." So, I mean, the question here is can... Liberty is... Are you comfortable with that definition or that view of liberty, of freedom, that it, at its highest ideal, is expressed through the resistance to the powerful-

Michael Malice 1:08:44 I-

Lex Fridman 1:08:44 ... as opposed to existing in its own?

Michael Malice 1:08:46 I think his point, broadly speaking, which I agree with, is the only thing that can work to mitigate power is other power. That it's, um... Uh, talk is cheap, and persuasion, it has very limited efficacy. It- it's like, if there's a burglar, right? And one person i- will give you a speech about property rights, and you shouldn't be in this person's house, and the other person has a gun, you know, it's- it's clear which is w- gonna be more persuasive.

Lex Fridman 1:09:20 Yeah, but they... Can't you just be free without the struggle, the... Without this conflict? And- and it... I... What I'm uncomfortable with this view is how closely it, uh, links freedom and conflict. Like, why does this world have to have conflict for you to be free? Can't... I mean, it's... Uh, and part of it is just emphasis.

Michael Malice 1:09:42 Were you just saying suffering is what leads to joy?

Lex Fridman 1:09:46 See, and now you're in agreement. Thank you. That's... I- I just did that, just so you can come around and agree. I win.

Michael Malice 1:09:52 (laughs)

Lex Fridman 1:09:52 Next topic. What? (laughs) . Wow, I'm playing 3D chess here. Okay.

Lex Fridman 1:10:03 This is New Year's. This is- this is now December 31st, I think that's how it works, but in 1973.

Michael Malice 1:10:10 Okay.

Lex Fridman 1:10:11 Uh, we recorded this before you were born. Or no, um, years after you were born, in the '60s. You look great for a '60... Is it early '60s, or...

Michael Malice 1:10:22 Sure.

Lex Fridman 1:10:22 Okay. What five things, let's say, or moments in 2021 are you grateful for? Or people? Just, I don't know, things, moments, beautiful experiences. Profound essences of the year. Like, looking back, what are the cool things that you just-

Michael Malice 1:10:43 Personally or socially?

Lex Fridman 1:10:46 D- do you exist, like, in a platonic way, socially? I mean, per- oh, in your personal life?

Michael Malice 1:10:51 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 1:10:52 Anything. You're- you're both... You're now Michael Malice, you exist as a social entity and a personal human being, and all of it, the whole thing. Like, what- what stands out to you about 2021?

Michael Malice 1:11:05 Uh, the fact that, for the first time in my life other than college, I moved to a new city. That was a very big one, and there's no part of me that regrets it or misses New York. So that was a very big deal for me.

Lex Fridman 1:11:18 What do you, uh... About this move, about Austin itself, about maybe the move itself. May- maybe just the act of moving. What- what, um, what's great about it to you?

Michael Malice 1:11:31 The fact that I had forgotten what it's like to have a huge social network, which I had in New York, before people started falling away, and then it really escalated as a result of de Blasio and- and the COVID restrictions. So to have a big crew here, um, is something that was very validating. The thing that's also exciting about Austin is that Austin is not a particularly big town, it's not a particularly great town, but everyone here, at least in the circles I travel in, is kind of a refugee from their towns. So i- there is this sense of camaraderie, there is this sense of we're building something together. Back in New York, when you meet someone, it would be like, "Who is this person? Why am I talking to them?" Like, "Are they a normie? Are they gonna be weird?" And here, there's very little of that. I think there's much more sense of trust with one another, uh, when you meet new people. So that's something that's really exciting about, um... Like, I've been introducing all my friends to each other, and everyone's been hitting it off like gangbusters. It's really great. So I really enjoy that about, um, Austin. I'm enjoying, you know, the weather, the space. Uh...

Lex Fridman 1:12:36 You've read Kerouac? Any of his stuff?

Michael Malice 1:12:38 I have. On the Road, I read. I read a biography of him.

Lex Fridman 1:12:41 What... I- I don't know if it was on... I think it was On the Road. Uh, where he- he talks about that feeling when, um, you're going to some place... You're leaving a place, and you're going somewhere else.... and the, the place you're leaving disappears behind you.

Michael Malice 1:12:55 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 1:12:56 And all the people, and a- all... Like, the, you just think about that life, and it's forever gone. And th- there's some inkling of that where, um, you get to realize your almost mortality because, okay, that's a chapter, and there's not many more. I know it's a beautiful chapter. But now onto the next chapter. Is there a melancholy feeling there?

Michael Malice 1:13:18 No, it's the opposite. I feel like I've been given a new lease on life 'cause I didn't realize to what extent there was this subtext of hopelessness in New York, and also people who, in New York, you don't appreciate, or you appreciate it consciously but you can't escape it emotionally, how much the winters get to you, psychologically. Uh, it's, it's tough. It gets dark so early. It gets cold. You can't walk around. Like that's the thing that's fun about it, or was fun about New York is that, you know, when the weather's warm you can walk for an hour and just enjoy-

Lex Fridman 1:13:43 Mm-hmm.

Michael Malice 1:13:43 ... the sunshine and there's a lot to see and do. But in the winter, you don't have any of that. It's, it's brutal. Uh, and here it's just, uh ... So that is something. There's no melancholy at all.

Lex Fridman 1:13:54 Well, that's because there's ... Can we say something beautiful about New York? Not the way it is now, but the way it ...

Michael Malice 1:14:01 I could go on for days about how great New York was.

Lex Fridman 1:14:04 What did you learn about human civilization, just life that was beautiful, from New York?

Michael Malice 1:14:10 I learned that there's a lot of really unique, special people out there who are doing their little part to move the envelope and make the world a better place. And that when you have a city where they're all there together at the same time, then that really moves the world. And I'm thinking of Paris in the '20s-

Lex Fridman 1:14:35 Mm-hmm.

Michael Malice 1:14:35 ... and Harlem in the '20s-

Lex Fridman 1:14:36 Yeah.

Michael Malice 1:14:37 ... and New York in the '70s, and, uh, uh, LA in the late '60s, and San Francisco especially in the late '60s, things like this. Uh, they really punch above Detroit certainly at its heyday. They punch above their weight and, and just really kind of ... Philadelphia in 17, 1700s, things really start happening that ripples throughout the world.

Lex Fridman 1:14:57 You think Austin has a chance-

Michael Malice 1:14:59 Yes.

Lex Fridman 1:14:59 ... to, to be a, a Paris, that's, in some way? Uh ...

Michael Malice 1:15:02 Yes. Because, again, it wasn't all of Paris. It was the Left Bank of Paris and Gertrude-

Lex Fridman 1:15:07 Yeah.

Michael Malice 1:15:07 ... Stein and Hemingway and all them in a little area. So, you know, when you read these history books, these scenes, it's like 50 people, like in a-

Lex Fridman 1:15:14 Yeah.

Michael Malice 1:15:14 ... 10-block radius. These aren't these huge, like, Davos conventions.

Lex Fridman 1:15:20 Okay, so the move, the big move.

Michael Malice 1:15:22 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 1:15:23 What else? What else stands out to you? Again, all, both personally and socially, like z- zooming in and zooming out.

Michael Malice 1:15:30 I did a book with a UFC fighter and I was making the point, uh, he was a nine-time world champion, that I would never be as good at my job as he was at his.

Lex Fridman 1:15:40 Yeah.

Michael Malice 1:15:41 And then when I dropped Anarchist Handbook in May and it was the top non-fiction book on Amazon for like most of a day, I was like, "Oh, I'm the top non-fiction writer in America (laughs) just for today." I was like, "Oh, crap. Okay. So I guess I was wrong (laughs) that, that, that was a major deal." I w- I was still shocked and delighted.

Lex Fridman 1:15:58 By the way, congratulations and I'm truly happy for you, man.

Michael Malice 1:16:03 It ... Well, it's-

Lex Fridman 1:16:04 I'm so proud.

Michael Malice 1:16:05 But it's also I, I'm proud because these are people who had points of view and they-

Lex Fridman 1:16:14 Mm-hmm.

Michael Malice 1:16:14 ... didn't have it easy, and they fought for what they believed in, and insofar as I get to rescue them, to some extent, from the dustbin of history and say, "These people really mattered and they really are worth hearing," uh, I, I, I ... That I love. I love stuff like that. Um, you know, I, I was talking to a friend of mine, Topher, uh, like a year ago and y- 'cause we're in a weird position with what kind of jobs we have. So like I'll be talking on my live streams about people like Candy Darling or Wallace Thurman and, like these are not household names at all, and then I'd be like proud of myself that I'm the one who brings them to some sort of more prominence. And then you wanna tell yourself, "Well, get over yourself. Who you think you are?" But it's like, but no one else is talking about these people, or very few. So to be able to kinda, um, give them some kind of stature and platform that they deserve, I think, is, uh, I, I love being able to do that.

Lex Fridman 1:17:07 So you have a strong voice yourself and, to, to sort of join them in ... It's like, uh, John Lennon with the, joining in with The Beatles, is like a chorus of very different views on an- anarchism. Just it's celebrating the individuals, it's celebrating the idea, and you are, I think will be remembered as a, a powerful philosopher yourself but like you're almost taking ... Just the humility of being in a room with powerful minds together in one book is cool.

Michael Malice 1:17:39 Yeah, and that th- these people mattered and they had-

Lex Fridman 1:17:41 Yeah.

Michael Malice 1:17:41 ... a unique perspective. Um, and as I said in the introduction to the book, I remember I was in college and we were studying bioethics and there was like a, uh, like a graph in the book and one sh- part says antinomianism which was the view that ... And one side said legalism, right? The two extremes. Legalism is what is l- legal as defined by the government, or what is moral as defined by the government, and one said antinomianism which is nothing stands above moral law. And then there was like, well, since no one believes in this the answer is so much on the other side. It's like, well, why is it on the chart if no one beli- if it has a name, someone believes in it.

Lex Fridman 1:18:15 (laughs)

Michael Malice 1:18:16 You know? So, you know, anarchism is a word that's bandied about and, and in a dismissive way. And it's like, you don't have to like me or agree with what I'm saying but you can't pretend that they weren't ... Tolstoy. You're gonna tell me Tolstoy doesn't know what he's talking about completely? He's in there. Uh, he was an anarchist. So, um, it, it was, it was a big accomplishment.

Lex Fridman 1:18:35 It was really cool to get a chance to do the audiobook, uh, for you, you did an incredible thing which is got a bunch of really cool people, uh, to read, a lot of interesting varied people to

Narrator 1:18:46 Yeah.

Michael Malice 1:18:47 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 1:18:47 ... make the-

Michael Malice 1:18:47 So what I did for the audiobook, which I-... it- I, I don't like the idea that hard work is inherently good 'cause sometimes being lazy is actually the right choice.

Lex Fridman 1:18:55 Yeah.

Michael Malice 1:18:56 So I'm like, "Wait a minute, why am I reading all 23 chapters when it's 23 different authors?" It doesn't make sense. So I hit my Rolodex and I had different people read different chapters to make it sound literally-

Lex Fridman 1:19:07 Mm-hmm.

Michael Malice 1:19:07 ... like you have the different voices in the book. "Thank you very much. You did my..." Uh, 'cause I was gonna read my chapter. Wait a minute, like all the other authors are being read by somebody else.

Lex Fridman 1:19:15 (laughs)

Michael Malice 1:19:15 Let's have Lex read mine. The one chapter I am most moved by is, I di- uh, Lauren Chen, she's a podcaster as well. She's e- expecting now, so we wish nothing but the best for Lauren and Liam, and the baby. Um, there's a chapter there by this guy named Charles Robert Plunkett called Dynamite, and he's advocating for making bombs and killing people, uh, killing, you know, the forces of capitalism. And Emma Goldman, uh, it was published in her essay while she was on lecture tour, and she was just like, "Why is this in here? This is, this is just really gonna make us look bad," so on and so forth. And when you're dealing with any kind of... You know, H. L. Mencken has that quote about every rational man must at times be tempted to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats.

Lex Fridman 1:20:05 Mm-hmm.

Michael Malice 1:20:05 So I wanted to talk- it sound like the seductive aspect of violence.

Lex Fridman 1:20:11 Mm-hmm.

Michael Malice 1:20:11 Like that's the problem.

Lex Fridman 1:20:12 Mm-hmm.

Michael Malice 1:20:12 Like when you're dealing with terrorism, when you're dealing with political violence, to be able to understand how people can fall for this, how people can be persuaded to think, "This is a good idea."

Lex Fridman 1:20:23 Mm-hmm.

Michael Malice 1:20:23 "That I'm gonna make some dynamite and throw it into this crowd and kill, you know, police officers and innocent people possibly in, in service of violence." It's- you have to... It, it, it's easy to say, "Oh, they're all crazy," but they're not. You know, even- not- m- most people who are crazy don't do these things, you know?

Lex Fridman 1:20:39 Mm-hmm.

Michael Malice 1:20:40 So to have a woman read that chapter, and I told her kind of read it like a phone sex operator because I wanted to have that siren song of like, so you can understand why this calls out to people who are in- in the rope, the people who are like marginalized. And she did such a superb job with that chapter.

Lex Fridman 1:21:00 That's such a beautiful vision. Yeah, 'cause violence, that's, uh... Violence is part of human history, uh, to a degree that it must be seductive. It must be... There must be a strong pull.

Michael Malice 1:21:14 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 1:21:14 Like it's not insane people. It's- there's something probably deep within our, our nature that craves violence, and then when there is charismatic leaders that inspire that, and revolution plus violence, that, that- I could see that being extremely seductive