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Natalya Bailey: Rocket Engines and Electric Spacecraft Propulsion | Lex Fridman Podcast #157

Natalya Bailey is a rocket propulsion engineer from MIT and now CTO of Accion Systems. Please support this podcast by checking out our sponsors: - Munk Pack: https://munkpack.com and use code LEX to get 20% off - Four Sigmatic: https://foursigmatic.com/lex and use code LexPod to get up to 60% off - Blinkist: https://blinkist.com/lex and use code LEX to get 25% off premium - Sun Basket: https://sunbasket.com/lex and use code LEX to get $35 off EPISODE LINKS: Natalya's Twitter: https://twitter.com/natalya926 Accion Systems: https://accion-systems.com/ PODCAST INFO: Podcast website: https://lexfridman.com/podcast Apple Podcasts: https://apple.co/2lwqZIr Spotify: https://spoti.fi/2nEwCF8 RSS: https://lexfridman.com/feed/podcast/ Full episodes playlist: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLrAXtmErZgOdP_8GztsuKi9nrraNbKKp4 Clips playlist: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLrAXtmErZgOeciFP3CBCIEElOJeitOr41 OUTLINE: 0:00 - Introduction 1:46 - Intelligent life in the universe 5:47 - Life in our solar system 7:52 - Humans on Mars 11:26 - Robots vs human in space exploration 12:20 - AI in space 16:25 - How rocket engines work 21:42 - How ion engines work 26:05 - How colloid engines work 35:03 - Material science 37:52 - Nuclear powered rocket engines 42:51 - Electric propulsion out in space 46:18 - Satellites 51:12 - Photo of Earth from the Moon 52:50 - Humans on Mars 55:12 - Propulsion without fuel 1:03:07 - How to build a rocket company 1:10:05 - SpaceX and commercial spaceflight 1:14:38 - Advice to startup founders 1:21:13 - Book recommendations 1:29:31 - Meaning of life CONNECT: - Subscribe to this YouTube channel - Twitter: https://twitter.com/lexfridman - LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lexfridman - Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/LexFridmanPage - Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/lexfridman - Medium: https://medium.com/@lexfridman - Support on Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/lexfridman

Lex FridmanhostNatalya Baileyguest
Jan 31, 20211h 34mWatch on YouTube ↗

At a glance

WHAT IT’S REALLY ABOUT

Rocket Scientist Natalya Bailey Redefines Space Travel With Electric Propulsion

  1. Lex Fridman and rocket propulsion engineer Natalya Bailey explore the engineering and philosophy of moving humans and robots through space, focusing on electric and ion-based propulsion systems. They contrast chemical rockets used for launch with efficient in-space electric engines such as ion thrusters and Bailey’s own colloid electrospray technology. The discussion widens to include extraterrestrial life, colonizing Mars, nuclear power in space, and long-term visions for interstellar travel. Bailey also reflects on startups, culture, and the deeper meaning of scientific work as building humanity’s collective knowledge.

IDEAS WORTH REMEMBERING

5 ideas

Electric propulsion trades raw thrust for extreme fuel efficiency in space.

Chemical rockets are noisy and powerful but burn a lot of propellant quickly, making them ideal for launch; once in orbit, electric systems like ion or colloid thrusters provide tiny but continuous thrust that can reach very high speeds over time with far less fuel.

Colloid (electrospray) engines use charged particles from liquids, not gas.

Bailey’s technology pulls ions from ionic liquids at nano-scale Taylor cones formed on microfabricated tips, then accelerates them with electric fields—enabling very compact, mass-producible thrusters suited for small satellites.

Power, not propulsion physics, is now a major bottleneck for deep-space missions.

Electric engines could do much more if spacecraft carried denser, more compact power sources; solar panels and batteries are limiting, so safe, small nuclear reactors in space would unlock higher-thrust, still-efficient missions.

Orbital traffic and debris already require active maneuvering and better norms.

Satellites in low earth orbit perform multiple collision-avoidance maneuvers per year, while many cheaper small sats can’t maneuver at all—raising the risk of debris cascades and underscoring the need for propulsion and responsible end-of-life plans.

Cost compression in space hardware forces radically different engineering approaches.

Where traditional ion engines cost tens of millions, new-space customers may only pay around $10,000, so companies like Accion rely on semiconductor-style batch fabrication instead of bespoke, hand-built hardware to stay viable.

WORDS WORTH SAVING

5 quotes

The basic principle is conservation of momentum: you throw stuff out the back of the engine and that pushes the rocket in the other direction.

Natalya Bailey

I almost wonder, are we putting unnecessary obstacles, like very finicky biological things, in the way of more robotic or silicon-based exploration?

Natalya Bailey

Electric propulsion I find much more refreshingly poorly understood… that’s what I’m going to work on.

Natalya Bailey

We’re just kind of at the very starting point of space exploration and science and understanding, so we should be spending more money there and not less.

Natalya Bailey

In my day-to-day, [meaning] just boils down to the pursuit of knowledge or improving the human condition and being kind.

Natalya Bailey

Existence of extraterrestrial and intelligent life; Drake equation and habitable worldsHuman vs robotic/AI-led space exploration and ethics of colonizing other planetsFundamentals of rocket propulsion: chemical vs electric (ion, Hall, colloid thrusters)Bailey’s colloid/electrospray engines and nano-scale materials/fluids physicsOrbital operations: small satellites, collision avoidance, debris, and graveyard orbitsFuture propulsion concepts: nuclear power, propellantless drives, and interstellar projectsBuilding a space startup: cost pressures, culture, hiring, and founder mindset

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