Niels Jorgensen: New York Firefighters and the Heroes of 9/11 | Lex Fridman Podcast #220

Lex Fridman 0:00 The following is a conversation with Niels Jorgensen, a New York firefighter for over 21 years who was there at ground zero on September 11th, 2001. He was forced to retire because of the leukemia he contracted from cleaning up ground zero. This podcast tells his story and the story of other great men and women who were there that day. Some of the stories we talk about are part of a new limited podcast series that Niels hosts called 20 for 20, with 20 episodes for the 20 years since 9/11. To support this podcast, please check out our sponsors in the description. As a side note, please allow me to say a few words about the terrorist attacks on September 11th, 2001. I was in Downtown Chicago on that day, lost in the mundane busyness of an early Tuesday morning. At that time, I was already fascinated by human nature, the best and the worst of it, exploring it through the study of history and literature. In the years before, as a young boy growing up in Russia, I saw chaos, uncertainty and desperation in the Soviet Union of the 1990s, wrapping up a century of war and suffering. But after coming to America, for me, there was a sense of hope, like all of it was behind us. A bad dream to be forgotten as we enter into the new century. On 9/11, when I saw the news of the second plane hitting the towers, my sense of hope had changed. I understood that the 21st century, like the century before, would too have its tragedies, its evildoers, its wars and its suffering. And unlike the history books, these stories will involve all of us. They will involve me, in however small and insignificant a role, but one that nevertheless carries the responsibility to help. I became an American that day, a citizen of the world. I felt the common humanity in all of us. I felt the unity and the love in the days that followed, and I think most of the world shared in this feeling, that we are all in this together. Evil cannot defeat the human spirit. There were many heroes sung and unsung on that day and in the years after. Often politicians fail to rightfully honor the service and sacrifice of these heroes. There is much I could say about that, but I don't want to waste my words on the failures of weak leaders. Instead, I want to say thank you to the men and women who rushed to ground zero to help, who put on a uniform to serve, who make me proud to be an American and a human being, and give me hope about the future of our civilization here on a small spinning rock, that despite the long odds, keeps kindling the fire of human consciousness and love. This is the Lex Fridman Podcast, and here is my conversation with Niels Jorgensen.

Lex Fridman 3:12 Take me through the day of September 11th, 2001, as you experienced it, as you lived it.

Niels Jorgensen 3:20 September 11th, 2001, uh, was a bright, beautiful, sunny Tuesday morning, uh, it was late summer. Uh, there's a lot of folks who go to the beaches in New Jersey call it the short summer. It's, uh, everybody's left after Labor Day but it's still beautiful enough to enjoy the weather. Um, I left my house about, uh, 6:30 in the morning, and, uh, my four and a half year old daughter, uh, said to me, "Daddy, which truck are you driving today? Um, the fire truck, the oil truck, or the Boar's Head truck?" Because, uh, I had three jobs at the time, um, most New York City firefighters and police officers, EMS, we, uh, don't make the most amount of money, so in order to live in that city you have to, uh, you have to hustle. And my wife stayed at home raising their children. So my daughter said, "Oh, so you should be safe 'cause you're on the oil truck." I said, uh, told her I was, uh, going on an oil truck that day. So she said, "You should be safe today, Daddy." So I left and, um, worked for this great company on the North Shore of Staten Island, Quinlan Fuel, uh, very nice people, treated me very well. And, uh, it was my first day back actually for the winter season, um, usually get laid off couple months in the summer 'cause thing's, you know, too hot to need oil. So I took the truck, started my route, uh, that day, and a plane hit the tower. So initially, I'm like, "Oh, it's probably some silly Learjet pilot, and he veered off track to get a better picture for a client and, uh, he hit the building." Probably hit a, you know, bad turbulence, uh, gust of wind, it's very windy down in that area of Manhattan, so that was my first thought.

Lex Fridman 4:58 Can we pause there for a second? So 6:30 AM you wake up, you leave, and then a plane hits at 8:00-

Niels Jorgensen 5:06 8:45, 8:50, yeah.

Lex Fridman 5:07 ... 8:45 AM.

Niels Jorgensen 5:08 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 5:09 Uh, just interesting how you phrased it. So how did you hear that a plane hit something?

Niels Jorgensen 5:15 I, um, I'm a big news radio guy, a news guy, bit of a buff, I've been that way since I was a kid. And I had the news radio on, uh, the local New York radio station, and as I was driving the truck, I heard, uh, you know, a, uh, emergency report, uh, this just in, aircraft has just struck the World Trade Center. And, uh, where Quinlan's is located, it's on the north rim of Staten Island, uh, which is right on New York Harbor, and, uh, you could see Statue of Liberty, you know, mile or two away in the distance and then passed that is the towers. So I just literally stopped the truck and looked out and I saw the, the smoke.

Lex Fridman 5:56 So there was smoke?

Niels Jorgensen 5:57 Oh, it was dark black smoke. It was just, yeah, I mean, it was burning fully at that point. And, uh...

Lex Fridman 6:03 Did you have fear of what the hell happened or is it...

Niels Jorgensen 6:06 I was, I was initially scared for anybody involved. Uh, I realized, I said there's, there's gonna be lots of fatalities obviously depending on the size of the aircraft and, uh...You know, uh, the- the business day there had started probably at 8:00, 8:30, so those buildings should have been packed at that moment. So that was a thought of- crossed my mind. Um, but from our- our, uh, being responder perspective, if you're off-duty, normally, you- you do not go to a scene. Uh, they don't want you to because of accountability and safety. Uh, the on-duty platoon will handle it and if it's something very horrific then they will have something called a recall, which is any police, firefighter, or EMS personnel is obligated to go to their command immediately, uh, check in with, you know, their command, get their gear, and stand by and await orders for deployment, uh, or to remain in that command for your routine duties.

Lex Fridman 7:07 How often throughout history ha- has there been recalls?

Niels Jorgensen 7:10 I believe the one prior to that was like in the 1968 riots, uh, possibly and then maybe in the '70s there was, uh, another blackout and riots. And I remember my dad talking about it, and he actually always said, "Just remember if something bad's going down, don't just rush in. You- you- you await the recall. Or at the very least, if there isn't a recall, you get to your firehouse." And because if you show up somewhere, there's a good chance that no one knows you're there and now you in your well-intended, uh, movements, you- you get lost or trapped or... no one's looking for you. So that's the whole thing with, you know, checking in. And now, you- you're with a squad or, you know, group of guys and everyone knows, you know, hey, there's Nels, there's Lex, okay, they're on, you know, this team. So I, uh, I said, "All right, they're not gonna need us, it's probably gonna be a fifth alarm and, you know, there'll be 250 firefighters there, they'll handle it. It's gonna be a bad day for those guys, but, you know, our guys take on some heavy stuff and they'll be fine." Few minutes later, um, the second plane hit and I knew immediately I'm like, "Okay, uh, we're under attack." So I just flew the truck back in. I told, uh, my boss, "I have to go." He understood, he knew something was way wrong and, uh, I just was flying. Uh, at the time, I actually had a yellow Volkswagen Beetle, uh, kind of a goofy car to be driving, but I loved it.

Lex Fridman 8:41 So for people who are just listening, you're kind of a big guy.

Niels Jorgensen 8:43 Well, yeah, I could... I- I definitely need to lose about 50 pounds, but yeah.

Lex Fridman 8:47 No, I don't mean in that way, your frame-

Niels Jorgensen 8:49 Yeah. Well, as- as my-

Lex Fridman 8:49 ... big hands.

Niels Jorgensen 8:50 As my beloved friend Bobby Adams would say to me, I- I, uh, I was driving around in a clown wagon and he also says I have a waving- waving hairdo, waving bye-bye, so thanks Bobby. Uh-

Lex Fridman 9:01 Good luck.

Niels Jorgensen 9:01 But yeah, he's a great friend. Uh, yeah, so I took the Volkswagen and I flew in and I was heading over to Verrazzano Bridge and, uh, hit the Brooklyn Queens Expressway. And my phone rang and my wife normally doesn't, uh, curse or raise her voice and she was yelling at me and she said, "Don't go in there. Go to your firehouse." Well, first she asked where... she knew I was on the way, but she just wanted to know where and, um, I said, "I'm on- I'm on the curve," which is 65th Street on the Brooklyn Queens Expressway called Dead Man's Curve. We- we actually used to do a lot of car wrecks up there. And, uh, I was hitting that curve pretty fast and then right around the curve is the exit to the firehouse and I had to decide, well, am I driving right in to the Battery Tunnel, to the city or am I going through the firehouse? And then I said, "But I have no gear. I- I'm gonna be ineffective. How do I show up with no gear, no protection, no..." you know. So she said, "Do what your dad would, file the recall, go to the firehouse." Nice. Hung up the phone, said, "I love you. Gotta go." And I did, I went to the firehouse and, uh, I'm glad I listened to her. I had my father ringing in my ears. Uh, my dad, beautiful guy. He's, uh, 82 and 34 years in New York City Fire Department. He, uh, he came down end stage, non-Hodgkin's lymphoma, uh, he's 38, back in, uh, going on 39, 1978. And, uh, this guy he, uh, he's my hero. He, um, he was gonna die, they sent him home, they said, "You- there's really not much we can do. Go get your affairs in order." And he says, "But Doc, I have three young kids," and- and, uh, she- she called a couple of hours later she said, um, "I- I got in touch with Sloan Kettering and, uh, they have a new, uh, new drug. We want you to be a test pilot." And he- she- he said, uh, "Hey Doc, I'm a..." he's got a heavy Brooklyn accent, "I'm a fireman, I'm a fireman, I'm not a pilot."

Lex Fridman 10:59 (laughs)

Niels Jorgensen 11:00 And, uh, so she said, "No, no, we want you to try this drug out and it's- it's... uh, if it works, we might have some success. But if not..." He says, "Yeah, I'm gonna die, so let's do it." So, uh, every- every two weeks for four years, he'd, uh, he'd go for treatment. But, uh, he was assigned to a desk job after that, after the- the, uh, cancer tumor removal and, you know, the heavy treatments. And he'd get up every morning at 4 o'clock in the morning and he'd, uh, he'd walk down to the train station in Staten Island, take the train. And then he'd, uh, he'd take the ferry across the harbor and he'd get off looking at the towers and then he'd take a subway into Brooklyn. And on, uh, every other Thursday, he'd leave at noon and do the same exact reverse route and he'd get to the cancer center and, uh, my mom would meet him and, uh, he'd get his infusion and within two hours, he'd be violently ill for, uh, few days, really badly ill. And I just remember, um, yeah, he's 10 years... I was 10 years old and, uh, he just had to have the room darkened out and he- he'd be so sick and I'd just go in and wipe the vomit from his face. Just try to give him a little water, but he couldn't take it down 'cause he'd throw it up. And, uh...... maybe on Saturday, he'd start coming around a little bit, drink down a little bit of tea. And on Sunday morning, he, he put his robe on, he'd go down. Mom would make him black coffee and toast, and he'd sit up, watch the news, watch a game. And then Monday morning, he'd go back to work. And he did that for four years. And, uh, he's 82 and he's still here.

Lex Fridman 12:45 (laughs) Uh, you said that your dad's a man of a few words, but when he talks they're profound.

Niels Jorgensen 12:51 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 12:51 So, what, what words were ringing in your ear when you were driving?

Niels Jorgensen 12:55 I just always remember him saying, "Kid, they give the recall, you go to the firehouse. You don't go where you think you should. You go to the firehouse. You follow your orders."

Lex Fridman 13:05 So, do the smart thing. Do your job.

Niels Jorgensen 13:07 Yes, sir. And every time we'd hang up the phone, it's fireman talk. He'd say, "I love you, keep low." My dad couldn't tell me he loved me until, um, I told him when I first got on the fire department. I was 22. And my dad grew up in a tough household. My granddad was a, a good man, but a tormented man. He, he was sent away from home at 12 years old. Um, um, he was in, from Denmark, and I'm named after him, Grandpa Nils. And, uh, I think his demons took up a large part of his life. His, his anger, his, whatever it was, his fear. I, I, I, we got the sense that maybe when he was a child, he was a, an apprentice baker w-, you know, living with strangers, working for them. And we, we think maybe he was abused, and that's why he took it out on my, my dad and my grandma and my aunts. But, um, they, uh, they made it up to each other at the end of my granddad's life. My granddad turned out to be the best grandfather ever. He, I think he tried to heal, and heal everyone by his change of behavior. So, he's proof that, uh, you can change, you can improve if you work on it. But, uh, I know I'm going off track here. But, uh...

Lex Fridman 14:16 No, but you were man enough in your, you said in your 20s to tell your dad-

Niels Jorgensen 14:19 My dad, yeah. And my dad-

Lex Fridman 14:20 ... that you love him?

Niels Jorgensen 14:21 And, um, I got on the job, and, uh, he said, "How'd it go, kid? Uh, how was the tour?" How was... We call it tour of duty. I said, "Oh, Dad, it was great. It was great, I love it." And he goes, "Well, just remember, you keep low. You always keep low." And keep low means you stay down below the flames. You know, if a room flashes over and it's, it's burning, you, if you stay up high, you're gonna get burned badly. But if you get down on your belly and you crawl, you'll get out. So, he'd always say that when he'd hang up the phone. And I said, "Well, I love you, Pop." And he says, "Oh, well, thanks, kid."

Lex Fridman 14:53 (laughs)

Niels Jorgensen 14:54 I said, I said, "Well, you can say it too." And, uh...

Lex Fridman 14:57 Oh, nice. He pressured him.

Niels Jorgensen 14:58 And he did-

Lex Fridman 14:59 He did?

Niels Jorgensen 14:59 ... and he said it. And now every time we talk, he says it. So, you know, um-

Lex Fridman 15:03 (laughs)

Niels Jorgensen 15:03 ... you know, they, they talk about masculinity and whatnot. And, uh, my dad is one of those tough, tough guys with a soft edge. And that's, that's how he brought me up, um, you know, to, uh, be a protector. I hate bullies. I was, uh, bullied really badly as a kid. And, uh, I really hated it. And, and now I, I find myself sometimes throwing myself into situations to protect people that are being, you know, violated and hurt. And, uh, I just can't walk away from it. But that's my dad. My dad, uh, was that. You know, just a great guy. But anyway, yeah.

Lex Fridman 15:37 You still listened to... Therefore, see, you, you probably wanted to rush right to the, to the towers, but you went-

Niels Jorgensen 15:44 Yeah, so anyway, I got... I, I did, I listened to him. I listened to my wife and went to the firehouse, and it was really strange. It was eerie because, um, the computer dispatch system was, was still beeping, um, which meant it, it sent a dispatch and the truck received it. Ladder 114, my, my truck company received it, and they left. They were gone. So, it was this beautiful old building built in the 1880s with a spiral staircase. Just a narrow, old brick garage, and it was empty. And I just heard the computer chirping. And I looked down on the ticket and it said, "Ladder 114 respond. The .......................... West World Trade Center aircraft into building." And I said, "Oh, God, I just hope they're not on a death ride," 'cause this, this now was two towers and, uh, they were burning. They were free burning. And, and I knew this was really, really bad. And, uh, I got on the phone and I called command right away. I called the 40th Battalion and then I, you know... Chief's, Chief's aide just said, "Look, you know, get 12 guys, sign them in to the journal." There's a journal of daily events. Every, everything that takes place in the firehouse 24/7 has to be logged. And I logged myself as coming in, reporting for, reporting for duty. Um, and as the guys came in, I logged them in. And then, uh, one of our lieutenants took command. We grabbed up a bunch of gear, and they basically told us, "Get 12 guys, get a city bus, and get down to the batt-..." The battery tunnel, they, they said would probably be closed. There was threats it was gonna be blown up to get to the Brooklyn Bridge. And, uh, so we did. We got a city bus, we flagged it down. And the bus driver said, "I'm sorry, I can't give you the bus. I will drive you." And he took us and we stopped at engine 201, which is just about a quarter mile down the road from us, uh, as our affiliated engine company and my, uh, my, my childhood best friend, uh, here, Johnny, uh, Shard, was... He was assigned there and he was on shift. And, uh, and they went through the tunnel. And, uh, we picked up those guys, the off-duty guys from 201, and then we kept going down Fourth Avenue and we picked up 239's crew. And then we hightailed it down to the bridge, and, um, there was a lot of traffic. There was a lot of people fleeing, coming over the bridge in, in waves, so it affected the, the inbound.

Lex Fridman 18:11 What was the mood like, uh, among the crew?

Niels Jorgensen 18:14 Um, it was somber because just prior to getting on the bus, the, uh, first tower went down. So, we, we, we figured that... I had heard 114, um, my lieutenant, Dennis Oberg-I heard him on the radio and he, uh, he said, "114, Br- uh, Manhattan, we're on your frequency. What's, you know, where do you need us?" And then he said, uh, "Tally Ho," which is our nickname, "Tally Ho, respond to

Narrator 18:39 (inhales deeply)

Niels Jorgensen 18:39 ... the Vesey and West to the command post and, uh, receive your orders." And I heard Dennis say, "Tally Ho, 10-4." And, uh, Dennis... A little while after that, they were proceeding to go into, I believe it was... I get this mixed up and I'm sorry, I should know this right at the back of my hand but sometimes it's just such a, a haze. But (inhales deeply) the second tower hit was the first one to go down and, um, they were heading over to go in it and all of a sudden he looked up and he saw, like, what he thought to be disintegration and he turned the guys around and he said, "Run. Just run. Don't look back, don't look up. Go." They sprinted as fast as they could and, uh, they dove under a firetruck. And the guys that were sprinting behind 'em, 40 feet away, were underneath a pile that was 10 stories deep. They, they were killed. And just further into that pile was his rookie son, who... Dennis' rookie son who was working in Ladder 105, which was my first command in the department. I worked for... Proudly served for three years. And just aside them was my childhood best friend, John Chard, and his, uh, his crew from 201 and, uh, they, they were all killed. (inhales deeply) And the strange irony to wum- to that is that Dennis, Dennis' son, Dennis Jr., was working underneath the, uh, under the wing of a senior man, as we say. A senior man is a guy with a lot of experience and he'll, uh, he'll watch over you and make sure you don't, you don't veer off, like I veer off a lot (laughs) talking. And, uh, you don't veer off and you get yourself hurt. In the morning of 1993 bombing, Henry Miller was my senior man. (sniffs) (sighs) And I was the young guy under his wing. And he protected me. And toward the end of the day, he looked around and he said, "Kid, it's a bad day." He said, "They didn't do it right they blew it up in the middle. If they did it in a corner, (inhales deeply) they would've dropped this building half a mile down to Canal Street. But don't kid yourself, they'll be back and they'll do it, and they'll do it right next time." And it's so strange and so prophetic because he was there with him and he died with Dennis. He knew it. And, like, 1994, we had a training manual with a picture of the towers, with a target. And it said, "Not a, not a matter of if, but a matter of when. Be prepared." And it's haunting. It was like people knew, right? And we didn't stop it. And, uh, so we got off the bus. But just prior to that, coming over the bridge, the second tower was gone now. And we're just destroyed because we're like, "Our guys are there. They're all in there." Now we're f- feeling like cowards because we got there late. And initially, we're thinking there's 500 guys that are gone because there was a tenth- tenth alarm assignment, which means (inhales deeply) 50, 60 fire trucks, uh, five to six guys per... You know, you're looking at, at least, no, it was even more. A tenth alarm plus multiple alarms on top of it. There was a dispatch basically the equivalent of five to 600 firefighters (sniffs) . We figured, oh, they're all, they're all in there. They're all gone. All the police officers, Port Authority police, NYPD police, court officers just up the street from the courts. Transit cops from the train tunnels, like, just, you know, we knew everybody was going and, uh, now they're gone.

Lex Fridman 22:28 So you, what you saw... Wha- what were we looking at? What did it look like? So you saw rubble and then you knew that many... that 105 and 201, many of those guys are in the... they're dead.

Niels Jorgensen 22:41 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 22:41 What-

Niels Jorgensen 22:41 And we thought-

Lex Fridman 22:42 What did you see?

Niels Jorgensen 22:42 ... 114 was in there too. We didn't realize at that point. We didn't even realize that they had gotten under that truck. We thought they were all gone, but yeah, it looked like... Like s- it looked like, it looked like a movie scene with just end of the earth destruction. These just massive piles of intertwined steel, what was left of the steel. And, and, you know, there was no cement. It was all just dust and y- it was just a burning pile of, of dust and concrete, and, and plastic. And it was just, everything was just pulverized and it was, it was truly hard to mentally compute that. Like, it was like, "What?" And then there was just fighter jets, a couple fighter jets just circling and, and you just heard the (imitates jets roaring) flying by over your head. I mean, you'd literally see the guy banking the turn around the Brooklyn Bridge and just coming back and I'm like, "Holy shoot. W- we're under attack." And we, we couldn't really get concrete intel as to what exactly... We knew planes, but then we kept hearing there was multiple devices. There was devices in the Battery Tunnel and there was devices on the George Washington Bridge and in the subways and it was just, it was just chaos. It was... I mean, we kept it together, obviously, 'cause that's kind of... we try. That's what we do. But the, the just constant barrage of different reports, it was like, "Holy shoot." And then as we were being deployed, it was a little frustrating, but they were trying to take command and send us in groups now because they realize we have to start searching this. There's... You could hear the, the alarms on the, on the Scott air mask, the, the packs we wear to go into the building. It has a motion alarm and if you stop moving for 30 seconds, it just sounds like this whining, you know, this screaming bell. Like it, it just keeps going and going.... and you could hear multiple units of those going off and you're like, "Wait a minute. There's guys with those." Like, "Where are they?"

Lex Fridman 24:40 (laughs)

Niels Jorgensen 24:40 And it's emanating from underneath the pile. And-

Lex Fridman 24:43 Wow.

Niels Jorgensen 24:43 ... you know, it was, it was just surreal, and, um, truly like, like a, like a w- a war zone, you know. I mean, I was a soldier in the Reserves and I never saw combat, and I would never claim that I did, but, you know, we trained. We trained for a lot of situations and we trained in, you know, real-life atmospheres and whatnot, and this was just beyond that by leaps and bounds. It was, it was bizarre, like-

Lex Fridman 25:08 Did you see the towers collapse?

Niels Jorgensen 25:10 As we were coming over the bridge, I... The first one, we were, as we were deploying from the firehouse, we had a television on and I saw it go down. And it just, it was just like... And, and, you know, we were so involved in, in getting gear together and getting, okay, you know, teams set up, and okay, you're going to be with these two guys and these... You know. And I just yelled, I said, "Guys," and they're looking at me. I, I dropped to my knees and I started praying. They're like, "What? What the hell's wrong?" I said... And I couldn't even say. It's like, uh, it's like, "114. They're in there." And, and they're like, "What?" I said, "The tower's gone." And all you saw on your TV was just this pile of dust, and I guess 'cause they didn't see it going down, they probably thought I truly lost it and, and then, then the realization came. It was like, "Oh, wow, the tower's down." So now, it was like, "Wow, this is really on." So we, we just took off and got that bus and, uh...

Lex Fridman 26:04 So if you thought many of the guys on 114 were dead, if you thought that, w- did you think you were going to die? I mean, if you're rushing into the... Towards the rubble?

Niels Jorgensen 26:18 I... As crazy as it sounds, I never thought that the other tower would go down. I said, "Okay, maybe some freak chance that one went down. But nah, the other one's not gonna go." Like they're built so strong.

Lex Fridman 26:30 Yeah.

Niels Jorgensen 26:30 You know, I was in those towers so many times and, I mean, I ate dinner up in the top floor restaurant, windows on the world, and I'm saying, "Nah, there's no way." Like, like, "How the hell did this one happen?" But I, I was having a hard time mentally processing that the building was gone. And, and, and believe me, if, if you don't have fear in this industry, and, you know, police, fire, military, then you're, you're kidding yourself or you're a danger to everyone. I don't care who it is, as tough as they are, this and that, everybody has a certain level of fear with doing this. And I don't care how long you do it, there's always that chance of something going bad, and, and everyone who does it has that certain amount of fear. But at that point, it was such a feeling of disbelief that fear wasn't even kicking in. It was just like, "What the hell just happened?" And I- I honestly think it was almost like a shock, and, and it just stayed that whole day, um...

Lex Fridman 27:27 So the building is... Before it collapses, it's burning.

Niels Jorgensen 27:30 It's just burning. I mean, upper floors is... You know, up in the 78th, up to the 80s, and then it's... You know, there's... The way the, the cut was from the plane, it wasn't just straight across. It was, you know, from the 78th, then, you know, on up to maybe the 86th, and, you know, um, then the jet fuel had come down and was burning down, and there was people on the, on the ground who were doused with jet fuel that was already burning, and they were lit on fire on the ground.

Lex Fridman 27:59 Yeah.

Niels Jorgensen 27:59 It, it was, it was just insane how vast the destruction path was.

Lex Fridman 28:04 As a firefighter, what are you supposed to do with that scale of fire? What-

Niels Jorgensen 28:10 I, I think the first bosses in, the first chiefs were just gonna do their best to get... As we, we get hose lines... What, what our whole theory is or our tactics is to get water at the fire, at the base of the fire, and get the truck company, which is the ladder company, they're the guys who break the doors down, put ladders up, this and that, to get them to where the life is most expected and get them outta there. So I think the chief's tactics at that point was, "Let me get multiple engine companies. Let me get four, five, six hose lines fighting this fire, this massive fire, and let me get 15, 20 truck companies up there just yoking people outta there." And-

Lex Fridman 28:53 Yeah, but you gotta go up the stair. Everything's not working. You got-

Niels Jorgensen 28:55 Yeah. Guys had to walk up 80, 80, 90, 100 flights of stairs. And there's audio of, of officers and firefighters speaking to each other on their radio channels, and unfortunately, at that point in time, we had very, very bad communication system. We've been fighting for years to get radios that work properly. We couldn't, 'cause it was a lot of money. We fought for years to get the full bunker firefighting suits, which is the pants and the coat. We used to have just coats and these roll-up rubber boots, and guys were burning to death, and we had to fight. And unfortunately, we lost three guys in one vicious, vicious fire in 1994, and then they finally said, "Enough's enough. Give these guys the gear." So it's a strange phenomenon in the, in the first responder world and in the military world. It's really one of the most important things that takes place in society, the most pertinent organizations, and we can't get the funding we need. It's crazy. They'll throw money at every nonsensical thing, but when it comes to gear, equipment, protective equipment, trucks, this... Couldn't get it.

Lex Fridman 30:08 Just all the ways you can take care of people. I saw in... Since 9/11, the wars in the Middle East have cost America over $6 trillion.

Niels Jorgensen 30:17 Yep.

Lex Fridman 30:17 And the amount of that money that was spent on the soldiers, in this case, the first responders, is minimal.

Niels Jorgensen 30:25 Compared to it, yeah.

Lex Fridman 30:26 Almost nothing.

Niels Jorgensen 30:27 They, they, they... Like, they closed down, I believe it's either Seven or Eight.In May of 2002, they closed down nine firehouses in New York City for budget reasons. We hadn't even finished cleaning up the World Trade Center site and they slashed the budget, and still to this day, have not reopened those firehouses. There's a million more people now living in New York City than there were in 2001 and the fire protection is, is way less than it was. And it's, it's a sin. It's really a sin.

Lex Fridman 31:03 Can I ask you a, a difficult question?

Lex Fridman 31:07 So there's this famous, um, photograph of a falling man. So many people had to decide when they're above the fire or in the fire whether to jump out of the building or to burn to death. What do you make of that decision? What do you make of that situation?

Niels Jorgensen 31:26 Those people who jumped, those were acts of sheer desperation. I've, I've been in fires and, and just minor burns, but minor, you know, in situation, but I've been trapped or caught somewhat, ended up in a burn center for some nothing, nothing serious at all. But like, but I, I, for those brief seconds, half a minute, was, thank God if, if I didn't have my fire gear on, I would have been burned to a very, very horrible level. Those people were burning alive and they had the choice of either to stay there and burn alive or to launch themselves. And some of them, I don't fault them, but they, they had a few folks, they won't show it anymore because they say, I don't know why, it offends some people, but they had a couple folks that took umbrellas and they took garbage bags because they thought that it would slow down their acce- their acceleration rate to the ground and maybe, just maybe, they wouldn't be killed. And that's, to me, a true sense of desperation for humanity to say, "I'm going to die either way, but let me take my chance." And I don't know the exact number of those folks who did that, but our first member of the fire department killed, firefighter Daniel Sir from Engine 216, was struck by a jumper and one of my dear friends was ordered to help take him, and they knew he was passed away because he was hit by a, a flying missile. I mean, you know, 120 miles an hour, a body lands on you, those, those two bodies are now crushed. And they were ordered to take that firefighter and bring him across the street to Engine 10, Ladder 10. It was literally a firehouse. Less than 100 yards from the facade of the Trade Center, from the, the Trade Center complex. They were literally right there. And there was plane parts that went into that firehouse, landed into the front doors, onto the roof, but the building itself was not destroyed. So it was used as, as a, a mini command center for quite a while. So my friend was ordered to take Daniel's body in respect and bring it over to this firehouse and give it some semblance of dignity and lay it out on one of the b- the bunk room, the bunks we have in the bunk house and just cover it with a sheet and put a sign, "Please, firefighter killed. Do not disturb," and then we'll get to him later because obviously this operation's gonna go on for days. And my friend, who's such a great, great, wonderful guy is so still to this day filled with guilt because if they weren't taking his body out with the respect and dignity that they did, it took a while because, you know, it's just, it's a tough situation. His ladder company was coming over the bridge, there's a famous picture of Ladder 118, you see this tractor trailer fire truck, it's the one where the guy in the back also drives. And it's a zoomed out shot and you see the Brooklyn Bridge and you see only the firetruck in the middle and you see the two burning towers in the distance. Well, his engine company was just ahead of them on the bridge and the only reason that engine company lived is their initial duty assignment was to take that firefighter and bring his body over. It's like the military, we don't leave anyone behind. These are our guys. As we, some guys say, "It's all about the guy right next to you and nothing else really matters."

Lex Fridman 34:57 Mm-hmm.

Niels Jorgensen 34:58 When that guy right next to you goes down, it stops. You get that guy to safety, or if he's dead, you get him out. So in that timeframe, that saved his life, but that's a heavy burden to carry now for the rest of your life 'cause you say, "If I wasn't helping my dead friend, I'm dead."

Lex Fridman 35:16 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 35:18 What did it look like at Ground Zero? What did it feel like? What did it smell like? What... You said it, there was a sense that it was almost like a war zone, but can you paint a picture of, um, how much dust is in the air? How hot is it? How many people are there? And, and again, how did it feel like?

Niels Jorgensen 35:40 It was just, um, it was a scene of controlled chaos. Controlled because there was a semblance of command and we were just trying to do our jobs, but it was such a frantic pace because we're now digging frantically knowing that there's life underneath this pile.

Lex Fridman 35:58 And this is throughout the afternoon of that day, the evening?

Niels Jorgensen 36:00 This is, this is, yeah. I mean, this was nonstop, you know, uh, just nonstop really for, for days, but from my particular crew, we literally kept going. We, we initially were dispatched over towards number seven, had just gone down and we were searching the post office that was there. There was reports of people trapped and we painstakingly searched every single inch of that building to make sure no one was left in there and then we were deployed to the pile and the pile's sort of ambiguous because it was just such a vast, vast pile. I mean, it went for city blocks.... and we were, we were assisting in the retrieval of two Port Authority police officers, who were lucky enough to survive. But they were trapped. They were deep down into a crevasse and they had to be physically dug out and extricated. So there was a couple hundred, few hundred guys involved in that process of bringing in equipment, Jaws of Life, airbags to lift steel, you just, you know, to cut pieces of steel. It was just a huge operation. And we were back toward the logistics end of it, shuttling in gear and, and bringing, bringing in stretchers, bringing in oxygen, you know, whatever, whatever was needed and you were trying to climb over this, this jagged pile of debris. It wasn't like you just walked 100 feet on a, on a street with something. You were trying to climb over this I-beam and then down into this hole and then back up that hole. I mean, just to run one piece of equipment took a half an hour to get 100 feet, 200 feet. You know, mind you, some of these pieces of equipment are 100 pounds, you know, generator for hearse tools, this massive motor on a frame.

Lex Fridman 37:40 Unstable ground, like-

Niels Jorgensen 37:41 Unstable ground, h- just, just horrible conditions. Fires were still burning aside you, beneath you, and at one point, I kind of veered off to the side and I was with this other fireman from my father's old ladder company, 172, and it was strange 'cause we were down, quite a bit down, like 70 feet down into this ravine of debris, and he says, "Brother, what do you hear?" And at the time it was like dust, it was like sand just falling down a pile and it was hissing from gas pipes and water pipes, and, and I said, "I hear, I hear the gas lines, I hear the, the sand, I hear the, the concrete." He goes, "No, no. What else do you hear?" And just to the side of us was a lady's pocketbook and a high heel shoe and someone's sneaker, but nobody with it. And I said, "I don't know. I-I don't hear anything." He says, "Me neither." He goes, "No one's coming out of here." And I said, "No, no, no. There's, there's, there's got to be someone coming out of here. I mean, there's thousands of people in here and they're, they're coming out." He says, "Brother, we would hear them calling for help. They're gone." And I still at that point thought there was a chance, and, and after about the fourth day, they just said, "This is a recovery now. There's, there's no more, there's no more life, there's no more chance." And on that first night, we, we went full tilt till my crew, my specific crew of 12, 15 guys and... 4:00 in the morning we just, we just couldn't breathe anymore. We couldn't see. We w- we were caked just with... It was like if you took flour and just kept dousing yourself. And, and the lieutenant just said, "Look, guys, we're going to go back. We're going to get some medical aid and then we'll come back in a few hours." And, uh, we, we took a city bus back through the Battery Tunnel and um, unbeknownst to us, that morning, this off-duty firefighter, Stephen Siller from Squad Company 1, he, he raced down there with his pickup and he couldn't go any further because the traffic was stopped up, because they had a report of a bomb. So everything was held up. And he grabbed his fire gear and he put it on, stuff weighs about 60 pounds, and he ran through the tunnel, two and a half miles, got to the end of the tunnel. Fire truck was coming in from the other way. He hopped on the back, got him up to West Street, jumped off, tried to look for his, his company, where they were. And he was never seen again. He's gone.

Lex Fridman 40:20 Just ran through the tunnel.

Niels Jorgensen 40:21 Ran through the tunnel and he, he got there to help his, his team, right? It's all about the team. It's all about the guy right next to you. And he's the Tunnel to Towers Foundation, Stephen. His, his brother Frank decided in his name, in perpetuity, he's got a fund that, that now builds a home for every Gold Star family, for every seriously battle wounded warrior, for every seriously wounded first responder or killed-in-the-line-of-duty first responder. If they had a home, they'll pay the mortgage. If they didn't have a home, they give them a home. And especially if it's a, if it's a severely battle wounded, they give them a smart home because these poor guys come home with no limbs. And so the beauty of, the beauty of Stephen and his selfless act was that he's now helped thousands and thousands of people. I mean, Tunnel to Towers is incredible. That's part of our, part of our mission is to bring awareness to these great people at Tunnel to Towers, what they do. They've raised 250 million dollars to help, to help protect the protectors, to rescue the rescuers in, in a what's become, unfortunately, a somewhat ungrateful society. But they will not forget these great guys.

Lex Fridman 41:37 So you, uh, tell Stephen's story. He's one of the 20 people that you talk about in the new IronLabs 20 for 20 podcast series. If you can just linger on his story a little longer. What does that tell you about the human spirit, that this guy, you know, the tunnel couldn't, couldn't drive through so he just puts on that heavy pack and, and runs. What do you make of that?

Niels Jorgensen 42:06 That shows the depth of a man's soul. He didn't have to do that. He could have turned around and went home to his family and nobody would have shamed him. But he's one of those beautiful, brave people that take a job that really doesn't pay a lot of money and you become a cop or a firefighter or a nurse or an EMT or a medic or soldier or marine, airman, sailor. Y- when you take these jobs, you, you don't do it for......fanfare. You definitely don't do it for money. I mean, those, those 13 brave souls we lost, you know, a week or two ago in Afghanistan, they're brand new soldiers and Marines. They make $22,000 an hour, but they don't work 40 hours a week. They work 80, they work 90 hours a week. So they're making about six bucks an hour and you know what? They sign up. And firefighters and cops and medics and, and EMTs, nurses, emergency room doctors, they, they don't really make a lot of money. I mean, the starting salary right now for a New York cop, I was a New York cop for two years first. I made 12.25 an hour back in 1989 to get shot at during the crack wars. If you made, uh, $11 an hour with a family of four, you were entitled to welfare back then. So I was just above the welfare level-

Lex Fridman 43:36 (laughs) .

Niels Jorgensen 43:36 ... risking my life. And these are the guys that are getting ripped up now, right? And, and look, I won't get into any politics, but like, that says something about a someone's soul that they're willing to take a job like that and get, now get zero respect. So a guy like Stephen, what that shows is the depth of that man's soul and courage and determination. It's hard to be selfless in this world anymore, but I still know a lot of selfless people that just, just put on equipment every day, bulletproof vests, fire bunker gear, stethoscopes, you know, flak jackets, military helmets and they go in and they do it smiling. That young Marine that passed last week, she was photographed and quoted as saying, "I had my dream job," as she was holding a little Afghani baby and she was dead a few days later. She was so thrilled to be making $7 an hour helping people, right? Isn't that huge? Like, that to me says, that's a true sign of character right there.

Lex Fridman 44:42 And it's important for our society to elevate those people as heroes.

Lex Fridman 44:47 Let me ask you about firefighting. What do you think it means to be a great firefighter and a great man, a great human being in a situation like you were in, in 9/11?

Niels Jorgensen 45:03 You know, that's, that's kind of a broad term. Like some, you know, you can go to different firehouses and they might have a different definition of what they consider a great firefighter. But I think in the industry as a whole, if you're willing to put everyone else before you, especially your team, you know, as we say, there ain't no I in team, right? It's T-E-A-M and there's no I in there. It's all about those guys and girls next to you. If you can do that, that makes you pretty great. You, you put everything else second and you just run in and you run in with that team for strangers. You know, I, I've had the, the honor of, I spent almost 25 years of my adult life serving humanity, my country, my former city and the people I worked with were giants. And I don't mean that in height, I mean, but I mean that in spirit and in soul. I saw some of the most heroic, selfless acts and then I saw some of the behind the scenes that were so impressive. You know, we'd go to a fire around Christmas and the family would lose everything. And even when I was a cop, same thing. You'd come back either to the police precinct or the firehouse or the EMS station and someone would put together a collection and say, "Hey guys, hey Lex, 50 bucks a man. You know, the Smiths down the street just lost everything. We're going to go get some presents for the kids and some turkeys." And not one of those guys questioned that. And they were making 12.25 an hour and they still came up with 50 bucks for that family but see, that's the stuff the press won't show you, right? They don't want to show that humanity, that soft edge. See, when you're a warrior, you need to have this rough shield, this rough exterior 'cause if you don't, you die. But a true great firefighter or responder or cop or, or military personnel, they have that rough exterior but that soft underbelly that-

Lex Fridman 47:08 (laughs)

Niels Jorgensen 47:08 ... that, that, you know, like that-

Lex Fridman 47:09 I see it.

Niels Jorgensen 47:10 ... that heart, right?

Lex Fridman 47:10 It's there, yeah.

Niels Jorgensen 47:11 And, and, and that's, to me, the true great ones.

Lex Fridman 47:14 Yeah.

Niels Jorgensen 47:14 Some of them, they just have a hard time doing that, you know. There's no shame in, in showing your soft side, you know.

Lex Fridman 47:20 Well, you, you got your dad to say, "I love you" back. (laughs)

Niels Jorgensen 47:23 No, that right. That was huge.

Lex Fridman 47:24 That's impressive.

Niels Jorgensen 47:25 Man, that was, that took, that took me 22 years, Lex.

Lex Fridman 47:27 What-

Niels Jorgensen 47:28 You know what I mean? It's...

Lex Fridman 47:28 So you were a firefighter for 21, almost 22 years.

Niels Jorgensen 47:31 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 47:31 What, why, why did you become a firefighter?

Niels Jorgensen 47:33 Oh, my dad. I mean, I, I, I was five years old when I went to his firehouse and, and it was these, you know, at the time they looked like giants to me with mustaches and they, you know, and the trucks, trucks smelled like smoke and the gear smelled like smoke and the tires and the, you know, the diesel fuel and that I was like, "Oh-

Lex Fridman 47:52 (laughs)

Niels Jorgensen 47:52 ... this is, this is what I'm gonna do." And then, and then they bring you in the kitchen and they stuff you with ice cream and cake and every, you know, and then I go home to my mom, you know, shaking with a sugar cone and she's mad at my dad but yeah, it was just, oh, I was like, "I gotta do this." It was like, they were like a baseball team in a garage with a truck and these big tools and big coats and helmets and they were just laughing and having fun and I'm like, "Yeah man, I'm doing this." And I knew. I was obsessed with it. I mean, I, I was so pissed that the fireman's test came out when I was 14 and I couldn't take it. You had to be 18. And, and it, it was done, you know, you know, test was graded and whatever. So my dad, you know, now there's a, a copy circulating because it's, it's old now and he goes, "Yeah, yeah, this is what you're in for." And I took it. I, and I, I, you know, did it like it was real and I got a 99 and I was so pissed. I said, "Aw, I wanna get hired." He goes, "You can't. You're 14."

Lex Fridman 48:45 (laughs)

Niels Jorgensen 48:45 I'm like, but I, I wanted, I just wanted to do it so bad.... and, and I just wanted to help people. I just wanted to be like my dad, you know. Like, he'd come home smiling as tired as he was, and he fought fires in the '60s and '70s when the city was burning, and he'd... Still as exhausted as he was, he'd still be smiling. I wanted to smile at work, and I used to... I- I got paid to laugh and joke.

Lex Fridman 49:10 (laughs)

Niels Jorgensen 49:10 I got paid to cry sometimes. But, man, we laughed a lot. We really... It was... The, the chop-reicking is just, it's just unending, and it's great.

Lex Fridman 49:19 If you don't mind,

Lex Fridman 49:20 can you tell me... You were really kind enough to give me, uh, one of these shirts with 114. Can, can, can you tell me the story of 114-

Niels Jorgensen 49:29 Yeah, yeah.

Lex Fridman 49:29 ... of Tally Ho, of...

Niels Jorgensen 49:30 Um, I wear proudly. I served eight years in that command, and I, I didn't finish my career there. Um, I, I, I passed the lieutenant's test, and once you do, you have to leave. The story behind Tally Ho is, um... Back in World War II, there was this gentleman named Bad Jack Cower. And Jack was an Airborne ranger, and, uh, my father-in-law was also on the department, and he knew Jack. And Jack came home. Jack jumped Normandy, and-

Lex Fridman 49:59 Right.

Niels Jorgensen 49:59 ... uh, stormed up through the Battle of the Bulge and Bastogne, and, uh, he came back. Greatest Generation, as they all did, and they, they got jobs. They went right to work. And, uh, they were treated better back then, vets, right? And, uh, he got on the New York City Fire Department, and he got assigned to Ladder 114. And they first got, um, radios back then, and when Jack... He would drive the truck. You're up there with the officer, either lieutenant or captain, so if the boss is off the truck, you, you operate the radio for them as the driver. So, when they called him and they'd say, "Ladder 114, respond to 52nd Street, Third Avenue structure fire," you're supposed to get back and say, "Ladder 114, 10-4." But he refused to do that. He'd say, "Ladder 114, Tally Ho!"

Lex Fridman 50:47 (laughs)

Niels Jorgensen 50:47 'Cause that's what they'd yell when they'd jump out the plane. So, all these years later, it stuck, and, um, it's a little bit of a bragging right, but, uh-

Lex Fridman 50:55 (laughs)

Niels Jorgensen 50:55 ... out of 350 engine and truck companies in the whole New York City Fire Department, we're pretty much the only one that's, uh, called by their nickname on the radio and not their number. So, it tweaks some guys off in other places, you know? They go, "Hey, F you, Tally Ho," or you know, but it's, it's just, uh... Yeah, it's a great, great heritage, and, and we're really proud. And, uh, you know, the Shamrock was... You know, he was Irish, and a lot of the guys back then were, were Irish immigrants from the area, from the neighborhood. And they would actually take the, the firetruck to church on Sunday and park out front, and, and one guy would stay in it to hear the radio in case they got a call. So, uh, yeah, that's the proud history.

Lex Fridman 51:35 And you said that if I wear this around New York, am I getting a little bit of-

Niels Jorgensen 51:38 You might get a guy from the Bronx. "Hey-"

Lex Fridman 51:39 Sorry.

Niels Jorgensen 51:39 "... Tally Ho, screw you." You know? (laughs)

Lex Fridman 51:41 Sorry. (laughs)

Niels Jorgensen 51:41 But I mean, it's, it's all, it's all that good rivalry, you know? We, we like to, you know, we like to kid each other back and forth, you know. Uh, guys from Manhattan will say, "Yeah, you guys in Brooklyn, yeah, short buildings, tall stories."

Lex Fridman 51:54 (laughs)

Niels Jorgensen 51:54 And we're like, "Yeah, but you guys from Manhattan, tall store, tall buildings, no stories," you know?

Lex Fridman 51:59 (laughs)

Niels Jorgensen 51:59 Like, it's just all that, it's all that-

Lex Fridman 52:01 I love it.

Niels Jorgensen 52:01 ... jocular ball-breaking. It's good stuff, you know?

Lex Fridman 52:04 Um, let me

Lex Fridman 52:05 ask a, uh, I guess, a, a difficult question. If we just step back and leave events of 9/11. On the side of the people that flew into the towers, what do you take away from that day about the nature, about human nature, about good and evil? How, how did that change your view of the world?

Niels Jorgensen 52:29 I, I, I witnessed evil firsthand. Um, I remember later on, well into that night, when we were, uh, trying to help get those police officers out, I remember looking up at the building, Century 21, the, uh, store runs along the, uh, east side of the towers, and it was still there. And, you know, the debris had come down right almost to the edge. Century 21 is this old storied department store in New York City. And the sign was, was there, and it was still lit up. Like some of the neon was broken, but I think some of it was actually still lit up. And I just looked around, and I was like, "This is, this is a war zone." Like, "We're at war." And, and you know, we knew we were attacked. We heard the fighter planes. And, you know, back then, it wasn't the extensive communication network. I mean, we had cell phones, but they were the old school flip phones, and there was no news on 'em, and so... Plus, we, we didn't have signal down there anyway. I, I couldn't reach my family for like 12, 13 hours. And my dad had deployed down to the ferry terminal to retrieve bodies. Uh, he was retired, but he still went, and they deployed him to go be basically the morgue transport guys. They expected to be sending hundreds and thousands of bodies across on the ferry, and they set up these tractor trailers as a mobile morgue. And, uh, that never happened, because there were no bodies to take. They were all buried. Um, so I saw evil firsthand. I- I don't know how someone can inflict such ven- revenge or- or a vengeful act for, in the name of anything, in the name of a religion, in the name of a cause, in the name... Like, what the hell, you know?

Lex Fridman 54:14 Were you ever able to make sense of that, why men are able to commit such acts of terror in the days and the years after?

Niels Jorgensen 54:22 No, Lex, I haven't. I, you know... My mom's from Ireland, and, um, I still have a lot of family there. And, and you know, my, my great uncles, one of them was dragged out and shot and, um, he lived, but, but just based on a rumor that he was in the IRA. And I wasn't happy to see what happened to my mom's people, 'cause they, they were victimized and brutalized by England at that time. But...... blowing up bombs and, and killing innocents in the name of that. It doesn't make it right. I couldn't justify something like that. I, I can see, you know, I was a cop, I was a soldier, and you never want to take life in, in those jobs, but sometimes you have to. But you don't do it with a vengeance, you don't do it with a thirst. You do it because it's necessary for survival. When you do it out of a blood lust, out of a thirst, out of a cause, that's evil. There's something wrong with you. I, I have no... I, I, I respect life to the highest level. I, I mean, I, I'm very... Life is sacred to me. It's precious, it's beyond. It's not a commodity, it's a gift. But to take life just so randomly is so... There's something way wrong with that person. And, and maybe I'm a conflicted soul, but I would have no problem seeing someone like that put to death because they do not deserve life. Um, there's, there's many, uh, many children around this world that are being taught to hate someone who's different than them just because the, the person who's allegedly teaching them says so. I don't understand it.

Lex Fridman 56:14 Well, that starts with just having a basic, um, respect and appreciation of other, other h- human beings. And-

Niels Jorgensen 56:21 Yes.

Lex Fridman 56:22 ... that starts with empathy, so.

Niels Jorgensen 56:23 Yes.

Lex Fridman 56:24 And one of the reasons I love this country why, while joking that I'm Russian, uh, maybe you can say the same as you being Irish, uh-

Niels Jorgensen 56:32 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 56:33 ... is you're actually truly an American, and that's why I consider myself very much an American.

Niels Jorgensen 56:37 Yes.

Lex Fridman 56:37 And one of the reasons I love this country is it serves as a beacon. I still believe it serves as a beacon of hope and that empathy and love, uh, for the rest of the world, that, like, hate is, uh, not gonna get you far. That love-

Niels Jorgensen 56:54 No.

Lex Fridman 56:54 ... will get you a lot farther. And I, I still think, you know, sometimes it's easy to, um, see the press, uh, mainstream media, you could see social networks, because you can make so much money on division, sometimes, uh, because it makes so much money, it's easy to think, like, we're really divided. I honestly don't think we are. That's just like-

Niels Jorgensen 57:17 Oh, I agree.

Lex Fridman 57:17 ... the very surface level thing-

Niels Jorgensen 57:18 Thanks.

Lex Fridman 57:18 ... that we see on Twitter and so on.

Niels Jorgensen 57:20 It, it, it's that you're abs- you're 100% right. There's, there's people out there that are maximizing off this whole division, right? They want us divided, they want people angry because it sells. You know, a lot of these people that are in charge of certain organizations, well, they all seem to have nice cars and nice houses and nice vacations, and they're constantly trying to convince everybody that we hate each other.

Lex Fridman 57:47 Yeah.

Niels Jorgensen 57:47 To me, I'll use a fireman analogy, right? It's like a little campfire, and if you just let the embers flutter, they'll, they'll go out, but if you take a little cup of gasoline with those embers, (imitates explosion) it'll blow right up in your face. And that's what a lot of these politicians and a lot of these media folks are doing because there's something in it for them.

Lex Fridman 58:08 And I, I think they're, it's possible to defeat them with great leaders, with great spokespeople, with great human beings having a voice. One of the powerful things with the internet is, um, more and more people have a voice. And I ultimately believe i- uh, in, certainly in America, but in the world, the good people outnumber the assholes.

Niels Jorgensen 58:30 Oh, I agree there.

Lex Fridman 58:31 (laughs)

Niels Jorgensen 58:31 And, and, you know, there's days when I think the assholes are, are, you know, are overrunning us.

Lex Fridman 58:35 (laughs)

Niels Jorgensen 58:35 But you know what, um, I think what the downfall of the world is, is ego and arrogance and people that think they're better than that other guy. My parents raised me, you know, to be this way. My mom is such a sweet, gentle soul, she's an immigrant, she came here at 16 years old, she helps everybody but herself, right? She's just one of those people, she's sick, she's got Parkinson's, you'd never know it, and she's still flying around to her condo complex helping everybody, 'cause that's what she does. She loves to help people. But she's been in their shoes, she's been poor, she's sick, her husband was sick, she's, she's had all sorts of suffering and loss in her life. My granddad died when my mom was 10, and she was one of 10 children that survived out of 14. She knows hard times, but she so appreciates the good times and the goodness of this country.

Niels Jorgensen 59:35 You know, um, fire department and the police department, military, it taught me a lot about empathy and, and trying to really feel for someone and put yourself in their, their situation. Um, I remember years back, I was much younger fireman, probably, uh, five years on the job, and, uh, I was sent down to the next firehouse over to fill in, you know, we would get sent around randomly when they needed an extra guy, and someone came banging on the firehouse door and in the tenement apartment next door, they said there was an, an older woman that was unconscious. So we dispatched ourselves and we ran over with a medical kit, and it was an elderly woman laying there on the bed, and she was obviously not breathing, she was obviously in cardiac arrest, and an older gentleman that was holding her hand just, just un- inconsolably crying, and it turned out it was her husband, and they were married for 65 years and, um, normally, we would just respectfully ask the family members to just step aside and let us do our work, and I realized that he wouldn't leave her side, so I kind of gave the crew a wink, and they were doing CPR and what they had to, and, and I just......let him keep holding her hand, and I said, "Sir, if you, you know, could you just come over just a little bit so we can work?" And I held his hand as he held hers and, and I said, "Sir," I said, "Do you, do you have faith?" And he did, and I said, "Would you like to pray with me for your wife?" And he said, "I would like to." So we, we, we said the Lord's Prayer, and, and, you know, I just asked God to protect her and bless her and... I think he realized that she didn't have a chance, but we still gave her that, that chance, and we, you know, got her in the ambulance, and maybe, maybe it was wrong to try to make it look like we could save her, but, you know, you can't really not, not try. But the one beautiful moment was, he thanked me, and he was almost okay with it at that point. Like he wasn't as upset, he wasn't as distraught, because I tried to just humanize that situation of what we were trying to do. We were trying to do our best, but we also tried to be compassionate to his sadness, and... I-I just, I walked away just feeling so good, even though it was a tragic situation and she did pass, that, you know, he, he came by to, you know, thank us days later, and, um... It's just heartbreaking, but, you know, there's, there's just, it's just happens many, many times throughout the country every day. People get that opportunity as a responder to be that last bridge to the family and the loved one, and you only get that opportunity once sometimes, and you really have to... To me, it's like your moment to shine. You know, you could just be very, very dismissive and very rude, or you could be compassionate and just show, "Hey, I've, I've, I have a mom, I have a grandma, I have..." You know, and, and just in your mind pretend that that's who you're working on and that's who you're with.

Lex Fridman 1:02:47 So that moment of compassion, that moment of empathy, e- even if it's brief, can be the thing that saves the person from suffering, m- make the difference between suffering and overcoming in the face of tragedy.

Niels Jorgensen 1:03:02 Yes. Like I, I felt that even though obviously his loss was still huge, it, it just made it a little more bearable, and, um...

Lex Fridman 1:03:08 Yeah.

Niels Jorgensen 1:03:09 You know, try to just take his grief down to a lower level, and, uh, I- it made me feel, just feel really good about doing it.

Lex Fridman 1:03:17 That's a powerful way to see the job of a first responder. Of course you have to deal with certain aspects of the tragedy, but it's to provide somebody with that moment of compassion.

Niels Jorgensen 1:03:27 Yeah, and you know, I- I made it a little habit, because sometimes with faith, it's a little bit of a tricky subject, so every time I had someone who died, which unfortunately was many, many times, I would, I would just touch their hand and just say a little quick prayer, and just say, "Look, you know, I hope you're moving on to a better place. I hope if you did have faith that it's, it's, it's strong as you depart. And if you didn't have faith, I hope maybe at your last moment that you found some and, and you just found some closure." So that was just my little, my little ritual, I think. I just, you know, I felt it was important that that, that person, even though they were a stranger, just had someone there just sort of hoping for the best for them in their last

Niels Jorgensen 1:04:08 moments.

Lex Fridman 1:04:10 You mentioned cancer. You had a rare leukemia due to, um, all the work that you did at Ground Zero. Can you maybe talk to the experience of just breathing through those days, and what that was like, being unable to breathe, being overwhelmed by all of the dust in the air?

Niels Jorgensen 1:04:37 Yes. Um, the, the first day especially, um, we, we didn't have equipment, we ran... you know, we didn't have breathing apparatus, and then we were handed little 69 cent hardware store dust masks, you know, those little thin paint masks that would just get sweated up and fi- you know, stick into your face within 30 seconds, so you would, you just... They were useless. And what, what you wound up feeling like was that you, you swallowed a box of razor blades, because there was glass and there was cement, and it was just so caustic. And, uh, I remember that night, you know, when we went back just to get some medical relief, uh, for the few hours, we were walking up the hill to the firehouse, because they dropped us off like a block away down at Engine 201's and quarters, and, uh, one of the older firemen, as we're walking up the block, we're all struggling, we're all having a hard time breathing, and just, just... I mean, I felt like I was dying, literally. It, it's... it was pretty bad, and just remember the one guy going, "Now, we're all dead." And I said, "No, no, we made it. We made it." He goes, "No, you don't get it, kid." He said, "We just breathed in poison after poison for, for hours," and then that went into days, and then went into months. He says, "We're all dead, man. This is going to take us all." And I- I- I thought he was crazy, and then now years later, like starting in '03, '04, guys just started coming down with these really rare and advanced cancers, and then... It just, it just stopped being a coincidence with the number of guys. And they were young. Just one, one of the first guys, John McNamara, he was 33 or 34, and he came down colon cancer, and it, it took him quickly in 2000... It was in 2005, and... I- I kind of said to, you know, friends and family, I said, "I feel like I'm running through a minefield, and I, I wonder when my- I'm gonna step on my mine, 'cause everybody's gonna get sick." And I wasn't feeling well from 2008 on. Just, I just, I couldn't put a... I don't know, I couldn't put my finger on it, but I just wasn't right, and then 2011, uh, I- I failed my medical. Uh, my bloods, my bloods came back horrifically wrong, and they pulled me off the truck.But, uh, they strung me out for a month. The doctors in the fire department, one of them said my spleen was engorged because I was probably drinking myself to death like, as he said, most of the guys did after 9/11, which was pretty wrong of him and stereotyp- you know, just, just to stereotype and to categorize and... Guy couldn't have cared less. He just, he was so crude and nasty. And then my one doctor, who was my doctor on the outside, she... My blood pressure was 240/140. My spleen was about to rupture. She didn't even show up for my appointment and I went down, I passed out. The paramedics responded. She got into an argument with a paramedic because for big ego, and basically telling him there wasn't really anything wrong and he's looking at my paperwork going, "This guy's got leukemia." And he overrode her. He raced me out of there, down to Brooklyn Methodist. And, uh, the doctor, the charge physician, the ER physician, he says, "You're not leaving." He goes, uh, "You're in a bad way." And I said, "What is it?" He said, "I need for-" he goes, "I need, I need a little while to figure it out." He goes, "But you, you probably have one of a few different types of leukemia." He said, "I'll drill into your hip, take your marrow and find out." And he said, uh, "But in the meantime, we'll get the swelling on the spleen down with some sort of rapid medicines and whatnot." Because my spleen was about to rupture. I had no blood platelets left, which is your clotter. So I basically would have bled to death. And, uh, I found out from my team of doctors that I had about 48 hours to live. Um, and that really set me off. I was infuriated because I was telling them for a long time that I was sick. And...

Narrator 1:08:41 The doctors failed you. The few doctors in the beginning failed you.

Niels Jorgensen 1:08:44 Yeah. I felt very betrayed and, and other guys had died. And, uh, I, I had a... I had it out with that one doctor. I basically told her she was fired from my case and she's (laughs) pretty politically in charge person and I didn't care. I, I jeopardized my, my job for it because it was my life and I got the sense that she didn't re- it didn't really matter to her.

Narrator 1:09:07 Why for-

Niels Jorgensen 1:09:07 She didn't have any empathy, as you say.

Narrator 1:09:10 Y- Well, exact... So why for her, why for a few others was there not a, a special care, a special compassion for... first of all, all humans, but human beings in your position, especially a firefighter, a first responder? Um...

Niels Jorgensen 1:09:26 You know, Alex, I think what it is i- in the department, their title is just to get us back to duty as quickly as possible when we are either injured or sick because what happens then is your replacement is now on overtime. So you're out being paid on medical leave, but then they need to replace your spot and then that costs more money. So I think it's just behooves them to get as many personnel back. And especially during the summertime, you know, they look at it like, "Oh, maybe you want a few extra days off to, uh, you know, go to the beach." And, uh, this one doctor, he tipped his hand back as if like I was drinking an alcohol beverage. He says, "Hey, busy summer?" 'Cause I asked him to look at my spleen, which was sticking out of my abdomen like a football. And I said, "Excuse me, sir." I said, "How dare you assume that I'm dr- I'm abusing alcohol." Because, you know, alcohol abuse sometimes will, will present itself as the spleen is, is engorged and having an issue. So he automatically just assumed that that was my situation. Wouldn't even give me an exam and I was horrified. I was just, I was so angry. I mean, I wanted to punch this guy out. And I literally was screaming at him and, and an executive officer came in to diffuse it and sent me to another doctor and when I showed her my paperwork, she was horrified. She was like, "What did he say?" And she said, "Oh, okay, go, go to your regular doctor tomorrow," who was one of the department doctors and, and she just... It was just an indifference. It was like, I don't know. I- I- I was shocked at the lack of compassion. But you know what? That being said, I'm past it. I, you know, life moves on. The team of doctors I, I ended up with at Methodist and my subsequent oncologist, Dr. Peter Manzell, uh, world class, just incredible human being. My... Doctor Pete is just... I love him. I just, I love him like a friend, like a big brother, like a father, like a... Um, my, my primary oncology care nurse, Mike Nunez, was just incredible human being and, and he knew I was frightened because I had to get two and a half years of chemo, uh, compressed into seven days or I was dead. Um, these massive bags of chemo that never stopped and, and, uh, they, they burn the minute, the minute they went into your body, you felt like you were burning to death from the inside out and Mike, when Mike came in to hook me up, he said, um, "Look, I have to wear a hazmat suit. This stuff is so caustic that if it, if it drips, it'll burn whatever it touches." And I was like, "But Mike, you, you're going to put that in my body. How, how the hell is it not gonna kill me?" He says, "No, no, this is exactly what it's supposed to do. Trust me." So when he prepped the IV tube to get it flowing, it spilled onto the tube and the tube started to smoke and burn and I, I went, I said, "No effing way, Mike, you're not putting that in me. No way, no way."

Narrator 1:12:20 (laughs)

Niels Jorgensen 1:12:20 And he goes, "Listen, let me get another one. Let me start it over." And here he is wearing a hazmat suit looking at me and I'm going, "This is, this is insane." And he goes, he looked at me, he took my hand and he says, "Nels, if you don't take it, you're dead." He says, "You got those three kids. I- I'm sorry. I have no other option. You're dead." And I said, "All right, Mike. Okay." And he hooked me up and you know what? It was, it was like, you know, if you do drink alcohol and you have like a shot or one- you know, strong, strong type spirit and you start feeling that burn. Well, the minute he, he hit me in the vein, it just started going up my arm, burning and then up my shoulder.... across my neck, into my head, across the rest of my body, within a minute down to my feet, and I was writhing in pain for seven days. And I was praying to die. (deep breath) I was the seventh rescuer in six months to come down with the rarest leukemia there is. There's only 500 cases in all of North America a year. And seven of us came down in six months. Two guys died during treatment. Seven responders, police, fire. (deep breath) Two guys died in the first couple of days of the treatment 'cause it's so vicious, your liver, your heart, your kidneys, something will fail. And I was praying and I was praying, but I wanted to die. I was in so much pain. And I wouldn't take a painkiller because I- I know people with some issues and I- I just didn't want to go there. And finally, on the last day, I gave- I gave in, I said, "Please, I- I can't do this anymore." I was literally, like, jumping out of my skin and they gave me something. But it had burned out my mind, it burned out my body, I couldn't hear, I could barely see. It was vicious. But it worked. And my nurses especially, they just, they were so dedicated and devoted. And I- and I was not an easy patient 'cause I was in a lot of pain. It was- it was bad. It was... Drove my friends, my family crazy. It was just, it wasn't good. But on that first night, I had a quick vision of- of all these people that I loved that were dead, that died, and a lot of them in the Trade Center. And I saw Johnny, I saw- I saw friends I grew up with. The last one was my- my mother-in-law who had passed six months before and she died of... She was in a coma, she had a stroke. She had a horrible, horrible last six months of life and it wasn't fair because she was so religious, she went to church every day, devout Catholic woman. And all of a sudden I see her and she's smiling and, uh, we used to talk a lot, you know, it's the Irish thing, like to gab, the gift of gab. And, uh-

Lex Fridman 1:14:57 (laughs)

Niels Jorgensen 1:14:57 ... she used to call me her boyfriend 'cause we'd sit and talk for hours-

Lex Fridman 1:15:00 (laughs)

Niels Jorgensen 1:15:00 ... we'd talk about books and about movies and about food and I loved her. She was- she was my friend. And she's saying, you know, "My boyfriend's here," and- and all of a sudden she's smiling and she goes, "Hi, my boyfriend." And I says, "Nan, Nan, what- what are you doing?" She goes, "He's not ready. He doesn't want you. You gotta go back, you got things to do." And I'm like, "No, Nan, Nan, it hurts so much. Please, please take me." And she laughed. She goes, "No, no, not yet. I'll see you," and she just faded away. And one of my doctors on my team, she- she was... (deep breath) she had- she had a problem with religion. And that's okay, I understand that. You know, I'm not a- I'm not a preacher. I have a faith but I don't preach it, I don't push it. I just, you know, live and let live. So she sent in this shrink to see me. And I- and I was messed up from the chemo, but I- I- I knew what I was seeing, I knew what I was saying. And he was- he was a Jewish gentleman. He was a- a rabbi also in- in a synagogue.

Lex Fridman 1:15:59 Mm-hmm.

Niels Jorgensen 1:15:59 And I actually had responded in that district and he- he knew 114 would run into Borough Park, "Oh, yeah, I see Tally Ho, they come down the street." You know?

Lex Fridman 1:16:07 (laughs) .

Niels Jorgensen 1:16:08 And he asked me to tell him the story and I did. And, uh, he started laughing and he scared me now. I says, "Doc, am I really crazy?" He said, "No, no." He said, "I believe you, my friend." He said, "We- we share the same god." He goes, "We- we work in the same corporation, but in different departments." Right?

Lex Fridman 1:16:27 (laughs) Department, I like it.

Niels Jorgensen 1:16:28 And he says, he says, "You- you did see your mother-in-law." He says, "Your faith is that strong." He said, "I've had many patients express the same sentiments." He said, "So I want you to listen to her and fight and be strong." And he said, "So what else do you want to talk about?" I said, "Well, I don't know doc, am I that messed up?" He goes, "No, no." He goes, "They're paying me for an hour, it only took 20 minutes."

Lex Fridman 1:16:47 (laughs) .

Niels Jorgensen 1:16:48 So we watched the Yankee game together and that's-

Lex Fridman 1:16:50 Nice.

Niels Jorgensen 1:16:50 ... when was the last, you know? But- but it was just, again, it showed the human condition. Here- here's these two men of two totally different faiths, and yet, we shared that- that bond of faith. And he had empathy and he had sympathy. And he- he- he saw me in many other patients, so he just didn't assume, and he- and he gave me a fair shake, and I- and I will always be grateful to him for that.

Lex Fridman 1:17:15 Through any of this, the- the pain you had to go through with the leukemia but also the- the days of 9/11 after, did your faith get challenged?

Niels Jorgensen 1:17:26 You know, actually it was strange. I- I, there was times I was so angry, you know, it was a range of emotions, the anger, the denial, the depression, the this, the that. And this is the weirdest thing, it was- it was mostly, I knew my career was over and, uh, they retired me out of the job that- that Oct... I got sick in August, in that October they told me I was out. And by the time I was processed and, you know, used up my- my leaves and whatever you want to say it was, I was- I was officially retired in January of '02. And, uh, it was less than six months. And I'm there walking my dog one day, my rescue Greyhound who I miss, she was such a soul, God, she lived to be almost 13, Katie, and, uh, we're walking in the snow and I got the call I was retired and I looked at her and I'm like, "Katie what am I gonna do?"

Lex Fridman 1:18:15 (laughs) .

Niels Jorgensen 1:18:15 She just looked up and said, "We're gonna go on a lot more walks." You know? (laughs) And I was so sad.

Lex Fridman 1:18:20 (laughs) .

Niels Jorgensen 1:18:20 And I was so sad and I was so angry 'cause I lost my priesthood. I loved helping people. I really... Look, so I would've done it for free. I would never tell Mayor Bloomberg that, right?

Lex Fridman 1:18:30 (laughs) .

Niels Jorgensen 1:18:30 'Cause he- he- he's all about the book, right? But, like, you know, honestly I would've- I would've been a New York City fireman. I would've paid them to do it.

Lex Fridman 1:18:36 Yeah.

Niels Jorgensen 1:18:37 You know? And, uh, I wasn't allowed anymore. That's it. Y- you have over 20 years and you have cancer. You know, back when my dad got sick, they'd let you hang around for 10, 12 years in an office, but-

Lex Fridman 1:18:48 Yeah.

Niels Jorgensen 1:18:48 ... not now. Now it's all about the bottom line. And, uh-... but I was more depressed about losing a job than almost losing my life, like as crazy as that sounds, you know. And it just, uh...

Lex Fridman 1:19:00 It was more than a job. I mean, it's, um, it's a way of life.

Niels Jorgensen 1:19:04 Oh, man. Yeah.

Lex Fridman 1:19:05 It's, uh, it's also is your family, your father. You're, you're carrying the torch of your fathers.

Niels Jorgensen 1:19:10 Oh, my friend, I love my friends. I mean, I love, we work 24-hour shifts together. You cook, you clean, you break each other's-

Lex Fridman 1:19:16 (laughs)

Niels Jorgensen 1:19:16 ... jobs relentlessly. I mean, it was just, I love those guys so much. I mean, I, I hope that my kids and anyone that I know and care about, I hope they can experience the bond of that brotherhood that I experienced in my life. It was so, God, I, I, I would give anything to have it back, just, yeah.

Lex Fridman 1:19:37 Can I ask you about New York? So when I, I've, uh, unfortunately I've never lived in New York. I visit, I've always wanted to live there for a bit. Obviously, it's a very different e- experience to have really lived in New York for many, many years. But there, there's, uh, a few friends of mine that are from, they got similar accent as yours-

Niels Jorgensen 1:19:56 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 1:19:57 ... that, uh, that are a little bit saddened, perhaps it's temporary, but perhaps not, they don't seem to think so, of what New York has become, especially with COVID. It's losing some of the spirit of New York. Um, do you have that sense? Do, do you have a hope for this city that has been so defining to what is America?

Niels Jorgensen 1:20:20 You know, uh, my heart's broken. I had moved to New Jersey many years ago and, but I still have close attachment to New York. My, my parents are still there, many, many family members. Um, and I've since now moved to Tennessee. Uh, I needed to go somewhere quiet. I wanted to heal my fractured soul. And, uh, I'm, I'm in the middle of a beautiful farming rural area in Middle Tennessee. And, um, so they'd probably call me a sellout back in New York for leaving. But, I- it's not the same city, and it's sad, um, you know. I'll refrain from the politics and the, um-

Lex Fridman 1:20:57 Sure.

Niels Jorgensen 1:20:57 ... finger-pointing, but it's a mess compared to what it was. And, um, you know, I did Broadway theater security for many years. And I started to see it slide, like,