Oliver Anthony: Country Music, Blue-Collar America, Fame, Money, and Pain | Lex Fridman Podcast #469

1. 0:00 – 1:14

   Introduction

   1. LFLex Fridman0:00

      The following is a conversation with Oliver Anthony, singer/songwriter from Virginia, who first gained worldwide fame with his viral hit, Rich Men North of Richmond. He became a voice for many who are voiceless, with his songs speaking to the struggle of the working class in modern American life. His legal name is Christopher Anthony Lunsford. Oliver Anthony was his grandfather's name, and so Chris used this name as a dedication to his grandfather, and to 1930s Appalachia, where his grandfather was born and raised. "Dirt floors, seven kids, hard times," as Chris says. He's happy to be called either one, by the way. I've gotten to know Chris more since the recording of this conversation. He truly is as he appears online and in his songs: down to earth, humble, and a good man who deeply feels the pain of the downtrodden. This is the Lex Fridman Podcast. To support it, please check out our sponsors in the description. And now, dear friends, here's Christopher Lunsford, or as many of you know him as, Oliver Anthony.

2. 1:14 – 5:17

   Open mics

   1. LFLex Fridman1:14

      So, I was texting you, uh, last night, uh, sitting at- at an open mic listening to a guy perform Great Balls of Fire. Uh, like I told you, he was giving everything he got for, like, five people in the audience plus me.

   2. OAOliver Anthony1:26

      Well, you were there. I didn't- I'd have been doing it too if you were out there. Be like, "Oh, that's Lex Fridman."

   3. LFLex Fridman1:30

      No, man. He was, uh, this big dude on the keyboard just everything. Sweaty, long hair. You could tell, like, he was there in his own little world. I love the courage of that, of just giving it everything. I don't think he wants to be famous. I don't think he wants anything in life except to be there and to play, like, his heart out.

   4. OAOliver Anthony1:49

      Yeah.

   5. LFLex Fridman1:49

      That's why I love open mics. Like, some people still aspire to be famous when they play open mics, but some people, maybe they've given up or maybe they never wanted to be famous. They're just there for the pure artistry of it, so.

   6. OAOliver Anthony2:02

      Yeah.

   7. LFLex Fridman2:03

      And you said you started out playing open mics. What? At shitty bars. What was that like?

   8. OAOliver Anthony2:07

      Well, yeah. Real quick before I forget too. A great example of a- of a guy who had that same mindset and was able to maintain it really well is this mandolin player named Johnny Stats in West Virginia. To me, he's one of the best and he's wo- won all these awards and stuff, and he still works for UPS full-time. And, like, he could go out and tour with... Play mandolin for anybody he wanted to, but he... But man, when you meet Johnny, like, you can tell he's just got this, um, this joy in him that I don't think he would have if he... But as far as me with the open mics, um, yeah. It was just, (laughs) it was, a lot of them were really em- a lot of them were embarrassing. There was a couple, I remember there was times where I'd go up and try to do... I'd do, like, one song. I'd get, like, halfway through the next song, and I'd be so nervous by that point I didn't, I couldn't remember any of the words. (laughs) And there's a couple times I... I remember there was one time (laughs) in particular that I just w- I just walked off halfway through the song, put my guitar in the case, and just w- I just left. I didn't even, like, couldn't even stay in there. Just total, you know, just total freakout, but...

   9. LFLex Fridman3:10

      Just embarrassment?

   10. OAOliver Anthony3:11

       And I never drank in bars either. Like, I'm not a f- I wasn't really a social drinker, so I was just there to try to do the mi- So it was k- it was kinda... I was a little out of place anyway. I feel kinda out of place in a bar to start with, so.

   11. LFLex Fridman3:22

       Yeah. This is back when you could smoke in bars. There's a whole vibe to it.

   12. OAOliver Anthony3:25

       Yeah.

   13. LFLex Fridman3:25

       People smoking, drinking. And, yeah, definitely, you know, bombing in a place like that when the audience is...

   14. OAOliver Anthony3:33

       (laughs)

   15. LFLex Fridman3:33

       Is, is there's, like, five people and they're bored.

   16. OAOliver Anthony3:36

       Yeah, there was one like that. It was in Matoca. It wasn't that far from where I lived. The place is gone now, but, uh, it was about as big as the room we're in here, if that, you know. Like, the- the ceiling tiles were yellow from where everybody had smoked in it since the beginning of time.

   17. LFLex Fridman3:50

       Yeah.

   18. OAOliver Anthony3:50

       But, like, yeah, that was my little spot, those little ku- type of spots.

   19. LFLex Fridman3:53

       You did covers? What'd you play? What was your go-to?

   20. OAOliver Anthony3:56

       Back then it was, like, uh, I don't know, Fishing in the Dark, Nitty Gritty Band, or like, um... Any of those old Hank, like Hank Jr songs, like any of those bar type of... Um, David Allen Coe, like You Never Call Me By My Name. Any of that kind of stuff. And I haven't even played any of those in forever now, but that was... Any of those ones where you get people singing along and stuff, that's what I'd always try to do, you know?

   21. LFLex Fridman4:18

       Yeah. That song you performed, Take Me Home, uh, Country Road, how's that go? West Virginia?

   22. OAOliver Anthony4:23

       Yeah.

   23. LFLex Fridman4:24

       That's a good song.

   24. OAOliver Anthony4:24

       John Denver was just, uh, one of those guys that it's, who knows where he woulda went long term if he wouldn't have passed, but...

   25. LFLex Fridman4:32

       You know what's a fun song that I- I love, I shouldn't, but I love, is, uh, what is it? Uh, like, Thank God I'm a Country Boy (laughs) .

   26. OAOliver Anthony4:41

       I think that's what I liked about John Denver, was he was a little bit, like, he let himself be a little bit corny in the spirit of, like, having fun with it. Like, um, great example, there's this old- older guy that not a lot of people have heard of named Roy Clark, but, um, my farm's, like, a mile down the road from Roy Clark's old farm. But he, he used to be on Hee Haw. Do you- I don't know if you've ever heard of that old show from, like, the '60s or whatever, but crazy dude. He could pick any instrument up. Like, there's videos on YouTube of him, but he would just sit there and just pick anything up and just rip it to death. But he would always just be real silly about it. He never had, like, he never took it too, never took himself too seriously, you

3. 5:17 – 14:24

   Mainstream country music

   1. OAOliver Anthony5:17

      know?

   2. LFLex Fridman5:17

      Some people go to the fun place, some people go to the dark place.

   3. OAOliver Anthony5:20

      Yeah.

   4. LFLex Fridman5:20

      And so, you know, country can do both. You- you- you more often go to the dark place.

   5. OAOliver Anthony5:26

      Yeah.

   6. LFLex Fridman5:26

      To- to the- to the pain.

   7. OAOliver Anthony5:28

      Yeah. Well, especially some of the new songs that are coming out. The- they'll be probably not coun- I mean, I don't know what they'll be. I don't know. What is country anymore anyway? I don't know that many people who listen to the type of music that I grew up listening to probably listen to country radio anymore anyway. Like, I think there's- there's quite a lot of people who don't- who have sort of disowned that space, you know? In commercialized country, you only really get what sells, which un- and a lot of what sells isn't necessarily what matters.

   8. LFLex Fridman5:58

      Well, you had that whole experience where they-... take what you recorded and polish it, quote unquote, try to make it perfect, and in so doing, destroy the soul of the thing. And so probably that happens with these big artists. They're so famous, it's like a machine, and so-

   9. OAOliver Anthony6:13

      Yeah.

   10. LFLex Fridman6:14

       ... what the machine does is it over-polishes things. And so the raw, like, power of the person, the uniqueness of the person, the soul of the person is gone if you do that.

   11. OAOliver Anthony6:26

       Yeah. Well perf- I think professionalism in gen- like, applying the tastic- the tactics of corporate America to anything that is-

   12. LFLex Fridman6:34

       Yeah.

   13. OAOliver Anthony6:35

       ... baseline artistic is not gonna end well.

   14. LFLex Fridman6:37

       They're all individually brilliant, but together this corporate speak comes out.

   15. OAOliver Anthony6:42

       Yeah.

   16. LFLex Fridman6:43

       Just the soul of the people dissipates. It like disappears. Why are you all pretending that, like, life is not terrible and beautiful and, like, you're both scared shitless and excited, and this guy's going through a divorce, this person just fell in love? Like you're-

   17. OAOliver Anthony7:04

       Yeah.

   18. LFLex Fridman7:04

       ... forgetting the intensity of life-

   19. OAOliver Anthony7:07

       Uh-huh.

   20. LFLex Fridman7:08

       ... with this corporate, like, nine to five, like, "Hi, John. It's great to see you today."

   21. OAOliver Anthony7:14

       (laughs)

   22. LFLex Fridman7:15

       "Oh, you too. You as well."

   23. OAOliver Anthony7:18

       Yeah.

   24. LFLex Fridman7:18

       "You as well." But when I look at it, I'm like, "Why am I whining?" I, I feel like a Bukowski type character. Because like, they're all really nice, they're all good people, but like something is gone when you have this corporate machine.

   25. OAOliver Anthony7:31

       Well, they're, they're there to fill a role contractually, and if they, I think if they bring too many of their human elements into that, then they jeopardize losing their sense of security. And it'll, it's all just out of fear, it's out of fear of losing your job. I mean, it's the reason why all the songs say Oliver Anthony and not Christopher Lunsford on 'em, you know? Like, it's fear of ... It's so difficult to, especially now it seems, and I mean, who knows? I didn't gr- I (laughs) was never around in the '40s or '50s and work a job, I'm sure they were probably pretty miserable back then. But, you know, they talk about now like how difficult it is, like, the, the impossibility of having a single family household or anything else. But, like, when you find a decent paying job that you can do without it just torturing you every day, that's a, that's a pretty important thing now, you know? Like, and so it, it, it's pretty easy to just, it's pretty easy to kinda turn yourself into a robot for eight or ten hours a day out of fear of ... It's like, you don't want to be yourself too much, because maybe part of yourself isn't something that's accepted in this like dystopian nightmare that you go to work at every day, and so you just gotta do your best to just not step on any toes or do anything that, that makes you stand out too much, you know? And now it's like, now, like, when you scroll through some of these videos of people like, (sighs) the big th- even when I was still like, when I was still working my lame job, it was like there was this whole big thing of people talking about quiet quitting or something like that where they were just gonna go to work (laughs) but not really do anything, but ...

   26. LFLex Fridman8:58

       That hurts me so much. That hurts me when you just stop when you're there, but you're not really there. That makes me so sad.

   27. OAOliver Anthony9:05

       Yeah, so then they wonder, these companies just slowly kinda fall apart and disintegrate because they're so worried about structure, and, you know, like, I mean, God man, even in, even in America today, our culture has becom- because so many big corporations own and manage everything that we live under, like food, agriculture, healthcare, like, social media, it's all in corporate structures that it's almost like a lot of the problems we find ourselves in now as society I think are like, it's just because of, it's almost like H- corporate HR has been implemented into our whole thought process of everything, you know? It's like, um, I think that's kinda what you're touching on though, it's like, (sighs) it's, it's hard to be, it's hard to be a human and be a good little corporate employee at the same time. Um, and as our whole society moves more into like becoming a cor- like basically one big corporation, it's like you don't wanna piss the HR lady off, so it's a lot easier for me to just beep boop, we're all sorta just turning, we're all turning into robots, you know?

   28. LFLex Fridman10:05

       Oh, and that, and that's what the, uh, uh, I've talked to, to great engineers about this. Uh, Jim Keller's a legendary engineer. Elon, Elon Musk is another example. But you need that, I don't know what's a nice term for it, but you need the asshole, because y- you wanna get to the ground truth of things, to the first principle-

   29. OAOliver Anthony10:23

       Mm-hmm.

   30. LFLex Fridman10:23

       ... of things, like how do we simplify, how do we make it more efficient, how do we move faster, how do we get shit done? And that has no place for this kind o- polite speak. And then, you know, other great team members swoop in and like repair the damage that the tornado has done. (laughs)
4. 14:24 – 20:20

   Fame

   1. LFLex Fridman14:24

      it. By the way, all the love in the world to Jocko. He's great. I've been going through, uh, lots of ups and downs in life, lots of low points for myself over the past, uh, shit, three years really, but, um, uh, recently especially. And he always texts (laughs) in his, in his (laughs) very high testosterone way of like, (laughs) of like, "You good, bro?" (laughs) Just checking in. I mean, he's a good man. He's a good man. He's, uh, obviously an inspiration to millions of people, but also just, um, is a good human being himself, so.

   2. OAOliver Anthony14:59

      Maybe one sim- one thing that we felt similarly, I'm just... I, I would imagine you way more than me, is just feeling like, like, wow, I have the ability to influence or the ability to, to be- to- to either bring truth or to improve people's lives, or, or, you know, every word that you say sometimes matters so much. And you're just like, "Man, I'm an idiot." Like, "I don't..."

   3. LFLex Fridman15:22

      Yeah.

   4. OAOliver Anthony15:23

      Like, "I don't," (laughs) you know? Like, "I woulda never guessed." I mean, I, we were kind of talking about that b- before about like it wou- woulda never guessed that it woulda turn- that this would have turned into all this. But it's, it is a, it is a, it is a weight that you bear whether you really even acknowledge it or not, you know, like, um...

   5. LFLex Fridman15:38

      Yeah, and I think it's like, you know, the s- the songs you've created, they, uh, speak to the human condition, to the struggle of, uh, everyday working people in a society that has the elites that try to take advantage of those working people. And you're just speaking, through your music, those truths of how life is. And then that has a huge impact on a lot of people that's really positive, but then you also get attacked and misrepresented and lied about from different angles. And just the turmoil, the intense chaos of that, y- it disorients, it, it disorients me. Like, to be attacked by very large number of people, to be lied about, to be... Just the, it- it- it... Because I love people and just have, I have a general optimism about humanity, it just disorients me. Like, um, it gives me this feeling like... I generally, just like you said, think of myself as kind of an idiot, not really knowing what I'm doing. And when a lot of people tell you that you're correct, you don't know what you're doing, you start to, like, wanna hide. You wanna hide from the world, hide from yourself. And then there's also just the, the chemistry of the brain. It's like-

   6. OAOliver Anthony17:03

      Mm-hmm.

   7. LFLex Fridman17:03

      ... y- you shake up the brain a little bit, it starts getting, it starts getting weird. And it... So, it can get... On many, uh, fronts, it can get real lonely. When you're getting attacked, when you're kind of fucking things up, in many ways, it can get lonely.

   8. OAOliver Anthony17:20

      Mm.

   9. LFLex Fridman17:21

      Yeah, so it's been... And so you get a text from Jocko like, "You good?" Yeah. Yeah. And then I, I mean, I have good friends. Andrew Huberman's been great. Rogan's been great.

   10. OAOliver Anthony17:31

       Well, you know, you... Lex, however many years ago, was in a different place in society than Lex is now. And so it's like every conversation you have or every relationship you have is inherently different, even if you aren't any different. Friends that you had from before maybe or even just new people you meet, your interactions with them are gonna be a lot different than if this wasn't a thing. And so s-

   11. LFLex Fridman17:52

       Yeah.

   12. OAOliver Anthony17:53

       It's like that, that can be tricky too. A- when you've spent your whole life, you know, from the time you're three years old and you're starting to play with other kids and, like, developmentally learning, like, how to share and how to interact, and you're on the, you're playing o- y- you know-... you're playing in the playground with kids and learning how to, like, set rules and boundaries and how to, like, basically fit in a society and, like ... So you have this whole learning pattern up until whatever point in time when, when success happens, and then it's like all that shifts pretty dramatically all ... you know, in a relatively short period of time. And there ... So, like, how d- do you, how do you think, like, managing your previous, like, previous friendships or your li- ... like, you know, how ... has that been tricky for you? Or, like, how does that-

   13. LFLex Fridman18:34

       Yeah, it's been, it's been tough. Uh, you know, I value deep, close, long-term friendships. And, yeah, but, I mean, I have amazing friends, but they certainly do treat me a little different. They, they bust my balls s- noticeably less.

   14. OAOliver Anthony18:50

       Yeah.

   15. LFLex Fridman18:50

       Right?

   16. OAOliver Anthony18:50

       And you need, you need that sometimes.

   17. LFLex Fridman18:52

       I need... I... J- not sometimes.

   18. OAOliver Anthony18:54

       (laughs)

   19. LFLex Fridman18:54

       All the time. First of all, it's how dudes show love, is making fun of each other, at least my friends.

   20. OAOliver Anthony19:02

       Yeah.

   21. LFLex Fridman19:02

       Like (laughs) th-

   22. OAOliver Anthony19:03

       Yeah.

   23. LFLex Fridman19:03

       You know, when you s- when you watch ... man, I'm gonna get in trouble, but when you w- watch like-

   24. OAOliver Anthony19:08

       (laughs)

   25. LFLex Fridman19:08

       ... women interact, they're often, like, really positive towards each other. Like, "Oh, you look great." This, da-da-da. They're like, da-da-da. Yeah.

   26. OAOliver Anthony19:15

       Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

   27. LFLex Fridman19:15

       (laughs) When you watch dudes interact-

   28. OAOliver Anthony19:17

       (laughs)

   29. LFLex Fridman19:17

       ... like close friends, they're just like, I mean, busting each other's balls nonstop, making fun of each other. Uh-

   30. OAOliver Anthony19:23

       (laughs)
5. 20:20 – 29:10

   Music vs politics

   1. LFLex Fridman20:21

      when you step into politics a little bit, and you apparently stepped into politics even though you never meant to, you're not a political person, that, that world is like, "What the fuck?" It's very intense, especially at an intense moment in history, in a, in an extremely divided country, so ...

   2. OAOliver Anthony20:41

      Yeah, like saying that I'm not in politics, people are like, "Well, of course you're in politics." And I don't know whether I am or not, but it just ... Um, I do think a lot of people in politics, like, as far as the people who sit on the internet all day and argue about stuff on X or on whatever, you know, Facebook and all, like, I do think their heart is in it for the right reasons. They observe that there's a lot of things wrong in the world that they'd like to see different. It's just how do you get those people out of a ... how do you get those people out of this four-by-four square and, like, really ... Like, they're, they're entrapped in a, in the same kinda box that the people at Boeing might be with that stru- ... you know, it's too ... mm, there n- ... it's the tornado metaphor. I mean, it's a br- ... but it applies in politics too. Like, the- there needs to just be a tornado through politics, and we need to figure, we need to just like lay all this other stuff aside and just figure out what's really pissing everybody off, what's really affecting our quality of life. A lot of the times we're arguing over the symptoms of problems instead of identifying the problems, if that makes any sense. I mean, that (laughs) if Jordan Peterson were here, he would tell us about fire-

   3. LFLex Fridman21:47

      Yeah.

   4. OAOliver Anthony21:47

      ... and how important that is, and burning a- ... and, like, it d- but it is all the same.

   5. LFLex Fridman21:50

      Water and fire and ice-

   6. OAOliver Anthony21:51

      (laughs)

   7. LFLex Fridman21:52

      ... metaphor. And there would definitely be a connection to the Bible, and then-

   8. OAOliver Anthony21:56

      Yeah.

   9. LFLex Fridman21:56

      ... we would receive a three-hour lecture, and it would be profound.

   10. OAOliver Anthony21:57

       But it's true. But it is ... it's all true. Like, that's-

   11. LFLex Fridman21:59

       Yeah, it's all true.

   12. OAOliver Anthony22:00

       (laughs)

   13. LFLex Fridman22:00

       It is all, it's all 100% accurate. Yeah, that's the crazy thing. But it all ties into that same thing. Like, you, um ... Yeah, in politics now, it's almost like there's a rule book that you have to follow, and if you ... you can't agree with this unless you also agree with that. You know, it's like ... and maybe it's like the places, the way that we receive information about what's going on in the political landscape is always so biased, and it's like the ... Well, it's, it's contingent upon this algorithm, this, like, algor- algorithmic system that we live under where we're fed ... it's like we're almost fed certain subcateg- and it's, and it's easy to fall into that because you don't like hearing things you disagree with, and so it's a lot easier to just turn the TV on or go on Facebook and look at whatever page posts things that you know you're gonna consistently agree with every day, and that's not gonna challenge the way you think in any little way. You know, or, or like expands your thinking at all. It's, it's easy to just f- ... it's kinda like a, it's a cult-like type of thing. It's like (laughs) , you know, here's ... this is what we all agree with, and if you don't then gong it, you know? Like ... But it, it doesn't w- ... it ... we're far too complicated for it to really work that way. Well, this actually relates to one of my favorite things in your conversation with Jordan, where you're just (laughs) where you, where you're just shooting the shit about, like, uh, playing live music, and he goes to Kierkegaard.

   14. OAOliver Anthony23:17

       (laughs) Yes.

   15. LFLex Fridman23:18

       Just, like, Soren Kierkegaard, the philosopher.

   16. OAOliver Anthony23:21

       (laughs) Yes.

   17. LFLex Fridman23:22

       (laughs) I, I love Jordan so much.

   18. OAOliver Anthony23:23

       I do too.

   19. LFLex Fridman23:24

       (laughs) He just goes to Carl Jung-

   20. OAOliver Anthony23:26

       (laughs)

   21. LFLex Fridman23:27

       ... and Nietzsche, um. And there, this idea from Kierkegaard that the crowd is untruth. So when you ... th- there's elements to the crowd that loses the humanity and the honesty of a, an individual that makes up the crowd, 'cause the default incentive of the crowd is to conform to some kinda narrative. It's like a, it's like a distributed system that arrives at a narrative and the narrative c- holds control over that crowd as opposed to the individual humans who are thinking for themselves and being honest with their own thoughts and realities and so on. And so that ... he, he was saying that as a reason, from a communication perspective ...... to speak to individuals in the crowd, not to the crowd.

   22. OAOliver Anthony24:16

       Hmm.

   23. LFLex Fridman24:17

       So from the performer perspective, the moment you speak to the crowd, you're speaking to the lie that is the crowd, according to Søren Kierkegaard. It's pretty hardcore.

   24. OAOliver Anthony24:25

       Mm-hmm.

   25. LFLex Fridman24:26

       Kierkegaard is pretty hardcore. Jordan is pretty hardcore.

   26. OAOliver Anthony24:28

       But that is true. I mean, and, but spec- but sp- specifically in my case, I mean, really, it applies more than it probably does in a lot of cases with crowds and music. You know, talking about Richmond, I wasn't necessarily even excited that Richmond did as well as it did. It was like, in a way, it was almost like alarming that it did so well, you know? And so those crowds that show up, like, maybe they do like my music, but I also think they're there for something... There is something bigger about it. I mean, I, I wish I woulda done a better job of having people there at shows to capture some of those crowds I had in '24, man.

   27. LFLex Fridman25:08

       You mean the size, the intensity?

   28. OAOliver Anthony25:09

       The intensity. Like, it was revolutionary almost.

   29. LFLex Fridman25:13

       Song of Revolution. You know, I think of Redemption Song from Bob Marley. Like, that song, it just connected with people. There's something there.

   30. OAOliver Anthony25:22

       Well, and, and so many people identified different element- like I said, it goes back to when we were kind of talking when we first got here, but it was cr- it was crazy how it was almost like at the beginning, with, along with the scrutiny and some of the other things, it was a lot of different people, like, almost fighting over me or fighting over it. Like, 'cause it resonated with different... It gr- it resonated with people who voted differently than each other, which is, which is probably a pretty terrifying thing if you're, if you're in the business of keeping people divided and angry at each other. So, uh, it wa- you know, it was a... (sighs) It was one of the fir- one of the only times that I can think where there was that, that much of a sense of u- unity among people who otherwise wouldn't. I mean, like, I mean, I think about 9/11 when I was a kid. I was in fourth grade, but God, man, people were just like, people just put everything aside there for a little while, and it was kinda, it was kinda like there's bigger problems that just aren't in our face, and if w- man, if they're in your face for, just for a second or two, you realize like (sighs) it's, (sighs) it's hard to, it's harden your mind to create a, a graph that's got like all these... But, you know, we argue about a lot of these problems, but if you were to really look at 'em, like, if you really just stand back and look at all the problems we spend time focusing about on the internet versus all the things that are affecting us, like that really, and probably at our core even piss us off, it's f- it's gotta be very disproportionate. And like, the reason it got the reaction it did is because we all, like, no matter what it is that we're upset about or what we think needs to be different in the world or our opinions of things or how we're raised or what our parents taught us, it's like I think we all feel a little bit outta control in this new society. We all feel like we're probably... We probably all feel like we're falling into this kinda like corporate power structure where none of us, where we all, we all are just robots. We're all just... We're not allowed to be ourselves and be human almost, you know?
6. 29:10 – 39:20

   Rich Men North of Richmond

   1. OAOliver Anthony29:10

   2. LFLex Fridman29:10

      What was the process of writing that song? I mean, it really spoke to the pain of, and the anger of millions of people. So there's magic there.

   3. OAOliver Anthony29:20

      Yeah.

   4. LFLex Fridman29:20

      Was, uh, wh- how many, how many edits? (laughs) How many like lines did you write? Were there any lines that you were like tormented by, haunted by, "Come back. Should I do it this way or this way or that?"

   5. OAOliver Anthony29:32

      Do you, do you have a w- I don't know. Do you, can you pull TikTok up on this? So if you go to my page, so if you go down-

   6. LFLex Fridman29:39

      There's some chickens.

   7. OAOliver Anthony29:41

      Go, yeah, go down pre-Richmond. You can see the original version of Richmond where I put it up.

   8. LFLex Fridman29:46

      This is so cool to see-

   9. OAOliver Anthony29:48

      Man, where-

   10. LFLex Fridman29:48

       ... the evolution.

   11. OAOliver Anthony29:48

       There it is. Okay, so that's r- that's (clears throat) , if you play that, that's-

   12. LFLex Fridman29:52

       I have too many unfinished songs?

   13. OAOliver Anthony29:53

       Yeah, cl- play that. Click that and play it.

   14. I've been selling my soul-

   15. LFLex Fridman29:58

       (laughs)

   16. OAOliver Anthony29:59

       7/24.

   17. ... working all day, double time workers-

   18. LFLex Fridman30:01

       Oh, wow.

   19. OAOliver Anthony30:02

       ... for bullshit pay-

   20. LFLex Fridman30:04

       Wow.

   21. OAOliver Anthony30:04

       So I can sit out here, waste my life away. Dragged back home to drink my troubles away.

   22. And if you read through this, it's so funny. Everybody's like, "You're about to blow up." (dog barks) But that's-

   23. What the world's gotten to people like me. People like you.

   24. That's all I had. So I had-... I had just that.

   25. LFLex Fridman30:25

       You should probably finish this one. Might be real popular. (laughs)

   26. OAOliver Anthony30:29

       (laughs)

   27. LFLex Fridman30:29

       That's the post from a few days later.

   28. OAOliver Anthony30:30

       (clears throat) That was in, that was in-

   29. LFLex Fridman30:33

       Oh-

   30. OAOliver Anthony30:33

       ... July.
7. 39:20 – 54:08

   Popularity, money, and integrity

   1. OAOliver Anthony39:20

   2. LFLex Fridman39:20

      We got to talk about that. So, you posted the, the song Richmond, North of Richmond on August 8th, 2023.

   3. OAOliver Anthony39:27

      I remember I was at work that day, when it went up, yeah.

   4. LFLex Fridman39:30

      So, it blew the fuck up, straight to number one on the charts, tens of millions of views and listens. Uh, and a few days later, on August 17th, you made a post that I thought was pretty gangster. It was beautiful and gangster. Uh, so one, one of the things you said is, "It's been difficult as I browse through the 50,000 plus messages and emails I've received in the last week. The stories that have been shared paint a brutally honest picture. Suicide, addiction, unemployment, anxiety, depression, hopelessness, and the list goes on." And then you went on to write, "People in the music industry give me blank stares when I brush off $8 million offers. I don't want six tour buses, 15 tractor trailers and a jet. I don't want to play stadium shows. I don't want to be in the spotlight. I wrote the music I wrote because I was suffering with mental health and depression. These songs have connected with millions of people on such a deep level because they have been sung by someone feeling the words in the very moment they were being sung. No editing, no agent, no bullshit, just some idiot and his guitar. The style of music that we should have never gotten away from in the first place." So, huge props for that, for walking away from lucrative multimillion dollar record deals and, I'm sure, the money that was just coming your way. Huge props, you know? Moments happen where, you know, the world tests you, and integrity is what you do in those moments. So, huge props for that. What was your philosophy? What was your thinking behind that?

   5. OAOliver Anthony41:15

      It was all those messages I got. I mean, you can see it in the comments sections of a lot of the videos after everything ha- But people just like felt this spark, like, like, "Wow, like maybe we actually have a chance to ... Like, maybe we actually do have some kind of power," you know. Like, those people put that song there, nobody else, and like gave me the opportunity to make ... Even without signing anything, I was still able to make millions of dollars and have financial freedom, and like I just, I just felt like ... I felt like if I was gonna do anything like that, that I'd be, I'd be betraying ... Like I would be taking those people and, and almost betraying them somehow, you know. Like, uh, like they ... I hate the big machine just like everybody else, and I ... The last thing I'd want to do is be, is ever support it or be a part of it. Like, I want to watch it crash and burn, you know? Like ...

   6. LFLex Fridman42:10

      See, this is the really important thing is, whether it was betrayal or not, we'll never know, but you felt li- that it was. And to have the integrity to walk away from the bag of money when you felt that way, that's fucking-Epic.

   7. OAOliver Anthony42:28

      It was also, you gotta think, a couple of months before this. Like, of course, I had, you know, I had a wife and kids that I loved, and, like, I had a lot of really important things to live for, but I didn't have a whole lot to lose, like, like none of this was even really real. Like it w- I didn't care about th- like, I didn't care to lose this just as quick as I got it. Like, this didn't, this was, this didn't mean anything to me. It just meant something to me that, like, that I could do something for... Like, you know, you... (sighs) It's like, even if I'm not smart enough to figure out how to fix some of my own problems in my life, the fact that I felt like I could help fix somebody else's, like, that meant a hell of a lot more to me than any... That's what I didn't want to lose. I didn't want to lose those people's trust or, like, feel... You know what I mean? Like...

   8. LFLex Fridman43:10

      Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

   9. OAOliver Anthony43:12

      And so I've just tried to make every decision around, like, as best as I can, like, what I think the right thing is to do, and who knows what the hell (laughs) the right thing is to do? But I just try to follow... You know, we all have that little voice in us like that. We all have some... What... And, and I think sometimes we mask... You know, it's hard for us to listen to that little voice spe- whether it, whether it's like (laughs) , you know, whether it's our gluttony, or our lust, or our, or our... (sighs) You know, we s- we numb ourselves with medications or with alcohol or we s- we scroll on YouTube for four hours a, a night and, instead of... 'Cause we don't want to listen to our conscience, but there is this, like, very intelligent, discerning thing inside of us that's able to tell us what's right and wrong, and it's a s- it's a spiritual thing, I guess, and I just try to l- I just try to listen to that when I can. I don't know. I just still feel like I haven't done enough with it.

   10. LFLex Fridman44:04

       I think you, uh, I think you did a lot. I think you did a lot. I think you're an inspiration. You've helped a huge number of people, and you're also an inspiration to the other side of it, which is the artists, and just the humans to have integrity. I don't think people realize how much of a te- test of integrity fame, money, you know, power also is. You know, uh, Rogan and I talk about this quite a bit. We get to see, I mean, Joe especially, but I haven't- I've had a bit of the same, you get to s- see people become famous, and you get to see how they deal with that. And it's not easy. A lot of people will s- sell themselves a bit, sell the soul a bit, give away a bit of their integrity of the spirit that made them who they are. You get caught up in the wave of it, you know? And so to, to keep on- holding onto that, that's a powerful thing. That's a really, really powerful thing.

   11. OAOliver Anthony45:06

       (Laughs) Yeah, that's all I got though, you know?

   12. LFLex Fridman45:09

       Yeah.

   13. OAOliver Anthony45:09

       When you lose that, what the hell are you? Like... And you see it.

   14. LFLex Fridman45:12

       Yeah.

   15. OAOliver Anthony45:12

       Like, you see these celebrity people that just, like, fall off the (laughs) , they fall off the s- you know, they go off the deep end. It's like, it's... You gotta have, you have to have something in your life to, and to keep you centered and to keep you, um... You know, your whole perception of reality and, like, your just existence in reality is all contingent upon this sort of, like, this center that you exist in, and you have to... If you don't have that, then you're just flying through spa- through sp- I mean, we're all just riding on this rock that's going who knows how fast.

   16. LFLex Fridman45:41

       Mm-hmm. You said something, uh, I think to Jocko, that I really liked. "Everything that has purpose behind it comes with risk." So there in that moment, I mean, you're taking a hell of a risk.

   17. OAOliver Anthony45:56

       I was terrified to... I talked about this a little bit with him too, but I was terrified to even put the song out. Like, I knew I was gonna be the subject of scrutiny and judgment, and I knew people were gonna, like... You know, I kind of knew all that was gonna happen.

   18. LFLex Fridman46:08

       Mm-hmm.

   19. OAOliver Anthony46:08

       I was like... Going back to that cr- talking about crowds, like, to stand in front of thousands of people and everybody be in some sense of unity, like... A lot of times when I end the shows, I'll always, I'll always end with this statement that just says, you know, no matter what, like, no matter how you feel when you go online, you know, everyone feels so small and insignificant and, and powerless, but I just say, "No matter how they make you feel online, or when you turn on the TV, or when you look at polling numbers or whatever, like when you just look at all this trash that we digest every day, like, you're... There's always m- there are, will always be more of us than them." And w- and all that, and, but, like, to see the, like, just to see the light in people's eyes when you say that, but the truth is, like, and it's like, "Who is us and who is them?" And it's like, us just represents humanity and, like, and, and all the things we talked about so far are, like, just, you know, the fire and the chaos and, but also the, like, the love and just, just life. Life is just such a crazy, complicated, beautiful, disastrous thing. And then them is like, it is, it's the power structure, it's the, it's that same terrible side of us that created things like the Soviet Union and, and, and it's ultimately what's created this mons- this, like, monster that we all live under today, which now is not just, doesn't just exist within the confines of the Soviet Union, but seems to almost be a global epidemic.

   20. LFLex Fridman47:40

       And then that song became the rebel call against that, against the power structures that creates that.

   21. OAOliver Anthony47:48

       Yeah, it's like, how much fire am I willing to play with? 'Cause I know at some point I am gonna get burned from it. I just pray a lot that God... I don't have a lot of self-worth in myself anyway, so I don't really care what they say or do to me, or I don't care, like, I don't even care if I die, whatever. Just don't let... Just, just protect the people I love is all. That's all I ask of God. I have this dream of just creating this parallel system that sits beside all of these stupid systems that we live under, that are all sort of engulfed in this, this thing that we talked about at the beginning, this, this type of structure, you know? Where none of us, where we're all just robots, and it's like if we hate...You know, if- if we hate the way music is and all these artists are complaining about the way the venues are monopolized and the ticket sales are monopolized, then let's just go find other places to play music because there's so many people hungry for music in places they don't ever get it, and... If you look at it, there's so many passionate people that are fighting all these different causes like- like just in food. It's the word they use for ba- for more or less starvation. It's a more polite. It's called food insecurity. But if you look up just in Virginia, just where I live in Virginia in the rural areas, how much food insecurity there is and how many empty vacant farms there are. It's like o- this is an obvious problem that we should be on Twitter talking about non-stop. Like this is like everyone has to eat, you know? It don't matter what you vote for or what, like, what you look like or any of that crap. You can, you know, like... So, like let's just... Like why- why are we living in a country where we ha- why are we living in a country where half of us are obese and eating shit food and don't know any better, and then the other half of us don't ha- like how does f- it's just... It's lack of leadership that's caused dysfunction, and so if we're tired of that then- then let's just fix it. Like, we don't need anybody's permission. Like that's the whole beauty, like that's the whole beauty of what America is, is like we don't- we don't need some greasy haired corporate schmuck to give us permission to go fix all these things that are wrong. Let's just go do it, and if they don't like it, fuck 'em, you know?

   22. LFLex Fridman49:50

       In all domains of life from- from food to the music industry, honestly to education, also to government itself, all of it. And that, you know, your music is also just the soundtrack to that spirit that makes America great of just constantly trying to revitalize itself. When the bullshit piles up a little too high, there's that revolutionary spirit that says like, "We need to fix this shit."

   23. OAOliver Anthony50:24

       And- and that inspiration that created this country was from years of people living under tyranny. Like, we forget the story of the people who really created this country. Like it's funny I... One of the statements I made at the very beginning that got taken way out of context, but I wasn't in a position to like even begin to have a conversation about is I made this comment early on in one of the shows about- about how s- about how our diversity is a strength. But that term has been hijacked now to mean something a lot different than what it really means.

   24. LFLex Fridman50:52

       Mm-hmm.

   25. OAOliver Anthony50:52

       But it's like think about how many different people came together just at the founding of this country, like people who spoke different languages, different cultures, religions, ways of thinking. So many different people came together to even create this place now and like we've just forgotten about all that. They didn't all come here because they wanted to ride on some miserable boat ride and risk their whole lives to go to live in some crazy jungle essentially that had no structure, like no infrastructure, no medicine, no... Like they didn't come here for like some glorified camping trip. It's because they were tired of like m- generations of being persecuted and living under tyranny and not being allowed to practice their... You know, it's not like they wanted freedom of religion and they didn't want separation of church and state because they were a bunch of goody two-shoes and they love going to church every Sunday. It's because they weren't allowed to believe in what they believed in because some asshole king or some hierarchy told them they couldn't and they were just tired of it. That's what we're losing now is like we've forgotten that we're those people. Like the same structures that have plagued this country are... They're multinational corporations and they're... And it's just the ideology behind them and their str- and their structure is what the problem is.

   26. LFLex Fridman51:56

       Yeah, I mean it's, uh, multinational corporations. It's nation states that, uh, are deeply corrupt and are authoritarian and ultimately abuse power and yes create, uh, elements of tyranny and from that, the- the human spirit rises. Uh, like I said with- with- with- with songs like the ones you write or at the founding of this country, you know, that's why all these diverse outcasts come together and write something as crazy as all men are created equal.

   27. OAOliver Anthony52:33

       Yeah.

   28. LFLex Fridman52:33

       What a gangster line. (laughs) like that's not an easy thing to take a lot of that stuff for granted now. That's not an easy thing to come up with. That's a really gutsy thing to- to see- to see the value in all people equally. And of course they also were, uh, suffering from delusion you know. They didn't see Black people as equal. They didn't see women as equal. But even that first leap of like all men are created equal, that's like a gigantic fuck you to the past.

   29. OAOliver Anthony53:08

       Taking that leap forward really took a lot in a age and a time when- when it probably sounded cr- And it's not like they just made a statement and put it on Twitter. Like they- they like think about how much... Just think about the insanity. Like I can't even conceptualize the insanity of what took place from the time that... Like even from the Revolutionary War until now to try to preserve that idea. You know so, like, so much has happened and so much sacrifice has been made and just so many hours of labor and thought and intensity.

   30. LFLex Fridman53:38

       Even the 20th century's got two world wars and, uh, you know especially in the Second World War the United States played a very crucial role. And there was a lot of ideological like battle of ideas going on at that time-
8. 54:08 – 1:06:11

   Blue-collar people

   1. LFLex Fridman54:08

      I'd love to get back to talking to blue collar people you mentioned. Um, those are some of my favorite people so it was actually really cool to find out that for many years of your life basically the way you made a living is talking to blue collar people and getting their story. So I'm traveling across the world for a bit but of course the world that-... I love the most and I'm most curious about is the different subcultures and towns of the United States. So, I, I, I took a road trip across the US in my early 20s for, for several months, and that was, like, a transformative experience for me. And, and that's something, um... One of the luxuries I have is the, to have the freedom to do whatever the hell I want now. And-

   2. OAOliver Anthony54:56

      Mm-hmm.

   3. LFLex Fridman54:57

      ... so, uh, I wanted to take a road trip across the United States for several months, and one of the things I wanted to do is to just, to, to talk to, to people in, in small towns in Middle America. I don't know what words to put on it, but to talk to the very people that you talked about, that, that, uh, you know, construction workers, plumbers, waitresses, oil rig workers. Just people that do something real, people that are real, that don't make much money, that struggle, but have a, as you talked about, have like a richness to them-

   4. OAOliver Anthony55:41

      Mm-hmm.

   5. LFLex Fridman55:41

      ... that's not often revealed, that's not often talked about. So maybe can you speak to that? To your, to your time with blue-collar folk?

   6. OAOliver Anthony55:49

      When I got all those messages at the... We were talking about early on, earlier in this. Like, so many of 'em, and even now, it's... Even since I... Even, like, in the last couple of days, I've gotten some where they start with, "Hey, I'm a nobody, but..." Like, that's how a lot of those start, you know? Like, the nobodies of the world, if you wanna call 'em. Like, that's... It's, it's frustrating that the, the people who literally have, have, have built and preserve and maintain the structure of society that we all comfortably live in, those people have the least amount of representation. They're ignored just because of the way the social hierarchy exists, but the... Some of the most dim-witted, irrelevant, terrible people are put here and are idolized and spotlighted and they're all over television and they're all over the internet, and we act like they're, like they're kings and queens and like that they're royalty. And then all these people who do jobs that most of us would be too terrif- Either, either wouldn't have the ab- even the ability to do. We'd be ter- Like, like how many people are gonna go underwater and weld? But if we didn't have underwater welders, like... One of my best friends, whose name is also Jocko, funny enough, the dude works 70, 80 hours every week. He's on the Chesapeake Bay, uh, tunnel job now. But the dude's gotten up on, gotten on heights that I couldn't get on. He's went, he's went underground places I wouldn't go, and nobody will ever kno- Like, nobody even knows those people's stories or what they went through or, like, the kind of lives they lived and, and they're the f- They're like the f- the people who create the fabric of society, and even the waitresses and the waiters and, like, all these factory jobs that I worked in. All those peop- Like, the cr- You... Talk about the craziest place I ever worked and the craziest people I ever met was this little place called Perfect Air in Marion, North Carolina.

   7. LFLex Fridman57:44

      Mm-hmm.

   8. OAOliver Anthony57:44

      And it was this commercial air conditioner factory, which is, I think, closed now, but they didn't pay very well. And so everyone they hired was either people that had criminal backgrounds who couldn't get jobs elsewhere or idiots who dropped out of high school and couldn't work elsewhere, like me. And so I was 18 years old working in this place with people who were mostly in their 50s and 60s. But you wanna talk about being exposed to just a whole nother world of peop- Like, and just the stories and the just... Those people are far more interesting than th- than many of the people that we consider to be celebrities. Like, most people who are celebrities are just pretty boring and air-headed and don't really even know what real life is about. They're v- pretty unrelatable to the rest of the world, and so it would be really cool. I mean, that's the whole reason that I wanna go out and do these shows in places that haven't had music in them in 10 years, because those peop- Like, that is America to me, you know? How many people in Pittsburgh have been an hour outside of Pittsburgh? And even in Virginia, if you lived in northern Virginia and you drive two and a half hours southwest, you're in a whole nother planet.

   9. LFLex Fridman58:40

      Mm-hmm.

   10. OAOliver Anthony58:41

       Like, the people, the accents, the culture. And so I feel driven in the same way. Like, I would love to f- I would love to find a way to, to try to bridge that cultural gap-

   11. LFLex Fridman58:52

       Mm-hmm.

   12. OAOliver Anthony58:52

       ... to make those people relevant and to make... Because they are, like, some of the most h- And, like, and it's funny because we emulate a lot of those pe- Like, you know, modern country music is a bunch of people emulating those people.

   13. LFLex Fridman59:05

       Right.

   14. OAOliver Anthony59:05

       You know?

   15. LFLex Fridman59:05

       And there's also the, like, uh... I love people that have a skill and become masters of that skill also. So that element is also there. Even if it's, like, insanely difficult work, like being a miner. Like, there's skill to that. There's stories there.

   16. OAOliver Anthony59:21

       Oh, yeah.

   17. LFLex Fridman59:21

       There's, like, what it takes to do that. So, I, I mean, some of my favorite humans are engineers, and all they do is solve really hard problems, and they develop... I mean, it's a pain-in-the-ass job.

   18. OAOliver Anthony59:33

       Yeah.

   19. LFLex Fridman59:33

       Anything in the factories, p- is extremely difficult, but, uh, you learn so much about what it takes to solve intricate, like, nuanced problems in the physical world. So, coal mining, oil rigs, like you mentioned, welding. That's a fascinating line of work.

   20. OAOliver Anthony59:51

       And, and those are trades that are, in many cases, dying because w- we don't... Because they aren't popular in culture anymore. For everything from a agricultural to plumbing and electrical, it's like, those are all areas that I think if you were to go out and talk to some of those people and shed light on it, it would... Y- Like, (laughs) you could change the, you could change the entire landscape in America of how, of how it's perceived and, like, and make it cool, you know?

   21. LFLex Fridman1:00:16

       Yeah. So thank you, what you're doing on that front. I, I wanna say, I wrote it down. Please, if you know people that would be willing to talk, reach out to me. A good way to do that is lex friedman.com/contact.

   22. OAOliver Anthony1:00:29

       This was another one of the things early on that I had an idea about, and I thought was getting done and it wasn't, that I, I've got to go back and try to figure out, is doing...... prison shows and, uh, doing rehab shows and all that. But I am really intrigued with, like, going into those places and trying to immerse myself and just the, the mental state that those people are in. And, like, it's not talked about a whole lot, but-

   23. LFLex Fridman1:00:56

       Also people who get out, ex-convicts, I mean, that, that's a hard life. That's just a hard life to try to reintegrate back into society.

   24. OAOliver Anthony1:01:06

       Yeah. And a lot of those people at Perfect Hair that I worked with, they almost all were in some form of legal trouble. Like, there was a lady that worked on the assembly line beside me named Denise. And, uh, her and her husband had been manufacturing methamphetamine. And he took the fall for most of it. Sh- she only had to go on probation. He was still in prison. But man, like, S- Denise was a s- very sweet lady. And like aside from the meth manufacturing-

   25. LFLex Fridman1:01:30

       (laughs)

   26. OAOliver Anthony1:01:30

       ... like, she was, like, great, you know.

   27. LFLex Fridman1:01:32

       Yeah. Yeah.

   28. OAOliver Anthony1:01:32

       Like, and just such a character, like, in such a good way. And so it's like, yeah, just-

   29. LFLex Fridman1:01:36

       Denise, lex fremon.com/contact. (laughs)

   30. OAOliver Anthony1:01:40

       (laughs)
9. 1:06:11 – 1:31:04

   Depression

   1. OAOliver Anthony1:06:49

      Sometimes it's not even... You know, it, it's funny, but it's almost not even where you're at in life, it's where you perceive yourself at in life and what you're, what your goals are moving forward. And I think, like, you know, I was... I dropped out of high school at 17, basically ran away from home. I just c- I couldn't... I have always had this authority problem and so I just didn't want to listen to my parents. I didn't want to go to college. I just wanted to go move into the mountains. I was running away from responsibility, I guess, is what I was doing, you know? And so, got this girl pregnant, had my first kid when I was 18 or just about to turn 19, and like I said, I'm working in a air conditioning factory with a bunch of convicted felons (laughs) . And so from there everything was just reactionary. I never really had a plan. I would jump from job to job, just like most everybody else. I don't know, I just, I just got to a point where I guess I just quit believing in myself, and I knew that I wasn't doing... I just knew I wasn't doing... I wasn't filling my purpose and I wasn't being the best version of myself I could be, and so the, the alternative to, like, facing yourself in the mirror and accepting that, that I'm not a shitty person, I've just let myself fall, you know? It's like it's so hard to accept when you've had that fall that it's just easier to just, just to get drunk and, you know, just do the bare minimum you can to keep everything sort of kinda moving along. But you don't really care if you live or die, you don't, you don't really care about much anything. Like, your whole... You know, I don't know, life is just so beautiful when you're a child. You're so imaginative and exploratory and you're learning all these things, and you just, you just can't wait to be an adult because you're just gonna go out and do all these incredible... You know? And then-

   2. LFLex Fridman1:08:28

      You face the reality of it.

   3. OAOliver Anthony1:08:30

      Yeah, and the pressure and the fear of failure, like, I think maybe even my own fear of failure is what dro- is what drove me into... But yeah, you just... And you th- you think negatively about yourself for so many days and weeks and months and you, like, you don't even have a real self-awareness of like what you're doing or how destructive you've become, but you always have that, that discernment in you that, like, that conscious, you know? That little voice in your, in your spirit that is letting you know you're messing up, you know?

   4. LFLex Fridman1:09:00

      Mm-hmm.

   5. OAOliver Anthony1:09:01

      I was almost, like, in a... I was wrestling with myself, you know? And so, I don't know, I just got to a point where it's just like... I... Yeah, just a n- just a very, just a very overwhelming sense of numbness. Like, like it don't, like nothing really, nothing that mattered before really matters anymore. Like, I guess that's, that's probably to me the definition of depression, is when all the things you love and care about are just meaningless, and you can't find, you really can't find meaning or purpose or excitement in anything, you know? Like, like I think especially with men that commit suicide, it's a, it's a prolonged period of that. It's not like they just wake up one day and they have a bad day and they kill themselves. It's like, you self-reflect negatively about yourself and your life and you don't do the things that you're supposed to do every day for a long enough period of time, and it's like pretty soon you've built this whole mountain of, of, of, of mismanaged, neglected stuff, for lack of a better word. Like this mountain that you have to climb back up in order to fix all these things that you should've been doing all along. And then the- and then on the other side of it, it's like, "Well, I could just die." Like, that seems a lot s- Like, it's almost like, for a, I think from a man's perspective maybe, the friends that I've had that I've lost, it seems like a lot of times you th-think, you kn- you'd never see it coming, you know? Like, I don't know, maybe that's a general thing with... It seems like a lot of times men mask that better and you don't pick up on it as much, but, um, I think it's like you just dig yourself into a point to where it's like you have a mountain of responsibility in front of you that you haven't faced, that you don't know how to face, and you ha- you haven't been able to do so for a long time, but there's this really easy detour and it's just, you know, putting your big toe on the trigger. And it's like which one of those are... I don't know. Like, they both seem... Eh, but at that point your, your perception of reality is so distorted that like y- you don't... All the things that can, that would normally compel you to, to move along, like your, like love and joy and like your, your dr- you know, your drive to, to be that... None of that really... It's not there for you to even contemplate, if that makes sense. It's g- it's like that part is a- is, is almost like, at least for a little while, invisible, and all you see is fear and responsibility and just this, like I said, I just vis- I just envision it like a mountain that you don't, you don't really know if you're even able to climb. And then the other option is just... So I-

   6. LFLex Fridman1:11:45

      Yeah.

   7. OAOliver Anthony1:11:45

      I think that's probably where, that's probably where a lot of people go, and that's probably where I was, w- was just, like, you know?

   8. LFLex Fridman1:11:54

      Yeah, I mean, there is the, it's not just responsibility, it's the immensity of it, the mountain. And I think you're accurately describing how it happens, which is gradually.

   9. OAOliver Anthony1:12:06

      Yeah.

   10. LFLex Fridman1:12:06

       Seeing yourself in a negative light over time slowly suffocates you. And then the burden of the responsibility, that piles up. And unfortunately, uh, of course one of the ways out is to pull the trigger, and the other way out is the Jordan Peterson, back to Jordan sort of one gradual step at a time, like make your bed.

   11. OAOliver Anthony1:12:33

       Mm-hmm.

   12. LFLex Fridman1:12:34

       It's like start climbing out, like, eh, the responsibilities before you one at a time every single day, just climbing out, and have faith that it will work out.

   13. OAOliver Anthony1:12:46

       That was what was so powerful f- for me about just beginning to open my mind back up to reading, just a little bit of stuff, like, a little bit of stuff from the New Testament that Jesus said and some different perspectives and teachings. But like, you know, an apostle would be in prison, like, basically being tortured and facing death, but like-... just overjoyed in writing about talking about- it's all about your perspective of things, like. I said, like, that's why I never could understand why, you know, like celebrities or professional... I mean, giving one example of many, like a Kurt Cobain-type scenario, where you have a guy that's just immensely talented, just will always be loved by plenty of people. Like, I never could understand why that guy-

   14. LFLex Fridman1:13:28

       There's a ocean of quiet suffering in a, in a lot of... And I think it is disproportionately in men, in a lot of men, and they hide it well.

   15. OAOliver Anthony1:13:39

       That's why blue-collar workers have such a high suicide rate and all too, and why it is so important to talk to those people and...

   16. LFLex Fridman1:13:46

       Yeah, it's in the... You can see it in their eyes. And there, there, there is, (laughs) there is a lot of pain there.

   17. OAOliver Anthony1:13:53

       Without, like, trying to get, without, like, trying to open up too many doors, I think that's probably the best way I would describe it, is just a series of really, just a series of negligent decisions and also just misperceptions, you know. Like, I think this was an Andrew Huberman thing, where he talks about medications and how it's a lot more likely for somebody to keep their dog on their medication schedule but not themselves. You know, you love your dog and your dog, like, is just this great little thing, and you just, you don't see the flaws and the faults and the sin and the disgust in your dog that you do yourself. So, it's much more likely for people to make sure their dog has their medication every day. But, like, there's this alarming statistic with just the amount of people that don't even fill their prescriptions they need filled or take care of themselves the way they do. And, and then that also, like, over time, you know, like, if you quit taking care of yourself and you're not in good health and you're, and you're, you're not in a good routine, you're not doing... You're not, like, a ser- a, a long series of doing enough of those things, like you do... It's easy for you to just think that your self-worth is zero. 'Cause if you're not even willing to, like, if you're not even willing to, like, have basic hygiene and, and eat decent food and try to take care of yourself, it's like, why, how... Like, how on earth are you going to go face all these things that you need to face to get your life better if you can't e- you don't even care enough to do that? It's just like, but it is, it's a lo- it's a, it's a, it's a long, tragic road to get to that point, I think. At least in my case, the idea that there was something bigger than me that loved me, even despite I had all these flaws and problems and just, that I was just such a wretched person. That's what, at least in my situation, that's what I think helped put, you know... More than anything. Like I said, that's certainly where the motivation to quit the... Once I quit the drinking, it helped a lot 'cause I was able to s- even though it was a pain, it was difficult, I was able to actually, be able to be honest with myself and reflect on a lot of things that were... And, you know, you got to think, like I said, I, we watched the... I mean it was like with... Of course, in my case, it was a little unfair of an example because within a month all this stuff had happened, like, after I quit. But, you know, um, I see it in my friends that have quit and have tried to turn things around, and it, you know. It's like, it's, it's, it is the most beautiful thing in the world to see somebody, like, come to life again after being in one of those... You're able to, like, sort of, like, escape this shell of, of all those terrible things. And even if you are still in a bad position and you're still... You got 30 grand worth of credit card debt and you work in some shit job and your car doesn't start (laughs) half the time and, like, you know, your girlfriend left you for some other dude, and, like, don't matter what it is. Like if, if at least that little glimmer of hope that, like, that faith that there is a chance at something greater, like, that can, That'll push people. You can put, you can push, you can push a mountain aside with that, you know. Like, you can do anything with that. And I think it's also good, I think it is important to have a s- a good su- support structure, like when you get to that point. I don't think you should, I don't think anybody should have to face that stuff by themselves. And there's plenty of other people o- out there that are in the same position, and, uh, I think that's, again, I think that's why it's so important for us to try to get reconnected on a personal level and not just through digital communication, because, like, we don't real- we don't... All we see of each other online is the good stuff.

Episode duration: 2:19:08