Oliver Anthony: Country Music, Blue-Collar America, Fame, Money, and Pain | Lex Fridman Podcast #469

Lex Fridman 0:00 The following is a conversation with Oliver Anthony, singer/songwriter from Virginia, who first gained worldwide fame with his viral hit, Rich Men North of Richmond. He became a voice for many who are voiceless, with his songs speaking to the struggle of the working class in modern American life. His legal name is Christopher Anthony Lunsford. Oliver Anthony was his grandfather's name, and so Chris used this name as a dedication to his grandfather, and to 1930s Appalachia, where his grandfather was born and raised. "Dirt floors, seven kids, hard times," as Chris says. He's happy to be called either one, by the way. I've gotten to know Chris more since the recording of this conversation. He truly is as he appears online and in his songs: down to earth, humble, and a good man who deeply feels the pain of the downtrodden. This is the Lex Fridman Podcast. To support it, please check out our sponsors in the description. And now, dear friends, here's Christopher Lunsford, or as many of you know him as, Oliver Anthony.

Lex Fridman 1:14 So, I was texting you, uh, last night, uh, sitting at- at an open mic listening to a guy perform Great Balls of Fire. Uh, like I told you, he was giving everything he got for, like, five people in the audience plus me.

Oliver Anthony 1:26 Well, you were there. I didn't- I'd have been doing it too if you were out there. Be like, "Oh, that's Lex Fridman."

Lex Fridman 1:30 No, man. He was, uh, this big dude on the keyboard just everything. Sweaty, long hair. You could tell, like, he was there in his own little world. I love the courage of that, of just giving it everything. I don't think he wants to be famous. I don't think he wants anything in life except to be there and to play, like, his heart out.

Oliver Anthony 1:49 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 1:49 That's why I love open mics. Like, some people still aspire to be famous when they play open mics, but some people, maybe they've given up or maybe they never wanted to be famous. They're just there for the pure artistry of it, so.

Oliver Anthony 2:02 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 2:03 And you said you started out playing open mics. What? At shitty bars. What was that like?

Oliver Anthony 2:07 Well, yeah. Real quick before I forget too. A great example of a- of a guy who had that same mindset and was able to maintain it really well is this mandolin player named Johnny Stats in West Virginia. To me, he's one of the best and he's wo- won all these awards and stuff, and he still works for UPS full-time. And, like, he could go out and tour with... Play mandolin for anybody he wanted to, but he... But man, when you meet Johnny, like, you can tell he's just got this, um, this joy in him that I don't think he would have if he... But as far as me with the open mics, um, yeah. It was just, (laughs) it was, a lot of them were really em- a lot of them were embarrassing. There was a couple, I remember there was times where I'd go up and try to do... I'd do, like, one song. I'd get, like, halfway through the next song, and I'd be so nervous by that point I didn't, I couldn't remember any of the words. (laughs) And there's a couple times I... I remember there was one time (laughs) in particular that I just w- I just walked off halfway through the song, put my guitar in the case, and just w- I just left. I didn't even, like, couldn't even stay in there. Just total, you know, just total freakout, but...

Lex Fridman 3:10 Just embarrassment?

Oliver Anthony 3:11 And I never drank in bars either. Like, I'm not a f- I wasn't really a social drinker, so I was just there to try to do the mi- So it was k- it was kinda... I was a little out of place anyway. I feel kinda out of place in a bar to start with, so.

Lex Fridman 3:22 Yeah. This is back when you could smoke in bars. There's a whole vibe to it.

Oliver Anthony 3:25 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 3:25 People smoking, drinking. And, yeah, definitely, you know, bombing in a place like that when the audience is...

Oliver Anthony 3:33 (laughs)

Lex Fridman 3:33 Is, is there's, like, five people and they're bored.

Oliver Anthony 3:36 Yeah, there was one like that. It was in Matoca. It wasn't that far from where I lived. The place is gone now, but, uh, it was about as big as the room we're in here, if that, you know. Like, the- the ceiling tiles were yellow from where everybody had smoked in it since the beginning of time.

Lex Fridman 3:50 Yeah.

Oliver Anthony 3:50 But, like, yeah, that was my little spot, those little ku- type of spots.

Lex Fridman 3:53 You did covers? What'd you play? What was your go-to?

Oliver Anthony 3:56 Back then it was, like, uh, I don't know, Fishing in the Dark, Nitty Gritty Band, or like, um... Any of those old Hank, like Hank Jr songs, like any of those bar type of... Um, David Allen Coe, like You Never Call Me By My Name. Any of that kind of stuff. And I haven't even played any of those in forever now, but that was... Any of those ones where you get people singing along and stuff, that's what I'd always try to do, you know?

Lex Fridman 4:18 Yeah. That song you performed, Take Me Home, uh, Country Road, how's that go? West Virginia?

Oliver Anthony 4:23 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 4:24 That's a good song.

Oliver Anthony 4:24 John Denver was just, uh, one of those guys that it's, who knows where he woulda went long term if he wouldn't have passed, but...

Lex Fridman 4:32 You know what's a fun song that I- I love, I shouldn't, but I love, is, uh, what is it? Uh, like, Thank God I'm a Country Boy (laughs) .

Oliver Anthony 4:41 I think that's what I liked about John Denver, was he was a little bit, like, he let himself be a little bit corny in the spirit of, like, having fun with it. Like, um, great example, there's this old- older guy that not a lot of people have heard of named Roy Clark, but, um, my farm's, like, a mile down the road from Roy Clark's old farm. But he, he used to be on Hee Haw. Do you- I don't know if you've ever heard of that old show from, like, the '60s or whatever, but crazy dude. He could pick any instrument up. Like, there's videos on YouTube of him, but he would just sit there and just pick anything up and just rip it to death. But he would always just be real silly about it. He never had, like, he never took it too, never took himself too seriously, you

Oliver Anthony 5:17 know?

Lex Fridman 5:17 Some people go to the fun place, some people go to the dark place.

Oliver Anthony 5:20 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 5:20 And so, you know, country can do both. You- you- you more often go to the dark place.

Oliver Anthony 5:26 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 5:26 To- to the- to the pain.

Oliver Anthony 5:28 Yeah. Well, especially some of the new songs that are coming out. The- they'll be probably not coun- I mean, I don't know what they'll be. I don't know. What is country anymore anyway? I don't know that many people who listen to the type of music that I grew up listening to probably listen to country radio anymore anyway. Like, I think there's- there's quite a lot of people who don't- who have sort of disowned that space, you know? In commercialized country, you only really get what sells, which un- and a lot of what sells isn't necessarily what matters.

Lex Fridman 5:58 Well, you had that whole experience where they-... take what you recorded and polish it, quote unquote, try to make it perfect, and in so doing, destroy the soul of the thing. And so probably that happens with these big artists. They're so famous, it's like a machine, and so-

Oliver Anthony 6:13 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 6:14 ... what the machine does is it over-polishes things. And so the raw, like, power of the person, the uniqueness of the person, the soul of the person is gone if you do that.

Oliver Anthony 6:26 Yeah. Well perf- I think professionalism in gen- like, applying the tastic- the tactics of corporate America to anything that is-

Lex Fridman 6:34 Yeah.

Oliver Anthony 6:35 ... baseline artistic is not gonna end well.

Lex Fridman 6:37 They're all individually brilliant, but together this corporate speak comes out.

Oliver Anthony 6:42 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 6:43 Just the soul of the people dissipates. It like disappears. Why are you all pretending that, like, life is not terrible and beautiful and, like, you're both scared shitless and excited, and this guy's going through a divorce, this person just fell in love? Like you're-

Oliver Anthony 7:04 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 7:04 ... forgetting the intensity of life-

Oliver Anthony 7:07 Uh-huh.

Lex Fridman 7:08 ... with this corporate, like, nine to five, like, "Hi, John. It's great to see you today."

Oliver Anthony 7:14 (laughs)

Lex Fridman 7:15 "Oh, you too. You as well."

Oliver Anthony 7:18 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 7:18 "You as well." But when I look at it, I'm like, "Why am I whining?" I, I feel like a Bukowski type character. Because like, they're all really nice, they're all good people, but like something is gone when you have this corporate machine.

Oliver Anthony 7:31 Well, they're, they're there to fill a role contractually, and if they, I think if they bring too many of their human elements into that, then they jeopardize losing their sense of security. And it'll, it's all just out of fear, it's out of fear of losing your job. I mean, it's the reason why all the songs say Oliver Anthony and not Christopher Lunsford on 'em, you know? Like, it's fear of ... It's so difficult to, especially now it seems, and I mean, who knows? I didn't gr- I (laughs) was never around in the '40s or '50s and work a job, I'm sure they were probably pretty miserable back then. But, you know, they talk about now like how difficult it is, like, the, the impossibility of having a single family household or anything else. But, like, when you find a decent paying job that you can do without it just torturing you every day, that's a, that's a pretty important thing now, you know? Like, and so it, it, it's pretty easy to just, it's pretty easy to kinda turn yourself into a robot for eight or ten hours a day out of fear of ... It's like, you don't want to be yourself too much, because maybe part of yourself isn't something that's accepted in this like dystopian nightmare that you go to work at every day, and so you just gotta do your best to just not step on any toes or do anything that, that makes you stand out too much, you know? And now it's like, now, like, when you scroll through some of these videos of people like, (sighs) the big th- even when I was still like, when I was still working my lame job, it was like there was this whole big thing of people talking about quiet quitting or something like that where they were just gonna go to work (laughs) but not really do anything, but ...

Lex Fridman 8:58 That hurts me so much. That hurts me when you just stop when you're there, but you're not really there. That makes me so sad.

Oliver Anthony 9:05 Yeah, so then they wonder, these companies just slowly kinda fall apart and disintegrate because they're so worried about structure, and, you know, like, I mean, God man, even in, even in America today, our culture has becom- because so many big corporations own and manage everything that we live under, like food, agriculture, healthcare, like, social media, it's all in corporate structures that it's almost like a lot of the problems we find ourselves in now as society I think are like, it's just because of, it's almost like H- corporate HR has been implemented into our whole thought process of everything, you know? It's like, um, I think that's kinda what you're touching on though, it's like, (sighs) it's, it's hard to be, it's hard to be a human and be a good little corporate employee at the same time. Um, and as our whole society moves more into like becoming a cor- like basically one big corporation, it's like you don't wanna piss the HR lady off, so it's a lot easier for me to just beep boop, we're all sorta just turning, we're all turning into robots, you know?

Lex Fridman 10:05 Oh, and that, and that's what the, uh, uh, I've talked to, to great engineers about this. Uh, Jim Keller's a legendary engineer. Elon, Elon Musk is another example. But you need that, I don't know what's a nice term for it, but you need the asshole, because y- you wanna get to the ground truth of things, to the first principle-

Oliver Anthony 10:23 Mm-hmm.

Lex Fridman 10:23 ... of things, like how do we simplify, how do we make it more efficient, how do we move faster, how do we get shit done? And that has no place for this kind o- polite speak. And then, you know, other great team members swoop in and like repair the damage that the tornado has done. (laughs)

Oliver Anthony 10:41 Do you think that's ... 'Cause I'm not, I'm not super well versed about all this, so I'm probably dumb to even mention it, but, um, this guy who's been helping me with doing a documentary, uh, he's been following me around since the very first show at th- August of '23. He, (clears throat) his background was doing, um, promotional videos for Boeing, like for on their new spacecraft to pitch it to whoever. And so he was, we touched uh, we touched base a little bit on Boeing, and of course they're having a lot of problems now it sounds like. And he was comparing that with SpaceX, or with, you know, like, eh, that, that I thi- I think it's that, exactly what we touched on with that thought process of that sorta dehumanization within companies. I think that's what ultimately causes maybe f- I don't know if there's a connection there or not, but it seems like Boeing is a very, would be more of that, they don't have that tornado, they're very like, H- Like he was telling me even just with his protocols and some of the people he worked with, like everything's just very, you know, lightly touch everything. No one, don't, don't touch anything too hard.

Lex Fridman 11:39 So it's not just HR, it's also, it's just this managerial class where it's like, Bob from this department has to schedule a meeting with John from this department, and Debbie, like they have to have a meeting two and a half weeks from now, and then there's paperwork, and that, that bureaucracy that's created in the managerial class just slows everything down. And one of the things that slowing everything down does-... is it really demotivates the people that are actually doing this shit. Like-

Oliver Anthony 12:11 Mm.

Lex Fridman 12:12 ... the people on the ground, the engineers that are building stuff, it's, again, soul-drenching to, like, be excited, show up, and now you hit this wall of paperwork. Like, you can't, you have to wait for John and Debbie, and I forgot the third guy's name-

Oliver Anthony 12:29 (laughs)

Lex Fridman 12:29 ... that I imagined in my head, uh, w- to have a meeting. It just... And then you kinda slow down, and you disappear in terms of that fire, that passion that's required-

Oliver Anthony 12:41 Mm.

Lex Fridman 12:41 ... to create big things, so.

Oliver Anthony 12:43 Yeah, 'cause they don't believe... T- there's a lack of leadership, and if they don't believe in, if they don't believe in that leadership, then why the hell would they be motivated? I mean, I remember, um, a while back watching, uh, Jocko Willink talk about a, um, talk about that when he was w- w- in leadership, when he was leading his guys. I think he mentions it in his book, is probably where I remember seeing it, um, one of his books. And he talks about, like, how important it was for the people under him in rank to believe in what he was, the actions he was giving 'em. Even if he necessarily didn't agree with them himself, it was like, there... It's really hard to take orders and go, and like to, to have human spirit, and, especially in something that's innovative and not... If you, if you're working for a company where you just think everybody's dumb. I mean, I can certainly relate with that. I mean, God, that's all... At, at my old job, that's all we did, was we spent half our day just talking about how, how dumb we thought everybody was that was above us. You know, it's like, it's easy to fall into that in the corporate world. And so yeah, the morale gets terrible, and, and, and everyone suffers as a result of it, you know. Like, the, the people at the top who are implementing all that dysfunction suffer and the people at the bottom. It's like it's not good for anybody. I had thought, now that I'm doing this, that I could escape away from that, but that exact same mentality and that dysfunction and that, um, that inefficiency, like, I still battle it every day.

Lex Fridman 14:07 That's why it takes, it takes unique characters to lead the way. Such unique characters are very much needed in the music industry to revolutionize everything, cut through the bureaucracy, the bullshit. It ultimately is, is just a machine that steals money and doesn't get any- anything done, really. Uh, we'll talk about

Lex Fridman 14:24 it. By the way, all the love in the world to Jocko. He's great. I've been going through, uh, lots of ups and downs in life, lots of low points for myself over the past, uh, shit, three years really, but, um, uh, recently especially. And he always texts (laughs) in his, in his (laughs) very high testosterone way of like, (laughs) of like, "You good, bro?" (laughs) Just checking in. I mean, he's a good man. He's a good man. He's, uh, obviously an inspiration to millions of people, but also just, um, is a good human being himself, so.

Oliver Anthony 14:59 Maybe one sim- one thing that we felt similarly, I'm just... I, I would imagine you way more than me, is just feeling like, like, wow, I have the ability to influence or the ability to, to be- to- to either bring truth or to improve people's lives, or, or, you know, every word that you say sometimes matters so much. And you're just like, "Man, I'm an idiot." Like, "I don't..."

Lex Fridman 15:22 Yeah.

Oliver Anthony 15:23 Like, "I don't," (laughs) you know? Like, "I woulda never guessed." I mean, I, we were kind of talking about that b- before about like it wou- woulda never guessed that it woulda turn- that this would have turned into all this. But it's, it is a, it is a, it is a weight that you bear whether you really even acknowledge it or not, you know, like, um...

Lex Fridman 15:38 Yeah, and I think it's like, you know, the s- the songs you've created, they, uh, speak to the human condition, to the struggle of, uh, everyday working people in a society that has the elites that try to take advantage of those working people. And you're just speaking, through your music, those truths of how life is. And then that has a huge impact on a lot of people that's really positive, but then you also get attacked and misrepresented and lied about from different angles. And just the turmoil, the intense chaos of that, y- it disorients, it, it disorients me. Like, to be attacked by very large number of people, to be lied about, to be... Just the, it- it- it... Because I love people and just have, I have a general optimism about humanity, it just disorients me. Like, um, it gives me this feeling like... I generally, just like you said, think of myself as kind of an idiot, not really knowing what I'm doing. And when a lot of people tell you that you're correct, you don't know what you're doing, you start to, like, wanna hide. You wanna hide from the world, hide from yourself. And then there's also just the, the chemistry of the brain. It's like-

Oliver Anthony 17:03 Mm-hmm.

Lex Fridman 17:03 ... y- you shake up the brain a little bit, it starts getting, it starts getting weird. And it... So, it can get... On many, uh, fronts, it can get real lonely. When you're getting attacked, when you're kind of fucking things up, in many ways, it can get lonely.

Oliver Anthony 17:20 Mm.

Lex Fridman 17:21 Yeah, so it's been... And so you get a text from Jocko like, "You good?" Yeah. Yeah. And then I, I mean, I have good friends. Andrew Huberman's been great. Rogan's been great.

Oliver Anthony 17:31 Well, you know, you... Lex, however many years ago, was in a different place in society than Lex is now. And so it's like every conversation you have or every relationship you have is inherently different, even if you aren't any different. Friends that you had from before maybe or even just new people you meet, your interactions with them are gonna be a lot different than if this wasn't a thing. And so s-

Lex Fridman 17:52 Yeah.

Oliver Anthony 17:53 It's like that, that can be tricky too. A- when you've spent your whole life, you know, from the time you're three years old and you're starting to play with other kids and, like, developmentally learning, like, how to share and how to interact, and you're on the, you're playing o- y- you know-... you're playing in the playground with kids and learning how to, like, set rules and boundaries and how to, like, basically fit in a society and, like ... So you have this whole learning pattern up until whatever point in time when, when success happens, and then it's like all that shifts pretty dramatically all ... you know, in a relatively short period of time. And there ... So, like, how d- do you, how do you think, like, managing your previous, like, previous friendships or your li- ... like, you know, how ... has that been tricky for you? Or, like, how does that-

Lex Fridman 18:34 Yeah, it's been, it's been tough. Uh, you know, I value deep, close, long-term friendships. And, yeah, but, I mean, I have amazing friends, but they certainly do treat me a little different. They, they bust my balls s- noticeably less.

Oliver Anthony 18:50 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 18:50 Right?

Oliver Anthony 18:50 And you need, you need that sometimes.

Lex Fridman 18:52 I need... I... J- not sometimes.

Oliver Anthony 18:54 (laughs)

Lex Fridman 18:54 All the time. First of all, it's how dudes show love, is making fun of each other, at least my friends.

Oliver Anthony 19:02 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 19:02 Like (laughs) th-

Oliver Anthony 19:03 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 19:03 You know, when you s- when you watch ... man, I'm gonna get in trouble, but when you w- watch like-

Oliver Anthony 19:08 (laughs)

Lex Fridman 19:08 ... women interact, they're often, like, really positive towards each other. Like, "Oh, you look great." This, da-da-da. They're like, da-da-da. Yeah.

Oliver Anthony 19:15 Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

Lex Fridman 19:15 (laughs) When you watch dudes interact-

Oliver Anthony 19:17 (laughs)

Lex Fridman 19:17 ... like close friends, they're just like, I mean, busting each other's balls nonstop, making fun of each other. Uh-

Oliver Anthony 19:23 (laughs)

Lex Fridman 19:23 It's just ... Uh, and so, yes, that has been a little bit harder. I, I try, I try to break those walls, like, but that's why with the famous friends it's a little bit easier, 'cause they can still ... like, Rogan roasts me nonstop.

Oliver Anthony 19:38 (laughs)

Lex Fridman 19:38 So, (laughs) so it's just, it's, uh ... and it just feels good. I just sit there and get made fun of and it's great.

Oliver Anthony 19:44 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 19:44 It's great.

Oliver Anthony 19:44 And I still do it all the time, I just ... it's just a different experience now, but I, I'm like a Goodwill junkie. Like, um, most of ... like, most of even my clothes were from Goodwill, but, like, I have this, I have this, like, addiction with buying paintings from Goodwill.

Lex Fridman 19:59 Nice.

Oliver Anthony 20:00 Like the $8 paintings where it looks like somebody was following along with, like, a Bob Ross-

Lex Fridman 20:04 Yeah, yeah.

Oliver Anthony 20:04 ... video and it didn't work out quite right.

Lex Fridman 20:06 (laughs)

Oliver Anthony 20:06 Like, I lo- ... like, I buy every one of those.

Lex Fridman 20:08 Yeah.

Oliver Anthony 20:08 I'll go in there and buy, like, 10 of ... and so just even ... you know, anytime you go out into public now, it's just like, you know it's gonna be a little different than it was. You know, I don't know if that makes or not, but ...

Lex Fridman 20:16 Yeah, yeah, for sure. I mean, I ... you know, I'm trying to deal with it. But all of it, when you talk to world leaders,

Lex Fridman 20:21 when you step into politics a little bit, and you apparently stepped into politics even though you never meant to, you're not a political person, that, that world is like, "What the fuck?" It's very intense, especially at an intense moment in history, in a, in an extremely divided country, so ...

Oliver Anthony 20:41 Yeah, like saying that I'm not in politics, people are like, "Well, of course you're in politics." And I don't know whether I am or not, but it just ... Um, I do think a lot of people in politics, like, as far as the people who sit on the internet all day and argue about stuff on X or on whatever, you know, Facebook and all, like, I do think their heart is in it for the right reasons. They observe that there's a lot of things wrong in the world that they'd like to see different. It's just how do you get those people out of a ... how do you get those people out of this four-by-four square and, like, really ... Like, they're, they're entrapped in a, in the same kinda box that the people at Boeing might be with that stru- ... you know, it's too ... mm, there n- ... it's the tornado metaphor. I mean, it's a br- ... but it applies in politics too. Like, the- there needs to just be a tornado through politics, and we need to figure, we need to just like lay all this other stuff aside and just figure out what's really pissing everybody off, what's really affecting our quality of life. A lot of the times we're arguing over the symptoms of problems instead of identifying the problems, if that makes any sense. I mean, that (laughs) if Jordan Peterson were here, he would tell us about fire-

Lex Fridman 21:47 Yeah.

Oliver Anthony 21:47 ... and how important that is, and burning a- ... and, like, it d- but it is all the same.

Lex Fridman 21:50 Water and fire and ice-

Oliver Anthony 21:51 (laughs)

Lex Fridman 21:52 ... metaphor. And there would definitely be a connection to the Bible, and then-

Oliver Anthony 21:56 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 21:56 ... we would receive a three-hour lecture, and it would be profound.

Oliver Anthony 21:57 But it's true. But it is ... it's all true. Like, that's-

Lex Fridman 21:59 Yeah, it's all true.

Oliver Anthony 22:00 (laughs)

Lex Fridman 22:00 It is all, it's all 100% accurate. Yeah, that's the crazy thing. But it all ties into that same thing. Like, you, um ... Yeah, in politics now, it's almost like there's a rule book that you have to follow, and if you ... you can't agree with this unless you also agree with that. You know, it's like ... and maybe it's like the places, the way that we receive information about what's going on in the political landscape is always so biased, and it's like the ... Well, it's, it's contingent upon this algorithm, this, like, algor- algorithmic system that we live under where we're fed ... it's like we're almost fed certain subcateg- and it's, and it's easy to fall into that because you don't like hearing things you disagree with, and so it's a lot easier to just turn the TV on or go on Facebook and look at whatever page posts things that you know you're gonna consistently agree with every day, and that's not gonna challenge the way you think in any little way. You know, or, or like expands your thinking at all. It's, it's easy to just f- ... it's kinda like a, it's a cult-like type of thing. It's like (laughs) , you know, here's ... this is what we all agree with, and if you don't then gong it, you know? Like ... But it, it doesn't w- ... it ... we're far too complicated for it to really work that way. Well, this actually relates to one of my favorite things in your conversation with Jordan, where you're just (laughs) where you, where you're just shooting the shit about, like, uh, playing live music, and he goes to Kierkegaard.

Oliver Anthony 23:17 (laughs) Yes.

Lex Fridman 23:18 Just, like, Soren Kierkegaard, the philosopher.

Oliver Anthony 23:21 (laughs) Yes.

Lex Fridman 23:22 (laughs) I, I love Jordan so much.

Oliver Anthony 23:23 I do too.

Lex Fridman 23:24 (laughs) He just goes to Carl Jung-

Oliver Anthony 23:26 (laughs)

Lex Fridman 23:27 ... and Nietzsche, um. And there, this idea from Kierkegaard that the crowd is untruth. So when you ... th- there's elements to the crowd that loses the humanity and the honesty of a, an individual that makes up the crowd, 'cause the default incentive of the crowd is to conform to some kinda narrative. It's like a, it's like a distributed system that arrives at a narrative and the narrative c- holds control over that crowd as opposed to the individual humans who are thinking for themselves and being honest with their own thoughts and realities and so on. And so that ... he, he was saying that as a reason, from a communication perspective ...... to speak to individuals in the crowd, not to the crowd.

Oliver Anthony 24:16 Hmm.

Lex Fridman 24:17 So from the performer perspective, the moment you speak to the crowd, you're speaking to the lie that is the crowd, according to Søren Kierkegaard. It's pretty hardcore.

Oliver Anthony 24:25 Mm-hmm.

Lex Fridman 24:26 Kierkegaard is pretty hardcore. Jordan is pretty hardcore.

Oliver Anthony 24:28 But that is true. I mean, and, but spec- but sp- specifically in my case, I mean, really, it applies more than it probably does in a lot of cases with crowds and music. You know, talking about Richmond, I wasn't necessarily even excited that Richmond did as well as it did. It was like, in a way, it was almost like alarming that it did so well, you know? And so those crowds that show up, like, maybe they do like my music, but I also think they're there for something... There is something bigger about it. I mean, I, I wish I woulda done a better job of having people there at shows to capture some of those crowds I had in '24, man.

Lex Fridman 25:08 You mean the size, the intensity?

Oliver Anthony 25:09 The intensity. Like, it was revolutionary almost.

Lex Fridman 25:13 Song of Revolution. You know, I think of Redemption Song from Bob Marley. Like, that song, it just connected with people. There's something there.

Oliver Anthony 25:22 Well, and, and so many people identified different element- like I said, it goes back to when we were kind of talking when we first got here, but it was cr- it was crazy how it was almost like at the beginning, with, along with the scrutiny and some of the other things, it was a lot of different people, like, almost fighting over me or fighting over it. Like, 'cause it resonated with different... It gr- it resonated with people who voted differently than each other, which is, which is probably a pretty terrifying thing if you're, if you're in the business of keeping people divided and angry at each other. So, uh, it wa- you know, it was a... (sighs) It was one of the fir- one of the only times that I can think where there was that, that much of a sense of u- unity among people who otherwise wouldn't. I mean, like, I mean, I think about 9/11 when I was a kid. I was in fourth grade, but God, man, people were just like, people just put everything aside there for a little while, and it was kinda, it was kinda like there's bigger problems that just aren't in our face, and if w- man, if they're in your face for, just for a second or two, you realize like (sighs) it's, (sighs) it's hard to, it's harden your mind to create a, a graph that's got like all these... But, you know, we argue about a lot of these problems, but if you were to really look at 'em, like, if you really just stand back and look at all the problems we spend time focusing about on the internet versus all the things that are affecting us, like that really, and probably at our core even piss us off, it's f- it's gotta be very disproportionate. And like, the reason it got the reaction it did is because we all, like, no matter what it is that we're upset about or what we think needs to be different in the world or our opinions of things or how we're raised or what our parents taught us, it's like I think we all feel a little bit outta control in this new society. We all feel like we're probably... We probably all feel like we're falling into this kinda like corporate power structure where none of us, where we all, we all are just robots. We're all just... We're not allowed to be ourselves and be human almost, you know?

Lex Fridman 27:17 And there was enough people feeling that. I mean, people on the left feeling like the people in power are fucking over the working class. People on the right feeling the exact same, with different words assigned to it, the deep state, you know, fucking over middle America.

Oliver Anthony 27:35 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 27:35 Whatever the narratives are, and they're just... When enough of that is happening, again, with the corporate polite speak, there's something about politeness that's really dangerous. I feel like there was a lot of politeness in the Soviet Union. (laughs)

Oliver Anthony 27:51 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 27:52 Under-

Oliver Anthony 27:52 A great example, yeah.

Lex Fridman 27:52 U-underneath that, it's like Chernobyl, uh, which is this nuclear power plant that melted down. Um, (laughs) I feel like the bureaucracy needs politeness and civility and paperwork to function.

Oliver Anthony 28:09 Mm-hmm.

Lex Fridman 28:09 And then atrocities can happen underneath that.

Oliver Anthony 28:12 Mm-hmm.

Lex Fridman 28:13 So everybody, people in power with a smile on their face, can just do horrific things.

Oliver Anthony 28:19 Mm-hmm.

Lex Fridman 28:20 And then give propaganda that, look, you know, it's rainbows and sunshine and, and unicorns. Yeah. So, people that are rude... I mean, I'm starting to awaken to this a little bit, like, you need a little, like Tom Waits says, uh, "I like my Tom with a little drop of poison." You need some like, some poison, some, some swearing, some meanness, some bullshit, some, like, intensity to shake up a system, because when it, uh, sort of converges towards this polite bureaucracy, the atrocities can happen and hidden away.

Oliver Anthony 28:58 And what's probably the most terrifying to me is that that politeness is just theatrical, whereas it, it emulates the respect that we would normally give each other in society, if we were healthy and functional.

Lex Fridman 29:10 What was the process of writing that song? I mean, it really spoke to the pain of, and the anger of millions of people. So there's magic there.

Oliver Anthony 29:20 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 29:20 Was, uh, wh- how many, how many edits? (laughs) How many like lines did you write? Were there any lines that you were like tormented by, haunted by, "Come back. Should I do it this way or this way or that?"

Oliver Anthony 29:32 Do you, do you have a w- I don't know. Do you, can you pull TikTok up on this? So if you go to my page, so if you go down-

Lex Fridman 29:39 There's some chickens.

Oliver Anthony 29:41 Go, yeah, go down pre-Richmond. You can see the original version of Richmond where I put it up.

Lex Fridman 29:46 This is so cool to see-

Oliver Anthony 29:48 Man, where-

Lex Fridman 29:48 ... the evolution.

Oliver Anthony 29:48 There it is. Okay, so that's r- that's (clears throat) , if you play that, that's-

Lex Fridman 29:52 I have too many unfinished songs?

Oliver Anthony 29:53 Yeah, cl- play that. Click that and play it.

29:56 I've been selling my soul-

Lex Fridman 29:58 (laughs)

Oliver Anthony 29:59 7/24.

30:00 ... working all day, double time workers-

Lex Fridman 30:01 Oh, wow.

Oliver Anthony 30:02 ... for bullshit pay-

Lex Fridman 30:04 Wow.

Oliver Anthony 30:04 So I can sit out here, waste my life away. Dragged back home to drink my troubles away.

30:12 And if you read through this, it's so funny. Everybody's like, "You're about to blow up." (dog barks) But that's-

30:15 What the world's gotten to people like me. People like you.

30:19 That's all I had. So I had-... I had just that.

Lex Fridman 30:25 You should probably finish this one. Might be real popular. (laughs)

Oliver Anthony 30:29 (laughs)

Lex Fridman 30:29 That's the post from a few days later.

Oliver Anthony 30:30 (clears throat) That was in, that was in-

Lex Fridman 30:33 Oh-

Oliver Anthony 30:33 ... July.

Lex Fridman 30:34 ... fuck. That's so inspiring, man.

Oliver Anthony 30:36 So that's what I had. Yeah.

Lex Fridman 30:37 That's so inspiring. That's what, like, a couple of weeks before, uh, you posted the final ver-

Oliver Anthony 30:44 Well, that's all I had ver- yeah, that's all I had written at that point. Like, that, in my mind, that's what, that's the inspiration for the song was that little bit. And I wrote that just 'cause I was on job sites all day, and, um, you know, going into, like, all these just terrible places to work, like, dealing with different contractors and stuff. You were talking about wanting to go and talk to blue-collar people and all. It's like, that's what I did for work, basically, for eight years, was build long-term relationships with people in blue collar. I was in the industrial space, so I would talk, sometimes I'd talk to 20 different people a day, you know? When you sit in a job site trailer and talk to, and talk to a group of dudes, like, and you're not there with some news camera, you're just there as like a random dude, like you hear so much about what really goes on behind the scenes of, of the structure of what builds, um, what builds this country and keeps it going. And, um, I think that's probably what it was. It was just a... It was how I felt, but also how, I guess, a lot of other, like, you know. It was just... I don't know, it just seemed like the truth. So...

Lex Fridman 31:43 So you jotted down even to the details, like, in a notebook? Like those words?

Oliver Anthony 31:48 No, it's always just on my phone. I would just keep recording the... I would just keep... You know, like (clears throat) so if you were to go back to TikTok, like, and look at any of those original videos, um ... (sighs) So, like, the songs that ended up charting, let's say, like the ones that were on there that charted with Richmond, like this, I've Got to Get Sober. So literally-

Lex Fridman 32:12 That's a good song. Yeah.

Oliver Anthony 32:13 So literally what I did was this video, I took it in my property. This is my carport where my camper was.

Lex Fridman 32:18 Mm-hmm.

Oliver Anthony 32:19 And, uh, I took this video, I went to some sketchy virus-ridden MP3 to WAV file, or MP4 to WAV file transfer thing. I would rip the audio off of this video, put this on TikTok, and then put that on DistroKid, and that's the, that was the song. But basically, like this would, this would have been the first time I played, I've Got to Get Sober all the way through. Like, I would just keep writing it and working on it, writing it and record myself. And maybe I would record myself 30 times over the period of like two months. You know what I mean?

Lex Fridman 32:48 Oh, but it's... When you say writing, you mean in your head, not actually typed out or written anywhere.

Oliver Anthony 32:52 Right. It was just video-

Lex Fridman 32:54 Just like real quick-

Oliver Anthony 32:54 It was mostly just video, yeah.

Lex Fridman 32:55 ... over and over, (laughs) just videos.

Oliver Anthony 32:56 I'm just trying to figure out how to make it... Yeah. But that's what all these, all these are... Like the audio file from all these videos is what's-

Lex Fridman 33:04 Yeah.

Oliver Anthony 33:04 ... is what ended up on S- Spotify and all that. You know what I mean? Like...

Lex Fridman 33:07 This is c- it's cool to see these videos before you blew up. So this is a good song. You're playing I've Gots... So what, what is this? At the end?

Oliver Anthony 33:14 ... middle life.

33:15 Yeah. What...

33:16 We've been given.

33:16 Yeah. These were all...

33:17 And the way we've been living.

Lex Fridman 33:19 Don't sell your soul, brother. This is the best music I've heard in a long time. That's a comment before you blew up.

Oliver Anthony 33:26 Yeah.

33:27 Some people write songs on living just right.

33:28 Yeah, I think I had about 10,000 followers or something.

33:31 I write mine on just getting by.

Lex Fridman 33:33 What a fucking song. That's a good one.

Oliver Anthony 33:36 I'll go out on a whim. Start crying to him.

33:37 And you gotta thank, like this was... Like, that was my...

33:41 To him it sounds so sweet.

33:43 That was when I quit drink- You know what I mean? Like, so that...

33:47 But the troubles and the sin of the world that were his knocked me back off my feet.

Lex Fridman 33:56 So that's coming from, from, from your heart right there. Just imagine the-

Oliver Anthony 34:02 Now I'll get sober. Gotta start living right.

Lex Fridman 34:04 ... the thousands of people you helped with that.

Oliver Anthony 34:06 I don't know how it's gonna go.

34:09 Yeah.

34:09 But it ain't gonna happen tonight. So pour 'em down strong, till I drown. And if I wake up tomorrow, when that sun comes back around. I'll be wishing I was sober.

34:34 It's so crazy how those cicadas and stuff come in, like...

Lex Fridman 34:40 (laughs)

Oliver Anthony 34:40 I just felt like it was a God. I don't know how to-

Lex Fridman 34:41 Yeah.

Oliver Anthony 34:42 ... add the bir- Like, that's just off my phone. All that stuff's just there, you know.

34:45 Well, the liquor and the beer, they've been saving my soul. From the pain that the world's put on me. And Lord, I know that upstairs, there's an old man who cares. And one day he'll set me free. I'll go out on a whim. Start crying to him.

Lex Fridman 35:12 That's a genius of song... That's genius, brother.

Oliver Anthony 35:14 (clears throat) It's just cra-

Lex Fridman 35:15 That's genius.

Oliver Anthony 35:15 It's just crazy to think about. Yeah.

Lex Fridman 35:20 And what's this one right before? What is this? Oh, yeah.

Oliver Anthony 35:25 Yeah, so that's like the private...

Lex Fridman 35:29 And this is him as-

Oliver Anthony 35:30 That was from 8...

Lex Fridman 35:30 ... recording. Got it.

Oliver Anthony 35:31 Yeah, so this video got uploaded and then Draven from Radio WV would have gotten a hold of me in between this and that. He watched this and was like, "Dude, you got..." He said, "We gotta record that one." And that, like s- I didn't have it all, th- I just had whatever was in that video is all I had written. It was, I did- I think it was just the chorus and the first verse. Draven saw that video.

Lex Fridman 35:54 And said, "We gotta do this one."

Oliver Anthony 35:55 Reach out to me to record, and he's like, "Yeah." He's like, "No, we gotta do that one." And I was like, "Dude, that's all I got."

Lex Fridman 36:01 Tell me about that guy. Draven.

Oliver Anthony 36:03 He probably is like, you know, he's probably like my best friend now. We, we hit it off with this and we're like bai- we're like brothers now, I guess. But he's-

Lex Fridman 36:11 Can you talk about what he's doing for country, uh, for music in general, for country music, for discovering talent, for like...

Oliver Anthony 36:17 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 36:18 I mean, he clearly sees something in people.

Oliver Anthony 36:21 Yeah, he's just this... He's a little bit younger than I am, and he's...... he wrote music and played, and he's got some of his, if you look up Draven Rife, he's going to kill me for even saying this, but he's got some pretty ... Dude, he can't ... If he was like a pop singer, he would be like a ... He can write the most catchy stuff ever. Um-

Lex Fridman 36:38 (laughs) Let's go.

Oliver Anthony 36:40 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 36:40 (laughs)

Oliver Anthony 36:40 So, click on like, I don't know, like-

Lex Fridman 36:42 Bye-bye?

Oliver Anthony 36:42 ... yeah, here you go.

Lex Fridman 36:43 All right. (guitar music plays) That's him?

Oliver Anthony 36:46 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 36:54 Where is this from? Five years ago.

Oliver Anthony 36:58 I was feeling on my way. I was ten years old. Walking underneath a blanket of West Virginia snow. Then I walked right by a No Trespass sign. Yeah, the grass looked green across property line. Bye, bye. Bye, bye. Bye, bye.

Lex Fridman 37:16 You know, he could probably do ... If he does that (laughs) -

Oliver Anthony 37:20 Bye, bye.

Lex Fridman 37:20 ... he could probably be real famous. (laughs)

Oliver Anthony 37:23 Well, he-

Lex Fridman 37:23 He's got a certain look.

Oliver Anthony 37:24 That dude will sit there, and he'll just like ... We'll just be sitting there at like 2:00 in the morning, and he'll just all of a sudden do this little thing, and he's got like the most amazing first part of this like song or ... We just started to co-write together, like in the last few months, so I'm really excited for that, but ... If you go to his ... This is really funny too. I'm sorry, Draven. I love you, man. So, go to Videos, and go to oldest first. This is what's so awesome about Draven. He was originally working for this lady who was trying to develop different types of hair care products.

Lex Fridman 37:52 Mm-hmm.

Oliver Anthony 37:52 But he thought the market was too saturated, so he was going to get into beard oil. So, he created Radio WV as like a fake plug page for his Burly Boy beard brand he was working with.

Lex Fridman 38:04 (laughs)

Oliver Anthony 38:04 So, like, click ... Like, if you look at, uh, yeah, like that very first video.

Lex Fridman 38:08 That, yeah.

Oliver Anthony 38:09 Yeah. It's like, it's got all of his beard products, and if you look there's-

Lex Fridman 38:13 (laughs)

Oliver Anthony 38:13 ... there's multiple ones like that.

Lex Fridman 38:14 Yeah.

Oliver Anthony 38:15 So, he started it just to do this beard thing with, and then like, I don't know, he just kind of felt called to like keep going with it, and it, and it just sort of naturally progressed from there.

Lex Fridman 38:24 You know, that too is inspiring, like you start out one way, and then you discover something real special. I mean, he's got a ... He's got an eye for how to bring out ... I don't know what it is, like the, both the audio side and the video side, how to bring out the best in people.

Oliver Anthony 38:39 He says he just wants it to sound like the way he likes hearing it, which kind of makes sense, you know. Like it's kind of in the same way talking about when we were talking about setting the cameras up, and a professional would tell you you needed three lights-

Lex Fridman 38:50 Yeah.

Oliver Anthony 38:50 ... and you're like, "Well, I think it would work with the ..." He's just kind of like, "Well, it'll just work like this."

Lex Fridman 38:54 Yeah.

Oliver Anthony 38:54 And ...

Lex Fridman 38:54 And do it in a way where he likes it, yeah, just do it for yourself.

Oliver Anthony 38:57 He does it 'cause he loves it, and that-

Lex Fridman 38:59 Mm-hmm.

Oliver Anthony 38:59 And you can s- It shows, you know.

Lex Fridman 39:00 Yeah, you can see it in there.

Oliver Anthony 39:01 Um.

Lex Fridman 39:02 And there's some good talent. Like he was showing me this new lady, Gabriel-

Oliver Anthony 39:05 (laughs) Yeah, she's got a ... But not a lot of people would, uh, record her doing that song. But he's like, "I don't know. It just was different. I just thought people ought to hear it." But he's ... Man, it was a blessing that he came along when he did. It was like, um ... It really changed both of our lives.

Lex Fridman 39:20 We got to talk about that. So, you posted the, the song Richmond, North of Richmond on August 8th, 2023.

Oliver Anthony 39:27 I remember I was at work that day, when it went up, yeah.

Lex Fridman 39:30 So, it blew the fuck up, straight to number one on the charts, tens of millions of views and listens. Uh, and a few days later, on August 17th, you made a post that I thought was pretty gangster. It was beautiful and gangster. Uh, so one, one of the things you said is, "It's been difficult as I browse through the 50,000 plus messages and emails I've received in the last week. The stories that have been shared paint a brutally honest picture. Suicide, addiction, unemployment, anxiety, depression, hopelessness, and the list goes on." And then you went on to write, "People in the music industry give me blank stares when I brush off $8 million offers. I don't want six tour buses, 15 tractor trailers and a jet. I don't want to play stadium shows. I don't want to be in the spotlight. I wrote the music I wrote because I was suffering with mental health and depression. These songs have connected with millions of people on such a deep level because they have been sung by someone feeling the words in the very moment they were being sung. No editing, no agent, no bullshit, just some idiot and his guitar. The style of music that we should have never gotten away from in the first place." So, huge props for that, for walking away from lucrative multimillion dollar record deals and, I'm sure, the money that was just coming your way. Huge props, you know? Moments happen where, you know, the world tests you, and integrity is what you do in those moments. So, huge props for that. What was your philosophy? What was your thinking behind that?

Oliver Anthony 41:15 It was all those messages I got. I mean, you can see it in the comments sections of a lot of the videos after everything ha- But people just like felt this spark, like, like, "Wow, like maybe we actually have a chance to ... Like, maybe we actually do have some kind of power," you know. Like, those people put that song there, nobody else, and like gave me the opportunity to make ... Even without signing anything, I was still able to make millions of dollars and have financial freedom, and like I just, I just felt like ... I felt like if I was gonna do anything like that, that I'd be, I'd be betraying ... Like I would be taking those people and, and almost betraying them somehow, you know. Like, uh, like they ... I hate the big machine just like everybody else, and I ... The last thing I'd want to do is be, is ever support it or be a part of it. Like, I want to watch it crash and burn, you know? Like ...

Lex Fridman 42:10 See, this is the really important thing is, whether it was betrayal or not, we'll never know, but you felt li- that it was. And to have the integrity to walk away from the bag of money when you felt that way, that's fucking-Epic.

Oliver Anthony 42:28 It was also, you gotta think, a couple of months before this. Like, of course, I had, you know, I had a wife and kids that I loved, and, like, I had a lot of really important things to live for, but I didn't have a whole lot to lose, like, like none of this was even really real. Like it w- I didn't care about th- like, I didn't care to lose this just as quick as I got it. Like, this didn't, this was, this didn't mean anything to me. It just meant something to me that, like, that I could do something for... Like, you know, you... (sighs) It's like, even if I'm not smart enough to figure out how to fix some of my own problems in my life, the fact that I felt like I could help fix somebody else's, like, that meant a hell of a lot more to me than any... That's what I didn't want to lose. I didn't want to lose those people's trust or, like, feel... You know what I mean? Like...

Lex Fridman 43:10 Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Oliver Anthony 43:12 And so I've just tried to make every decision around, like, as best as I can, like, what I think the right thing is to do, and who knows what the hell (laughs) the right thing is to do? But I just try to follow... You know, we all have that little voice in us like that. We all have some... What... And, and I think sometimes we mask... You know, it's hard for us to listen to that little voice spe- whether it, whether it's like (laughs) , you know, whether it's our gluttony, or our lust, or our, or our... (sighs) You know, we s- we numb ourselves with medications or with alcohol or we s- we scroll on YouTube for four hours a, a night and, instead of... 'Cause we don't want to listen to our conscience, but there is this, like, very intelligent, discerning thing inside of us that's able to tell us what's right and wrong, and it's a s- it's a spiritual thing, I guess, and I just try to l- I just try to listen to that when I can. I don't know. I just still feel like I haven't done enough with it.

Lex Fridman 44:04 I think you, uh, I think you did a lot. I think you did a lot. I think you're an inspiration. You've helped a huge number of people, and you're also an inspiration to the other side of it, which is the artists, and just the humans to have integrity. I don't think people realize how much of a te- test of integrity fame, money, you know, power also is. You know, uh, Rogan and I talk about this quite a bit. We get to see, I mean, Joe especially, but I haven't- I've had a bit of the same, you get to s- see people become famous, and you get to see how they deal with that. And it's not easy. A lot of people will s- sell themselves a bit, sell the soul a bit, give away a bit of their integrity of the spirit that made them who they are. You get caught up in the wave of it, you know? And so to, to keep on- holding onto that, that's a powerful thing. That's a really, really powerful thing.

Oliver Anthony 45:06 (Laughs) Yeah, that's all I got though, you know?

Lex Fridman 45:09 Yeah.

Oliver Anthony 45:09 When you lose that, what the hell are you? Like... And you see it.

Lex Fridman 45:12 Yeah.

Oliver Anthony 45:12 Like, you see these celebrity people that just, like, fall off the (laughs) , they fall off the s- you know, they go off the deep end. It's like, it's... You gotta have, you have to have something in your life to, and to keep you centered and to keep you, um... You know, your whole perception of reality and, like, your just existence in reality is all contingent upon this sort of, like, this center that you exist in, and you have to... If you don't have that, then you're just flying through spa- through sp- I mean, we're all just riding on this rock that's going who knows how fast.

Lex Fridman 45:41 Mm-hmm. You said something, uh, I think to Jocko, that I really liked. "Everything that has purpose behind it comes with risk." So there in that moment, I mean, you're taking a hell of a risk.

Oliver Anthony 45:56 I was terrified to... I talked about this a little bit with him too, but I was terrified to even put the song out. Like, I knew I was gonna be the subject of scrutiny and judgment, and I knew people were gonna, like... You know, I kind of knew all that was gonna happen.

Lex Fridman 46:08 Mm-hmm.

Oliver Anthony 46:08 I was like... Going back to that cr- talking about crowds, like, to stand in front of thousands of people and everybody be in some sense of unity, like... A lot of times when I end the shows, I'll always, I'll always end with this statement that just says, you know, no matter what, like, no matter how you feel when you go online, you know, everyone feels so small and insignificant and, and powerless, but I just say, "No matter how they make you feel online, or when you turn on the TV, or when you look at polling numbers or whatever, like when you just look at all this trash that we digest every day, like, you're... There's always m- there are, will always be more of us than them." And w- and all that, and, but, like, to see the, like, just to see the light in people's eyes when you say that, but the truth is, like, and it's like, "Who is us and who is them?" And it's like, us just represents humanity and, like, and, and all the things we talked about so far are, like, just, you know, the fire and the chaos and, but also the, like, the love and just, just life. Life is just such a crazy, complicated, beautiful, disastrous thing. And then them is like, it is, it's the power structure, it's the, it's that same terrible side of us that created things like the Soviet Union and, and, and it's ultimately what's created this mons- this, like, monster that we all live under today, which now is not just, doesn't just exist within the confines of the Soviet Union, but seems to almost be a global epidemic.

Lex Fridman 47:40 And then that song became the rebel call against that, against the power structures that creates that.

Oliver Anthony 47:48 Yeah, it's like, how much fire am I willing to play with? 'Cause I know at some point I am gonna get burned from it. I just pray a lot that God... I don't have a lot of self-worth in myself anyway, so I don't really care what they say or do to me, or I don't care, like, I don't even care if I die, whatever. Just don't let... Just, just protect the people I love is all. That's all I ask of God. I have this dream of just creating this parallel system that sits beside all of these stupid systems that we live under, that are all sort of engulfed in this, this thing that we talked about at the beginning, this, this type of structure, you know? Where none of us, where we're all just robots, and it's like if we hate...You know, if- if we hate the way music is and all these artists are complaining about the way the venues are monopolized and the ticket sales are monopolized, then let's just go find other places to play music because there's so many people hungry for music in places they don't ever get it, and... If you look at it, there's so many passionate people that are fighting all these different causes like- like just in food. It's the word they use for ba- for more or less starvation. It's a more polite. It's called food insecurity. But if you look up just in Virginia, just where I live in Virginia in the rural areas, how much food insecurity there is and how many empty vacant farms there are. It's like o- this is an obvious problem that we should be on Twitter talking about non-stop. Like this is like everyone has to eat, you know? It don't matter what you vote for or what, like, what you look like or any of that crap. You can, you know, like... So, like let's just... Like why- why are we living in a country where we ha- why are we living in a country where half of us are obese and eating shit food and don't know any better, and then the other half of us don't ha- like how does f- it's just... It's lack of leadership that's caused dysfunction, and so if we're tired of that then- then let's just fix it. Like, we don't need anybody's permission. Like that's the whole beauty, like that's the whole beauty of what America is, is like we don't- we don't need some greasy haired corporate schmuck to give us permission to go fix all these things that are wrong. Let's just go do it, and if they don't like it, fuck 'em, you know?

Lex Fridman 49:50 In all domains of life from- from food to the music industry, honestly to education, also to government itself, all of it. And that, you know, your music is also just the soundtrack to that spirit that makes America great of just constantly trying to revitalize itself. When the bullshit piles up a little too high, there's that revolutionary spirit that says like, "We need to fix this shit."

Oliver Anthony 50:24 And- and that inspiration that created this country was from years of people living under tyranny. Like, we forget the story of the people who really created this country. Like it's funny I... One of the statements I made at the very beginning that got taken way out of context, but I wasn't in a position to like even begin to have a conversation about is I made this comment early on in one of the shows about- about how s- about how our diversity is a strength. But that term has been hijacked now to mean something a lot different than what it really means.

Lex Fridman 50:52 Mm-hmm.

Oliver Anthony 50:52 But it's like think about how many different people came together just at the founding of this country, like people who spoke different languages, different cultures, religions, ways of thinking. So many different people came together to even create this place now and like we've just forgotten about all that. They didn't all come here because they wanted to ride on some miserable boat ride and risk their whole lives to go to live in some crazy jungle essentially that had no structure, like no infrastructure, no medicine, no... Like they didn't come here for like some glorified camping trip. It's because they were tired of like m- generations of being persecuted and living under tyranny and not being allowed to practice their... You know, it's not like they wanted freedom of religion and they didn't want separation of church and state because they were a bunch of goody two-shoes and they love going to church every Sunday. It's because they weren't allowed to believe in what they believed in because some asshole king or some hierarchy told them they couldn't and they were just tired of it. That's what we're losing now is like we've forgotten that we're those people. Like the same structures that have plagued this country are... They're multinational corporations and they're... And it's just the ideology behind them and their str- and their structure is what the problem is.

Lex Fridman 51:56 Yeah, I mean it's, uh, multinational corporations. It's nation states that, uh, are deeply corrupt and are authoritarian and ultimately abuse power and yes create, uh, elements of tyranny and from that, the- the human spirit rises. Uh, like I said with- with- with- with songs like the ones you write or at the founding of this country, you know, that's why all these diverse outcasts come together and write something as crazy as all men are created equal.

Oliver Anthony 52:33 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 52:33 What a gangster line. (laughs) like that's not an easy thing to take a lot of that stuff for granted now. That's not an easy thing to come up with. That's a really gutsy thing to- to see- to see the value in all people equally. And of course they also were, uh, suffering from delusion you know. They didn't see Black people as equal. They didn't see women as equal. But even that first leap of like all men are created equal, that's like a gigantic fuck you to the past.

Oliver Anthony 53:08 Taking that leap forward really took a lot in a age and a time when- when it probably sounded cr- And it's not like they just made a statement and put it on Twitter. Like they- they like think about how much... Just think about the insanity. Like I can't even conceptualize the insanity of what took place from the time that... Like even from the Revolutionary War until now to try to preserve that idea. You know so, like, so much has happened and so much sacrifice has been made and just so many hours of labor and thought and intensity.

Lex Fridman 53:38 Even the 20th century's got two world wars and, uh, you know especially in the Second World War the United States played a very crucial role. And there was a lot of ideological like battle of ideas going on at that time-

Oliver Anthony 53:53 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 53:53 ... of the role of war and peace, of the role of the United States as the- as the center place for the ideal of human freedom and human rights. Yeah, we continue to innovate, so...

Lex Fridman 54:08 I'd love to get back to talking to blue collar people you mentioned. Um, those are some of my favorite people so it was actually really cool to find out that for many years of your life basically the way you made a living is talking to blue collar people and getting their story. So I'm traveling across the world for a bit but of course the world that-... I love the most and I'm most curious about is the different subcultures and towns of the United States. So, I, I, I took a road trip across the US in my early 20s for, for several months, and that was, like, a transformative experience for me. And, and that's something, um... One of the luxuries I have is the, to have the freedom to do whatever the hell I want now. And-

Oliver Anthony 54:56 Mm-hmm.

Lex Fridman 54:57 ... so, uh, I wanted to take a road trip across the United States for several months, and one of the things I wanted to do is to just, to, to talk to, to people in, in small towns in Middle America. I don't know what words to put on it, but to talk to the very people that you talked about, that, that, uh, you know, construction workers, plumbers, waitresses, oil rig workers. Just people that do something real, people that are real, that don't make much money, that struggle, but have a, as you talked about, have like a richness to them-

Oliver Anthony 55:41 Mm-hmm.

Lex Fridman 55:41 ... that's not often revealed, that's not often talked about. So maybe can you speak to that? To your, to your time with blue-collar folk?

Oliver Anthony 55:49 When I got all those messages at the... We were talking about early on, earlier in this. Like, so many of 'em, and even now, it's... Even since I... Even, like, in the last couple of days, I've gotten some where they start with, "Hey, I'm a nobody, but..." Like, that's how a lot of those start, you know? Like, the nobodies of the world, if you wanna call 'em. Like, that's... It's, it's frustrating that the, the people who literally have, have, have built and preserve and maintain the structure of society that we all comfortably live in, those people have the least amount of representation. They're ignored just because of the way the social hierarchy exists, but the... Some of the most dim-witted, irrelevant, terrible people are put here and are idolized and spotlighted and they're all over television and they're all over the internet, and we act like they're, like they're kings and queens and like that they're royalty. And then all these people who do jobs that most of us would be too terrif- Either, either wouldn't have the ab- even the ability to do. We'd be ter- Like, like how many people are gonna go underwater and weld? But if we didn't have underwater welders, like... One of my best friends, whose name is also Jocko, funny enough, the dude works 70, 80 hours every week. He's on the Chesapeake Bay, uh, tunnel job now. But the dude's gotten up on, gotten on heights that I couldn't get on. He's went, he's went underground places I wouldn't go, and nobody will ever kno- Like, nobody even knows those people's stories or what they went through or, like, the kind of lives they lived and, and they're the f- They're like the f- the people who create the fabric of society, and even the waitresses and the waiters and, like, all these factory jobs that I worked in. All those peop- Like, the cr- You... Talk about the craziest place I ever worked and the craziest people I ever met was this little place called Perfect Air in Marion, North Carolina.

Lex Fridman 57:44 Mm-hmm.

Oliver Anthony 57:44 And it was this commercial air conditioner factory, which is, I think, closed now, but they didn't pay very well. And so everyone they hired was either people that had criminal backgrounds who couldn't get jobs elsewhere or idiots who dropped out of high school and couldn't work elsewhere, like me. And so I was 18 years old working in this place with people who were mostly in their 50s and 60s. But you wanna talk about being exposed to just a whole nother world of peop- Like, and just the stories and the just... Those people are far more interesting than th- than many of the people that we consider to be celebrities. Like, most people who are celebrities are just pretty boring and air-headed and don't really even know what real life is about. They're v- pretty unrelatable to the rest of the world, and so it would be really cool. I mean, that's the whole reason that I wanna go out and do these shows in places that haven't had music in them in 10 years, because those peop- Like, that is America to me, you know? How many people in Pittsburgh have been an hour outside of Pittsburgh? And even in Virginia, if you lived in northern Virginia and you drive two and a half hours southwest, you're in a whole nother planet.

Lex Fridman 58:40 Mm-hmm.

Oliver Anthony 58:41 Like, the people, the accents, the culture. And so I feel driven in the same way. Like, I would love to f- I would love to find a way to, to try to bridge that cultural gap-

Lex Fridman 58:52 Mm-hmm.

Oliver Anthony 58:52 ... to make those people relevant and to make... Because they are, like, some of the most h- And, like, and it's funny because we emulate a lot of those pe- Like, you know, modern country music is a bunch of people emulating those people.

Lex Fridman 59:05 Right.

Oliver Anthony 59:05 You know?

Lex Fridman 59:05 And there's also the, like, uh... I love people that have a skill and become masters of that skill also. So that element is also there. Even if it's, like, insanely difficult work, like being a miner. Like, there's skill to that. There's stories there.

Oliver Anthony 59:21 Oh, yeah.

Lex Fridman 59:21 There's, like, what it takes to do that. So, I, I mean, some of my favorite humans are engineers, and all they do is solve really hard problems, and they develop... I mean, it's a pain-in-the-ass job.

Oliver Anthony 59:33 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 59:33 Anything in the factories, p- is extremely difficult, but, uh, you learn so much about what it takes to solve intricate, like, nuanced problems in the physical world. So, coal mining, oil rigs, like you mentioned, welding. That's a fascinating line of work.

Oliver Anthony 59:51 And, and those are trades that are, in many cases, dying because w- we don't... Because they aren't popular in culture anymore. For everything from a agricultural to plumbing and electrical, it's like, those are all areas that I think if you were to go out and talk to some of those people and shed light on it, it would... Y- Like, (laughs) you could change the, you could change the entire landscape in America of how, of how it's perceived and, like, and make it cool, you know?

Lex Fridman 1:00:16 Yeah. So thank you, what you're doing on that front. I, I wanna say, I wrote it down. Please, if you know people that would be willing to talk, reach out to me. A good way to do that is lex friedman.com/contact.

Oliver Anthony 1:00:29 This was another one of the things early on that I had an idea about, and I thought was getting done and it wasn't, that I, I've got to go back and try to figure out, is doing...... prison shows and, uh, doing rehab shows and all that. But I am really intrigued with, like, going into those places and trying to immerse myself and just the, the mental state that those people are in. And, like, it's not talked about a whole lot, but-

Lex Fridman 1:00:56 Also people who get out, ex-convicts, I mean, that, that's a hard life. That's just a hard life to try to reintegrate back into society.

Oliver Anthony 1:01:06 Yeah. And a lot of those people at Perfect Hair that I worked with, they almost all were in some form of legal trouble. Like, there was a lady that worked on the assembly line beside me named Denise. And, uh, her and her husband had been manufacturing methamphetamine. And he took the fall for most of it. Sh- she only had to go on probation. He was still in prison. But man, like, S- Denise was a s- very sweet lady. And like aside from the meth manufacturing-

Lex Fridman 1:01:30 (laughs)

Oliver Anthony 1:01:30 ... like, she was, like, great, you know.

Lex Fridman 1:01:32 Yeah. Yeah.

Oliver Anthony 1:01:32 Like, and just such a character, like, in such a good way. And so it's like, yeah, just-

Lex Fridman 1:01:36 Denise, lex fremon.com/contact. (laughs)

Oliver Anthony 1:01:40 (laughs)

Lex Fridman 1:01:40 Let's talk.

Oliver Anthony 1:01:42 (laughs)

Lex Fridman 1:01:42 I mean, yeah, you know, like, bo- both, both sort of the plumbers and the coal miners and, uh, Denise with the, the old meth habits. I mean, they're walking the line of like, you know, surviving is hard.

Oliver Anthony 1:01:59 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 1:01:59 So you have to do a real hard job and then you also have to live life, which is in general hard. You know, divorce, kids, people die, you lose like th- uh, medical issues. And that, that can destroy you completely. All of a sudden something happens, you can't afford it. And then the, the insurance system destroys people, all of that. So you have to somehow navigate life while working your ass off in a real hard job. And those people, their stories, that's a real pain. And from that pain, from that anger, that's where, uh, Rich Men North of Richmond, that was, that, that you could just feel their pain come through with that song and with your other work. So that, like there is a landscape of suffering.

Oliver Anthony 1:02:50 Yeah, it doesn't have to be that ... We don't all have to be that decentralized either. Like if all, if there is that much commonality among people, which I do believe there is, like i- just innately in suffering and in, and in ... Yeah, like there's a guy, there's a guy in West Virginia that I talk to that he's got a piece of property beside of mine that he was interested in selling, but the reason he s- he's got this dream of opening up, um, like putting some cabins there and renting them out for people to come Airbnb. He works at Lowe's full time but he's, th- his son's got this, his son's like 19 and has got this heart surgery he's gotta have. And so he's trying to sell the place for that. And just like, just that guy, and all, and all you'd ever see him as is the guy that works at Lowe's, like pulling lumber or whatever. But he's got this very insanely complex life he's trying to manage. He doesn't want to lose his son, like he's just gonna sell everything. And like at one point in time maybe the church served that role of like when people really fell off track and they didn't have a support system and they were like on this tiny boat out in the ocean, they figured out some kind of way to rally ar- ... In my mind, that's like the dream of all this. If I, if I die and there's any like legacy left or anything done, it's like finding a way to take all the people that fill that role and organizing them and empowering them and protecting them. It's rebuilding the community but in a real way, not in like this fairytale bullshit, everybody's gonna love each other and we're all just gonna be one big happy family. Like, everybody's still gonna get mad and hate each other in certain ways. And that's good. Like we al- we need those tornadoes, like you said. We need people pissed off and angry. And, and we need people to feel like they can be angry and open about things that are wrong. Like, people should be able to speak their mind and we shouldn't all just kiss each other's ass. And we shouldn't all just pretend to be overly polite and say, "Hey Debbie, you have a good weekend?"

Lex Fridman 1:04:32 (laughs)

Oliver Anthony 1:04:32 Like you said, like we need all this controversy and this turmoil.

Lex Fridman 1:04:36 Yeah.

Oliver Anthony 1:04:36 And like we need the hell of what that side that, that the internet brings out in people. But it just needs to be in real life and it needs to be in a way where we're all like, we all are at least chasing the same common goal, which is probably that we don't want to starve and we want to have decent health and, and we want to be able to like provide a decent life for our kids. Or at least we just don't, you know, we just want to live a decent life. Like, um, I think if somehow that, that fixes like, that fixes what you describe, like the people who, who fall in despair and are isolated en- ... It i- it's a terrifying world to live in. It's that principle, again this is, I need a phone a friend thing where we can just keep calling Jordan for all these things. But like he explains ab- there's this principle in the Bible about, about those who ha- about i- the more you have, the more you'll receive, and the less you have, the less you'll, th- the less you'll receive kind of a thing. And it's a, it's just a universal law in society where it seems like the lower you get to the bottom, it's almost like the more d- like the less resources you have available and the less, the less friends you have and the-It's...

Oliver Anthony 1:06:49 Sometimes it's not even... You know, it, it's funny, but it's almost not even where you're at in life, it's where you perceive yourself at in life and what you're, what your goals are moving forward. And I think, like, you know, I was... I dropped out of high school at 17, basically ran away from home. I just c- I couldn't... I have always had this authority problem and so I just didn't want to listen to my parents. I didn't want to go to college. I just wanted to go move into the mountains. I was running away from responsibility, I guess, is what I was doing, you know? And so, got this girl pregnant, had my first kid when I was 18 or just about to turn 19, and like I said, I'm working in a air conditioning factory with a bunch of convicted felons (laughs) . And so from there everything was just reactionary. I never really had a plan. I would jump from job to job, just like most everybody else. I don't know, I just, I just got to a point where I guess I just quit believing in myself, and I knew that I wasn't doing... I just knew I wasn't doing... I wasn't filling my purpose and I wasn't being the best version of myself I could be, and so the, the alternative to, like, facing yourself in the mirror and accepting that, that I'm not a shitty person, I've just let myself fall, you know? It's like it's so hard to accept when you've had that fall that it's just easier to just, just to get drunk and, you know, just do the bare minimum you can to keep everything sort of kinda moving along. But you don't really care if you live or die, you don't, you don't really care about much anything. Like, your whole... You know, I don't know, life is just so beautiful when you're a child. You're so imaginative and exploratory and you're learning all these things, and you just, you just can't wait to be an adult because you're just gonna go out and do all these incredible... You know? And then-

Lex Fridman 1:08:28 You face the reality of it.

Oliver Anthony 1:08:30 Yeah, and the pressure and the fear of failure, like, I think maybe even my own fear of failure is what dro- is what drove me into... But yeah, you just... And you th- you think negatively about yourself for so many days and weeks and months and you, like, you don't even have a real self-awareness of like what you're doing or how destructive you've become, but you always have that, that discernment in you that, like, that conscious, you know? That little voice in your, in your spirit that is letting you know you're messing up, you know?

Lex Fridman 1:09:00 Mm-hmm.

Oliver Anthony 1:09:01 I was almost, like, in a... I was wrestling with myself, you know? And so, I don't know, I just got to a point where it's just like... I... Yeah, just a n- just a very, just a very overwhelming sense of numbness. Like, like it don't, like nothing really, nothing that mattered before really matters anymore. Like, I guess that's, that's probably to me the definition of depression, is when all the things you love and care about are just meaningless, and you can't find, you really can't find meaning or purpose or excitement in anything, you know? Like, like I think especially with men that commit suicide, it's a, it's a prolonged period of that. It's not like they just wake up one day and they have a bad day and they kill themselves. It's like, you self-reflect negatively about yourself and your life and you don't do the things that you're supposed to do every day for a long enough period of time, and it's like pretty soon you've built this whole mountain of, of, of, of mismanaged, neglected stuff, for lack of a better word. Like this mountain that you have to climb back up in order to fix all these things that you should've been doing all along. And then the- and then on the other side of it, it's like, "Well, I could just die." Like, that seems a lot s- Like, it's almost like, for a, I think from a man's perspective maybe, the friends that I've had that I've lost, it seems like a lot of times you th-think, you kn- you'd never see it coming, you know? Like, I don't know, maybe that's a general thing with... It seems like a lot of times men mask that better and you don't pick up on it as much, but, um, I think it's like you just dig yourself into a point to where it's like you have a mountain of responsibility in front of you that you haven't faced, that you don't know how to face, and you ha- you haven't been able to do so for a long time, but there's this really easy detour and it's just, you know, putting your big toe on the trigger. And it's like which one of those are... I don't know. Like, they both seem... Eh, but at that point your, your perception of reality is so distorted that like y- you don't... All the things that can, that would normally compel you to, to move along, like your, like love and joy and like your, your dr- you know, your drive to, to be that... None of that really... It's not there for you to even contemplate, if that makes sense. It's g- it's like that part is a- is, is almost like, at least for a little while, invisible, and all you see is fear and responsibility and just this, like I said, I just vis- I just envision it like a mountain that you don't, you don't really know if you're even able to climb. And then the other option is just... So I-

Lex Fridman 1:11:45 Yeah.

Oliver Anthony 1:11:45 I think that's probably where, that's probably where a lot of people go, and that's probably where I was, w- was just, like, you know?

Lex Fridman 1:11:54 Yeah, I mean, there is the, it's not just responsibility, it's the immensity of it, the mountain. And I think you're accurately describing how it happens, which is gradually.

Oliver Anthony 1:12:06 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 1:12:06 Seeing yourself in a negative light over time slowly suffocates you. And then the burden of the responsibility, that piles up. And unfortunately, uh, of course one of the ways out is to pull the trigger, and the other way out is the Jordan Peterson, back to Jordan sort of one gradual step at a time, like make your bed.

Oliver Anthony 1:12:33 Mm-hmm.

Lex Fridman 1:12:34 It's like start climbing out, like, eh, the responsibilities before you one at a time every single day, just climbing out, and have faith that it will work out.

Oliver Anthony 1:12:46 That was what was so powerful f- for me about just beginning to open my mind back up to reading, just a little bit of stuff, like, a little bit of stuff from the New Testament that Jesus said and some different perspectives and teachings. But like, you know, an apostle would be in prison, like, basically being tortured and facing death, but like-... just overjoyed in writing about talking about- it's all about your perspective of things, like. I said, like, that's why I never could understand why, you know, like celebrities or professional... I mean, giving one example of many, like a Kurt Cobain-type scenario, where you have a guy that's just immensely talented, just will always be loved by plenty of people. Like, I never could understand why that guy-

Lex Fridman 1:13:28 There's a ocean of quiet suffering in a, in a lot of... And I think it is disproportionately in men, in a lot of men, and they hide it well.

Oliver Anthony 1:13:39 That's why blue-collar workers have such a high suicide rate and all too, and why it is so important to talk to those people and...

Lex Fridman 1:13:46 Yeah, it's in the... You can see it in their eyes. And there, there, there is, (laughs) there is a lot of pain there.

Oliver Anthony 1:13:53 Without, like, trying to get, without, like, trying to open up too many doors, I think that's probably the best way I would describe it, is just a series of really, just a series of negligent decisions and also just misperceptions, you know. Like, I think this was an Andrew Huberman thing, where he talks about medications and how it's a lot more likely for somebody to keep their dog on their medication schedule but not themselves. You know, you love your dog and your dog, like, is just this great little thing, and you just, you don't see the flaws and the faults and the sin and the disgust in your dog that you do yourself. So, it's much more likely for people to make sure their dog has their medication every day. But, like, there's this alarming statistic with just the amount of people that don't even fill their prescriptions they need filled or take care of themselves the way they do. And, and then that also, like, over time, you know, like, if you quit taking care of yourself and you're not in good health and you're, and you're, you're not in a good routine, you're not doing... You're not, like, a ser- a, a long series of doing enough of those things, like you do... It's easy for you to just think that your self-worth is zero. 'Cause if you're not even willing to, like, if you're not even willing to, like, have basic hygiene and, and eat decent food and try to take care of yourself, it's like, why, how... Like, how on earth are you going to go face all these things that you need to face to get your life better if you can't e- you don't even care enough to do that? It's just like, but it is, it's a lo- it's a, it's a, it's a long, tragic road to get to that point, I think. At least in my case, the idea that there was something bigger than me that loved me, even despite I had all these flaws and problems and just, that I was just such a wretched person. That's what, at least in my situation, that's what I think helped put, you know... More than anything. Like I said, that's certainly where the motivation to quit the... Once I quit the drinking, it helped a lot 'cause I was able to s- even though it was a pain, it was difficult, I was able to actually, be able to be honest with myself and reflect on a lot of things that were... And, you know, you got to think, like I said, I, we watched the... I mean it was like with... Of course, in my case, it was a little unfair of an example because within a month all this stuff had happened, like, after I quit. But, you know, um, I see it in my friends that have quit and have tried to turn things around, and it, you know. It's like, it's, it's, it is the most beautiful thing in the world to see somebody, like, come to life again after being in one of those... You're able to, like, sort of, like, escape this shell of, of all those terrible things. And even if you are still in a bad position and you're still... You got 30 grand worth of credit card debt and you work in some shit job and your car doesn't start (laughs) half the time and, like, you know, your girlfriend left