EVERY SPOKEN WORD
150 min read · 30,058 words- 0:00 – 4:06
Introduction
- OSOmar Suleiman
... so the BBC reached out and said, "We want to interview you," and they said, "We've got this idea. We want to take you to a park and have you meet one of the protestors, who's been wielding his gun outside your mosque, and talk to him." It was really interesting because they'd interviewed him before meeting me, and the things that he was able to utter before meeting me and before meeting Syrian refugees was just awful. I mean, the most dehumanizing rhetoric that you can imagine. But then at the park, he meets me, talks to me, he meets a Syrian refugee family, uh, one of the girls whose leg had been blown off in an airstrike, and he said, "I feel like an idiot." I mean, he expressed all sorts of regret, and was teary-eyed that he could dehumanize people the way that he was. And so my whole thing was, and is, come inside the mosque, put your gun down, disarm yourself, (laughs) and learn, and you'll be surprised what you'll walk away with. And it only took one meeting with him to completely shift his world view at the time, which was made up of heroes and villains, the Muslims unfortunately being the villains that had to be wiped off the face of the earth so that the earth could continue.
- LFLex Fridman
The following is a conversation with Imam Dr. Omar Suleiman. He's a Muslim scholar, civil rights leader, founder and president of the Yaqeen Institute for Islamic Research, and he's a professor of Islamic studies at Southern Methodist University. He's one of the most influential Muslims in the world, and is a fearless, kindhearted human being who I'm now proud to call friend. As a side note, allow me to say a few words about Israel and Palestine. While this conversation with Omar Suleiman was mostly exploring the history and beauty of Islam and the Muslim community, we did delve briefly into the topic of Israel and Palestine. This topic is an extremely challenging one, and an extremely important one. It has deep roots and implications in US politics, in global geopolitics, in military and religious conflicts, wars and atrocities, and basic struggle of all human beings to survive, to protect their loved ones, and to flourish as individuals and as communities. I did not want to cover this topic in a solely scholarly fashion. Much like with the war in Ukraine, it is not simply a story of history, politics, religion, and national identity. It is also a deeply human story. To cover this topic in a way that my gut and my heart says to do it, I have to talk to everyone, to leaders and people on all sides, Muslim and Jewish, Israeli and Palestinian, from refugees to soldiers, from scholars to extremists. I'm not sure if that's possible, or wise, but like Forrest Gump said, "I'm not a smart man," and maybe you know how the rest of that goes. I just like to follow my heart to whatever place it leads. I ask the Muslim and the Jewish communities for your patience and support as I explore this topic. I will make many mistakes, and I'll be listening to all voices so I can learn and do better. I've become distinctly aware that my approach of talking to people from all walks of life with empathy and compassion, but with backbone, can create enemies on all sides. I don't quite yet understand why this is, but I'm learning to accept it is the reality of the world. Hopefully, in the end, whatever happens, whatever silly thing I do has a chance of adding a bit of love to the world. Thanks for going along with me on this journey. This is the Lex Fridman Podcast. To support it, please check out our sponsors in the description, and now, dear friends, here's Omar Suleiman.
- 4:06 – 11:51
God
- LFLex Fridman
Assalamu alaikum, Omar. We've been trying to do this-
- OSOmar Suleiman
Oh.
- LFLex Fridman
... a long time. It's, uh, the world tried to prevent it through the, the funny ways that the world does, but, uh, here we are. I'm a huge fan of yours. It's a huge honor to talk to you.
- OSOmar Suleiman
I appreciate it. Thank you-
- LFLex Fridman
What's-
- OSOmar Suleiman
... for making the sacrifice and coming down, or coming up, I guess, to Dallas.
- LFLex Fridman
(laughs)
- OSOmar Suleiman
I appreciate it.
- LFLex Fridman
It's a short flight, but a long journey. Let's start with the biggest question, who is God, according to Islam?
- OSOmar Suleiman
God is the most compassionate, the most merciful, the creator of the heavens and the earth. He is one god. Uh, he begets not, nor is he begotten. He is unique. He is omnipotent. He is beyond the limitations of man. He is beyond the constructs of our imagination, but he is ever-accessible through sincere supplication. When you call upon him, alone, one god, he is closer to you than your jugular vein, the Quran tells us. Uh, he's known by many names and attributes, but his essence is one. He's one god. Uh, no human likeness, no human imperfection can be attributed to him. No partners. Uh, no image of him, uh, can be constructed, and that is God.
- LFLex Fridman
So, god represents, he is a feeling of closeness that is accessible to every human being?
- OSOmar Suleiman
Well, God's not a feeling. God is known by names and attributes. We call upon God, but, uh, there is certainly a feeling of closeness when you access him. And so I think the beauty of Islam is that as perfect as God is described, he's also so accessible to the imperfect. And so the idea of sincere supplication and connection to him, we worship him alone, we call upon him alone. There is no clergy, there is no barrier between God and, and us, and that encourages...... a sincere devotion and commitment to Him alone. And so, He is certainly described supreme, and God speaks to us through the Quran. And we speak to Him through sincere supplication. And His attributes are the furthest from us in terms of their perfection, but He is ever close to us through our supplication, through our prayers, and through our connection to Him.
- LFLex Fridman
To open the door to that connection, to have a connection with God, how difficult is that process? How difficult was it for you? How difficult is it for the people that ... for the many, many, many Muslims that you've interacted with?
- OSOmar Suleiman
Well, I think that there are different layers of difficulty, right? There is the personal difficulty, submitting yourself to God. You know, Islam requires a complete submission to Him. And one of the things that happens is that if we project some of our bad experiences with authority onto our relationship with God, then we immediately perceive Him in a certain way that might not allow us to gain a closeness to Him, because maybe we didn't have the best relationship with our parents growing up. Maybe we didn't have the best relationship with authority figures in our lives. And so this idea of an ultimate authority to whom you submit yourself can be very difficult. You know, Malcolm X, who was one of the most prominent converts to Islam in American history, talked about the difficulty of prostration for the very first time. Putting your head on the ground, putting your face on the ground, and praying to God is a very humbling thing. Submitting all of your affairs to Him is very humbling. And ultimately, you have to relinquish control, and you can't relinquish control without trust, so you have to learn to trust God. To trust God, you have to know Him, and to know Him is to love Him. And so, for me personally, you know, growing up, uh, going through certain difficulties, um, having a sick parent who struggled, uh, in her life with cancer and with strokes, dealing with racism in South Louisiana growing up, it was important for me to learn about God through my difficulties, for example, rather than let those difficulties turn me away from Him. Many times, people put a barrier between them and God because they can't make sense of the things that are happening in their own lives. And so, they project anger towards God, and at the same time, deny their own belief in Him, and do away with this natural disposition that every one of us has to believe in Him. So there are intellectual barriers, certainly. There are experiential barriers. But I think that one of the beautiful things about Islam is clarity. Uh, there is an explanation for His existence. There is an explanation for our existence. There is an explanation for the existence of difficulties and trial, an explanation for the existence of desires and distractions. And it all comes together so beautifully and coherently in Islam. And so, I think that for many of us, we want to be our own gods, you know? And ultimately, we create and fashion gods in ways that allow us to still be the ultimate determiners of our own fates, of our own story, and that's very unfulfilling when you fail at your own plan. (laughs) But when you realize that there is one who is all-knowing, that there is one who is all-wise, you actually find peace in submitting yourself to Him. And so submitting your will to Him, submitting your desires, submitting your own fate to Him becomes actually an experience of liberation, because you trust the one that you're submitting to. You trust His knowledge over yours. You trust His wisdom over yours, and that gives you a lot of peace. And then you have direct access to Him. You pray to Him. You call upon Him. You supplicate. And everything in your life suddenly has meaning. You know, in our faith, everything is about intention, and there is an intentionality even behind the most, seemingly most mundane actions. A morsel of food in the mouth of your spouse, your family, is looked at as a great charity. The way that you enter into a place and exit out of a place, what foot you step in, what foot you step out with, there is an intentionality. There is a word of remembrance that's spoken. There is a word of praise before and after you engage in any action. There are things that you say before you eat, before you sleep. There is meaning even to your sleep. One of the great companions of the Prophet Muhammad, peace and blessings be upon him, he said that, "I seek the reward for my sleep just as I seek the reward for my prayer." Because you sleep to refresh yourself so that you can once again do great things. And the intentionality behind that allows even the sleep to be rewardable. You eat to nourish yourself so that you can do great things. You seek to be in a position of independence and, uh, of, of being sustained so that you can sustain others. So the Prophet, peace be upon him, says, for example, that the upper hand is better than the lower hand. The upper hand is the giving hand. The lower hand is the receiving hand. So to seek a position where you can help other people, everything becomes intentional. And there's no such thing as, m- you know, something that is meaningless and without purpose. So every pursuit is ultimately a pursuit of God. And when you pursue God sincerely, then He rewards you, not just with paradise in the afterlife, but He rewards you with a great sense of serenity and, and self-satisfaction
- 11:51 – 20:41
Loss
- OSOmar Suleiman
here.
- LFLex Fridman
You mentioned part of the struggle growing up was having a parent, your mom, who was sick. Uh, what do you remember, uh, about your mom? What are some happy, pleasant memories?
- OSOmar Suleiman
So my parents were ... Well, my father, thank God, is still alive.Um, my mother was a pious woman, a beautiful woman, a righteous woman, a woman who was known for treating everyone with a great deal of love and respect. She was a poet. She used to write poetry about oppressed peoples around the world. From her homeland in Palestine, to the genocide in Bosnia, she followed every conflict before social media, and poured her heart into it. She was a- a woman of great charity. So, when I think back to my mom growing up, she was known for her smile. My mom was always smiling, and in fact, every picture of her, she's smiling.
- LFLex Fridman
(laughs)
- OSOmar Suleiman
And at her funeral, you know, people talked about her smile, that she would smile at everyone, and that was kind of her thing. So if you were left out of a gathering, she was smiling at you, and she'd kind of welcome you in. I remember my mom to be content. She was a woman of prayer and a woman of contentment. So, I used to see her in her prayer clothes all the time. In fact, when I think back to her growing up, I think of her more in her prayer clothes than in her normal clothes, because that's how often she was engaged in prayer. And I think of her, um, making sure that everyone was included in a conversation. So she was very interesting in that she had several strokes, um, and each one of those strokes, uh, impaired one of her senses to some extent, so she was partially deaf because of one stroke. And she'd be sitting in a gathering and she'd be, uh, pretty, uh, quiet with a big smile on her face, very serene, and she would tell me, you know, , which means, "Thank- thank God, all praise be to God that, uh, I can't hear because, uh, I can tell when people are gossiping, when people are saying negative things around me about other people." Because she says even the look on people's faces changes. So it's- it's- it was really interesting because she was that spiritually rooted and- and deep that she said, like, you could see on the looks on- on people's faces when they started to speak ill about other people, that their faces would change, that the na- their demeanor would change. And she said, "I would actually praise the Lord that I couldn't engage in those conversations, and that I wasn't sinful for hearing them." And what she would do is, what- what people said, uh, at her funeral, which was really beautiful to me and was very comforting to me, and I took it as a life mission, that if you were new to a place, or if you were kind of in the corner and not- not known to other people in the community and you felt left out, she was the one that literally would look around the room, and she'd see who was standing in the corner, and who was new to the community or new to whatever place, and she'd go and try to include that person in the gathering. So even when she had impaired speech and impaired hearing, uh, with her smile and with her warmth, she was able to welcome people, uh, wherever that was. And so the amount of people that came to her funeral and the stories that I continue to hear till this day, 15 years later, after her passing away, of people that said, "You know, no one ever treated me the way your mother treated me." And she connected that to God. So that was actually part of my faith journey. When I think of great people, when I think of people of faith, she's the first person that comes to my mind, because despite her challenges, she was always the greatest person that you would meet. Anyone that met her, and that knew her, would say, "I'd never- I- I've never met anyone that kind." That was her reputation. And she was deeply empathetic. She would shed tears over people that she had no connection to. This is, again, before social media, before, you know, the- the- the heavy exposure that we have to people in conflict zones. She had to engage every single human being in her life in a deep and profound way because she had a profound connection to God, and she believed that that was her calling. And none of her challenges made her bitter. In fact, they only made her more connected to God, and they only made her a better person, until the last breath that she took.
- LFLex Fridman
Do you miss her?
- OSOmar Suleiman
Yeah. (laughs) Uh, there, I mean, yes, absolutely. But I- I feel like everything I do is an extension of her.
- LFLex Fridman
So you try to carry what she stood for...
- OSOmar Suleiman
Absolutely.
- LFLex Fridman
... as part of yourself.
- OSOmar Suleiman
The Prophet Muhammad, uh, peace be upon him, said that when a person passes away, there are only three things that continue to benefit them, that continue to extend them: a continuous charity, or a piece of knowledge that continues to benefit people, or a righteous child that prays for them. And I want to be that child that prays for her, but also does charity in her name, extends her charity, extends what she taught me by being the person that she was. Uh, to everyone around me. And there's sometimes where I don't feel like getting out of bed, sometimes where I don't feel like doing for myself, but I actually feel like doing for her. So everything in my life that I try to do, I try to make it an extension of her. And, um, that's been my calling. And, you know, I- I believe I'll meet her again. I believe I'll be with her again. I believe that everything I do that is good will be of benefit to her, and I believe that it would make her proud. And so as much as I miss her, uh, as much as I am fueled to do for her. And so I continue that, and that's kind of become part of my life. It's been my life story, as a child and as an adult. It's been sort of the centerpiece of my life, uh, to do things that extend her, and ultimately in the process, hopefully benefit me, because I- I believe that she's a woman who I- I pray is destined for paradise, and I want to do the things that would get me there too.
- LFLex Fridman
What did you learn about death, about life from losing her?
- OSOmar Suleiman
I feel like the facade of the material world...... Was made evident to me at a very young age. You know, most children grow up, and their parents want to protect them from everything, and- and I felt that too. You know, my- my mother wanted to downplay her own tragedy so that me and my brother could live a fruitful and fulfilling life. My father wanted to protect us from the hardship of her life so that we could live fulfilling lives. He was, he'd often be the only, uh, father on a field trip, even though he was a distinguished professor. I mean, he was a busy man. He- he was a very busy man, but he'd try to show up at a field trip and tried to make our lives as normal as possible. But in the process, we always understood that there was more to life than what other children were seeing it as. And now I know that as an adult, there's more to life than what other adults see it as. The material world, uh, disappointed early on so that we could see beyond it. And- and I- I often tell people that. You know, there are many that grow up in tragedy, orphan children, um, refugees, that grow up and do incredible things because they immediately see past the facade. They see through all of the material promises of this world, the deception of it, and that you can choose to be bitter as a result of that, or you can choose to be better. And I think that, for me, I had to consciously make that decision that I was going to live a life of prayer, I was going to live a life of charity, I was going to live a life of commitment, and in that process, invest in something that's greater, invest in something that doesn't disappoint. And so I believe in God, I believe in the hereafter, and I believe that God will not let any trial or effort in this life go to waste without it being repaid in the hereafter, and so I work towards that. And so life and death, I understood existence to be transcendent, uh, early on. That if I believed that there was nothing to life except for life, I would be a very bitter person, but because I know that there is more to it than this, I'm able to, uh, exist in it without being depressed by it.
- LFLex Fridman
Existence is transcendence.
- 20:41 – 22:20
Life after death
- LFLex Fridman
What happens after we die, after the material instantiation, uh, fades away?
- OSOmar Suleiman
So the Quran tells us that God brought us from the darkness of the womb into this life. You were nothing but a dirty drop of fluid, (laughs) and you became this fully-proportioned human being. From the darkness of the womb, you come into this life. You experience it, and then you go to the darkness of the grave, only to be resurrected once again. And that we are souls with bodies, not bodies with souls, and there's a huge difference between those two things. This is the vehicle that contains us here. This is the material world that we encounter here, but we are not this, and this is not our entire existence, and so the soul continues. Uh, this is a life in which we seek to worship Him and seek to live in accordance with the purpose that He has set out for us, and after we pass away, our soul continues onwards, uh, either to reward or to punishment or to a mixture of both, but it's a- it's a realm of accountability, and hopefully it's a- a realm of reward, uh, should we exist in a way that He wants us to exist.
- 22:20 – 35:45
Why God allows suffering
- OSOmar Suleiman
- LFLex Fridman
So you said that you can look to God for wisdom, to make sense of the world. Mm, there's a lot of stuff to us humans that's difficult to make sense of, um, like you losing your mother. Uh, there's a lot of cruelty in the world. There's a lot of suffering in the world. Uh, what wisdom, uh, have you been able to find, uh, from God about- about why there is suffering in the world, why there's cruelty?
- OSOmar Suleiman
You know, there's a saying that I wanted to ask God about why He allows hunger and war and poverty, but I was afraid He might ask me the same question. (laughs) God has certainly given us enough food. There is enough food in the world for everyone to have a 3,200-calorie diet a day. Uh, God has certainly given us enough guidance, uh, for us to not inflict on each other the cruelty that we inflict. When we look to the world around us, first and foremost, we have to have a sense of accountability. We are accountable for our own actions. We don't blame God for the evil of man. That's one. But at the same time, we understand that God, in His wisdom, allows for certain outcomes that we cannot encompass with our own, and that to isolate these incidents and to try to make sense of them is no different than a baby in the womb that doesn't understand the world that it's coming into, and trying to explain to that baby, that hasn't yet developed its own senses and its own perception of this world, what is happening to it, right? You know, I- I often think of the example of a child, and, you know, having, uh, been at this point now through the experience of...... parenthood. I'm still learning, uh, just going into having a teenager, uh, with three kids, and being a softy for my kids. You know, when you have to tell your child that they can't have something that they really, really want, and that child thinks you hate them at some point (laughs) , you know, because, "Why are you stopping me from putting this toy in my mouth (laughs) and choking me, myself?" Uh, they don't get it, right? But at the same time, you prevent them out of love. They're not in a position to understand that you're preventing them out of love. And to isolate these incidents with God, and to say the wisdom, what's the wisdom? Uh, you're trying to make sense of a pixel when you can't see the bigger picture. Your mind is not at a place where you can make sense of the bigger picture. You haven't seen the bigger picture. And so for Him to even explain to us every incident, uh, would completely defeat the purpose of putting your trust in Him. So we believe in a God that is all-encompassing in His knowledge and wisdom, that gives us ... And Islam is very par- you know, specific, by the way, that there is what God tells us to do, and there's what God allows to happen. So what God tells us to do in terms of the roadmap towards good, and then what God allows to happen in His divine wisdom, that no outcome can escape Him. But at the same time, we are accountable for our own actions and our own deeds. So when you come to someone and say, "You know, why did God allow this to happen to this person?" I can't rationalize that for you, because my understanding is relegated to the immediate experience in front of me. But if I know God, and if I learn about God, then I don't have to make sense of the plan, but I can tell you that I trust the planner, and I think that that's where peace is found. You know, a lot of times you look for the light at the end of the tunnel. What's the light at the end of the tunnel? In Islam, there's emphasis on God and the hereafter. Because to try to make sense of, uh, divine decree and why certain things happen in this world without the existence of a god or without the existence of a hereafter will always fail you. So the existence of a god that is all knowing what we don't know, I know what you don't know, that understands what we don't understand, the existence of a god who is not subject to our constrictions, and the existence of a hereafter where all things find recourse, where there's divine recourse, uh, allows for this world to be situated within the existence of something greater and not treated in isolation. So when you're trying to treat an incident of this world in isolation, you're going to fail, and when you try to treat existence in this world and of this world in isolation, you're also going to fail. And so the emphasis is the belief in God, a god that is not limited like you are, and a belief in the hereafter that is not limited like this life. And so everything continues onwards, and there's divine recourse for everything, each and every thing. You know, the Prophet Muhammad, peace and blessings be upon him, mentions that on the day of judgment, a person who lived the most difficult of lives will be dipped into paradise one time and will be told, "Have you ever seen any sadness, any hardship?" Now, when you think about the most difficult life, some of the commentators, uh, in Islam, they said that, uh, this is perhaps referring to the Prophet Job, Ayub, peace be upon him. Because Job lived obviously a life of great difficulty. But that a person who lived a very hard life would be dipped into paradise one time, and just with a dip, be asked, "Have you ever seen any hardship? Have you ever seen any misery?" And that person would say, "What is sadness? What is hardship? What is misery?" Now, if you don't believe in a hereafter, if you don't believe in anything beyond this life, then the recourse has to happen in this life. And because we see so many people pass through this life without recourse of cruelty, without recourse of suffering, then we're forced to try to make sense of it. And if you are someone who believes that this entire world came into existence through, uh, randomness, that we're just an existence of random atoms that collide with each other, and that all of this comes together out of nothing, then how can you put your trust in anything that is greater? So as a, you know, you asked me as a, as a child of, of a parent who suffered, I believe that every moment that my mother, uh, suffered, that she will be rewarded, that she will be elevated, that all of that made her or contributed to the beautiful person that she was and will contribute to the beautiful reward that she receives, and the recourse is certain to me as a believer in that.
- LFLex Fridman
So the right approach to making sense of the world, especially making sense of suffering and cruelty, is that of humility, that we as humans cannot possibly understand fully?
- OSOmar Suleiman
Absolutely. In fact, in the Quran, it's very interesting. When God creates Adam, the angels say to God, "Are you going to create, uh, a race or a species that will spill blood and cause corruption?" And God says to the angels, in response to that question, "I know that which you don't know." So even the angels have to humble themselves for a moment. The angels who adore God, who love God, who worship Him, who obey Him unconditionally, they are told by God, "I know that which you don't know." And what we extract from that, what many of the, uh, early interpretations extract from that is that...God knows that there are human beings that will come out of this enterprise of humanity that make the entire existence of it worth it. And so just as, yes, there will be criminals and corrupt ones, there will be prophets and beautiful people that come out of this, and sages and saints that come out of this, that show that a human being, who... Unlike an angel, who has no choice but to worship God. An angel has no sense of will, no sense of choice. An angel is created to worship, and has no desires. A human being, who has the choice of desire and worship, the choice of righteousness and wickedness, that there are human beings who will choose worship and righteousness, that will choose charity over cruelty, that will choose service, and choose dedication and devotion over death and destruction. That there are human beings that will in fact ascend the angels in rank, because they will live lives where they choose that capacity, that part of themselves, and they lean into that, and worship God lovingly and obey him. You see in, uh, some of the sages in Islam, scholars, they describe this as saying that the human being has the capacity to be anywhere from an animal to an angel, or even worse, to be a devil, (laughs) you know, to an angel. Not in the sense that we ever actually become angels or become animals, but that an animal, you know, for the most part, seeks its desires over everything, doesn't really think about, you know, many of the things that we are supposed to calculate as human beings. Doesn't think about which territory it's infringing upon, or, you know, how much of its appetite it should fulfill. It simply exists to fulfill its appetite, and that many human beings simply exist to fulfill their appetite, and they choose that over worship, or reason, or anything that is greater. Just they've, they literally take their selves as gods in that sense, and their selves have no limitation on appetite, so they just keep filling that appetite, and filling that appetite, and filling that appetite. Whereas a human being can also go to the extent of choosing something greater and disciplining their desires, disciplining their selves, because they're seeking a greater reward. You know, we know many people that achieve great things in the worldly sense because they choose to study over sleep, for example. They choose to exert themselves towards their careers, towards their education, because they believe that ultimately, the outcome of those pursuits are more rewarding than the immediate fulfillment of their desires. So as believers, we choose that love of God, and we choose that outcome that we seek, and we discipline ourselves to where we can even ascend past the angels in rank. Now, of course, I said we can go as low as an animal, or even as low as a devil, and we have tyrants, past and present, and future as well, that can become satanic in their nature, because they allow their desires to take such control over them that they not only worship them, but that every other existing being around them simply becomes a piece of their own puzzle and pursuit of their own lordship and their own satisfaction. They will kill, they will discard, not because... You know, and I always say this, it's not that tyrants, uh, necessarily like killing people. It's that people's lives, uh, pose somewhat of an in- you know, an indifference to them. They're indifferent to people's existence, and so you become either an object for or against me, and so they're willing to discard children, discard people, discard the rights of others, because they ultimately have chosen that the greatest pursuit for- of, of themselves is the maximum position of power and a, and a place to where they can fulfill what they want to of themselves without any limits, and every- everyone else becomes either a threat or an opportunity in that regard. So we're- we can be devils, we can be angelic-like, we can be animals. We're somewhere on that spectrum.
- LFLex Fridman
And every moment contains a set of choices you can make.
- OSOmar Suleiman
Absolutely. Every single moment contains a set of choices, and that's where the intentionality comes in, right? So the Prophet Muhammad, uh, peace be upon him, says that, "I saw a person strolling in Paradise because he removed something harmful from the road." Uh, he tells us about a woman that lived a life in prostitution, but that repented to God when she was thirsty one day, and she saw a dog that was also thirsty, and she said that, "I was thirsty, and God gave me water, so I'm gonna choose to give water to that thirsty dog." And God enters her into Paradise as a result of that. Sometimes the small moments with a small, sincere deed can have a huge impact on a person's trajectory. So every moment is a moment of choices, and when we choose belief, righteousness, a pursuit of something greater, then we find ways to turn things that are otherwise mundane into miraculous acts, right? (laughs) Where we can, we can choose God over ourselves, and in the process, choose a better fate for ourselves.
- 35:45 – 43:24
Seeking the truth
- OSOmar Suleiman
- LFLex Fridman
How difficult is the process of knowing, understanding what is the righteous action, of, uh, knowing what it means to be a good man or a good woman?
- OSOmar Suleiman
Well, the truth has consequences, so don't seek out the truth unless you're willing to abide by what you find. (laughs)
- LFLex Fridman
(laughs)
- OSOmar Suleiman
So a lot of people want to mold their journey in accordance with a predetermined pursuit that they already have. And so when they approach religion, they approach it like another product. You know, there was a, uh, an article that was actually written by a rabbi. I've spoken about this in several sermons. It was called The Allure of Narcissistic Spirituality, The Allure of Narcissistic Spirituality, where he talks about, you know, how religion becomes just another product of your own...... self-adoration and worship, to where you only approach religion to the extent that it gives you more happiness in the worldly sense. You only approach, of it, what is therapeutic. So it becomes just as secular in its nature as any other practice of meditation, or whatever it may be, or some other product. And he kinda mentions, you know, how, uh, he, he took that from a person that is praying in a temple, and a guy walks into the temple and bumps into him, then he curses the guy out. So he didn't see his behavior towards that person as, uh, part of his trajectory of worship. He just saw his being godly as the worship that he was engaged in. The truth has consequences. The truth has circumstances that are required of you, actions that are required of you, that may be somewhat inconvenient. So you have to be willing to engage in a sincere pursuit of truth and look for truth for what it is, and not simply look for comfort and convenience. And when you engage in that journey of wanting to know, you have to engage it thoroughly and sincerely, and try your best to remove any bias. I think that's what makes the, the religion of Islam such a phenomenon for people, that with all the Islamophobia and the bigotry towards it, it's still the fastest growing religion in the United States and the fastest growing religion in the world. And no, that's not all birth rate. (laughs) Yeah, we have a lot of kids, but, um, many people, you know, you, you met someone, uh, just before we started this interview, many people, in fact, in a post-9/11 world saw what they saw of Islam in the media, and they actually, uh, you know, went and checked out copies of the Quran and started to read about the religion, and in their sincere pursuit of truth, ended up embracing a religion that they believed was the greatest source of destruction in the world. And now it's the greatest source of peace for them, in their own existence and their own lives. And so you have to be willing to engage in a sincere pursuit of wanting to know, and then be willing to engage in sincere commitment after you know. Otherwise, the heart rusts, and so there's a process, and the Quran talks about this, of making the heart like fertile soil towards truth. So you have a sincere pursuit, but then at some point, if you come to know, and then you ignore what you come to know, then the heart rusts, and it becomes harder to recognize it the second time around and the third time around. And so when people come to me and they say, "You know, I'm looking for something. I'm looking for, I'm looking for God. I'm looking for my purpose." The first thing I tell them is, I say, "Listen, what you need to do is, if you're really looking for God and you're, and, and you believe in God..." And there are often people that say, "I believe in God, but I don't know where to go with this," right? "I, I know that there's something greater." In Islam, we call that the fitrah, a natural disposition towards the belief in the existence of God. Um, "But where do I go from here? You know, what do I do now?" And I say, "The first thing you need to do is you need to sincerely say, 'Oh, God, guide me to the truth.'" Call upon God sincerely. Say, "I'm calling upon you alone, and I'm asking you to guide me to the truth. Show me what it is." Right? And that's the heart function. Then you need to actually investigate and try to suspend bias, right? Investigate the world's religions, investigate the claims to truth, uh, investigate. Uh, use, you know, rational inquiry to the extent that the heart becomes satisfied, and suspend bias, and you'll be surprised. And so for a lot of people, when they come to me and they say, you know, "This, this, this about Islam," I'm like, "Look. I'm... If you're just gonna talk to me about what you've seen of Islam in the media, if you were serious about it, you know, if you're serious about it, then, uh, you're not simply going to be satisfied with the highly edited images and distorted facts that come towards you about this religion, right?" What are you looking for, right? Are you, are you looking for a scapegoat? Uh, Islam poses a threat to many people, right? Are you looking for a scapegoat? Are you looking for the big, bad, scary foreign enemy? Or are you looking at a religion that one-fourth of the world adheres to? (laughs) And if one-fourth of us were bad, uh, the world would not exist, right? So are you looking towards this religion that one-fourth of the world adheres to? Are you going to read about the Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him? Are you going to read the Quran yourself? Are you going to investigate for yourself, uh, what it is that this faith has to offer, and find in it, uh, a great sense of, of, of wisdom, a great sense of beauty, a great sense of truth? And I think that for, for a lot of people, you know, they, they find that Islam has such a beautiful combination of the intellectual proofs as well as the spiritual experiences that often combine, uh, what people seek in the Western and the Eastern religions. So I had an interesting two weeks. Uh, two weeks in a row, um, this was August, two weeks in a row, I had someone who converted to Islam, that went from being, uh, that started off as a Methodist, went from being a Methodist to being a Buddhist to being a Muslim. (laughs)
- NANarrator
Oh.
- OSOmar Suleiman
So two weeks in a row, I had a Methodist turned Buddhist turned Muslim.
- NANarrator
Great journey.
- OSOmar Suleiman
And I cal- yeah. I, I called my, my Methodist, uh, friends, and I have a lot of Methodist pastors in the city that I work with, and I said, "What's going on here, man?"
- NANarrator
(laughs)
- OSOmar Suleiman
"You're sending people on to this interesting journey of Buddhism and then Islam." But both of them had a very similar story, which is that they had sought in Buddhism, for example, the, you know, some of the, the meditative practices that are found, th- that really Western religion, which has been dominated by capitalism and dominated by, by very material things, and...... uh, can be very unfulfilling. They found that in some of the Eastern philosophies and the meditative practices. And then they came to Islam, and it combined, you know, their, their belief in sort of the Abrahamic way. It, it merged their belief in one God and the prophets like Abraham, and Moses, and, and Jesus, peace be upon them all, with a, a, a deep tradition of meditative practices, of consciousness, of connection to God on a regular basis, and they found that to be very fulfilling, both intellectually and spiritually. And so I was like, "That's interesting," you know, of two people in two weeks that went through that journey. So I think Islam is, is, is very wholesome, comprehensive when people actually approach it with humility, and, uh, and, and appreciate what it has to offer.
- 43:24 – 1:08:22
Islamophobia
- OSOmar Suleiman
- LFLex Fridman
As you mentioned, uh, i- in the minds of some Americans, uh, after 9/11, the religion of Islam was associated with maybe you could say evil in the world?
- OSOmar Suleiman
Mm-hmm.
- LFLex Fridman
Uh, maybe you can say, uh, terrorism? Uh, how can you respond to this association? Uh, how does it make you feel, first of all, as a, as a devout Muslim yourself, and, um, how can you overcome it personally? How can you overcome it as a community and as a religious leader?
- OSOmar Suleiman
It's interesting because 9/11 now, w- we're talking over 21 years ago. You know, 9/11.
- LFLex Fridman
You know, there's people born after 9/11-
- OSOmar Suleiman
It, it's crazy.
- LFLex Fridman
... and you get to talk to them all the time. (laughs)
- OSOmar Suleiman
Yeah, so when I'm talking to young Muslims-
- LFLex Fridman
Yes.
- OSOmar Suleiman
... and I'm talking about post-9/11, post-9/11, they're like, "I didn't ... I was born in 2005. What are you talking about post-9/11?"
- LFLex Fridman
(laughs)
- OSOmar Suleiman
I'm like, "Well, you know, I remember being a teenager. I remember being in high school when this happened," right? So a lot of us-
- LFLex Fridman
Yeah.
- OSOmar Suleiman
... that experienced 9/11 as high schoolers or as college students, and remember distinctly what it was like to be a Muslim pre-9/11 and post-9/11, uh, we can relate to that experience, and we could, we could identify that juncture, you know, very clearly, and talk about it, and speak to the change in the perceptions of Islam that happened here in the United States and around the world. But a lot of young people are born into that reality and are experiencing the aftermath, uh, of it. And, um, you know, unfortunately have to deal with the bigotry that has, uh, not just, you know, taken greater shape in media constructions of Islam, but also policies, right? A lot of the civil liberties of the Muslim community, uh, were taken away from us. You read about the Patriot Act. You read about the securitization of the Muslim community, and some of the unfair practices that have been engaged by the Bush administration, the Obama administration, the Trump administration, and continue into the Biden administration. Uh, international Islamophobia. And so the hatred of Muslims and the bigotry that is wielded against, uh, Muslims on the basis of this idea that we are a barbaric people that ascribe to a religion of hate and violence, um, has had immediate consequences for us, no matter where we are in terms of our age and, uh, in terms of our experience. We, we, we have dealt with that in different ways. Now, the association of Islam to terrorism is a lazy association. It's one that ignores both the history of violence as well as its everyday occurrence. You know, we're good for how many mass shootings a year? When's, when's the last time you heard of a Muslim carrying out a mass shooting in America? Right? How many of those mass shootings, if you were to scrub the social media, what, 400, 500 mass shootings a year? If you were to scrub the social media of some of those that carried out those shootings. You know, we're good for one or two idiots a year, right? (laughs) You know, it's unfortunate that you're gonna have people that, uh, that carry out despicable acts of violence.
- LFLex Fridman
Mm-hmm.
- OSOmar Suleiman
But when we as Muslims hear someone in the media say, "Terrorism has been ruled out as a possibility," while the blood is still on the floor of that Walmart, we already know that the police chief just said that that wasn't a Muslim. "Don't worry, you know, that wasn't an Al-Qaeda guy or an ISIS guy. Um, it was, it was one of our own." Right? And so it, it's, it's become, frankly, ridiculous because the association of violence with Islam, uh, is one that is used to actually, uh, carry out acts of violence against Muslims worldwide. It justifies bad policy towards Muslims worldwide and the, and the United States. And it's just factually so lazy. Um, there was a study just about how the media gives more attention to acts of violence done by Muslims and immediately, uh, stamps it with Islam, uh, up to 300% more than it will with another act of violence carried out in the name of anything else. So you don't hear about the acts of violence that are carried out by others. You don't hear about the religion of the perpetrators. You don't associate terrorism with actions, frankly, of state terrorism. You know, when governments launch chemical attacks or drone weddings, and do so while explicitly dehumanizing the people, just because they do so with the government apparatus doesn't make it any less terroristic than if it's a lone person that goes out and commits an act of violence trying to achieve a political goal. So the association is lazy, historically speaking. The Crusades, I grew up in Louisiana. I saw Klan rallies, Ku Klux Klan rallies my whole life, and people said, "Well, that's a thing of the past." Well, guess what, (laughs) you know? We see many semblances, many acts that are carried out with the same vitriol that was generated by the Ku Klux Klan. We have people standing in front of our mosques that belong to right-wing hate militias carrying, uh, AR-15s, talking about wanting to inflict harm on Muslims. I have been to Christchurch, New Zealand...... and bury the victims of a White supremacist terrorist who was inspired by the political rhetoric here in the United States, in his own words, in his manifesto, to go and kill 50 innocent people, in Christchurch, New Zealand, one of the most peaceful cities in the world. And by the way, Lex, I mean, it's- it's really interesting, like with Christchurch, you know, the man wanted, and I won't even say his name, but his next target after the two mosques, had he not been stopped, was to go to a Muslim daycare. So what drives someone to dehumanize people to that extent that he was willing to go to a daycare and- and murder a bunch of kids because he saw them as a demographic threat to civilization? So Muslims are terrorized because they are falsely depicted as terrorists. Muslims suffer domestically and globally because of this false association. It's a lazy association, and when someone comes around and says, "Well, um, fine, not all Muslims are terrorists, but all terrorists are Muslims," I say that, (laughs) "You clearly don't read statistics." Whether we're talking about the 20th century, and I'm a student of history and I believe you are as well, all the isms, World War I, World War II had nothing to do with religion, certainly had nothing to do with Islam, fascism, uh, Soviet atheism, right? Many of these systems where people were murdered in the millions, Nazism, uh, the Holocaust, Rwanda, Cambodia, I can go on and on, the Rohingya today, the greatest atrocity towards the Uyghurs, where does Islam fit in all of this? People do horrible things, they stamp it with religion at times, but the only group of people that seem to suffer after an act of violence is committed are Muslims, because any act of violence that is committed by a Muslim will immediately be blamed on Islam, and two billion people will have to carry the burden of the act of a single perpetrator.
- LFLex Fridman
And just to reiterate, in case the numbers are not known, you mentioned Christchurch, those are two mosque shootings, uh, with 51 people killed and 40 were injured in New Zealand.
- OSOmar Suleiman
Yeah.
- LFLex Fridman
So it's, uh, it's hate manifesting itself in- in then, uh, actual human suffering and destruction.
- OSOmar Suleiman
Absolutely.
- LFLex Fridman
Is there similarities between, uh, antisemitism and anti-Muslim hate? So, is there something deeper to say about hate in general here that is beyond just particularly hate towards Muslims?
- OSOmar Suleiman
Absolutely. Look, um, in Pittsburgh, the synagogue shooting, the perpetrator particularly target- targeted that synagogue because-
- LFLex Fridman
Tree of Life Synagogue in Pittsburgh.
- OSOmar Suleiman
Tree of Life Synagogue.
- LFLex Fridman
11 killed, six wounded in 2018.
- OSOmar Suleiman
Because he believed that they were taking in Syrian refugees or supporting Syrian Muslim refugees. You think about that, the San Diego synagogue shooting that took place shortly after, uh, he went to a mosque and then he went to a synagogue. Um, look, the idea of scapegoating minority populations and attributing to them a disproportionate sense of power and a nefarious element where they can't be trusted, and unless we wipe them out then they're going to wipe us out, uh, underlies many of the bigotries that exist. I mean, look, um, after Trump announced his Muslim ban, there was a shooting in Canada, an attack in Canada on a mosque in Quebec where six people were killed. The shooter explicitly said that the reason why he went to that mosque in Quebec and shot dead six Muslim worshipers was because he was afraid that because of the ban on Syrian refugees in the United States, they would come to Canada, and he didn't want them to feel welcomed in Canada. S- so there is a connection, and I think it's when you are able to dehumanize large groups of people and attribute a nefarious element to them, then unfortunately, in a world that's becoming more and more polarized where people are able to construct their entire worldviews based on an algorithm that their social media, uh, caters to, you're going to have some of these attacks happen, and there's going to be an unfortunate connection between them. So what I- what I tell people is that, you know, uh, I think with all of these people that shoot up synagogues and shoot up mosques, and even before that actually, the, uh, Charleston, uh, South Carolina, uh, shooting at an AME church, you know, when he went there, uh, he actually said that before he murdered nine worshipers in that church, he was taken aback by how nice they were to him. He sat there for two hours before he turned a gun on many people who were over the age of 80 years old and murdered them in cold blood.
- LFLex Fridman
... a way out to try to decrease the amount of hate in the world, but, uh, maybe it's useful to talk about the BBC documentary that, um, is- it's kind of interesting that people should check out, and it's called United States of Hate: Muslims Under Attack. And you, um, you appear in that. You have conversations with people who are, uh, anti-Muslim, and it's, I believe most of it takes place here in Dallas.
- OSOmar Suleiman
Yeah.
- LFLex Fridman
And c- can you just tell me about this, uh, little documentary about that time, what it was like to interact? Wh- what was the group in the documentary, and what was it like to interact with them?
- 1:08:22 – 1:11:44
Muslim ban
- OSOmar Suleiman
- LFLex Fridman
What do you think about ... You mentioned the Muslim ban. What do you think about Executive Order 13769, titled Protecting the Nation from Foreign Terrorist Entry into the United States, often referred to as the Muslim ban or the Trump travel ban? It was an executive order by President Trump that was in effect from January 27th, 2017, for just a few months, until March 6th, 2017. Um, what was this executive order, and- and what was its effect on your life and on the life of the Muslim community and just the life of Americans?
- OSOmar Suleiman
Well, (sighs) it was disgraceful. It was a tactic that was used, uh, you know, at the time, um, very similar to the whole build a wall rhetoric, um, to- to play to a particular political sloganeering and carrying out those types of acts against the Muslim community. Uh, you're not going to face, uh, much opposition typically in- in any meaningful way that would- that would be politically costly. When he rolled it out at the time, there were people in flight on their way to the United States that were held in airports around the country, um, children, elderly people, that were held in these small rooms and treated awfully before being put back on a plane and sent to where they were. There were families that had medical needs that were never able to, uh, come together. He specifically targeted Muslim countries to play to that idea of a complete ban of Muslims, which he knew was not feasible, uh, at the time. Now, personally, (laughs) you know, Dallas had the, uh, the largest amount, the largest number of, uh, detainees, uh, in the airport. We have one of the largest airports in America, and, uh, we took to the airport, and we stayed there for a few days, uh, s- stayed overnight. It was one of the New York Times Pictures of the Year when we did our prayer, because when we had to do our prayer, it wasn't just Muslims that came to the airport. Um, it was many people that came to the airport of different faiths that were outraged by what they had seen. So when we do our prayer, uh, there was a- a protest chant that, "You pray, we stay." And so the airport had to make room for us because (laughs) there were, like, a thousand people that needed to have our five daily prayers. So we would do our prayers in the airport. We waited. Um, we continued until, um, the detainees were, uh, freed, at least temporarily. Unfortunately, some elements of that legislation remained, and it was- it was an ongoing, uh, struggle. Look, what I'll say is that those are some of the more obvious manifestations of anti-Muslim bigotry, but again, there is hypocrisy on all sides of the political aisle here in the United States. There is Islamophobia of different flavors. I think even the term Islamophobia can become contentious because there are people that attack us in different ways, and that might not be as overtly bigoted, but nonetheless are infringing on our rights to be full American Muslims.
- 1:11:44 – 1:15:51
Where do Muslims stand politically
- OSOmar Suleiman
And Muslims find themselves in a very strange political place where (laughs) you've got one side that seemingly wants to annihilate you and another side that only accepts you if you're willing to assimilate, but no one really allows you to be a full-on American Muslim. And so Muslims find themselves in a very strange place right now with all of the political sides, with the political parties.
- LFLex Fridman
Where do Muslims sit politically? Are they politically engaged in the function of the United States? Where do they find themselves politically as a community?
- OSOmar Suleiman
So Muslims find themselves in an awkward place politically. That's the best way to put it. We are a religious community, and so we don't find ourselves welcomed, uh, by the left, which has a hostility towards religion in most left spaces and most liberal spaces, and-
- LFLex Fridman
In general because it's, um, kind of religion has, uh, many conservative elements.
- OSOmar Suleiman
Right, so the Muslim community is, in its nature, conservative, for what that's worth, right? It's a conservative community. It's a community that has certain orthodoxies and practices that would make it disagreeable in its nature and its practice to many on the left. And many on the right just see us as a group of foreigners and a threat in that regard. So, um, we find ourselves in this awkward place. There's also the...... presence of sort of the pro-Israel, uh, dominance of both parties. The foreign policy of both parties is detrimental to Muslims globally. Um, the securitization of the Muslim community in the name of countering violent extremism. Unfortunately, the Muslim community has had both Republican and Democratic administrations just run over its rights. So we find ourselves kind of in this awkward space, right? We are a religious community that's also a minority. The racialization of the Muslim community sort of robs us of who we are, and how we get to engage then with, uh, different platforms and different peoples, uh, around us. So, we find ourselves in a very awkward place.
- LFLex Fridman
Is there, in general, a lack of representation in, uh, places of power, in- in politics?
- OSOmar Suleiman
I don't think representation is everything. I think that representation can actually be detrimental sometimes, because you can have people that, uh, represent you, but that don't actually represent your po- your- your priorities as a community, as a faith community. So, we don't want to be tokenized as a community, right? We want to be engaged, and engage fully as Muslims, and be respected as American Muslims. You know, I wrote something at the time, actually, of Muslim ban. I wrote an article for CNN called I Am Not Your American Muslim. I Am Not Your American Muslim, because we are not a tool of liberals against conservatives, nor are we simply to be made out to be your villain or your victim.
- LFLex Fridman
Mm-hmm.
- OSOmar Suleiman
We're a people of faith. We're a people that have values. We're a people that want to see our places of worship thrive. We're a people that have something to offer, uh, to this country, to the people around us of- of- of good. But ultimately, we want to engage and be engaged with on the basis of who we actually are, not who you need us to be right now. And that's been the problem, uh, that we've had. So it's not a- it's not a lack of representation as much as a lack of authentic engagement.
- LFLex Fridman
You mentioned, uh, daily prayer, and if I may, looking at the time-
- OSOmar Suleiman
Yeah. (laughs)
- LFLex Fridman
... this might be time. Um, and, uh, if it's okay, I would love it if, uh, you allowed me to follow along, at least in- in, uh, movement, um, as you pray.
- OSOmar Suleiman
Sure, absolutely.
- LFLex Fridman
Thank you for allowing me to join you in that. Uh-
- OSOmar Suleiman
Absolutely.
- 1:15:51 – 1:29:28
Meaning of prayer
- OSOmar Suleiman
- LFLex Fridman
... can you maybe describe what (sighs) ... What does the prayer represent? What is the actual practice of prayer like? What is the process like?
- OSOmar Suleiman
Sure. So, prayer is the central pillar, if you will, of Islam. Um, it is life of the believer, um, encapsulated into a very specific act of devotion that's done at least five times a day. So there are different types of prayer. There's prayer. There's supplication. So the- the five daily prayers are called Salah, which is the obligatory prayers, and then beyond that, there are voluntary prayers that are done, uh, throughout the day as well. So you can pray before and after the obligatory prayers, and then there are other times of the day that you can pray also. And the best prayer, voluntary prayer, is at night, in the middle of the night, 'cause it's the time that you're closest to God. Uh, sincere, um, away from the eyes of people, uh, just in- in the still of the night, and you'd pray in a similar way with the standing and the- and the bowing and the prostration, res- reciting the Quran. And then you have supplication and words of remembrance that you are to do throughout the day, um, between all of that. So, when people say, "Do you pray five times a day?" I say, "At least five times a day." Um-
- LFLex Fridman
What are the words of supplication? Do they come from the Quran, or do they come from your heart, or do they- wh- where do they come from?
- OSOmar Suleiman
So basically, you say Allahu Akbar, uh, which means "I'm going to kill you," right? (laughs) Or so they say, right? (laughs)
- LFLex Fridman
Right.
- OSOmar Suleiman
(laughs) No. God is greater. You start off with that, an expression of God's greatness, and then you recite the opening chapter of the Quran, which is, uh, known as Al-Fatiha. It's the first chapter of the Quran. "In the name of God, the most compassionate, the most merciful. All praises be to God, the Lord of all the worlds, most compassionate, most merciful, master of the Day of Judgment. You alone we worship, and from you alone we seek help. Guide us to the straight path, the path of those who have earned your favor, not those who have earned your wrath, nor those who have gone astray." So, that's a translation of the first chapter, the opening chapter of the Quran, which is known as Al-Fatiha. So we recite that in every one of the units of prayer. Um, and then after that, we recite something else from the Quran, so some other portion of the Quran, and then we say Allahu Akbar once again. "God is greater." We go into bowing, and in bowing we say ʚubḥānā rabbī al-ʻāẓīm, ʚubḥānā rabbī al-ʻāẓīm, ʚubḥānā rabbī al-ʻāẓīm, which means, uh, "Glory be to God, the Almighty. Glory be to God, the Almighty. Glory be to God, the Almighty." And then you come back up and you say Samiʼa Allahu liman hamida "God has heard the one who has praised him," and then the response is Rabbaana walakal-hamd "And to you, oh Lord, belongs all praise." And then we go into prostration, and prostration is at the heart of the prayer, and it is the most beautiful portion of the prayer, and it is the most beloved position for a servant of God, and that which is most pleasing to God. It's when you say, at that point, ʚubḥānā rabbī al-ʻāẓīm "All glory be to God, the Most High. All glory be to God, the Most High." So while you put yourself in the lowest position, you acknowledge God being the Most High, and the Prophet, peace and blessings be upon him, said that the closest that a person is to God is when they are in prostration. That is the time that your supplications are most precious and beloved.... that is the time that you can cry your heart out. That is the time that you really feel a sense of great closeness, uh, and devotion, uh, to God. And as I was telling you earlier, it's a time that your, your mind is under your heart for a change, right?
- LFLex Fridman
(laughs)
- OSOmar Suleiman
The only position, physical position, that your mind is actually under your heart, and you really have a chance to pour your emotions out and to connect deeply to God. It's the prayer of all of the prophets. Uh, Jesus, peace be upon him, is described even Biblically as falling on his face in prayer. And so, it really is, uh, I think the most intimate moment that you get with God, and the deepest part of the prayer. The word Masjid, which is mosque in Arabic, means place of sujud, place of prostration. So, think of the rest of prayer as an introduction to that particular part of the prayer, where you really, uh, immerse yourself. Not that you shouldn't be immersed in your prayer throughout, but when you're in sujud, when you're in prostration, uh, that's where you're really closest and most connected to God. So, we do that. And so some prayers, uh, are, uh, two units. Uh, well, the first prayer of the day, which is before sunrise, the earliest prayer, is two units. Um, the second prayer, which is around noon, is four units. And then afternoon, another four units. And then the sunset prayer is three units, and then the evening prayer is four units. So, each prayer has a different number of units to it, and some voluntary prayers that surround it. Uh, when you come back up, um, you express also a form of greeting towards God, and channeling your prayers and your blessings towards God. You reiterate the Shahada, which is the first pillar of Islam. "I testify that there is only one god, and that Muhammad is his servant and messenger." And then you read what's called Salat Ibrahimia, which is the Abrahamic prayer. So, you send peace and blessings upon Muhammad and his family, and Abraham and his family. Uh, Abraham, peace be upon him, is really at the core of this religion. And so, at the prayer, at the end of the prayer, you, you send peace and blessings and prayers upon, again, both Muhammad and his family and Abraham and his family. And then you have another chance to make some of your own personal prayers. And then you say ʾas-salāmu ʿaynakum wa-raḥmatu Allah, uh, "Peace be onto you and the mercy of God to your right. Peace be onto you and the mercy of God to your left." And that means everything and everyone to your right, everyone and everything to your left. So, you imagine a congregation, uh, when you're in worship, right? You're, you're sending that to the angels and the human beings next to you, your fellow worshipers next to you. And you'll even say, you'll seek forgiveness from God afterwards. There are supplications that surround the prayer, and you will say ʾallaḥuma ʾanta as-salāmu wa-minka as-salām, that, "Oh, Allah, oh God, you are peace, and from you is peace, and to you belongs all glory and, uh, all praise." Uh, almost to say that you received something in this prayer, that you receive a great sense of inner peace and now you're spreading that, right? So, as it really comes into you then, you can give, you can give to the world around you what you generate in your own heart. And in prayer you generate a great sense of tranquility, a great sense of peace. Uh, the Quran says, "Verily, in the remembrance of God do hearts find contentment." And prayer is an exercise in the remembrance of God. Um, that is, again, obligatory five times a day, no matter where you are. So if you-
- LFLex Fridman
Anywhere in the world.
- OSOmar Suleiman
Anywhere in the world.
- LFLex Fridman
Anywhere you find yourself in your life, in, in, uh, different life circumstances, any- anywhere, right? Anytime-
- OSOmar Suleiman
Yeah, so outside a coffee shop, in the grass outside of the coffee shop. (laughs)
- LFLex Fridman
As, as I did a few days ago.
- OSOmar Suleiman
Yeah.
- LFLex Fridman
Uh, so any- anywhere at all. And that means, given-
- OSOmar Suleiman
Airports included.
- LFLex Fridman
... given the context of our previous conversation of, um, uh, hatred towards, uh, people of Muslim faith, that means, uh, you probably, through the practice of prayer, it attracts people that hate-
- OSOmar Suleiman
I've attracted curiosity.
- LFLex Fridman
Curiosity.
- OSOmar Suleiman
I've attracted hate. I've had people walk up to me like, "Hey, man, you okay?"
- LFLex Fridman
Yeah.
- OSOmar Suleiman
You know, (laughs) in the airport.
- LFLex Fridman
It's everything.
- OSOmar Suleiman
Yeah.
- LFLex Fridman
So most probably these conv- conversations of curiosity and the opportunity to actually, uh, talk about the values that you're upset ʾ
- OSOmar Suleiman
And I try to make it a point to tell people if I'm about to pray in front of them. So like, in an airport, let's say, for example, I'll go to the corner next to a gate.
- LFLex Fridman
Yeah.
- OSOmar Suleiman
And if there are people sitting there, like, "Hey, I'm about to engage in a prayer. Hope you don't mind," they'll really appreciate the courtesy most of the time. Um, but no, I mean, any ... uh, wh- when those five times come in, and they're kind of windows, right?
- LFLex Fridman
Mm-hmm.
- 1:29:28 – 1:34:39
Mecca
- LFLex Fridman
Uh, we should also mention that, uh, during the prayer, as you've explained, you should face Mecca.
Episode duration: 3:02:52
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