Lex Fridman PodcastPaul Conti: Narcissism, Sociopathy, Envy, and the Nature of Good and Evil | Lex Fridman Podcast #357
EVERY SPOKEN WORD
155 min read · 30,718 words- 0:00 – 1:36
Introduction
- PCPaul Conti
Narcissism is not arrogance. Na- narcissism is the opposite of arrogance. There is such a deep sense of inadequacy and incompetence in the self that the defensive structure around that becomes dominated by rocket-fueled envy.
- LFLex Fridman
The following is a conversation with Paul Conti, a psychiatrist and a brilliant scholar of human nature. My friend, Andrew Huberman, told me that Paul and I absolutely must meet and talk, not just about the topic of trauma, which Paul wrote a- an amazing book about, but broadly about human nature. About narcissism, sociopathy, psychopathy, good and evil, hate and love, happiness and envy. As usual, Andrew was right. This was a fascinating conversation. As the old meme goes, one does not simply doubt the advice of Andrew Huberman. Allow me to also quickly mention that I disagree with Paul a bunch in this episode, as I do in other episodes, even with experts. In part for fun, and in part because I think the tension of ideas and conversation is what creates insights and wisdom. My goal is to always empathize, understand, and explore ideas of the person sitting across from me. Disagreement is just one of the ways I think it's fun to do just that, as long as I do so, uh, from a place of curiosity and compassion. This is the Lex Fridman podcast. To support it, please check out our sponsors in the description, and now, dear friends, here's Paul Conti.
- 1:36 – 19:16
Human Mind
- LFLex Fridman
Do you see psychiatry as fundamentally a study of the human mind and not just a set of tools for treating psychological maladies?
- PCPaul Conti
Absolutely. I think psychiatry is our best way to understand who we are as people. I mean, it looks at our biology, you know, how does our brain work? How does, how does it connect the parts with one another? How does the chemistry in it work? It's the very foundational aspects of who we are and then it manifests as psychology. What do we think, what do we feel? What are our strivings? What are our fears? So yeah, I think psychiatry provides tools that we can use to, to help each other, but those tools come through it being a discipline of understanding.
- LFLex Fridman
So with every patient you see, with every mind you explore, are you picking up a deeper understanding of the human mind?
- PCPaul Conti
I think I'm trying to. I mean, I think we should learn, should be able to take something away from everything we do, you know, every interaction to some small degree.
- LFLex Fridman
Every conversation? It doesn't have to be a patient? Just anywhere? At Starbucks getting a coffee, you can learn something from that little experience?
- PCPaul Conti
Yeah, even if you just reinforce sort of gentle kindness and gratitude and, and decent human interaction. There's a reinforcement of that, that even if we don't take away memories or lessons so to speak, we can reinforce who we choose to be.
- LFLex Fridman
So understanding ourselves from those interactions too, not just the general sort of philosophical human mind, but understanding our own mind. Introspect on how our own mind works.
- PCPaul Conti
Yeah, 'cause everything we understand about anyone or anything else is coming through here, right? So, uh, yeah.
- LFLex Fridman
It's all in there.
- PCPaul Conti
If we're understanding others, we're, we're also understanding ourselves. It's all feeding through us, yeah.
- LFLex Fridman
Yeah, but it's a tricky thing to step away and look in your own mind and understand that it's just a machine, and you can kind of control the way that machine processes the external environment, and the way that machine converts the things it perceives into actual emotions. Like how it interprets the things it perceives. You just sort of step away and analyze it in that way, and then you can control it. You can, you can oil the machine. You can control how it actually interprets the perceptions in order to generate positive emotions and be like a, a what is it? Like a mechanic for the, for the gears in the machine.
- PCPaul Conti
I'm gonna think to some degree. To some degree of it, the difference I think, at least as I understand, I think of machines as not being inscrutable, right? That, that if there's enough study, there's enough acumen applied that w- we can understand whatever it is we're trying to f- to figure out. Whereas part of understanding ourselves is understanding that there are things we can't understand.
- LFLex Fridman
Mm-hmm.
- PCPaul Conti
And I think that's, that's indispensably important, I think, to health and happiness, and, and also to having enough humility to see how people can be different from us, how we can be different from ourselves at times. So knowing that we don't know a lot and having some idea of what that might be, I, I think is an indispensable part of the process, which I think is different from machines, I think.
- LFLex Fridman
Yeah, the machines, you're basically saying machines generally because they're engineered from a design, they're usually going to be simpler, therefore understandable.
- PCPaul Conti
Mm-hmm.
- LFLex Fridman
And you're saying the complexity of the human mind is, uh, at least from our perspective, nearly infinite.
- PCPaul Conti
Is there a meta-phenomena, what sometimes gets described as sort of levels of emergence, where at increasing levels of complexity, you have novelty evolve that you, that you can't predict-
- LFLex Fridman
Yeah.
- PCPaul Conti
... from l- from lower levels of complexity. Like, uh, for example, atoms to molecules, you know, is just one example. Uh, I think, uh, neurons to consciousness, consciousness to culture, right, that there are meta-phenomena that separate from the phenomenon, from the phenomena underneath of them and, and thereby add in an entire aspect of novelty. So I, I think we are... I mean, I really think this is true, that we are all infinitely fascinating because these levels of emergence, of novelty that are inscrutable because you can't predict from one level to the next or understand fully are what make us, and not just us, but I think sentient creatures, right? Human beings, right, but sentient creatures inestimably more interesting than, than creatures that aren't sentient. And, and I don't know, I think when, when...... when you think about machine learning and artificial intelligence, I think it's that that we're trying to create, levels of emergence that now we don't fully understand anymore, which I guess is both exciting and maybe scary too.
- LFLex Fridman
Yeah, so you start at the physics of atoms, uh, quantum mechanics, going into chemistry, going into biology. From the biology, you have the functional phenomena, especially as manifested in- in the human brain, and then multiple brains connecting together through consciousness. Intelligence creates civilizations. It's pretty interesting. Where do you think the magic is? At which layer of the cake?
- PCPaul Conti
Every layer because every time you emerge from one thing to another... I- I see it as an analog, like the- the concept of the dialectic, right, where I think it was Hegel, right, who- who- who realized, um, hey when you- when you have, like, thing A and thing B and they're complicated and they come together, you know, you don't get a hybrid of A and B, right? You know, you- you end up getting something that's new, that's novel. And- and I think that describes to some degree the- like, what emergence is. Except there's- there's a whole new, in a sense, universe of novelty, right, that- that comes at each layer of emergence that allows infinite possibilities that weren't possible before. And I think that's why we're so complicated, that we're... Our functional neuroscience, right, which I think is psychology, right, our ability to think about ourselves, about others, to be reflective, is sitting on top of so many layers of emergence. Like the idea of standing on the shoulders of giants that we're... You know, each of us, our consciousness is standing on the shoulder of a giant of many, many, many levels of emergence, of novelty, so many of which we don't understand. I mean, we've got subatomic particles, everything that- that quantum physics means. You know, when- when does time become important, right, w- as opposed to things happening outside of time and outside of space? When do we slot into one temporal perspective? And then the complexity just, I think, grows and grows and grows.
- LFLex Fridman
Yeah, the interesting word you use is novelty. If true, this really blows my mind. In some, uh, either shallow or deep sense, it is true. I'm trying to figure that out. I don't know if you know something about cellular automata. It's this very simple mathematical objects where you have rules that govern each individual little cell, and they interact locally in that, you know, you understand the very simple operation of those individual cells. But at another layer of abstraction when you just kind of zoom out with blurry vision, these, uh, meta-objects starts appearing that function... You can build a Turing machine with it. You can build an arbitrary complexity of- of compu- of, uh, of computation on top of this kinda-
- PCPaul Conti
Mm-hmm.
- LFLex Fridman
... very simple object.
- PCPaul Conti
Yes.
- LFLex Fridman
It's an interesting question whether that was always, uh, there. Uh, the atoms somehow know about love, right? Like, uh, about consciousness. (laughs)
- PCPaul Conti
Right.
- LFLex Fridman
About war and violence and evil and hate and all that. That's already laid in- in that the possibility of that, the capacity for that is already in the atoms.
- PCPaul Conti
Right.
- 19:16 – 25:30
Evil
- PCPaul Conti
- LFLex Fridman
But if we marvel at just whole thing, the human project, the human condition, the, all the different kinds of human beings that are possible, uh, what do you then make of that some humans do evil onto the world? First of all, are all human beings capable of evil? If- if we're in the process, now we've got a little bit of momentum in terms of marveling-
- PCPaul Conti
Yeah.
- LFLex Fridman
... at the layers of the cake, uh, should we also marvel at the capacity for evil in all of us?
- PCPaul Conti
Yeah.
- LFLex Fridman
Is that capacity there?
- PCPaul Conti
I believe that it is, yes.
- LFLex Fridman
So what do we understand about the psychology of evil? Where- where does that originate in the human mind? Is it there in the neurobiology? Is it there in the environment and the upbringing?
- PCPaul Conti
Can I clarify first, I think the capacity for evil, I do believe is in all of us. There's a difference between enacting evil and- and, uh, a- a sort of preset followed developed plan of evil, right? I don't believe that all of us are capable of doing what the people who perpetrate the most evil do, right? But I do believe that we're capable of- of perpetrating evil, right? And the- the thought, one thought would be that there are drives in us. I mean, there certainly seem to be drives in us towards survival, towards gratification, uh, in some ways towards pleasure. And that can get very complicated 'cause p- pleasure inside can be relief of distress. So if I feel very badly about myself and I can feel a little better about myself by making you feel worse about yourself, right? Which that h- plays out in a lot of human beings, is- is that an indirect way of bringing pleasure, right? So it- it gets very complicated what's going on inside of us, and sometimes the perpetration of evil things can be through misunderstandings, anger, impulsivity. I mean, there are things that we can, that we can have in us, and other times there can be, there can be other things going on which are through the lens of unhealthy human psychology. So for example, the psychology of envy, which I think drives the lion's share of the orchestrated evil, right? There's a difference between impulsive reflexive evil and highly orchestrated evil, which I think is driven by envy.
- LFLex Fridman
Highly orchestrated evil. Are we talking about a scale of societies like, uh, totalitarianism? So i- if we're thinking ab- about somebody like Hitler?
- PCPaul Conti
Mm-hmm.
- LFLex Fridman
So at a s- at scale, orchestration of evil, envy driving that. So I mean-
- PCPaul Conti
Yeah.
- LFLex Fridman
... that's really interesting to- to think about. I- I'd love to hear more about it. So some of it... There- there might be some psychological forces that are in tension with each other, so one is, if you look at somebody like Hitler, it's difficult to know what was going on in his mind, but it's possible to imagine if you just look at dictators throughout history that he thought he was doing good. Not just for himself, but for the people he believed have value. So one way you can have w- you can achieve what we consider is evil is, uh, by devaluing some group of people, and, uh, that could be all group of people. So it could have sort of a narcissistic type of idea that you basically don't care about other human beings. That's one. Envy is different. I mean, maybe they can collaborate together.
- PCPaul Conti
Mm-hmm.
- LFLex Fridman
Uh, or even, uh, like you mentioned, you can in- actually enjoy doing bad to others.
- PCPaul Conti
Mm-hmm.
- LFLex Fridman
That's almost like different because if- if all it is is like narcissism, uh, you disregard... You don't care what or how others feel, then you can just ha- make cold, calculated military, almost economic decisions and you don't care if a million people die here or there. Uh, but if you actually enjoy some aspect of that or there is like a resentment that fuels it, it's not just cold calculation, it's like fueled by some kind of personal or, uh, cultural resentment I think it's all fueled by that. ... that's different. You think so?
- PCPaul Conti
I think it's all fueled by that. I think the idea that, say, Hitler thought he was doing good-
- LFLex Fridman
Yeah.
- PCPaul Conti
... right? I- it's like that is such a thin facade that it flies away like a handkerchief in a hurricane, right? That... (laughs)
- LFLex Fridman
Okay, yeah, thank you. That's... Wow, that's beautiful. Yeah. (laughs)
- PCPaul Conti
The- the- it's- it's built upon like... It says... I'll explain.
- LFLex Fridman
Yeah.
- PCPaul Conti
Logical lies, right? Because people can build lies upon specious logic, right? So the idea that, "Okay, I am doing good because I believe that this, um, ethnicity of people is good and this is bad, and now I'm going to do this and I'm gonna make the world different and it's gonna bring better to the world. And now I'm raising armies and I'm building concentration camps, and I think like this is all in the service of good," is I don't, I don't think anyone ever thinks that, right?
- LFLex Fridman
Mm-hmm.
- PCPaul Conti
Or they- they think that but with... Because they're living in the surface patina, right? Like they- they're not allowing the hurricane in that blows away the handkerchief and says like, "This is all, this is all, this is all evil," right? I mean, who- how do you decide that some group of people is good and some is bad, and like what- what is it that you take upon yourself to- to- to play God or make decisions about the world? And I think what really is going on is people are not doing that, right? It... There's something cobbled together to say like why this is right and this is okay, right? And this is even good, right? But it is all...... a lie, right? It's a lie that's adorning the- the... What I believe is that the fact, I believe, that what's going on is the gratification of envy inside of the person. And whether someone says, "Oh, I think this is good and it's okay if a million people die," or "I'm gonna enjoy that a million people die," I think is the same. I think the- the enjoyment, the gratification of the orchestrated evil is there, and that it all comes from vulnerability and insecurity. I- it all comes from deficits in the sense of self.
- LFLex Fridman
Right. I'm gonna have to process that. My- my- my- my slow Pentium PC is processing that, so envy underlies all
- 25:30 – 48:33
Envy
- LFLex Fridman
of it. The psychological concept of envy. (sighs) What is that? I keep putting myself in the mind of Hitler, I guess. That- that has nothing to do... It doesn't have to do with, uh, Jews or Slavic people. Does it have to do with specific amorphous other in his mind that he's envious of?
- PCPaul Conti
I think it has all to do with him. All to do with him. There's not a love of the people with whom he allied, or even a sense that the people who he persecuted were worse than him. It's all projections out of what was going on inside of him, which was an- an intense sense of inadequacy. A- a rage at being someone he perceived as lesser-
- LFLex Fridman
Mm-hmm.
- PCPaul Conti
... than. That's the difference between... So we can define words in different ways, even within psychology. But let's say w- we take the definition here of sort of jealousy as being sort of benign, right? The idea that, oh, I might see something that you have that I don't, and I might think, "I'd like that. May- maybe I'll work harder to get it," right? Or maybe I can't get it. Maybe it's that you're younger than I am. I say, "Okay." You know, "Okay, I... You know, you have that and I don't. I mean, I have other things too. I'm okay anyway." But I might want those things, but it's very benign, the- the jealousy. "I'd like to be younger, I'd like to be richer." Whatever it is that we people think, right? But it's just a thought, and it's a thought that can result in strivings or acceptance, right? It's very, very different. It's completely different than envy, which is destructive. It- it's the thought of "I see something that you have that I don't have," right? And instead of me working for it or accepting that I don't have it, what I'd like to do then is bring you down. Take you down to where I am, and then I'll feel better, right? Because from the perspective of envy, it is all relative.
- LFLex Fridman
So is jealousy a kind of... I- i- is it- is it... 'Cause you said completely different, but is jealousy potentially like a gateway drug to envy? Like does it- does it like... Is it a slippery slope? (laughs)
- PCPaul Conti
I think... No, I think that jealousy is a natural just part of the human phenomenon that we go through life and we see like, "Oh, I'd like to have that." I think it's- it's probably part of our incentives, right? If, you know, if- if- if I'm farming and I have one row of crops and I look over and I see that you're working harder and you have two, and I'd like to have two-
- LFLex Fridman
Mm-hmm.
- PCPaul Conti
... that- that can make me work harder to have two.
- LFLex Fridman
You don't think it's a slippery slope from one to the other, to... At first you're like, "I'd like to work harder," but then you keep failing and the weather sucks and you keep failing and the other person becomes more successful. Plus he's got a new hot wife now. There's a nice tractor, uh,
- NANarrator
(laughs)
- LFLex Fridman
... there's a field that's all working and then you get this idea that, "You know what? I'm gonna steal all his stuff. I'm gonna murder him." And that... You know, d- don't you think that's just like a leap-
- PCPaul Conti
No, actually I think no.
- LFLex Fridman
... of- of the same phenomenon? No?
- PCPaul Conti
No, because... Because I think there are things that are in us as humans, right? So- so there- there are things that just by being human, like, we can, for example, feel... We can feel compassion, right? We can feel interest, right? We can feel jealousy in- in that benign sense. Like, it's all part of just being human. If we- if we start l- going from, "Hey, you have more crops than I have and- and, you know, now it seems like you actually have a better life in a lot of ways than I have. I'm gonna kill you." That- that's not... That is not a progression of something benign, right? That is-
- LFLex Fridman
Wait, wait, wait a minute. But that is a human leap of the same thing, isn't it? Is... 'C- 'cause you're drawing a line s- stuff... You're saying like, "This is the h- this human stuff, it's regular life, it's benign," but it feels like this benign thing is just a- a low magnitude thing, version of the thing that's not benign. Like, there- there's- there's probably a gray area where it stops being b-... Like jealousy, you can have like healthy jealousy. You can have a little bit, slightly unhealthy. There's a... There's, I think, Jealous Guy, this John Lennon song that I love, it's just beautiful. I mean, there's like... This jealousy inside relationships can make you feel like, uh... You know, could take your minds in all kinds of silly directions. And it's- it's crazy, but like it feels like that s- that's the next door neighbor to like being really crazy and toxic and all that kind of stuff inside relationships. And then that feels like a next door neighbor. It's like an apartment building.
- PCPaul Conti
(laughs)
- LFLex Fridman
(laughs) That feels like a next door neighbor, uh, that eventually gets to Hitler with the- with envy and resentment of an entire population of people.
- PCPaul Conti
You're right, in that there's a causal-
- LFLex Fridman
Yeah.
- PCPaul Conti
There can be a causal chain, right? Like if I'm not feeling jealous, maybe I won't ever feel envious, right? So- so you can see, okay, so it can kind of lead to... It can open gates to, "Huh," like, "How- how much do I dislike that you have things that I don't have?" Right? So yes, in that sense, but... And I think this is the part that I think is so important, that I think there is a disjunction, right? It's- it... There's an asymptotic shift, right? (laughs) From one thing to another, because it is very-
- LFLex Fridman
Now you're speaking my language. Mathematically.
- PCPaul Conti
Yeah.
- LFLex Fridman
Asymptotic leap, yep.
- PCPaul Conti
Yes.
- LFLex Fridman
(laughs)
- PCPaul Conti
That- that's... It's a way to convey, right, something that's entirely different. Because if I start thinking, you know, "I'm not gonna try and make things better," right? "I'd like instead to harm you," that's- that's qualitatively different.
- LFLex Fridman
Oh, it's almost like... You know what it is? It could be, I don't know what you think about this. But it's, um, in which direction your motivation is pointing. So if in the response to the feeling of jealousy, your sort of, um, the motivation says, "Okay, I understand this feeling, I wanna do less of it."... I think there's- there must be a threshold to which you actually want to do more, like it- it becomes a vicious downward cycle. So that's what envy becomes. Like the first feeling, this idea that "I'm going to kill the farmer."
- PCPaul Conti
Right.
- LFLex Fridman
Turns into, like, more and more and more, and you can't sleep, and you're visualizing the farmer, and he becomes the devil, and, like, you have this very h- y- you know, it's- it's- it's basically a thing that builds into the negative direction, versus-
- PCPaul Conti
Right.
- 48:33 – 1:17:07
Narcissism
- PCPaul Conti
- LFLex Fridman
So we've talked about envy. Where does, from the leader perspective, uh, things like narcissism or sociopathy, psychopathy come into play? What can you make of the world we live in, maybe the leaders that run the world, from the perspective, from the lens of narcissism?
- PCPaul Conti
So I am struck, 20 years of doing what I do now, right? I mean, I've been a psychiatrist for 20 years and I practice in so many different settings and I consult in different settings. I've been fortunate to have a very wide purview of like what's going on in people and in the world around us. And I am struck with amazement that...... of all the things I see that are, say, abnormal, let's say, from the mental health perspective. This could be depression, panic attacks, uh, hearing voices, addiction, but there's so many things, we'll cover everything, that narcissism is not frequent compared to a lot of other things. So it's- it's- it's small in terms of, say, a narcissistic diagnosis, right? It's- it's much less than many other things. But it causes the lion's share. I don't just mean the most compared to anything else, but- but I think more than 50%, the majority of bad things, evil things, destructive things that I, that I see in the world around us. I think narcissists are wildly destructive because they are driven completely, they are lodged completely in the lane of envy.
- LFLex Fridman
Can you, um, try to sneak up... And we don't wanna be lost in definitions, but can you try to sneak up to a definition, non-clinical definition of narcissism that we're talking about?
- PCPaul Conti
Yeah. So narcissism is a- a deep, pervasive and unquestioned sense of inadequacy in the self that comes along with anger and fear and vulnerability, uh, fear of destruction, fear of annihilation, that is compensated for by aggression, by... Is it... By the- the mechanics of envy, by trying to make the self, uh, seem better at the expense of others, by taking from others, uh, by being completely cavalier to the thoughts and feelings of others. That narcissism is not arrogance. Narcissism is the opposite of arrogance. There is such a deep sense of inadequacy and incompetence in the self that the defensive structure around that becomes dominated by, like, rocket-fueled envy.
- LFLex Fridman
So the machinery of narcissism is envy, but, uh, what do you make of the kind of more popularly discussed kind of symptom of narcissism, which is a seeming not caring about other people? Sort of a very inward-facing focus in terms of the calculation you make when making decisions about the world.
- PCPaul Conti
Narcissistic people definitely care about other people, right? It's the people who are schizoid, right? And we say they don't c- don't necessarily register other people, right? But narcissism, people care about other people, but it's entirely vis-a-vis the s- the self, right?
- LFLex Fridman
Mm-hmm.
- PCPaul Conti
If I'm schizoid, I don't really notice or care much who you are, right? But if I'm narcissistic, I absolutely care because I'm watching every last detail of you. What might you have that's better than me?
- LFLex Fridman
Yeah.
- PCPaul Conti
Right? That... It's- it's an- it's an incredibly intense focus upon individuals and demographics of people, but the priority, the f- the- the goal is entirely about the self, which is why that then can become easy to say, "Oh, I don't care if a million people die," right? That's... How different is that from going out and destroying one person or a million people, right? It's- it's in the same category of those people only exi- their existence is only meaningful in how it relates to me.
- LFLex Fridman
But it's still meaningful. It just seems like a very difficult, uh, leap to take that, "I don't care that a million people die." That seems to be... Even with envy, that seems to be a big, uh, like feeling and thought to have if you at all care about them. Are other people, I guess, tools for-
- PCPaul Conti
Right.
- LFLex Fridman
... alleviation of your sense of inadequacy?
- PCPaul Conti
Right. I mean, I don't mean care about in that, like, being caring at all.
- LFLex Fridman
Okay.
- PCPaul Conti
I mean care about in that noticing that a person exists, right? I mean, someone who wants money and- and notices that there's a $100 bill out cares about that, where they don't care about the- the $100 bill and that doesn't mean anything to them, doesn't have thoughts and feelings, but- but it's gonna attract attention. They care about it because it's something that they want, right?
- LFLex Fridman
Mm-hmm.
- PCPaul Conti
The same way people will care about others, but only from the perspective of, do you have things that I want, or can I feel better about myself by taking something from you, by making things worse for you?
- LFLex Fridman
People often talk about narcissism as, like, the opposite of empathy.
- PCPaul Conti
Uh-huh.
- LFLex Fridman
But sort of empathy, again, depends how you define it, but is, um, is a, is a careful consideration of the mental space of another person, of how the other person sees the world.
- PCPaul Conti
Right.
- LFLex Fridman
A- a- and- and so you're kind of saying that narcissism, narcissistic people would be, also be very good at that in- in order-
- PCPaul Conti
Right.
- LFLex Fridman
... to understand how maybe the other person could be manipulated or something to alleviate your sense of inadequacy.
- PCPaul Conti
Right. So there's a difference between the mechanics of empathy. So let's say... And we can define things different ways. So let's say empathic attunement is the ability to be attuned and to think, "Okay, what's going on in you? What- what might you be thinking? What might you be feeling?" And some people have a lot of empathic attunement, but that's a, that's... We could look at that as mechanistic, right? It doesn't, it doesn't equate to care, right? An empathic attunement can come along with empathy or not, right? So- so yes, people who are narcissistic, they're- they're, they can mentalize well. So you mentalize meaning the ability to- to understand or to consider thoughts, feelings, motivations in other people, right? So- so people who are narcissistic h- can have empathic attunement or mentalization depending upon how we wanna describe those things, but that has nothing to do with care, with actual empathy, or kindness, or- or consideration.
- LFLex Fridman
So in- in that sense, empathy usually popularly used means that you care, like your happiness is aligned. This is, uh...I need to read this book. I've read so little science fiction. That's been one of my goals for this year, to catch up on some science fiction. So, uh, Robert Heinlein, uh, from Stranger in a Strange Land, has this quote about love, which is, "Love is that condition where another person's happiness is- is essential to your own."
- PCPaul Conti
Yes.
- LFLex Fridman
So that's a good definition, I guess, of empathy, where-
- 1:17:07 – 1:34:20
Pride
- PCPaul Conti
- LFLex Fridman
So the interesting exercise, uh, for me and I think for a lot of people in, in modern civilization is the, the internet with social media, that it... It's almost like going to the gym or something like that, at least that's the way I see it. Because there's a bunch of forces on, uh, social media that are trying to make you feel things. Most of it is kind of in the negative space of feelings. Because, um, there is actually a strong gravity pull to negative feelings for some reason, and so the, uh... And the brain notices them more. I, I don't know what that pull is, but it's there, and you get to observe it on social media. Like, if you actually just scroll through social media, you feel the gravitational pull of negative emotions. And I, I just see it as a kind of exercise of like, you feel the pull, just like when you go to the gym, there's a resistance, and I practice, like, stepp- stepping away to look at the tapestry, right? It's... And there's different mechanisms I think all of us have to learn. Uh, for me, there's a kind of, uh, you mentioned, uh, gratitude and humility.
- PCPaul Conti
Mm-hmm.
- LFLex Fridman
Uh, so, like, if somebody, uh, if it's me personally, I've recently gotten attacked a few places here and there. Uh, uh, you know, if they're saying that they're much smarter than me, I practice kind of humility, like you mentioned, and I kind of imagine that they are smarter than me. (laughs)
- PCPaul Conti
Uh-huh.
- LFLex Fridman
Those things, like, help me to kind of, like, pull away, like... And then maybe they have a lesson to teach me. Like, I don't take their sort of negative comments to heart-
- PCPaul Conti
Right.
- LFLex Fridman
... but I imagine the human being, and like, that, that they, they might have a lesson to teach me. And in general, when it's more amorphous kind of negative feeling, I'll think the other thing is, is the gratitude. Just like, uh, different versions, almost meme- memefiable versions of like, "Oh, this is pretty cool." Like, we got a thing going here as, like, human civilization, like, bickering and having a little fun, like lunch food fight, and it's kind of cool. Like, we get to interact in this way, and, uh, there's a bit of humor. This is like Thanksgiving dinner, like if you-
- PCPaul Conti
Uh-huh.
- LFLex Fridman
... like Thanksgiving dinner, if you're arguing about politics, y- it can feel like really intense, like, "I can't believe you said this." But if you zoom out and it's like-... family. This is like-
- PCPaul Conti
Uh-huh. Uh-huh.
- LFLex Fridman
This is amazing. So that kind of feeling r- uh, really helps. And, but it's like, it really is like going to the gym. It's like building up a muscle.
- PCPaul Conti
Yeah.
- LFLex Fridman
To be able to, um, pull away from those emotions. I, I don't think I get to practice that kind of emotion regular day-to-day life 'cause like, you can't, it's hard to get those reps. On social media, you could really get the reps in. It's kind of cool. Like that's the way I, I see social media as a chance to sort of practice that stoicism of like, uh, of gratitude, of humility, of loving other people in the face of this negative emotion, all of that.
- PCPaul Conti
Yes. And, you know, there's, there's a certain kind of psychotherapy that, that talks a lot about this idea that like, oh, everything is as it should be, right? Which doesn't mean from some moral or justice point. It's just that often if you look at things, one thing leads to another, to another, to another in a way that's actually very, very predictable, even though we might be surprised about it, right? And so an example, uh, so I would say that gratitude often does come along with a healthy pride, right? So, so you, you could say, in the example you gave, "Hey, I'm being assailed on social media." Okay. So you could say, "Well, you know, there was a time I sat out, I, I, I set forth to impact people, right? To, to, to be able to reach people and to impact them, right?" And look, I feel a sense of both gratitude and pride that I've done that, right? Because, because look, you did it because of your, your effort, right? Your work, your intelligence, your thoughts, like you're responsible for it, right? But also, you feel gratitude because any one of us who's here and has any opportunity has reason to feel immense gratitude, right? So then you can say, "Okay. What's actually gone on here is something successful. I set out to do something and, and I'm doing it." Right? And what it brings with it absolutely includes being assailed. There's no surprise there, right? That, that because of, 'cause, eh, you know, people who have anything good serve as lightning rods for envy. So then, yes, there will be people who want to make up lies or whatever they, they want to do, because you become a lightning rod for envy by having succeeded at the thing you set out to do about which you can feel a healthy pride and gratitude, right? And then I think that kind of puts it in its place. I mean, you're still gonna make decisions about it, but it makes sense then, like you, you have a mechanism of understanding it that not only makes sense to you, but reflects the truth of what's, what you actually have done and achieved and what's going on in the world around you.
Episode duration: 3:17:27
Install uListen for AI-powered chat & search across the full episode — Get Full Transcript
Transcript of episode jRBksDVs4tg
Get more out of YouTube videos.
High quality summaries for YouTube videos. Accurate transcripts to search & find moments. Powered by ChatGPT & Claude AI.
Add to Chrome