Rana el Kaliouby: Emotion AI, Social Robots, and Self-Driving Cars | Lex Fridman Podcast #322

1. 0:00 – 1:00

   Introduction

   1. RKRana el Kaliouby0:00

      There's a broader question here, right? As we build socially and emotionally intelligent machines, what does that mean about our relationship with them, and then more broadly, our relationship with one another, right?

   2. LFLex Fridman0:13

      Mm-hmm.

   3. RKRana el Kaliouby0:13

      Because this machine is gonna be programmed to be amazing at empathy, by definition, right? It's gonna always be there for you. It's not gonna get bored. I don't know how I feel about that. I think about that a lot.

   4. LFLex Fridman0:26

      The following is a conversation with Rana el Kaliouby, a pioneer in the field of emotion recognition and human-centric artificial intelligence. She is the founder of Affectiva, deputy CEO of Smart Eye, author of Girl Decoded, and one of the most brilliant, kind, inspiring, and fun human beings I've gotten the chance to talk to. This is the Lex Fridman Podcast. To support it, please check out our sponsors in the description, and now, dear friends, here's Rana el Kaliouby.

2. 1:00 – 10:37

   Childhood

   1. LFLex Fridman1:00

      You grew up in the Middle East, in Egypt. What is a memory from that time that makes you smile, or maybe a memory that stands out as, um, helping your mind take shape and helping you define yourself in this world?

   2. RKRana el Kaliouby1:12

      So the memory that stands out is, uh, we used to live in my grandma's house. She used to have these mango trees in her garden, and in the summer... and so mango season was, like, July and August. And so in the summer, she would invite all my aunts and uncles and cousins and, you know, like, it was just like maybe there were, like, 20 or 30 people in the house. And she would cook all this amazing food, and, um, us, the kids, we would, like, go down in the garden, and we would, like, pick all these mangoes, and, um... And I don't know, I think it's just the bringing people together, like, that always stuck with me, the warmth, the-

   3. LFLex Fridman1:47

      Around the mango tree?

   4. RKRana el Kaliouby1:48

      Yeah, around the mango tree, and there's just the, like, the, the, the joy, the joy of, of being together around food, and, and, um... I- I'm a terrible cook, so I guess that didn't (laughs) ... that, that memory didn't translate to me kind of doing the same. I love hosting people.

   5. LFLex Fridman2:03

      Do you remember colors, smells? Is that what... Like, what... How does memory work? (laughs)

   6. RKRana el Kaliouby2:08

      Yeah.

   7. LFLex Fridman2:09

      Like, what do you visualize? Do you visualize people's faces, smiles? Do... Is there colors? Is there, like, a, a theme to the colors? Is, is it smells because of food involved?

   8. RKRana el Kaliouby2:21

      Yeah, I think that's a great question. So the, those Egyptian mangoes, there's, there's a particular type that I love, and it's called Dawesi mangoes, and they're kind of, you know, they're oval, and they have a little red in them. So I kind of... They're red and mango colored on the outside. So I remember that.

   9. LFLex Fridman2:38

      Does red indicate, like, extra sweetness? Is that-

   10. RKRana el Kaliouby2:41

       Yes.

   11. LFLex Fridman2:41

       That means, like, it's nicely-

   12. RKRana el Kaliouby2:43

       It's, like, really sweet.

   13. LFLex Fridman2:44

       Yeah, it's nice and ripe and stuff. Yeah.

   14. RKRana el Kaliouby2:46

       Oh, yeah.

   15. LFLex Fridman2:47

       What, uh, what's, like, a definitive food of Egypt? You know, there's, like, these almost stereotypical foods in different parts of the world, like Ukraine invented borscht. Borscht is this beet soup with, that you put sour cream on... See, it's not-

   16. RKRana el Kaliouby3:03

       Okay.

   17. LFLex Fridman3:04

       I can't... See, if you-

   18. RKRana el Kaliouby3:04

       Okay, well, you explained it that way. (laughs)

   19. LFLex Fridman3:06

       If you, if you know, if you know what it is, I think you know it's delicious, but if I explain it, it's just not gonna sound delicious, I feel like. Beet soup? This doesn't make any sense. But that's kind of... And you probably have actually seen pictures of it 'cause it's one of the traditional foods in, uh, Ukraine, in Russia, in different parts of the Slavic, uh, world.

   20. RKRana el Kaliouby3:26

       Oh.

   21. LFLex Fridman3:26

       So this, but it's become so cliché and stereotypical that you almost don't mention it, but it's still delicious. Like, I, I visited Ukraine, it's, I ate that every single day, so...

   22. RKRana el Kaliouby3:35

       Do you, um, do you make it yourself?

   23. LFLex Fridman3:37

       No.

   24. RKRana el Kaliouby3:37

       How hard is it to make?

   25. LFLex Fridman3:38

       No.

   26. RKRana el Kaliouby3:38

       Okay.

   27. LFLex Fridman3:39

       I don't know. I think to make it well, like anything, like Italians, they say, "Well, uh, tomato, uh, sauce is easy to make, but to make it right..."

   28. RKRana el Kaliouby3:48

       Right.

   29. LFLex Fridman3:48

       That's, like, a generational, uh, skill, so... Anyway, is there something like that in Egypt? Is there a, a cultural food?

   30. RKRana el Kaliouby3:55

       There is, and actually, um, we have a similar kind of soup. It's called molokheya and it's, um, it's made of this green plant. It's like, it's somewhere between spinach and kale, and you mince it, and then you cook it in, like, chicken broth. And my grandma used to make, and my mom makes it really well, and I try to make it, but it's not as great. So we used to have that, and then we used to have it alongside stuffed pigeons. I'm pescatarian now, so I don't eat that anymore, but-
3. 10:37 – 13:20

   Hijab

   1. RKRana el Kaliouby10:37

   2. LFLex Fridman10:37

      Yeah, you wore the, the hijab, uh, s- so starting in 2000 and for 12 years after. Um, so it, always, whenever you're in public, you have to wear the head covering.

   3. RKRana el Kaliouby10:48

      Mm-hmm.

   4. LFLex Fridman10:48

      Uh, can you speak to that, to the hijab? Maybe your mixed feelings about it? Like, what does it represent in its best case, what does it represent in the worst case?

   5. RKRana el Kaliouby10:58

      Yeah. You know, I think there's a lot of... There's, I v- I guess I'll first start by saying I wore it voluntarily. I was not forced to wear it. And in fact, I was one of the very first women in my family to decide to put on the hijab. And my family thought it was really odd, right? Like there was-

   6. LFLex Fridman11:15

      Mm-hmm.

   7. RKRana el Kaliouby11:16

      ... they were like, "Why do you wanna put this on?" And, and, and at its best, it's, it's a sign of modesty, humility.

   8. LFLex Fridman11:22

      Yeah.

   9. RKRana el Kaliouby11:23

      Um...

   10. LFLex Fridman11:24

       It's like me wearing a suit, people are like, "Why are you wearing a suit?" It's to step back into some kind of tradition, a res- a respect for tradition is, of sorts.

   11. RKRana el Kaliouby11:33

       Right.

   12. LFLex Fridman11:33

       So you said because it's by choice, you're kinda free to make that choice-

   13. RKRana el Kaliouby11:37

       Right.

   14. LFLex Fridman11:37

       ... to celebrate a tradition of-

   15. RKRana el Kaliouby11:39

       e-

   16. LFLex Fridman11:39

       ... modesty.

   17. RKRana el Kaliouby11:40

       Exactly, and, and, and I actually, like, made it my own. I remember I would really match the color of my headscarf with what I was wearing. Like, uh, I, it was a form of self-expression, and I, and uh, at its best, I, I loved wearing it. You know, I've, have a lot of questions around how we practice religion, and religion, and you know, b- th- and, and I think, uh, I think also it was a time where I was spending a lot of time going back and forth between the US and Egypt, and I started meeting a lot of people in the US who are just amazing-

   18. LFLex Fridman12:10

       Mm-hmm.

   19. RKRana el Kaliouby12:10

       ... people, very, um, purpose-driven, a-... people who have very strong core values, but they're not Muslim. That's okay, right? And so that was when I just had a lot of questions. And politically, also, the situation in Egypt was when the Muslim Brotherhood ran the country, and I didn't agree with their ideology. Um, it was at a time when I was going through a divorce. Like, it was o- like, it was, like, just the perfect storm of-

   20. LFLex Fridman12:36

       Yeah.

   21. RKRana el Kaliouby12:36

       ... like, political, personal conditions, where I was like, "This doesn't feel like me anymore." And it took a lot of courage to take it off because, uh, culturally, it's not, it's okay if you don't wear it, but it's really not okay to wear it and then take it off.

   22. LFLex Fridman12:52

       But you're still... So you had to do that while still maintaining a deep core and pride in the origins, in your origin story.

   23. RKRana el Kaliouby13:02

       Totally.

   24. LFLex Fridman13:03

       So still being, uh, Egyptian, still being a Muslim.

   25. RKRana el Kaliouby13:06

       Right. And being, I think, generally, like, faith-driven?

   26. LFLex Fridman13:12

       Yeah.

   27. RKRana el Kaliouby13:12

       But, but, yeah.

   28. LFLex Fridman13:14

       But what that means changes-

   29. RKRana el Kaliouby13:16

       Correct.

   30. LFLex Fridman13:16

       ... year by year for you. It's like a personal journey.
4. 13:20 – 15:28

   Faith

   1. RKRana el Kaliouby13:20

   2. LFLex Fridman13:20

      Wh- what would you say is the role of faith in that part of the world? Like, how d- how do you see? You mention it a bit in the book too.

   3. RKRana el Kaliouby13:27

      Yeah. I mean, I think, I think there is something really powerful about just believing that there's a bigger force. Y- you know, there's a kind of surrendering, I guess, that comes with religion, and you surrender, and you have this deep conviction that it's gonna be okay. Right? Like, the universe is out-

   4. LFLex Fridman13:46

      Mm-hmm.

   5. RKRana el Kaliouby13:46

      ... to, like, do amazing things for you, and it's gonna be okay. And I... There's strength to that. Like, even when you're going through adversity, um, you just know that it's gonna work out.

   6. LFLex Fridman13:58

      Yeah. It gives you, like, an inner peace, a calmness.

   7. RKRana el Kaliouby14:00

      Exactly. Exactly.

   8. LFLex Fridman14:01

      Yeah. That's g- i- it's, it's faith in all the meanings of that word.

   9. RKRana el Kaliouby14:05

      Right.

   10. LFLex Fridman14:06

       Faith that everything is going to be okay. And it is, because time passes, and time c- cures all things.

   11. RKRana el Kaliouby14:13

       Right.

   12. LFLex Fridman14:13

       It's like a calmness-

   13. RKRana el Kaliouby14:14

       Right.

   14. LFLex Fridman14:14

       ... with the chaos of the world. Yeah.

   15. RKRana el Kaliouby14:16

       And also, there's like a silver li- I'm a true believer of this, that something at, at a specific moment in time can look like it's catastrophic and, "It's not what you wanted in life, da-da-da-da." But then time passes, and then you look back, and there's a silver lining, right? It maybe-

   16. LFLex Fridman14:33

       Yeah.

   17. RKRana el Kaliouby14:34

       ... closed the door, but it opened a new door for you. And so I'm a true believer in that, that, you know, there's a silver lining in, in almost anything in life. You just have to have this, like, have faith or conviction that it's gonna work out. So-

   18. LFLex Fridman14:48

       Yeah. Such a beautiful way to see a shitty feeling. So if you're-

   19. RKRana el Kaliouby14:51

       (laughs)

   20. LFLex Fridman14:51

       ... if you feel shitty about a current situation, I mean, it almost is always true, u- unless (laughs) ... It's a, the cliché s- thing of, um, if it doesn't kill you, whatever doesn't kill you makes you stronger.

   21. RKRana el Kaliouby15:05

       Mm-hmm.

   22. LFLex Fridman15:06

       It's... It does seem that over time, when you take a perspective on things, that the, the, the hardest a- moments and periods of your life are the most meaningful. Yeah. Yeah.

   23. RKRana el Kaliouby15:19

       Right.

   24. LFLex Fridman15:19

       So over time, you get to have that perspective.

   25. RKRana el Kaliouby15:21

       You get... Right.

   26. LFLex Fridman15:23

       Uh, what, what about... 'Cause you mentioned K- uh, Kuwait. Uh,

5. 15:28 – 19:37

   War

   1. LFLex Fridman15:28

      what about... Let me ask you about war. What's the role of war and peace-

   2. RKRana el Kaliouby15:34

      (sighs)

   3. LFLex Fridman15:34

      ... maybe even the big love and hate in that part of the world? Because it does seem to be a part of the world where there's turmoil, there was turmoil, there's still turmoil.

   4. RKRana el Kaliouby15:45

      It is so unfortunate, honestly. It's, it's such a waste of human resources and, and, and... Yeah. And human mindshare. I mean, and, and at, at the end of the day, we all kind of want the same things. We want... You know, we want human connection. We want joy. We wanna feel fulfilled. We wanna feel, you know, a life of purpose. And I, I just, I just find it baffling, honestly, that we are still having to grapple with that. Um, I have a story to share about this. You know, I grew up... But indeed, I'm Egyptian American now, but, but, you know, um, originally from Egypt. And when I first got to Cambridge, it turned out my office mate, like my PhD kind of, you know, she ended up... You know, we ended up becoming friends. But she was from Israel.

   5. LFLex Fridman16:33

      Hmm. Nice.

   6. RKRana el Kaliouby16:34

      And we didn't know, yeah, we didn't know how it was gonna be like. Um-

   7. LFLex Fridman16:39

      Did you guys sit there just staring at each other for a bit? (laughs)

   8. RKRana el Kaliouby16:42

      (laughs) For... Actually, she... 'Cause I arrived before she did, and it turns out-

   9. LFLex Fridman16:46

      (laughs)

   10. RKRana el Kaliouby16:47

       ... she emailed our PhD advisor and asked him if she thought it was gonna be okay.

   11. LFLex Fridman16:52

       Yeah.

   12. RKRana el Kaliouby16:53

       Um, and-

   13. LFLex Fridman16:53

       Oh, this is around 9/11 too.

   14. RKRana el Kaliouby16:55

       Yeah.

   15. LFLex Fridman16:55

       (laughs)

   16. RKRana el Kaliouby16:55

       And, and Peter, um, Peter Robinson, our PhD advisor, was like, "Yeah, like, this is an academic institution. Just show up." And we became super good friends. We were both, um, new moms. Like, we both had our kids during our PhD. We were both doing artificial emotional intelligence. She was looking at speech. I was looking at the face. We just had so... The culture was so similar.

   17. LFLex Fridman17:16

       Mm-hmm.

   18. RKRana el Kaliouby17:17

       Our jokes were similar. It was just... I was like, "Why on earth are our countries... Why is there all this, like, war and tension?" And, and I think it falls back to the narrative, right? If you change the narrative, like whoever creates this narrative of war... I don't know. We should have women run the world.

   19. LFLex Fridman17:34

       (laughs) Yeah.

   20. RKRana el Kaliouby17:35

       (laughs)

   21. LFLex Fridman17:35

       That's, that's one solution.

   22. RKRana el Kaliouby17:36

       (laughs)

   23. LFLex Fridman17:37

       Th- the good women, because there's also evil women in the world.

   24. RKRana el Kaliouby17:40

       True, true. Okay. (laughs)

   25. LFLex Fridman17:42

       Uh... (laughs)

   26. RKRana el Kaliouby17:43

       (laughs)

   27. LFLex Fridman17:43

       Um, but yes, yes, there could be less war if women ran the world. Uh, the other aspect is, um, it doesn't matter, the gender, the people in power... You know, I get to see this with, with Ukraine and Russia-

   28. RKRana el Kaliouby17:57

       Mm-hmm.

   29. LFLex Fridman17:57

       ... different, um, parts of the world around that conflict now. Uh, and that's happening in Yemen as well-

   30. RKRana el Kaliouby18:03

       Mm-hmm.
6. 19:37 – 23:55

   Women in the Middle East

   1. LFLex Fridman19:37

      let me ask you about the (laughs) women running, running the world.

   2. RKRana el Kaliouby19:41

      (laughs) Okay.

   3. LFLex Fridman19:42

      Uh, so gender does, in part, perhaps, shape the landscape of just our human experience. Um, so in what ways was it limiting and in what ways was it empowering for you to be a woman in the Middle East?

   4. RKRana el Kaliouby19:59

      I think just kind of just going back to, like, my comment on, like, women running the world, I think it co- comes back to empathy, right? Which-

   5. LFLex Fridman20:05

      Yeah.

   6. RKRana el Kaliouby20:05

      ... which has been a common thread throughout my, my entire career. And it's this, this idea of human connection. Um, once you build common ground with a person or a group of people, you build trust, you build loyalty, you build, um, friendship. And then, and then you can turn that into, like, behavior change and motivation and persuasion. So, so it's like empathy and emotions are just at the center of, of everything we do. And, and I, and I think being, being from the Middle East, kind of this human connection is, is very strong. Like, we have this running joke that if you come to Egypt for a visit, people are gonna be, we'll know everything about your life, like, right away, right?

   7. LFLex Fridman20:46

      Yeah.

   8. RKRana el Kaliouby20:46

      I have no problems asking you about your personal life.

   9. LFLex Fridman20:49

      Yeah.

   10. RKRana el Kaliouby20:49

       Um, there's no, like, no boundaries really, no personal boundaries in terms of getting to know people. We get emotionally intimate, like, very, very quickly. But I think people just get to know each other, like, authentically, I guess. Um, you know, there isn't this, like, superficial level of getting to know people. You just try to get to know people really deeply.

   11. LFLex Fridman21:09

       And empathy's a part of that.

   12. RKRana el Kaliouby21:10

       Totally, 'cause you can put yourself in this person's shoe and kind of, yeah, imagine, you know, what, what challenges they're going through. And, um, so I think I've, I've definitely taken that with me. Um, generosity is another one too. Like, just being generous with your time and love and attention, and even with your wealth, right? Even if you don't have a lot of it, you're still very generous, and I think that's another ...

   13. LFLex Fridman21:36

       Enjoying the humanity of other people. And so do you think there's a useful difference between men and women in that aspect, in empathy? Or is doing these kind of big, general groups, does that hinder progress?

   14. RKRana el Kaliouby21:57

       Yeah, I don't, I, I actually don't wanna over-generalize. I mean, I, some of the men I know are, like, the most empathetic humans I've ever ...

   15. LFLex Fridman22:03

       Yeah, I strive to be em- empathetic.

   16. RKRana el Kaliouby22:04

       Okay. Yeah, you're v- you're actually very empathetic.

   17. LFLex Fridman22:08

       (laughs)

   18. RKRana el Kaliouby22:08

       Um, yeah, so I, so I, so I don't wanna over-generalize. Um, although one of the researchers I worked with when I was at Cambridge, Professor Simon Baron-Cohen, he's, uh, Sacha Baron Cohen's cousin.

   19. LFLex Fridman22:22

       Yeah.

   20. RKRana el Kaliouby22:22

       (laughs)

   21. LFLex Fridman22:23

       (laughs)

   22. RKRana el Kaliouby22:23

       And he runs the Autism Research Center at Cambridge, and he's written multiple books, um, on autism. And one of his, one of his theories is the empathy scale, like the systemizers and the empathizers, and it, um, there's a disproportionate amount of computer scientists and engineers who are systemizers and perhaps not great empathizers. And then, you know, there's ... And there's more men in that bucket, I guess, than women. And then there's more women in the empathizers bucket. So again, not, not to over-generalize.

   23. LFLex Fridman22:58

       I sometimes wonder about that. It's- it's- it's- it's been frustrating to me how many, I guess, systemizers there are in the field of robotics.

   24. RKRana el Kaliouby23:05

       Yeah.

   25. LFLex Fridman23:06

       Uh, it's- it's actually encouraging to me 'cause I care about, obviously, social robotics. And because-

   26. RKRana el Kaliouby23:12

       Mm-hmm.

   27. LFLex Fridman23:13

       ... uh, it's, it, it, uh, there's more opportunity for people that are, um, em- empathic (laughs) .

   28. RKRana el Kaliouby23:18

       Exactly. I totally agree. Well, right? Like that's-

   29. LFLex Fridman23:21

       So it's nice.

   30. RKRana el Kaliouby23:21

       Yes.
7. 23:55 – 36:30

   Rana's journey

   1. LFLex Fridman23:55

      ... And this beautiful journey to Cambridge-

   2. RKRana el Kaliouby23:58

      Mm-hmm.

   3. LFLex Fridman23:58

      ... uh, to, you know, UK, and then to America, what, um, what's the moment or moments wh- that were most transformational for you as a scientist and as a leader? So you became an exceptionally successful CEO, founder, researcher, scientist, and so on. Um, was there a, a phase shift there where, like, "I can be somebody. I can, I can really do something in this world"?

   4. RKRana el Kaliouby24:26

      Yeah, so I actually just, kind of a little bit of background. So, the reason why I moved from Cairo to Cambridge, UK to do my PhD is because I had a very car- you know, clear career plan. I was like, "Okay, I'll go abroad."

   5. LFLex Fridman24:39

      Yeah.

   6. RKRana el Kaliouby24:40

      "Get my PhD. Gonna crush it in three or four years, come back to Egypt and teach." It was very clear. Very well laid out.

   7. LFLex Fridman24:47

      Was the topic clear or no? Did- did you ever-

   8. RKRana el Kaliouby24:49

      The topic, well, I- I did, I did my PhD around building artificial emotional intelligence and looking at-

   9. LFLex Fridman24:54

      No. But- but in your master plan ahead of time when you're sitting by the mango tree, did you, did you know it's gonna be-

   10. RKRana el Kaliouby24:59

       (laughs)

   11. LFLex Fridman24:59

       ... artificial intelligence or no?

   12. RKRana el Kaliouby25:01

       No. No, no, that I did not know. Although I think I kinda knew that I was gonna be doing computer science, but I didn't know the specific area. But I love teaching. I mean, I still love teaching. So, I just, yeah, I just wanted to go abroad, get a PhD, come back, teach.

   13. LFLex Fridman25:19

       Why computer science? Can we just linger on that? Why, 'cause you're such an empathic, uh, person who cares-

   14. RKRana el Kaliouby25:23

       Uh-huh.

   15. LFLex Fridman25:23

       ... about emotion, humans and so on. Isn't, aren't computers cold and emotionless and-

   16. RKRana el Kaliouby25:30

       (laughs)

   17. LFLex Fridman25:31

       ... just...

   18. RKRana el Kaliouby25:32

       We're changing that. Um, yeah.

   19. LFLex Fridman25:33

       Yeah, I know, but, like, isn't that the, or did you see computers as the, having the- the capability to actually, um, connect with humans?

   20. RKRana el Kaliouby25:43

       I think that was, like, my takeaway from my experience just growing up. Like, computers sit at the center of how we connect and communicate with one another, right? Or technology in general. Like, I remember my first experience being away from my parents. We communicated with a fax machine. But thank goodness for the fax machine because we could let, send letters back and forth to each other. This was pre-emails and stuff. Um, so I, so I think, I think there's, I think technology can be not just transformative in terms of productivity, et cetera, it actually does change how we connect with one another and, uh...

   21. LFLex Fridman26:15

       Can I just defend the fax machine?

   22. RKRana el Kaliouby26:17

       Yeah. (laughs)

   23. LFLex Fridman26:17

       There's something, um, like, the- the haptic feel, 'cause the email is all digital. There's something really nice, and I still write let- write letters to people. There's something nice about the haptic aspect of the fax machine 'cause you still have to press, you still have to do something in the physical world to make this thing a reality to- to send to somebody.

   24. RKRana el Kaliouby26:36

       Right, and then it, like, comes out as a printout and you can actually touch it-

   25. LFLex Fridman26:40

       Yeah.

   26. RKRana el Kaliouby26:40

       ... and read it. Yeah.

   27. LFLex Fridman26:40

       Yeah. There's something, there's something lost when it's just an email. Um, uh, obviously I wonder how we can regain some of that in the digital world, which goes to the metaverse and all those kinds of things. We'll talk about it. Anyway, so, uh...

   28. RKRana el Kaliouby26:56

       Mm-hmm. Actually, do you, a question on that one. Do you still, do you have photo albums anymore? Do you still print photos?

   29. LFLex Fridman27:03

       No. No, but I'm a minimalist.

   30. RKRana el Kaliouby27:06

       Okay.
8. 36:30 – 38:38

   Rosalind Picard

   1. LFLex Fridman36:30

      speaking of Ros, what have you learned about science and life from Rosalind Picard?

   2. RKRana el Kaliouby36:35

      Oh my God, I've learned so many things about life (laughs) from Ros. Um, I think the thing I learned the most is perseverance. Uh, when I first met Ros, we appl- and she invited me to be her postdoc, we applied for a grant to the National Science Foundation to apply some of our research to autism, and we got back a rej- we were rejected.

   3. LFLex Fridman37:01

      Rejected?

   4. RKRana el Kaliouby37:02

      Yeah. And the reasoning was-

   5. LFLex Fridman37:03

      The first time you were rejected for, for, for fund- yeah.

   6. RKRana el Kaliouby37:06

      Yeah. It was ... And I, and I basically, I just took the rejection to mean, "Okay, we're rejected. It's do- it's done, like end of story, right?" And Ros was like, "It's great news. They love the idea, they just, they just don't think we can do it. So, let's build it, show them, and then reapply." (laughs) And it was that, oh my God, that story totally stuck with me. Um, and, and she's like that in every aspect of her life. She just does not take no for an answer.

   7. LFLex Fridman37:32

      To reframe all negative feedback, uh-

   8. RKRana el Kaliouby37:35

      As a challenge. (laughs)

   9. LFLex Fridman37:36

      (laughs) As a challenge.

   10. RKRana el Kaliouby37:36

       As a challenge.

   11. LFLex Fridman37:38

       Yes, they like this.

   12. RKRana el Kaliouby37:40

       Yeah, yeah, yeah. It was, it was-

   13. LFLex Fridman37:41

       I love it.

   14. RKRana el Kaliouby37:41

       ... it was a riot. Yeah.

   15. LFLex Fridman37:43

       Uh, what else about science in general? About how you see computers, and, um, also business, and just every- ev- everything about the world. Sh- she's a very, uh, powerful, brilliant woman like yourself, so is there some aspect of that too?

   16. RKRana el Kaliouby37:57

       Yeah. I think Ros is actually also very faith-driven. She has this like deep belief and conviction, um, yeah, in, in, in the good in the world, in humanity. And, um, I think that was, meeting her and her family was definitely like a defining moment for me, because that was when I was like, "Wow, like you can be of a different background, and co- religion, and whatever, and you can still have the same core values."

   17. LFLex Fridman38:23

       Mm-hmm.

   18. RKRana el Kaliouby38:24

       So, that was, that was ... Yeah. I'm grateful to her, so-

   19. LFLex Fridman38:28

       (laughs)

   20. RKRana el Kaliouby38:28

       ... Ros, if you're listening, thank you. (laughs)

   21. LFLex Fridman38:30

       Yeah. She's great. She, she's been on this podcast before.

   22. RKRana el Kaliouby38:33

       Mm-hmm.

   23. LFLex Fridman38:33

       I, I'm, I'm, I hope she'll be on, I'm sure she'll be on again.

9. 38:38 – 49:09

   Advice for women

   1. LFLex Fridman38:39

      You are the founder and CEO of Affectiva, which is a big company that was acquired by another big company, Smart Eye.

   2. RKRana el Kaliouby38:47

      Mm-hmm.

   3. LFLex Fridman38:47

      And you're now the deputy CEO of Smart Eye, so you're a powerful leader, you're brilliant, you're a brilliant scientist.

   4. RKRana el Kaliouby38:53

      (laughs) Okay.

   5. LFLex Fridman38:53

      Uh, a lot of people are inspired by you. What advice would you give, especially to young women, but, uh, people in general who dream of becoming powerful leaders like yourself in a world where perhaps, um, in a world does, perhaps doesn't give them a clear, easy path to do so, whether we're talking about Egypt or elsewhere?

   6. RKRana el Kaliouby39:20

      You know, (laughs) hearing you kind of describe me that way, um, k- kind of encapsulates I think wha- what I think is the biggest challenge of all, which is believing in yourself, right? I have had to, like, grapple with this what I call now the Debbie Downer voice in my head.

   7. LFLex Fridman39:37

      Mm-hmm.

   8. RKRana el Kaliouby39:39

      That kind of basically is just chattering all the time, and it's basically saying, "Oh, no, no, no, no. You can't do this." Like-

   9. LFLex Fridman39:45

      Yeah.

   10. RKRana el Kaliouby39:45

       ... "You're not gonna raise money. You can't start a company. Like, what business do you have, like, starting a company, or running a company, or selling a company?" Like, you name it.

   11. LFLex Fridman39:52

       Yeah.

   12. RKRana el Kaliouby39:52

       It's always like ... And, and I think my biggest advice to, not just women, but people who have, who are taking a new path and, you know, they're not sure, is to not let yourself and let your thoughts be the biggest obstacle in your way. And I've had to, like, really work on myself to not be my own biggest obstacle.

   13. LFLex Fridman40:18

       So, you got that negative voice?

   14. RKRana el Kaliouby40:20

       Yeah.

   15. LFLex Fridman40:21

       Um, so is that-

   16. RKRana el Kaliouby40:22

       Am I the only one? I don't think I'm the only one.

   17. LFLex Fridman40:24

       No. I, I have that negative voice.

   18. RKRana el Kaliouby40:26

       Okay. (laughs)

   19. LFLex Fridman40:26

       I, I'm not exactly sure if it's a bad thing or a good thing. I've been really torn about it, because it's been a lifelong companion, so it's hard to know.

   20. RKRana el Kaliouby40:37

       Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

   21. LFLex Fridman40:38

       It, it's kind of, um ... It drives productivity and progress, but it can hold you back from taking big leaps. I think you, I, uh, the best I can say, is probably you have to somehow be able to control it, to turn it off when it's not useful, and turn it on when it's useful. Like, I have from almost like a third-person perspective.

   22. RKRana el Kaliouby41:03

       (laughs) Right. Somebody is sitting there, like-

   23. LFLex Fridman41:05

       Yeah.

   24. RKRana el Kaliouby41:05

       Yeah.

   25. LFLex Fridman41:05

       Like, because it is useful to, uh, to be cr- critical. Like, after, um, like I, I just gave a talk yesterday, uh, at MIT, and I was just, you know, there's so much love, and it was such a in- in- incredible experience, so many amazing people I got a chance to talk to.

   26. RKRana el Kaliouby41:25

       Mm-hmm.

   27. LFLex Fridman41:26

       But, you know, afterwards, when I, when I went home and just took this long walk, you know, it was mostly just negative thoughts about me- I don't ... Like, I, one basic stuff, like, I, uh, I don't deserve any of it, and second is, like, like, "Why did you ... That was so dumb. That you said this, that's so dumb. Like, y- g- you should've prepared that better. Why did you say this?" Da da da da da da da. But I think it's good to he- hear that voice out-

   28. RKRana el Kaliouby41:53

       Mm-hmm.

   29. LFLex Fridman41:54

       All right? And, like, sit in that, and ultimately, I think you grow from that. Now, when you're making really big decisions about funding or starting a company or taking a leap to go to the UK or take a leap to go to America to, to work at Media Lab, though, yeah, there's a ... That's, uh ... You should be able to shut that off then, because, uh, you should have, like, this weird confidence, almost like faith that you said before, that everything's gonna work out. So, take the leap of faith.

   30. RKRana el Kaliouby42:28

       Yeah. Take the leap of faith.
10. 49:09 – 56:45

    Dating

    1. LFLex Fridman49:09

    2. RKRana el Kaliouby49:09

       (laughs)

    3. LFLex Fridman49:10

       Um, let me ask you about dating in general. Um, you tweeted, "Are you based in Boston and single?" And then you pointed to an, uh, a startup-

    4. RKRana el Kaliouby49:21

       Mm-hmm.

    5. LFLex Fridman49:21

       ... singles night sponsored by Smile dating app. C- I mean, this is jumping around a little bit-

    6. RKRana el Kaliouby49:26

       Mm-hmm.

    7. LFLex Fridman49:27

       ... but sy- since you mentioned. Um, can AI help solve this, uh, dating love problem? What do you think? This problem of connection that is part of the human condition, can AI help that? You yourself are in the search affirming. (laughs)

    8. RKRana el Kaliouby49:45

       (laughs) Right. Maybe that's what I should a- affirm, like build an AI, so-

    9. LFLex Fridman49:48

       Build an AI that finds love?

    10. RKRana el Kaliouby49:49

        (sighs) I think- I think there must be a science behind that first moment you meet a person and you either have chemistry or you don't, right? Like, you click-

    11. LFLex Fridman50:03

        I guess that was the question I was asking, which you put it brilliantly. Is that a science or an art?

    12. RKRana el Kaliouby50:08

        Ooh. I think there are like- there's actual chemicals that get exchanged when pe-

    13. LFLex Fridman50:14

        Mm-hmm.

    14. RKRana el Kaliouby50:14

        ... two people meet. Oh, well, I don't know about that.

    15. LFLex Fridman50:17

        (laughs)

    16. RKRana el Kaliouby50:17

        But- but okay, right. ...

    17. LFLex Fridman50:18

        I like how you're changing-

    18. RKRana el Kaliouby50:19

        ... going down the wrong path.

    19. LFLex Fridman50:19

        Yeah, yeah. Changing your mind-

    20. RKRana el Kaliouby50:20

        (laughs)

    21. LFLex Fridman50:20

        ... as we're describing it. But it feels that way.

    22. RKRana el Kaliouby50:23

        Right.

    23. LFLex Fridman50:24

        But it's- what science shows us is sometimes we can explain with rigor the things that feel like magic.

    24. RKRana el Kaliouby50:30

        Right.

    25. LFLex Fridman50:32

        So, maybe we can remove all the magic. Maybe it's like- I- I honestly think, like I- I said, like Goodreads should be a dating app. Which, like-

    26. RKRana el Kaliouby50:40

        Hmm.

    27. LFLex Fridman50:41

        ... books, I- I wonder-

    28. RKRana el Kaliouby50:43

        Yeah.

    29. LFLex Fridman50:43

        I wonder if you look at just, like, books or content you've consumed, I mean, that's essentially what YouTube does when it does recommen- a recommendation. If you just look at your footprint of content consumed, if there's an o- overlap, but maybe interesting difference-

    30. RKRana el Kaliouby50:57

        Mm-hmm.
11. 56:45 – 1:01:25

    Human nature

    1. LFLex Fridman56:45

       which you opened the book with, um-

    2. RKRana el Kaliouby56:48

       Yeah.

    3. LFLex Fridman56:48

       ... a story ... Because I'd like to talk to you about just emotion and artificial intelligence. And I think this is a good story to start to think about emotional intelligence. Uh, you opened the book with a story of a Central Florida man, uh, Jamel Dunn, who was drowning and drowned while five teenagers watched and laughed, saying things like, "You're gonna die." And when Jamel disappeared below the surface of the water, one of them said, "He just died," and the others laughed. What does this incident, uh, teach you about human nature? And the response to it, perhaps?

    4. RKRana el Kaliouby57:24

       Yeah. I mean, I think this is a really, really, really sad story. And it, and it, and it highlights what I believe is a ... It's a real problem in our world today, it's, it's an empathy cri- ... It's ... Yeah, we, we're living through an empathy crisis and-

    5. LFLex Fridman57:40

       Empathy crisis, yeah.

    6. RKRana el Kaliouby57:41

       Yeah, and, and I mean, we've, we've talked about this throughout our conversation, we dehumanize each other. And unfortunately, yes, technology is bringing us together, but in a way it's just dehumanize ... It's creating this, like, yeah, dehumanizing of the other, and I think that's a, a huge problem. The good news is, I think solution, the solution could be technology based. Like, I think if we rethink the way we design and deploy our technologies, we can solve parts of this problem. But I worry about it. I mean, even with my son. Like, a lot of his interactions are computer mediated, and I just question what that's doing to his empathy skills and, you know, his ability to really connect with people, so.

    7. LFLex Fridman58:29

       D- you think, um ... You think it's not possible to form empathy through d- digital medium?

    8. RKRana el Kaliouby58:38

       I think it is, but we have to be thoughtful about ... 'Cause the way, the way we engage face-to-face, which is what we're doing right now, right? There's the, the non-verbal signals which are a majority of how we communicate, it's like 90% of how we communicate is your facial expressions, you know, I'm saying something and you're nodding your head now and that creates a feedback loop and, and if you break that-

    9. LFLex Fridman59:02

       And now I have anxiety about it.

    10. RKRana el Kaliouby59:04

        No de- ... Right (laughs) .

    11. LFLex Fridman59:06

        (laughs) .

    12. RKRana el Kaliouby59:06

        Poor Lex (laughs) .

    13. LFLex Fridman59:08

        Oh boy, it's a cycle.

    14. RKRana el Kaliouby59:08

        I am not scrutinizing your facial expressions during this interview, okay (laughs) ?

    15. LFLex Fridman59:13

        Yeah, I am, I am.

    16. RKRana el Kaliouby59:14

        (laughs) .

    17. LFLex Fridman59:14

        Look normal, look human.

    18. RKRana el Kaliouby59:15

        Yeah (laughs) . Um...

    19. LFLex Fridman59:17

        Nod head.

    20. RKRana el Kaliouby59:18

        Yeah, nod head, right (laughs) .

    21. LFLex Fridman59:21

        (laughs) . In agreement.

    22. RKRana el Kaliouby59:21

        If Rana says yes-

    23. LFLex Fridman59:23

        Yeah (laughs) , yeah.

    24. RKRana el Kaliouby59:23

        ... then nod head, else... (laughs) Yeah.

    25. LFLex Fridman59:25

        Don't do it too much because it might be at the wrong time and then it will send the wrong signal.

    26. RKRana el Kaliouby59:31

        Oh, God.

    27. LFLex Fridman59:31

        And, uh, make eye contact sometimes 'cause humans appreciate that. All right, anyway.

    28. RKRana el Kaliouby59:36

        Okay (laughs) .

    29. LFLex Fridman59:38

        Uh, yeah, but something about, uh-

    30. RKRana el Kaliouby59:40

        Yeah.
12. 1:01:25 – 1:32:03

    AI and emotions

    1. RKRana el Kaliouby1:01:25

    2. LFLex Fridman1:01:25

       On a more kind of technical, maybe philosophical level, you've written that, uh, emotion is universal. It seems that sort of like Chomsky says language is universal. There's a bunch of other stuff like cognition, consciousness. It seems a lot of us have these aspects, so the human mind generates all this. And so what do you think is the... They all seem to be like echoes of the same thing. Uh, w- what do you think emotion is exactly? Like, how deep does it run? Is it a surface l- level thing that we display to each other? Is it just another form of language or something deep within?

    3. RKRana el Kaliouby1:02:06

       I think it's, it's really deep. It's how... You know, we started with memory. I think emotions play a really important r- Yeah, emotions play a very important role in how we encode memories, right? Our, our memories are often encoded, almost indexed by emotions.

    4. LFLex Fridman1:02:22

       Yeah.

    5. RKRana el Kaliouby1:02:23

       Um, yeah. It, it, it's at the s- core of how, uh, you know, our decision-making engine is also heavily influenced by our emotions.

    6. LFLex Fridman1:02:32

       So emotions is part of cognition. It's, it's-

    7. RKRana el Kaliouby1:02:35

       Totally.

    8. LFLex Fridman1:02:35

       It intermix into the whole thing.

    9. RKRana el Kaliouby1:02:37

       Yes, absolutely. And in fact, when you take it away, people are unable to make decisions. They're really paralyzed. Like, they can't go about their daily or their, you know, personal or professional lives. So, um...

    10. LFLex Fridman1:02:50

        It, it does seem like there's probably some interesting interweaving of emotion and consciousness. I wonder if it's possible to have... Like, if they're next-door neighbors somehow or if they're actually, uh, flatmates. I don't, I, I don't... It, it feels like the, the hard problem of consciousness where it's some... It feels like something to experience the thing. Like, red feels like red and it's... You know, when you eat a mango, it's sweet. The taste, the, the, the, the sweetness that it feels like something to experience that sweetness, that whatever generates emotions. But then, like, see, I feel like emotion is part of communication. Ve- it's very much about communication, and then that means it's also deeply connected to language. But then probably human intelligence is deeply connected to the collective intelligence between humans. It's not just a standalone thing.

    11. RKRana el Kaliouby1:03:54

        Mm-hmm.

    12. LFLex Fridman1:03:54

        So the whole thing is really connected. So emotion is connected to language, language is connected to intelligence, and then intelligence is connected to consciousness, and consciousness is collec- connected to emotion. The whole thing is a, is a, is a beautiful mess. So, um, um-

    13. RKRana el Kaliouby1:04:12

        Can I comment on the emotions being a communication mech- 'Cause I think em- there are two facets of, of, of our emotional experiences. Um, one is communication, right? Like, we use emotions, for example, facial expressions or other nonverbal cues, to connect with other human beings and with other beings in the world, right? Um, but even if it's not a communication context, we still experience emotions, and we still process emotions, and we still leverage emotions to make decisions and to learn and, you know, to experience life. So it isn't always just about communication, and we learned that very early on in, in our, in kind of our work at Affectiva. One of the very first applications we brought to market was understanding how people respond to content, right?

    14. LFLex Fridman1:05:03

        Mm-hmm.

    15. RKRana el Kaliouby1:05:03

        So if they're watching this video of ours, like, are they interested? Are they inspired? Are they bored to death?

    16. LFLex Fridman1:05:08

        Mm-hmm.

    17. RKRana el Kaliouby1:05:09

        And so we watch their facial expressions. And we had... We weren't sure if people would express any emotions if they were sitting alone. Like, if you're in your bed at night watching a Netflix TV series, would we still see any emotions on your face? And we were surprised that, yes, people still emote, even if they're alone. Even if you're in your car driving around, you're singing along a song, and you're joyful, we'll see these expressions. So it's not just about communicating with another person. It sometimes really is just about experiencing the world and...

    18. LFLex Fridman1:05:41

        First of all, I wonder if some of that is because we develop our intelligence and our emotional intelligence by communicating with other humans. And so when other humans disappear from the picture, we're still kind of a virtual human.

    19. RKRana el Kaliouby1:05:56

        The code still runs basically. (laughs)

    20. LFLex Fridman1:05:57

        Yeah, the code still runs and... But you also kinda...

    21. RKRana el Kaliouby1:06:00

        Yeah.

    22. LFLex Fridman1:06:00

        You're still... There's, like, virtual humans. You don't have to think of it that way, but there's a kinda... When you, like, chuckle, like (laughs) yeah.

    23. RKRana el Kaliouby1:06:09

        Mm-hmm.

    24. LFLex Fridman1:06:10

        Like, you're, you're kinda chuckling to a virtual human. I mean, the... It's possible that the c- the code is d- has to have another human, uh, there, because if you just grow up alone, I wonder if emotion would still be there in its visual form. So I... Yeah, I, I wonder. But anyway, the, uh... What can you tell from the human face about what's going on inside? So that's the problem that Affectiva-

    25. RKRana el Kaliouby1:06:40

        Mm-hmm.

    26. LFLex Fridman1:06:40

        ... first tackled, which is using computer vision, using machine learning to try to detect stuff about the human face, as many things as possible, and convert them into a prediction of categories of emotion. Anger, happiness, all that kinda stuff. How hard is that problem?

    27. RKRana el Kaliouby1:07:00

        Extremely hard. It's very, very hard because there is no one-to-one mapping between, um-... a facial expression and your internal state. There just isn't. There's this oversimplification of the problem, where it's something like, "If you are smiling, then you are happy. If you do a brow furrow, then you're angry. If you do an eyebrow raise, then you're surprised." And just think about it for a moment, you could be smiling for a whole host of reasons. You could also be happy and not be smiling, right? Um, you could furrow your eyebrows because you're angry or you're confused about something or you're constipated.

    28. LFLex Fridman1:07:35

        Yeah.

    29. RKRana el Kaliouby1:07:36

        Um, so I think this over-simplistic approach to inferring emotion from a facial expression is really dangerous. Um, the solution is to incorporate as many contextual signals as you can, right? So if, for example, I'm driving a car and you can see me, like, nodding my head and my eyes are closed and the blinking rate is changing, I'm probably falling asleep on the, at the wheel, right? It doesn't... Y- because you know the context. You understand what the person's doing. So I think... Or, or add additional channels, like voice or gestures or even physiological sensors. Um, but I think it's very dangerous to just take this over-simplistic approach of, yeah, smile equals happy, and...

    30. LFLex Fridman1:08:21

        If you're able to, in a high resolution way, specify the context, there's certain things that are gonna be somewhat reliable signals of something like drowsiness or happiness or stuff like that. I mean, when, when people are watching Netflix content-

Episode duration: 2:36:21