Randall Kennedy: The N-Word - History of Race, Law, Politics, and Power | Lex Fridman Podcast #379

Randall Kennedy 0:00 Let's imagine you have a Black rapper who invites people on stage, and let's suppose they invite a Black person on stage, and they're perfectly happy when the Black person is full out with, you know, their lyrics. They invite a white person on stage. The white person is still, you know... D- doesn't really, you know, sort of mystified but, b- comes on stage and full out with what the rapper says, including the infamous N-word, and then the Black rapper gets mad. Imagine the white comedian who satirizes that, pokes fun at that, and in poking fun at that, says the infamous N-word. Am I angry? No, I'm not angry. Not angry at all.

Lex Fridman 0:50 The following is a conversation with Randall Kennedy, professor at Harvard Law School and author of many seminal books on race, law, history, culture, and politics, including specifically on affirmative action, criminal justice, policing, and the topic explored extensively in this conversation, the single most powerful word and slur in the English language, the N-word, with a hard R at the end. Randall has written a book with this word as the title, N-word: The Strange Career of a Troublesome Word. Please be warned that Randall uses this word throughout this conversation, deliberately and skillfully to discuss its power and its role in the history of the United States. I don't intend to shy away from controversial topics like these, and I'll work hard to handle them thoughtfully and thoroughly, with respect and with empathy, often with several guests who have very different perspectives on the topic. In the end, I believe in the power of long-form conversations to heal divides by furthering understanding of human nature, of human history, and the full diversity of the human experience. This is a Lex Friedman podcast. To support it, please check out our sponsors in the description. And now, dear friends, here's Randall Kennedy.

Lex Fridman 2:13 You wrote a book whose title is the N-word, spelled out with a hard R at the end. So let's start with the history of this word. What is the history of the N-word?

Randall Kennedy 2:23 The word you're referring to is "nigger." The book that you're referring to is Nigger: The Strange Career of a Troublesome Word. The word dates back to the 16th, 17th century. It's got a long lineage, in other words. Basically Latin, basically Spanish, basically N-I-G, you know, Black, in various formulations. We don't know actually how the term nigger became a slur. So there were words that were close to N-I-G-G-E-R that were used in various ways, for instance, N-I-G-G, uh, U-H has been, was used. Uh, N-I-G-G-U-R was used. And sometimes it was used in a way that seemed to be just purely descriptive. We do know that by the early 19th century, it had become, uh, a slur. It had become a derogatory word about which people complained. But exactly how that came about, not altogether clear.

Lex Fridman 3:40 So it's been 20 years since you've written a book. What have you, uh, what wisdom have you gained about this word since writing the book? It may be having to interact with people, having to read, having to see, having to feel the response to the book.

Randall Kennedy 3:55 This book has generated a lot of controversy. I, I, I thought it would. It's probably generated more controversy than I had anticipated. It has certainly generated more, uh, more different sorts of experiences than I had anticipated. So for instance, I did not think that writing this book would prompt people to ask me to be an expert witness in cases. And over the past 20 years, I've been an expert witness in a number of different cases. I've been an expert witness in case in, in a murder case, uh, in various cases of, uh, of assault. I've been an expert witness in cases involving, um, uh, tort cases, intentional infliction of emotional distress. I've been an expert witness in a number of employment cases. Um, I, I, I had not, uh, anticipated that, nor had I anticipated the extent to which people would get in trouble for using my book. Every year, uh, there are teachers who are suspended or who are fired, uh, because they will excerpt a chapter of my brook- book. Let's, uh, let's imagine a, and this is not... I'm not imagining things as this happened, a, a, a teacher is teaching, for instance, um, the, uh, Mark Twain's Huckleberry Finn. The word "nigger" appears in that book over 200 times. The teacher, trying to be earnest, trying to be sensible, trying to be serious, will excerpt a part of my book, uh, to, uh, acquaint students with the history of the word, and maybe the history of controversy involving, uh, the use of the word in this particular novel. The stu- you know, the teacher will give it out, hand it out to the teachers, uh, hand it out to, uh, students, and there have been a number of teachers who've been suspended or worse because of that, uh, teach- uh, uh...... uh, students will get upset, go home, tell their parents. Their parents will storm to the school and say that this is, you know, this is terrible. Uh, the teacher is, quote, "Using the word nigger, uh, in an offensive way." And, uh, oftentimes administrators will basically abandon, uh, the- the- the teacher. And this- when- whenever this comes to my attention, um, I write. I- I will write the, you know, superintendent of schools or I'll write the principal or sometimes I'll, you know, I'll write a- uh, an opinion editorial piece for the local newspaper. But every year there are teachers who are, uh, disciplined, uh, for using my book. Uh, I had not- I had not anticipated that.

Lex Fridman 7:01 And what is the nature of the letter or the- or the op-ed that you write on why they shouldn't be disciplined or if they- do they- to the degree they should be or shouldn't be?

Randall Kennedy 7:12 There's- there's not been one case, there's not been one case, uh, that has come to my attention in which it was even remotely sensible for the teacher to be disciplined. And what I say is that number one, frankly I go through... I- it's- the- what I write is almost a- a synopsis of my book. Number one, this is an important word in American history. It is a word that is explosive, that's why people get so upset. It's a word that's volatile. It's a word that, uh, has typically- has typically been used in a terrible way. It's a word that is part of the soundtrack of, uh, racial terrorism in the United States. So people ought to know about this word. I mean, if you're interested in, uh, knowing the real history of the United States, if you're interested in knowing about lynching, if you're interested in knowing about the way in which, uh, Black people have been terrorized in the United States, you need to know this word. You need to know that history so you need to know why it is that people are upset about the word. But that's not- but it doesn't end there. You have to know that. And if you know that, then, uh, that knowledge should equip you to be careful. It should equip you to know that... You know, to know- to know the- the- the range of context in which this word appears. But again, it doesn't just end there because... Especially young people. You tell that to young people and they nod, they read, they understand that. But then- but then what? But then they turn on their radios and they turn on, you know, they listen to Spotify, they listen to their- some of their favorite, uh, entertainers. They listen to Dr. Dre, they listen to the Geto Boys, they listen to, you know, Snoop, uh, and they listen to NWA. What do they hear? They- they- they- they- they listen to standup comedians. They listen to, uh, Dave Chappelle. They listen to Katt Williams. Uh, they, you know... What do they hear? They hear the word nigger or nigga being used in a lot of different ways, and so they need to know about that as well. What are people doing? What do... How does one explain the fact that Dick Gregory... Dick Gregory was a comedian, activist, friend of Martin Luther King Jr., a true activist. I mean, he had a very- he had a flourishing career as an entertainer that he abandons in order to struggle for racial justice throughout the United States and including the Deep South. How does one explain the fact that the- he- he wrote several memoirs but his first memoir is called Nigger, a Memoir. How does one explain that? How does one explain the way in which... How does one explain Richard Pryor? I mean, Richard Pryor's best album is That Nigger's Crazy. Well, was Richard Pryor trying to put down Black people? How does one explain that? One can only explain that by getting deeper into the word, by understanding that yes, this is a word that has been used in a derogatory way, this has been- this is a word that has been used to put people down, this has been- this is a word that has been used to terrorize people. You gotta know that. But you also have to know that this is a word that has also been put to other uses. Uh, there are artists, there are entertainers who have used this word, like Dick- Dick Gregory used it, to put up a mirror to American society and say, "Look at this word and look at the terrible way in which it's been used. We don't want you to look away. No, don't look away. We're not... No- no euphemism. No asterisks. No- no N-word. No, nigger. Now, we want you to look at that and we wanna talk about that." James Baldwin. James Bald... There was a- there was a documentary about James Baldwin couple years ago, highly lauded documentary. The title that was given to this documentary was, I Am Not Your Negro. That's not what James Baldwin said. Anybody can took... Go to YouTube right now-...take a look. James Baldwin said, "I am not your nigger." And then he went on to talk about that. Well, you know, James Baldwin wasn't, again, he, he wasn't starting to cover up anything. He wanted people to face the facts of American life. And it seems to me that if you're a teacher and you want to have your students face the facts about American life, well, you've got to grapple with the word nigger. Now, let me just quickly say, you know, teachers have a tough job. And, um, if we're talking about students, of course there's a wide range of students. Am I saying that one ought to give my book to kindergartners? No. You know, kindergartners are probably not ready for such a book. Uh, third graders? Probably no, not third grade. If we're talking, however, about people in the tenth grade, do I think the tenth graders can read my book? Yeah, sure, absolutely. Eleventh graders, twelfth graders, people in college. There are people in college. There are people in college. There are people in law schools. Teachers in law schools have been disciplined for, uh, because the word nigger has come out of a teacher's mouth. Why? In, in a couple of cases recently, a teacher would be reading a, uh, a court opinion. The word appears in the court opinion, the teacher pronounces the word, "Ah." You know, students get up, leave in a huff, report the teacher. There are some instances in which teachers have been, under those circumstances, have been disciplined. In my view, that's bad and people ought to say, "It's bad." It's bad pedagogically, uh, and, um, uh, frankly, in many of these instances, it's not only bad, it's stupid. And I don't mind saying that. I think that some of these instances in which teachers have been disciplined, absolutely stupid. People say, "Well, the teacher used the word." Excuse me, used the word? It'd be one thing, it'd be one thing if a teacher looked at a student and called the student, "Nigger." You know, "Get out of here, nigger." That'd be one, that'd be, you know, fine. Discipline, that's teacher, that's, that's bad. But that's not what's going on. You don't have, this, these... None of these are cases in which you have an individual who is a stranger to another individual, and this word just sort of comes out, no. What we have here is a class involving a person who is a teacher interacting with students, talking about subjects in which it would be perfectly understandable why this word would emerge as a subject of conversation. Now, under those circumstances, it's somehow wrong for a teacher to u- to, to utter this word? In my view, the answer is no. And, you know, um, I said that 20 years ago. I say, I say it even more emphatically now.

Lex Fridman 15:45 Still, it is one of the most powerful words in the English language.

Randall Kennedy 15:49 Mm-hmm.

Lex Fridman 15:50 And, uh, there's a kind of responsibility that we as humans should have with words.

Randall Kennedy 15:56 Yes.

Lex Fridman 15:57 Wi- with statements. That word, if not used skillfully, if not used competently, even when just read from a legal transcript, can do more d- more harm than good.

Randall Kennedy 16:10 Uh, I agree with what you say. Yes, words are powerful. Words do matter. And so I am certainly not suggesting that people be lax. I'm not suggesting that people, um, be irresponsible. Um, it's precisely because words matter, however, that we need to be willing to face words and grapple with words, and talk about words, and talk about the history of words, precisely because words matter. And, um, uh, among other things, it seems to me, it's important to understand that words can mean different things in different contexts. It's not the case that a word means the same thing in every context. The word discriminating. Sometimes it's a very bad thing, "That person discriminates." And when you've, you know, again, you know, intonation of voice means something. If I say, "Oh, that person discriminates," and I'm obviously being disapproving, implicitly what I'm saying is, "That person, um, distinguishes between things on an unjustifiable basis," and that's a bad thing. On the other hand, "That person has discriminating taste." Oh, that means something very different. That means that the person differentiates, uh, in a way that shows that they understand the difference between excellent, good, and not so good. And we think that that's a good thing. So words can have different, you know, words can mean different things in different contexts, and it seems to me that that's something that actually we ought to recognize, we ought to recognize and talk about.

Lex Fridman 18:19 Well, some words enter this territory of being a slur, and it seems like when they cross the line into being a slur-... the, there's, uh, the number of contexts in which it's okay to mention it, uh, exponentially decreases, right?

Randall Kennedy 18:39 Uh, no, no.

Lex Fridman 18:40 Or no?

Randall Kennedy 18:40 I'm gonna, no, I'm gonna resist that a little bit, because the whole idea of, you know, slurs. Slurs change. Yankee was a slur. Yankee was a slur in, uh, you know, 18th Century United States.

Lex Fridman 18:58 Mm-hmm.

Randall Kennedy 19:00 Uh, slur today, you know, New York Yankees, "I'm a Yankee fan." "I'm a Yankee." Um, queer. Queer. Uh, and, you know, you know, and then this is in, in, in, in my lifetime. There was a time, you know, that, "You queer." And people would really run away from it, and that was, you know, a bad thing. And then thank goodness, uh, gay liberation movement. Gay liberation movement basically, "We're not gonna run away from this. We're gonna grab this," quote, "slur and we're going to affix it to ourselves, and we are going to repurpose it." Now, the word queer is again, you know, can it be a slur? Yeah, it can be a slur. Doesn't have to be. And it seems to me that it's important for people to know about how a word, a symbol, in some context can be a slur, in some context doesn't have to be. So the whole idea of, you know, what's a slur? Uh, that could, that's a, that's a complicated idea in and of itself.

Lex Fridman 20:18 It's very complicated. It's, uh, if I may say, almost fascinating how language evolves.

Randall Kennedy 20:24 Mm-hmm.

Lex Fridman 20:24 But if we were to kind of have a minute by minute evaluation of the most powerful, intensely slur-like words in the world, I think the N-word, with a hard R at the end, which is the title of your book, is number one on that list.

Randall Kennedy 20:45 Well, uh, probably so. And of course, that's one of the reasons why I wrote a little book about it.

Lex Fridman 20:50 Yeah, but it hasn't... Even since you wrote a little book about it, (laughs) it seems like it's maintained its number one status. You mentioned queer.

Randall Kennedy 20:58 Mm-hmm.

Lex Fridman 20:58 Uh, it, uh, maybe queer was in the top 20, I don't know, for a while, and now it's sliding into the, uh, top, uh, thousand. And N, the N-word is at the top.

Randall Kennedy 21:11 You're absolutely right. The origins of this, uh, book, I, I clearly remember. I was, I was at my office, and I was thinking about lecture topics. And I get invited to give lectures from time to time. And I was thinking, "Well, you know, what, what, what might make for an interesting lecture?" And all of a sudden, the word nigger popped into my mind. Now, this is a word, I've, I've grown up with this word. I mean, there's, there's, there's never been a time in my life when, um, at least in my conscious life, the, in which I've, in which this word's been absent. I mean, in, in my household, for instance. In my household, my parents are Black people. Uh, my parents were refugees from the Jim Crow South. I was born in the Deep South, South Carolina. In my household, I heard the word nigger used in every possible way. I heard it used as a slur. I also heard it used, uh, with respect to people who were praised. You know, my father, I clearly remember my father, whom I revere. Um, uh, "That's the smartest nigga in the world." "That's the bravest nigga in the world." "That's the baddest nigga I know." It was, he- he wasn't putting people down, this is the way he talked. And I grew up hearing this word in various ways. And so I was thinking to myself, "God, where did this word come from?" And one of the first things I did, I clearly remember just jumping up outta my seat, running up to the library, Oxford English Dictionary. When did this word first appear in English? What was the history of the word? And then what really sort of grabbed my attention is, um, I went to, I- I- I- I get my computer going, and I asked the computer system, um, give me every case, every federal court case in which this word appears. Thousands of cases. And then I said, "Oh, my goodness, this is real..." And then, you know, "This is really interesting." And then I started just cataloguing all the, uh, different cases. There came a point, I'd say, uh, probably about a month into this, I compared the usage, or I compared the number of times that nigger came up with other sorts of slurs. So for instance, kike, K-I-K-E, long time, you know, you know, uh, derogatory word for Jews. How many times does this word come up? There was a time in where, when, in which the word appeared, but nothing like the infamous N-word. Nothing. And then I, you know, what about wetback? What about... And then I just, you know, l- let me, let me just take a look at all the other slurs. Nothing came close, not even remotely close to nigger. And I think it has something to do with, um, I think it has something to do with the uniqueness......of the color line, particularly as it pertains to African Americans. I think that the, the fact that nigger, uh, sort of occupies such a unique status among slurs, I think that's a reflection of the unique stigma that has been imposed on, uh, African Americans.

Lex Fridman 25:04 It's hard to know, uh, the chicken or the egg. Why one word is able to so distinctly and clearly encapsulate this struggle between races that is, uh, throughout American history. I mean, they didn't have to probably be so, but it came that, to be that way.

Randall Kennedy 25:25 It became that, and n- not only that, not only that, but of course, th- nigger spurred other slurs. So Arabs, sand niggers. Um, the Irish, the niggers of Europe. Um, women, the niggers of the world. I mean-

Lex Fridman 25:46 John Lennon even has a song.

Randall Kennedy 25:48 That's right. Well, I think Yoko Ono, I think had something to do with that song. So, I mean, it is a slur that has spawned other slurs. And again, this is... That's why, you know, as you indicated a moment ago, this is a quite unique term.

Lex Fridman 26:10 But are you conscious? Are you deliberate in your saying of this word? So let me just say from personal experience, maybe my upbringing, where I came from, in my daily life, I don't think I've ever heard that word with a hard R said as often. You clearly, in my life said... I've heard it today more than I have ever heard it in my entire life. And, uh, I think there's a, a few people who listen to this, that will be listening to this and be very uncomfortable.

Randall Kennedy 26:45 Mm-hmm.

Lex Fridman 26:45 I would say not in a bad way, probably in a good way. Uh, I'm uncomfortable now, and I am almost introspecting and trying to figure out why am I- I'm uncomfortable. And, uh, I think even the title of your book is making me think that.

Randall Kennedy 27:02 Mm-hmm.

Lex Fridman 27:02 Just, just looking into my own mind and trying to understand, wow, words have power. And why does it have so much power? But are you deliberate in that action? And by the way, not only are the people listening to this sweating, this will be on YouTube-

Randall Kennedy 27:16 Mm-hmm.

Lex Fridman 27:16 ...in part. (laughs) And YouTube, the people on the other side will be sweating. What do we do with this?

Randall Kennedy 27:24 Yeah. Well, am I deliberate? Y- y- y- y- yes, the answer is yes. And let me, let me unpack that a little bit. First, that's right, I mean, uh, am I deliberate? Yeah.

Lex Fridman 27:39 What is that?

Randall Kennedy 27:39 I deliberately, I deliberately wrote a book-

Lex Fridman 27:43 (laughs)

Randall Kennedy 27:43 ...called Nigger: The Strange Career of a Troublesome Word. And, you know, was that deliberate? Yeah, that was quite deliberate.

Lex Fridman 27:50 But the title could have been N-word, versus-

Randall Kennedy 27:52 The title could have been, the title could have been N-word, sure. The title could have been N-word. The title could have been A Book About a Word That Causes Pain to Many People. You, I could have named it that. Uh, there are many, there are many titles I could have used. Um, did I want a title that would be provocative? Did I want a title that would grab people? The answer to that is, yes. What do... you know, I'm a writer. I want people to read what I write. W- was I being sensationalistic? Well, I mean if, if, if you wanna put it like that, yes. I don't, I don't... I'm not embarrassed to say that. I mean, uh, I'm sure that when people write books, they think really hard about their titles and they try to get a title that will, you know, grab people's attention. I know people, respect people very deeply, who never, as a matter of principle, never utter this word. And I've talked with people, I've had people say, um, "You know, I read your book. Let's talk about it, but let's be very clear, I'm not gonna use the word." I've had many conversations with people who've asked me not to use the word. I was on a, I was on a... The first time this came up was a book tour. It was 20 years ago when the fir- book first came out, and I was on one of these, uh, c- uh, call-in shows early in the morning. Time came to call in, seven o'clock. I call in at five or seven. Right before I go on, the host of the show says, "Oh, by the way-"

Lex Fridman 29:42 (laughs)

Randall Kennedy 29:42 "...we have a strict policy here at the station, we never use this word." And I said, "Well, gosh, I wish you had told me this earlier. Does this mean then that you're never going to pronounce fully the title of my book?" She said, "That's right." And I had to make a choice right then and there, "Am I gonna go on or am I not?"

Lex Fridman 30:03 What'd you do?

Randall Kennedy 30:04 I went on, and I abided by the station's rules. And, you know, fine. We had a perfectly fine conversation. Um, and, you know, I... There is a place for euphemism, the American language is a very supple language. There are lots of words that one can use. I do not get angry with people who, um, don't, you know, they say as a matter of principle, they're not gonna use the word, fine. I, I'm willing to... I understand where they're coming from, and, uh, often, I will defer to their wishes. Um, all I say is, I want people to understand where I'm coming from.I'm not just using this word willy-nilly. There's a pedagogical reason. There is a reason for why I'm saying what I'm saying. There is a reason why I use the word.

Lex Fridman 31:00 Can you make the case why using the word is a good idea? And can you make, can you steel man the case why it's a bad idea? Maybe you've heard from some critics-

Randall Kennedy 31:09 Yes.

Lex Fridman 31:09 ... who said that you saying this word out loud is actually causing a lot of harm, not like, uh, harm because people's feelings are hurt, but increasing the amount of racism and hate in the world.

Randall Kennedy 31:21 Yeah. Critics. Let, let's start with the critics.

Lex Fridman 31:23 Sure.

Randall Kennedy 31:24 Um, one, again, going back to the, when the, when the book was first published, I remember going to, uh, the first bookstore I went to, and I talked about the book, had a very, you know, talked, asked questions. And the last comment wasn't a question, but the last comment was made by a, uh, an elderly Black man. I called on him, and he said, "I've listened to what you've had to say, and I appreciate what you've had to say." But he, he said, "But I remain unconvinced. And I remain unconvinced because when I was coming up, this word was used to put me in the back of the bus. And this word was used to prevent me from voting. And this was the word that was used to justify me never being called as a juror. So to me, this word has only one meaning. It's a terrible meaning. I'm never going to use the word. It hurts me when I hear people use the word, especially those who don't h- know anything about the, you know, really about the history of it." And he went on to say, "I think that your book, though well-intended, is probably going to be seen by some people as giving them permission to use the word." And then he stopped. And I thought that there was a lot of power behind that gentleman's com- uh, comment. I think that what he said is probably correct insofar as there are probably some people who read the b- you know, read the book. There are probably some people who are listening to our conversation right now who will, um, think that I'm giving people permission to use the word. Um, you know, I have said that I'm, I'm not. I want people to understand the word. I think that there is a burden that comes from e- w- whenever, you know, whenever you utter a word like this. Um, but that's, you know, that's a critique, and I think there's, I think there's strength to that critique. I'm not gonna say that that's a ridiculous critique. I think that there is something to that. And by the way, I should say, and that's why I would say to anyone, um, "That's right, if this word comes out of your mouth, you are taking on real responsibility." So for years, it doesn't happen so much now, but there were, I'd say for about the first five years after this book was published, I would get an email at least once a week.

Lex Fridman 34:30 Mm-hmm.

Randall Kennedy 34:31 And it would begin like this, you know, "Dear Professor Kennedy, uh, I read your book, and I'm calling to ask you a question." And as soon as I saw that, I knew what the question was gonna be, and it would, w- what the person would say is the following. "I like rap." And then I knew, I knew what was coming. "I like rap. I'm White, and I have Black friends, and we listen to rap, and we're, you know, we're driving in the car, and we're, you know, we're, we're listening to the song. We start s- you know, we start humming along and sing a- singing along. And my Black friends sing along, and when nigger or nigga comes up, they sing, and I don't know what to do. Is it wrong for me to sing along?" This happened so often that I'd say about after about the 10th time I got in- such an email, I wrote a form letter 'cause I didn't wanna just, you know, take up time writing in a le- you know, sort of crafting letter, after letter, after letter. So I wrote a form letter, and basically what I said was, "Listen, number one, you know, I'm flattered that you're asking me, but number one, you, you, you should have a conversation with your friend. Number two, no matter what your friend says..." Let me put something else for you to consider. Let's suppose for the sake of discussion that your friend says, "Oh, doesn't bother me. I know where you're coming from. We're just enjoying the music. I don't think that this is a, you know, a racist utterance, you know, coming out of your mouth." Let's suppose that your friend says that. That doesn't end matters because let's imagine the following. Let's imagine that you're in a, a theater, and you're waiting for the, you know, uh, film to start. And you're just, you know, talking with your friends, or singing with your friends, or just, you know, kicking back with your friends. And they're talking about nigger this or nigga this, and you say it. You, the White boy, say it.And the next thing you feel is a fist, a big fist in your mouth that has been launched by a person that you did not see who was right behind you.

Lex Fridman 37:00 Mm-hmm.

Randall Kennedy 37:01 All this person saw was a White person saying, "Nigga," and the next thing, pow!

Lex Fridman 37:07 Mm-hmm.

Randall Kennedy 37:09 That's not, you know, some sort of overheated scenario coming from some law professor's mind. That is a very plausible scenario. So you have to be worried about lots of things, including mistake. So my advice to you, my, is be prudent. I would stay clear of the word unless, unless you're very certain and unless if you're called on it, you feel you're in a position to defend yourself, defend what you're doing. But the prudent thing would be to stay clear.

Lex Fridman 37:48 There's so many questions I wanna ask there. Uh, one is about the violence and the legal aspect of that is very interesting, uh, you raised that in the book. But, you know,

Lex Fridman 37:57 I do wanna bring up something I probably disagree with you on, which is, uh, you say that there's not a significant difference between the different variations of the N-word.

Randall Kennedy 38:08 Mm-hmm.

Lex Fridman 38:09 Uh, the one, the... Or maybe, maybe you don't. I just, uh, listened to a bunch of your interviews. So, uh, there's the, the version with the, uh, E-R at the end-

Randall Kennedy 38:19 Mm-hmm.

Lex Fridman 38:20 ... version with a G-A at the end-

Randall Kennedy 38:22 Mm-hmm.

Lex Fridman 38:22 ... and then G-R-O at the end. These are all different versions. And I feel like in that list of powerful words, you know, I feel like there's a distinction.

Randall Kennedy 38:34 Yes.

Lex Fridman 38:34 I feel like the number one, uh, spot is the one with the hard R.

Randall Kennedy 38:38 Mm-hmm.

Lex Fridman 38:39 And I don't know, maybe you can, um, try to shed light, but I feel like the one that ends in G-A is really far down the list, in terms of modern culture. So this is, we talked about the evolution of the words-

Randall Kennedy 38:57 Mm-hmm.

Lex Fridman 38:58 ... and, uh, the word queer, for example.

Randall Kennedy 38:59 Mm-hmm.

Lex Fridman 39:00 It feels like because, maybe because of rap, because of comedians, because it's become much more, it lost so much of its power.

Randall Kennedy 39:09 Well-

Lex Fridman 39:10 Oh, you don't think so?

Randall Kennedy 39:11 No, I think there's a difference between nigger and nigga. I mean, people make a distinction between them. And I think that to the extent that lots of people make a distinction between them, I think, you know, just as a sociological fact, they are different. Um, I think that people who get upset if somebody, especially White people. So, you know, if a White person says, "Nigga," and they're, you know, and th- and they, and they're, you know, sort of criticized about it, and they say, "Well, I didn't say nigger, I said, 'nigga'," I, believe me, I think most pe- you know, most people who are mad at them are gonna stay mad at them. Um, now you, you raise the word... You know, so nigger and nigga, I would put in a very different category than Negro.

Lex Fridman 40:07 Educate me here.

Randall Kennedy 40:09 Well, yeah, sure. Um, happy to. Um, Negro is a, um... also controversial. It's also controversial. Um, but Negro has never been viewed by a substantial number of people as a derogatory term, at least in the, in, with- with the same amount of animus, the same amount of, um... It's- it's- it's a very different kind of word than nigger or nigga. I mean, after all, I mean, you know, Negro, Negro, uh, Martin Luther King, Jr., you know, l- l- you know, w- uh, all of his great oratory, Negro. You read the work of, um, you know, Dub- the great W.E.B. Du Bois, Negro. Uh, you read the work of, you know, when- when good, my boss... So, so for instance, I use the word Negro. I use African American, Black, Afro-American, uh, but I also use the word Negro. Now, there are some people who get really mad at me because of, you know, when I use the word Negro. And the, so for instance, there's students who've gotten really quite exercised, and they'll say, you know, I'll be giving a lecture, and I, you know, a hand will go up, I'll call on somebody, and they'll say, "Listen, are you using the word Negro in its, purely because of the historical time period that you're using? So, you, you know, is, is that why you're using it, or are you using it in your own voice?" And often I'll say, "Well, I'm using it in my own voice," and they'll say, "Well, I'm offended. We think that this is, you know, that's old-timey. It's derogatory." When this first came up, I, I said, "Let's pause for a moment, and I'll take that under advisement, and let me, let me look into this."

Lex Fridman 42:23 Mm-hmm.

Randall Kennedy 42:23 And I ended up writing an essay about it, an essay about the history of the terms that Black people have used to describe themselves. And it's a long list, you know, Black, colored, Afro-American, African American, Negro, et cetera. So I go through all that, and I said, "Now, let me just tell you, I, I, I know for certain when I started using the word Negro, uh, often in, in writing."I can date it. Uh, 1983, the summer of 1983 is when I started using the word Negro in my professional life as a lawyer. And I did it for a very specific reason. I did it because my boss demanded that I, Negro, capital N. Now, who was my boss? My boss, in the summer of 1983, was Associate Justice of the United States Supreme Court, Thurgood Marshall, known as Mr. Civil Rights. Now, it seems to me you're telling me that this word is so out of bounds, that this word is derogatory, nobody should ever use this word, does the fact that Thurgood Marshall demanded that I use this word, does that complicate things a little bit? And so I think that people, again, you know, oughta know more. I mean, I've- I've encountered students who don't know very much but who want to lecture me-

Lex Fridman 44:15 Yeah.

Randall Kennedy 44:15 ... uh, on- on word usage, uh, because they know, you know, three sentences about current fashion. And hold it, you know, hold it. By the way, I- I push it further. I sometimes use the word colored, and then, you know, some people really don't like that. Colored, well, you know, there's- there's a, there's an organization still very much, uh, alive in American life and law. The National Association for the Advancement of Colored People, the NAACP. They- they haven't changed their name, and as far as I'm concerned, it's a wonderful organization. Um, there are people who have used the word colored. That's what my grandmother used, colored. Perfectly fine, as far as I'm concerned. So again, uh, we... There are lots of different words that one can use. You can use different formulations. I understand that people have different preferences. Fine. I have my preferences, at least know where I'm coming from.

Lex Fridman 45:32 Still, words have power and they have power to hurt.

Randall Kennedy 45:36 Mm-hmm.

Lex Fridman 45:37 And there's, um, there's a lot of reasons, uh, that I could see to justify the use of the word in its full form, as you're saying, when, in this conversation as you're using it. Uh, one of them is perhaps, uh, fighting for the freedom to be able to use those kinds of words. Uh, so let me ask you about freedom of speech.

Randall Kennedy 45:57 Mm-hmm.

Lex Fridman 45:58 Um... And the censorship of the word. Uh, should the use of the N-word be censored, for example, on social networks? So, w- we can come up with different places. We can say university campuses, uh, maybe in, um, op-eds, or I don't know. But I think social networks currently is a very interesting place.

Randall Kennedy 46:20 Mm-hmm.

Lex Fridman 46:21 Uh, there's a lot of conversations that are happening on them. There's the ability, the technical capability to sentence, to remove the ability of people to use the word. Uh, do you think they should be allowed to use the word, on Twitter, for example?

Randall Kennedy 46:34 Mm-hmm. Um, my response is, it all depends on the way in which the word is being used. If the word is being used to intimidate, if the word is being used to, um, um, uh, terrorize, then no. Uh, along with lots of other words, by the way. I mean, you can have, you could, I could use the word, I suppose, gentleman. I mean, I'm sure that I could conjure up a way in which that word could be used in a f- you know, intimidating way. So I'm, I'm... Should, would I be happy if there was a technology that always blanked this word, N-I-G-G-E-R? I'ma be, I would be against that. For one thing, it would erase, uh, the name of one of my books. And, uh, I'm, I think that, you know, and I'm per- I think the book actually has a lot of useful information, makes some useful points. Um, if, and by the way, if, let's imagine, let's imagine a world in which there was a technology that blanked every time N-I-G-G-E-R appeared. You would have... What would that do to novels by James Baldwin, by Toni Morrison, by... What would that do to the speeches of Malcolm X, Martin Luther King Jr.? What would that do to the comedy albums of Richard Pryor, Katt Williams, Dave Chappelle? Um, you know, w- what would that... If- if one sort of plays that out, would one want to have all of those blanks in important literary and political, uh, performances? No, I don't want such blanks. What I want, I would want for peop- I would want the word to be there and for people to understand how to deal with this word. And by the way, you've used the word hurt an awful lot. So let's talk about hurt.... um, I think we need to be more careful with the way in which we deal with hurt. Because, um, people can be justifiably hurt. You can have justifiably hurt feelings. And if somebody has justifiably hurt feelings, I then think that we should turn to the person who is hurt those feelings and say, "You have acted wrongly because this person's feelings are justifiably hurt in relationship to what you've done." On the other hand, there are people who have hurt feelings and frankly, it's unjustified. So just- just imagine the following. Let's- let's imagine that I give a talk about the greatness of Martin Luther King Jr. And then let's imagine that a Klu Klux Klansman comes up to me after my talk and says, "Oh, you have now hurt my feelings." What? Am I supposed to be... Am I supposed to apologize? Am I supposed to be regretful that my talk about the greatness of Martin Luther King Jr. has hurt the feelings of the Klansman? No. My response is gonna be, "You know, you need to re-evaluate your feelings because actually, uh, y- your feeling of hurt is unjustified." And no, I'm... You know, no. There's no apology coming from me.

Lex Fridman 50:36 But there- there's a kind of line and perhaps the gray area, and maybe the word hurt has been overused 'cause if you try to avoid hurting, uh, a small fraction of society that is mentally weak in a way where everything hurts them, that's- that's the wrong way to build a society.

Randall Kennedy 50:56 Mm-hmm.

Lex Fridman 50:56 But if we flip that upside down and say, trying to maximize the amount of love in the world, uh, and think about decisions we make in terms of language we use to try to maximize the amount of love, and not just short term but long term.

Randall Kennedy 51:09 Okay.

Lex Fridman 51:10 And that's where freedom of speech is very powerful because it's a short term painful thing often, but long term beneficial thing, just having freedom. And so there is where the question of the N-word starts to come in. How much, uh... How do we think about its use on the internet, on college campuses, in a way that maximizes the amount of love and compassion and camaraderie in the world?

Randall Kennedy 51:38 Mm-hmm. I think that's good. And I'm... You know, I would associate myself with, uh, your vision. How can we maxima- how can we maximize love? No, I love that. I- I- I think that's great. So let's- let's- let's take that on. Um, I doubt that the way of doing that is to, um, uh, erase the infamous N-word. I doubt that the way of doing that is to say to people, "We understand that your feelings are really hurt and we're gonna do all that we can to avoid this symbolic action." You know, maybe this word or maybe this symbol. "We- w- we're gonna really, we're gonna do all that we can to suppress it so that we can have a more loving universe." I doubt that that's the way to do it. I think a better way to do it, I think a- a better way to do it would be to fully educate people, including educate people such that... You see that over there? That is the uniform of the Ku Klux Klan. I want you to be educated about the uniform of the Ku Klux Klan so that you can look at the uniform of the Ku Klux Klan and know what it's about. You're not terrorized by it. You're not immediately... You're not... You don't see it and sink to your knees and start wailing and crying. You don't see it and say, "Ah, I'm traumatized." No, you don't do any of that. You see it, you understand it. If somebody asks you about it, you're fully prepared to talk about it. It seems to me that that attitude, that poise, that strength, that knowledge would be a better way of equipping us to have a more loving world. And by the way, just so, you know, I would say that about the swastika. I would say it about the infamous N-word. I would say it about all of the things that we're talking about. It would be better for people to be educated so that they are not traumatized.

Lex Fridman 54:11 (sighs) So to you, you know, uh, the N-word should not be removed from, um, Huck Finn, Adventures of Huck Finn, or from the works of James Baldwin or Toni Morrison?

Randall Kennedy 54:25 Not at all. In fact, it seems to me that the- the bowdlerization of, uh, of- of- of these great artists' literary, you know, work is, as far as I'm concerned, highly objectionable. Highly objectionable.

Lex Fridman 54:42 W- when is it okay for a White man to say the N-word with a hard R?

Randall Kennedy 54:47 Well, well, you know, um, here we need to focus on s- the word say. Is it ever okay for anyone, you know, Black, White, Pink, Yellow, I don't care, Red, Orange? Is it okay for anyone to use this word in a way......uh, to put down people, to terrorize people, to intimidate people. Answer, no. But, you know, and I'd say that, Black person. I've seen, I... And by the way, I've seen Black people use this word to try to intimidate, put down other Black people. Bad. So I'm against it with a Black person, White person, doesn't matter. On the other hand, on the other hand, um, imagine, um, imagine a White person who is giving a lecture on the history of American racism. A lecture on the history of American racism. And in giving that lecture, quotes the, you know, uh, White racist politicians who, until fairly recently in American life, used the infamous N-word. So imagine a White history professor giving a lecture about the history of American racism and says, "In 1948, this is what so-and-so running for the presidency of the United States said." And then quotes a paragraph or two in which the infamous N-word is featured. Is that bad? No, that's not bad. No, that's not bad. Sounds like a perfectly good lecture and I'm glad that you put the infamous N-word in there so that we can see that as recently as 1948 people who were running for the presidency of the United States openly used the word. That does not bother me. I'll say this too. Now, you know, somebody says, "Well, you know, nice job, Kennedy, but you've, you've, you've, you know, you've limited it to over here. You've put it in an academic setting. What about other settings?" It does not bother me. Let's imagine somebody who's a comedian, a White comedian, who is, um, satirizing, uh, word usage. Let's imagine a White comedian who, uh, is satirizing our current practice and wants to poke fun at the way in which, um, you know, let's imagine you have a Black rapper who invites people on stage and let's suppose they invite a Black person on stage and they're perfectly happy when the Black person is full out with, you know, their lyrics. They invite a White person on stage. The White person is still, you know, doesn't really, you know, sort of mystified but, comes on stage and full out with what the rapper says, including the infamous N-word, and then the Black rapper gets mad. Imagine the White comedian who satirizes that, pokes fun at that, and in poking fun at that, says the infamous N-word. Am I angry? No, I'm not angry. Not angry at all.

Lex Fridman 58:57 What if in the process of satirizing, that comedian's not very funny?

Randall Kennedy 59:01 You say to them that, that, "Bad joke, you were not funny."

Lex Fridman 59:04 Okay.

Randall Kennedy 59:05 I don't abje- I don't object to the use of the infamous N-word, I just say, "You know, mm, you're not very funny."

Lex Fridman 59:11 But because there's a, there's a line when the joke is not funny, it just seems like the, the comedy is used as a cover to actually say something hateful. It's an interesting thing about comedy. I feel like the funnier you are, the more you can get away with.

Randall Kennedy 59:28 Probably.

Lex Fridman 59:28 And that's something to do with the, the thing we said earlier which is when you use words that have power, you should do so with skill and competence.

Randall Kennedy 59:37 Mm-hmm.

Lex Fridman 59:38 And, uh, the responsibility those words carry.

Randall Kennedy 59:42 Again, the cases that I'm most familiar with are the cases involving, uh, teachers, professors, you know, academic, and it is said sometimes, oh, you know, w- why do I object? I object, sometimes people say, because, uh, uh, you know, I suspect that this teacher just wanted to say the word, and that all of this is a cover, a pretext. Do I... You know, in my sense, my sense of it is, no, I don't think it's a pretext. If, you know, if it's pretextual, that's bad, but in my experience, I have not seen that. I don't believe that that's what's going on.

Lex Fridman 1:00:24 I agree with you on that but sometimes I do see people that kinda have this, uh, fly flying towards the light, desire to say something, um, controversial-

Randall Kennedy 1:00:36 Mm-hmm.

Lex Fridman 1:00:36 ... and edgy.

Randall Kennedy 1:00:37 Mm-hmm.

Lex Fridman 1:00:38 And they don't realize that there's a responsibility there, there's a skill that you should... You shouldn't just say... I mean, actually when comedians first start out, they'll sometimes go into that territory, they'll, they'll say edgy stuff-

Randall Kennedy 1:00:48 Mm-hmm.

Lex Fridman 1:00:49 ... that's totally not funny and then you realize this is not... Like, the edgier the thing, the more skill is required to really serve. Like, uh, if you're, I- if you're cooking as a chef a poisonous fish-

Randall Kennedy 1:01:02 Mm-hmm.

Lex Fridman 1:01:03 ... there's a responsibility on how to cook the damn thing so you don't poison the people eating it.

Randall Kennedy 1:01:07 I would agree, um, but to get back to your question-Let's imagine that somebody produces a new set of Lenny Bruce albums.

Lex Fridman 1:01:19 Yeah.

Randall Kennedy 1:01:20 So Lenny Bruce was white. Lenny Bruce used the term nigger in his sets.

Lex Fridman 1:01:27 He sure did.

Randall Kennedy 1:01:27 Question, would I want Lenny Bruce's albums now to be purged of the infamous N-word? My response, absolutely not.

Lex Fridman 1:01:43 As another follow-on sort of question, what you think. I've seen, um, interviews you've done about this particular book. The title of those interviews on YouTube and elsewhere would use the full word.

Randall Kennedy 1:01:56 Mm-hmm.

Lex Fridman 1:01:58 What do you think about that? Sh- should I use this word in the title?

Randall Kennedy 1:02:03 In my view the answer would be yes. Again, are, there are people, I've been on interviews, I've, you know, been on stage with people who, um, had a different conclusion reached. And, uh, you know, I res- I respect a different way. Again, uh, there, there, there is a place for, for, for euphemism. Again, it all dep- you know, it all depends. I'm not, I'm not offended. Let's imagine, let's imagine that you posted this and you had asterisks instead of spelling it out. Would I be offended? No, I wouldn't be offended. Uh, I would prefer the full spelling, but I would understand where you're coming from. Would it offend me? Nah, it wouldn't offend me.

Lex Fridman 1:02:50 Well, here's the weird calculation is, which version of the word in the title, as silly as that is, uh, brings more love to the world?

Randall Kennedy 1:03:01 Hm.

Lex Fridman 1:03:02 It's hard.

Randall Kennedy 1:03:03 Mm-hmm.

Lex Fridman 1:03:03 And, and basically your answer is, "I don't know."

Randall Kennedy 1:03:05 Mm-hmm.

Lex Fridman 1:03:06 (laughs) Your, your answer is kinda you have to do it and find out.

Randall Kennedy 1:03:12 I'm not sure. A- again, you know, there's certain questions w- in which, there's certain questions y- you're not gonna ... We're not really going to know. There's no sociologist who's gonna be able to tell us that. So what do we do then? Then we go to secondary positions and my secondary position is, I don't know, one thing that I hold onto, however, very strongly is, uh, the virtue of openness. The virtue of transparency. The virtue of freedom. And I feel as though if I'm holding onto those things, if I'm trying to engage in a serious conversation, uh, in which I'm trying to make other people understand me and I'm listening carefully to other people, I feel at ease. I feel at ease. I feel, uh, this is going to eventuate in something positive. And, you know, I, I feel okay.

Lex Fridman 1:04:30 You are at Harvard.

Randall Kennedy 1:04:32 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 1:04:32 You're one of the most respected people in the history of Harvard. Um, that said, you did write a book with the N-word in it, and you also have a lot of opinions that challenge, uh, the mainstream perspectives on race from all sides. Uh, hopefully we'll get to talk about some of them. Um, but what's your view on Harvard and universities in general, and speech?

Randall Kennedy 1:04:55 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 1:04:55 Did you feel pressure f- from any direction on, um, on first of all, the title of this book, the content of the book, and in general your views on race?

Randall Kennedy 1:05:06 Yeah. I am very laudatory of Harvard University. Um, I've been at Harvard since, uh, 1984. I think it is a wonderful place to work. I, um ... There has not, there h- I, I have, uh, you know, in, in, in the various positions I've taken with, is, and particularly with respect to this book or all my other books, what has Harvard University done? Harvard University has done nothing but provide support, sustenance, encouragement. Um, you know, I think that, uh, people get down on Harvard University. I would say to anybody, imagine the following. Imagine that the ethos of Harvard University became the governing ethos of the United States overnight. Tomorrow we would wake up in a much better United States of America. I, um, you know, I've, I, I have, um ... I've been supported by Harvard University. I think well of Harvard University. That's not to say that I don't have criticisms of it. But, um, by and large, Harvard University, more than by and large, overwhelmingly, it has provided me, and I think it overwhelmingly provides, uh, my colleagues with a work setting in which they can do their work, uh, without fear. And, you know, that's a good thing. Are there cer- are there certain, you know, aspects of Harvard University about which I'm critical? Yeah, sure.

Lex Fridman 1:07:01 Uh, by the way, I think a few people, rightfully or wrongfully would, um, disagree with you that if the ethos of Harvard University took over the country, it'd be a better place.

Randall Kennedy 1:07:11 Mm-hmm.

Lex Fridman 1:07:12 But there's a lot of interesting ways to break that down 'cause Harvard, there's not one ethos. There's a lot of things going on-

Randall Kennedy 1:07:17 Yes.

Lex Fridman 1:07:17 ... that are very interesting.

Randall Kennedy 1:07:18 Yes.

Lex Fridman 1:07:19 Uh, but one of the things that's happening-... is, uh, the disproportionate and, uh, kind of aggressive growth of the administration versus, uh, faculty and students. I- I think the power of a university should always be with the faculty and the students. That's where the beauty is. That's where the flourishing happens. And the more you have kind of rules and bureaucracy and all this kind of stuff, the less powerful the university is.

Randall Kennedy 1:07:42 I think that, uh, at my university and at many universities, that's right. There's too much bureaucracy, too much regulation. Uh, and, you know, are there, are there dangers to freedom of expression at my university and at other universities? Answer, yeah, there are. There are. So, uh, and this has really hit home for me. There was a, there was a period of time in which I was g- I was getting off of, you know... I- I had gotten, I'd gotten off of all boards. I was just doing my work. "Forget it, I'm just gonna do my work. I'm not gonna be on, you know, associated with any organizations." In the last five years, that has changed quite dramatically. I have, I have gotten on various... I have as- asso- I've re-associated myself with various organizations, mainly organizations involving academic freedom because, uh, of what's going on, uh, at, you know, on university campuses. Again, I have been, at least thus far, thus far, uh, this hasn't pinched me where I live. But, um-

Lex Fridman 1:09:06 You mean in the space of ideas?

Randall Kennedy 1:09:07 In the space of ideas, in the space of speech, in the face of, you know, teaching, you know, I- I haven't f- I haven't been pinched. But I am concerned about things. So for instance, let's imagine that you're applying for a job, you know, you wanna be an assistant professor. Or let's suppose that you're seeking a promotion. Uh, and, and on many university campuses, you are asked to give a DEI statement, in which you say, um, "I plan to, you know... You know, one, one of the reasons why you should hire me, or one of the reasons why you should promote me is because I'm going to, you know, advance the, you know, the DEI, uh, ambitions."

Lex Fridman 1:09:54 Diversity, equity and inclusion, for people who don't know.

Randall Kennedy 1:09:57 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 1:09:57 This is the general, uh, set of programs, uh, that e- most universities now have.

Randall Kennedy 1:10:03 Yes. E- e- that's right. So, you know, you've gotta sort of, you know... Basically, what you're being asked to do, whether they say it explicitly or not, they don't say this explicitly but this is what they're be- this is what is up, what you're being asked to do is to say, "I'm down with the diversity, equity and inclusion ethos, program, policy, campaign. And here's what I've done that shows that I'm down with this program, and therefore I'm okay." Well, you know, a lot of what I do would fit very comfortably within that. But let's suppose that I didn't, just suppose I didn't like this. And by the way, there's certain aspects of the B- DEI, you know, industry that I don't like. You mean to tell me that, uh, you know, I'm being judged at an academic institution... Let's suppose I wanna be a chemist. Let's suppose I wanna be a physicist. Let's suppose I wanna be, I don't care, uh, you know, a, a, a, you know, a critic of literature. Uh, I oppose this program. I don't... You know, I'm, I, I, I don't think this is the way in which higher education should be going. Should I have to, on pain of relinquishing my ability to be hired, uh, should I have to sign onto this? Uh, just suppose, and s- let, let, let's change it around. Let's not make it a DEI campaign, let's make it a make America great again campaign. What would we think then? Let's suppose it was something that said, instead of it saying DEI, let's make it s- let's make it say, um, "The advancement of American capitalism as we know it." We want you to be down with that. What have you done that shows us that you believe in the advancement of capitalism in America? Would I be happy about... No, I would say this is... No. Well, no with respect to these, as far as I'm concerned, with the, you know, the DEI statements. Here's another one, um, I just learned and, in fact... I mean, th- there are certain things that are happening, and I must say, I mean, I'm in academia but, uh, it- it's, it's news to me. I didn't kn- know until relatively recently about positionality statements. So these are statements in which somebody writes an article... Let's suppose, I, you know, I write an article. And, um, it's not enough for me just to submit my article to some law review or to some, you know, some other sort of journal. No, in addition to me submitting my article, I've got to give a, uh, a positionality statement in which I say whether I am, you know, gay or straight, or what e- or what have you, in which I say my race, in which I say my nationality, in which I say my, you know, my stance toward this ideological position or that ideological position.

Lex Fridman 1:13:35 Interesting.

Randall Kennedy 1:13:36 Wh, what?

Lex Fridman 1:13:38 Is this a, a becoming a, kind of a standard-

Randall Kennedy 1:13:42 I don't know how widespread it is. I know there was a ni- a very good article in the New York Times, uh, a couple of days ago about these positionality statements and, in fact, that's what sort of tipped me off. Somebody had told me... There's a law review at my home institution, and I had a friend who sort of mentioned this offhandedly and who s- who said, "Well, I submitted an article to this journal and I was a little bit taken aback in so far as they did s- have me fill out a questionnaire in which i- I- in which I was required to state my race, state this, state that, state the other." And, you know, um, as far as I'm concerned, well, what does that have to do with a proper assessment of somebody's work? This concerns me. Um, I'm concerned about the fact... You, you know, a, a, a little while ago you mentioned, a little while ago you mentioned the word Negro. Uh, at, I was talking with colleagues a couple of months ago and somebody mentioned that, uh, this word had come up in their class because what had happened was one student was reading from a Supreme Court decision and the word Negro was part of what they read out, and another student held up his hand and said to the student who was reading, "A, you should be careful because, you know, I find the word Negro offensive, and you need to be careful about even saying a word that would be offensive to someone." And this person went... And then, you know, the teacher was, you know, "Well, you know, you know, what should I say in those circumstances? You know, what should I have said?" And I volunteered, I, you know, and you know, and you know, and I said, "Well, gosh, that's really interesting 'cause, see, if that had come up in my class, um, I would have said, 'Well, frankly I don't, you know, I don't see what the, the... I don't even see what the big deal is." 'Cause I used the word Negro. And, um, you know, uh, Harvard University is not on, you know, on some island that is, you know, apart from everything else that's happening in the world. If these things are happening in other places, if they're happening at Stanford, if they're happening at Yale, if they're happening at Columbia, uh, you know, they're gonna happen at Harvard. Um, but thus far, and I'm, I'm, I am most especially experienced in life at Harvard Law School. Harvard Law School is an open environment in which ideas are, uh, tested and they are tested, uh, fully. And, uh, it's, it's, it's because of that, that I say I have been fully supported at Harvard Law School, feel that it is an excellent place in which to do work. I'm a, I'm, I'm a fan. I am a fan and I'm not embarrassed to say it. I am a fan, uh, of, uh, of, of my workplace, Harvard Law School, uh, very happy to be associated with H- Harvard Law

Randall Kennedy 1:17:32 School.

Lex Fridman 1:17:33 Zooming out, uh, in general on education, um, uh, there's something called critical race theory.

Randall Kennedy 1:17:38 Mm-hmm.

Lex Fridman 1:17:39 Um, can you comment on what are your thoughts about, uh, this kind of perspective on race and race in America, uh, to the degree that it's becoming a part-

Randall Kennedy 1:17:51 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 1:17:51 ...of the education program?

Randall Kennedy 1:17:53 Okay, so the first thing I wanna say-

Lex Fridman 1:17:55 What is it?

Randall Kennedy 1:17:56 Well, the first thing I wanna say about critical race theory is that critical race theory has become a term, so I'm gonna put quotation marks around the term critical race theory. We can, we, um, in a minute I'll talk about critical race theory without quotation marks. But to begin with, I wanna talk about critical race theory because the reason why people are talking about critical race theory so much now is because politicians, mainly Republican right-wing politicians, have created a boogeyman, critical race theory, with quotation marks around it. They have created a boogeyman and they have tried to make it seem as though this boogeyman believes all sorts of ideas that Americans should loathe, and that Americans should fear. And they've created this boogeyman and they've created it... And they've done a very good job of creating the boogeyman, and they have mobilized, uh, sufficient, uh, um, you know, public support such that, you know, there are a number of states that have passed laws, uh, prohibiting the teaching of so-called critical race theory. Now, the first thing I wanna say about this is that, um, this campaign, this, these laws, these various policies telling teachers, "Don't teach this and don't teach that, and you can't, you can't use this book, you can't use that book," this is a frightening encroachment-...on freedom. Freedom of speech, freedom to learn, freedom to listen, freedom to read. That's terrible. And it's one of the most frightening things that has happened in American life in recent memory. So, that's the first thing I wanna say about so-called Critical Race Theory. Now, now I'll say something. I'm gonna take the quotation marks off of the term Critical Race Theory. Critical Race Theory is, is a sort of a... You, you could have a nice conversation about actually what it is. Um, one way of viewing it is to say that, "Well, Critical Race Theory is a community of ideas that comes from a community of people." Uh, the community of people would be people, uh, in legal academia, in the, um, you know, the period 1980... Starting in probably the middle of the 1980s. It would be associated with people like Derrick Bell, it would be associated with people like Kimberle Crenshaw, people like Charles Lawrence, people like Richard Delgado, people like Mary Matsuda. And these are folks who held, uh, em- embraced a couple of, you know, they, they, they articulated a couple of propositions. One of their propositions was that, um, liberal race policy was insufficient. They would say that, um, the racial policies of a person like my old boss, Thurgood Marshall, the lib- you know, the liberal, liberal racial policies were insufficient to grapple fully with the pervasiveness and the depth and intensity of American racism. Their ba- their basic claim, and I think by the way it was a good claim, their basic claim was that American racism is more central, more deeply embedded in American life than, uh, most people perceived, including liberals. And I think there was a lot of strength to that proposition. Um, but then they also took on some other propositions with which I was in very strong disagreement. So, I think it's perfectly fine to say that racism is a force in American life that is deeper, more pervasive, more stubborn, more resilient than, I think, people often, you know, often understand, often perceive. But then some of the folks, you know, in, in Critical Race Theory, um, push further. Uh, one of the propositions that some of the people in Critical Race Theory took was the proposition that, um, uh, America was doomed to always be a country that would be governed according to the dictates of White supremacy. Uh, Derrick Bell, who was a colleague of mine and a friend of mine, took that position. He talked about the permanence of, uh, racism in American life. And he took the position that the various changes that had been wrought in American life were really, you know, mainly cosmetic. Uh, they didn't amount to a wh- a whole lot. I mean, Derrick Bell took the position, you know, the s- the second Reconstruction, the Civil Rights movement, well, yeah, it made changes, but at the end of the day, Black people were still, you know, a- after the second Reconstruction, were still in a position of almost, you know, you know, I don't know, some of them would even say neo-slavery. Well, I think that's ridiculous. Uh, the second Reconstruction changed a lot. And as for neo-slavery, neo-slavery, what are you talking about? Uh, uh, a Black American was president of the United States between the years 2008 and 2016. I mean, wha- what are we talking about here? Uh, there's been a tremendous change and I think people ought to understand that. Now, am I saying that everything is peachy keen and all right? No. Uh, the United States is still, uh, to a very large extent, still a pigmentocracy, but that doesn't mean that a lot hasn't changed. A lot has. So, I disagree with certain tenets of Critical Race Theory and have been very outspoken in my disagreement. It... There's another one, by the way, I want, I need to mention because we've talked so much in our discussion about freedom of speech, freedom to teach, freedom of listening. Another big problem that I've had with some of the people who talk of themselves as Critical Race Theory people has to do with their attitude towards freedom, freedom of speech. Some Critical Race Theory people think that, uh, the American legal system is wrong in the latitude that it gives to what they call hate speech....or the latitude that it gives to what they would view as racist beliefs. Uh, some of, some of the people who associate themselves with critical race theory think that racist beliefs ought to be expunged with the aid of state power, if need be. Well, I'm against that. And, um, you know, I, I think we are at a moment, a, an ironic moment in which actually it's the right wing that has embraced some of the ideas that were championed by some of the s-, some of the people who c- call themselves critical race theorists. You know, they say, "Oh, we ought to expunge hate speech." Well, the right wing is saying this critical race theory, that's hate speech, so let's expunge it. And, um, so I, you know, again, I've been very outspoken in my criticism of, uh, some of the illiberal dimensions of critical race theory. So I've, you know, I've been a critic of certain features of critical race theory. I have, uh, applauded certain features of critical race theory. Um, you know, critical race theory, you know, there's some aspects of it that I think have been useful. There's some aspects of it that I think have been, you know, profoundly wrong-headed. Um, so that's where I am and I certainly and, you know, above all, I certainly am against any efforts to remove it from, you know, the intellectual universe. It is a part of our intellectual universe. People ought to know about it and people ought to debate it and people ought to be free to make up their minds to, uh, conclude what they will about the strengths and weaknesses of critical race theory.

Lex Fridman 1:27:48 And, uh, we'll talk about the pessimistic and the optimistic perspective on race in the history of the 20th century in America. I think you have very interesting perspectives there. But before that, I'd love to look at the current moment and,

Lex Fridman 1:28:06 um, you had a conversation with Glenn Loury and, uh, John McWhirter, and, uh, from there, it became clear to me, I think John made clear how important to, uh, the conversation about race is policing-

Randall Kennedy 1:28:23 Mm.

Lex Fridman 1:28:23 ...in t- in today's society. That that's where a lot of African Americans feel is sort of the, the pinnacle of racism sits, the people that believe there's still racism in America, there's still a lot of racism in America. That's where it is. So, um, to what degree do you think there's widespread institutional racism in policing?

Randall Kennedy 1:28:47 Yeah. Well, uh, my first book-

Lex Fridman 1:28:51 Yep.

Randall Kennedy 1:28:52 ...was a book called Race, Crime, and the Law. And, uh-

Lex Fridman 1:28:56 1997.

Randall Kennedy 1:28:58 1997, wow.

Lex Fridman 1:29:00 (laughs)

Randall Kennedy 1:29:01 So-

Lex Fridman 1:29:01 Time flies.

Randall Kennedy 1:29:02 Time flies. Um, unfortunately, unfortunately, um, the, the impetus behind that book stands. That book was propelled by a sense that with respect to the administration of criminal justice, uh, African Americans are, uh, feel deeply aggrieved and they feel deeply aggrieved with good reason. And they feel deeply aggrieved with good reason in at least two dimensions. On the one hand, on the one hand, uh, African Americans suffer from under-protection. And in fact, in that book, the central theme of that book was that Black Americans suffer from under-protection. If you take a look at the broad, you know, the sort of the broad trajectory of American history and ask yourself w- you know, in what way have Black Americans been most oppressed? Well, take a look at the antebellum period, period before the abolition of slavery. Before the abolition of slavery in the, the, the locales where most Black people resided, namely the slave states, in a lot of those areas, question, was there a crime called the murder of a Black person? Answer, for a long period, the answer was no. There might have been a tort, you know, so if a white person killed the slave, uh, killed a slave, uh, that person could be sued because they had, uh, they had injured the property of another and would have to pay money to, you know, for that. But had they committed a crime? Answer, no. Um, in the antebellum period......were Black women protected against the crime of rape? In most states, the answer was no. There was no such crime. Let's go to after. A- a- and you know, slavery is abolished, thank God. Slavery is abolished. Then let's see, you know, what happens? What, you know? So we hear lynching, lynching betwe- in the, from, from 1890 until, let's say, 1930. Well, in the eigh- you know, in 1890, there were pro- there was probably, you know, I would say p- there was probably on average a lynching every day in the United States. You know, w- well over 300 lynchings. Uh, it goes down. That was the case in the 1890s, probably the first decade of the 20th century, and then it starts going down. What was lynching about? Lynching (laughs) was about Black people being executed outside the law. Did the legal system do anything about that? Answer, no. You know, you, you, show me, show me cases in which people were prosecuted criminally for engaging in lynching. You come up, in most places, with a null set. Black people suffered the under-protection of the law. Do Black people still suffer the under-protection of the law? The answer is yes. And people talk about the Kerner Commission report, 1968, uh, Black people were asked, you know, with respect to the police, "What's your m- what's your main complaint?" In many places, the main complaint was, "We don't have police protection! (laughs) You know, when, when, when things happen to us, when our houses are burgled, when our businesses are, um, encroached upon by robbers, when our businesses are robbed, when we're assaulted, you know, nothing happens! The police protect White people. They don't protect us." Under-protection. Our society right now, if you take a look at the statistics, who is most liable to be raped, robbed, the victim of assault, uh, y- uh, what have you? Black people. I mean, and then i- it's, and it's not even close. Under-protection. So that's one way in which the administration of criminal justice harms Black people, by not doing what government is supposed to do, which is protect us. Y- 14th Amendment, you know, p- prot- equal protection, I underline protection, of the law. So that was a big theme of Race, Crime and the Law. Now second thing, second, and this is the thing that gets most attention, and

Randall Kennedy 1:35:26 it's important. I think that the under-protection story does not get enough attention. But then there's a second story. The second story is that Black people have historically and still today, uh, Black people are subjects of invidious racial discrimination when it comes to, when it comes to, um, police action. So, you know, uh, walking down the street-

Lex Fridman 1:36:00 Mm-hmm.

Randall Kennedy 1:36:00 ...walking down the street, you have a Black person who's, let's say, 20 years old. You have a White person who's 20 years old. And let's make them men. They're both w- just walking down the street. And the question, attitude of the police towards these two? An attitude, you know, is a complicated thing. It can show itself in various ways. It can show itself in a look. It can show itself in who, who gets the look, you know? T- a Black person's, you know, walking down the street or running down the street. A White person's walking down the street or running down the street. Uh, what happens with respect to the police? Um, let's suppose that, you know, who, who gets the second look? Who is followed? Who is detained for a moment?

Lex Fridman 1:37:07 Well, some of it, uh, is just a, on a small tangent, and I apologize to interrupt, but attitude is an interesting one, um, because a lot of it, a lot of the interaction doesn't show up in the data.

Randall Kennedy 1:37:20 Mm-hmm.

Lex Fridman 1:37:21 So detained, for example, starts showing up in the data. But before then, the second look, the third look, the first look, this is where the gray area of conversation happens, because, uh-

Randall Kennedy 1:37:32 Very much so.

Lex Fridman 1:37:33 ...culture and society happens in the stuff that doesn't often show up in the data.

Randall Kennedy 1:37:37 Yep. Yep. So I tell you, uh, this really came home to me several years ago. I was, I was in New York City.And it was at a time when there was a lot of discussion over the, um-

Lex Fridman 1:37:55 Stop and frisk?

Randall Kennedy 1:37:56 ... stop and frisk. Basically, you know, racial profiling on the street. And I was walking. I was, I was, I was in Harlem. I'm walking down the street and, frankly, th- you know, the police weren't bothering me. I'm just walking. No, no, the police weren't bothering me, but, you know, I'm of a certain age. I, I did notice, though, I was, I was looking at the police and the way that the police attitude, it had, you know, it had to do with body posture. It had to do with, that's right, who got a second look. It had to... I noticed, I'm, I'm walking down the street. I'm walking in Harlem. There, you know, there, there are White people in the street. You know, most of the people, though, were Black, some, some Hispanic. The level of contempt, the level of animus, the level of unfriendliness that was pouring off the cop, the police, they weren't, they didn't say anything. Nope, they didn't detain. They didn't say anything. It was palpable. I could feel the attitude that was being, being directed at the young Black men. And the thing is, see, the thing is, it's not as if this doesn't matter. It matters, because the way I saw it, these young Black men knew. They felt the contempt that the police were shedding, and this was gonna have a consequence. The consequence it was gonna have is, let's imagine that the police did say, "Excuse me, um, uh, you know, what are you up to?" Now, if you have been feeling this contempt, if you feel like the officer who was asking this question doesn't like you, doesn't know anything about you, but just doesn't like you on sight, you might answer in a certain sort of way. You're not going to give the cop the benefit of the doubt and basically think, "Well, you know, policeman's just, you know, asking me this, you know, probably just trying to make the neighborhood safe." Well, if, if that's your feeling, you know, "The policeman's just asking me this, trying to make the neighborhood safe. Well, officer, the reason why I'm here is such-and-such and, you know, thanks for your service." That's one response. Another response is, "I'm not gonna tell you anything. You know, I'm not gonna tell you anything. I know that you don't mean me any, I don't, I know that you don't mean me any good. I'm not gonna tell you anything. Am I free to leave?" And then the cop, having heard that, then says something back. You know, after five minutes, what do you have? You have an altercation on your hand. And I, I felt that. And that is part, and you're absolutely right, that's not written down. It doesn't get to court. It's, it's, it's, it's there, but it's, it's an important part of street life. It's an informal part of street life.

Lex Fridman 1:41:29 And it has ripple effects because that young Black man will probably talk shit about that cop later that day.

Randall Kennedy 1:41:37 Yup.

Lex Fridman 1:41:37 So the narrative persists and then the cop will s- like also talk shit and then there's these narratives.

Randall Kennedy 1:41:43 Yup.

Lex Fridman 1:41:44 And I think the contempt is such a-

Randall Kennedy 1:41:47 It's-

Lex Fridman 1:41:47 ... it's such a powerful thing.

Randall Kennedy 1:41:49 It's so hard to disentangle because you're absolutely right.

Lex Fridman 1:41:53 Yeah.

Randall Kennedy 1:41:53 The young man, let's suppose that the story ends, quote, "well."

Lex Fridman 1:41:59 Right.

Randall Kennedy 1:42:00 He's gonna go and he's gonna be talking with his friends and he's gonna say, "Let me, let me tell you what just happened to me." And his friends are gonna say, "Oh, yeah, that doesn't surprise me. Let me tell you what, uh, what happened to me." And, you know, for two hours this goes on. The anger, the feeling of humiliation, the feeling of aggrievement grows. It's disseminated, and that's part of what we have. But that's not all of, that's not, that's, that's, that's, you know, that's a important part of what we have, but we have e- it's even worse than that, because then you ask the question, you know, what about, what about things we do know? Um, I know this from, you know, from my teaching. This was brought up, you know, there was a lawsuit in New York City. And notice I didn't say, you know, I didn't, I didn't say Birmingham, Alabama. I didn't say Atlanta, Georgia. I didn't say Tallahassee, Florida. I didn't say, you know, the Deep South. I didn't say Montana. I didn't say Idaho. New York City! You know, cosmopolitan place, metropolis. In New York City, the police were challenged with respect to their policies. A judge wrote a very lengthy opinion, and the facts were rolled out, and the facts were really quite horrifying. People, there were, there were, there were, there were Black men who had been stopped many, many times. It wasn't just once, over and over and over again, under circumstances in which they ought not have been stopped.And, you know, this has real consequences. It doesn't just show up here, though, of course. It also shows up in other places with respect to the administration of justice. And, uh, we still have a, you know, a big problem. Now, y- you mentioned, you know, the police. If you ask yourself, who are the state agents that are most consequential? The police. I mean, you walking down the street, what other agents have guns on them? What other agents are authorized (laughs) by the law to shoot you under certain circumstance? It's the police. The police are the most consequential agents of the state that most people interact with.

Lex Fridman 1:44:51 I mean, there's, uh, there's, um, to push back a little bit, so, of consequential in a, in a, in a physical sense. But if we return to the power of the psychological sense of contempt, um, I would say store clerks and stuff like that can also be a source of contempt.

Randall Kennedy 1:45:05 They're not agents of the state.

Lex Fridman 1:45:06 Right. Uh, but if we look at the landscape of contempt, which throughout the 20th century, you know, uh, or the bus, right? Um, that you can experience the same kind of contempt-

Randall Kennedy 1:45:21 You can-

Lex Fridman 1:45:21 ... in other aspects of society. But yes, the cops-

Randall Kennedy 1:45:24 ... you can. I would say-

Lex Fridman 1:45:24 ... have consequences.

Randall Kennedy 1:45:25 ... I would still put the poli- the policeman or the police person is a person walking down the street with a gun.

Lex Fridman 1:45:36 Gun, yeah.

Randall Kennedy 1:45:37 And if you think about the way in which the law, the, the extent to which the police are authorized to use their force, the police have extraordinary, um, you know, extraordinary authority.

Lex Fridman 1:45:58 Mm-hmm.

Randall Kennedy 1:45:59 You know, y- look, look, you're, you're, you're driving your car and you're speeding. The police could arrest you right then and there, and take you to jail. That's an extraordinary power.

Lex Fridman 1:46:13 But, uh, they also have, because of that, the leverage, just one human to another, they have more leverage to be an asshole and to show contempt to you.

Randall Kennedy 1:46:21 They certainly do.

Lex Fridman 1:46:21 Uh, to be, to be the lesser, to lean into the lesser aspects of their nature, as all humans can. Just to be an asshole, to show contempt. You had a bad day, they have the f- the more freedom to do that.

Randall Kennedy 1:46:35 Yes, and that's why, that's why, uh, police officers are very important. I recognize, I mean, I, I, you know, I know police officers. They have a very difficult job, uh, a very important job, very important. Again, remember what I s- talked about under protection. I want the police to protect me. I want the police to protect me from the rapist, the robber. So I, you know, uh, th- the police, I'm with the police. We need good policing. We, but we need good policing. And for good policing, we need accountability. And one of the scandals, one of the just absolute scandals of American law is the extent to which the police are not held accountable! It's absolutely remarkable! The de- the degree to which American law fails to properly hold police accountable. They have an important job, a difficult job. I want them to be very well paid. A- as far as I'm concerned, you know, we should be, p- police should make more money. Uh, they should be, given, given the importance of what they do, they should have more respect, more prestige, more money. With all of that, they should be held accountable. And the way things are now, they're not held accountable. And every day, we see the consequences in our newspapers or just, you know, talking with people.

Lex Fridman 1:48:17 So what do you make of the different perspective on this, uh, from to, to bring up a person that I'll probably speak with, Heather Mac Donald.

Randall Kennedy 1:48:26 Mm-hmm.

Lex Fridman 1:48:27 Who wrote, uh, a book called War on Cops. And, uh, will often bring up the stuff that does show up in the data, uh, to show the disproportionate amount of homicides committed by African Americans.

Randall Kennedy 1:48:42 Mm-hmm.

Lex Fridman 1:48:42 And, uh, will also justify racial profiling on that basis-

Randall Kennedy 1:48:46 Mm-hmm.

Lex Fridman 1:48:46 ... in stop and frisk programs. And will also bring up things like, uh, the Ferguson effect, uh, saying that because of this pushbacks- pushback, and, uh, all the stuff we've been saying about police, uh, the, in those areas, the police will step back and crime will increase.

Randall Kennedy 1:49:06 Mm-hmm. I was in one debate with her. And one of the things that I said is, it was a debate that was, that was sponsored by the Federalist Society, conservative legal group. L- you know, these were law, conservative law students at, at Harvard Law School. We had a, she made a presentation and they asked me to respond. And one of the things that I said was, "When we're talking about the police, I'm, um, I'm disappointed with the, uh, reaction of some of my conservative colleagues." And I would consider her to be one of my conservative colleagues. Because what are the, sort of the, what are some of the-... the important precepts of conservatives. One very important precept of conservatives, limited government, limited government. You know, what do conservatives talk about? The tendency of government to overreach itself and