Rick Rubin: Legendary Music Producer | Lex Fridman Podcast #275

Rick Rubin 0:00 ... there are no right answers for anything involved in art. It's, we're, we're all trying experiments to find a way. And even for the things that I work on, I don't have a set way that I do anything. Every, I come to every project blank.

Lex Fridman 0:14 Maybe you're just a meat vehicle, and you're channeling ideas from somewhere else.

Rick Rubin 0:18 I believe we know close to nothing, close to nothing, about anything. If we embrace that not knowing, we'll have a healthier experience going through life.

Lex Fridman 0:34 The following is a conversation with Rick Rubin, one of the greatest music producers of all time, known for bringing the best out of anyone he works with, no matter the genre of music or even the medium of art, or just the medium of creating something beautiful in this world. And the list of musicians he produced includes many, many, many of the greats over the past 40 years, including the Beastie Boys, Eminem, Metallica, LL Cool J, Kanye West, Slayer, Tom Petty, Johnny Cash, Dixie Chicks, Aerosmith, Adele, Danzig, Red Hot Chili Peppers, System of a Down, Jay-Z, Black Sabbath. I can keep going for a very long time here. Most importantly, Rick is just an amazing human being. We became fast friends, which is surreal to say and is just an incredible honor. I felt truly heard as a person when I spent the day with him eating some delicious Texas barbecue, talking about life, about music, about art, about beauty. This was a conversation, an experience I'll never forget. This is the Lex Fridman Podcast. To support it, please check out our sponsors in the description. And now, dear friends, here's Rick Rubin.

Lex Fridman 1:52 Are you nervous?

Rick Rubin 1:53 Not shaky, but I would say I feel, uh, uneasy. And I feel like the sooner we start talking, the more relaxed we'll get.

Lex Fridman 2:01 Yeah. Or maybe we should sit in this moment and enjoy the nervousness of it. Let me start with Nietzsche. He said, "Without music, life would be a mistake." What do you think he means by that? Let's talk some philosophy. Let's try to analyze Friedrich Nietzsche from a century ago.

Rick Rubin 2:22 It seems like music has the ability to bring us so much, uh, depth in our soul that's hard to access any other way. And without it, there would be a, a loss beyond, beyond the pleasure of it. Um, feels like it's a window into something else.

Lex Fridman 2:45 Something that no other medium can express quite the same way.

Rick Rubin 2:51 I would say n- not as automatically. Something about music c- can do it automatically. Maybe poetry or maybe certain abstract, uh, forms can get us there. But there's something about music that really can get us there quickly.

Lex Fridman 3:09 But it's also the time, the place, the history. There's something about, like, a lot of my family's still in Philly. There's something about driving through Jersey and listening to B- Bruce Springsteen. And then it just, I'll get, like, emotional (laughs) . Like, uh, listening to, like, I'm On Fire that, like, uh, one o- o- one of my favorite Bruce Springsteen songs. There's a, there's a, the, there's a haunting kinda strumming to it. Uh, it's not a strumming. It, it's, it's actually picked. It has a country feel to it, almost like a Johnny Cash feel, actually. And it, I don't know, makes me feel... So, for people who don't know I'm On Fire, that song is, I guess, a love song to a woman that you can't have because she's married or she's with somebody else, which, I guess, is quite a lot of love songs. But there's something about the haunting nature of the guitar. And then it has to be driving through Jersey. And I feel like everyone has fallen in love with a Jersey girl at one point in their life (laughs) . I don't know if that's true for e- for everybody. But I f- I feel like that. I haven't either, but I just feel-

Rick Rubin 4:24 (laughs)

Lex Fridman 4:24 ... like that. I feel, there's something about Bruce Springsteen that's like, "Yeah, I've been there." I, you know, um... And that just takes you to a place of emotion that you just, (breathes deeply) that, that captures love, that captures longing, that captures the, the heartbreak of just the way time flows in life and the fact that it's finite and just all of that in a single s- single simple song. Like, I, what else can capture that?

Rick Rubin 4:49 Yeah, I don't know. Um, but it, but it's true that, uh, there's a connection both between time and place in music. And I, certain music, growing up on the East Coast, didn't really resonate with me until I spent time on the West Coast, Eagles being an example. When I lived in New York, the Eagles didn't really speak to me. ZZ Top didn't really speak to me. And then when I started spending time in California and driving through Laurel Canyon, all of a sudden the music of the Eagles felt r- r- appropriate somehow. And I started listening to it more.

Lex Fridman 5:23 Got it. So, not until you went out West can you understand the sounds of the West. So, it's really like New York has a sound. Uh, what other places have a sound in the United States?

Rick Rubin 5:34 I, I think every place does. A- a- a- and that said, sometimes we can get an experience through music of a place, like, we can resonate with the music and not understand why. And then maybe when we go to the place where it was created, it's almost like we have a knowingness of that place. It's not a strange place anymore.

Lex Fridman 5:55 Yeah. Stevie Ray Vaughan with blues and T- Texas blues.

Rick Rubin 5:58 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 5:59 You can just listen to Texas Flood and just-Again, there's- there's, like, a woman you're missing, a broken heart, and somehow that connects you to- to the place. The Eagles, what song of the Eagles connects with you? Are we talking about like, uh, Take It Easy or are we-

Rick Rubin 6:16 I think Take It Easy.

Lex Fridman 6:16 ... talking more like Hotel California?

Rick Rubin 6:18 I'm thinking Take It Easy but- but both are great.

Lex Fridman 6:22 Yeah. There's certain songs when I started learning guitar when I was young that's like, "I would like to be the kind of person that not only knows how to play this song but understands this song." And like, have that song be something I played 20 years ago (laughs) and I've lived with that song for a while. Like, Hotel California is- is an example. The- obviously there's the solo but there's also the soulfulness of the lyrics, which I still don't understand, and it could be about anything. And as you get older, I feel like the meaning of the song could be anything.

Rick Rubin 6:56 Yeah. I think that's true. I think that's the beauty of them. I think when the person wrote them, they may have had one interpretation, um, but it's not contingent on us getting that interpretation to like it or resonate with it or feel it. In some ways the best, uh, the best art is open enough where the artist gets to have their experience when they make it and then the audience gets to have their experience when they listen and they don't have to be the same.

Lex Fridman 7:26 And then it connects thousands or millions of people together. There's a- there's a togetherness of music when you sh- share that music, when you're listening to stuff together, like in a car. First of all, the car is a sacred place. So I work in part on autonomous vehicles a- and- and you start to think, "Well, what are the things you lose when the car stops being the central part of American life?" Um, the car ownership. It just feels like the car, when you're alone, it's like a therapist thing session because you get angry at oth- other humans. You get to- to... And then you get to s- like sit in your own anger and emotion. You get to listen to the song on a long road trip and- and remember, like run through your memories, the heartbreak. Uh, I don't know, the one that got away but also like the beautiful moments. All of it. Yeah. And all that in the car (laughs) .

Rick Rubin 8:28 Yeah. Driving also serves another purpose in... It's a- it's one of the things that we can do that we have to pay attention enough not to crash but typically can essentially run on autopilot enough where we could be thinking about something else or concentrating on something else. And the difference between concentrating on something or trying to solve a problem when you're solely trying to solve a problem versus when you have some little task that's keeping you occupied, I find if I have some slight oc- something slight to take care of it, frees a more creative side of my mind to better solve problems.

Lex Fridman 9:15 You know, I'm kind of jealous of people that found that in painting, for example. They'll be drawing or painting and listening to... So that- that's the small task you do. You're coloring in the lines. It's like this gentle, peaceful, slow process that requires just a small fraction of your mind and then you can listen. Some people listen to podcasts that way. Some people listen to music that way.

Rick Rubin 9:38 Mm-hmm.

Lex Fridman 9:39 Yeah. Yeah, so-

Rick Rubin 9:40 How do you do it? How do you free your mind?

Lex Fridman 9:47 Running is one of them. Uh, there's a process so that most freeing of the mind for me has to go through a process of a bit of pain for a bit. So doing something difficult, uh, so it's like a- a- a airplane taking off or something. So I have to... Like, for example, running, the first few miles would just be just- just first of all the physical aspect which is like, "Ah, you're so fat. You're out of shape. You're this, this is, this is getting old." This, that. Okay, that slowly dissipates and then the demons come in who are like, "You should be... You should be getting this and that and this done. You haven't gotten it done. You're, like, breaking promises." All those kind of voices coming in. And after that, maybe mile four, it's like, "Fuck it." You just- you just run. Run with the wind at a very slow pace, but with the wind, and then- and then you could think. So it's, uh, the- the footsteps, the physical activity, and then you can deeply think about stuff. Ideas, sort of design, whether it's program design stuff or ver- like, high-level life decisions, all those kinds of things. I would say, uh, running. I used to build bridges from toothpicks. That used to be a thing. It's an engineering... I- I guess some people, like, uh, glue together airplanes and stuff like that.

Rick Rubin 11:12 Mm-hmm.

Lex Fridman 11:13 But the bridges, it's such deeply honest work because at the end of it you're gonna have to test that bridge and you're gonna see how good your work was. The little details but also the big picture.

Rick Rubin 11:26 Do you use glue or no?

Lex Fridman 11:28 Yeah. Use glue. Glue. So it's not pure physics. It's- it's- it's, uh, materials engineering too 'cause, uh, the way you want to do it is you actually split the wood as thin as possible and then glue it back together 'cause the glue is really, uh, strong, except for the arches and things like that. So you're building arch bridges which is a whole nother skill 'cause you have to bend the wood. And it's so cool 'cause the thing can hold thousands of times its weight, and then you get to watch it explode, uh, at a certain point.... from all the pressure, and when you do a really good job, it doesn't explode in a, um, kinda ... some weak point that you didn't anticipate just kinda starts cracking. It ... Everything cracks. Everything explodes. It's just pieces fly everywhere. A- and it's literally hundreds of hours of work just explode in front of you, and that's, uh, that's a metaphor for life maybe, and it's all for nothing. (laughs)

Rick Rubin 12:31 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 12:32 Except for the journey that you took to get there, and, uh, no one understands. Speaking of which, back to Nietzsche. These questions are ridiculous, so you're gonna have to, (laughs) you're gonna have to try to figure out what the, what the heck I'm trying to do here. So, Nietzsche also said a line I love, which is,

Lex Fridman 12:53 "And those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music." Do you, Rick Rubin, ever feel crazy or maybe, maybe you're the one who's sane and everybody else is crazy? You know that the dancing, the joy of the music, of just feeling the music and everybody else just doesn't understand, and this doesn't have to be literally about music. This is about art-

Rick Rubin 13:19 Yeah. Yeah.

Lex Fridman 13:19 ... about creation.

Rick Rubin 13:20 Yeah. I would say I feel, um, different, and it's hard to say if like which side of the equation is crazy, you know?

Lex Fridman 13:33 Did you f- ever find a group of people that you get that get you?

Rick Rubin 13:39 Yes.

Lex Fridman 13:39 Is, is that what producing is essentially is you try to find the moments when you just get each other?

Rick Rubin 13:45 No. Um, I would say there definitely, uh ... certain artists with certain temperaments when you're around them, it feels like you can finish each other's sentences, you know, just see the world the same way, comedians as well. Um-

Lex Fridman 14:07 And that's not essential for the t- the two of you together creating something special?

Rick Rubin 14:14 No. No.

Lex Fridman 14:16 So, it could be a tension too?

Rick Rubin 14:18 It could be anyth- it could be any ... There's no rules. It's, um, it'd be like a ... think of it like a coach. A coach could-

Lex Fridman 14:25 Right.

Rick Rubin 14:25 ... uh, a coach could bring their, what they have to bring to any talented individual and, you know, help them find their way, um, and sometimes, it's the right, you know, the right coach for the right athlete really works, and other times, there's a mismatch.

Lex Fridman 14:44 Have you seen the movie Whiplash?

Rick Rubin 14:46 I did. I saw it when it came out, so I don't really remember it well, but I did see it.

Lex Fridman 14:49 So, there's a coach type of figure-

Rick Rubin 14:51 Yes.

Lex Fridman 14:52 ... who is pushing a drummer to create, to grow as a musician, but also to create something special. I don't know if it's even special music skill-wise. It's a special moment.

Rick Rubin 15:03 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 15:04 I don't know what he's trying to create. Uh, from one perspective, it's just an abusive, a person who selfishly gets off on being abusive to those he's with, but from another perspective, the way I saw that movie, is it's just the two right humans finding each other at the right moment in life and risking destroying each other in the process but maybe something beautiful will come of it. Y- y- do you think, uh, that's a toxic relationship? (laughs) Or is there ... Does some of that movie resonate with you as that sometimes is required to create art, that, th- that kind of suffering?

Rick Rubin 15:43 Yeah. It doesn't. It ... Well, there's suffering involved, but not that kinda suffering. Um, n- not for me.

Lex Fridman 15:50 Okay.

Rick Rubin 15:50 There's some, there's some people who that's their process, and that's whatever works, you know? There's no, there are no right answers for anything involved in art. It's we're, we're all trying experiments to find a way, and even for the things that I work on, I don't have a set way that I do anything. Every ... I come to every project blank, and, um, see ... I really listen to what the artist plays and says, and through what they're, through what they explain they wanna do, um, w- help find the best way to get there. Um, d- was it implicit in the movie that the, uh, the mean teacher liked being a mean teacher? You s- you said the way you described it was that he got off on treating people this way. Do we know that to be the case?

Lex Fridman 16:44 No.

Rick Rubin 16:44 I don't remember that in the movie.

Lex Fridman 16:45 But we sometimes project that onto people, people who are really rough on students. You start to think, well, maybe, um, maybe that is fundamentally who they are, and if it's fundamentally who they are, that there must be some pleasure in it or it's an addiction of some sort. But it could be also a deliberate choice made by the teacher.

Rick Rubin 17:14 It also could be a lineage, like, you know, in, in Zen tradition, there are sort of the, the, the, the mean rishis who if you do something wrong take a physical action, and, um, it, it's just in the lineage it's considered that's how you teach. Um, I, I didn't come from that lineage, so I'm, I'm much more of a ... I, I feel like it's more of a collaboration between people working together to make the best thing. It's not a, it's not a boss-slave relationship at all. It's much more of a let's find our way, and, and we agree at the beginning of the process (clears throat) that if either of us, or a- any of us, don't like what's happening, we say it, and the goal is to keep working 'til we get to a point where we, we're all really happy with it.It's like, if, if we make something that an artist likes and I don't like, or if, that I like and they don't like, we haven't gone far enough.

Lex Fridman 18:16 Mm-hmm. In terms of lineage, the ones that seek destruction and the ones that seek happiness all come from the same lineage. We all came from fish, so somewhere in you, deep down, there, there's the other stuff too. It's just that you haven't been, uh... Yet, by the way, 'cause you said every new project, including maybe starting (laughs) today, uh, is an opportunity to channel, to plug into something, uh, that was always there and you haven't gotten a chance to plug into. You mentioned listening. How do you listen to a person? How do you hear a person when you first come in, like, we just met, what's the analysis happening? But, I mean, with me, it's one thing. I'm an artist of sorts. I program and I, I... I'm just, I'm human, I guess (laughs) . I guess we're all creating art. How do you see, like, how do I bring out... So for people who don't know, um, I mean, a lot, obviously everyone knows that you've produced some of the greatest records ever, but I th- the way I see that is you just brought out the best in, in a lot of interesting artists. And so in order to bring out the best in them, you have to understand them, you have to hear the music of their soul. Hopefully I'm not being too romantic here, but just, like, is there something you can say of how difficult that is? If there's a process, if there's tricks, if it's luck?

Rick Rubin 19:52 Um, I think it s- it starts with this, again, coming in blank, like, um, not having any preconceived ideas, being open, and really listening, listening and not thinking about what you're gonna say next or what your opinion is, or any, you know, not ha- basically being a recorder and just hearing what comes in. And then once you hear what comes in, processing that information, and, um, trying our best to do that without any of the beliefs that we might have to impact what that is.

Lex Fridman 20:27 Mm-hmm.

Rick Rubin 20:28 Uh, you know, I... If I, if I ask you a question, I don't wanna hear what... I don't wanna listen to you and have any reaction happening when you're speaking. I wanna be as neutral as possible. For me, for, to, to be... My goal is, is, is not to form an opinion. It's to understand. So if anything, I would draw you out further and just ask questions to really understand, and if you say, or, or if you say something that I, um, that somehow, uh, triggers me in a way that, that's a, you know, "I wonder how he came to that," I would a- I would, I wouldn't challenge you. I would ask, like, uh, "How did you find that?" You know, "How did you get to that place?"

Lex Fridman 21:14 From a place of curiosity, you would try to figure out what was gonna pos-

Rick Rubin 21:17 Yeah, I wanna understand who the person is. And through questioning, we can usually get there, or through just spending time together, y- you find out who the person is.

Lex Fridman 21:29 What about finding out and figuring out how to then take the next steps of bringing out the best in them? Like, uh, is it just trial and error? "Let, let's try this."

Rick Rubin 21:41 It's definitely trial and error. It's always trial and error.

Lex Fridman 21:45 Are you afraid of making a mistake? Like, "Let's, let's add this instrument, let's remove this instrument."

Rick Rubin 21:50 Let's try it.

Lex Fridman 21:50 "Let's add this line, let's remove this line."

Rick Rubin 21:52 Let's try. And let's, let's be open. It's one of the, one of the, uh, ru- there... We don't really have rules, but one of the agreements in the studio is any idea that anyone has, we'll always demonstrate it. We'll always try it, because I can describe to you an idea, and you can think, "That's a terrible idea, let's not do that." And then I can play you the idea, and then you can say, "Oh, that's really good." And it's completely different, 'cause we... When we hear, when we're told something, we have to imagine what that is.

Lex Fridman 22:28 Mm-hmm.

Rick Rubin 22:28 And the way you see something and imagine it, and the way I see something and imagine it are completely different.

Lex Fridman 22:33 So you say a thing, and now there's two humans that play that thing in their mind differently, in their imagination, and then there's a cool creative step, and when you actually do it to see how it differs in the imagination, and then the difference or the commonality will be, like, an exciting little discovery together.

Rick Rubin 22:52 Well, so many, so many, uh, groups of people making things together in a room, one person will suggest something and someone else in the room say, "Uh, that, that doesn't sound like a good idea. Let's not do that," and then they move on. Uh, the, the testing of every idea is really important, and that's how you get to see, "Oh, that's not at all what I thought it was gonna be." Happens to me all the time. I, I know because someone will suggest, "Why don't we do it like this?" And I'll think, "That sounds bad." And then I'll think, "Okay, let's try it." And then we hear it, and then, you know, eight times out of ten, it's nothing like I imagined and great.

Lex Fridman 23:28 And you try not to have an ego about th- the fact that you thought it was not a good idea in your head. (laughs)

Rick Rubin 23:33 Th- there can't be any ego in this. It doesn't, uh... If, if, if everyone's there with the purpose of making the best thing we can, there's nothing else. You know, there are no, um... There can't be any boundaries to that.

Lex Fridman 23:53 So there's a moment I saw with... I know you don't love talking about previous things you've done, but it's cool to dive in there every once in a while.

Rick Rubin 24:02 I don't mind. I'm, I'm fine to talk about anything.

Lex Fridman 24:03 Just, just sample it. Uh, anything?

Rick Rubin 24:06 We'll see.

Lex Fridman 24:07 Well, I have, I have this pain I gotta talk... No, I'm just kidding. (laughs)

Rick Rubin 24:11 (laughs)

Lex Fridman 24:11 Uh, I'll, I'll think of something ridiculous that would, that would make you change your mind.Um, you,

Lex Fridman 24:16 you mention, uh, I saw a video of you with Jay-Z, working on 99 Problems, where you suggested acapella, opening the, uh, the song with acapella. Just no, no instruments, just voice. That, to me, I mean, that's one of the characteristics of the things, uh, of the ways you've brought out the best in artists, is doing less, sort of the tending towards simplicity in some kind of way. So that, that, that choice of acapella is really interesting 'cause I, I can see a lot of people think that that's a bad idea. But it turned out to be a really powerful idea. Can you maybe talk about the simplicity? How to find simplicity? Why you find simplicity's beautiful? It does appear to be beautiful. What is that?

Rick Rubin 25:01 Yeah, I don't know where it comes from. It, it has been with me from the beginning of my work. The very first, um, album I ever produced, the credit I took was "reduced by me" instead of "produced by me," um, for that reason. Like, I, I like the idea of getting to the essential, and I, I have a better idea now that I've done it for a while. But at the time, it was purely an instinctual thing. And part of it is the sonic. There's a sonic benefit, which is, the less elements you have, uh, you can hear each of the ones that are there, and they can sound better. And the less there are, the more, um, the more space they could have around them and the more you can hear their personality. If you were to record (clears throat) 10 people playing the same guitar part, and you listen to it, it would sound like guitar. And if you play... Record one person playing a guitar part, it sounds like a person playing the guitar. It's different than just guitar. And the... Uh, often in the studio, the idea of building upon things and adding, adding layers to thicken, to make it sound bigger, sometimes, um, the more things you add, the smaller it gets. So it's a ca- it's a... A lot of it is counterintuitive until you, just in practice, see what, what works.

Lex Fridman 26:30 So try it. So try removing stuff until it's just right. It's the Einstein thing, make it, uh, make it as simple as possible, but not simpler. That's such a f- like finding a stopping place, just keep chopping away and chopping away.

Rick Rubin 26:47 Yeah. There's something we, we also like to do called the ruthless edit, which is, let's say you're at a point where, (clears throat) it can work for anything, but I'll give you the example with an album. Um, we've recorded 25 songs. We think the album's gonna have 10. Instead of picking our favorite 10, we limit it to, what are the five or six that we can't live without? So going past even the goal to get to the real, like, heart of it, and then see, okay, we have these five or six that we can't live without, now, what would we add to that that makes it better and not worse? And, um, it's just a, it, it, it puts you in a different frame when you start with building instead of removing.

Lex Fridman 27:42 And you might find that there's nothing you need to add.

Rick Rubin 27:45 Sometimes. Sometimes something happens when you get to the real essence, then when you start adding things back, it becomes clear that it was just supposed to be this, this tight little thing.

Lex Fridman 28:00 Can I ask you like a therapy session question? So I'd li- I'd like... You, you mentioned somewhere that one way to kind of think about music to get into music is to look at the top like 100 albums of all time and just go down the list and like just take it all in like one piece of artwork. So I, I was doing that for a while. It's, it's a cool experiment 'cause unfortunately, I have to admit, I've gotten lazy and stopped taking in albums as albums. Um, and I looked at one interesting top 100 list, top 500 actually, which is, uh, put together by Rolling Stone, and they put... This is the therapy session part, and this has to do with simplicity too. They put Marvin Gaye's What's Going On at number one. Spoiler alert. So I'd like to, uh, maybe get your opinion on that choice. The, the reason Marvin Gaye is really interesting, um, it actually would be cool to, to play what's going on in a second, but, uh, when you just listen to his like acapella, just listen to his voice, it is really good. Like people... It makes me wonder if it's possible to pull off like most of his songs with no instruments. Like, in many parts, there's so much soul in just, uh, Mercy Mercy Me, What's Going On. There are so many songs that you could just be like, "I wonder if you could just like, just go raw," or maybe in parts, or maybe do what you did with Jay-Z, just open up with nothing. Anyway, there's something so powerful to a great soulful voice. Do you mind if I play it real quick?

Rick Rubin 29:37 No, please.

Lex Fridman 29:38 What's Going On? This is probably one of my favorite songs. I mean, it's up there.

Narrator 29:43 Hey, what's happening? Hey brother, what's up? Hey, how you doing? Oh yeah, brother, let's stop it right now. What's happening? What's happening? Yeah. Mother, mother.

Lex Fridman 30:00 That voice.

Narrator 30:02 Ooh, there's too many of you crying. Brother, brother, brother. Ooh, there's far too many of you dying.

Lex Fridman 30:14 With some just very subtle backing vocals.

Narrator 30:17 You know...

Lex Fridman 30:23 (laughs)

Narrator 30:23 ... here today. Yeah. Father, father.

Lex Fridman 30:30 This one hurts.

Narrator 30:31 We don't need to escalate.

Lex Fridman 30:33 "Father, father, we don't need to escalate."

Narrator 30:36 You see, war is not the answer. For only love can conquer hate.

Rick Rubin 30:44 I wonder who the father he's talking about is.

Lex Fridman 30:47 Oh, that's interesting. I mean, I ab- so for people who don't know, his, his own father ended up, uh, killing Marvin Gaye.

Rick Rubin 30:55 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 30:57 I mean, that one is really pain- I mean, for a lot of people, your relationship with your father, your mother, I mean, there's different dynamics, but there's a, it's, it's almost like part of life is resolving some kind of complex puzzle you have with the people you love and the people close to you, or the people who are not there. All those kinds of things. But there's so much pain in that, "We don't need to escalate, father, father." I never thought if it's... I always thought it's his father directly.

Rick Rubin 31:22 Yeah, I don't get that. It could be, but I, I don't, I feel like it's a more, um, um, masculine spirituality.

Lex Fridman 31:33 Like a father figure, or just broadly some kind of spirituality?

Rick Rubin 31:37 It could be like God. Father God, Mother God. You know? Like, it could be. I don't know.

Lex Fridman 31:44 But there's, there's so much... It's like both hope and melancholy.

Rick Rubin 31:49 You're saying war is not the answer. It's like, you, you don't tell your father, "War is not..." Your, your blood father, "War is not the answer." It's a strange conversation. It's a, it's a bigger conversation than a personal.

Lex Fridman 32:01 Don't you think it feels like war if one is personal? What's the difference between... (laughs) Is, war is personal too. It's only leaders think about war in a geopolitical sense.

Rick Rubin 32:14 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 32:14 When people that fight wars, you lose your brothers, you lose... I mean, you, death is just right there.

Rick Rubin 32:21 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 32:21 So it might feel just like that. But yeah, there is a dance between like the personal and like talking to the entirety of the society. It's like John Lennon, Imagine. Like, also a song where... Is that, is that hopeful? Is that cynical? Is it like melancholy? Like heartbroken? Like, you, you hope, you wish things would be a certain way and they're not. Yeah, I don't know. I don't know if John Lennon's giving up on the world in Imagine.

Rick Rubin 32:52 Yeah, I don't know. No, it's a, it's an interesting question. There's another, uh, John Lennon lyric, um, in... Let me think of what it is. Take me a second. And different songs keep coming into my head.

Lex Fridman 33:11 (laughs)

Rick Rubin 33:11 (laughs) It's not the one that I'm looking for.

Lex Fridman 33:12 And you keep pressing next.

Rick Rubin 33:14 Um... Across the Universe. Um. "Nothing's gonna change my world." And when I hear that, I hear it as hopeless. (laughs)

Lex Fridman 33:32 (laughs)

Rick Rubin 33:32 But I don't think, I don't believe that that's... Well, it may be how he meant it, but I don't think that's how it's normally taken.

Lex Fridman 33:43 And it's also the taker is important. I'm generally optimistic and hopeful so I, I, I always like look for the hope in the... And actually the harshest love, uh, heartbreak songs (laughs) are always somehow hopeful to me. That's a love song. Uh, to, to me like a song about losing love is, is a song about the great capacity for love in the human heart. That's what I hear.

Rick Rubin 34:08 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 34:08 So to me, losing love is exciting.

Rick Rubin 34:11 (laughs)

Lex Fridman 34:12 'Cause it's like, that means you really cared. That means you felt something and you feel something, you can sit in that pain, and that pain is a reminder of what it means to be human. When you're that, um, what is it? Uh, we were just listening, uh, "The only man who could ever reach me was the son of a preacher man." So it's the, um, it's like that early love or something, or partially sexual or whatever. That's not as interesting to me. It's fun, it's great, but it's that heartbreak, that's the reminder that it can go deep. Although that's a damn good song.

Rick Rubin 34:43 Have you ever heard the, uh, Detroit Mix of the Marvin Gaye album?

Lex Fridman 34:48 No.

Rick Rubin 34:50 Call it up.

Lex Fridman 34:51 (laughs) How, how-

Rick Rubin 34:52 By, by far better. Mind-blowing. I just heard it recently. It blew my mind.

Narrator 34:59 (saxophone playing)

Lex Fridman 35:03 Oh, wow. Reverb. Distant.

Narrator 35:08 Mother, mother.

Lex Fridman 35:11 Interesting.

Narrator 35:11 There's too many of you crying. Brother, brother, brother. There's far too many of you dying.

Lex Fridman 35:24 Feels like it's all around the room more.

Narrator 35:26 You know we've got to find a way. To bring some lovin' here today. Yeah. Father, father.

Rick Rubin 35:37 More voices.

Lex Fridman 35:38 More voices.

Narrator 35:40 We don't need to escalate.

Lex Fridman 35:43 (laughs) Father.

Narrator 35:45 You see, war is not the answer. For only love can conquer hate.

Lex Fridman 35:51 He's layering his own vocals on top.

Narrator 35:54 You know we've got to find a way. To bring some lovin' here today. Oh.

Lex Fridman 36:05 (laughs)

Narrator 36:05 Picket lines (sister) . Picket signs (sister) .

Lex Fridman 36:07 Feels like there's multiple people singing.

Rick Rubin 36:09 Yeah.

Narrator 36:09 Don't punish me (sister) with brutality (sister) . Talk to me (sister) , so you can see (sister) . Oh, what's going on (what's going on) .

Lex Fridman 36:21 Yeah, that was beautiful.

Rick Rubin 36:22 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 36:22 Uh-

Rick Rubin 36:23 Seems to have more energy. If you, if you listen to the whole album, even, even though you just said you don't listen to albums anymore...

Lex Fridman 36:29 (laughs)

Rick Rubin 36:29 ... the Detroit Mix of the whole album changes the album a lot.

Lex Fridman 36:34 I mean, that, that felt, uh... So that's the opposite of a cappella, I would say.

Rick Rubin 36:38 Yes.

Lex Fridman 36:39 'Cause it's sa- it's, it, um... There's layers, there's, um... And, and it may be, I don't know if you remember, but if memory serves me, uh, correct here, he produces his own album here. Marvin Gaye was the producer on this, I believe.

Rick Rubin 36:56 I believe so. And this one sounds more like it's a get-together. And the whole album sounds more like a get-together, where it's a group of people in a room playing music together. Whereas the album version sounds more like an out- like a recording. This sounds less like a recording and a little more like a party.

Lex Fridman 37:15 Now, you had a series of conversations with Paul McCartney, which is amazing, that people should, should watch. But is, is there, this is continuing our therapy session, is there a case to be made that, uh, What's Going On is number one album above the Beatles', uh, White Album or Abbey Road, above Pet Sounds? Can you steel man each case?

Rick Rubin 37:37 There's, there's always a case. I mean, there's always a case. Every, there's no, uh... I- i- in reality, in art, there is no, um, there's no metric that makes sense. So, um, you could put numbers on things, but it's like, is this apple better than this peach? Like, it's not really a fair comparison.

Lex Fridman 37:59 But if you just had to keep one to represent the human species, that's the way I think (laughs) to the aliens.

Rick Rubin 38:05 But also, I think it's a very personal decision. I don't, I think you can make, you can make your choice to represent the human species, and I'll make mine, you know?

Lex Fridman 38:13 Well, I would pick the Beatles over the, uh, Beach Boys, so that's my-

Rick Rubin 38:17 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 38:17 ... if I became dictator of the world and was talking to the aliens. But I don't know the full historical context to the impact of the music. I don't know if that's something to consider, like this kind of thought experiment of imagine what it was like back then to create, to go into the studio, to, to do such interesting work in the studio, uh, as opposed to, like, listening to just this as a pop song almost, uh, from... 'Cause I've never been able to understand, uh, Beach Boys' God Only Knows.

Rick Rubin 38:51 The song, God Only Knows?

Lex Fridman 38:53 God Only Knows, but all of it, the, the album, the, uh, Pet Sounds, just-

Rick Rubin 38:56 In My Room?

Lex Fridman 38:57 Was, uh, In My Room?

Rick Rubin 39:00 That song?

Lex Fridman 39:01 Um, is, is that, well, what's your favorite on the album? That, not your favorite.

Rick Rubin 39:04 On the Pet Sounds album?

Lex Fridman 39:06 Pet Sounds.

Rick Rubin 39:06 Um, the opening track.

Lex Fridman 39:09 Do you mind if I play it?

Rick Rubin 39:10 Please.

Lex Fridman 39:13 It's, it's, it's too fun.

Rick Rubin 39:17 That's part of their trip, though.

Lex Fridman 39:19 The, you, um, you open the heart with the fun?

Rick Rubin 39:25 It's possible.

Lex Fridman 39:28 Original mono and stereo mix versions. I don't know what that-

Rick Rubin 39:32 Mm-hmm. What's the opening song? Wouldn't It Be Nice?

Lex Fridman 39:34 Wouldn't It Be Nice.

Rick Rubin 39:35 Yeah, that's the song.

Narrator 39:45 Wouldn't it be nice if we were older? Then we wouldn't have to wait so long. And wouldn't it be nice to live together. In the kind of world where we belong. No one's gonna make it that much better. When we can say goodnight and stay together.

Lex Fridman 40:07 This part is good, yeah.

Narrator 40:09 When we can say goodnight and stay together.

Lex Fridman 40:11 And then back to fun.

Narrator 40:12 Wouldn't it be nice if we were older?

Rick Rubin 40:13 Yeah, that we could say goodnight and stay together. Wouldn't that be nice?

Narrator 40:17 Then we wouldn't have to wait so long.

Lex Fridman 40:17 Wouldn't it be nice to wake up together?

Narrator 40:19 And then whatever happens, we'll endure it.

Lex Fridman 40:19 But we're not. There's heartbreak in this one, too (laughs) .

Rick Rubin 40:24 Right.

Lex Fridman 40:24 Still, to me, like George Harrison, like, um, uh, is that the White Album? While, While My Guitar Gently Weeps? I mean, that, um... With the Beatles, it's so hard to, depending on the day, I'll, I'll, I'll say a very different song that's my favorite song, but I often return to While My Guitar Gently Weeps as my favorite song.

Rick Rubin 40:45 Spectacular. Spectacular.

Lex Fridman 40:46 And anything George Harrison, honestly. Something, Something in the Way She Moves. The be-... I, what would you classify that? There's like several Beatles songs, uh, categories of Beatles songs. So the, tho- that's like the melancholy love songs, or ballads, or something like that? Um, Yesterday, Let It Be. What's, do you have favorites?

Lex Fridman 41:08 So from your, like, how have you changed as a man, as a human being, as a musician, and music producer, ever having done that lengthy interaction with, with McCartney?

Rick Rubin 41:20 Hmm. Any time you're around someone who's such a hero, and you spend time with them and they're a human being, it helps put perspective on everything. You know, it's like-

Lex Fridman 41:33 Oh, that they're just human, that aspect.

Rick Rubin 41:34 Well, obviously. I mean, every, everyone's just human. And um... But I remember the first time I got to see Paul McCartney play live, it was in a stadium of 70,000 people, and he started playing and I started crying. And I couldn't believe I was in... Even with 70,000 people, I couldn't believe I, that this man walks the Earth-

Lex Fridman 41:54 (laughs)

Rick Rubin 41:55 ... and that I'm in the same place as him, and he's the person who wrote that and played that, and now he's here playing it for us. It's mind-blowing. That's the voice.

Lex Fridman 42:08 That's the g-... I-

Rick Rubin 42:09 It's overwhelming.

Lex Fridman 42:11 Is it inspiring or is it, um... Like, 'cause sometimes when you have, and I've gotten the chance to m-... I mean, I love people in general, like every, every person is fascinating to me. But yeah, when you've been a fan for a long time and you meet a person, I'll sort of, uh, I'll just remove present company. Is, you, um... It's like, oh, they're just human.... so there's both. It's both inspiring that just a simple human can achieve such beautiful things, but it's also like almost wishing there were gods moving in, up around us. (laughs) It's somehow peaceful. It's just, it's more, uh, uh, comforting to know that there's, you know, um, there's bigger fish. I'm, I'm just a small fish, and then there's bigger fish, and they will take care of the ocean for us.

Rick Rubin 43:05 I think we're all capable of being big fish. I don't, I don't think that there are special people. I don't think it, it's like that.

Lex Fridman 43:14 I, I would make a case, so the, the variety of artists that you worked with and brought the best out of, it does seem that you're out of this world. So w- w- do you think you would know, like, if you're the same kinda sp- species? Maybe you're just a meat vehicle and you're channeling ideas from somewhere else.

Rick Rubin 43:41 I feel like I'm channeling ideas from somewhere else, 100%. But I think I-

Lex Fridman 43:45 Have you asked questions about where from?

Rick Rubin 43:47 I believe we all, I believe we all are though. You know, I believe we are, um, we're vehicles for information that, when it's ready to come through, it comes through. And the people who have good antennas pick up the signal. But, um, if... I'm sure you've had an experience in your life where you've had an idea for something and you've not acted on it, and eventually someone else does it.

Lex Fridman 44:13 Mm.

Rick Rubin 44:13 And it's not because they're doing it because you had the idea and they stole your idea. It's because the time has come for that idea, and if you don't do it, someone else is gonna do it.

Lex Fridman 44:22 It's being broadcast by whatever the source is.

Rick Rubin 44:24 Whatever the source is.

Lex Fridman 44:26 Uh, yeah. I, I tend to, I tend to see humans as not quite special in that way, yeah. You, it's, it's different kinds of antennas walking around listening to ideas. And ideas that are... I like the, the notion of, uh, Richard Dawkins, of memes, where it's kinda the ideas are the organisms and they're just using our brains to multiply, to, to select, to compete, to, to evolve, and... And humans, we really wanna hold onto the specialness of our body, of our mind, but it's, it's really the ideas. So if Rick Rubin was born two centuries ago, you wouldn't be a music producer. You'd be (laughs) ... Or, or, I mean maybe, but you-

Rick Rubin 45:08 Who knows?

Lex Fridman 45:08 ... you have an antenna. (laughs)

Rick Rubin 45:09 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 45:10 And if no signal's coming in, uh... Or you'd be hearing a b- potentially a different signal. Is there, um-

Rick Rubin 45:19 I think we all have our own antenna for whatever it is that we... You know, m- maybe not everyone has tuned into their antenna to see what it is that their strength in bringing through is. I'm lucky in that it found me 'cause I didn't know that it was a, I didn't even know this was a job.

Lex Fridman 45:37 I sometimes wonder, I mean, a lot of young people, a lot of people wonder, like, "What's the purpose and the, the specs of my antenna?" (laughs) "What am I put on this earth to do?" Like if, um, you know, I, I can live a thousand lives. There's so many trajectories. And imagine the greatest possible trajectory that reveals s- the, the, the most beautiful thing I can possibly create in this world, live the most beautiful way. Uh, what is that? I feel like that's a good exercise to think about, um, 'cause it's also liberating to think that you can do anything. I mean, that... Um, more and more, I, I suppose that's kind of life. It's like society is pushing conformity on you. You know, I thought I, I m- I had my own flavor of conformity I thought I'm supposed to be following. And then, uh, early on, I would say like in the late 20s, you realize, wait a minute. You don't have to tell, you don't have to do what teachers tell you to do, what parents tell you to do, what society tells you to do. You can... Like, um, I would never wear a suit if I listened to, like, my colleagues and c- community who think that the, a suit is, like, the symbol of, um, what is it? A symbol of conformity actually, which is hilarious. But, uh, it's actually a kind of rebellion, and everything else like, of that nature, doing, doing these silly podcasts, like... Um...

Rick Rubin 47:14 I, I have a question I have to ask-

Lex Fridman 47:16 Sure.

Rick Rubin 47:17 ... 'cause you brought up the suit.

Lex Fridman 47:18 Yeah.

Rick Rubin 47:19 Uh, do you wear the suit? Is this your daily uniform outside of podcasting?

Lex Fridman 47:25 So I, for the longest time it was some kind of suit. And then recently, (laughs) I mean, coinciding with going to Texas, there's a... I'm such a loner, I'm an introvert, and there's a bit of a hiding from the world when I wear other stuff. I really want to, um, to not make fame, recognition, money, all of those things a motivation at all. And the world kinda wants you to make those motivations. Uh, uh, not, not the world, but I would, I would say maybe the Western world, or maybe, uh, America, or maybe a capitalist system does. But...

Rick Rubin 48:09 That's a choice to buy into that or not.

Lex Fridman 48:12 Right. It takes a brave person, a person of character, to not buy in, and I'm, I'm like a, a, like a baby deer trying to find its legs. You don't have to buy in. 'Cause I, I love people and I think I'm kind of an idiot. And so when other people say, "Do this and do that," it, uh, there's a, there is a pressure there. It's actually very difficult to not listen necessarily to the advice of others and yet keep yourself fragile and open to the world.It's easy to be like, "I'm always right," you know, just kind of sticking your ground. But if you want to be like vulnerable, if you want to connect with people and just wear your heart on your sleeve, then you're going to listen to them. I mean, that's the double-edged sword of it. And, uh, but then again, that pain, like if you don't let it destroy you, you can grow, grow from that. Has fame affected you at all? Did you unplug from the system at some point?

Rick Rubin 49:11 Same. I- I've always been sort of removed. I, I don't feel like I'm part of any system.

Lex Fridman 49:17 Do you feel famous?

Rick Rubin 49:19 (laughs) Um, I'm aware that when I go out, people, you know, say nice things to me, which is great.

Lex Fridman 49:26 Yeah. (laughs)

Rick Rubin 49:27 (laughs) But that's about it. That's about as far as it goes.

Lex Fridman 49:29 But it doesn't affect your art, about your creativity?

Rick Rubin 49:32 It can't.

Lex Fridman 49:32 Or your thoughts? Like when you're sitting alone and thinking about the world-

Rick Rubin 49:36 It can't. It can't. It's a destructive force. The, th- the thing... The reason that you're who you are, and the reason that you're finding the success you're finding, is because you've been true to yourself to get to that stage. So to start changing that to confor- to either conform to someone else's idea of what you should be doing, it just seems like, uh, it doesn't make sense.

Lex Fridman 50:04 Do you have a sense of who you are? 'Cause I don't necessarily have a...

Rick Rubin 50:09 I don't know. I, I know that I really like making good things, and I know that I'm crazy about it in that, um, it's like an obsession, and I want things to be as good as they could be, whatever it is. And if I'm,

Rick Rubin 50:24 if I finish a music project and I have a window of time where I'm not working on music, I might be moving the furniture around in the house. You know, I'm, I'm always looking for a prod- a creative outlet to find a way to make something better. Or there was a period of time where I was in a weird corporate situation that was, uh, that didn't allow me to flourish, and I turned, I focused the creativity in on myself, and I lost a bunch of weight and changed my life. And-

Lex Fridman 50:59 So that was the kind of art, like the, you, you've gone through a whole process of losing weight, getting in shape, getting healthy. That was a kind of creative act?

Rick Rubin 51:07 It certainly was. It wasn't an intentional creative act, but I had a lot of energy.

Lex Fridman 51:12 Yeah.

Rick Rubin 51:12 And I just f- a series of events happened. I read a book. This was, uh, at the time there was my heaviest. I weighed about 318 pounds.

Lex Fridman 51:21 Yeah.

Rick Rubin 51:21 And, um, and I'd never been... I'd been sedentary my whole life, basically laying on a couch working on music. So I've never been, um, physically active in my life. And I read a book about a guy named Stu Middleman, a runner, who ran 1,000 miles in 11 days, and I thought, "Wow, I, you know, get out of breath walking to the corner, and another human being can run 1,000 miles in 11 days. I feel like I have bad information, you know? I'm do- clearly I'm doing something wrong." And, um, and I reached out to a person that Stu mentioned in the book, Phil Maffetone.

Lex Fridman 51:55 Who's a legend. I, I really appreciate him as well. His MAF 180 method too.

Rick Rubin 52:00 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 52:00 He's just such an interesting... I think he focuses on-

Rick Rubin 52:03 Heart rate, uh, training.

Lex Fridman 52:05 Heart-

Rick Rubin 52:05 And he was the first person to talk about, um, essentially a...

Lex Fridman 52:13 Low carb stuff?

Rick Rubin 52:13 Paleo.

Lex Fridman 52:14 Yeah.

Rick Rubin 52:14 Keto diet.

Lex Fridman 52:18 For a person who's healthy.

Rick Rubin 52:18 Forty y- forty years ago.

Lex Fridman 52:20 For a person who's going to be healthy, who can exercise and actually perform at an elite level. He's the first person when I, um, you know, talk about heart rate training, him and other endurance athletes he influenced, he gave me permission to, like, run slower. (laughs)

Rick Rubin 52:36 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 52:38 (laughs) It's the first time I realized, "Oh, I can run long distances if I just run slower and, and then take that seriously." And I actually fell in love with running, very much so, 'cause for me, e- everyone's different, but for me the love of running happens in the longer distances.

Rick Rubin 52:54 Yeah. Did you read Born to Run?

Lex Fridman 52:56 Mm-hmm.

Rick Rubin 52:56 Great book.

Lex Fridman 52:57 Amazing book. There is something special about running. And e- everybody has their own, their own journey with it. And even ultra-marathon running, those kinds of things. It's a, it's a, it is, like many journeys, one that can pull you in. Like you won't be the same person after. And I, I try to be deliver about making ch- deliberate about making choices after which you'll not be the same person. (laughs)

Rick Rubin 53:26 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 53:26 And so I'm nervous about like the ultra-marathon running world.

Rick Rubin 53:29 Mm-hmm.

Lex Fridman 53:31 Uh,

Lex Fridman 53:33 I have to talk to you about Johnny Cash. I, I mean, when people ask me what my favorite musical thing is of all time, um... I'm p- uh, you know, it's a very difficult question to answer of course, but I'm pretty quick, if I'm not allowed to pick anything by Tom Waits, uh... (laughs) I'm pretty quick to say, uh, Har- Hurt by Johnny Cash, the performance, the whatever you call it, whatever the heck that is.

Rick Rubin 54:07 Mm-hmm.

Lex Fridman 54:07 Because that's not just a, uh, song covered by an artist. That's a human being at the end of their life, that the rawness of that, the, um... I mean, just the, uh, there's also a music video which for a lot of people adds a lot to it. Uh, for me, just the music alone is s- I mean, the guitar, every choice on that... See, the, the few things I've heard about it, it seemed like almost accidental. I mean, like little subtle choices here and there. C- can you maybe comment on that, um...... to, to the degree... I, I think you had a huge role in sort of bringing Johnny Cash back (laughs) from, from a different part of his life. It's like bringing something out that wasn't there before, and it was, it was, it was incredible. It was a celebration of a really special musician, and, and that's totally new kind of celebration. Now, Hurt is just one of the songs that's, that's a, that's a, that's an amazing celebration of Johnny Cash. But Hurt is like at the, at the, at the peak of that. So what was that like putting that song together? Can... May- maybe, uh, it might be nice to listen to it because I freaking love that song. And as a guitarist, I just... The simplicity of it. Uh. It seems like every choice contributes to the greatness of the song.

Narrator 55:41 (guitar playing)

Lex Fridman 55:48 Simple, it's crisp, but it's dark, too.

Narrator 55:51 I hurt myself today. It's one of the greatest opening lines of any song. To see if I still feel this way.

Lex Fridman 55:59 The shape-

Rick Rubin 56:00 And there's that.

Lex Fridman 56:01 Yeah. "To see if I still feel."

Narrator 56:03 My former self.

Rick Rubin 56:03 Yeah, I'm talking about the lyrics. I don't even mean the performance. The words are...

Narrator 56:07 The only thing that's real.

Lex Fridman 56:11 (laughs)

Narrator 56:12 The needle tears a hole-

Lex Fridman 56:15 But those words out of Trent Reznor are not the same. They have a different meaning-

Rick Rubin 56:20 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 56:20 ... coming out of Johnny Cash's mouth.

Narrator 56:23 Try to kill it all away. But I remember everything. What have I become?

Rick Rubin 56:37 "What have I become?"

Narrator 56:40 My sweetest friend.

Lex Fridman 56:43 (laughs) Written probably for a young man.

Narrator 56:45 Everyone I've ever-

Rick Rubin 56:46 I think he was 20 when he wrote it. 20. Trent.

Narrator 56:48 ... known goes away in the end. And you could have it all. My empire of dirt and stone.

Lex Fridman 57:03 Anger, regret, pain.

Narrator 57:06 I will let you down. I will make you hurt.

Lex Fridman 57:18 The, the way the guitarist played, the choice of instrumental layers there, the, uh, the freedom to give him to use the voice that's, um, fading? It's not fading, it's changing. Maybe he's losing some aspects of his voice. And, and, and it's, and it's, it's almost like shaking a little bit, and it's a little bit out of tune in parts. Uh. How much of that was deliberate? How much was... Like, how do you give Johnny Cash the freedom to, to do that? How do you find that together? Is there any insights you can give?

Rick Rubin 57:59 I think it's a, it's a case almost of, like, the right... Pairing the right role with the right actor, you could say. The, the song lyrics... The, the reason we chose the song was because of the lyrics, purely about the lyrics. And at that point in time, both Johnny and I would send each other songs of possible ideas to record. And, um, that was one that I sent him and he didn't respond to initially. I sent... I would send him a C- At that time, we would burn CDs, and I would send him like CD of 20 songs or 25 songs.

Lex Fridman 58:34 (laughs)

Rick Rubin 58:35 And then... And he would send them to me, and we would-

Lex Fridman 58:36 You'd burn a CD for Johnny Cash, and you sent him, uh, of different songs of-

Rick Rubin 58:39 Of like songs to consider recording.

Lex Fridman 58:42 Yeah. (laughs)

Rick Rubin 58:43 Um, and we would send these back and forth. And then that... I had Hurt on one of the ones that I sent him, and he didn't respond. And usually, if he didn't respond, we didn't go back to it, you know?

Lex Fridman 58:56 Yeah.

Rick Rubin 58:56 And that one, I remember I sent it again, and I put it first on the next (laughs) , on the next CD. And, um, and when, when we spoke about when he listened to the CD again, he didn't respond. I said, "Check out that first song, and I really feel like that one could be good."

Lex Fridman 59:11 What did you see in that song, 'cause I-

Rick Rubin 59:12 It's the lyrics. It's the lyrics. It-

Lex Fridman 59:15 'Cause I feel like nobody... There's very few people in the world that would see these lyrics in Johnny Cash's mouth and think this is a good idea, including Trent Reznor.

Rick Rubin 59:28 Yeah. Yeah, I know that Trent wa- Trent had trepidations in the beginning.

Lex Fridman 59:33 Yes.

Rick Rubin 59:33 Um, but if you listen to the words, if you forget the music, and if you get what... If you forget what Nine Inch Nails sounds like, and you just read it like a poem, and then, you imagine a 70-year-old man reading these lyrics, it, it'll be, it'll be profound. It's profound. So that was the... Based on lyrics, that started the journey. And then, at this point in time, Johnny was not in great health. And, uh, sometimes I would go to Nashville and record with him at his house, and sometimes he would come to California. But he was coming to California less regularly. And because there was, there were so many songs we wanted to try, he would start sometimes recording just a straight acoustic version. Like, he would have someone play guitar, he would sing, and they would send those to me, and we would discuss like, "Is this one to build on?" Um, and that was when we said, "I don't want to record this one until we're together. I feel like we should do this one together." So on the next trip to California, we recorded it at my, at my old house. And...... I mean, all the songs we recorded felt special so I can't say this one felt special. But lyrically, it just, it's more the l- the lyrics have such a profound sense of regret.

Lex Fridman 1:01:07 What have I become?

Rick Rubin 1:01:08 Yeah. And to hear a... When you're 20 years old, talking about regret-

Lex Fridman 1:01:14 Yeah.

Rick Rubin 1:01:14 ... it's heartbreaking. But it's heartbreaking in a different way because you have your whole life to figure it out. When you're looking back over your life at the end of your life with regret, it's brutal.

Lex Fridman 1:01:25 Yeah.

Rick Rubin 1:01:25 It's brutal. So that was the initial spark of doing it. And then we, when we recorded it, I believe it was, um, two guitar players if I remember correctly, maybe even three. Um, Smokey Hormel, Matt Sweeney, and Mike Campbell, I believe. And Benmont Tench was playing the piano in my living room as we were doing it. And we cut the basic track and, with Johnny singing, and then Johnny probably sang over that basic track a few more times, and then we comped his vocal and then, uh, built up the drama. And you didn't get to the part, but at the end of the song, it gets very loud. The music gets very loud.

Lex Fridman 1:02:15 Yeah.

Rick Rubin 1:02:15 It's subtle because it's not anything that take- takes your ear and the vocal is so powerful that you don't really think about what's going on.

Lex Fridman 1:02:23 But it's building the whole time musically.

Rick Rubin 1:02:24 It's building and it even gets distorted at the end. It gets really, uh, like, over- overpowering and that's part of the emotion of it, yeah.

Lex Fridman 1:02:37 It's, uh...

Narrator 1:02:41 I will let you down.

Lex Fridman 1:02:45 Yeah. I, I hear almost anger and frustration.

Narrator 1:02:49 I will make you run If I could start again A million miles away I would keep myself I would find a way

Lex Fridman 1:03:11 And it just rings out.

Rick Rubin 1:03:13 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 1:03:14 The clean vocal. I mean, it's so simple, so incredible. And, and it's interesting to have a young man's lyrics in, in an old Johnny Cash voice and heart and mind. I had, um...

Lex Fridman 1:03:28 Are, are you a fan of Tom Waits?

Rick Rubin 1:03:30 Of course.

Lex Fridman 1:03:31 Uh, Tom Waits, when he was younger, had this, this song called Martha, but there's a bunch of songs he's written when he was young where it's like, how does a young man have that, like, melancholy wisdom? (laughs) The song Martha is about, uh, an older man calling a woman he used to love that she's now married and he's married, and they're having that conversation, they haven't spoken for 30 years, and they realize that there's still love there, and it could've been a different life, a different world where they could've been together. And here's like a 23-year-old Tom Waits writing so beautifully about something that's very, uh... I've had a lot of people, like, tell me how real that, uh, as an older person looking back at that love that you had and realizing it wasn't, it was really, it's still there, inklings of that love are still there.

Rick Rubin 1:04:27 I think there's a, um... When a young person writes a sad song... they almost seem more willing to go to a more hopeless place.

Lex Fridman 1:04:42 (laughs) Yeah.

Rick Rubin 1:04:43 Because they have, they have a long-

Lex Fridman 1:04:45 So much time.

Rick Rubin 1:04:45 ... journey ahead.

Lex Fridman 1:04:46 (laughing) Yeah.

Rick Rubin 1:04:47 And older artists tend to want to look at the bright side of things.

Lex Fridman 1:04:51 (laughs)

Rick Rubin 1:04:51 Which, which also I think comes from the wisdom of aging.

Lex Fridman 1:04:54 Yeah.

Rick Rubin 1:04:54 It's, it's a more realistic position. So it's not uncommon for younger people to write... I, I think even in the Beatles you'll see, like, their very heavy lyrics, um, middle to late era Beatles, which is still, you know, they're in their 20, you know, early 20s, I guess.

Lex Fridman 1:05:14 Wow, that's hard to think about, so much accomplished.

Rick Rubin 1:05:17 Unbelievable.

Lex Fridman 1:05:20 And they, they went through the full, full journey from fun to darkness (laughs) in, in the span of a few years.

Rick Rubin 1:05:27 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 1:05:28 Uh, you mentioned lyrics. Um, so you've obviously produced albums with incredible lyrics. I think you've mentioned, uh, the interesting characteristics of hip hop, of rap, is that you're writing poetry to rhythm versus writing poetry to melody. So that's, like, one way to think about it.

Rick Rubin 1:05:50 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 1:05:50 And I'm a fan, I mean, Tom Waits, Leonard Cohen, I'm a fan of poetry, period.

Rick Rubin 1:05:55 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 1:05:55 Um, is there something, um, about highlighting the poetry of it, the power of words as you did with, with Hurt. If, uh, like, if I have to play... There's one, uh, a Tom Waits song that's, like, less than a minute long that I always go back to, it's one I really love and it has just a few lines. It's called I Want You (instrumental music plays) and all it is is him saying, "I want you."

Narrator 1:06:35 I want you, you, you.

Lex Fridman 1:06:37 This is a 22-year-old Tom Waits.

Narrator 1:06:40 All I want is you, you, you. All I want is you.

1:06:56 Give you stars above. Sun on the brightest day. Giving you all my love. If only you would see. That I want you, you, you. All I want is you, you, you.

Lex Fridman 1:07:24 And then he hums for 20 more seconds. (laughs)

Rick Rubin 1:07:27 Yeah. Beautiful.

Lex Fridman 1:07:28 So, so simple. Man, that young man, like, lo- and, but for people who don't know Tom Waits, you should, uh, definitely listen to him, and his voice sounds very different now and it's interesting to see the evolution of a human voice, the, the artist over time, because that's a young, like, boy-like voice. Hopeful, less clever, less witty, more simple. That simplicity is there, and he's not, I mean, that takes guts to be so simple, I would say, lyrically and, uh, musically. Is there, um, sort of laying that out on the table,

Lex Fridman 1:08:07 is there ways to, that you like to highlight the voice, the lyrics? Or there's no one rule? So, to you, what is the thing that makes music special? Is it the rhythm, the melody, the, uh, or is it ultimately the lyrics are always there, or the idea?

Rick Rubin 1:08:28 You just asked me five different questions.

Lex Fridman 1:08:30 I don't care, I'll just keep asking.

Rick Rubin 1:08:31 (laughs)

Lex Fridman 1:08:32 It's not about you or-

Rick Rubin 1:08:33 I see. (laughs) You don't want the answers.

Lex Fridman 1:08:36 (laughs) I don't want the answers.

Rick Rubin 1:08:36 You just wanna ask questions. Okay. I'll listen. (laughs)

Lex Fridman 1:08:42 (laughs) Uh, I look forward to your comments, the internet. Okay.

Rick Rubin 1:08:46 (laughs)

Lex Fridman 1:08:48 (laughs) You have the greatest producer of all time in front of you and all, he can't shut the hell up. That's right, friends. Uh, is, but you do value lyrics. Is there a way to celebrate lyrics?

Rick Rubin 1:08:59 I value lyrics if the lyrics are important. I'm, I'm not a lyric person. I'm, I'm very much a whatever the thing that makes the thing good is the thing that I'm drawn to, for me. Um, for a long time lyrics meant very little. I would say from the-

Lex Fridman 1:09:16 Wait, really?

Rick Rubin 1:09:17 Yes.

Lex Fridman 1:09:17 In the beginning?

Rick Rubin 1:09:18 Yes. From the earliest days-

Lex Fridman 1:09:19 Fight For Your Right to Party, Beastie Boys?

Rick Rubin 1:09:22 Yeah, it was f- it was fun. I thought they were good lyrics, but it, it wasn't what was important. I mean, it was in a, in a almost a novelty way, not in a serious way. Early in my career, I was much more focused on the rhythm, first the rhythm, and I would d- if the lyrics weren't good enough I would be aware of it, but it wasn't the driving force for me.

Lex Fridman 1:09:48 Mm.

Rick Rubin 1:09:49 And eventually over time, then melody became an important piece, which it wasn't in the beginning, and then, uh, lyrics became more important over time. But it's always been a, always changing what, what draws me in. And one of the things I've found as it relates to lyrics that, that can give a lyric a different power has to do with rhythm, where if there's no drum, the lyrics tend to mean more.

Lex Fridman 1:10:23 Mm-hmm.

Rick Rubin 1:10:24 So earlier what you were saying about if it was just acapella, you felt, you felt Marvin Gaye in a different way hearing the acapella.

Lex Fridman 1:10:32 Can you comment on, I mean, in terms of one of the greatest albums ever.

Narrator 1:10:45 There's a fire starting in my heart.

Lex Fridman 1:10:48 Why does it sound so raw?

Narrator 1:10:50 Reaching a fever pitch.

Lex Fridman 1:10:51 Her voice.

Narrator 1:10:51 And it's bringing me out the dark.

Rick Rubin 1:10:52 She's just a great singer.

Lex Fridman 1:10:54 But this is the, you're not doing anything else, you're doing the, uh, there's, there's, there's-

Narrator 1:10:59 Go ahead and sell my soul.

Lex Fridman 1:10:59 ... the strumming and then there's just a single beat.

Narrator 1:11:03 I'll let out a second scream. See how I'll leave with every piece of you.

Lex Fridman 1:11:06 And then it builds.

Narrator 1:11:07 Don't underestimate the things that I will do. There's a fire starting in my heart. Reaching a fever pitch, and it's bringing me out the dark. The scars of your love remind me of us.

Lex Fridman 1:11:25 This gets simpler, but it feels like it's a giant orchestra. (laughs)

Narrator 1:11:28 And make me keep thinking that we almost had it all. The scars of your love, they leave me breathless. I can't help feeling. We could have had it all. But you gave into the devil and you let him win.

Lex Fridman 1:11:43 There's backing vocal.

Narrator 1:11:47 You had my heart inside of your hands. And you played it to the death.

Lex Fridman 1:11:50 The anger, I love it.

Narrator 1:11:55 And could it be me? Baby, I have no control.

Lex Fridman 1:12:00 The c- uh, I, I just, there's something about, uh, such a powerful voice and the instruments not getting in the way. I mean, the same with, uh, with Hurt and Johnny Cash. It, is, is there, um, why does it sound so, like raw? It's the same as Hurt. There's a, it f- it feels like you're in the room with them. It feels like they're not even singing, they're like, uh, like they're literally freshly mad (laughs) and angry.

Rick Rubin 1:12:30 I think those are the things that make great singers sound like great singers. It's not, it's not anything that, that's happening in the studio.

Lex Fridman 1:12:37 Well-

Rick Rubin 1:12:37 I mean, w- we're, I would say the only thing that us in the studio can do is kinda get out of the way and not, m- not ruin it, (laughs) you know? It's like that's, that's what comes through of these, these people.

Lex Fridman 1:12:54 I should also, before I f- I forget, there is a lot of song choices on that CD. I would love to see the full options. On the CD that you sent, the Johnny Cash, that I love, so Solitary Man is, is one of my favorite choices made there. Uh, is that, is that a Neil Diamond song?

Rick Rubin 1:13:11 It's funny you talk about them as songs 'cause I tend to-... I tend to listen more to albums than songs, so-

Lex Fridman 1:13:18 So, you really-

Rick Rubin 1:13:19 ... I-

Lex Fridman 1:13:19 ... you're, that's what you're doing in your head, you're pulling up the album essentially?

Rick Rubin 1:13:23 No, I'm, I'm, like, I'm going to that song, but I don't know, I've never listened to that song. But I know that when that, when that song comes up in the sequence of the album, it has-

Lex Fridman 1:13:32 It has a sound.

Rick Rubin 1:13:32 ... a really powerful effect in me. Let's see what it does if you just start it.

Narrator 1:13:53 If you could read my mind.

Lex Fridman 1:13:56 (laughing) Oh, that's so interesting, yeah.

Narrator 1:13:58 What a tale of ghosts-

Lex Fridman 1:13:59 Wow.

Narrator 1:13:59 ... we could tell. Just like an old time movie about a ghost from a wishing well. In a castle dark or a fortress strong with chains around my feet.

Lex Fridman 1:14:20 (laughs)

Narrator 1:14:21 You know that ghost is me. And I will never be set free as long as there's a ghost that you can't see.

Lex Fridman 1:14:39 That's beautiful.

Narrator 1:14:39 If I could-

Lex Fridman 1:14:40 Such a beautiful choice. Try.

Rick Rubin 1:14:41 Beautiful melody, such a beautiful melody and haunting words.

Lex Fridman 1:14:46 Song so simply. I, I have to, um... I mean, 'cause

Lex Fridman 1:14:53 I'll, I was, I was born in the Soviet Union. Um, when, when you're, when you're growing up, uh, there's a few bands that kinda... I mean, they're probably forbidden still but they seep in, and you get, like, uh, bootlegged, and they somehow take over the culture of the young, of, of the young folks such as myself. So, uh, on the metal side it was Metallica and Iron Maiden. And, uh, on the, I don't know what you call them, but Beastie Boys. I remember hearing, uh, Fight For Your Right, and it was just like, for some reason that s- stuck as it did for a lot of people in Russia as like, "Wow, America is when you get to say 'fuck you' to the man." The rebellion, the freedom. Um, I probably heard it, uh, a few years after it was released because it kinda, it dissipates to the culture, you get the bootleg, it, I mean, it's hard to get your hands on. But I just remember... I mean, I, I, I wanna kinda bring that up because it, it was such a personally important song to me, and yet, probably you didn't even think of that. You, you probably thought of it as it's role in the culture here in the United States, like, in terms of musically. But it just-

Rick Rubin 1:16:12 Well, I was, you know, 20, 20-

Lex Fridman 1:16:15 (laughs)

Rick Rubin 1:16:15 ... 21 years old and we were just making-

Lex Fridman 1:16:16 Well, you were that kid too, right?

Rick Rubin 1:16:17 Yeah, we were just making fun songs for our friends. There was no, there was no, uh, expectation or-

Lex Fridman 1:16:22 So that's just a fun song?

Rick Rubin 1:16:24 Yeah, no one thought... We never imagined anybody would like any of it.

Lex Fridman 1:16:28 One of the greatest albums ever.

Narrator 1:16:30 Yeah. (heavy metal music)

Lex Fridman 1:16:35 I have to, it's, I love this so much, I just remember-

Narrator 1:16:38 Kick it. (heavy metal music)

Lex Fridman 1:16:40 This is America.

Narrator 1:16:41 Heavy metal. Heavy metal. Yeah. Heavy metal. Yeah. Heavy metal. Yeah.

Lex Fridman 1:16:48 I didn't even know, I didn't even understand the lyrics, to be honest.

Narrator 1:16:53 Your mind feels like a school man, you don't wanna go.

Lex Fridman 1:16:57 And the lyrics are ridiculous.

Rick Rubin 1:16:59 Ridiculous.

Narrator 1:17:01 You asked him, "I please you?" But you still said, "No." You missed two classes and no homework. But your teacher pretends class like he's some kind of jerk. You gotta fight for your right to party.

Lex Fridman 1:17:28 So hearing that and hearing Metallica, Master of Puppets, I was like, I knew I'm gonna have to end up in America one day. (laughs)

Rick Rubin 1:17:36 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 1:17:37 Of all... (laughs) I mean, maybe now that I'm more mature or, uh, maybe a little bit more mature, I realize, like, that was kind of the longing for freedom. It, it felt like at, at least at the time if this is allowed then anything is allowed.

Rick Rubin 1:17:51 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 1:17:52 (laughs) And I think the, that, uh, the rebellion of it, the, (sighs) um... 'Cause I guess it's also fun. I, I just, I just loved it. Is there... If you look back to that, 'cause you're, you're, uh, uh... I mean, you were that person, not just the producer. (laughs) It feels like-

Rick Rubin 1:18:11 Well, yes and no. Like, it was, e- even to us then it was still like satirical. You know, it wasn't-

Lex Fridman 1:18:17 It was.

Rick Rubin 1:18:17 ... uh... Oh, absolutely.

Lex Fridman 1:18:18 But isn't, like, music in part, like, you're dancing in the line, is part satirical, part serious in, in a sense? Like, you're losing yourself in the satire? Like, when you every- any time you go over the top isn't that part of the... Or is it, does it, is, is it explicitly satirical? You're making fun... I mean-

Rick Rubin 1:18:38 I don't know. I don't-

Lex Fridman 1:18:38 ... Girls (laughs) and there's a lot of ridiculous songs in that album.

Rick Rubin 1:18:41 I don't know. I just think it's, it was definitely to make each other laugh. Like, we were trying to make each other laugh.

Lex Fridman 1:18:47 Yeah.

Rick Rubin 1:18:47 We weren't trying to make a point. We were trying to make each other laugh.

Lex Fridman 1:18:51 But that person... How's that person different than the person today, in you? The, the person that produced that record.

Rick Rubin 1:18:59 I wouldn't say so different. It's like it, it really is that, that, um... I like things that make me laugh, you know? I like ridiculous things.

Lex Fridman 1:19:07 But it's the same person still?

Rick Rubin 1:19:09 I think so.

Lex Fridman 1:19:10 The... Is it strange to look at just how many incredible-

Rick Rubin 1:19:13 I mean, I wouldn't, I don't think I would make that today but I understand why we made it when we did. It's, uh, it's, uh-... in the vocabulary of, of, um, ridiculous that would make sense to do. You know, for the right artist today could make something ridiculous and gives you that feeling.

Lex Fridman 1:19:33 I mean, there's just a sense when you make so many different albums, and you look back at that creation, it, it can feel like a different person created that. But you're making it seem like if you travel back in time, or maybe do memory replay, you'd be, you'd be able to hang out with the, with the teenage, in the 20s Rick Rubin. (laughs) And he'd be just fine.

Rick Rubin 1:19:57 Yeah, I, I don't think, I don't think I was so different, honestly.

Lex Fridman 1:20:01 That's hilarious.

Rick Rubin 1:20:02 It's funny, I ran into someone, um, recently in Costa Rica who I hadn't seen in a long time and who I knew from the New York days when, those days. And, um, and we spent a couple of hours talking, and she said, "You're exactly the same person-"

Lex Fridman 1:20:22 (laughs)

Rick Rubin 1:20:22 "... person that you were then." So I have, uh, a short, you know, a recent confirmation (laughs) that that's the case.

Lex Fridman 1:20:30 That's beautiful. Uh, was it Tim Ferriss asked you about, like, who's the most successful person you know? That's the definition of success, I would say. (laughs) You're the exactly the same person. You haven't lost yourself, and, or rather you found yourself early on.

Rick Rubin 1:20:43 I would say there, there are aspects of me that have changed for sure, um, but I ca- uh, but I can't say that it's, that it's necessarily better. It's different. Um, at that, I would say at that time, I was more confident than I am now, and I'm s- very confident now. But then I had an unrealistic, um, confidence, and I think now it's a little more based in reality.

Rick Rubin 1:21:14 At that point in time, I'd never been depressed, and then once you go through a depression, you, d- well, some people, I know in my case, uh, when I went through a depression, afterwards I was a different person than I was before. And I, and I feel more, um, grounded now than I did then. And I probably relate to the artists who, so many of the artists I work with suffer. So many artists suffer because that's part of what makes an artist great is their level of sensitivity that this, the s- same thing that makes, uh, an artist uncomfortable, other people don't feel at all.

Lex Fridman 1:21:56 The time you were depressed, what was the darkest moments of your life? What took you there? How did you get out?

Rick Rubin 1:22:06 It was triggered by, uh, a person making a comment about something to do with work that didn't matter. You know, it was like a, uh, to anyone else, they would hear that and they would just be like, "Okay, we'll deal with it next week," whatever. But for some reason, I took it in a way that, um, I felt like the rug had been pulled out from under me. Even beyond the rational part of it, of understanding, you know, even after the problem that came up was solved, it somehow undermined something in me and made me feel very vulnerable in a way that I hadn't felt before.

Lex Fridman 1:22:44 And it spiraled. How did you get out?

Rick Rubin 1:22:48 I did a lot of different kinds of therapy. I did, um, starting with alternative therapies, I was seeing, I would say, between seven and eight doctors and/or therapists a week. Um, acupuncture, um, talk therapy, um, herbs, all, a- a- a- any, any possible modality. Tried everything for a long time. And, um, and it, and nothing seemed to have an impact. And then finally, um... I'm wary of taking any Western medicine. I'm not a drug taker, and, uh, or drinker, or partier in any way. And, um, I found a, a psychopharmacologist who was a psychic. But because she was a psychic, I was okay to see her, 'cause she's-

Lex Fridman 1:23:53 (laughs)

Rick Rubin 1:23:53 ... like, I'll, I'll do, I'll listen to a psychic.

Lex Fridman 1:23:56 Yeah.

Rick Rubin 1:23:56 But I'm not gonna listen to a psychopharmacologist. But the fact that she had the, the psychic, uh, that made her fit into my world view. And, um, and she recommended an antidepressant, which went terribly wrong in the first night that I took it. (laughs) And then I, that set me on a journey of looking for the right antidepressant, which was a long and painful process.

Lex Fridman 1:24:20 That's a heck of a journey.

Rick Rubin 1:24:21 Every one that I took made me sick, every one. And then finally, it's, I don't know, five months later, six months later, I found the magic one that worked for me. And it, um, it shifted me out of the depression. I took it for, I can't remember if it was six months or a year, and then weaned off and was okay. And then I had another event some years later. I think I took it again for a short period of time and got out of it, and have not needed it since.

Lex Fridman 1:24:52 Were you able to kind of introspect the triggers that led to the events? Is there some- or is it random events of life?

Rick Rubin 1:25:02 I think it's more that, um, because of the way that I grew up, I never had to deal with much controversy.

Lex Fridman 1:25:13 Ah.

Rick Rubin 1:25:13 And, um, when I, uh, when I was challenged, I didn't have any ability to deal with it. It's like, um, you know, Jonathan Haidt talks about, it's like that.

Lex Fridman 1:25:26 So, uh, y- you actually also mentioned like business sometimes gives you stress. So, these- this was business-related stuff.

Rick Rubin 1:25:33 Yeah. It was a business-related thing. It just made me feel

Rick Rubin 1:25:36 bad.

Lex Fridman 1:25:37 It's th- one of the sadder things about art and music is that it's often interleaved with business folk. Uh, I suppose that's the way of the world if you have a capitalist system. But it makes... That business folks rubbing up against artists, um, can sometimes destroy a fragile mind and soul. Like, uh, to me, like, one of the best representations of an artist, honestly, is Jony Ive, the designer from Apple. And he's just so fragile with his ideas, and he talked about like when he has ideas, he really wouldn't show it to Steve Jobs or anybody except for the small design team because he was so nervous that it would, it would break. Like, give it a chance. Let it... Give it a chance to grow. And it seems like the outside world, uh, business people, PR people, people that kinda, um, have not lost themselves in the passion of creating, but instead are kind of representing or pr- uh, like making deals, all that kind of stuff, they, they can kind of trample on those little ideas, and it's, it's sad to see. (laughs)

Rick Rubin 1:26:48 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 1:26:48 It's real- it's really heartbreaking to see, 'cause you know how much trampling there's going on.

Rick Rubin 1:26:53 It's one of the main jobs, my jobs as a record producer is to, um, keep the, keep the voices away from the artist from all of the people who are really on their side, but don't know, you know?

Lex Fridman 1:27:07 Yeah.

Rick Rubin 1:27:07 Like the, the, uh, whether it be people, um... A- anyone on the business side who doesn't make things, they're excited to do their part, you know? They're excited if... When you deliver the thing, the, the art that you make to me, then we can start the project.

Lex Fridman 1:27:23 Yeah.

Rick Rubin 1:27:24 Um, but there's nothing to sell if the art doesn't happen in the right way, and it has to be protected, and it can't happen on the same kind of a timetable that, um, that business can. It's just a different thing. It doesn't... Art doesn't come in a quarterly way.

Lex Fridman 1:27:43 And that doesn't apply just to music, or... It applies to art. It applies to all creative pursuits. Like, this is generally the case, like, uh, a- a- at MIT. It's just, there's the administration, and then there is the professors and students. And the professors and students are the creative folk.

Rick Rubin 1:28:03 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 1:28:03 They create stuff. They dream. They have wild ideas that go on tangents, and so on. They, they, uh, they have hopes, and they, they go with those, and they get, like, on these weird passionate pursuits, and st-... And then, administration can often just trample on that. Um, and they, they, they set up bars on all kinds of, in all kinds of ways that you think you're not actually hurting, um, but you really are. And, you know, I won't mention why, but... Because this happens to everybody, and I have a large amount of leverage at MIT now, but even I get a little bit of pressure in such stupid ways to like... Don't... Like, "Be careful. Be careful, Lex." Like, "We, we really want your career to succeed. Be careful." And that little pressure to an artist, you know? "Do you wanna go acapella? Do you wanna go... Do you want to g- do a country record?" Like, "Be careful."

Rick Rubin 1:29:00 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 1:29:00 "Like, you're already a superstar. Be careful."

Rick Rubin 1:29:02 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 1:29:02 And then, in that way, you kinda push people like flock of fish into one fish tank where they're all the same.

Rick Rubin 1:29:10 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 1:29:10 And it's, it's sad to see, and it's... Obviously, in the modern world, there's nice mechanism to protect... To let artists flourish a little bit more, 'cause they get to put themselves to the world and get a little bit more confidence. Maybe different funding mechanisms, all that kind of stuff, but...

Rick Rubin 1:29:26 Tremendous problem that the, the voices that don't understand interfering with the process is huge. The other side of it is, in success, there can be a lack of reality, where all of the people around the successful person just tell them everything they do is great, and then they, they don't have anything to bump up against anymore or have a realistic, uh, sense of what's, what... How things work, or how, how it... How the... How things measure, you know? Um, so both sides are really important. Both, both avoiding the voices getting in the way, and having a trusted group of, you know, a sangha, a, a group of people who can say, "You know, I don't know if that's as good." And you can still, you know, say, "I don't care what you think." That's fine. But it helps to hear it, you know? It helps to have... If someone who you respect tells you something isn't good enough, it's helpful.

Lex Fridman 1:30:31 When you know it comes from a place of love, when it comes from a place of wisdom.

Rick Rubin 1:30:35 100%. And not from a place of fear, not from a place of, "Oh, this doesn't sound like it's gonna do as well as your last thing." That's-

Lex Fridman 1:30:43 Yeah.

Rick Rubin 1:30:43 ... that's not the point. The point is, on this, uh, quest for greatness, are you living up to your ability?

Lex Fridman 1:30:55 By the way, is there something interesting to say about your worldview? 'Cause you mentioned psychic, and, and sort of the ways we can be healthy, the ways we can grow, and how much maybe medicine or science or... Has, um, has the answers. Is there, is there some interesting way to describe that worldview?

Rick Rubin 1:31:18 I would just say I'm, I'm open mind-... I believe anything's possible. And if I was gonna trust in any practical information, it would be something thousands of years old.

Lex Fridman 1:31:30 There's wisdom in that history. Yeah.

Rick Rubin 1:31:33 Well, it's- it's more tested. It's not always right, but it's at least it's been somewhat tested.

Lex Fridman 1:31:42 Well, science has also tested (laughs) the- the thing I'm a little bit skeptical of sometimes is just the hubris that often comes with the modern, or the- the latest, the newest, the- this- this feeling like you figured it all out, everything that's been done in the past has no wisdom, and, uh, we basically solved every problem. Uh, you know, there's nothing else to be solved. This, I mean, that's the defining characteristic of any age is like we've solved all the problems there are, we've- have the final answers, and our parents are all stupid. (laughs)

Rick Rubin 1:32:12 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 1:32:12 That kind of energy, yeah. The- and that you have to be extremely, extremely careful with that one. It talks about when you think about something as complex as the human body or the human mind, you have to be very-

Rick Rubin 1:32:22 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 1:32:23 ... uh, very, very careful.

Rick Rubin 1:32:23 I- I believe we know close to nothing.

Lex Fridman 1:32:26 Yeah, exactly.

Rick Rubin 1:32:27 Close to nothing.

Lex Fridman 1:32:28 That's-

Rick Rubin 1:32:28 About anything.

Lex Fridman 1:32:29 (laughs) About anything.

Rick Rubin 1:32:30 About anything.

Lex Fridman 1:32:31 That place of humility is a good place to start to figure- to figure it all out. And in the end, we'll still know almost nothing.

Rick Rubin 1:32:38 Yeah, I don't think we need to know. It's like we need to see what works, and we need to see what works for us. It's interesting to know. I- I know on the art side, knowing how it works isn't what makes it work, you know? Isn't- the magic of it isn't how it works. The magic is the magic.

Lex Fridman 1:32:57 Right.

Rick Rubin 1:32:57 And the magic happens in a way that's intuitive and accidental at times, or, uh, inci- incidental where you're trying many things and all of a sudden something works. And, um, and you don't know why, and it's okay not to know why. It doesn't mat- it doesn't really matter why, as long as it does the thing that you want it to do, whatever that is.

Lex Fridman 1:33:21 Yeah, that's so weird that you- when you know the components, you don't- you still... Yeah, the magic. What's the magic? Where's the magic? Like we know the components for stuff I care about, artificial intelligence. We know the components of a powerful computing machinery, but where does consciousness come from? What- what is that?

Rick Rubin 1:33:41 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 1:33:41 Uh, what is the, uh, uh, brilliant moments of insight come from? What's that? When, uh, when even in simple games of chess or in simple... Where do those breakthrough ideas of taking a big risk that doesn't make any sense and then all of a sudden it becomes something beautiful?

Rick Rubin 1:33:59 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 1:33:59 Yeah, we don't need to understand why. It just happens.

Rick Rubin 1:34:01 It just happens. And often the things that end up breaking through n- don't break through in the way we thought, or turn out to be a third iteration of something that we thought was an entirely different thing, or it... We don't know, you know?