Roger Gracie: Greatest Jiu Jitsu Competitor of All Time | Lex Fridman Podcast #343

Roger Gracie 0:00 In my mind, I have to top everybody else. Winning is not enough.

Lex Fridman 0:06 The following is a conversation with Roger Gracie, widely considered to be the greatest jujitsu competitor of all time. This is the Lex Friedman Podcast. To support it, please check out our sponsors in the description, and now, dear friends, here's Roger Gracie.

Lex Fridman 0:25 Let's start with possibly the greatest match in jujitsu history, your second match against Buchecha. Let's go through the details. Let's go through the whole thing. So the walk leading up to it, you always do this walk-

Roger Gracie 0:37 (laughs)

Lex Fridman 0:37 ... this epic walk. You posted on Instagram, Renzo posted on Instagram.

Roger Gracie 0:41 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 0:41 This calm walk towards the mat. Well, let's- let's go to that match in particular. What was going through your mind? You'd been away from competition, facing probably one of the greatest, and at- at that time, many people considered the greatest jujitsu competitor of all time in Buchecha. Uh, here's the old man-

Roger Gracie 1:00 (laughs)

Lex Fridman 1:00 ... the old-timer getting back at, uh, out there. What were you thinking?

Roger Gracie 1:03 Yeah. Uh, I think that's the first time since probably I got my black belt that I wasn't the favorite walking into a fight, I have to say. Like, a lot of people thought, considered him the favorite. I mean, understandable, you know, I was out of competition for a while, and he was just winning everything. So, you know, you're saying about the walk. Like, for me, you know, the fight starts way before the referee say go, you know? It's the, it's all the focus and concentration that I think is very important for me to start before, like, you know, I almost walk blind to the match. Many times I passed, like, great friends and I couldn't see anyone, you know? They're trying to talk to you, and I'm like, I'm 100% focused on my opponent already, even though that I cannot even see him in front of me. So I think that for me was always, uh, very important to try to clear my mind out from everything.

Lex Fridman 1:59 Are you visualizing the opponent or are you just clearing-

Roger Gracie 2:02 Not at, not at that much, not at that time.

Lex Fridman 2:03 Right. Is there, what's- what's in your head? Is it like a calm river with birds chirping? What? (laughs)

Roger Gracie 2:08 It's blank, just-

Lex Fridman 2:10 Blank.

Roger Gracie 2:10 ... just blank.

Lex Fridman 2:10 Darkness.

Roger Gracie 2:11 Yeah. Darkness.

Lex Fridman 2:12 Okay. And that's what we see in that calmness, is just blankness.

Roger Gracie 2:16 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 2:16 How hard is it to achieve that blankness?

Roger Gracie 2:18 It's difficult to say because I think I don't remember when, I'll say probably as a black belt, I tried to focus like that, not to think, because, uh, it's probably something you learn, is the more you think, the more nervous you get. And there's nothing that you're gonna gain by thinking of the fight or the possibilities what, you know, what you can do, what can go wrong, what can go right because it's unpredictable. You- you have absolutely no idea. It's impossible to predict the fight.

Lex Fridman 2:49 And you discover that if you just let those nervous feelings go and empty your mind, it actually is pretty effective.

Roger Gracie 2:55 It is. It- it makes you feel better. It's, you know, you- you kind of control your emotion, control the adrenaline on your body up to a level, so it- it absolutely helps you, you know, focus in the fight.

Lex Fridman 3:07 I've learned that in jujitsu and j- in general in life that whenever something feels really shitty, you can just, like, take that thought and not think about it.

Roger Gracie 3:16 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 3:17 Like, I do that, like, on long runs or, like, a fast run or, yeah, in jujitsu, especially now I'm getting older, out of shape, like, that feeling of exhaustion. Well, you can always get to the feeling of exhaustion. You could just not think about it.

Roger Gracie 3:29 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 3:29 Not think about being exhausted.

Roger Gracie 3:31 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 3:32 Just... And that somehow relaxes you. I think, uh, maybe in the face of exhaustion, all the fears start to creep in, maybe your muscles tighten up, I don't know. This is for the- the, uh, the amateur jujitsu person.

Roger Gracie 3:44 (laughs)

Lex Fridman 3:44 Uh, but it- it's kind of funny how you can just take that thought and let go of it. So you get, as a black belt competitor, you get used to, you get good at letting go of any thoughts.

Roger Gracie 3:55 Yeah. When you mention to exhaustion, is, um, that's another good example of it. It's, you know, there's a lot of times in the fight you're getting tired, and you're getting pretty tired. So it's, like, the last thing you want to think of it is how tired you are. It doesn't matter because it doesn't. What are you gonna do, quit?

Lex Fridman 4:14 (laughs)

Roger Gracie 4:14 I mean-

Lex Fridman 4:15 Yeah.

Roger Gracie 4:15 ... it doesn't matter. It's how tired you are. It's-

Lex Fridman 4:18 Yeah, there's no value in thinking about it.

Roger Gracie 4:19 There's no value. It's, you just have to go through it.

Lex Fridman 4:21 So when you're, like, uh, you know, many minutes into the match and you're slowly moving, as you sometimes do, tying your belt, catching your breath, you're not thinking about anything. You're trying to let go of-

Roger Gracie 4:32 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 4:32 ... of thinking.

Roger Gracie 4:34 I'm trying to, like, to save everything to the fight. Like, nothing goes to waste. It's, you know, every move unnecessary is- is just gonna make you more tired or it's gonna take something out of you. Like, you know, I try to calculate every single move I make, save as much energy as I can so I can fully, you know, be focused 100% in the fight with no waste, especially energywise.

Lex Fridman 5:01 And- and that's instinctual. Like, uh, minimizing the amount of moves. You're not, like, explicitly thinking, "Should I do this or not?" You're, it's just-

Roger Gracie 5:10 No.

Lex Fridman 5:10 Just don't move unless it's absolutely required.

Roger Gracie 5:13 Yeah. 'Cause fight is, you- you cannot really, there's not really time to think much, you know? It's like, it's- it's your instincts are playing. It's like it's, you know, you already have your, uh, you know, your- your weapons, let's say, you know, your- the- the things that you good at. It's just you wait for the perfect moment. The beauty of it is, you know, is there's the right moment to everything. If you feel one second too late, doesn't work, or it get messy. So it's, you know, you're trying to catch that moment. That's is, you know, and for that, you have to be fully focused on what you're doing because one- one second is you're out, it won't work.

Lex Fridman 5:50 But you're- you're not exactly known as somebody that moves super quickly, so the... (laughs)

Roger Gracie 5:56 No. (laughs)

Lex Fridman 5:56 So the moment, it's not about how quickly you move, it's about, uh, the right moment. So you-

Roger Gracie 6:02 The right moment.

Lex Fridman 6:02 ... you make sure you move slowly.

Roger Gracie 6:02 Yeah, yeah. Yeah, it's not, like, speed...It's not like you have to move at the speed of light. It's, it's, it's the move itself at that precise moment. It doesn't have to be super fast because your opponent's not moving super fa- you know, so it's, it's, it's a combination of moving between you and him.

Lex Fridman 6:21 I mean, the same thing happens in, in judo, and the movement can be really small.

Roger Gracie 6:25 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 6:26 It's just-

Roger Gracie 6:26 I think judo is a, is a bit more explosiveness, you know, it's just, it's, the moves are slightly faster, so it did, now it does require a bit more explosiveness in judo.

Lex Fridman 6:36 But even just the right timing for an off-balance.

Roger Gracie 6:39 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 6:40 Just a little tug.

Roger Gracie 6:41 Yeah. Yeah.

Lex Fridman 6:42 And then-

Roger Gracie 6:42 It's not that the, you know, moving, the speed is not gonna count that much.

Lex Fridman 6:46 Yeah.

Roger Gracie 6:47 It's the timing that you initiate that move.

Lex Fridman 6:49 You see that with foot sweeps. There's nothing more beautiful than a-

Roger Gracie 6:52 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 6:52 ... like a Olympic level athlete going at it in the Olympics, and a perfect foot sweep.

Roger Gracie 6:58 And somebody... (laughs)

Lex Fridman 6:58 And it's just-

Roger Gracie 6:59 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 6:59 ... and you see one man's life flash before his eyes and realize, like, "I'm supposed to be the top three person in the world. Did I just fa-" And they don't, they have this look on their face like, "I don't know what just happened." It's beautiful to see. You d- you don't see that... I guess you see that in boxing knockouts and stuff like that. You don't know what the hell just happened.

Roger Gracie 7:18 Yeah. It's that precise moment of movement that you get caught. Like it's th- it's that one split second. That's it.

Lex Fridman 7:27 Do you get that in jujitsu at all? 'Cause ju- judo has, because of the explosiveness, because of the point scoring system th- that incentivizes these giant throws, um, has these moments where everything just turns in a single moment. Do you have that in jujitsu too?

Roger Gracie 7:42 Not really because then it's points. It's you get like, you know, two points. So it's, uh, because w- I think regarding the submission, it's not just one precise movement that change everything. I think judo is the take-down that counts as a submission, like Kippon, fight over. Jujitsu don't have that. So you will, you will score points, but I think in terms of submission, you need to get to, uh, you know, a dominant position first. And then the submission will come slowly. Uh, yeah.

Lex Fridman 8:15 It's a process.

Roger Gracie 8:15 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 8:17 Okay, let's go back to that guy, with, with his mind. So actually in the weeks leading up to it, in the days, in the hours, in the minutes, is there some fear in you leading up to this?

Roger Gracie 8:30 I mean, I'm not gonna say, you know, that I'm fearless because everybody fear something, you know. The fear is there, but it's like how much you let that controlled you. I think I was a lot more confident than fearful, uh, for sure, walking to that fight. Like, I, I was pretty confident that, yeah, I could beat him.

Lex Fridman 8:49 Where is the source of that confidence?

Roger Gracie 8:52 Uh, my belief goin' on, on me. Yes.

Lex Fridman 8:55 Okay. So-

Roger Gracie 8:55 I can take the world. (laughs)

Lex Fridman 8:57 (laughs) Not sp- you can take anyone in the world, but is there a specific strategic, like, uh, you know, talking to Danaher, he believes that there's no such thing as confidence. Like th- or rather the way you get confidence is through data.

Roger Gracie 9:13 (laughs)

Lex Fridman 9:13 Like that you have proven yourself effective, uh, in previous situations. But with Buchecha, uh, you don't, you don't have much data. It was a very t- the first time you faced him was a very tough, that was also one of the greatest matches of all time. That was very tough. So doesn't that creep in, like that doubt, because you don't, you don't have enough data to be confident based on. (laughs)

Roger Gracie 9:38 Uh, yeah, I mean... okay, if I never have fought before, you know, suddenly walk into a fight with someone like that, then would I be that confidence? I mean, probably no. You know, so that history of what, you know, what we've been doing, what we've been achieving does gives you confidence. Uh, if that was my first fight ever, I wouldn't, probably I wouldn't be that confident.

Lex Fridman 10:02 But the time off?

Roger Gracie 10:04 Uh, it doesn't matter.

Lex Fridman 10:05 Doesn't matter.

Roger Gracie 10:07 Doesn't matter. Doesn't matter.

Lex Fridman 10:08 You don't have the fear or the actual physical experience, the psychological experience of being rusty, of being out of the competition?

Roger Gracie 10:14 That will, that will come out on training.

Lex Fridman 10:17 So you, okay, so you simulate some-

Roger Gracie 10:18 Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Lex Fridman 10:18 ... aspect of that in the training?

Roger Gracie 10:20 I mean, it's the, the training will tell you how you are.

Lex Fridman 10:22 Okay. Did you increase the intensity of the training leading up to this?

Roger Gracie 10:27 Yeah. I mean, I train, I train normal. Let's say compared to the first fight, uh, the second one was a lot more confidence because, you know, like I said on training, the training for the first fight, they were terrible. So... (laughs)

Lex Fridman 10:40 What do you mean?

Roger Gracie 10:41 I think I was, uh, the, the focus on MMA for a while, for a couple months, and I wasn't really focused in the gi, and you know, by the time I accepted the fight and then start training, like all my responses on training were off. Like all my training partner that I used to train with that I destroyed, I mean, now they're like, they're beating me. (laughs) You know, it's like I cannot beat them the way I w- I, I, I was used to.

Lex Fridman 11:04 Mm-hmm.

Roger Gracie 11:05 But, you know, so I, I knew it was, something was not right for the first fight. But then it's, uh, s- is it, you know, no points, it's submission or, or draw. So-

Lex Fridman 11:15 Yeah. For people who don't know, it was a Matty Morris, which is a 20-minute match, submission only, so there's no-

Roger Gracie 11:20 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 11:20 The winner is determined only by submission, otherwise it's a draw.

Roger Gracie 11:23 So physically I wasn't, I wasn't myself on that fight. It, I was tired and, uh, my body wasn't responding. Anyway, so that, th- so the confidence was different from the first. The second, I think I was confident enough that I wouldn't get tapped out on the first, that I was still gonna fight because he has to tap me out to beat me, and I trust on my defense. I'm confident enough on my defense that he will not tap me out. But in terms of winning, you know, walking to the second fight, I was a lot more confident.

Lex Fridman 11:56 What can you say about that feeling when something's not right? Isn't that a thing that breaks people?

Roger Gracie 12:00 It, it's weird, breaks. It's weird. Like people crack, they give up, you know, this, it's, it's a, it's a big test because it's, it's, it's like being really tired.... is the same thing. It's, like, a lot of people crack because they just feel they can not give it more. There's, they have no- nothing more to give, so they just, like, give up. It's too hard.

Lex Fridman 12:21 So what do you do? Just, again, take the thoughts out?

Roger Gracie 12:23 There is no giving up.

Lex Fridman 12:25 (laughs)

Roger Gracie 12:25 I mean, uh, I don't mind. I don't care. Like, g- g- just giving up is not an option. It's not.

Lex Fridman 12:32 That's always the way you thought-

Roger Gracie 12:33 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 12:34 ... about jujitsu?

Roger Gracie 12:35 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 12:35 Never?

Roger Gracie 12:35 Like, I, I, I've never gave up. I mean, I tapped. It's, you know, not giving up is not not tapping. That's just stupid. Especially, you know, doing training. Like, it's, I get caught, I tap. I've never ever hurt myself by not tapping. I get you get angry, you know, it's train hard, you know, improve. Make a, make yourself better. You got caught, accept that you made a mistake, give up, tap, then try harder. So, you know, the not tapping, it's, you're sacrificing your body and, you know, it's, it's, you, you'll never be the same. Like, if you let your elbow popped, the elbow will never ever be the same, ever.

Lex Fridman 13:13 Yeah.

Roger Gracie 13:14 You let yourself go to sleep, your resistant drops. So it's, everybody has a, has a limit of resistance until they, you know, you, to resist a choke before you pass out. The moment that you, you, you, you, you go to sleep, that resistant will dropped, according to-

Lex Fridman 13:30 I've never heard anyone say that.

Roger Gracie 13:32 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 13:32 That's awesome.

Roger Gracie 13:33 So people-

Lex Fridman 13:33 That's true.

Roger Gracie 13:33 So-

Lex Fridman 13:33 So tap. So that's the reason, 'cause people usually say it's, you can-

Roger Gracie 13:37 No.

Lex Fridman 13:37 ... you can-

Roger Gracie 13:37 It's, it's, it's the same as you getting knocked out. You get knocked out the first time, your resistant dropped. Your jaw get weak, gets weaker. So-

Lex Fridman 13:44 Just for the record, I've never gone to sleep in jujitsu.

Roger Gracie 13:48 (laughs)

Lex Fridman 13:48 Which, uh, means my resistance is high, right? I don't know.

Roger Gracie 13:51 Yeah. Must be, or your defense is pretty good. (laughs)

Lex Fridman 13:54 Uh, I don't know about that. No, no. Uh, because it doesn't make sense to me, or maybe, in my case, I think my understanding of when I'm screwed is pretty good.

Roger Gracie 14:06 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 14:06 Like, there's no-

Roger Gracie 14:07 You, you know you're in trouble.

Lex Fridman 14:09 Yeah. One of the things that I regret the most about my jujitsu journey is not having given enough time to, um, being in really bad positions. Like, the better I got, I think the less I started being in bad positions, which is terrible.

Roger Gracie 14:26 It's because you, you spar. That's like the, that is how you train.

Lex Fridman 14:29 Yeah.

Roger Gracie 14:30 Because you used to just spar. When you spar, like, it's difficult to, to be in bad positions a lot. Unle- uh, you train with better people, but, I mean, let's say five, i- six minute rolls. How long you gonna be in a really bad position? Not long, right? So you don't really have time to develop. That's why people, they don't, you know, they don't train to be in bad positions 'cause you have to start there over and over again to be used to it. (laughs)

Lex Fridman 14:57 Yeah, or put yourself there. I just didn't have that mindset, I think. I think you start... I mean, part of the fun of jujitsu is, as you get better and better, you have certain people you go with, you have these puzzles that you figured out, that you're playing, very specific details you're working out. You're trying to improve your main, like, techniques and so on. But yeah, just the percentage of time you spend being submitted or being, or try, even going against, like, lower ranks, trying to escape basic submissions is low. I, I don't know if that's true for most people. Probably is, right?

Roger Gracie 15:28 Most people have very bad defense-

Lex Fridman 15:30 Yeah.

Roger Gracie 15:30 ... because they don't allow themself to be there, because, I mean, who wants to get tapped? Because you will, until you pre- you know, until you work on your defense, of course you're gonna get tap. Or, you know, you're not gonna escape. You're gonna struggle to escape. So people, they don't want to be there.

Lex Fridman 15:48 I regret it most because of the effect it clearly had on how I competed. It, I, it was, it was clear that my competition was con- uh, was constantly driven by conservative thinking, like, don't take risks, b- I think because of a weak defense, honestly. And I think, uh, a lot of the, any of the fear, like, uh, for example, exhaustion was accompanied by fear because of weak defense, I think.

Roger Gracie 16:16 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 16:16 If I were to psychoanalyze myself-

Roger Gracie 16:18 (laughs)

Lex Fridman 16:18 ... and I re- I regret it, I regret it a lot. Um, but s- speaking of which, I don't think anyone's ever submitted you in competition. So you're... (laughs)

Roger Gracie 16:32 When, while I was a juvenile, yes.

Lex Fridman 16:34 (laughs) Yes. So, so when you were a young person?

Roger Gracie 16:36 Yeah. 16.

Lex Fridman 16:37 Does that still haunt you? (laughs)

Roger Gracie 16:39 Uh, no. That's... First, I was winning that fight by a large... I mean, I think by six points or four, something like that. But I was like, I was doing-

Lex Fridman 16:49 Still remember it though, huh?

Roger Gracie 16:50 By the details. (laughs)

Lex Fridman 16:53 (laughs) Yeah. That's funny.

Roger Gracie 16:57 Yeah. And he-

Lex Fridman 16:57 You ever beat him again?

Roger Gracie 16:58 He never competed again. (laughs)

Lex Fridman 17:03 (laughs) Um, uh, whoever you are, please, uh, let's, let's do a podcast-

Roger Gracie 17:07 I know, I know.

Lex Fridman 17:07 ... again and talk shit about Roger the whole time.

Roger Gracie 17:10 (laughs)

Lex Fridman 17:10 Uh, no, but what, what do you attribute to that too? You were saying you were confident. You were confident that the top of the world, the number one Buchecha would not submit you. Um, so where is that confidence grounded and what do you attribute the fact that nobody was able to submit you?

Roger Gracie 17:28 First, it comes from training. You know, I train a lot bad position. Like, my defense is good because I've tr- I practice over and over again. The, as much as I practice all my offensive position. So it's, you know, you have to train both equally. It's not just be in a good position. You have to be in bad. So I think that's a very strong part of my game. You know, I, to, to be a complete fighter, you know, at least a, to co- co- a complete martial artist, you have to be good in every single position. Every single one. It, i- th- those that you're not, you have a weakness. So it's, you know, to be complete, you should have no weakness. So this was always my... You know, I was always very...... eh, particular on that, like it's where my weakness, where am I, where I don't feel good at it. If you put me in a position to struggle, how do I escape? How do I get out? Everything. Any submission locked, any position, you know, back, mount, e- everything. It's- doesn't matter which position I am, I practice over and over again so that when I- if I get there in a fighting situation, I will know how to get out. At least I will have a direction, you know, I will know this is my way out.

Lex Fridman 18:42 Do you practice both escaping the bad position and-

Roger Gracie 18:46 Always.

Lex Fridman 18:46 ...the, the transition into the bad position, avoiding it? (laughs) Because that's how it happens, you know, jiu-jitsu, you start in a neutral position.

Roger Gracie 18:57 No, the transition then- it then becomes, uh, the fight itself. You see? It's being there is the most important s- is when you're there, then you have to know how to get out. That- that's your weakness, how, ah, y- the- s- stopping the person getting there is something different, so they're two different things. It's you- you- you either you practice one or the other.

Lex Fridman 19:17 So but both are important, I guess.

Roger Gracie 19:18 Yeah, of course.

Lex Fridman 19:18 But the stopping the person is easier-

Roger Gracie 19:21 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 19:21 ...to practice 'cause that comes naturally-

Roger Gracie 19:22 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 19:22 ...in training.

Roger Gracie 19:23 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 19:24 What was, uh, the actual process? Like what was your biggest weakness throughout your, like just reme- remembering what was annoying to you to figure out?

Roger Gracie 19:32 Uh, I mean, uh, side control is always, uh, is always-

Lex Fridman 19:35 Bottom of side control.

Roger Gracie 19:36 Bottom. It's regardless how much you tr- you, you, you practice, it's not ever easy. You'll never be easy, but-

Lex Fridman 19:43 It's so annoying.

Roger Gracie 19:44 Yes, I know.

Lex Fridman 19:44 It makes no sense.

Roger Gracie 19:45 Yeah. Someone pins you down, he doesn't want to move much, he's a big and strong guy, regardless of who, it's not going to be easy to escape. So some situations are just hard.

Lex Fridman 19:54 That must be the... Sorry to interrupt. I'm interrupting Roger Gracie as he discusses jiu-jitsu. (laughs)

Roger Gracie 19:59 (laughs)

Lex Fridman 19:59 But, uh, you just made me realize if- if you're really good, if you're- you're- if you're going against, like the perfect jiu-jitsu competitor, probably side control might be one of the hardest positions to esc- is it the hardest position to escape?

Roger Gracie 20:14 It's one of them. If the person doesn't want to progress-

Lex Fridman 20:17 Right.

Roger Gracie 20:17 ...he just concern about-

Lex Fridman 20:18 So if they're stalling.

Roger Gracie 20:19 ...holding it. Yeah.

Lex Fridman 20:19 Yeah. Like the best pinners in the world, I mean, partially because I've just seen judo people that know how to pin.

Roger Gracie 20:25 Yeah, yeah.

Lex Fridman 20:25 They-

Roger Gracie 20:26 Go escape their side control is a nightmare.

Lex Fridman 20:28 (laughs)

Roger Gracie 20:29 It's a nightmare.

Lex Fridman 20:30 (laughs)

Roger Gracie 20:30 Doesn't matter how much you practice.

Lex Fridman 20:32 Yeah.

Roger Gracie 20:32 It's a nightmare.

Lex Fridman 20:34 And it's also just frustrating.

Roger Gracie 20:36 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 20:36 Uh, I think it- I guess it is also frustrating because a lot of people in that position will be about maintaining control and not progressing.

Roger Gracie 20:43 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 20:44 And usually people when they're in mount and in back control are usually trying to-

Roger Gracie 20:48 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 20:48 ...progress towards a submission which opens up opportunities for escape.

Roger Gracie 20:52 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 20:53 So what's the actual process of just time and time again putting yourself in side con- uh, bottom of side control?

Roger Gracie 21:00 Yeah, yeah. Over and over again, starting there, escape, get back, escape, get back. If he mount you, get back. Any situation outside that, stop, start again, stop, start again. And it has to be, I would say, five minutes, because it's the repetition that will teach you. You know, if you train, like three minutes on top, you have time to, you know, one thing and then time out. It's the repetition that over and over again that, you know, when you try the same move over and over again, then you see what can go wrong.

Lex Fridman 21:32 And is it understanding the details of the movement or actually doing the movement and feeling it?

Roger Gracie 21:36 It's b- it's both. First you have to understand the movement and then practice. But m- most important thing is defense, escape coming second. Because if, you know, he's attacking you, the one thing is if he's not trying to submit you, but the other one if he is. Let's say if he's a person who's very good, has a very good attack, the- the first thing is defense, not just escape. You can expose yourself to a even worse position, 'cause that is, is- is- is very risky. When you're trying to escape, you will always expose yourself to a worse position. So avoiding that it's, you know, first is defense, not getting caught, and then when you're escaping, don't be in a worse position than you are. (laughs)

Lex Fridman 22:20 So defense, um, in jiu-jitsu when you're wearing a gi, what does defense entail? Is it mostly grips? Is it mostly the positioning of your hips and legs? Is that-

Roger Gracie 22:30 It's- it's- it's- it's everything together because it's a whole body movement. It's, you know, it's a constantly moving your- your arms, legs, body. It's- it- they- they- you know, they have to- ev- everything works together.

Lex Fridman 22:43 Going back to the mind of that guy, uh, so confident, no fear at this point. Is there a bit of ego in there too?

Roger Gracie 22:53 Yes. Lik- like I say, no, I'm not gonna say I'm fear- I'm fearless. Of course this concerns... That fight, I would have to say was probably the fight that I got nervous the most walking in, because I knew what that meant, that fight. It mean everything for me, all my legacy was on the line, because if I lost that fight, I would- forever I will be number two.

Lex Fridman 23:21 Yeah.

Roger Gracie 23:21 Forever. And, I mean, Buchecha is- is a great, great guy, great competitor, jiu-jitsu's very good, but I'm better than him. I knew that. It's like-

Lex Fridman 23:32 But he's competing non-stop at that point. He's-

Roger Gracie 23:34 No, no. He's a- he's a great competitor, you know, taking nothing out of him. He's super tough, very, very tough, very good. He's probably the best competitor in jiu-jitsu and he won 13 time the world championship. I won ten. So as a competitor, you know, he gets more titles than I do. So- but in terms of, you know, analyzing the game, I consider technically better than him. So knowing all that, everything that I built, all my legacy, it's if I lose-

Lex Fridman 24:07 All is riding on this match.

Roger Gracie 24:09 If I lose this fight, I'm forever number two. (laughs)

Lex Fridman 24:13 ... and, uh, none of that is going, going through your mind that-

Roger Gracie 24:15 I, no, I knew. I mean, it's not at that moment that I s- I already knew that. I remember just before, you know, um, the, the curtains open. I'm standing and before they call my name, and, I mean, my legs were like, sh- (laughs) I feel the adrenaline kick in, all my legs, and I'm like, you know, I'm hitting the legs. I'm like, "Wake up." You know?

Lex Fridman 24:36 Yeah.

Roger Gracie 24:36 Get off, get the adrenaline off me, you know? It's, so, it's, it was, it was intense. It was intense.

Lex Fridman 24:43 And this was in Rio.

Roger Gracie 24:44 That was in Rio.

Lex Fridman 24:46 So-

Roger Gracie 24:47 My hometown.

Lex Fridman 24:48 So this is-

Roger Gracie 24:49 Huge crowd.

Lex Fridman 24:49 I mean, and, you know, Rio is, is not exactly known for its calmness-

Roger Gracie 24:54 (laughs)

Lex Fridman 24:54 ... in its fans. So this is, like, uh, wherever they hosted the Olympics the year before.

Roger Gracie 25:01 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 25:02 So this is, like, I mean, this, like, the whole basically martial arts community is watching this.

Roger Gracie 25:10 Watching that fight.

Lex Fridman 25:11 (laughs)

Roger Gracie 25:12 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 25:13 I mean, is there some, uh, was Renzo there?

Roger Gracie 25:15 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 25:17 (laughs)

Roger Gracie 25:17 Yeah. He was there.

Lex Fridman 25:18 So people are just, I mean, there's attention, and it's also, I mean, I don't know if you felt that in part, but you're also fighting for the Gracie name.

Roger Gracie 25:26 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 25:27 (laughs)

Roger Gracie 25:27 In the, in our hometown.

Lex Fridman 25:29 The greatest-

Roger Gracie 25:30 Where the Gracie really started, you know?

Lex Fridman 25:32 ... Gracie competitor of all time, arguably, (laughs) in the hometown.

Roger Gracie 25:37 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 25:37 I mean, okay. (laughs)

Roger Gracie 25:39 All my family, my best friends, my friends, everybody watching, everybody there. There was a lot of pressure, a lot.

Lex Fridman 25:47 S- and then, w- were you thinking that you would be able to submit him?

Roger Gracie 25:52 No. It's, at that point, like, I don't predict how the fight will go. That I never did because it is unpredictable. It's, I never try to set any strategy for any fight. I say, oh, okay, that I did, but that was the only time that I set any strategy into a fight. There was a 15 minutes fight there, and for, I said, "First five minutes, I'm gonna play defense." He's bigger, stronger, younger. I don't wanna play his game, and I know he comes in very fast. Every single fight he had, you know, he comes very aggressive. So my strategy walking into that fight, I say, "Five minutes, I'm gonna play defense." I'm not gonna try to attack. I'm not gonna try to match his pace. I already expected, you know, maybe I'm gonna start losing the fight because, you know, if he comes in, there's a risk of me maybe getting take down, you know, or something happen. I'm like, "I'm gonna stick to the game plan. Five minutes, I'm gonna start picking up the pace 'cause then it's 10 minutes to go," which 10 minutes a long fight. So I don't need to start fast, but I'm gonna start being more aggressive, and then, you know, try to take him down or pull guard, you know? But by then, I'm like, "That's as far as strategy goes." (laughs)

Lex Fridman 27:04 So no specific, uh, stay on the feet?

Roger Gracie 27:07 No.

Lex Fridman 27:07 Were you comfortable being both bottom and top in this-

Roger Gracie 27:09 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 27:10 ... strategically?

Roger Gracie 27:10 Yeah. I'm, I'm always confident being bottom or top. I prefer to be on top because being in the bottom, the person on top dictates the pace of the fight 'cause he's on top, over you. So I always prefer to be on top 'cause I can dictate the pace. I can implement my own pace. And being the bottom, they can slow me down, so it's harder. So if I can choose, I'll always be on top. But I think by then, I was like, it's, you know, five minutes, hit it. I'm like, "He's pretty big and strong. I'm gonna spend a lot of energy taking him down." Shoop, like, poor guard. (laughs)

Lex Fridman 27:47 How did it, how did it feel? So here, you're stepping in, by the way, puzzle mask? This is old school, as old school as it gets. So calm and relaxed here for people just listening or watching-

Roger Gracie 27:59 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 27:59 ... the early minutes of the match.

Roger Gracie 28:01 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 28:01 So just feeling it out. He seems pretty calm, too. He must be nervous, too. I wonder how-

Roger Gracie 28:05 No, but-

Lex Fridman 28:05 Did you ever talk to him? You guys are friends, right?

Roger Gracie 28:07 Yeah, yeah. We're friends.

Lex Fridman 28:08 (laughs) Did he ever say how nervous he was?

Roger Gracie 28:10 No. We never spoke about that fight.

Lex Fridman 28:13 No? (laughs)

Roger Gracie 28:14 No. (laughs)

Lex Fridman 28:17 (laughs) He probably lays, uh, late at night thinking about it.

Roger Gracie 28:21 Maybe. I don't know.

Lex Fridman 28:22 That SOB.

Roger Gracie 28:24 Yeah. I mean, so you see the first five minutes, you know, he kept, I knew what he was going to do and I study his game. His standup is most basic, is basic in take downs, uh, leg attacks, double leg. So he goes single or double, and he charges in. That is pretty much his standup game.

Lex Fridman 28:46 So you try, you get, you get a grip.

Roger Gracie 28:48 Yeah. That, we got penalized.

Lex Fridman 28:51 So do you like to, uh, use the, do you like to post with your left? You have a right foot forward usually? You're a righty, right?

Roger Gracie 28:59 I'm righty, but I know he wants my leg. So I'm, I'm, I'm playing my stance just because of his game. All, all, you know, all my grips at that, the first five minutes was to kind of try to neutralize his attacks.

Lex Fridman 29:12 So he wants to get your left leg?

Roger Gracie 29:13 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 29:15 Uh, yeah. Right there.

Roger Gracie 29:17 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 29:18 So how hard is that to stop that? Uh-

Roger Gracie 29:20 I mean, he felt pretty strong coming in.

Lex Fridman 29:22 (laughs)

Roger Gracie 29:23 (laughs) So I'm, you know, I'm pushing the head down, trying to play with his balance.

Lex Fridman 29:27 Yeah. Wow.

Roger Gracie 29:28 If, if you, if you see it, there was a pause. Go back there. He charged in, there's a pause, me standing in front of him.

Lex Fridman 29:38 Yeah.

Roger Gracie 29:39 I did that on purpose.

Lex Fridman 29:41 What do you mean?

Roger Gracie 29:43 Just to-

Lex Fridman 29:44 Be aggressive?

Roger Gracie 29:44 ... be in front of him 'cause, you know, he tried.

Lex Fridman 29:46 Yeah.

Roger Gracie 29:47 And I'm like, "You fail. I'm here."

Lex Fridman 29:50 (laughs) Does, uh, okay, so you could feel the frustration.

Roger Gracie 29:55 I could feel his frustrat- his frustration not be able to take me down.

Lex Fridman 30:00 Okay. So now, and this is just psychological battle, so basically-

Roger Gracie 30:03 And you see me walking straight into the middle of the mat, and he's circling out.

Lex Fridman 30:08 Yeah.

Roger Gracie 30:09 See, I'm going very slow, recovering.

Lex Fridman 30:11 And he's computing like, "Shit."

Roger Gracie 30:13 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 30:13 Okay. So-

Roger Gracie 30:14 Because he just made a, you know, effort trying to take me down. He needs to recover.And, I mean, you, you need to recover. The other guys, they are waiting for you.

Lex Fridman 30:22 Yeah. And do I take, do I go for another takedown? 'Cause th- this one failed.

Roger Gracie 30:28 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 30:28 Do I need to recalculate the strategy?

Roger Gracie 30:30 Yeah. And he kept trying over and over again, and keep failing. I think that frustrate him a lot on that fight. I felt, I felt him kind of slowing down suddenly because he was getting nowhere.

Lex Fridman 30:46 So we're five minutes in. Yeah. He keeps... So he never got that takedown in the, in the early...

Roger Gracie 30:53 No.

Lex Fridman 30:58 Let's see. So at this point, do you pull guard? Yeah. Okay.

Roger Gracie 31:01 So that's when I felt like he's, he's... Mentally, he's, he's not, he's worried now.

Lex Fridman 31:11 Did you try to pull a closed guard here?

Roger Gracie 31:13 No. I knew he was going to bring that knee in.

Lex Fridman 31:16 Okay.

Roger Gracie 31:16 So-

Lex Fridman 31:16 'Cause that's the defense against pulling closed guard.

Roger Gracie 31:18 Yeah. But I like that. What do you... I like people bringing their knee between my legs 'cause, see, I'm gonna close my guard, even with this leg in.

Lex Fridman 31:30 Okay. He's, he's, he's stopping the clo- well, this is, this is awkward, but I guess-

Roger Gracie 31:36 Because I, I was holding his arm. That's why he felt, he had no, no hand to post.

Lex Fridman 31:39 Got it. But still, it puts a leg in.

Roger Gracie 31:42 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 31:43 But you're able to close your guard.

Roger Gracie 31:44 Yeah. Around the-

Lex Fridman 31:45 So you're okay with that?

Roger Gracie 31:46 I do, I do that really well. I sweep people from that position a lot.

Lex Fridman 31:49 What's the sweep?

Roger Gracie 31:50 I just-

Lex Fridman 31:51 Just-

Roger Gracie 31:51 Just pushed.

Lex Fridman 31:52 Okay.

Roger Gracie 31:53 It's just a push.

Lex Fridman 31:53 Like, to your left side?

Roger Gracie 31:54 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 31:55 Okay. Because he has no... Oh, it's almost like a, you mean, you're basically around his back a little bit, like-

Roger Gracie 32:01 Yeah. And-

Lex Fridman 32:01 ... a drag situation.

Roger Gracie 32:01 ... he knew that, like, I swept a lot of people with that sweep. So you, you see he kept leaning to his left to my right.

Lex Fridman 32:09 Yeah.

Roger Gracie 32:09 So I want to push them to my left.

Lex Fridman 32:11 Yeah.

Roger Gracie 32:11 So you see him leaning over to my right a lot. But-

Lex Fridman 32:14 What's the right answer for him, to, like, roll or something to your foot?

Roger Gracie 32:16 No. I mean, he's stuck. He does not really... He's, he's stuck there.

Lex Fridman 32:20 Grip.

Roger Gracie 32:20 But the one thing he did, he kept off me completely. See, there, he's leaning-

Lex Fridman 32:25 Yes, yeah.

Roger Gracie 32:25 ... to, like, he's too afraid of my attack now.

Lex Fridman 32:28 Yeah.

Roger Gracie 32:28 Because he, you know, he should lean on me.

Lex Fridman 32:31 Yeah.

Roger Gracie 32:31 You know, you, you should bring the fight to me. So when I feel him, you know, like, I, I knew, he was like, he's too worried about my attacks now.

Lex Fridman 32:41 Oh, yeah. That's right. So he can't-

Roger Gracie 32:42 Yeah. Like-

Lex Fridman 32:43 If he comes back to the center, he has no, like-

Roger Gracie 32:45 Yeah. So he's not engaging. At that time, he's 100% just defending. So I felt that. I'm like, he's, he doesn't want to engage. And he's looking... I knew, at that point, he wants my foot 'cause our first fight, I had the exac- the same position. I wasn't holding his arm, and he went to attack my foot.

Lex Fridman 33:04 Mm-hmm.

Roger Gracie 33:04 Which he did, you know. He got into a tackle.

Lex Fridman 33:05 Like, a toe hold of what?

Roger Gracie 33:06 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 33:07 Okay.

Roger Gracie 33:07 Yeah. So I know he's looking at my foot.

Lex Fridman 33:10 Which foot? Sorry. The le- uh, your right foot?

Roger Gracie 33:12 Uh, my right, yeah, my right foot.

Lex Fridman 33:14 Okay. And so how you def-

Roger Gracie 33:15 But I'm holding his arms.

Lex Fridman 33:16 You're hiding it?

Roger Gracie 33:17 I'm holding his arm.

Lex Fridman 33:18 And now you're going to the back as an arm drag type of thing.

Roger Gracie 33:21 So the moment that I came off, now, um, he, I'm holding his arm, so he cannot come up. So he's, you know, I'm holding his left arm, so he cannot post a hand on the floor and come up.

Lex Fridman 33:31 And he's holding your right to try-

Roger Gracie 33:33 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 33:33 ... to get you-

Roger Gracie 33:34 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 33:35 (laughs) Basically, to prevent you from atta- attacking.

Roger Gracie 33:38 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 33:40 Oh, that's an interesting... And he rolls.

Roger Gracie 33:42 Yeah. He tried to, he tried to get me off balance. So see, now I'm switching, I switch the grip on his arm, so I can free my left arm.

Lex Fridman 33:51 Can I ask you a question? Like, uh-

Roger Gracie 33:54 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 33:54 ... was there a chance he sweeps you here?

Roger Gracie 33:57 I mean, there's always a chance, but very hard.

Lex Fridman 33:59 Like that.

Roger Gracie 33:59 Yeah. But see, my left arm is free.

Lex Fridman 34:01 Oh, so you can post?

Roger Gracie 34:02 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 34:03 Why was your left arm free? Oh, 'cause you're using it to... Got it. Got it. Okay. And now-

Roger Gracie 34:09 So I try the hook. Now, you will see-

Lex Fridman 34:13 He's still got your arm.

Roger Gracie 34:13 When, when... Yeah. But when I knew he's, he's panicking because he did a move that he completely opened himself up. Like, I'm holding his left arm, so by holding the arm, he's, that prevents him from defending the hook on that side because his arm is being held across. So the arm cannot block the hook.

Lex Fridman 34:35 Mm-hmm.

Roger Gracie 34:36 And, I mean, the, the, the-

Lex Fridman 34:38 The, the hook with your left leg?

Roger Gracie 34:39 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 34:40 Okay.

Roger Gracie 34:40 So you'll see, when he come up... But I would say, I mean, that's my guess, but Buchecha is, he's, he's a big guy, you know. He was like 110 kilos, 112, something like that.

Lex Fridman 34:51 Which is?

Roger Gracie 34:51 245.

Lex Fridman 34:52 Yeah. All right.

Roger Gracie 34:53 Yeah. So he's the-

Lex Fridman 34:54 What were you at the time? Less?

Roger Gracie 34:57 Uh, 220. Yeah. 220.

Lex Fridman 34:58 (laughs) A ni- a nice-

Roger Gracie 35:00 222, maybe.

Lex Fridman 35:01 ... slim 100 kilo. Okay.

Roger Gracie 35:02 Yeah. So, you know, his, his defense are not amazing. He's good, but, you know, he's not known to have amazing defense. So he, by being the big guy in the room when you train, you used it to get out of situation because of your size. You shake people off, you know. It's y- it's because of your size, you shake them off. You get off some bad positions. You can... I mean, I could feel in the first fight, I'm side control, you know. Suddenly, he explode out. So, you know, you s- I've, I've seen him doing that a few of his fights. Not, not in the most technical way, just, "I'm getting out." And he did because of his size. So he, and he did the same thing. Like, he tried to stood up when I'm on his back. He completely open up the hooks. He will see the next move, his head gonna come up, and he gonna try to get off the floor.

Lex Fridman 35:54 So basically, come up, shake you off kind of strategy.

Roger Gracie 35:57 And that was no defense for the hooks. I put both hooks in straightaway.

Lex Fridman 36:02 Uh, his arm is crooked again.

Roger Gracie 36:03 Yeah. I'm, I'm off balance. Yeah. See? That he... I didn't bring him up. He came up.

Lex Fridman 36:07 Yeah.

Roger Gracie 36:08 And now, I'm attacking his neck, and he's worried about the hooks. That's fatal mistake. That's... Like, defense always come first. Remember what I just said now?

Lex Fridman 36:21 Yeah.

Roger Gracie 36:21 Defense first, cape second. So he's now worried more about the points than his neck.So it was, uh, like a- a- a progression of mistakes. That's why I think he did, he got frustrated when he couldn't take me down.

Lex Fridman 36:36 Yeah.

Roger Gracie 36:36 And then when I pulled guard, he was, he was, he was frustrated that the fight wasn't going his way. You know, his, he's very good about taking down. He tried over and over again for five minutes.

Lex Fridman 36:45 And here, he was frustrated about the hooks.

Roger Gracie 36:47 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 36:47 So he's like, it's almost like the frustration, thinks like, "No, no, no, these hooks shouldn't be here."

Roger Gracie 36:51 Yeah. Like, I pull guard on the grips that I want. He's not comfortable inside my guard. He's not in a position that he wants to be. He's over-leaning to his left. You know, to- to- to- to not, he's not engaging or trying to pass. He's trying to get the foot, but his arm is trapped. He's gonna get nowhere. And then when I swept him, suddenly his world start collapsing. You know, he couldn't take me down. I pulled guard, arm swept, and he tried to roll me over. No, it didn't get me anywhere. The first movement that he tried to escape, I'm on his back. I mean, now he's lost.

Lex Fridman 37:25 Yeah. That, if you just go back to him standing up.

Roger Gracie 37:31 See, both hook goes in, no difference. Like, there was nothing up on the way of those hooks, because he tried to come up.

Lex Fridman 37:39 I think as he's c- coming up, you're, you're high enough on him to where the weight was just probably immense. It just felt-

Roger Gracie 37:48 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 37:48 ... too heavy.

Roger Gracie 37:49 (laughs)

Lex Fridman 37:49 Man, you gotta, you, you're already got, you're already, you're already going for the choke there. (laughs)

Roger Gracie 37:53 Yeah, of course. (laughs) There's no time to lose. (laughs)

Lex Fridman 37:57 Look at that.

Roger Gracie 37:58 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 37:59 So you're not, like, worried, "I'm gonna get shaken off." You're going for the cho-

Roger Gracie 38:02 No, I'm on his back.

Lex Fridman 38:02 Okay, you got your right hand on his lapel.

Roger Gracie 38:03 There's no shaking me off. I'm on your back now. (laughs)

Lex Fridman 38:06 (laughs) We're in this together.

Roger Gracie 38:07 (laughs)

Lex Fridman 38:07 Okay. And your, your right hand is, uh, opening up the lapel.

Roger Gracie 38:11 My right hand is holding his arm.

Lex Fridman 38:13 Oh.

Roger Gracie 38:13 I'm still holding the sleeve.

Lex Fridman 38:14 Oh, sorry.

Roger Gracie 38:14 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 38:15 Looked like, you're holding the sleeve, but-

Roger Gracie 38:16 I'm holding the sleeve, and I'm already going for the neck because it's timing.

Lex Fridman 38:21 At which point do you let go of the sleeve and open up, help with the lapel? Or you, do you not need it? Uh-

Roger Gracie 38:27 No, I, I did that. But first, I wanna try to make a grip. Like, ne- then I need to establish control before I let go of his arm.

Lex Fridman 38:34 Got it.

Roger Gracie 38:36 So I kept holding that a bit longer, and then when I felt, okay, I have a good control over the back, then I let go.

Lex Fridman 38:44 Do you, okay, so you have, like, a light grip on his lapel, but you're thinking, "You need to"-

Roger Gracie 38:50 No, I need to adjust that.

Lex Fridman 38:52 You need to adjust that.

Roger Gracie 38:52 Yeah. Now-

Lex Fridman 38:53 So you're, like, holding it there, and you're thinking, "Okay, at some point, I need to adjust this."

Roger Gracie 38:56 All, all I need, all I want is to get under his chin. Then I know it's- it's- it's, I mean, it's, now I can go for it.

Lex Fridman 39:02 Can you-

Roger Gracie 39:02 'Cause if it's over, there's no choke, right? I need, the wrist needs to be under. Got it?

Lex Fridman 39:06 Can you choke Buchecha-

Roger Gracie 39:07 No.

Lex Fridman 39:07 ... over the-

Roger Gracie 39:08 No, I can't. That's just not right.

Lex Fridman 39:10 Okay.

Roger Gracie 39:10 Anyway.

Lex Fridman 39:11 It's not right, or it doesn't work?

Roger Gracie 39:12 It, it both. It's not right, and it doesn't work. I mean, would you tap to choke on your chin? No, it's just pressure.

Lex Fridman 39:19 I've-

Roger Gracie 39:19 You, you hurt, but it's not gonna choke you out.

Lex Fridman 39:21 I don't know. I don't know. I'm not, let me argue, this, I love this.

Roger Gracie 39:24 (laughs)

Lex Fridman 39:24 Arguing with Roger Gracie about chokes.

Roger Gracie 39:26 (laughs)

Lex Fridman 39:26 This is great. Okay, like, clock choke. It's al- it was always interesting to me, 'cause in judo it's illegal to have the gi around the, um, the face. And so it was kind of liberating for me to be allowed to have a gi around the face.

Roger Gracie 39:40 (laughs)

Lex Fridman 39:41 No, it just be-

Roger Gracie 39:41 Liberating. (laughs)

Lex Fridman 39:43 No, that you don't have to worry about it. Like, uh, yeah, of course it's more effective to go under the chin, but I'm surprised, just bec- the amount of pressure, like-

Roger Gracie 39:49 It's all about how much you can take it.

Lex Fridman 39:51 It's the pressure.

Roger Gracie 39:51 You can take a lot.

Lex Fridman 39:52 But it feels like a ch-

Roger Gracie 39:53 No, it doesn't feel comfortable. I mean, sometimes on your mouth, it cuts your mouth. Now you're bleeding. It feels horrible.

Lex Fridman 39:58 No, but it feel, that's not the feeling. The feeling, it might not be a choke, but the feeling, like, like it's a pressure that everything's just closing in. I don't-

Roger Gracie 40:06 But, but it doesn't take you anywhere. Like, you're not gonna go to sleep. You-

Lex Fridman 40:09 You might not go to sleep.

Roger Gracie 40:10 So it's just pressure.

Lex Fridman 40:12 Yeah.

Roger Gracie 40:13 It's, so pressure, it hurts, it's uncomfortable, but it do- it is not gonna break your face, and it's not gonna put you to sleep. So if I don't get the neck, I don't go for the kill.

Lex Fridman 40:23 Okay.

Roger Gracie 40:24 I'm like, I'm- I'm holding the- the- the, his collar.

Lex Fridman 40:27 Mm-hmm.

Roger Gracie 40:28 Ah, you know, my- my wrist is almost under, uh, it's, you know, I'm- I'm trying to kind of dig in.

Lex Fridman 40:35 Got it.

Roger Gracie 40:35 If- if I can't dig in, then I will adjust the collar. But first, I need to dig in.

Lex Fridman 40:39 Oh, dig in first, then adjust?

Roger Gracie 40:40 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 40:40 But can you do all that with one hand, or no?

Roger Gracie 40:43 I did.

Lex Fridman 40:45 So you can tighten the choke with just one hand?

Roger Gracie 40:48 No. I- I need the second one to open the lapel.

Lex Fridman 40:50 To open the lapel?

Roger Gracie 40:51 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 40:51 But you're, like, digging in with one hand.

Roger Gracie 40:53 No, I'm digging in under the chin.

Lex Fridman 40:55 Under the chin, with one hand?

Roger Gracie 40:55 Under is under, now I need to go deeper.

Lex Fridman 40:57 But that, the going deeper requires a second hand.

Roger Gracie 41:00 It does.

Lex Fridman 41:00 Okay.

Roger Gracie 41:01 It does.

Lex Fridman 41:02 And but that requires you letting go of the other hand.

Roger Gracie 41:04 Yeah, I have to let go eventually. Yeah, see?

Lex Fridman 41:08 Oh, all right.

Roger Gracie 41:08 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 41:09 Well, that's over. (laughs)

Roger Gracie 41:10 Yeah. Because I'm already under his, like, the first hand got under the chin.

Lex Fridman 41:14 Mm-hmm. Do you need the, a hand on the second lapel?

Roger Gracie 41:18 Yeah, of course. Otherwise, he turns, and he's out.

Lex Fridman 41:20 That's to control the turning versus the tightening of the choke.

Roger Gracie 41:23 Yeah. It does both. It- it helps tie the ni- the collar and stop the person rolling out.

Lex Fridman 41:36 Were you feeling pretty good about this position?

Roger Gracie 41:41 Yes. (laughs)

Lex Fridman 41:43 Oh. (laughs)

Roger Gracie 41:43 I just felt it's getting tighter and tighter and tighter, tighter, because he wasn't super tight from the beginning. He wasn't, like, the perfect choke. So it was still, I mean, I knew it was, like, it's very close to the end, but, you know, he was, I still need to adjust. There was still the risk of maybe escaping.

Lex Fridman 41:58 Is it possible for his head to slip out?

Roger Gracie 42:00 Uh, it possible, yes. But I'm closing that gap. Yeah.

Lex Fridman 42:07 And here? What- what did that feel like? Relief?

Roger Gracie 42:13 Relief, like, awesome, amazing.

Lex Fridman 42:16 (laughs)

Roger Gracie 42:16 (laughs)

Lex Fridman 42:18 Somebody on Reddit ask, "Ask him about the cross-grip he used to sweep, followed with a genius grip switch when Buchecha was inverted." Did you use a cross-grip when you swept? Did you sweep-

Roger Gracie 42:29 I guess the cross-grip in the arm. That must be it.

Lex Fridman 42:31 Oh, that's the cross-grip.

Roger Gracie 42:32 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 42:32 Okay. Uh, wh- what's the genius behind that? Or was that just the-

Roger Gracie 42:36 (laughs)

Lex Fridman 42:37 ... uh, do you like that kind of, that kind of grip?

Roger Gracie 42:40 Yeah. Because I always like closed guard, and no one wants to be in anyone's closed guard, right? It's open guard is the step to pass. So everybody, when you try to close the guard, they bring their knee in mid, in the middle. Like if you, if, if you're not standing, if you lower on the ground, in the open guard, if you're close to me, you need that knee between. So it is a must. That's when I start developing the attack. You know, I, I managed to have long legs to close my legs around people even with that, and then I just developed that sweep.

Lex Fridman 43:13 When did you start developing that? Like, uh...

Roger Gracie 43:15 I, I don't remember when, but I would say before black belt.

Lex Fridman 43:19 Okay, so your answer to that is not to figure out how to prevent them from putting their knee in. Is there an answer to that?

Roger Gracie 43:27 No.

Lex Fridman 43:29 But good guys will always-

Roger Gracie 43:30 No, you can't-

Lex Fridman 43:30 ... try to get the knee in.

Roger Gracie 43:31 ... remove their leg out of the way. That's not possible.

Lex Fridman 43:33 Well, maybe off-balance them enough to-

Roger Gracie 43:35 No.

Lex Fridman 43:35 ... where it's not-

Roger Gracie 43:36 No.

Lex Fridman 43:36 Okay.

Roger Gracie 43:37 I mean, it, you, you can try, but like it's, it's hard. Even if you can off-balance, then you'll sweep them.

Lex Fridman 43:42 Right. So that knee's gonna, so you're gonna have to solve that problem.

Roger Gracie 43:44 That's a full sweep, yeah.

Lex Fridman 43:46 Okay.

Roger Gracie 43:46 Because that's, is, is the, is extremely common to have that. I mean, I, if, if I'm on your guard, open guard, you know, if you have your legs, if, and if I'm between both of your legs in the open guard, my knee will be between your legs, 'cause it, it's a must. My knee cannot be on the floor.

Lex Fridman 44:03 Since Renzo was there, what did he tell you before?

Roger Gracie 44:06 I think just motivate you. I think that's, Renzo always did that fantastically well, to motivate me. Like before a fight, a match, I think that, you know, the confidence, you know, his, you know, his energy being around you. It's, I think that's the, is, is, is the great thing to have Renzo in your corner is the motivation that he gives you.

Lex Fridman 44:28 What did you learn about jujitsu and life from Renzo Gracie? We got to hang out with him in, in Vegas a little bit. He's a character.

Roger Gracie 44:34 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 44:35 He's one of the, uh, historic coaches and jujitsu competitors, but also personalities in the martial arts world.

Roger Gracie 44:42 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 44:42 In, in the world in general. There's very few like him.

Roger Gracie 44:44 Renzo is a fantastic person. It's, it's like, you know, what I've learned most from him is like, it's, you know, you can take any challenge. It's, you know, doesn't matter when, where, what, you know, who. It's, you know, you have to be ready and, you know, with the war spirit that he has, he's, he know, he always took any challenge, ready or not ready. (laughs)

Lex Fridman 45:11 Was it you that said it or he said it where, uh, not until you go in, uh, you know, to do something difficult do you discover the strength that you have? So like, like if you really think about it, you might think that you don't, you're not good enough, you don't have the strength to take on something difficult.

Roger Gracie 45:33 I fully agree that thing. We are measured not when we are in the strongest, but when we are in the weakest. That's when we truly measure ourselves, our character, who we are. Not when we're in a position of power, when we're in a position of weakness.

Lex Fridman 45:47 Have you surprised yourself, like how damn good you are? Like, (laughs) is this, is this really how good I am in this situation? Where in retrospect you might think, "How the hell was I able to accomplish this?"

Roger Gracie 45:59 Not how good I am, because o- otherwise I wouldn't be there.

Lex Fridman 46:04 (laughs)

Roger Gracie 46:05 So, you know, being there in the first place, it's, it's already not a great thing. (laughs) But I say, you know, I've, every single time I found myself there, I was super proud that I've never cracked. Like, I've never gave up, ever, any second, any fight, never.

Lex Fridman 46:24 Never been broken in competition?

Roger Gracie 46:26 Never. Even... Uh, it's not about winning or losing. It's about you giving up. I've never doubt myself. I always fought to the very end, always. That, I'm most proud of. 'Cause there was moments, you know, it's, you're in a terrible position, you know. Mainly, like there was moments that I was super tired, but like exhaustive tired, when, and it was easy to give up, like I had nothing more to give. But I pushed. I took energy out of my soul-

Lex Fridman 46:59 Yeah.

Roger Gracie 46:59 ... I would have to say, 'cause when my body had zero, but my, you know, my spirit, my soul pulled it out.

Lex Fridman 47:07 Is that in part just not allowing yourself to have, um, to have, to ever, ever quit?

Roger Gracie 47:14 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 47:16 I have, um, one other thing I regret. I remember like a blue belt match. I remember it. I'm not gonna say who it was against.

Roger Gracie 47:24 (laughs)

Lex Fridman 47:24 But, um, I remember just being extremely exhausted and, um, just constantly fighting a guy who was a really good mount, really good guard passing. And I just remember, um, him passing my guard eventually, so it was just like a finals of one of the IBJJF tournaments. And then s- right away going to mount and just, I don't know, I, it was a f- the level of frustration, I mean, I quit at that point. So I remember that still. Like, I, it's not about losing, winning or losing, but I just remember I, I was like, like, I was like teary-eyed frustrated. And then I knew there was a lot of fight still left in, in there somewhere and I, I, I quit, and I regret that to this day.

Roger Gracie 48:11 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 48:11 'Cause, uh, I think that the reason I regret that is 'cause it gave me an option to, to not quit, in every other aspect of life.

Roger Gracie 48:18 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 48:18 Like that, this is an option.

Roger Gracie 48:21 Yeah. It is. (laughs)

Lex Fridman 48:23 (laughs) It sucks.

Roger Gracie 48:26 Yeah. It teaches you, you know? It makes us stronger.

Lex Fridman 48:30 It's like you said-

Roger Gracie 48:30 I think it made you stronger.

Lex Fridman 48:32 Uh, yeah, it makes you stronger that you did that to learn that, don't do that again. Um, but still, like you said, just going to sleep in training.I do think it made me weaker. It did make me weaker in the rest of my life, too. The- those, you know, I've quit a few times in my life on small things and you realize, okay, it's not that big of a deal. It's fine. Like, who cares?

Roger Gracie 48:54 (laughs)

Lex Fridman 48:54 Um, but that, uh, what you learn over time is that voice always comes there. Like, um, uh, obviously, maybe it does for you too, at the- even at the highest level of like, it's not that big of a deal. Like, it's okay to quit here.

Roger Gracie 49:07 (laughs)

Lex Fridman 49:07 Like, it makes sense. Everybody would understand. Um, you know. In some sense, like, you're, uh, you know, many people would say, "You're past your prime in this match with the Bureishwa." Like, it makes sense. You've been focusing on MMA, makes sense.

Roger Gracie 49:22 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 49:22 (laughs) Makes sense to lose. Yeah. Uh, I don't know. That- that's a weird voice. And, in some sense, uh, it's that voice and the voice that says, like, "Why are you doing this?" Like, "This is silly. D- doesn't make any sense. Just- just stop. Just stop. Just stop." (laughs)

Roger Gracie 49:39 (laughs) Yeah.

Lex Fridman 49:41 And, uh, shutting that voice down and never allowing yourself to quit, that's a really powerful thing. Like, everybody I've met, everybody that's successful, um... Yeah, down to the- even engineers, CEOs, Elon Musk, just never quitting. Like, when everybody around you says quit, never quitting. It's weird. I don't know what that is. Might be genetic.

Roger Gracie 50:04 (laughs)

Lex Fridman 50:04 It- it might be like using the stubbornness to just never allow yourself to, um, develop that. So basically developing a calluses to that voice that tries to tell you to quit. You never quit, huh? What would you attribute that to?

Roger Gracie 50:21 It's like how much you want to get to the destination you chose. Like, you know, it's how badly you want to get there. It's, if you quit, you're never gonna get there.

Lex Fridman 50:33 And you always wanted to.

Roger Gracie 50:35 I always wanted to.

Lex Fridman 50:37 Is there some thing you remember from that match? Some things that happened before and after that stand out to you? Just since in Rio.

Roger Gracie 50:44 Yeah. There was an interview, you know, like, prior to the fight. You know, there was a big fight, we were doing like media every day before. We, you know, me and him were meeting for media. And like five days before, you know, five, six days before, I'm quite chatty. It's, you know, the closer we get to the fight, the more focused I get, the less I tal- talk, joke around, playing, you know, with people. But I remember, I think it was maybe three or four days before, we were doing an interview together. I think my cousin, Kara, was there. She was doing one of the interviews with us. And I- I don't remember exactly what we were talking about, but I just remember we were talking about the fight, of course. And then it was, you know, we were standing beside each other and I'm like- and then I, you know, suddenly I jump him and grab him by the neck.

Lex Fridman 51:35 Mm-hmm.

Roger Gracie 51:36 I say, "Well, I'm going to tap you by the neck." And then he's like, you know, very shy.

Lex Fridman 51:39 Yeah.

Roger Gracie 51:40 And then I let go. I say, "No, I'm going to grab- tap you by the arm." (laughs) And I could feel, he was like- he wasn't comf- comfortable, you know, with being there. There was, you know, me saying that I'm gonna tap him out. There was, like I was so relaxed joking about it, but I'm joking that I'm gonna tap him out in a fight that we're gonna have in four days time. And yeah, I felt he was like not comfortable at all.

Lex Fridman 52:04 Do you think you got in his head a little bit?

Roger Gracie 52:05 Yeah, I did.

Lex Fridman 52:06 It gave you a little bit of confidence.

Roger Gracie 52:07 Yeah. Yeah.

Lex Fridman 52:08 You've said that jiu-jitsu is a reflection of your personality. So both your jiu-jitsu and your personality, there's a calmness. What is that? Why are you so calm? Is there like an ocean underneath that's boiling?

Roger Gracie 52:18 (laughs)

Lex Fridman 52:19 Is this developed or is this your personality? Are you basically leveraging who you are already to- to develop a game around the jiu-jitsu or the- the jiu-jitsu make you calm?

Roger Gracie 52:29 I think both. I- I was always very calm since I was a kid. You know, since very young. I was never very, you know, fiery person. So that is a reflection, you know, it reflected on my jiu-jitsu, my life, on my fights, the way I fight. So it's a direct influence of my personality. And I think it's also, in the day, you know, you develop the more- the more you practice, you know, the more you fight. It's like, you know, you don't want to get nervous, you don't want the adrenaline. And so you just learn how to shut that off from your mind. So the less I thought about it, you know, it's like how many times I fought. You know, let's say the week before the fight, that's when you start more conc- when you're concerned the most because now it's getting very close. Before, it was just far away, you know, it's- it's normal to think of the tournament, you get a bit nervous, but it goes away quick.

Lex Fridman 53:21 Mm-hmm.

Roger Gracie 53:22 But the fight, you know, the week before, now you're constantly thinking of that day. And every time you think, adrenaline pumps in, your heart accelerate, you know, it doesn't- you know, it makes it, it's like, why am I feeling this? What difference will it make? So you kind of, you're shutting that thought out of your mind because you don't want to feel the adrenaline, your heart accelerating. It's not gonna add you anything. So it's, you know, it's the practice also that I think I- it helped me to shut that off my mind.

Lex Fridman 53:51 Has that helped you in regular life?

Roger Gracie 53:52 Yeah. Of course. It's, you know, suddenly when you go into any- any situation that might be stressful, you know, like an important meeting or super whatever it is, it's like how much would you worry about that before? Worry is not going to help you anyway. It's the opposite. Just going to make you more nervous, your heart rate accelerate, your ability to think clearly is going to be damaged by that. So it's like the more calm, the more relaxed you are, the better you can think of.

Lex Fridman 54:24 Do you ever get angry?

Roger Gracie 54:25 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 54:26 Like in traffic?

Roger Gracie 54:27 (laughs)

Lex Fridman 54:28 Do you ever- do you ever get like not calm, just like you're screaming?

Roger Gracie 54:31 Not- not in a screaming sit-... No.

Lex Fridman 54:33 But just angry?

Roger Gracie 54:34 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 54:34 But the- what does angry look like? Is it still calm?

Roger Gracie 54:37 (laughs) Yeah. Like, you know, a few seconds of complaining, but then it goes away.

Lex Fridman 54:42 Have you ever like thrown a cell phone at a wall or something like that-

Roger Gracie 54:45 No.

Lex Fridman 54:45 ... out of anger? (laughs)

Roger Gracie 54:46 (laughs)

Lex Fridman 54:46 Just that- just-

Roger Gracie 54:47 No, I never get that angry (laughs) 'cause that's just silly. It's like it's- it's- it's- if- if I would have done that, I would not be able to control my emotions prior to a fight.... the opulent lifestyle reflection, yeah.

Lex Fridman 55:00 Yeah, so that, like, l- letting yourself lose, uh, control.

Roger Gracie 55:02 Yeah. Uh, losing control, that will reflect other times.

Lex Fridman 55:07 Do you think it has, uh, make you, in part made you more emotionally closed off from the world? Like, you're, you're, it's harder for you to be vulnerable to others?

Roger Gracie 55:17 Probably. Yeah, but I, I heard that a few times, (laughs) that I'm emotionally closed.

Lex Fridman 55:23 Mm-hmm.

Roger Gracie 55:23 It's, yeah, maybe. That, I think that influenced it, yeah.

Lex Fridman 55:27 Have you ever cried at a movie?

Roger Gracie 55:29 Yeah. For, not for many years, but for, I think maybe I'm getting older. (laughs)

Lex Fridman 55:33 Do you remember the movie?

Roger Gracie 55:34 Something of, just a silly movie.

Lex Fridman 55:36 (laughs)

Roger Gracie 55:36 I mean, it's, no, I mean, I-

Lex Fridman 55:38 Is it The Notebook? (laughs) .

Roger Gracie 55:39 (laughs) . No, I mean, I would say the last few years, I've been crying more than before, for some reason. I don't know why. Like, silly movies, like nothing suddenly brings tears to my eyes.

Lex Fridman 55:51 Yeah.

Roger Gracie 55:52 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 55:52 Well, I've already, uh, already just having met you and interacted with you, I can see that you're kind of opening your heart and mind to the world. You could, you could see, like, here's this historically great athlete now, like, the wars have been fought and you're now like waking up to the world. It's, it's cool to see.

Roger Gracie 56:12 Probably I'm bringing my guard down now. I don't have to-

Lex Fridman 56:14 Yeah. Yeah. (laughs) .

Roger Gracie 56:14 ... keep it up all the time. (laughs) .

Lex Fridman 56:15 Don't have to, don't have to fight. (laughs) . You can even do some podcasts.

Roger Gracie 56:19 (laughs)

Roger Gracie 56:20 .

Lex Fridman 56:20 Um, you said you watch, like, movies beforehand sometimes, mentioned Braveheart. What were you doing? Did you watch something beforehand, like the day before?

Roger Gracie 56:28 I used to, yeah. I, there was, like, I think Braveheart and, uh, Gladiator. I mean, there's a few others that I've always watched the day before, 'cause the day before I used to do nothing.

Lex Fridman 56:41 Mm-hmm.

Roger Gracie 56:41 I just want to be at home, in bed, watching TV, like saving, you know, energy, stretching by myself. So it was like, it's, I just want to save energy. I don't want to waste my energy going out, going around. So, you know, it's, those are the movies that I always like to watch, kinda try to bring some, you know, hyper-

Lex Fridman 56:59 Yeah.

Roger Gracie 56:59 ... excitement. It's like, you know, I'm getting ready to war tomorrow, so I'm like, let me watch some movies that, like, brought the, you know, some, that warrior spirit into me.

Lex Fridman 57:09 Yeah. Yeah, what is that about human nature? Braveheart, I love-

Roger Gracie 57:12 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 57:12 ... even more. Should you put your life on the line for a thing that matters or run away just so you can live? It's like, running, you may live, but, like, years from now when you look back at this moment, uh, would you trade all the days-

Roger Gracie 57:28 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 57:29 ... just to come back and to this moment?

Roger Gracie 57:32 And tell Dangly? (laughs) .

Lex Fridman 57:34 (laughs) . You could take our lives, but you can't take our freedom.

Roger Gracie 57:36 But you cannot take our freedom. (laughs) .

Lex Fridman 57:37 I mean, oh man. What is that about human nature? Um,

Lex Fridman 57:44 is there some aspect of, like, the glory you were able to achieve being more important than anything else? There's some aspect of that that, that's, that's greatness, you know?

Roger Gracie 57:55 Yeah. I never pursue glory, so it's, it just came, you know, it is, you, you comes with it, but that was never my goal. I never care for glory.

Lex Fridman 58:07 Were you able to experience, like, like, I'm at the height of this thing? Whatever, whatever humanity is able to achieve in various things, holy shit-

Roger Gracie 58:17 I'm flying. I, I felt like I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, no one can touch me. I can destroy people. Yeah.

Lex Fridman 58:26 Prolonged periods of time or just, uh, momentarily?

Roger Gracie 58:32 I, I always knew, you know, from b- before I got to a black belt that, like, I, I, you know, it's, I can be great, because my progr- you know, I used to train with the best in the world. I used to, you know, for many years, and I used to see my progression w- with, and everybody else. So I, I knew I was getting somewhere. I knew I could be the best, and that was, that was always my goal since very, very young, and I always believed that I could be. And that, over the years, that kept telling me over and over again, because I'm getting better and better faster than everybody else. So it's, I just need to carry on with what I'm doing.

Lex Fridman 59:14 But I think you've said that you wanted to and maybe you thought you could be the greatest of all time, like, at the very beginning, like when you sucked. (laughs) .

Roger Gracie 59:26 Yeah. Yeah, not, not the greatest of all time because... And I never really thought about that. Uh, but I thought I'm gonna be the best in the world when I sucked.

Lex Fridman 59:35 When you what?

Roger Gracie 59:35 When I sucked.

Lex Fridman 59:36 So, okay, so what is that, uh, what is that, like that self-belief? Is there a component to that self-belief being a prerequisite?

Roger Gracie 59:46 It's, it's difficult to say because that was a decision, I think. Like, why did I believe that I could be? I, I can't tell you that 'cause I don't know. Wh-

Lex Fridman 59:56 But you think you decided to be that.

Roger Gracie 59:57 I decided to be, I decided to be and I believed I could.

Lex Fridman 1:00:00 You think there was, like, a day somewhere when you were young where you were like-

Roger Gracie 1:00:04 No.

Lex Fridman 1:00:04 ... huh, you're sitting on a couch eating Cheetos.

Roger Gracie 1:00:06 (laughs) . I don't think it was, um, a, a day, like a moment, because for many years is I wasn't really training much as a child. Uh, you know, I've done a bit of... I used to train and then stop, done a bit of judo. Never stay away from it much, but until, you know, like, like from 10 to 14, I barely trained jujitsu much. I used to... There was no Gracie school near where I used to live and I was doing, there was a jujitsu, a judo school I used to go twice a week. I went to a jiu-jitsu tournament. I lost in five seconds, left crying. (laughs) . The guy, he pulled me in five seconds. Anyway, so when I was 14, I went to the south of Brazil to see my uncle Helio to spend sum- summer holidays. I was there for, like, four weeks I think. And I, when I got there, my cousin Hollis was living with him. Hollis, like...... bigger than me. It was, I think four years, four years older. So I was 14, he was already 18, 17, 18, purple belt competitor. And I think that was the first time in my life that I felt what it mean, what it meant to be a Gracie, in terms of having a school, teaching, training, you know, living that, you know, jiu-jitsu lifestyle, what a Gracie mean to be, and I've just, I've loved that. I was out of shape. My uncle was like, you know, was incentivizing me to lose weight, to train. "But you're not training, why?" You know, it's like, "You're out of shape, you need to diet." So I used, I used to run every day. I was eating super well. I start, you know, I started... That when I start changing. So when I go back to Rio, I was super motivated to follow up, carry on. And he, you know, he invited me to go back there to live with him, but I couldn't. It was too soon, and to change schools and everything. My mom said, "No, but maybe next year, if you want to go, you can." So I kept that in my mind. Next year, I, I moved to the south to live with him. I was 15. And it was him, my uncle Helio, and my uncle Clelin. They both used to live very close to each other. They also have their own schools close to each other. So I was with both, and I stayed there for almost a year. You know, I was the youngest in the academy. There was some, you know, blue, purple belts, normal guy, but they're already competing, training ahead of me, and I just joined the group of training. I didn't compete while I was there because there was no competition back then, and I wasn't really ready. But it's not about competing, it's more about the training. And I start training every day, start improving, and year after that when I came back to Rio, I was already on a mission. I was like, "I love this." I'm just carry on training every day with my uncle Carlos, Carlos Gracie Jr., Gracie Barra. And the one I got there, I was training a little bit there before, but I just 14, 15. But when I got there, there was a, you know, there was one of, that was one of the most competitor, one of the biggest jiu-jitsu schools at the time. There were so many high level world champions, competitors, in every single belt. And so, and I've kind of joined in with that and I've carried on. I don't remember when, but I remember, you know, looking and saying, "I'm gonna be the best in the world." But I used to be... I was at the bottom (laughs) of the stairs, you know. No one really believed me. I didn't shout, you know, to, to the skies, but, you know, I told a few people, I'm like, "I'm gonna be the best." And that's I think, uh, I was just losing, but I've never ever doubt, I've never divert from that mission, I would say.

Lex Fridman 1:03:50 Did anyone believe you when you said you're gonna be great?

Roger Gracie 1:03:53 No. Nobody.

Lex Fridman 1:03:53 Did it matter?

Roger Gracie 1:03:54 Did it matter? I don't care. I don't need.

Lex Fridman 1:03:56 Even people that, like, love you?

Roger Gracie 1:03:58 Everybody. My mom, my dad. I mean, no one thought... No one in my family thought I was gonna be here today. Nobody. Because I just started late, you know. I've, I've never had any start that people, "Oh, that kid's gonna be really good."

Lex Fridman 1:04:14 Yeah.

Roger Gracie 1:04:14 No. I was a chubby kid that didn't barely train. I mean, people used to look at me, "He's just another Gracie that's, you know, want more."

Lex Fridman 1:04:22 What do you learn from that? Do you think most people lose that self-belief, they quit?

Roger Gracie 1:04:30 Of course.

Lex Fridman 1:04:30 When everyone around them doesn't believe?

Roger Gracie 1:04:31 Yeah. I think if, if... Those that need approval, yes.

Lex Fridman 1:04:37 I see you shouldn't have approval.

Roger Gracie 1:04:39 I never need approval from anyone. I don't care if you believe me or not. If you... Not my problem.

Lex Fridman 1:04:46 It's tough. It's tough. I don't need approval, but you're surrounded by people older, wiser, better than you, and they're kind of directly or indirectly saying, "You stop being silly, kid."

Roger Gracie 1:05:02 No. No one ever told me that because I, I... Is not... That was not something that I used to say all the time. I maybe say it very, very few times.

Lex Fridman 1:05:10 Oh, you just go... You know, maybe that's the secret, is don't say it.

Roger Gracie 1:05:13 Of course. I mean, if you start shouting, then you're just being silly. Then it's not what you really want. Then you're saying that for another reasons, if you say it over and over again, because you shouldn't. I mean, that's... Why?

Lex Fridman 1:05:24 Well, uh, to push back, one of the reasons you might want to say it is to find the right people that believe in you.

Roger Gracie 1:05:30 Yeah, but more if you say over and over again.

Lex Fridman 1:05:32 Yeah.

Roger Gracie 1:05:33 Then it's just... Then you're just bragging.

Lex Fridman 1:05:36 Sure.

Roger Gracie 1:05:37 'Cause one thing is to say it, but the other one is to do it.

Lex Fridman 1:05:41 Yeah.

Roger Gracie 1:05:42 So it's... You know, you said it once or very few times, but now you have to do it. Saying is not helping you getting there.

Lex Fridman 1:05:50 Was there sacrifices you had to make?

Roger Gracie 1:05:52 Everything. Everything. That was my priority in life. Everything was secondary.

Lex Fridman 1:05:57 Like social life?

Roger Gracie 1:05:59 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 1:06:00 Career paths?

Roger Gracie 1:06:01 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 1:06:02 All this?

Roger Gracie 1:06:02 Everything.

Lex Fridman 1:06:04 (laughs) And as... From 14, 15, 16, as you get better and better and better and better, it was just becoming sharper, the focus on this thing?

Roger Gracie 1:06:13 Yeah, yeah. It's just over and over again, over and over again. It's, you know, it's just training, training, training. And I mean, how many times I lost, I, I have no clue.

Lex Fridman 1:06:25 So on the mat, you were getting beat up?

Roger Gracie 1:06:27 On the mat, I'm getting smashed by everybody. People my age, I was chubby. I was physically weak. I mean, I'm tall, but physically, I'm not physically strong. I'm normally strong for my size, but physically, if you want to measure strength, I'm weak, because, you know, we can measure strength lifting weights. I'm weak. I don't lift... I lift weight same as people much lighter than me. Everybody my, my weight lifts heavy, heavier weights than me.

Lex Fridman 1:06:57 And then people that train with you often talk about how strong you are?

Roger Gracie 1:07:00 They think I'm super strong.

Lex Fridman 1:07:01 Yeah.

Roger Gracie 1:07:02 Because I generate a lot of strength. I can create...I- I- I put myself in the right angles so then I can be strong. I'm not strong. And the only person who I listen to saying that is, uh, Cumprido, one guy that I fought, Rodrigo Medeiros.

Lex Fridman 1:07:20 Mm-hmm.

Roger Gracie 1:07:20 I fought him a few times, and he's the only one that I heard saying about me, it's like, "No, Roger's not strong. He's not. He's technical and he's- he can create strength, but he's not strong."

Lex Fridman 1:07:33 He meant that as a compliment?

Roger Gracie 1:07:35 Yeah, I think so. No, it's- I think he was honest because-

Lex Fridman 1:07:38 Yeah.

Roger Gracie 1:07:39 ...he- I think he's the only one who could see that.

Lex Fridman 1:07:41 Yes.

Roger Gracie 1:07:42 So I think that's a compliment.

Lex Fridman 1:07:43 So he's technically g- really strong.

Roger Gracie 1:07:45 He's good.

Lex Fridman 1:07:45 So you had an incredible match with h- him.

Roger Gracie 1:07:47 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 1:07:49 Is there, um, insight you have about how you went from a person, uh, who was not very good, but had a- a dream, uh, a confident dream, uh, a vision, to somebody that was actually good? Was there something to the practice sessions? Were you getting reps on specific techniques?

Roger Gracie 1:08:14 I'd never done anything special because I mean- and I'm in a gym training equally with everybody else. So I've never did anything on the side different than anybody else. So I- you know, I- I was in the school training the exact same way as everybody else.

Lex Fridman 1:08:27 Well, in terms of schedule, yes. But what was- can you reverse engineer what- what was going through your mind? 'Cause there's so many different ways to actually mentally approach the same exact training session.

Roger Gracie 1:08:37 I'm gonna try to beat you.

Lex Fridman 1:08:40 Okay. So it's- uh, in some part, it's competitive.

Roger Gracie 1:08:43 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 1:08:43 Like, at the core of it is, "I want to be better than these particular people."

Roger Gracie 1:08:49 Uh, you're gonna keep beating me. I'm gonna keep coming back at you.

Lex Fridman 1:08:52 And to do that-

Roger Gracie 1:08:53 Over and over again.

Lex Fridman 1:08:53 ...I have to solve problems, I have to-

Roger Gracie 1:08:54 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 1:08:54 ...figure out how to do stuff well.

Roger Gracie 1:08:56 Yeah. You catch me once, I'm gonna keep on coming, trying to not get- get- get caught then.

Lex Fridman 1:09:02 At which point did you develop a game that was basically the white- the famous black belt game of the very basics, the very fundamentals of jujitsu? Like, saying, "I'm going to beat you-"

Roger Gracie 1:09:16 Never- I- I- there was never-

Lex Fridman 1:09:17 "...with basics."

Roger Gracie 1:09:17 ...there was never a conscious decision to- to try the- you know, to have a basic jujitsu. First, I think there's a big misconception there.

Lex Fridman 1:09:27 Okay. What's the misconception-

Roger Gracie 1:09:28 My jiu-jitsu is not basic.

Lex Fridman 1:09:29 ...Mr. Roger Gracie? It's not- you're right.

Roger Gracie 1:09:31 It's not basic. It's not old school. I think people, they just don't see that. It's extremely complex, uh, in- in a way that is- is- is- people, they cannot copy. I teach people-

Lex Fridman 1:09:43 Mm-hmm.

Roger Gracie 1:09:43 ...you know, I can teach you the cross-collar choke. But the one thing that people, they don't realize is not the move, is you need to practice the movement till you learn. It's the practice over and over again. Like, it took me years. When I say years, I'm- like, years after I was a black belt, I was able to choke people out with a cross-collar choke in their mouth effe- effectively, years after I got my black belt. So it's not something that you learn first day, first week. So I can teach you. It- it makes no difference. You- you know the theory, but until you apply it, I mean, it will help you, of course. The more details you learn, you know, the- the- the more tools you have to practice. But it's still very complex, because it's not about the move itself. It's about how can you control the movement of the other person? He's resisting, you're blocking. You cannot predict what he will do, and he's doing a whole bunch of moves to- to block you every single move you do a step of the way, 'cause it's a- it's- it's a progression of move from beginning to end till I apply the choke. It's a progression of move. And it- there's not one way to get that. There's many ways, because how many ways can you block? You can put your arm in every single angle. We have both arms you can bridge. So it's dealing with all that. That is the- uh, that is the complica- complexity of the position. But that goes for everything, like every single move, my strong moves I would say, it took me years developing them. Years. So it's- and you're gonna tell me that's basic? So go try and do it. What the other person is defending, that's the thing, because most of the things that I do, I've been doing them for years, and I- they know that I'm gonna do, and I can still get it most of the times. That's the hardest, is when they know what's coming and you can still do it.

Lex Fridman 1:11:42 And you- you said that the way you're able to do that, you- you just have to do it right?

Roger Gracie 1:11:48 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 1:11:49 What do you learn by doing all the steps along the way? And just for people who don't know, cross-collar choke from the mount. So jujitsu starts in a neutral place. There's people on their feet, and then you either- then you get to the ground somehow, and then there's a person on top and on bottom, and then there's a guard with the legs between the two people, and then you can get past the guard. Pro- as you get past the guard and you- uh, into side control and so on, you get more and more and more dominant positions. And so mount is considered to be one of the most dominant positions. It's when you're past their legs, sitting on top of their stomach, um, putting pressure on them. And col- cross-collar choke is using their jacket to, um- how would you explain that? To- to choke them with their jacket.

Roger Gracie 1:12:36 So I have the collars. I put my both hands on your collars, and when I squeeze, it- it- it- it press your neck, so it blocks the vein, you- you go to sleep. So it's a- you- you choke people with your hands and the wrists. You put them, you know, you grab the collars to get the wrists around people's neck, and you squeeze.

Lex Fridman 1:12:53 Yeah. The discovery of that is fascinating. I mean, 'cause it's- it's interesting. It's like, um, you know, you could imagine there's all kinds of ways to choke a human being. Uh, well, animals do it with their, like, mouth.Right? They put, like, their jaws around the... And the fact that you can kind of discover this methodology of the right kind of positioning, and then it becomes an art form, like of, "Why this? Why not this?" Right? Or, "Why not this?" or something. Like, to figure all that out.

Roger Gracie 1:13:23 I think we pr- we practice, that will come easy.

Lex Fridman 1:13:25 Over time you figure out what-

Roger Gracie 1:13:27 Yeah. I agree, yeah.

Lex Fridman 1:13:27 ... works and what not. And you, and then-

Roger Gracie 1:13:28 Yeah. Yeah.

Lex Fridman 1:13:29 And then more, further and further details and subtleties start to emerge. Anyway, on that process of beating, of being able to beat some of the best people in the world, and the thing they know is coming, what did... W- what's the difference between a white belt doing that and Roger Gracie doing that, the thing that's so hard to explain? What do you think you're picking up? Is it some tiny, tiny details and muscle movements?

Roger Gracie 1:13:53 It is. It's, uh, many tiny details, because it, it's the whole movement itself. It's the perception from beginning to end. Like, every step of that movement, it's important and precise. So it's, you know, you miss one s- one detail on the way, you collapse. So when I say with a black belt, the black belt has no control over the whole movement. He thinking beginning and end. So he goes straight to, you know, straight to your neck. Regardless, he cannot read the other person. If it's, you know, w- if it's time to let go, if it's a time to go for a neck, should I be pushing here before I get my hand in? You know, is, is, is this the right time to go deep or should I deal, deal with this first before the second hand?

Lex Fridman 1:14:37 That's at the beginning, so it's at that, the white belt.

Roger Gracie 1:14:39 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 1:14:39 At the very beginning of the journey.

Roger Gracie 1:14:41 Yeah. The white belt, they just think finish.

Lex Fridman 1:14:44 Yeah.

Roger Gracie 1:14:45 (laughs)

Lex Fridman 1:14:46 (laughs) And then as you get progressed, you s- see that there's like this giant tree of possibilities that you're, uh, almost feeling your way down. I mean, would you be able to teach? Exp- do you even know what you're doing?

Roger Gracie 1:15:02 By the details.

Lex Fridman 1:15:03 Okay. But it's hard to convert into words probably. Uh-

Roger Gracie 1:15:07 No.

Lex Fridman 1:15:08 ... as possible?

Roger Gracie 1:15:09 Then you don't know what you're doing.

Lex Fridman 1:15:10 Okay.

Roger Gracie 1:15:12 (laughs)

Lex Fridman 1:15:12 Uh, so what is, what, what are some most important details that you could say maybe positioning of the hand, the gripping? Is it the positioning of your body, the posture? Is there some interesting like insights that people miss out here?

Roger Gracie 1:15:27 It, it's a, it's a com- it's a combination, because first you have to put your body in a very strong position that you don't require your hands to hold the mount. So the choke is there, that's first, because it, I cannot u- I cannot use my hands on the floor to stop you escaping.

Lex Fridman 1:15:42 Yeah.

Roger Gracie 1:15:43 So if I have to, my body has to handle that. The way I position myself, I have to do it in a way that don't require my hands for balance.

Lex Fridman 1:15:52 Okay. Why is the mount such a dominant position? Doesn't make any sense, right? Like, you're just sitting on top of the stomach of a person.

Roger Gracie 1:15:58 It makes all sense. If you think, what's ... re- re- forgot, forget fighting, forget jiu-jitsu. Like, you've never trained. What's the one position, the most dominant position you can get over another human being? One. The most, for you, wh- which one it is? Like, the most dominant position that you can get over another human being?

Lex Fridman 1:16:22 So if we were just, 'cause the way I- I think about it is putting myself in like a six, seven, eight-year-old self without knowing any martial arts, and I had an older brother who would beat the shit out of me. Uh, yeah, it probably was mount. It, it wa- (laughs) but, well, yes, okay. So we both didn't know. But if you knew something, it'd probably be back control.

Roger Gracie 1:16:46 If in a back control, you're under the other person, the thing being under is the most dominant position it can be over another person.

Lex Fridman 1:16:54 You mean like a back control?

Roger Gracie 1:16:55 If I'm on your back-

Lex Fridman 1:16:57 Oh, like that. Yeah.

Roger Gracie 1:16:57 ... you can move, you can roll. I cannot stop you rolling.

Lex Fridman 1:17:00 Yeah.

Roger Gracie 1:17:00 Uh, you, maybe you could even stand up. How dominant is that?

Lex Fridman 1:17:04 Yeah, but if we're the same size, both untrained-

Roger Gracie 1:17:07 If I'm that way, doesn't matter.

Lex Fridman 1:17:08 Have you seen kids do, they do that c- okay. Mount looks and feels like dominance when you're two eight-year-olds fighting. (laughs) Okay. I don't know, I don't know why it feels that way. It could be some animalistic thing. Maybe it is actual dominance. I don't know, but it feels like if you're untrained, you can just buck your way out of it. It feels unstable. It feels unstable to hold mount unless you know what you're doing, right?

Roger Gracie 1:17:32 No.

Lex Fridman 1:17:33 No?

Roger Gracie 1:17:33 Well, if your, if your mount you put both of your hands on the floor-

Lex Fridman 1:17:35 Yeah.

Roger Gracie 1:17:36 ... ju- just your hands, do you think it's easier to take somebody off?

Lex Fridman 1:17:40 Yeah, maybe not.

Roger Gracie 1:17:41 Do you think it's easy-

Lex Fridman 1:17:42 That's tough.

Roger Gracie 1:17:42 ... to remove the hand and bring them out? The hand's on the floor, arm straight, I'm leaning in.

Lex Fridman 1:17:48 Yeah, you're right.

Roger Gracie 1:17:48 It's hard.

Lex Fridman 1:17:50 You're right.

Roger Gracie 1:17:50 I mean, you don't need to know fighting to hold yourself there.

Lex Fridman 1:17:53 Yeah. But you're right. When you take the arms off and balancing, then it gets tricky. 'Cause when you're trying to, um... I think what happens, I'm thinking back to eight-year-old.

Roger Gracie 1:18:04 (laughs)

Lex Fridman 1:18:04 'Cause my, my brother's five years older than me, and he would do the usual, like, "Stop hitting yourself," thing. And he, I think he would be in mount and like hitting me with my own hands. Uh, uh, from out of place of love, of course. Um, I love him deeply and it was very formative and a positive experience for me. Okay. Um, I think, yeah, the weakness is when he takes... well, when the person who has you mount takes their arms off to, to do something.

Roger Gracie 1:18:32 But even if you keep your hands up in the air when I'm falling-

Lex Fridman 1:18:36 Yeah, you can. Yeah.

Roger Gracie 1:18:36 ... when I'm falling, so.

Lex Fridman 1:18:38 I'm speaking about untrained people. I feel like they get greedy. They try to do stuff.

Roger Gracie 1:18:43 The other day I watched my nine-year-old daughter.

Lex Fridman 1:18:46 Yeah.

Roger Gracie 1:18:46 We, we in our friend's house. There's a whole bunch of kids there, they playing. And when I looked, she's mounting a boy her age, her size. He cannot escape.

Lex Fridman 1:18:57 Wow. She probably has seen-

Roger Gracie 1:18:59 No, she trains.

Lex Fridman 1:19:00 ... some footage. Yeah.

Roger Gracie 1:19:00 She's been training for, I would say, a year and a half.

Lex Fridman 1:19:02 Okay.

Roger Gracie 1:19:02 Which is not much. I mean, she has a nine-year-old daughter, a girl over a boy.

Lex Fridman 1:19:06 Has she seen footage of you? Maybe she picked up from that?

Roger Gracie 1:19:08 No, but she appreciate. She been training for a year and a half, so she has an idea what mount is. But-I mean, in terms of our skills, I don't ever taught him the mount.

Lex Fridman 1:19:18 Yeah.

Roger Gracie 1:19:19 He should has, you know, she had lessons at the academy, like any other kid.

Lex Fridman 1:19:24 Did you make him cry or...

Roger Gracie 1:19:25 No, but he couldn't escape.