Roger Gracie: Greatest Jiu Jitsu Competitor of All Time | Lex Fridman Podcast #343

1. 0:00 – 0:25

   Introduction

   1. RGRoger Gracie0:00

      In my mind, I have to top everybody else. Winning is not enough.

   2. LFLex Fridman0:06

      The following is a conversation with Roger Gracie, widely considered to be the greatest jujitsu competitor of all time. This is the Lex Friedman Podcast. To support it, please check out our sponsors in the description, and now, dear friends, here's Roger Gracie.

2. 0:25 – 8:16

   The moments before a match

   1. LFLex Fridman0:25

      Let's start with possibly the greatest match in jujitsu history, your second match against Buchecha. Let's go through the details. Let's go through the whole thing. So the walk leading up to it, you always do this walk-

   2. RGRoger Gracie0:37

      (laughs)

   3. LFLex Fridman0:37

      ... this epic walk. You posted on Instagram, Renzo posted on Instagram.

   4. RGRoger Gracie0:41

      Yeah.

   5. LFLex Fridman0:41

      This calm walk towards the mat. Well, let's- let's go to that match in particular. What was going through your mind? You'd been away from competition, facing probably one of the greatest, and at- at that time, many people considered the greatest jujitsu competitor of all time in Buchecha. Uh, here's the old man-

   6. RGRoger Gracie1:00

      (laughs)

   7. LFLex Fridman1:00

      ... the old-timer getting back at, uh, out there. What were you thinking?

   8. RGRoger Gracie1:03

      Yeah. Uh, I think that's the first time since probably I got my black belt that I wasn't the favorite walking into a fight, I have to say. Like, a lot of people thought, considered him the favorite. I mean, understandable, you know, I was out of competition for a while, and he was just winning everything. So, you know, you're saying about the walk. Like, for me, you know, the fight starts way before the referee say go, you know? It's the, it's all the focus and concentration that I think is very important for me to start before, like, you know, I almost walk blind to the match. Many times I passed, like, great friends and I couldn't see anyone, you know? They're trying to talk to you, and I'm like, I'm 100% focused on my opponent already, even though that I cannot even see him in front of me. So I think that for me was always, uh, very important to try to clear my mind out from everything.

   9. LFLex Fridman1:59

      Are you visualizing the opponent or are you just clearing-

   10. RGRoger Gracie2:02

       Not at, not at that much, not at that time.

   11. LFLex Fridman2:03

       Right. Is there, what's- what's in your head? Is it like a calm river with birds chirping? What? (laughs)

   12. RGRoger Gracie2:08

       It's blank, just-

   13. LFLex Fridman2:10

       Blank.

   14. RGRoger Gracie2:10

       ... just blank.

   15. LFLex Fridman2:10

       Darkness.

   16. RGRoger Gracie2:11

       Yeah. Darkness.

   17. LFLex Fridman2:12

       Okay. And that's what we see in that calmness, is just blankness.

   18. RGRoger Gracie2:16

       Yeah.

   19. LFLex Fridman2:16

       How hard is it to achieve that blankness?

   20. RGRoger Gracie2:18

       It's difficult to say because I think I don't remember when, I'll say probably as a black belt, I tried to focus like that, not to think, because, uh, it's probably something you learn, is the more you think, the more nervous you get. And there's nothing that you're gonna gain by thinking of the fight or the possibilities what, you know, what you can do, what can go wrong, what can go right because it's unpredictable. You- you have absolutely no idea. It's impossible to predict the fight.

   21. LFLex Fridman2:49

       And you discover that if you just let those nervous feelings go and empty your mind, it actually is pretty effective.

   22. RGRoger Gracie2:55

       It is. It- it makes you feel better. It's, you know, you- you kind of control your emotion, control the adrenaline on your body up to a level, so it- it absolutely helps you, you know, focus in the fight.

   23. LFLex Fridman3:07

       I've learned that in jujitsu and j- in general in life that whenever something feels really shitty, you can just, like, take that thought and not think about it.

   24. RGRoger Gracie3:16

       Yeah.

   25. LFLex Fridman3:17

       Like, I do that, like, on long runs or, like, a fast run or, yeah, in jujitsu, especially now I'm getting older, out of shape, like, that feeling of exhaustion. Well, you can always get to the feeling of exhaustion. You could just not think about it.

   26. RGRoger Gracie3:29

       Yeah.

   27. LFLex Fridman3:29

       Not think about being exhausted.

   28. RGRoger Gracie3:31

       Yeah.

   29. LFLex Fridman3:32

       Just... And that somehow relaxes you. I think, uh, maybe in the face of exhaustion, all the fears start to creep in, maybe your muscles tighten up, I don't know. This is for the- the, uh, the amateur jujitsu person.

   30. RGRoger Gracie3:44

       (laughs)
3. 8:16 – 22:41

   Confidence

   1. RGRoger Gracie8:17

   2. LFLex Fridman8:17

      Okay, let's go back to that guy, with, with his mind. So actually in the weeks leading up to it, in the days, in the hours, in the minutes, is there some fear in you leading up to this?

   3. RGRoger Gracie8:30

      I mean, I'm not gonna say, you know, that I'm fearless because everybody fear something, you know. The fear is there, but it's like how much you let that controlled you. I think I was a lot more confident than fearful, uh, for sure, walking to that fight. Like, I, I was pretty confident that, yeah, I could beat him.

   4. LFLex Fridman8:49

      Where is the source of that confidence?

   5. RGRoger Gracie8:52

      Uh, my belief goin' on, on me. Yes.

   6. LFLex Fridman8:55

      Okay. So-

   7. RGRoger Gracie8:55

      I can take the world. (laughs)

   8. LFLex Fridman8:57

      (laughs) Not sp- you can take anyone in the world, but is there a specific strategic, like, uh, you know, talking to Danaher, he believes that there's no such thing as confidence. Like th- or rather the way you get confidence is through data.

   9. RGRoger Gracie9:13

      (laughs)

   10. LFLex Fridman9:13

       Like that you have proven yourself effective, uh, in previous situations. But with Buchecha, uh, you don't, you don't have much data. It was a very t- the first time you faced him was a very tough, that was also one of the greatest matches of all time. That was very tough. So doesn't that creep in, like that doubt, because you don't, you don't have enough data to be confident based on. (laughs)

   11. RGRoger Gracie9:38

       Uh, yeah, I mean... okay, if I never have fought before, you know, suddenly walk into a fight with someone like that, then would I be that confidence? I mean, probably no. You know, so that history of what, you know, what we've been doing, what we've been achieving does gives you confidence. Uh, if that was my first fight ever, I wouldn't, probably I wouldn't be that confident.

   12. LFLex Fridman10:02

       But the time off?

   13. RGRoger Gracie10:04

       Uh, it doesn't matter.

   14. LFLex Fridman10:05

       Doesn't matter.

   15. RGRoger Gracie10:07

       Doesn't matter. Doesn't matter.

   16. LFLex Fridman10:08

       You don't have the fear or the actual physical experience, the psychological experience of being rusty, of being out of the competition?

   17. RGRoger Gracie10:14

       That will, that will come out on training.

   18. LFLex Fridman10:17

       So you, okay, so you simulate some-

   19. RGRoger Gracie10:18

       Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

   20. LFLex Fridman10:18

       ... aspect of that in the training?

   21. RGRoger Gracie10:20

       I mean, it's the, the training will tell you how you are.

   22. LFLex Fridman10:22

       Okay. Did you increase the intensity of the training leading up to this?

   23. RGRoger Gracie10:27

       Yeah. I mean, I train, I train normal. Let's say compared to the first fight, uh, the second one was a lot more confidence because, you know, like I said on training, the training for the first fight, they were terrible. So... (laughs)

   24. LFLex Fridman10:40

       What do you mean?

   25. RGRoger Gracie10:41

       I think I was, uh, the, the focus on MMA for a while, for a couple months, and I wasn't really focused in the gi, and you know, by the time I accepted the fight and then start training, like all my responses on training were off. Like all my training partner that I used to train with that I destroyed, I mean, now they're like, they're beating me. (laughs) You know, it's like I cannot beat them the way I w- I, I, I was used to.

   26. LFLex Fridman11:04

       Mm-hmm.

   27. RGRoger Gracie11:05

       But, you know, so I, I knew it was, something was not right for the first fight. But then it's, uh, s- is it, you know, no points, it's submission or, or draw. So-

   28. LFLex Fridman11:15

       Yeah. For people who don't know, it was a Matty Morris, which is a 20-minute match, submission only, so there's no-

   29. RGRoger Gracie11:20

       Yeah.

   30. LFLex Fridman11:20

       The winner is determined only by submission, otherwise it's a draw.
4. 22:41 – 44:03

   Greatest jiu jitsu match of all time

   1. RGRoger Gracie22:42

   2. LFLex Fridman22:43

      Going back to the mind of that guy, uh, so confident, no fear at this point. Is there a bit of ego in there too?

   3. RGRoger Gracie22:53

      Yes. Lik- like I say, no, I'm not gonna say I'm fear- I'm fearless. Of course this concerns... That fight, I would have to say was probably the fight that I got nervous the most walking in, because I knew what that meant, that fight. It mean everything for me, all my legacy was on the line, because if I lost that fight, I would- forever I will be number two.

   4. LFLex Fridman23:21

      Yeah.

   5. RGRoger Gracie23:21

      Forever. And, I mean, Buchecha is- is a great, great guy, great competitor, jiu-jitsu's very good, but I'm better than him. I knew that. It's like-

   6. LFLex Fridman23:32

      But he's competing non-stop at that point. He's-

   7. RGRoger Gracie23:34

      No, no. He's a- he's a great competitor, you know, taking nothing out of him. He's super tough, very, very tough, very good. He's probably the best competitor in jiu-jitsu and he won 13 time the world championship. I won ten. So as a competitor, you know, he gets more titles than I do. So- but in terms of, you know, analyzing the game, I consider technically better than him. So knowing all that, everything that I built, all my legacy, it's if I lose-

   8. LFLex Fridman24:07

      All is riding on this match.

   9. RGRoger Gracie24:09

      If I lose this fight, I'm forever number two. (laughs)

   10. LFLex Fridman24:13

       ... and, uh, none of that is going, going through your mind that-

   11. RGRoger Gracie24:15

       I, no, I knew. I mean, it's not at that moment that I s- I already knew that. I remember just before, you know, um, the, the curtains open. I'm standing and before they call my name, and, I mean, my legs were like, sh- (laughs) I feel the adrenaline kick in, all my legs, and I'm like, you know, I'm hitting the legs. I'm like, "Wake up." You know?

   12. LFLex Fridman24:36

       Yeah.

   13. RGRoger Gracie24:36

       Get off, get the adrenaline off me, you know? It's, so, it's, it was, it was intense. It was intense.

   14. LFLex Fridman24:43

       And this was in Rio.

   15. RGRoger Gracie24:44

       That was in Rio.

   16. LFLex Fridman24:46

       So-

   17. RGRoger Gracie24:47

       My hometown.

   18. LFLex Fridman24:48

       So this is-

   19. RGRoger Gracie24:49

       Huge crowd.

   20. LFLex Fridman24:49

       I mean, and, you know, Rio is, is not exactly known for its calmness-

   21. RGRoger Gracie24:54

       (laughs)

   22. LFLex Fridman24:54

       ... in its fans. So this is, like, uh, wherever they hosted the Olympics the year before.

   23. RGRoger Gracie25:01

       Yeah.

   24. LFLex Fridman25:02

       So this is, like, I mean, this, like, the whole basically martial arts community is watching this.

   25. RGRoger Gracie25:10

       Watching that fight.

   26. LFLex Fridman25:11

       (laughs)

   27. RGRoger Gracie25:12

       Yeah.

   28. LFLex Fridman25:13

       I mean, is there some, uh, was Renzo there?

   29. RGRoger Gracie25:15

       Yeah.

   30. LFLex Fridman25:17

       (laughs)
5. 44:03 – 56:20

   Renzo Gracie

   1. RGRoger Gracie44:03

   2. LFLex Fridman44:03

      Since Renzo was there, what did he tell you before?

   3. RGRoger Gracie44:06

      I think just motivate you. I think that's, Renzo always did that fantastically well, to motivate me. Like before a fight, a match, I think that, you know, the confidence, you know, his, you know, his energy being around you. It's, I think that's the, is, is, is the great thing to have Renzo in your corner is the motivation that he gives you.

   4. LFLex Fridman44:28

      What did you learn about jujitsu and life from Renzo Gracie? We got to hang out with him in, in Vegas a little bit. He's a character.

   5. RGRoger Gracie44:34

      Yeah.

   6. LFLex Fridman44:35

      He's one of the, uh, historic coaches and jujitsu competitors, but also personalities in the martial arts world.

   7. RGRoger Gracie44:42

      Yeah.

   8. LFLex Fridman44:42

      In, in the world in general. There's very few like him.

   9. RGRoger Gracie44:44

      Renzo is a fantastic person. It's, it's like, you know, what I've learned most from him is like, it's, you know, you can take any challenge. It's, you know, doesn't matter when, where, what, you know, who. It's, you know, you have to be ready and, you know, with the war spirit that he has, he's, he know, he always took any challenge, ready or not ready. (laughs)

   10. LFLex Fridman45:11

       Was it you that said it or he said it where, uh, not until you go in, uh, you know, to do something difficult do you discover the strength that you have? So like, like if you really think about it, you might think that you don't, you're not good enough, you don't have the strength to take on something difficult.

   11. RGRoger Gracie45:33

       I fully agree that thing. We are measured not when we are in the strongest, but when we are in the weakest. That's when we truly measure ourselves, our character, who we are. Not when we're in a position of power, when we're in a position of weakness.

   12. LFLex Fridman45:47

       Have you surprised yourself, like how damn good you are? Like, (laughs) is this, is this really how good I am in this situation? Where in retrospect you might think, "How the hell was I able to accomplish this?"

   13. RGRoger Gracie45:59

       Not how good I am, because o- otherwise I wouldn't be there.

   14. LFLex Fridman46:04

       (laughs)

   15. RGRoger Gracie46:05

       So, you know, being there in the first place, it's, it's already not a great thing. (laughs) But I say, you know, I've, every single time I found myself there, I was super proud that I've never cracked. Like, I've never gave up, ever, any second, any fight, never.

   16. LFLex Fridman46:24

       Never been broken in competition?

   17. RGRoger Gracie46:26

       Never. Even... Uh, it's not about winning or losing. It's about you giving up. I've never doubt myself. I always fought to the very end, always. That, I'm most proud of. 'Cause there was moments, you know, it's, you're in a terrible position, you know. Mainly, like there was moments that I was super tired, but like exhaustive tired, when, and it was easy to give up, like I had nothing more to give. But I pushed. I took energy out of my soul-

   18. LFLex Fridman46:59

       Yeah.

   19. RGRoger Gracie46:59

       ... I would have to say, 'cause when my body had zero, but my, you know, my spirit, my soul pulled it out.

   20. LFLex Fridman47:07

       Is that in part just not allowing yourself to have, um, to have, to ever, ever quit?

   21. RGRoger Gracie47:14

       Yeah.

   22. LFLex Fridman47:16

       I have, um, one other thing I regret. I remember like a blue belt match. I remember it. I'm not gonna say who it was against.

   23. RGRoger Gracie47:24

       (laughs)

   24. LFLex Fridman47:24

       But, um, I remember just being extremely exhausted and, um, just constantly fighting a guy who was a really good mount, really good guard passing. And I just remember, um, him passing my guard eventually, so it was just like a finals of one of the IBJJF tournaments. And then s- right away going to mount and just, I don't know, I, it was a f- the level of frustration, I mean, I quit at that point. So I remember that still. Like, I, it's not about losing, winning or losing, but I just remember I, I was like, like, I was like teary-eyed frustrated. And then I knew there was a lot of fight still left in, in there somewhere and I, I, I quit, and I regret that to this day.

   25. RGRoger Gracie48:11

       Yeah.

   26. LFLex Fridman48:11

       'Cause, uh, I think that the reason I regret that is 'cause it gave me an option to, to not quit, in every other aspect of life.

   27. RGRoger Gracie48:18

       Yeah.

   28. LFLex Fridman48:18

       Like that, this is an option.

   29. RGRoger Gracie48:21

       Yeah. It is. (laughs)

   30. LFLex Fridman48:23

       (laughs) It sucks.
6. 56:20 – 57:43

   Braveheart

   1. RGRoger Gracie56:20

      .

   2. LFLex Fridman56:20

      Um, you said you watch, like, movies beforehand sometimes, mentioned Braveheart. What were you doing? Did you watch something beforehand, like the day before?

   3. RGRoger Gracie56:28

      I used to, yeah. I, there was, like, I think Braveheart and, uh, Gladiator. I mean, there's a few others that I've always watched the day before, 'cause the day before I used to do nothing.

   4. LFLex Fridman56:41

      Mm-hmm.

   5. RGRoger Gracie56:41

      I just want to be at home, in bed, watching TV, like saving, you know, energy, stretching by myself. So it was like, it's, I just want to save energy. I don't want to waste my energy going out, going around. So, you know, it's, those are the movies that I always like to watch, kinda try to bring some, you know, hyper-

   6. LFLex Fridman56:59

      Yeah.

   7. RGRoger Gracie56:59

      ... excitement. It's like, you know, I'm getting ready to war tomorrow, so I'm like, let me watch some movies that, like, brought the, you know, some, that warrior spirit into me.

   8. LFLex Fridman57:09

      Yeah. Yeah, what is that about human nature? Braveheart, I love-

   9. RGRoger Gracie57:12

      Yeah.

   10. LFLex Fridman57:12

       ... even more. Should you put your life on the line for a thing that matters or run away just so you can live? It's like, running, you may live, but, like, years from now when you look back at this moment, uh, would you trade all the days-

   11. RGRoger Gracie57:28

       Yeah.

   12. LFLex Fridman57:29

       ... just to come back and to this moment?

   13. RGRoger Gracie57:32

       And tell Dangly? (laughs) .

   14. LFLex Fridman57:34

       (laughs) . You could take our lives, but you can't take our freedom.

   15. RGRoger Gracie57:36

       But you cannot take our freedom. (laughs) .

   16. LFLex Fridman57:37

       I mean, oh man. What is that about human nature? Um,

7. 57:43 – 1:11:49

   Self-belief

   1. LFLex Fridman57:44

      is there some aspect of, like, the glory you were able to achieve being more important than anything else? There's some aspect of that that, that's, that's greatness, you know?

   2. RGRoger Gracie57:55

      Yeah. I never pursue glory, so it's, it just came, you know, it is, you, you comes with it, but that was never my goal. I never care for glory.

   3. LFLex Fridman58:07

      Were you able to experience, like, like, I'm at the height of this thing? Whatever, whatever humanity is able to achieve in various things, holy shit-

   4. RGRoger Gracie58:17

      I'm flying. I, I felt like I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, no one can touch me. I can destroy people. Yeah.

   5. LFLex Fridman58:26

      Prolonged periods of time or just, uh, momentarily?

   6. RGRoger Gracie58:32

      I, I always knew, you know, from b- before I got to a black belt that, like, I, I, you know, it's, I can be great, because my progr- you know, I used to train with the best in the world. I used to, you know, for many years, and I used to see my progression w- with, and everybody else. So I, I knew I was getting somewhere. I knew I could be the best, and that was, that was always my goal since very, very young, and I always believed that I could be. And that, over the years, that kept telling me over and over again, because I'm getting better and better faster than everybody else. So it's, I just need to carry on with what I'm doing.

   7. LFLex Fridman59:14

      But I think you've said that you wanted to and maybe you thought you could be the greatest of all time, like, at the very beginning, like when you sucked. (laughs) .

   8. RGRoger Gracie59:26

      Yeah. Yeah, not, not the greatest of all time because... And I never really thought about that. Uh, but I thought I'm gonna be the best in the world when I sucked.

   9. LFLex Fridman59:35

      When you what?

   10. RGRoger Gracie59:35

       When I sucked.

   11. LFLex Fridman59:36

       So, okay, so what is that, uh, what is that, like that self-belief? Is there a component to that self-belief being a prerequisite?

   12. RGRoger Gracie59:46

       It's, it's difficult to say because that was a decision, I think. Like, why did I believe that I could be? I, I can't tell you that 'cause I don't know. Wh-

   13. LFLex Fridman59:56

       But you think you decided to be that.

   14. RGRoger Gracie59:57

       I decided to be, I decided to be and I believed I could.

   15. LFLex Fridman1:00:00

       You think there was, like, a day somewhere when you were young where you were like-

   16. RGRoger Gracie1:00:04

       No.

   17. LFLex Fridman1:00:04

       ... huh, you're sitting on a couch eating Cheetos.

   18. RGRoger Gracie1:00:06

       (laughs) . I don't think it was, um, a, a day, like a moment, because for many years is I wasn't really training much as a child. Uh, you know, I've done a bit of... I used to train and then stop, done a bit of judo. Never stay away from it much, but until, you know, like, like from 10 to 14, I barely trained jujitsu much. I used to... There was no Gracie school near where I used to live and I was doing, there was a jujitsu, a judo school I used to go twice a week. I went to a jiu-jitsu tournament. I lost in five seconds, left crying. (laughs) . The guy, he pulled me in five seconds. Anyway, so when I was 14, I went to the south of Brazil to see my uncle Helio to spend sum- summer holidays. I was there for, like, four weeks I think. And I, when I got there, my cousin Hollis was living with him. Hollis, like...... bigger than me. It was, I think four years, four years older. So I was 14, he was already 18, 17, 18, purple belt competitor. And I think that was the first time in my life that I felt what it mean, what it meant to be a Gracie, in terms of having a school, teaching, training, you know, living that, you know, jiu-jitsu lifestyle, what a Gracie mean to be, and I've just, I've loved that. I was out of shape. My uncle was like, you know, was incentivizing me to lose weight, to train. "But you're not training, why?" You know, it's like, "You're out of shape, you need to diet." So I used, I used to run every day. I was eating super well. I start, you know, I started... That when I start changing. So when I go back to Rio, I was super motivated to follow up, carry on. And he, you know, he invited me to go back there to live with him, but I couldn't. It was too soon, and to change schools and everything. My mom said, "No, but maybe next year, if you want to go, you can." So I kept that in my mind. Next year, I, I moved to the south to live with him. I was 15. And it was him, my uncle Helio, and my uncle Clelin. They both used to live very close to each other. They also have their own schools close to each other. So I was with both, and I stayed there for almost a year. You know, I was the youngest in the academy. There was some, you know, blue, purple belts, normal guy, but they're already competing, training ahead of me, and I just joined the group of training. I didn't compete while I was there because there was no competition back then, and I wasn't really ready. But it's not about competing, it's more about the training. And I start training every day, start improving, and year after that when I came back to Rio, I was already on a mission. I was like, "I love this." I'm just carry on training every day with my uncle Carlos, Carlos Gracie Jr., Gracie Barra. And the one I got there, I was training a little bit there before, but I just 14, 15. But when I got there, there was a, you know, there was one of, that was one of the most competitor, one of the biggest jiu-jitsu schools at the time. There were so many high level world champions, competitors, in every single belt. And so, and I've kind of joined in with that and I've carried on. I don't remember when, but I remember, you know, looking and saying, "I'm gonna be the best in the world." But I used to be... I was at the bottom (laughs) of the stairs, you know. No one really believed me. I didn't shout, you know, to, to the skies, but, you know, I told a few people, I'm like, "I'm gonna be the best." And that's I think, uh, I was just losing, but I've never ever doubt, I've never divert from that mission, I would say.

   19. LFLex Fridman1:03:50

       Did anyone believe you when you said you're gonna be great?

   20. RGRoger Gracie1:03:53

       No. Nobody.

   21. LFLex Fridman1:03:53

       Did it matter?

   22. RGRoger Gracie1:03:54

       Did it matter? I don't care. I don't need.

   23. LFLex Fridman1:03:56

       Even people that, like, love you?

   24. RGRoger Gracie1:03:58

       Everybody. My mom, my dad. I mean, no one thought... No one in my family thought I was gonna be here today. Nobody. Because I just started late, you know. I've, I've never had any start that people, "Oh, that kid's gonna be really good."

   25. LFLex Fridman1:04:14

       Yeah.

   26. RGRoger Gracie1:04:14

       No. I was a chubby kid that didn't barely train. I mean, people used to look at me, "He's just another Gracie that's, you know, want more."

   27. LFLex Fridman1:04:22

       What do you learn from that? Do you think most people lose that self-belief, they quit?

   28. RGRoger Gracie1:04:30

       Of course.

   29. LFLex Fridman1:04:30

       When everyone around them doesn't believe?

   30. RGRoger Gracie1:04:31

       Yeah. I think if, if... Those that need approval, yes.
8. 1:11:49 – 1:15:52

   Cross-collar choke

   1. RGRoger Gracie1:11:49

   2. LFLex Fridman1:11:49

      What do you learn by doing all the steps along the way? And just for people who don't know, cross-collar choke from the mount. So jujitsu starts in a neutral place. There's people on their feet, and then you either- then you get to the ground somehow, and then there's a person on top and on bottom, and then there's a guard with the legs between the two people, and then you can get past the guard. Pro- as you get past the guard and you- uh, into side control and so on, you get more and more and more dominant positions. And so mount is considered to be one of the most dominant positions. It's when you're past their legs, sitting on top of their stomach, um, putting pressure on them. And col- cross-collar choke is using their jacket to, um- how would you explain that? To- to choke them with their jacket.

   3. RGRoger Gracie1:12:36

      So I have the collars. I put my both hands on your collars, and when I squeeze, it- it- it- it press your neck, so it blocks the vein, you- you go to sleep. So it's a- you- you choke people with your hands and the wrists. You put them, you know, you grab the collars to get the wrists around people's neck, and you squeeze.

   4. LFLex Fridman1:12:53

      Yeah. The discovery of that is fascinating. I mean, 'cause it's- it's interesting. It's like, um, you know, you could imagine there's all kinds of ways to choke a human being. Uh, well, animals do it with their, like, mouth.Right? They put, like, their jaws around the... And the fact that you can kind of discover this methodology of the right kind of positioning, and then it becomes an art form, like of, "Why this? Why not this?" Right? Or, "Why not this?" or something. Like, to figure all that out.

   5. RGRoger Gracie1:13:23

      I think we pr- we practice, that will come easy.

   6. LFLex Fridman1:13:25

      Over time you figure out what-

   7. RGRoger Gracie1:13:27

      Yeah. I agree, yeah.

   8. LFLex Fridman1:13:27

      ... works and what not. And you, and then-

   9. RGRoger Gracie1:13:28

      Yeah. Yeah.

   10. LFLex Fridman1:13:29

       And then more, further and further details and subtleties start to emerge. Anyway, on that process of beating, of being able to beat some of the best people in the world, and the thing they know is coming, what did... W- what's the difference between a white belt doing that and Roger Gracie doing that, the thing that's so hard to explain? What do you think you're picking up? Is it some tiny, tiny details and muscle movements?

   11. RGRoger Gracie1:13:53

       It is. It's, uh, many tiny details, because it, it's the whole movement itself. It's the perception from beginning to end. Like, every step of that movement, it's important and precise. So it's, you know, you miss one s- one detail on the way, you collapse. So when I say with a black belt, the black belt has no control over the whole movement. He thinking beginning and end. So he goes straight to, you know, straight to your neck. Regardless, he cannot read the other person. If it's, you know, w- if it's time to let go, if it's a time to go for a neck, should I be pushing here before I get my hand in? You know, is, is, is this the right time to go deep or should I deal, deal with this first before the second hand?

   12. LFLex Fridman1:14:37

       That's at the beginning, so it's at that, the white belt.

   13. RGRoger Gracie1:14:39

       Yeah.

   14. LFLex Fridman1:14:39

       At the very beginning of the journey.

   15. RGRoger Gracie1:14:41

       Yeah. The white belt, they just think finish.

   16. LFLex Fridman1:14:44

       Yeah.

   17. RGRoger Gracie1:14:45

       (laughs)

   18. LFLex Fridman1:14:46

       (laughs) And then as you get progressed, you s- see that there's like this giant tree of possibilities that you're, uh, almost feeling your way down. I mean, would you be able to teach? Exp- do you even know what you're doing?

   19. RGRoger Gracie1:15:02

       By the details.

   20. LFLex Fridman1:15:03

       Okay. But it's hard to convert into words probably. Uh-

   21. RGRoger Gracie1:15:07

       No.

   22. LFLex Fridman1:15:08

       ... as possible?

   23. RGRoger Gracie1:15:09

       Then you don't know what you're doing.

   24. LFLex Fridman1:15:10

       Okay.

   25. RGRoger Gracie1:15:12

       (laughs)

   26. LFLex Fridman1:15:12

       Uh, so what is, what, what are some most important details that you could say maybe positioning of the hand, the gripping? Is it the positioning of your body, the posture? Is there some interesting like insights that people miss out here?

   27. RGRoger Gracie1:15:27

       It, it's a, it's a com- it's a combination, because first you have to put your body in a very strong position that you don't require your hands to hold the mount. So the choke is there, that's first, because it, I cannot u- I cannot use my hands on the floor to stop you escaping.

   28. LFLex Fridman1:15:42

       Yeah.

   29. RGRoger Gracie1:15:43

       So if I have to, my body has to handle that. The way I position myself, I have to do it in a way that don't require my hands for balance.

9. 1:15:52 – 1:32:06

   Mount position

   1. RGRoger Gracie1:15:52

   2. LFLex Fridman1:15:52

      Okay. Why is the mount such a dominant position? Doesn't make any sense, right? Like, you're just sitting on top of the stomach of a person.

   3. RGRoger Gracie1:15:58

      It makes all sense. If you think, what's ... re- re- forgot, forget fighting, forget jiu-jitsu. Like, you've never trained. What's the one position, the most dominant position you can get over another human being? One. The most, for you, wh- which one it is? Like, the most dominant position that you can get over another human being?

   4. LFLex Fridman1:16:22

      So if we were just, 'cause the way I- I think about it is putting myself in like a six, seven, eight-year-old self without knowing any martial arts, and I had an older brother who would beat the shit out of me. Uh, yeah, it probably was mount. It, it wa- (laughs) but, well, yes, okay. So we both didn't know. But if you knew something, it'd probably be back control.

   5. RGRoger Gracie1:16:46

      If in a back control, you're under the other person, the thing being under is the most dominant position it can be over another person.

   6. LFLex Fridman1:16:54

      You mean like a back control?

   7. RGRoger Gracie1:16:55

      If I'm on your back-

   8. LFLex Fridman1:16:57

      Oh, like that. Yeah.

   9. RGRoger Gracie1:16:57

      ... you can move, you can roll. I cannot stop you rolling.

   10. LFLex Fridman1:17:00

       Yeah.

   11. RGRoger Gracie1:17:00

       Uh, you, maybe you could even stand up. How dominant is that?

   12. LFLex Fridman1:17:04

       Yeah, but if we're the same size, both untrained-

   13. RGRoger Gracie1:17:07

       If I'm that way, doesn't matter.

   14. LFLex Fridman1:17:08

       Have you seen kids do, they do that c- okay. Mount looks and feels like dominance when you're two eight-year-olds fighting. (laughs) Okay. I don't know, I don't know why it feels that way. It could be some animalistic thing. Maybe it is actual dominance. I don't know, but it feels like if you're untrained, you can just buck your way out of it. It feels unstable. It feels unstable to hold mount unless you know what you're doing, right?

   15. RGRoger Gracie1:17:32

       No.

   16. LFLex Fridman1:17:33

       No?

   17. RGRoger Gracie1:17:33

       Well, if your, if your mount you put both of your hands on the floor-

   18. LFLex Fridman1:17:35

       Yeah.

   19. RGRoger Gracie1:17:36

       ... ju- just your hands, do you think it's easier to take somebody off?

   20. LFLex Fridman1:17:40

       Yeah, maybe not.

   21. RGRoger Gracie1:17:41

       Do you think it's easy-

   22. LFLex Fridman1:17:42

       That's tough.

   23. RGRoger Gracie1:17:42

       ... to remove the hand and bring them out? The hand's on the floor, arm straight, I'm leaning in.

   24. LFLex Fridman1:17:48

       Yeah, you're right.

   25. RGRoger Gracie1:17:48

       It's hard.

   26. LFLex Fridman1:17:50

       You're right.

   27. RGRoger Gracie1:17:50

       I mean, you don't need to know fighting to hold yourself there.

   28. LFLex Fridman1:17:53

       Yeah. But you're right. When you take the arms off and balancing, then it gets tricky. 'Cause when you're trying to, um... I think what happens, I'm thinking back to eight-year-old.

   29. RGRoger Gracie1:18:04

       (laughs)

   30. LFLex Fridman1:18:04

       'Cause my, my brother's five years older than me, and he would do the usual, like, "Stop hitting yourself," thing. And he, I think he would be in mount and like hitting me with my own hands. Uh, uh, from out of place of love, of course. Um, I love him deeply and it was very formative and a positive experience for me. Okay. Um, I think, yeah, the weakness is when he takes... well, when the person who has you mount takes their arms off to, to do something.

Episode duration: 2:59:32