Lex Fridman PodcastRoger Reaves: Smuggling Drugs for Pablo Escobar and the Medellin Cartel | Lex Fridman Podcast #199
EVERY SPOKEN WORD
150 min read · 30,152 words- 0:00 – 3:49
Introduction
- LFLex Fridman
The following is a conversation with Roger Reeves, one of the most prolific drug smugglers in history. He worked for Pablo Escobar and Jorge Ochoa, the leaders behind the Medellín Cartel. Roger was the employer and close friend of Barry Seal, the infamous drug smuggler who was the main character in the movie American Made. Roger transported countless tons of cocaine and marijuana, covering six continents. He escaped prison five times, was shut down in both Mexico and Colombia, and was tortured nearly to death in a Mexican prison. Through all of this, his wife, Mari, the love of his life, was there with him and when he was in prison, she waited for him. He recently got out of prison where for many years he worked on his memoir called Smuggler. This podcast is an exploration of his story. Quick mention of our sponsors: Noom, Allform, ExpressVPN, Four Sigmatic, and Eight Sleep. Check them out in the description to support this podcast. Let me say a few words about Roger Reeves, Pablo Escobar, and the War on Drugs. This conversation with Roger is unlike any I've ever done. In the eyes of many, including the law, Roger is a criminal, a bad man who has added to the suffering in the world. But he never directly engaged or participated in the violence, unlike his bosses, Pablo Escobar and Jorge Ochoa. His crime was the transport of drugs. I thought about this and about Pablo Escobar, who was at once both a brutal murderer and a Robin Hood figure who helped the poor and was loved by thousands, if not millions. We sometimes idolize murderers and destroy good, honest men. We give power and money to corrupt politicians and dictators that starve and murder their own people. Given this, I think about what makes for a good man and what makes for a bad man, and who decides? Sitting across from Roger, I saw a complicated man, but one who has kindness in his heart, a love for money and adventure, and a disdain for violence. Again, his crime was the transport of drugs. Since 1971, the War on Drugs has cost US $1 trillion. Marijuana legalization alone would save and make $13.7 billion. That could send more than 650,000 students to public universities every year. Then there's the human stories of the 500,000 human beings sitting in prison for drug-related offenses, and the 1.1 million on probation and parole. Their life is damaged or ruined beyond repair due to the prohibition of drugs. There's a lot more to be said about the damage done by the War on Drugs. But when reading about Roger's story and talking to him, I couldn't escape the thought that while society wants to label him a criminal and a bad human being, there are much worse men out there who we give a pass to, even give power to, even men who hold political office or run companies. I also think about my role as an interviewer, sitting across a man like Roger. In these interviews, in life, in many ways, I continue to be myself. A person who, like Dostoevsky's the idiot, seeks the good in all people, but is hurt by it on occasion, and maybe is destroyed by it in the end. I'm not naive, but I'm also optimistic and have hope for humanity. That's who I am and that's what these conversations are. I hope you join me and I hope you understand that I come from a place of love. This is the Lex Fridman Podcast, and here's my conversation with Roger Reeves.
- 3:49 – 6:10
Money
- LFLex Fridman
You are one of the most prolific drug smugglers in history. What would you say motivated you? Money, power, the thrill, or was it something else?
- RRRoger Reaves
Money.
- LFLex Fridman
But isn't there a point where you've had more money than you can possibly know what to do with? Or was it always more money?
- RRRoger Reaves
You know, I had plenty of money several times, and I think it's sort of like if you was in Las Vegas and you had the slot machine handled down and the gold coins were tumbling around you and you had sweepers bagging them up, when would you let it go?
- LFLex Fridman
But isn't some part of that the thrill then?
- RRRoger Reaves
Oh, there was a lot of thrill. Sometimes way too much.
- LFLex Fridman
You made, uh, certainly tens of millions of dollars, probably much more. What memorable experience did having that much money make possible for you? So there's one thing is the money, and the other thing is what that money can buy.
- RRRoger Reaves
Well, I bought everything (clears throat) that I could hide.
- LFLex Fridman
(laughs)
- RRRoger Reaves
I bought seven farms. I owned, uh, the, um, the city, the land where the city of Moreno Valley, California is.
- LFLex Fridman
(laughs)
- RRRoger Reaves
I had an option on that land, did the planning and development of that. Uh, the most expensive coin in the world (clears throat) , um, y- yachts, ships, airplanes galore.
- LFLex Fridman
That bring you happiness?
- RRRoger Reaves
No, absolutely not. In fact, I think I'm happier now. I know I'm happier now.
- LFLex Fridman
So looking back, would you do it the same way all again?
- RRRoger Reaves
(laughs) No way.
- LFLex Fridman
Really? Even the thrill of it?
- RRRoger Reaves
Not even the thrill of it. It wasn't worth 33 years in prison being away from my lovely family.
- LFLex Fridman
(inhales deeply) So money, what about the power? Just being on top of the world where nobody can... not the governments, the police, all the big bad agencies chasing you, and you could do whatever the heck you wanted?
- RRRoger Reaves
As far as having to look over your shoulder everywhere you did, went and every phone call you made, make sure that you was naked with somebody in the ocean before you talked. (laughs)
- LFLex Fridman
(laughs)
- RRRoger Reaves
It's rather uncomfortable. (laughs)
- LFLex Fridman
Yeah. Um...I like to make phone calls the same way.
- 6:10 – 13:22
Pablo Escobar
- LFLex Fridman
What, uh, was it like meeting and working with Pablo Escobar, the leader of the Medellin cartel?
- RRRoger Reaves
He was just a, just seemed like a gentleman when I met him. He was just like you and I, sitting here, shook hands and... I had flown one load for a fella and, uh, it didn't work out well. The fella that I gave it to got shot and it took a while to get my money, and they didn't put as many kilos on the plane as they were supposed to, and so I wasn't gonna work with them anymore. And my contact down there introduced me to J- Jorge Ochoa, and, uh, we went up (clears throat) in Envigado, we went up and the gate opened and we was escorted in. There must've been 50 men out in the yards, a hitching rail on an old house, and we was escorted right in. And there was a beautiful woman in there, I mean gor-
- LFLex Fridman
(laughs)
- RRRoger Reaves
... drop-dead beautiful, and she made us a cup of coffee and then we was, uh, ushered in to see Jorge Ochoa. And he had 12 telephones on his desk, and all of them was a different color. And he shook hands, was very friendly, spoke English. And, uh, he said that each one of those telephones re- represented another city in the United States. This was for Chicago and this was New York. If I rang, I knew who was calling. And so we chatted awhile and, uh, he asked me what type of airplanes I had and what experience I had flying across the US border, and I told him. He seemed, um, pleased with it, and he called the lady in and she went next door and in came Pablo Escobar, and he introduced me to Pablo Escobar, and he asked the same questions again and, uh, I answered them. And I says, um, uh... And I, uh, I asked him how much they paid, and they paid $5,000 a kilo to haul it. And, uh, so I said, "How much you put on the plane?" He said, "300, 500." So that's one and a half, two and a half million dollars for an eight-hour trip. It sounded pretty good to me.
- LFLex Fridman
And we're talking about cocaine?
- RRRoger Reaves
Cocaine.
- LFLex Fridman
And we're talking about Colombia?
- RRRoger Reaves
Colombia and cocaine and Medellin cartel.
- LFLex Fridman
And-
- RRRoger Reaves
Colombia-
- LFLex Fridman
... uh, Jorge Ochoa was one of the, what would you say, founding members of the Medellin-
- RRRoger Reaves
He was probably the brains behind the whole thing.
- LFLex Fridman
The brains, and spoke good English?
- RRRoger Reaves
Yes.
- LFLex Fridman
And they were nice people?
- RRRoger Reaves
Really nice people.
- LFLex Fridman
Were you scared?
- RRRoger Reaves
Not at all.
- LFLex Fridman
What's wrong with your mind that you weren't scared? Here's some of the most dangerous men in this world and you weren't scared.
- RRRoger Reaves
Well, I knew I was gonna do exactly what I said I was gonna do. Mari and the children were down there, they went down and they stayed in a hotel, five star, treated royally on my first load. And I, they just did ass security to make sure that I wasn't a DEA agent. So I, uh, I did the first load and they was, they can say they were hostages, but they really weren't. It was just a insurance.
- LFLex Fridman
So there was some integrity to the way they operated? I mean-
- RRRoger Reaves
Completely. I mean, straight, straight up. The money was ironed and banned, bad, banded (laughs) and just right, and the, and the numbers were never once anything wrong with it.
- LFLex Fridman
What would you attribute that honesty to? Within the, um, their own moral system and their own set of rules, why weren't people crossing the line and shaving off the top and, and, uh, in injecting chaos into the system to where y- it would be unpredictable and people would be dishonest and greedy and all those kinds of things?
- RRRoger Reaves
That's true, most people are, but there's certain people at the top of the food chain that they don't need that, and if they're completely honest, then they don't have to think of, remember the lie they told.
- LFLex Fridman
Mm-hmm.
- RRRoger Reaves
And, and plus they're just honest to start with. They're, they're, they're making plenty of money. They was making as much money as I did. I, uh, I'll tell you how that, um, that came about. I understand that 10,000 people were killed every year in Medellin, Colombia, and what they were doing, they didn't, they didn't have any organization. And, uh, if one fella had 10 kilos and he wanted it shipped to New York, he would tell his friend and his friend says, "Sure, I'll ship it. I have a pallet and I'll ship it up." And then he would look in the newspapers, "Oh, 40 kilos was busted in New Jersey. I'm so sorry, yours got busted." Bang, bang, he's dead. So here comes Jorge Ochoa and the three Ochoa brothers and Pablo Escobar and Gacho, and they decided that we will make an insurance company, that we would charge you $10,000 to take it to your contact in Miami. If it gets lost anywhere between the time I put it on the airplane or the time you give it to us and the time we give it to your man, we will replace it in Colombia for you. So there was no way anybody could lose. And I understand they got 100 tons piled up under that insurance program, and I was right there the first day, so I had all the work I could do. I would land and they'd, I'd say, "When do you want me to come back?" "We're waiting on you, senor."
- LFLex Fridman
Well, let me ask a difficult question. Uh, some see Escobar as a brutal murderer and some see him as, um, maybe a Robin Hood-like figure who helped the poor. How do you see the man?
- RRRoger Reaves
Both of them. I think he started out, to be honest, with help the poor, and then they had a war down there and they blew up and killed his people, and, uh, the country was divided almost equally three ways. They had the, uh, the military, they were just as much into it as anybody, and then you had the FARC guerillas, they had about a third of the country, and then you had the Contras who was like the white farmers, and, uh, they're the ones that I was dealing with, and they were at war with one another. And so if one of them started killing their people, "Well, I'll kill some of yours too." So that, that's how it happened and... And then when, uh, I heard about Pablo Escobar blowing up that airliner and killing those women and children, I was sorry I ever shook his hand. That's, that's brutal murder.
- LFLex Fridman
So you would say Escobar is not a good man?
- RRRoger Reaves
Not at all. He's terrible.... now, but looking back on it, when I met him, he was good. Did just exactly what he said he would do.
- 13:22 – 20:58
Jorge Ochoa
- RRRoger Reaves
- LFLex Fridman
You said H- Jorge Ochoa was perhaps the brains of the Medellín cartel. What was he like, and why do you say he was the brains?
- RRRoger Reaves
Well, he was a gentleman, and I suppose he sh- shipped a- no telling how many more times of cocaine than Pablo did, just in him and his brothers. You could tell by the, they had on each, h- a load that was in duffel bags, and it was big football-shaped, um, fluffy stuff made with ether, and, uh, they would have three horns on it or a rattlesnake or four X's on each bag, and you kind of got to knowing which was, which was which, and they shipped a lot. So, um, and he was just a gentleman. I took the family, we went one weekend to his ranch, or his, uh, palatial place out near Barranquilla, and oh, we, he just treated the family, his family, had a, his younger brother wro- uh, made a bullfight, and we had, uh, skiing and, uh, little airplanes on floats down on the water. It was really nice, and he was really nice.
- LFLex Fridman
(sighs) How do you make sense of the tension that a man could be a gentleman, could have integrity, but also be a murderer?
- RRRoger Reaves
Well, murder is, is a, is a stronger word than killing.
- LFLex Fridman
Can you explain the, the, the line, the gray area we're talking about? I mean, I've just talking with Jocko Willink, and we talked a lot about killing in the context of, um, military conflict and the context of war, so there, there's a line between murder and killing that you can draw. What's, uh, the line that you're referring to?
- RRRoger Reaves
It's something similar. If you g- if people are shooting at you, and you shoot back and kill him, I don't, that's not murder whatsoever. That's, uh, uh, he's trying to get away or, or out, out of the situation. But if, uh, some woman don't pay you and you send a hit man over to, to, to kill her and her children-
- LFLex Fridman
Yeah.
- RRRoger Reaves
... that's, that's-
- LFLex Fridman
That's murder.
- RRRoger Reaves
... that's murder.
- LFLex Fridman
Was Jorge involved in those kinds of things? So-
- RRRoger Reaves
I don't think so at all. It just, I mean, he was, he was just such a gentleman. He had, um, a restaurant before, and, and he was just smart. I understand that, uh, the first 10 kilos he sold, he was sitting on a, on a motorcycle in the, in the sidelines, in the parking lot, and when the DEA come in, he sped away. (laughs) So he didn't come back to America. He was just smart. Some people just have, are savvy, and he was such a gentleman, and the whole family, the mother and the father, the two brothers, their sister, it w- I was there when she was kidnapped, and, uh, finally, he kidnapped our, our, I guess, 100 leaders of the FARC, and, uh, said, "All right, when she don't come back, none of these are gonna come back."
- LFLex Fridman
(laughs)
- RRRoger Reaves
So they made a deal.
- LFLex Fridman
Is there something you can say about the power structure, the hierarchy of the Medellín cartel that you interacted with? Was, uh, was it a dictatorship where Pablo ran everything? Was there a bunch of power centers? W- was it like a company where you have CEO, CTO kind of thing, and then there's like managers and all those kinds of things? What's the, like how did it run from a leadership perspective?
- RRRoger Reaves
I understand that about five of them got together and made this, I would call it an insurance company, and, uh, now known as the Medellín cartel, and I didn't see any difference. Each one of them had their own business, and, uh, their people from the jungle or wherever made the cocaine, gave it to them, and they shipped it, and, uh, so it didn't, it didn't seem to be any, any power play between them at all. But my main contact was Jorge Ochoa, and Pablo Escobar was right there, and I hauled plenty of stuff for him too.
- LFLex Fridman
It's strange that they didn't betray each other regularly. You know, uh, greed makes men betray each other. How do you explain that? H- how much betrayal did you see?
- RRRoger Reaves
I didn't see any. Absolutely none. If, if they shipped his 100 kilos, he got paid for it. If the other one, uh, shipped his, I'm sure they got paid for it.
- LFLex Fridman
How do you explain that?
- RRRoger Reaves
Well, there was no need to. The money was just unbelievable. You think about f- 500 kilos in the plane at $50,000 a kilo at the time, and they paid $5,000 to ship it, and they made 5,000 without even touching it. They just had a, somebody to load it onto the airplane. I gave it to their man in Miami. They gave it to whoever it belonged to by the, uh, by the marks on the duffel bags. So they was making just untold millions, just, uh-... no reason.
- LFLex Fridman
But greed can blind men. I, you know, it's still, it's still strange to me that there was not more betrayal. It, it speaks of something else perhaps that's bigger than money. Um, may- maybe, maybe not, but it seems like just like in the casino, like you mentioned, uh, we, um, get accustomed to the, whatever level of money we have, we get accustomed very quickly.
- RRRoger Reaves
Yes.
- LFLex Fridman
And then there's a tension that's natural between human beings, and when that tension combined with money, combined with power, combined with, like you mentioned, beautiful women and a, a bit of violence, it seems that, um, betrayal should be commonplace, but it's not.
- RRRoger Reaves
It wasn't, not at all. This Carlos Lehder, uh, I don't know he betrayed anybody, but he started that. I- he was r- running cocaine through the Bahamas, and he had the island.
- LFLex Fridman
Yeah.
- RRRoger Reaves
I, I didn't go. I was offered to fly with a DC-3 with that, but I didn't like it. So I had my route through the oil wells in Louisiana.
- LFLex Fridman
(laughs)
- RRRoger Reaves
And, uh, so I, I didn't want to go and change, but, uh, he, he talked a lot, and I don't know if he betrayed, but they didn't like him.
- LFLex Fridman
Yeah. So as you expand, there could be tensions that-
- 20:58 – 25:44
First time
- RRRoger Reaves
- LFLex Fridman
Well, maybe let's go back to the beginning. What was the first time you, uh, flew an airplane with drugs on it? Tell me the story of the first time you smuggled drugs.
- RRRoger Reaves
All right. I, uh, I flew down to Jalapa, Veracruz with a Cessna 182. And, uh, we landed at the town, it was a lovely town, and just an old town, looked like Bible times. People, women were washing their clothes in the streets and ir- with stone basins and a stream running through. I just was just, uh, dumbstruck. It was just so pretty. And I went in a church, in a Catholic church, and it had the Stations of the Cross all carved magnificent. I'd never seen that. And I come home and told Mary about that. That would just almost brought tears to my eyes it was so beautiful. And three o'clock the next morning I went out to the airport and taxied down to the taxiway, and there was a guard came out and, uh, wanted to know what I was doing, and I pulled out, I was on the f- I was on the fire department at Redondo Beach, California. So I pulled out my wallet and in, in it was a fire department badge, and oh, he shook my hand and was so glad. (laughs) Uh, so I taxied on down there and we loaded up about 400 pounds in the plane, and, uh, came on back and I was, uh, running into headwinds more than I thought, and I landed on a little strip.
- LFLex Fridman
You're talking about on the way back?
- RRRoger Reaves
On the way back, on the way north after we loaded up early in the morning.
- LFLex Fridman
Gotcha.
- RRRoger Reaves
And, uh, I had the only time I ever got vertigo. The mountains were coming down at a, a 30 or 40 degree angle and it's, uh, Milky Way was overhead, and somehow I wanted that airplane to be level with the stars.
- LFLex Fridman
(laughs)
- RRRoger Reaves
And it got, it got me, and it's, it's a phenomenon, a pilot has vertigo. It's the only time I ever had it was on that load. So anyway, the wind was on the nose of that Cessna, and I wasn't gonna make it to the dry lake where I had fuel. So I landed on a little bitty strip and there was a, a little house that was caved in and there was a little boy named Lazareth, about six or seven years old, and he was herding some goats. So we put the marijuana in that house and the man stayed with it so while I flew into some town and got fuel and came back and we sat down with the lunch that I brought back and little Lazareth sat there and ate with us and we had a good time. We loaded on back and came on home.
- LFLex Fridman
(laughs) Oh, wow. I wonder where he is now.
- RRRoger Reaves
Yes. (laughs)
- LFLex Fridman
So what, what was it like to fly? Maybe describe the details of do you have to fly low? Um, is- is there details that are unique to this experience of flying an airplane with drugs on it on board?
- RRRoger Reaves
All right. Well, one of the mistakes that just thous- hundreds and hundreds and thousands of pilots make, they don't stop at the border going down and get their permit. Once you get a permit to be in Mexico, you got it for six months. You can go anywhere, any fishing village, any little town, any little place, show 'em this and you're welcome.
- LFLex Fridman
Mm-hmm.
- RRRoger Reaves
If you don't have that, you go straight to jail. So you go down there and you think, "Okay, they're gonna have fuel for me to come back and so forth." "Oh, sorry, senor, that was, uh, had a rusty leak in it." (laughs)
- LFLex Fridman
Mm-hmm.
- RRRoger Reaves
"We don't have any." Well, you better be able to go to town and get it.
- LFLex Fridman
Yeah.
- RRRoger Reaves
So, uh, that's what I did. And when I was coming back for several years, I would fly, uh, fly up at Mexicali and cross the border right at Calexico just... I would act like I was landing on the Calexico side just after dark.
- LFLex Fridman
Mm-hmm.
- RRRoger Reaves
And then I would zip across the border and then go over to the Salton Sea and go below sea level 100 and something feet, I believe 170 feet, and come on up and go out there in a- above Palm Springs and land at 29 Palms in the desert.... and put my stuff under a Joshua tree and fly into town to get my pickup, and go on back out and get it, and that was fun. And then it got really dangerous. They had, uh, Operation Starlight, I believe was the name of it, and they caught a lot of pilots coming across the border. So I changed it, and by that time I was flying bigger planes. I was flying Beech 18s. And I would refuel in Mulegé on the, halfway down on the Baja Peninsula, and then over in the middle, 20 miles from the nearest road, was a, was a goat ranch where they milked goats and made cheese. And I would go there and, uh, unload the load coming up out of anywhere in southern Mexico, and I would land there and a guy named Juan would, uh, we'd put the, put the marijuana under the trees and I'd fly into Mulegé and they'd wash my plane and g- gash it up and I'd, I'd eat a lunch and rent a room for a few hours and take a nap and a shower, then go back in the afternoon and, and fill up. And then I would go northwest out of there and fly 200 miles off the coast of the island of Guadeloupe, and from there I would fly on a more northwesterly heading, about 300 miles out over the Pacific. And then I would come in behind the Santa Barbara Islands, down low, and then I'd come up and go out in the desert and land. And, uh, I did that for the rest of them marijuana trips.
- 25:44 – 28:34
Landing an airplane on the highway
- RRRoger Reaves
- LFLex Fridman
What was the hardest part about flying those routes?
- RRRoger Reaves
The hardest part was getting good marijuana. (laughs)
- LFLex Fridman
So the hardest part isn't the flying? The hardest-
- RRRoger Reaves
Not as the flying.
- LFLex Fridman
... part is just like driving your car down.
- RRRoger Reaves
But then I had people that would bring me on strips that were just unworthy of an airplane.
- LFLex Fridman
(laughs)
- RRRoger Reaves
Like when the, the... I'd land on a highway-
- LFLex Fridman
Yeah.
- RRRoger Reaves
... and, uh, and it's... and in the rainy season I would come back to land again and the guy would, uh, wouldn't think about it and he'd have like little hills on both sides and, uh, the wings were out there. Well, the, the grass and the weeds would grow up and it'd sound like (exhales sharply) I mean, it'd sound like tearing the airplane apart when those wings hit, mowing the grass down both, both shoulders of the airplane.
- LFLex Fridman
Oh, wow.
- RRRoger Reaves
The weeds would grow up high in the tropics. So some of that stuff was bad and, oh, getting bad gasoline and telling me that, "L- land here in the light and, and knock the wheels off when you land. Oh, you shoulda landed a little further up here, senor. There's a ditch down there." (laughs)
- LFLex Fridman
Yeah.
- RRRoger Reaves
You know, that sort of thing.
- LFLex Fridman
What, what was it like landing on a highway? And, and when did you have to land on a highway?
- RRRoger Reaves
I landed on a highway most of my life, most of the times. In Mexico, first time I went down, there was a place called Pichilingue and it had a 900-foot strip, and, uh, I would fly down and I'd carry gasoline with me and, uh, uh, Mari and I would, uh, go to the grocery store and buy all kind of little goodies and candies and toys to bring to the children. And, uh, that sand strip in the, in the bend of a river was just too short to take off with a load, so there was a young man there named Pedro, must not have weighed much over 100, maybe 120 pounds, and he'd get in the plane with me and, oh, he'd direct me 20, 30, 40 miles away to a highway. And the people walk in and the people would pull out in a two-ton truck with a machine gun on it and bunch of guys with their arms would just... and they'd block the road and then another one would block it up about a mile away and I'd land right over that truck and they'd load me up and it looked like a bucket brigade when the marijuana come in. I'd shake hands with all of them, then I'd take off right over the other trucks. And sometimes there'd be 20, 30, 40 cars lined up. Uh, one time I remember a, a patrol car, highway patrol car, with... he didn't have his lights on, took off right over him. And then, uh, when I started flying to Louisiana, the bridge over the Mississippi River, there were several contractors that went broke and that thing was out for years, and about five miles from the river was flashing red lights and a detour and then there's swamp on both sides of it. In the middle of it was growing up were 20 feet trees and that was like an international runway from anywhere in the world.
- LFLex Fridman
(laughs)
- RRRoger Reaves
So I landed on that over and over, those red lights were just like the end of a runway, and then the next morning we'd go out there and scrub the marks off the highway where I'd landed before daylight.
- LFLex Fridman
Wow.
- 28:34 – 38:58
Barry Seal
- LFLex Fridman
Let's go to somebody you've known well, somebody who is, who's also a drug smuggler, is Barry Seal. Who is Barry Seal? How did you meet him?
- RRRoger Reaves
Barry Seal is a friend of mine. Uh, Mari and I and the children went down in, uh, Honduras and we went up, uh, Lake Ozul, I believe it was, and we're looking at a, a ranch to buy. I was looking for something in Central America where I'd have a, a halfway place.
- LFLex Fridman
Mm-hmm.
- RRRoger Reaves
Oh, it was lovely. We stayed up there for some days and our clothes got muddy and we went in the river and all kind of thing. So we got to San Pedro Sula and, uh, we was going back to New Orleans. So, uh, went to, to the cleaners to get our clothes and most all of them was in there. And the guy, "Oh, senor, they'll be ready tomorrow morning. We're not ready now." Well, the plane leaves at 9:00 or whatever. So I told Mari to, to... for her and the children to go on to the airport because it'd be easier for one just on the standby flight. So I went to the, um, laundromat for the clothes and they were ready and there was a pile of them and I put them on my back and got in a taxi and the old taxi, we're driving with it and I'd give him $100 to go faster and he just blew his horn more rapid, so... (laughs)
- LFLex Fridman
(laughs)
- RRRoger Reaves
Finally we got to the airport and I jumped out and ran around on the tarmac and here's a brand new 727 taxiing out.
- LFLex Fridman
Wow.
- RRRoger Reaves
Oh, no. So I'm waving to the pilot and he's a young fella, and he waves back. Then I see Mari's face in the cockpit and then the nose goes down to where he puts on brakes and he laughs and he puts the stairwell out. And I run for the stairwell and he pulls it back up and goes like a hitchhiker, gonna pick you up and go, go again.
- LFLex Fridman
Yeah. Yeah. (laughs)
- RRRoger Reaves
Then he put it out and I got on and the whole crowd clapped and I'm coming home with that load of clothes.
- LFLex Fridman
(laughs)
- RRRoger Reaves
... so (laughs) I go way down in the middle and the pla- plane's full. And Miriam, uh, daughter's about nine years old then, and she was sitting in the middle and by the window was Barry Seal. Of course, I didn't know it. And I sit in the middle, and, uh, we took off and the wheels come up, went clunk. And then they got up about 5,000 feet and we had a little cl- clunk. And she said, "What was that, Daddy?" I said, "He just turned on his autopilot." And that feller reached over, and I done looked at him. I said, (laughs) "He looks like CIA or FBI, something."
- LFLex Fridman
(laughs)
- RRRoger Reaves
Man (laughs) , he ain't supposed to be here.
- LFLex Fridman
Yeah.
- RRRoger Reaves
Clear blue eyes, gentleman-looking man. And he said, he said, "You fly these things?" I said, "I got a few hours, mister." He said, "I, I fly them too," or something or other. And he said, "My name Barry Seal." And he reached over on Miriam and shook hands, and we got-
- LFLex Fridman
Uh-huh.
- RRRoger Reaves
... to talking. And, uh, I thought, "There's no choice of seats on this. It's just open seating, so..." But I don't believe him one bit. (laughs)
- LFLex Fridman
(laughs)
- RRRoger Reaves
And he started talking about he just got out of jail that morning, just got out of prison.
- LFLex Fridman
(laughs)
- RRRoger Reaves
And I said, "Uh-huh." (laughs)
- LFLex Fridman
(laughs)
- RRRoger Reaves
And he told me that he'd been a pilot with, um, TWA and this and other, and, uh, well, he told me about what he was for. And so we had a nice jo- conversation with a couple of hours to New Orleans. (clears throat) I didn't believe him.
- LFLex Fridman
Yeah.
- RRRoger Reaves
So he got off in front of us, and what a crowd of people w- to meet him. An old mother and a wife and little children hanging onto him, crying and hugging and kissing. I said, "He was telling the truth." (laughs)
- LFLex Fridman
(laughs) Uh-huh.
- RRRoger Reaves
So I reached over and gave him a, a little piece of paper I had them already write it out with our address. I said, "Barry, I might have some work for you."
- LFLex Fridman
(laughs)
- RRRoger Reaves
"Come on up to-"
- 38:58 – 43:50
Mena, Arkansas
- LFLex Fridman
Can you tell the story of the months that led up to Barry's assassination? What di- what, what, what did you know? What did you sense? What did you think?
- RRRoger Reaves
Okay. When I got out of prison, I hadn't been out long. I was, uh, watching... eating breakfast and there was Ronald Reagan's face right in the television. "We have absolute proof that the communist Sandinista government is into cocaine running business." And there was that fat lady, the C20- 126 on the runway with the belly in, and I thought, "Oh God-"
- LFLex Fridman
(laughs)
- RRRoger Reaves
"... he had done it." So I had heard that Barry might have been working with him. So it wasn't long before-
- LFLex Fridman
Working with?
- RRRoger Reaves
With the DEA or whoever. Yeah, he... that he had... he was no longer on our side, you know?
- LFLex Fridman
So, uh, can you clarify how you got that from the Reagan making a statement about, "We've heard..."?
- RRRoger Reaves
Okay, there was his plane. There was there... Barry's plane and... Okay, on the way north, we could stop in, in Nicaragua and land on a military base or on a, a base that they used as crop dusters and all, and refuel.
- LFLex Fridman
Yeah.
- RRRoger Reaves
And so that shortened our trip. We go further into the jungle and come up, and that was what Pablo Escobar and Ochoa and them, and they had, uh... they was associates with the, the people in, uh, Nicaragua.
- LFLex Fridman
So Barry was... if that plane was there, that means Barry was feeding the DEA information.
- RRRoger Reaves
He was working with them at that time. But let me back up a little bit. When, when I was flying and I told Barry we would... we would refuel an, uh, change airplane, the, the loads in Belize where I had a, a spot up there. And then that's when the... they told me, "We can refuel in, in, uh, Nicaragua and then you fly all the way." And Barry couldn't believe it. He says, "All right." But I wanted him to land... I had a place in Louisiana for $10,000 that I could land, unload, and the sheriff and all of them was paid off. And, uh, he said, "No, no, no, I can't get caught in Mena, Arkansas." I said, "What do you mean you can't get caught in Mena, Arkansas? You get caught anywhere." He said, "I can't." He said, "But it's going to cost you $50,000 every time my wheels touch the ground."
- LFLex Fridman
Why... Can you explain why he can't get caught in Mena, Arkansas?
- RRRoger Reaves
He said he was... he was hooked up with the... with some of the very top. And he even said, "I'm gonna have dinner with the governor tonight."
- LFLex Fridman
That's... at that time-
- RRRoger Reaves
So Mena, Arkansas-
- LFLex Fridman
... M- Mr. Bill Clinton.
- RRRoger Reaves
Undoubtedly. And it's like, did Bill Clinton... "Did you give him any money?" And I said, "No, I never gave the man any money." But it was like the money that I had went to Grand Cayman Islands. And I told my lawyer, I said, "I never touched that money." He said, "You don't have to fondle it to be guilty." So... (laughs) Uh-
- LFLex Fridman
So what... (sighs) I mean, there's a lot of conspiracy theories-
- RRRoger Reaves
And a lot of people-
- LFLex Fridman
... around the relationship between (laughs) Barry Seal and the Clintons.
- RRRoger Reaves
Absolutely.
- LFLex Fridman
What evidence do we have? What, what would you say from your best understanding, um, of what was the relationship between Bill Clinton and Barry Seal?
- RRRoger Reaves
Barry said, and he knew, that he couldn't get caught in Mena, Arkansas. And when that movie was gonna come out, be called Mena, somebody stopped it. I mean, they stopped it dead in the tracks for two or three years, and the producer even quit. I mean-
- LFLex Fridman
You mean the American Made with Tom Cruise movie?
- RRRoger Reaves
It wasn't American-
- LFLex Fridman
It was gonna be called Mena?
- RRRoger Reaves
It's... the name of it was written and produced as Mena. (laughs) And w- waiting on Hillary to be elected, they, they would not-
- LFLex Fridman
Oh, interesting.
- RRRoger Reaves
... let that movie out. And that movie was changed drastically.
- 43:50 – 57:03
Assassination of Barry Seal
- LFLex Fridman
Taking the story forward, uh, the months leading up to his assassination, what, what, uh, w- what do you understand why he was assassinated? What, w- who were the players involved? Maybe could you have stopped it?
- RRRoger Reaves
Well, I'll tell you, after I saw Reagan's face on the television saying, "We have the absolute proof," the phone rang, and it was Barry. I hadn't heard from him in a couple years, and he said, "I'm coming out tonight, Roger." And oh boy. So, uh, he came out and he said, "I'll meet you in this, uh, French restaurant." I don't even know it in Santa Barbara. And I walked in and there's about 20 or 30 people in there, and they was all 30, 40 years old, women with plastic or leather skirts and men in their blue jeans, and I looked around and Barry was at the back. He was leaned up, he had gained weight, and I walked up and I said, "Barry, are you wired?" He said, "No." I said, "Well, I'm not gonna talk. Are these DEA agents?" He said, "Every one of them."
- LFLex Fridman
(laughs)
- RRRoger Reaves
(laughs) So...
- LFLex Fridman
Ah, with jeans and skirts. I like it. (laughs)
- RRRoger Reaves
Oh, boy. So I said, "Well, Barry, I'm gonna sit you and you just talk to me, buddy, and tell me what's on your mind." And he sat there and he just went to talking, and he told me about that he was left holding the bag and that, um...
- LFLex Fridman
What do you mean by that? Like that nobody's supported him, no- nobody helped him out?
- RRRoger Reaves
Well, I think for some or another, he was, um, and, and I don't know this. I mean, this is just what-
- LFLex Fridman
Yeah.
- RRRoger Reaves
... what happened, uh, putting it all together, that he had some CIA buddies that was pretending, "We going to supply Oliver North with arms, and with that, you can land cocaine back here by the ton." So he's taking his little planes and putting some AK-47s and maybe ammunition or whatever, and takes it down to the Contras, uh, against the Communist Party of Nicaragua where we'd been landing, and Oliver North was involved in this. So, uh, when the, when all that... And so his CIA buddies was certainly involved. We know they were. And Barry had been in the CIA earlier when he first got out of school. So, uh, when, when, um, as they say, the shit hit the fan, they all fled and left Barry holding the bag.
- LFLex Fridman
The CIA and the DEA?
- RRRoger Reaves
Yeah. No, not the DEA, the CIA. The DEA wasn't in on it. The CIA was, was selling that cocaine and bringing it in, and, uh...
- LFLex Fridman
Just to clarify, uh, what's Iran-Contra scandal? What was the alleged involvement of the CIA in, uh, in using drug trade to fund things? What do you know? What do you think is true? What should we know?
- RRRoger Reaves
Well, I know what I know is true, that Barry was ha- taking a small amount of arms back to Central America and giving them to whoever Oliver North group, group were.
- LFLex Fridman
Who is Oliver North?
- RRRoger Reaves
Oliver North was a colonel that got implemented and almost brought the government down. And so they said, "All right, we're getting the guns from Iran, and we're taking cocaine to pay for them."
- LFLex Fridman
Yeah.
- RRRoger Reaves
"And since Congress won't give us money to fight this war, we gonna, we're gonna circumvent it." So that was, that was the whole thing.
- LFLex Fridman
So it was, uh, CIA's effort to circumvent the funding mechanisms of government by you- selling drugs?
- RRRoger Reaves
Yes, but it was a handful of renegade CIA agents that was Barry's friends that was making a load, a load of money, tons of it come up. If you would like to read the book, uh, The Big White Lie: The CIA and the Crack Cocaine Epidemic, the CIA put, according to this, uh, uh, the book and Michael Levine, I- I didn't remember his name last time I talked, uh, wrote that book, and he was a, a head CIA agent. He was a head DEA agent that exposed this, and the CIA tried to kill him. And he says they put crack cocaine... They developed their, their chemists developed crack, and they put it in every count- every city in the United States on one weekend. So, uh, they were bringing it up by the tons, and that's for sure.
- LFLex Fridman
Yeah.
- RRRoger Reaves
And Barry was bringing it.
- LFLex Fridman
Well, can I ask you a small tangent question? Do you think the public should trust the CIA and the DEA? Do you think they're mostly good people that are carrying out a good mission?
- RRRoger Reaves
Yes.
- LFLex Fridman
Because this kind of makes it sound like there's renegade agents that are just doing whatever the hell they want and w- with, uh, sometimes no regard for human life.
- RRRoger Reaves
Well, that's certainly true, but that's not everybody in there. That's just sometime you get a few policemen in a, in a department that- that do these things.
- LFLex Fridman
Yeah.
- RRRoger Reaves
I- I don't believe... I believe that our government is, is good.I think we got some fools running it.
- LFLex Fridman
Yeah.
- RRRoger Reaves
I don't know how we get 'em there, but, uh, (laughs) I don't-
- 57:03 – 1:01:14
American Made
- LFLex Fridman
The movie American Made, w- what do you think that movie got right? What did it get wrong?
- RRRoger Reaves
Almost everything wrong.
- LFLex Fridman
(laughs)
- RRRoger Reaves
(laughs) It was disgustingly wrong.
- LFLex Fridman
(laughs) Okay, um, which parts? Can you, can you, um... (laughs) Can you-
- RRRoger Reaves
Well, one movie-
- LFLex Fridman
... maybe elaborate?
- RRRoger Reaves
... it was about Barry Seal, and it just didn't even... It was nothing, uh, that... Whoever wrote it had no idea who Barry Seal was.
- LFLex Fridman
Hmm.
- RRRoger Reaves
They sat in a rocking chair and just tried to think of what was some baby-bashing drug dealer doing.
- LFLex Fridman
Yeah.
- RRRoger Reaves
And it's just like, God. Just, you just don't have any idea of the, of the spirit of the man.
- LFLex Fridman
So, they wanted just to try to tell a fun story without actually, uh, studying the story?
- RRRoger Reaves
He d- they didn't know him. They just had no idea.
- LFLex Fridman
Right.
- RRRoger Reaves
And Barry was such a nice person, such a really nice, gentleman person.
- LFLex Fridman
They talked to you, or no?
- RRRoger Reaves
No.
- LFLex Fridman
The people that made the movie?
- RRRoger Reaves
They didn't talk to me at all. Uh-uh. And, uh, I see all these people telling about, about Barry, never met him. They tell me all about him. I think that's just ridiculous.
- LFLex Fridman
Yeah.
- RRRoger Reaves
And, uh, that... For one thing, for his character, coming out of whorehouses and all that. That was just, like, ugly. And then, down in Colombia, putting a gun to his head, gonna take his sunglasses, and then he put 25,000- million dollars worth of cocaine on his plane, and then they're gonna bet $100 he don't have enough room to take off. (laughs) That's just insane.
- LFLex Fridman
Yeah.
- RRRoger Reaves
I mean, just, just, it... The whole thing. And then they, he's talking to the DEA agents when he's coming up. You don't know what fre- frequency they own. How he's got five planes, and they all split when the DEA comes out. These are just somebody's just fantasy about doing-
- LFLex Fridman
But those are, like, those are details of the man, details of the story. Is there some big, profound things they missed about just this whole period, about... That's something that's really important to you that was missed?
- RRRoger Reaves
Yes, they just try to, uh, sensationalize on little things that people remember, and it's just not true. It's just-
- LFLex Fridman
Yeah.
- RRRoger Reaves
It was just, like, a business deal, and, and, and, and good people, and good airplanes, and good flying, and, um... It w- it was like a, a, a, a good watch that was made. It just clicked, and it just went on. And they missed all that. They tried to make it sound like it's something very ugly.
- LFLex Fridman
Do you think it was a story that could've been told way better? And still be-
- RRRoger Reaves
Oh, my goodness, yes.
- 1:01:14 – 1:03:21
Blow
- LFLex Fridman
There's a movie called Blow that tells the story of George Jung, Boston George. Did you know George Jung? That's one way to ask it. The other is, what do you think of the movie Blow?
- RRRoger Reaves
I didn't know George Jung, but it was a wonderful movie.
- LFLex Fridman
(laughs)
- RRRoger Reaves
Absolutely, it captured it.
- LFLex Fridman
It did?
- RRRoger Reaves
Yes, it did. That's the way it should be.
- LFLex Fridman
So, he was a little bit before your time?
- RRRoger Reaves
Exactly the same time.
- LFLex Fridman
Exactly the same time?
- RRRoger Reaves
Same. He was, uh, using stewardesses to fly the marijuana out of, uh, Manhattan Beach, and I was on the fire- fire department in Redondo Beach 10 miles away.
- LFLex Fridman
Mm-hmm.
- RRRoger Reaves
Flying it up, sending it back. Somebody was sending it back. He might have been sending it back. But he didn't have near the excitement that I did. He- I was shot down twice, I escaped from five different prisons.
- LFLex Fridman
Yeah.
- RRRoger Reaves
I was tortured almost to death in a Mexican prison. So, he didn't have all that fun that I had.
- LFLex Fridman
Fun in quotes, yeah.
- RRRoger Reaves
Yeah.
- LFLex Fridman
So, yours is a- is a heck of a fun adventure. Uh, just to linger on a little bit, so, uh, Johnny Depp plays George and Ray Liotta plays his father, and there's this son/father kind of scene at the end. I don't know. It's- it's heartbreaking. Like, that scene paints a picture of a life that could have been had if none of this wild drug smuggling happened. I get- I don't usually, I mean, I don't al- almost, I really never get, like, teary-eyed in a movie, but that- that got me. It's almost like confronting, at the end of your life, what your life could have been with your father. The way he calls him Georgie. It, um, like, "You fucked up, Georgie." (laughs)
- RRRoger Reaves
Yes. (laughs) I did, too. I really, really did. Mario waited for me all those years and the children raised him without me, visiting me in prisons all over the world. Just unbelievable. It's just, nothing's worth that kind of money.
- LFLex Fridman
Yeah.
- RRRoger Reaves
(sighs)
- 1:03:21 – 1:08:01
Story of torture in a Mexican prison
- RRRoger Reaves
.
- LFLex Fridman
Can you tell the story of when you were tortured nearly to death in a Mexican prison?
- RRRoger Reaves
I sure can, and I'm smiling but it was nothing to smile about, I can tell you.
- LFLex Fridman
(laughs)
- RRRoger Reaves
I was, uh, I was in a pool and a gentleman came over and shook hands with me and put handcuffs on me and I thought, "What in the world?" That was at one of the nice hotels. They put me in a- in a jail cell and I sat there and all the drunks and thieves and stuff kept coming in and they had a bucket near overrun, and I saw 18 people in a room about 12- 12 foot square. Oh, it was hot and I thought, "Somebody's got to come get me. This is- this ain't real." I hadn't done anything. It's like, it was a pilot come to see me in, up in Hermosillo and he stopped and he made the mistake and went to the international runway instead of where he was supposed to go.
- LFLex Fridman
Mm-hmm.
- RRRoger Reaves
And he had my phony name in his pocket, so they got me. So, they said I was a drug smuggler. So, after about three days, they put me back into the- into the back and it was a torture place. And they put me in a little cell, like, I guess it wasn't hardly, it wasn't six feet. It must have been about five feet square and about 12 feet high and it was June, end of June, and it was hot. I mean hot. And, uh, they left me in there for, I guess, a few days. You didn't know they, uh... So, every once in a while they'd come drag me out and first off they put my head under water and it had seltzer in it or some kind and I took one whiff of that and three or four of them couldn't hold me down. So then, I learned that just before you have to breathe, tear loose like that and they'll let you up. (laughs) And, uh, that was the first treatment and then they- then they started, uh, beating me and, uh, they beat me with a blackjack and rubber hose until I was black and blue and yellow from the bottom of my feet to my head.
- LFLex Fridman
What did they want from you?
- RRRoger Reaves
They wanted to sign, me to sign a confession that I was a drug smuggler and-
- LFLex Fridman
Yeah.
- RRRoger Reaves
... they put the papers under your- under your nose, "This is all over if you'll sign." Well, I knew if you signed, you got six years. I wasn't gonna sign. (laughs) I wasn't gonna sign. So, uh-
- LFLex Fridman
But they didn't want you to snitch on anybody, they just wanted you to say-
- RRRoger Reaves
No, they didn't. They just wanted me to sign that paper.
- LFLex Fridman
And you still didn't.
- RRRoger Reaves
(laughs) I ain't about to.
- LFLex Fridman
Yeah.
- RRRoger Reaves
(laughs) I ain't, a beating ain't that bad. So... (laughs)
- LFLex Fridman
(exhales)
- RRRoger Reaves
So anyhow, it's coming to the good part. So then, they come and they take me out and I'm buck naked and they bend me over and they have things to pull you, like chains, click, click, click, click, click and they bent me over and they put butter on my bum and they-
- LFLex Fridman
Mm-hmm.
- RRRoger Reaves
... commenced to put hot chili pepper up there.
- LFLex Fridman
Mm.
- RRRoger Reaves
And that stuff was bad. I mean, it was red hot.
- LFLex Fridman
Mm-hmm.
- RRRoger Reaves
And that was- that was awful.
- LFLex Fridman
(laughs)
- RRRoger Reaves
(laughs)
- LFLex Fridman
And still- still-
- RRRoger Reaves
That was just awful.
- LFLex Fridman
Yeah, but still you didn't-
- 1:08:01 – 1:21:44
Getting shot down
- RRRoger Reaves
- LFLex Fridman
(laughs)
- RRRoger Reaves
I, I had got shot down, uh, a few weeks before that.
- LFLex Fridman
Yeah.
- RRRoger Reaves
I got shot plumb out the sky. It was 80 bullet holes through the plane. Killed a fellow on the ground. Shot the, shot the leg nearly off the man in the plane.
- LFLex Fridman
Where was this?
- RRRoger Reaves
In that little place of Pichilingue. You want me to tell you that story?
- LFLex Fridman
And they were shooting at you from the ground? Yeah, yeah.
- RRRoger Reaves
All right. A little 900-foot strip there at Pichilingue, a poor, poor village with starving donkeys, and that's where they'd ... I'd give them $17,000 for a load and I'd go over on the highway and load. Well, on g- on day 13, I did a load every day for 13 days. They had a bunch of marijuana pretty good piled up and I always go and load a day. And, uh, on day 13, I had that little warning sign going off in my stomach, "Uh-oh, uh-oh, don't do it." But I asked this Joaquin, "Oh, we had the Federales paid off and they're where we were." So I spent the night in a hammock and, uh, walked down to the airplane, j- just as it getting daylight, and 10 or 12 men walked with me, and Pedro got ... And I brushed my teeth in the little stream, was about foot deep, a little river coming through there. And got in the airplane and, uh, I fired her up, bam, blah, blam. And bam! I thought a tire blew out. I looked over and see if it was ... And, and still ain't dawned on me. And Pedro's yelling, "Policia! Policia, Roger! Policia!"
- LFLex Fridman
(laughs)
- RRRoger Reaves
(laughs) Well, it dawned on me and I shoved it, the throttle to the firewall. And, uh, I only had about-
- LFLex Fridman
So that was a bullet?
- RRRoger Reaves
Yeah, somebody, they, they just, off to the side, say they'd shot, they'd shot-
- LFLex Fridman
Yeah.
- RRRoger Reaves
... just a warning like, "Get out, stop."
- LFLex Fridman
Gotcha.
- RRRoger Reaves
"We're gonna, we're gonna rob you." Whatever it is. That's what they do.
- LFLex Fridman
Mm-hmm.
- RRRoger Reaves
They had taken the plane and me and put me in prison, the whole thing, so ... But I, even though I had papers. So, uh, I just shoved it a firewall, and there wasn't enough room to take off on that strip. And it, it was, half of it was behind me, or some of it-
- LFLex Fridman
Mm-hmm.
- RRRoger Reaves
... was behind me. And so just at the end, I'm just like, I think that thing stalled at about 50 miles an hour, just, just turning 50 and I just pulled it right up and, uh, put the flaps on. And as I pulled off the ground, they opened up on both sides of me with machine guns and they riddled that airplane. I mean, the windshield came out. I got hit three times. Uh-
- LFLex Fridman
You, like your body?
- RRRoger Reaves
Yeah. And, uh, uh-
- LFLex Fridman
Where did you get hit?
- RRRoger Reaves
Well, I didn't know I was hit. I mean, it was just the, the gasoline-
- LFLex Fridman
Just adrenaline?
- RRRoger Reaves
The gasoline just pouring in. The world turned yellow. I must have went into shock. So it just stopped in slow motion. And, uh, one bullet hit the strut right by my head and, uh, it just, uh, parts of that bullet just went all over me. I was just looked like I'd been peppered with, with, uh, lead. And, uh, the gasoline was just pouring in, I mean, just pouring in where they'd shot the wing up above.
- LFLex Fridman
Mm-hmm.
- RRRoger Reaves
And the windshield's gone. I did- I mean, I could, I could, you know, it was just like light- a hailstorm.
- LFLex Fridman
Mm-hmm.
Episode duration: 2:09:47
Install uListen for AI-powered chat & search across the full episode — Get Full Transcript
Transcript of episode Udh22kuLebg
Get more out of YouTube videos.
High quality summaries for YouTube videos. Accurate transcripts to search & find moments. Powered by ChatGPT & Claude AI.
Add to Chrome