Lex Fridman PodcastRyan Hall: Martial Arts and the Philosophy of Violence, Power, and Grace | Lex Fridman Podcast #125
EVERY SPOKEN WORD
155 min read · 30,827 words- 0:00 – 7:22
Introduction
- LFLex Fridman
The following is a conversation with Ryan Hall, one of the most insightful minds and systems thinkers in the martial arts world. He's a black belt in jujitsu, accomplished competitor, an MMA fighter undefeated in the UFC, and truly a philosopher who seeks to understand the underlying principles of the martial arts. Jujitsu is such an important part of who I am, and I was hoping to share that with folks who might know me only as a researcher. I think there's no better person to do that with than Ryan, who somehow, remarkably, I can say is a friend and also a modern-day warrior philosopher of the Miyamoto Musashi line of especially dangerous and brilliant humans. Also, his amazing wife, Jen Hall, was there as well. So, if you hear a kind of voice of wisdom coming from above, you know who it is. Quick summary of the sponsors: PowerDot, Babbel, and Cash App. Please check out the sponsors in the description to get a discount and to support this podcast. As a side note, let me say that renaming this podcast to just my name gave me intellectual freedom that I really didn't anticipate was so empowering, especially for someone who's trying to find their voice. I hope you'll allow me the chance to really try and do that, to step outside of AI and even science, engineering, history, and so on, and on occasion talk to athletes, musicians, writers, and maybe even (laughs) comedians who inspire me, especially up-and-coming comedians and musicians like Eric Weinstein, who, yes, we'll do a third conversation with soon. I think if I allow myself to expand the range of these conversations on occasion, when I do return to science and engineering, I'll bring a new perspective and also a little bit more fun and a few extra listeners that may not otherwise realize how fascinating artificial intelligence, robotics, mathematics, and engineering truly is. All that said, please skip the episodes that don't interest you. You don't have to listen to all of them. Trust me, as someone who is a bit or a lot OCD, that idea is quite unpleasant. But life, friends, is full of unpleasant things. But as Hunter S. Thompson suggested, and I suggest as well, you should still buy the ticket and take the ride. If you enjoy this thing, subscribe on YouTube, review it with five stars on Apple Podcast, follow on Spotify, support on Patreon, or connect with me on Twitter @LexFridman. As usual, I'll do a few minutes of ads now and no ads in the middle. I try to make these interesting, but I give you the timestamp, so please skip if you don't want to listen to the ads, but it does mean a lot to me when you do. And still please do check out the sponsors by clicking on links in the description. It really is the best way to support this podcast. This show is sponsored by PowerDot. Get it at powerdot.com/lex and use code "Lex" at checkout to get 20% off. I use it for muscle recovery for legs and shoulders, but you can also use it to build muscle, endurance, or even just warm up. In fact, I first heard about this kind of electrical muscle stimulation device in reading that Bruce Lee used it. He was an inspiration to me as someone who practices first principles thinking, especially in a discipline where conventional thinking is everywhere. He created a martial art called Jeet Kune Do that is in many ways, at least philosophically in its hybrid approach, a precursor to modern-day mixed martial arts. There's a special kind of deep philosophical thinking that combat athletes or jujitsu practitioners do that is unlike any other. I think it's grounded in the humbling process of getting your ass kicked a lot that removes any illusion of intellectual superiority. I think the journey towards wisdom starts when you humbly admit to yourself that you know very little or almost nothing. Anyway, go to powerdot.com/lex and use code "Lex" at checkout to get 20% off on top of the 30-day free trial. This show is also sponsored by Babbel, an app and website that gets you speaking in a new language within weeks. Go to babbel.com and use code "Lex" to get three months free. They offer 14 languages, including Spanish, French, Italian, German, and yes, Russian. Let me read a few lines from a Russian song by Vladimir Vysotsky called Ona Byla v Parishe that you'll start to understand if you sign up to Babbel: (singing in Russian) . This song always made me smile 'cause it resonates with my own life. It translates loosely to "She's Been to Paris." Paris for a Russian, I suppose, symbolizing a fancy life, and that the guy can never quite fit into that kind of life. Expensive things, nice restaurants, cars, all of that. I was thinking about what song is the equivalent in English. Maybe Uptown Girl by Billy Joel is similar in spirit, but (laughs) very different in style. I just watched a video on YouTube for Uptown Girl, and it's basically Billy Joel dressed up as, uh, a mechanic, but dancing in a way that I'm pretty sure no mechanic has ever danced, turning the old cringe factor up to 11. Anyway, I always felt like I didn't really fit in with the fancy people, and that's what this song represents. But back to, uh, Babbel. (laughs) Get started by visiting babbel.com and use code "Lex" to get three months free. This show is presented by the great, the powerful, the OG sponsor named unofficially after one of my favorite musicians, the Man in Black, Johnny Cash. That's Cash App, the number one finance app in the App Store. When you get it, use code "LEXPODCAST." The Cash App folks are truly amazing people and are teeming with ideas for cool contests, giveaways, and all that kind of stuff. I've been thinking of doing some kind of little contest and giving away 42 bucks to a bunch of people who win.It's not so much about the money, but the glory and the delicious taste of victory. If you have ideas for a contest, let me know. I was thinking of something like asking people to submit funny, inspiring photos or videos or audio of using Cash App or any of the sponsors of this podcast really. Or maybe even just funny things related to the podcast, like different weird places you might be watching or listening to me right now. I'm pretty sure there's somebody out there right now sitting in a hot tub with some wine watching me say this. I salute you, sir or madam. I may be opening up some floodgates I deeply regret later, so please make sure you're wearing clothes in whatever you send me. There will be no naked people in the hot tub as part of this podcast. I have integrity and standards. (laughs) Let me know in the comments what ideas for contests you might have. Again, if you get Cash App from the app store or Google Play and use the code LEXPODCAST, you get $10 and Cash App will also donate $10 to FIRST, an organization that is helping to advance robotics and STEM education for young people around the world. And now, here's my conversation with Ryan Hall.
- 7:22 – 11:48
Greatest warrior in history
- LFLex Fridman
Who, in your view, is the greatest warrior in history, ancient or modern?
- RHRyan Hall
That's a tough question and, and again, I'm, I'm no historian by any measure, (laughs) so I'll probably do the worst. Like, what are your best bands ever? I'm like, "Metallica?"
- LFLex Fridman
(laughs)
- RHRyan Hall
And, you know, so I'll pick the-
- LFLex Fridman
Metallica just came out with a new album, by the way-
- RHRyan Hall
Oh, that's-
- LFLex Fridman
... with an entire orchestra.
- RHRyan Hall
That's, that's kind of cool.
- LFLex Fridman
Yeah.
- RHRyan Hall
I support that.
- LFLex Fridman
Metallica will, will always be one of the greatest.
- RHRyan Hall
Yeah, that's
- LFLex Fridman
So, I agree with you.
- RHRyan Hall
... still a bad example if they were, if they were a well-known yet awesome band. Let me say like, uh, Nickelback or something like that. But that, but I feel, that feels cheap because everyone makes fun of Nickelback.
- LFLex Fridman
Yeah.
- RHRyan Hall
I don't know. I, I guess it depends on how you want to define warrior. Something that I think about when it comes to trying to evaluate various people or situations or things that I've read about or heard about are, uh, the circumstances that they were involved in because I, I think a lot of times, it's easy to look at the outcomes. And obviously outcome, we live in an outcome-driven world and, and, you know, outcomes do matter. But at the same time, like, uh, you know, you look at, let's say what Cuba's been able to pull off, you know, from a combat sports perspective. It's, it's staggering, you know? Like, the amount of successful Olympic level competitors they have in wrestling, boxing, judo. Uh, I mean, they're a tiny little island with no money and no people. It's, it's shocking, you know, when you com- you think about the Olympics in the United States doing well. Of course, we should do well. I mean, Russia should do well. China should do well. Uh, India should do better than they do, honestly. Like, obviously it means, like, they're not into it as much, or at least certain sports because they have the resources people-wise, um, so talent's not gonna be an issue.
- LFLex Fridman
So there's something to, like, where the starting point is. Like, that's the argument with, like, uh, why people say Maradona, I don't know if you're into, uh-
- RHRyan Hall
Oh yeah, big
- LFLex Fridman
Soccer fan. ... soccer. (laughs) Okay. They say Maradona is, is, is better than Messi because he basically carried the team and, and won the World Cup with a team that wouldn't otherwise win the World Cup. And then Messi was only successful in Barcelona because, uh, he has, like, superstars. He's playing with other superstars.
- RHRyan Hall
Right. Yeah, that's fair to say. I mean, like, like, you know how it is, there's a lot of factors that go into, let's say, winning a, winning a soccer game. And, you know, obviously Barcelona, you know, particularly for various points in time had a ridiculous all-star squad of world-class players. But, um, and I, you know, let's say for instance, maybe they didn't have the creative players in, in Argentina they needed to get the ball up to Messi, you know? They didn't have like the Iniesta and, you know, the, you know, the, again, the backing there in the midfield. But, um, 'cause obviously Argentina's always had ridiculous attacking players, like even alongside Messi. But they're like the three killers up front-
- LFLex Fridman
Mm-hmm.
- RHRyan Hall
... and then little less be- behind.
- LFLex Fridman
So it's interesting y- you say that it depends how you define warrior 'cause y- you could probably take, like, some of the civil rights leaders. You, you can go into that direction-
- RHRyan Hall
Yeah.
- LFLex Fridman
... like leaders in general. But if we just look at, like, the greatest martial artists in history, in that direction, do you have somebody in mind?
- RHRyan Hall
I, I would say at least three, three that pop into my head and, um, would be, uh, Hannibal, um, Alexander the Great, and then maybe Miyamoto Musashi. Um, you know, the two commanders and then one, you know, guy. But, uh, so it's, it's, it's interesting. And then, a- again, you mentioned warriors being able to make a lot out of a little. Uh, you know, Musashi's famous for winning duels, you know, that were oftentimes one o- they were one on one. You know, the, Alexander and Hannibal were, you know, military commanders and one of them faced Rome, and that was an interesting thing. Oftentimes, you know, coming up with novel tactics, different strategies, sometimes under-resourced, doing, having to do novel and crazy things. Their skin in the game, that's an interesting thing too. I think a lot of times, you know, it's, uh, if you're playing a video game, I don't think you can be a warrior because there's, there's no skin in the game. You get hurt, you lose. Ah, it's a bummer. It stings a little bit, maybe makes you feel s- slightly disappointed. But, uh, you know, Musashi loses, he loses. Um, Hannibal loses, he loses. Alexander loses, he loses and they lose, uh, I guess the, the people around them lose. So that's almost like, uh, you could use, even from a combat sports perspective, a Muhammad Ali. I mean, you consider also their quality of opposition. Musashi was fighting high-quality opposition. Obviously, Hannibal and A- Alexander, particularly Hannibal, were fighting unbelievable opposition. Muhammad Ali fought phenomenal opposition, but he had skin in the game both in the ring and out, and that actually meshes with, as you mentioned, like a civil rights, you know, type of situation where you are under-resourced. You're pushing the stone uphill. And that was a neat thing I think about Muhammad Ali was how much, you know, personal conviction the man had to have in order to pull off what he was able to pull off, both in, in and outside of the ring. And that reminds me of, of again, some of the other great leaders or great fighters
- 11:48 – 17:32
Genghis Khan
- RHRyan Hall
throughout history.
- LFLex Fridman
So what do you make of the kind of very difficult idea that some of these conquerors like Alexander the Great and somebody that, uh, if you listen to Hardcore History (laughs) or Dan Carlin, uh, who, uh, apparently Elon Musk is also a big f- uh, fan of is the Genghis Khan episode.
- RHRyan Hall
Mm-hmm.
- LFLex Fridman
You know, a, a large...... percent of the world is, uh, is, uh, can call Genghis Khan an ancestor. So, the difficult truth is about some of these conquerors is that there's a lot of murder and, uh, rape and pillage and stealing of resources and all that kind of stuff, and yet they're often remembered as quite honorable. I mean, in the case of Genghis Khan, there's a lot of people who argue, if you look at the, historically the way it's described, in full context, is he was ultimately like a lip- er, given the time he was a liberator. He was a, he was a progressive, (laughs) I should say.
- RHRyan Hall
Mm-hmm.
- LFLex Fridman
Uh, you know, like in terms of the- the violence and atrocities he committed, he, at least in the stories, has always provided the option of not to do that. It's only if you resist, do-
- RHRyan Hall
Mm-hmm.
- LFLex Fridman
So you basically have the option, "Do you want to join us or do you want to die? And die horribly." Uh, (laughs) so, that's the progressive sort of, uh-
- RHRyan Hall
Right.
- LFLex Fridman
... that's the Bernie Sanders of the era.
- RHRyan Hall
Nice.
- LFLex Fridman
(Laughs) . So, uh, what do you make of that? That there's just so much, of these great conquerors, there's so much murder that to us now would just seem insane.
- RHRyan Hall
It's funny you mention it. I th- I think that maybe it's a human nature thing that we want to, uh, or, you know, maybe, or maybe a misunderstanding thing that we want to cast all of our characters and ourselves maybe as entirely good or as entirely negative when, you know, I guess I was... The phrase or the saying, you know, one man's freedom fighter is another person's terrorist, um, is accurate. And a lot of times I think you can understand, as long as you're able to look from various people's perspective. Like, if you look at, uh, the TV show The Wire, um, which was obviously, you know, widely everybody loves The Wire. Um, I thought that there were, everyone, I mean, it's not, I'm not saying anything that's- that's not been said before, compelling characters from all angles. Whether you liked a character or disliked a character, you were able to understand the motivations of people doing various things. Even if they did wrongly, they did rightly. You know, we wanna cast all of the- the- the demons throughout history as- as completely inhuman when I think that makes it difficult for us to understand them. And we wanna look back at- at the people that we think of as great, um, and entirely great, and I think that we're, you know, we're experiencing the problems with this, you know, even right now socially and politically as we're trying to look back and decide that people we thought were good are not good, or people we thought were bad are now good. Rather than going, "Hey, there's- there's good and bad to all things." And there are, as you mentioned, the Genghis Khan thing, you don't have to fight back. You do, I respect you for it, but then we're gonna have a conflict and then we'll see what happens and if you lose you're gonna be sorry that you did because I have to make it that way if I wanna continue utilizing this- this kind of MO, because I need to discourage the next guy from doing what you're doing right now. And ultimately though, I guess that's an interesting thing. Imagine you put every single person on planet Earth in a cage. Crime drops, you know? (laughs) Uh, all sort... There are certain positives to that and I- it's just things are as they are. It's difficult but that is ultimately more the law of the jungle and I think that we're able to supersede some of that now in modern times and I think we're fortunate. But, a- as you mentioned, we look back and say, "Oh, this is horrible." Say, no, that- that just is what it is. That's how life is at a base level and, you know, again, if you're a lion and I'm a gazelle, I don't- I don't really like it very much. But we don't call the lion the bad guy. We don't sanctify the gazelle or the other way around so it's- it's just, it's interesting when you pull back some of the controls that we put on our behavior and, you know, in modern life, which I think are generally speaking positive, you know, we get down to how things often are and at the same time we- we could... Modern life was built by people like Genghis Khan. So, then you get down to the ends justifying the means, it's a tough question. These aren't things with easy answers, or at least if they are I certainly don't have the- the smarts to figure out the answers to them. But, uh, it's- it's difficult. I would just say people in the world are- are complicated and layered and depending upon which side of the line you're standing on at various times, you know, um, you may like or dislike someone but I- I can't remember, uh, uh, it's, I can't remember who's- whose idea it was, this is killing me, but it's the veil of ignorance, I guess, um, the philosophical. You know, um, you know, idea of the veil of ignorance where I go, "Is- is sticking everyone in a cage the right thing to do?" And I say, or everyone but me and I say, "Well, no." Why? Well, it would make my life easier if I just went over there and took all of your stuff, as long as you couldn't stop me. I mean, of course that's a great idea, that's what everyone does in every video game (laughs) . But, uh, in Skyrim you steal stuff when people aren't around but, um, ultimately you go, "Well, this isn't the right thing to do because if I were on the other side of it, I would, I would not appreciate it. It's- it's inherently not a good thing to do. I'm only doing it because I think I'm gonna win." And that's a fine way to be but you don't have the white hat on, I guess I would say. So, I- I think without those philosophical underpinnings to reign us in, you know, I guess morally speaking, it's- it's very difficult to say what's right or wrong and you- you just say certain actions have a reaction, almost like a physics sense. If you kill everyone in your way for as long as you're able to, your life will be easier. I mean, you're setting the table for someone doing the same to you when you're no longer the tough guy but
- 17:32 – 21:49
Nature is metal
- RHRyan Hall
it is what it is.
- LFLex Fridman
Yeah, if you look at like the Instagram channel Nature As Metal, it hurts my heart to watch, to remind me, a comfortable descendant of ape, how vicious nature is. Just unapologetically, uh, just... I mean, there's a, there's a process to it where the bad guy always wins. (laughs) The- the violence is the solution to most problems or- or the flip side of that, running away from violence is the solution depending on your skillset and it's funny to think of us humans with our extra little piece of brain that we're somehow trying to figure out, like you said, in a philosophical way how to supersede that, how to like move past.... the viciousness, the cruelty, the, just the cold exchange of nature. But perhaps it's not so. Maybe that is nature, maybe that's the way of life, maybe we're trying too hard to, uh, we're- we're being too egotistical in thinking we're somehow separate from nature, we're somehow distant from that very thing.
- RHRyan Hall
I couldn't agree with you more. In fact, I think actually Orson Scott Card, you know, who's the writer of a, a great book called Ender's Game, um, was... This was a, a statement that, that the main character, you know, Ender, uh, made in the book. His brother was brilliant, um, his brother was like, kinda sociopathic brilliant kid that was, ended up kicked out of the school that they were all into for battle commander. Dealing with his brother taught him that ultimately strength, courage, the ability to do violence, uh, for all the good and bad of that, is one of the fundamental most important things to be able to do in life, because if you can't cause destruction, if you can't cause pain, you will be forever subject to those who can. And I think that you mentioned egotism, I think that, that's, uh, a disease that could obviously strike any of us, but it's something that we're looking at now, we're, you know... I think we should be unbelievably thankful as people that live in the world that, that we do, um, that we can walk down the street without having to worry that, um, like, well, don't worry, th- that 6'6", 270 pound person over there, uh, is just gonna leave me alone. And I have a Rolex on, but whatever, I'll be fine, because that person's deciding to leave me alone because we've all agreed to live in this relatively, you know, sane and/or, you know, constrained society because it benefits all of us, and we're doing it because of a philosophical underpinning, not because nature dictates it be that way, because nature dictates it go in a very, very different direction. And the only person, the only thing stopping that person from doing something to me is either me, that person, or someone else that will stand in between us. And if I can't do it, and there's no one there to stand in between us, then the only thing stopping that person is that person, and I have to hope that they're, uh, either disinterested or disinclined to do that sort of thing. And I, I think that, uh, you know, it's keeping in mind that, that that is the fundamental nature of the world, whether we like it or not, um, is important. And I think the, the quest to, to fundamentally alter human nature is gonna be ultimately fruitless, and then also it's- it is a little bit egotistical. A lion does what a lion does. You know, we, we can try to box it in and we can try to, you know, guide this direction, that direction, but, you know, th- nature is as it is and as it always will be unless we wanna start to constrain it significantly, but now I'm starting to get into individual rights. Who put me in charge? Who says that I should be the one to make the choices constraining? Because many of the most awful things that have happened throughout history, one group or one person has decided to constrain others. And we don't like Genghis Khan doing that, well, I'll do that on a little level. Are there gonna be benefic- benefits and beneficiaries? Absolutely, but there'll be losers in that too, so I guess it's a, it's a dangerous game. It's almost like putting on the one ring. Uh, remember when Frodo offered the one ring to Gandalf, and Gandalf said, "No, no, I would take it away. I would put it on, I would use it out of a desire to do good, but through me, it would wield a power so terrible you can't imagine." I think that's- that's the big question for anyone that decides, that's able to have reach and able to have power. I mean, obviously I can't speak to that, but imagine you did have national level, global level power. How would you use it? Would you try to change the world? Would you be glad that you did down the line? I don't know.
- 21:49 – 36:11
Cancel culture
- RHRyan Hall
- LFLex Fridman
Yeah, there's, uh... I mean, that's the thing we're struggling now as a society, maybe it'd be nice to get your quick comment on that, which is, um, the people who have traditionally been powerless are now, you know, seeking a fairer society, a more equal society. And in, in attaining more power justly, uh, there's also a realization, at least from my perspective, that power corrupts everyone. Even if you're, even if the flag you wave is that of, of justice, right? And so, you know, not to overuse the term, but it'd be nice if you have thoughts about the whole idea of cancel culture and the internet (laughs) and, and Twitter and so on, where there's, uh, nuanced, difficult discussions of, um, of race, of gender, of fairness, equality, justice, all of these kinds of things. There's a shouting down oftentimes of nuanced discussion, of kind of trying to reason through these very difficult issues, through our history, through what our future looks like. Do you have thoughts about the internet discourse that's going on now? Is there something positive (laughs) -
- RHRyan Hall
Yeah, I mean, I-
- LFLex Fridman
... that we can pull out of this?
- RHRyan Hall
It's, it's an interesting thing to see, I guess. A- as you mentioned, any time you're wielding power, whomever you are, doing so carefully is, is important, and it's very, very easy to look at the people that have power and that are using it poorly or have used it poorly and go, "Hey, you're the bad guy," and then go, "Well, of course, if I had power, I'll, I'll use it properly," and I may intend to use it properly and maybe I will. But at the same time, we see a lot of times people are people are people. I think that, um, a lot of the... I- I think if you, if you believe that, that human beings are all one, which I do, you know, no matter whether you're here or there, you're, you're, you've got two arms, two legs, a heart, a brain, we all live a similar experience, you know, and obviously with variations on a theme. But, uh, you know, you're no less a human being if, if, uh, you're a person I've never met from China than, than some person in, in Virginia. It's, we're all, we're all people, and I guess ultimately if I believe that human beings are corruptible and that power corrupts and that we're all fallible and we say and do things that either intentionally or unintentionally, um, that we wish we'd not, um...... I think that the, I have to allow for a s- space, uh, I guess, with the word t- it's almost a religious term, but I guess I would just say grace. And that's something that I see disappearing from discourse in the public, or maybe it wasn't there, I'm not sure, but it's interesting, you know, watching this occur on the internet because also now, no longer are you and I just having a, a talk sitting on a, on a bus stop, it's now in writing. Everything's in writing. The old, the old saying, like, "Don't put that in writing."
- LFLex Fridman
Yeah.
- RHRyan Hall
You're like, "Don't put anything in writing. That's how you get in trouble." And basically, uh, you know, with, with the degree to which everything is recorded, but recorded in tiny little bites, it's very, very easy for me to wave every last little foolish, ignorant, incorrect, or correct thing that someone has ever said or done in their face to support whatever argument that I'm trying to make about them or, or a situation. And I, I think that you mentioned cancel culture or, uh, you know, as it seems to exist, obviously this is poisonous. On its face, this is poisonous. Um, it's, it's the sort of thing that doesn't incentivize proper behavior. I mean, you look at, let's say, one of the great monsters of history, Adolf Hitler, obviously who's done awful, awful things, but also for anyone that's, uh, even a minor student of history, did some positive things as well. We don't have to, I don't have to embroider this person's crimes. I don't have to act as if there was nothing good a monster has ever done and nothing bad that, that a great person throughout history has ever done. But imagine the ghost of Adolf Hitler were to pop up and go, "Oh my gosh, guys, I'm so sorry. I, I know what I've done. Uh, but I'd like to apologize and start to make it right." Well, I mean, you'd hope that y- you know, if he popped up over here, you go like, "Well, I don't really like (laughs) what you've done (laughs) and I don't like you, but at the same time, I'm glad to hear that you're attempting to make this right and push in a positive direction even if you can't make it right." Because otherwise, what am I doing? I'm disincentivizing change for the better. I'm, I'm looking to wield whatever power I have in a punitive fashion, um, which does not encourage people to do anything other than double down on, on the wrongs that they've made knowing that at least they're gonna have some support from the people that support that. And I, I guess, I want to u- you would hopefully look at the use of the internet as a, as a tool that can educate, and I guess that I don't like the word empower, but empower people to do various things, extend their reach, but, uh, but educate and learn rather than to further solidify little tribal things that did exist, which I think everyone in humanity and human history is, is vulnerable too. I mean, look at the course of human history, it's deeply tribal. And the tribes or the groups that have been on top at various points in time have done a lot of times bad things to the ones that have not, and you'd hope that we could learn lessons from the past and rather than, you know, committing the crimes that were, you know, that were committed against us, recommitted them when we slide into the top position, um, say, "You know, I could do this now, but I'll not." You know, I understand the urge to, to seek vengeance is strong. Uh, anyone that says differently I don't, I wouldn't trust. (laughs) You know? But at the same time, we go, I've, we, we have enough experience and history, enough experience in life, enough hopefully wisdom, and you know, time in to go, "This isn't the right answer. This is only gonna replay the things, the, the worst parts of our history, not the best." And I want to encourage positive behavior. And if I just, again, further lash out at people, although understandably, uh, uh, done, done understandably, I'm, I'm simply just gonna just perpetuate the cycle that's gone on to this point. So, you hope that even though we're seeing a lot of, uh, a lot of turmoil societally at the moment and globally at the moment, that, uh, I guess our better angels can prevail at a certain point. But it's gonna take a great deal of leadership, and I think that we're, we're sorely missing like a Martin Luther King style character at the moment or a great leader and I just... I'm hoping that one will show up.
- LFLex Fridman
For sure. And by the way, a word I don't hear often, and I think it's a beautiful one, which is grace. That's a really interesting word. I'm gonna have to think about that. It i- uh, there is a religious component to it, but it's exactly right. It, um, you have to somehow walk the line between, you know, when you mentioned Hitler, I've been reading, uh, The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich. I'm really thinking about the 1930s (sighs) and what, what it's like to have, um, economic... My concern is the economic pain that people are feeling now quietly is really a suffering that's not being heard, and there's echoes of that in the, in the '20s and the '30s with the Great Depression, and there's a hunger for a charismatic leader. Like you said, there's a leader that could walk with grace, could inspire, could, uh, could bring people together with, uh, with sort of, uh, dreams of a better future that's positive, but, uh, Hitler did exactly everything that I just said except for the word positive, which is he did cre- give a dream to the German people who were a great people, who are a great people, of, um, of a better future. It's just that a certain point that quickly turned into the better future requires literally expansion of more land. It started with, "Well, if we wanna build a great Germany, we need a little bit more land, and so we need to kind of get Austria, then we need to kinda get France, mostly because France doesn't understand that more land is really useful, so we need to get rid of them."
- RHRyan Hall
And look what they did to us in Versailles anyway.
- LFLex Fridman
But, so the Jew- the Jewish, uh, the Holocaust is a separate thing. I don't know... Well, I don't know. I don't know what to think of it because, uh, so me being Jewish and having a lot of... so the echoes of the suffering is in my family, uh, the people that are lost. I don't know because Hitler wrote all about it in Mein Kampf, so I don't know if the evil he committed was all- there all along. I mean, a- and that...... that's where the question of forgiveness... I mean, Hitler is such a difficult person to talk about, but it's the question of, on cancel culture, who is deserving of forgiveness and who is not? Like, the Holocaust survivors that I've read about, that I've heard the interviews with, they've often spoken about the fact that the way for them to let go, to overcome the atrocities that they've experienced is to forgive. Like forgiveness is the way out for them. It's interesting to think about. I, I don't know, I don't know if, I don't know if we're even, as a society, ready to even contemplate an idea of forgiveness for Hitler. It's, it's an interesting idea though. It was, it's a good thought exercise at the very least, to think about, like, all these people that are being canceled, uh, for doing bad things of different degrees. If you think of, like, Louis C.K. or somebody like that, for being not a good person, but, like, what is the path for forgiveness?
- RHRyan Hall
And also, what's a good person?
- LFLex Fridman
What is the good person?
- RHRyan Hall
If that, if that's a sliding scale that we could all find ourselves looking at the uncomfortable end of a gun on, you know, particularly down the line, I mean, hope for the best, but these definitions, I guess, like you said, are important and who's doing the canceling? Who's being canceled? I'm not necessarily, as you said, saying that that's entirely unjustified or certainly not, it's certainly understandable and particularly you mentioned, like, a mon- monster like an Adolf Hitler, but it's also interesting, I couldn't help but notice, like you mentioned, as, as a society us being able to apply forgiveness to someone who's done so much horror, but people who are personal, I mean, of course many, so many people have been personally affected, but directly personally affected, someone, a survivor of the Holocaust being able to let go on that, I'm nowhere near big enough a person for (laughs) that sort of thing. But, I guess that's, that's an interesting thing, you know, being the person who was physically there, potentially able to, able to let go, I don't know, that's, that's unbelievably powerful. It's, it's interesting. I guess you have to wonder sometimes, and this isn't obviously in regards to, to that, to the Holocaust, but why, why I'm holding onto various things. Have I... What is it doing for me and what is it doing to me? Is it facilitative? Is it not? And I guess that's something else that I, I really enjoyed when I was on Ultimate Fighter, they, uh, they don't let you have, um, any music or any books, anything religious text, so I brought a Bible and I brought a Quran and I started to read them side by side and it was, it was really interesting reading. The Bible's a little drier, Quran's, the Quran's more interesting, I believe it's written. But, um, I think something that, that was consistently brought up, uh, was the way, most merciful. People want, I don't think any of us want justice. We think we want justice, but I don't think we want justice. Justice is a dangerous, dangerous, dangerous game because maybe this person's wronged me deeply and I, I want justice, I want to balance it out, 'cause what is justice, if not a balancing of the scales? And sometimes you can understand it and on a societal level I think it's fine, I mean, there's crime and punishment and you can go for the benefits and the drawbacks of that. But what I think what any of us want is mercy, within reason. You know, grace, as you mentioned, 'cause justice is a very, very, very dangerous thing and it's a valuable and important thing, but who gets to decide what's just, what justice is actually meted out? Maybe I get to mete out justice, but it's not, I don't get my comeuppance. Well, that sounds great, but what happens when it's pointed back at me? And, uh, I guess that comes back to the veil of ignorance. You know, the idea that, that one day I will have to live in the world in which I've envisioned and the world in which I've created. I, I think that a lot of times people love the idea of, uh, they're a judge for your crimes and a lawyer for theirs. And, uh, I heard that the other day, I thought it was great. And, uh, I, I think that's a, that's a dangerous thing and hopefully it gives us all pause before, rightly or wrongly, but always understandably, you know, wielding, wielding serious power.
- LFLex Fridman
Yeah, justice is a kind of drug. So if you look at history, I've also been reading a lot about Stalin. I mean, all those folks really, I don't know, I don't know what was inside Hitler's head actually. He's a tricky one because I think he was legitimately insane. Stalin was not and Stalin was like, he literally thought he's doing a good thing. He literally thought for the entirety of the time that communism is going to bring, like that's the utopia and is going to create a happy world. And in his, in his mind were ideas of justice, of fairness, of happiness, of, of, um, yeah, human flourishing and that's, that's a drug and it somehow sadly pollutes the mind. When you start thinking like that, what's good for society and believing that you have a good sense of what's good for society, that's intoxicating, especially when others around you are feeling the same way and then you start, like, building up this movement and you forget that you are just like a, you're, you're like barely recently evolved from an ape, like you don't know what the hell you're doing and then you start, like, killing witches or whatever, like you start, you start doing-
- RHRyan Hall
They did math. Let's be honest though, I mean, sometimes which has to go.
- LFLex Fridman
Which... (laughs) Yeah, we can all agree there, which, a witch has to go if it floats or sinks, which one, I forget which one it is.
- RHRyan Hall
Whichever one we need at the time honestly.
- LFLex Fridman
(laughs)
- RHRyan Hall
If it was floating, it should've sunk.
- LFLex Fridman
(laughs) Uh, yeah, but yeah, we can definitely agree that witches have to go.
- 36:11 – 44:50
Sci-fi books and movies
- LFLex Fridman
Because you brought it up, I, uh, tweeted recently but also just, um, one of the things I'm really ashamed of in my life is I haven't really read almost any of the sci-fi classics.
- RHRyan Hall
Really?
- LFLex Fridman
Yeah. So, like, I, my whole journey through reading was through, like, the literary philosophers I would say like Camus, Hesse, Dostoevsky, um...... Kafka, like, that place. Like, that's a kind of sci-fi world in itself, but it's, it, it just, (sighs) it creates a world in which the, the deepest questions about human nature can be explored. I didn't realize this but the sci-fi world is the same, it just puts it in a, it like, removes it from any kind of historical context where you can explore those same ideas in like space, somewhere elsewhere in a different time, a different place. It allows you almost like more freedom to like construct these artificial things where you can just do crazy, uh, crazy kind of human experiments. So, I'm now working through it. Uh, the books on my list are the Foundation series by Isaac Asimov, Dune, uh, Snow Crash by Neal Stephenson, and Ender's Game, like you mentioned. Uh, that's just kind of... And then, so I posted that and then of course, like Elon Musk, John, uh, Carmack, I don't know if you know him, creator of Doom and Quake and-
- RHRyan Hall
Oh, cool.
- LFLex Fridman
... all that stuff. See they all pitched in. These nerds, these ultra nerds just started like going like, "These," (laughs) uh, "You need to read this, that and, and the other." So, I've like started working out, okay. But it seems like the list I've mentioned holds up somewhat. Is there a book... Is there sci-fi books or series or authors that, that you find are just amazing? Maybe another way to ask that is like, what's the greatest sci-fi book of all time?
- RHRyan Hall
Well, I, I'd like to start by, uh, sharing something that I, I'm embarrassed about.
- LFLex Fridman
Yeah.
- RHRyan Hall
Is that I haven't read anything other than, uh, you know, Orson Scott Card-
- LFLex Fridman
Yeah.
- RHRyan Hall
... J.R.R Tolkien, uh, Frank Herbert. Tolkien, yep.
- LFLex Fridman
Dune.
- RHRyan Hall
Yep.
- LFLex Fridman
Yeah.
- RHRyan Hall
Uh, yeah, I'm, I'm aware through Wikipedia and, uh, through, through surface reading of things that like a book called The Republic was written once. Um...
- LFLex Fridman
Yeah.
- RHRyan Hall
There were some other, some other good ones.
- LFLex Fridman
So you read Wikip- you're a, a prolific reader of Wikipedia articles.
- RHRyan Hall
Well...
- LFLex Fridman
Or occasional. (laughs)
- RHRyan Hall
Oci- uh, occasionally. Exactly. In between, uh, whatever else it is that I waste my time on. But- (laughs)
- LFLex Fridman
(laughs) But yeah, so I also, I should say, I posted on Reddit questions for, uh, Ryan Hall and there's like a million questions but like, uh, half of them have to do with Dune. No, not really. But like, people bring up Dune. I don't understand why. I, did you mention Dune before?
- RHRyan Hall
Um, well, actually, we actually have, Sugar Roll actually made us a, a gi, a Dune themed gi one time, which I thought was kind of cool. I'll send you one, I'll give you one, we got extras.
- LFLex Fridman
That's awesome. (laughs)
- RHRyan Hall
But, uh, actually to, to your, to your point actually, this is a Orson Scott Card quote actually, the writer of Ender's Game, um, "Fiction, because it's not about somebody who actually lived in the real world, always has the possibility about, of being about oneself." And I, I think that's a neat thing because I have heard, you know, o- other v- people whom I respect and are very sharp people actually every now and then dig their heels and go, "I don't like fiction. I only like non-fiction. It's more, it's more instructive." And I would go, "I completely disagree with that." I think we have a hard enough time figuring out what happened at 7-Eleven three hours ago that, "Let me tell you what happened 600 years BC." I'm like, "Hey, I'm interested but don't tell me this isn't a story too."
- LFLex Fridman
Yeah.
- RHRyan Hall
There's a, there's, there's act- there's factual components I have no doubt, but we struggle sometimes to... Like, I guess, what I like about fiction is that you can tell me a story, it's all about people. I mean, every now there's more and less believable things. Um, and I think Dune would be an unbelievably well-written, in my opinion, for what it you know, what do I know but I really like Dune, I'll say that, um, well-written example of, you know, human beings interacting with one another. The political component to that, the emotional, the intellectual, um, the relationship components to all of that. And, uh, I, I think that Dune is neat because it's a sci-fi novel but only in the, only in the loosest sense. It's, it's really a story about religion, about group dynamics, about human potential, about, um, belief, learning, politics, governance, ecology. It's, uh, the, the best stories remind me of history. The same way history hopefully is not just a, a list of facts that I try to be able to recall or, or factoids that I try to recall, but a story that I can understand and, and see how, how the threads of time kind of came together and created certain things. And a lot of times like we say, like, "Ah, how the heck is what's going on right now or 100 years from now or 100 years in the past happen?" And you can look back far enough if we had accurate knowledge, if we had that like, that hypothetical perfect pool shot, you know, at the beginning of time, we would see an unbroken chain of events that led us to where we are, and, and where we are will potentially lead us to where we're going which is again, why hindsight's helpful. But I think it's neat like, I guess I really enjoy for instance a book like Dune and they're actually making a movie out of it which I'm, I'm skeptical of to be honest 'cause it's, it's gonna be difficult to, to bring that to the screen for a variety of reasons. But one of those-
- LFLex Fridman
Yeah, there's at least 100 questions. Ask Ryan what he thinks about the new Dune movie.
- RHRyan Hall
I am not enough of an authority-
- LFLex Fridman
(laughs)
- RHRyan Hall
... to have any sort of decent opinion. But I guess what I would say is so much of it goes on in the character's mind, like how much of any of our day is, is any lived experience as it were, is internal. Uh, the majority. How many times are people walking around and you know, they can, you could, they're like, "Hey, what do you see right now?" I'm like, "Oh, oh well, I see this picture, I see a wall. Hey, there's Lex." But really what was, what I was paying attention to was what was going on inside of my head for a moment and almost the rest of the world tuned out and kind of dimmed. And, uh, I guess, um, that, I think that's gonna be a struggle to, to anytime you want to bring that type of a, a written story to, to a, a visual medium, I think it's going to be more difficult. But it'll, it'll be interesting. It's definitely my, one of my favorite stories and it's been, it's, it's honestly helped me become better at life, in my opinion, better at the martial arts. And I think the, the writer, I think Frank Herbert was absolutely brilliant whether those were all his ideas which in reality none of us or all of our good ideas aren't ours. We're a combination, maybe you came up with something or you're a curator of other good ideas and some things you borrowed from somewhere without even realizing it. But, uh, I think the, the way the messages and the themes and the ideas that were conveyed particularly in the original novel are just absolutely brilliant.
- 44:50 – 51:17
Essence of jiu jitsu
- RHRyan Hall
- LFLex Fridman
Uh, let's go to jujitsu, if it's okay. (laughs) Uh, so the audience of this podcast may not know much about jujitsu or they do because it's really part of the culture now-
- RHRyan Hall
Yeah.
- LFLex Fridman
... but they don't really know much. They see that so many people have fallen in love with it, have been transformed through it, but they don't know much about, like, what is this thing? Is there a way you could sort of try to explain the what is jujitsu was the essence of this martial art that's captured the minds and hearts of so many people in the world?
- RHRyan Hall
Uh, I think that jujitsu is, is a philosophy that's expressed physically and that it's the kind of development of the mental capacity and physical capacity working in, in unison to, uh, move efficiently and almost flowingly, unresistently, um, with, with a given situation, with a, with a physically resisting opponent. Um, learning how to generate force on your own and how to steal force from the floor, how to steal force from the other person, and move in concert with it as opposed to clash against. Which if you watch two untrained people fight, it's almost entirely a clash. It's a run away and clash, a run away and clash. Um, if you watch w- jujitsu done well, it's, it, it looks like water moving around a solid structure. And, and I think that that is expressed physically and I think that all of the things that anyone has really been able to do very, very well i- in jujitsu end up kind of exemplifying that. But I think that that's true of martial arts in general. I think that a lot of times, like, the clashing that we see going on, um, and working well is just the fact that, you know, you get very, very physically powerful people every now and then that are able to get away with this. But I don't think that that's ... And that's, that's fantastic 'cause ultimately, it's a results-driven thing. But I think that the essence of the martial arts is learning how to make more out of less and how to move with and be yielding, you know, almost like real life Aikido. And, uh ...
- LFLex Fridman
So, you think of martial arts, uh, jujitsu as, uh, like water or flowing, so Aikido, so moving around the, the force. As opposed to sort of maybe the wrestling mindset is finding a leverage where you can apply an exceptional amount of force. So, like, so like maximizing the application of force?
- RHRyan Hall
I guess, maybe that's a better way to, I'd like to marry the two ideas, you know, because I think you flow until the point at which you are the greater force at which point in time you can apply. But, uh, if you look at the best wrestlers, and when I say best, I don't necessarily mean most successful. Although, of course, most successful are, are always very, very good. Um, throughout the course of history in boxing, in wrestling, in judo, um, they're, they're magical. They, they disappear and reappear. It's like fighting a ghost that, that is, like, incorporeal when you wanna find it. But then, when you don't want it to find it, when you don't wanna find it, it finds you. And, uh, I, I think that we see that in the, like, the Buvaisar Saities of wrestling. Um, and, you know, I guess you, you could look at a Floyd Mayweather or Willy Pep or, uh, you know, Pernell Whitaker in boxing, um, as, as brilliant examples of disappearing and reappearing and when you're strong, it's almost like guerrilla warfare. When you're strong, I'm nowhere to be found. When you're weak, you can't get rid of me. And I, I think that's what we're looking for.
- LFLex Fridman
Yeah. The Setoa brothers are in- incredible at that. They just, they, they look like, uh, skinny Starbucks baristas. And, uh, they just manhandle everybody, like, effor- effortlessly.
- RHRyan Hall
Yeah.
- LFLex Fridman
They look like they just kind of woke up-
- RHRyan Hall
Yeah.
- LFLex Fridman
... rolled out of bed, go fighting for, like, the, the, the gold medal at the Olympics and just effortlessly throw, uh, like there's a match against, I guess, Yoel Romero? Yeah, so like, you, you know, if, if you look at, like, who is the guy who's, like, intimidating in this case, uh, and terrifying looking, it's, uh, it's, it's Yoel Romero, just like...... a, a physical specimen, obviously like a super accomplished wrestler. I think this is for the gold medal, yeah, in 2000...
- RHRyan Hall
In 2000, yeah.
- LFLex Fridman
Yeah, Sydney. And then there-
- RHRyan Hall
This is the year you all took silver.
- LFLex Fridman
And what you s- like just to sh- to show you like there's a inside trip, effortless. Oh, ouchie, and he, he does it again.
- RHRyan Hall
Yep.
- LFLex Fridman
You know, it's a really creative kind of wrestling where-
- RHRyan Hall
It's organic.
- LFLex Fridman
Yeah, you're throwing all these kinds of things. There's, there's a mix of judo, a mix of like weird kind of moves. It's not like as funky as, uh, Ben Askren. It's, it's just like legitimate, basic-
- RHRyan Hall
Well, it's not funky for funky's sake, and I'm not, I'm not poking-
- LFLex Fridman
Right.
- RHRyan Hall
... Ben Askren to imply that, that, that's what he's doing, but it's like it, it's funny. It's like a lot of times it's almost like, uh, Musashi talked a lot about that, you know, that the only goal of combat is to win, is the, the outcome is, it's outcome driven versus like flourishing, you know, cool looking movements. It's like unless that had a, a utilitarian purpose, like what are you, what are you wasting your time with that?
- LFLex Fridman
Yeah.
- RHRyan Hall
Both in the fight and also, you know, in, in practice. But, but as you mentioned, it's almost like it looks like judo, it looks like wrestling, it looks like jujitsu. It's almost like I guess re- that reminds me all of the martial arts is, again, deeply tribal as well. Like, I want to learn Lex Fridman martial arts, and then I want to learn another, you know, th- I guess transcendent person's martial arts. And it just happened to be the set of movements that you tended to do most of the time thanks to your body type and your opposition and whatnot. But then I try to codify that and force those to work as opposed to going I want to understand how the body works in concert and in, in congress with something else and other forces and move appropriately, and that's why it's like it always struck me that the Saito brothers are great examples of just moving like water. But they, and to, to use Bruce Lee, which is a little trite, but again, he's brilliant, it's like water can flow, or water can crash. And they would crash when they needed to crash, and they would flow when they needed to flow. But they would flow for the purpose of dissipating and then crash when they would win. And at the right moment, then go back to flowing the second that the other person found them, and it's just, it's beautiful to watch. It's artistic. And I think that that great expression of anything physical is ultimately studied as a science, but expressed as an art. And I think that that's something that gets lost in jujitsu a lot of times when it gets a little bit, a little nerdy. Like, do this, hand here, hand here, like it's like the more details I have, the better, when in reality, that's just not in, not in my experience how it's done.
- 51:17 – 1:01:12
Jiu jitsu is a language
- LFLex Fridman
Might be a fun exercise of saying like, "What are the main positions and submissions in the art of jujitsu?" And it d- you don't have to be complete, that's a ridiculously ... I, I apologize for putting you on the spot like this-
- RHRyan Hall
No, no, no.
- LFLex Fridman
... but it might be a nice exercise to think through it.
- RHRyan Hall
Sure. I mean, I would just say that there, there, you have your arms bend in various ways. You have key lock, Americana, straight arm locks, kimura, omoplata. Omoplata is a kimura. Kimura's an omoplata. It's just executed-
- LFLex Fridman
That's submissions, so like-
- RHRyan Hall
Submissions, yes, but also-
- LFLex Fridman
... breaking off your arm in-
- RHRyan Hall
Right.
- LFLex Fridman
... all kinds of ways.
- RHRyan Hall
But ultimately, eh, the question is let's say you were a terminator, like a robot that I, which of course you are, uh-
- LFLex Fridman
Go on. (laughs)
- RHRyan Hall
Uh, zed, go on. (laughs) It's like all right, so we're-
- LFLex Fridman
(laughs)
- RHRyan Hall
... we're being completely literal.
- LFLex Fridman
Yeah. (laughs)
- RHRyan Hall
Uh, but, uh, and I, and I couldn't harm you with any of these things. Would I still use these positions? The answer is yes. They, they create leverage. They create control. They create shapes that I can affect and that can affect me, and that can be affected through other forces than other objects or structures like the ground or the wall. I really enjoy mixed martial arts because there's another component rather than just me and you and the floor. There's me, you, the floor, and the wall. And it's another player in the game that doesn't exist, uh, in a grappling context with an, uh, in a non-enclosed, you know, I guess area of combat. But, um, you can strangle me or choke me, um, what do you call it, uh, without my arms being involved, or you can use one of my shoulders to pin one side of my con- one carotid artery off and you can enclose the other. You can turn my knee in the exact same ways that you can turn my arm, straight, this way, and that way. You can add a rotation to that, or it can be directly linear against the joint. So, I guess what I would say is the more that I've been able to understand jujitsu, the more that I've been a- it's, it's given me an, uh, a look into how we learn language where rather than learning five bazillion adjectives, I go, I understand what an adjective is, and of course, we were all read into some degree of a vocabulary. I understand what an adverb does, and I understand what an adverb is. I know what a noun is. I know what the component parts of a sentence are. I know what, uh, you know, I guess a clause, a contraction, any of these things, and it allows you to be, um, interesting and artistic with your language to the extent that you can. But I can't ... Like I can speak a degree of Spanish, but I'm not even slightly artistic in Spanish. I would be something, (laughs) I'd be, I speak like a, like a child with a head injury. And anyway, um, the, uh-
- LFLex Fridman
But your basic understanding of the English language allows you to then be a student of Spanish.
- RHRyan Hall
100%, but I'm limited by my experience. I'm limited by my lo- understanding of techniques, and I'm limited unders- by my understanding, almost like let's say techniques are like, these are like vocabulary. Um, so even if I kind of, sort of grasp the sentence structure and the thought process and the thought patterns of, of Spanish, which it's interesting because just even the, the orientation and the organization of a language, and I've thought about this a great deal. Um, you know, the way that I perceive the world is affected deeply by the language that I learn, d- you know, the ... Again, if I learned, I have no idea how the Chinese language structures, but I can only imagine that it would be, that it would affect, it's like a different lens. We're all looking at the same thing, but I have, I have a different set of sunglasses on than you do. Um, and, uh, that's, that's very, very interesting. I'll use the Quran as an example. You know, apparently it's, it's unbelievably poetic in, in Arabic. It's still neat and, and was interesting reading in English, but I'm told by people that I trust that it, it just one, doesn't bear a resemblance to the other, and I think that's a very interesting thing that you may be able to say the same thing, but in a, in a more, in, in I guess in a different way, in a more artistic way that, that may not translate on a one-for-one kind of fidelity. But, um, the more that we're able to understand about how the body works, the more examples of the body working this way, the body working that way, the body working that way, the more that I'm able to eventually become an artist. But it has to be studied as a science first, and it does start with technique collection, vocabulary collection, the same way we learn in school where you remember how to say quickly...... 17 different ways and let's say I speak Spanish, I'm only, I, I only know three. So, you might use quickly, you might use an adjective like quickly in Spanish, but use one of the f- many, many options to describe that that I don't understand and now I sit there and go like, "Wait, what?" Uh, I can't be artistic. I can't be as organic with the languages I like. So, I believe that jiu-jitsu a lot of times starts with the acquisition of a lot of, "Hey, do this, this, this drill, this technique. Here's an Americana, Americana to an arm lock, arm lock to a triangle." Um, but the problem with that is oftentimes we get stuck in that phase, um, and I, people eventually become move collectors or sequence collectors and I noticed this when I'm trying to do DVD, or I guess like an instructional series now, or even teaching a class, I, I don't believe in that form of learning anymore. Um, not that it's not valuable, but I, I don't believe, like I don't understand jiu-jitsu on that level anymore. So, what I'm trying to do is get across the basic ideas to people and say, "Hey, you need to fill in the gaps with going to class all the time. You need to go, hey, learn this move, learn that technique, learn that technique." Because otherwise, I'm basically just throwing at you, like, 75 different words that you could use, but that hasn't really taught you how to, how to speak a language. Whereas if you give me the language structure, you can fill in these pieces on your own and then eventually speak organically in lex form, which will be ultimately unique to you because otherwise you'd just end up being like a weird facsimile of whatever it is that I'm doing for mostly the worst I'd say. (laughs) But, uh-
- LFLex Fridman
Yeah, that's what peop- I mean, people comment that like, "Is this..." especially people who hav- haven't listened to me before, uh, "Is this guy drunk or high? Does he, does, does MIT really allow slow people to, uh," (laughs) to be, "Like what's w-"
- RHRyan Hall
Quotas. (laughs) Like-
- LFLex Fridman
(laughs) Quotas, yeah. Like, "What's, what's wrong with him? Is he getting sleep? Are you okay? Does he need help?" So that, that's similar with my jiu-jitsu is like, does, is this guy, is this guy really... whatever rank I was throughout, I, I remember just like, "Is this guy really this rank?" I just have a very, kinda certain way of sitting and being slow and lazy-looking that there was ultimately the language that I had to discover and it was, uh, it was, yeah, it was a very liberating moment, I think, of probably a few years of getting my ass kicked, especially with open guard and butterfly to where you really allow yourself to take in the entirety of the language and realize that, um, that I'm not, I'm diff- I'm a unique, I, I'm, I'm unique and like, I have a very, um, I have a language, I have a set of techniques, a way I move my body that needs t- that I'm the one to discover. Like, it's, you can only, you can learn specific techniques and so on, but you really have to understand your own body. And that's the beautiful thing about jiu-jitsu, like you said, is like, the, the connection about your philosophy, your view of the world with the physical and like connecting those two things. How you perceive the world, how you interpret ideas of the world about exhaustion, about force, about effortlessness, like what it really means to relax, all these kinds of loose concepts, and then actually teach your body to like, do those things. And like, you know, and be able to apply force in spurts, be able to relax in spurts and like figure all that stuff out for my, for your- my, my individual body.
- RHRyan Hall
But it's a d- as you mentioned, that's, I couldn't agree with you more. It's a discovery process and no one can cheat that process, which is at the same time, it's almost like imagine I want to start writing books in second grade, unless I'm maybe I'm like, staggeringly brilliant, which I can only conceptualize someone being able to do that. But maybe a Mozart of the English language where you're out there doing it. But for most of us, we don't have enough knowledge, enough information, enough experience to be able to be, to express ourselves, so we have to basically input, repeat, um, which is important, but it's the process, as you say, of going through that, of getting your ass kicked of just like, "Well, that didn't work well. That didn't work. That felt right, but I don't know, nobody else does that. I guess I don't believe in that." Versus eventually going, "I don't know, I'll just try going my own way and see what happens and now I'll get yelled at and people won't like me and if it works, they'll say I got lucky and if it doesn't work, they'll say I was dumb." But, uh, which or maybe all is right. But basically, uh, you know, going through that iterative process that, that allows you to eventually find your self-expression and find your voice so that you, you fight the same way that you speak, the same way that you write, the same way that you think, in a way that, that is uniquely you that will also ultimately allow you to understand other people being uniquely them. Because y- even if you can only conceptualize, and I think about this a lot for society stuff where I go, "Well, this is how I feel about this." But am I objectively right? Maybe about a couple things, but that's a small box that I have to be very, very careful about what I think is objective, uh, versus what's not, and I have to be open to the possibility that all the things that I think are objectively correct may or may not be. And that should allow me to have some degree of compassion or consideration for other people, both in their martial arts journey and in their, in their journey, uh, you know, as, as people, as human beings, because I understand that they're on a, it, it's a, we're all on a path where it's all a pr- an- and again, an iterative process of, of eventual self-expression, but I think that's one of the things that we see having trouble when we see tribalism, which, I mean, racism is expression of that, political affiliation can be expression of that, uh, all of these things that can go in really uncomfortable directions. People are looking for, "Hey, where do I plant my feet over here? Where's, where's the, the thing that I know is right?" And that we can all agree on the following, and I, I think that we see that in martial arts. We're like, "Oh, I do this style. Well, I do that style. I do that style," but it's like, hey man, we're all just pushing forward in a certain direction here, trying to do our best, and I understand why you feel the way you do. I may have felt like that at one point too. But, uh, you know, we're, we're, I'm just trying to learn and understand versus I've already acquired enough knowledge. Let me cross my arms and start to, to look who's fucking up around here.
- LFLex Fridman
Yeah.
- RHRyan Hall
And, and I think that, uh, tha- that's an, it's an interesting trap that I think is a very human trap to fall into, but it definitely happens early on. It's something that's a joke in the jiu-jitsu world, right? Like, oh, the blue belt that, that knows everything. Well, initially it's like, "What? I know nothing and I at least think I know nothing." Then I learn a little bit and I think it's a lot bit, and then, you know, the more you learn, the more you go like, "I don't even know what I'm doing."
- LFLex Fridman
(laughs) Yeah, that's exactly
- 1:01:12 – 1:14:01
How to get started in jiu jitsu
- LFLex Fridman
right. We kinda talked about it a little bit but, uh, once again, a lot of people that listen to this have never been on the mat, have never tried jujitsu but are really curious about it. E- everybody at all positions, like, uh, I think Elon Musk's kids are now doing jujitsu.
- RHRyan Hall
Wow.
- LFLex Fridman
Andrew Yang is. Like, they're all... You know, the, the world is curious.
- RHRyan Hall
Wow.
- LFLex Fridman
It's a, it's a nice... It seems to be a nice methodology by which to humble your ego, which to grow intellectually and physically. So, people are curious about it, so the natural question is, if they're curious about it, how would you recommend they get started? Maybe like, what do you recommend the first day, week, month, year, first couple of years look like? Like, how do you ease into it and make sure that it's a positive experience and you progress in the most optimal and positive way?
- RHRyan Hall
The first thing you can do is, is simply ask yourself why, why you want to be involved. You know, I remember the first day that I walked into Ronin Athletics in, uh, in New York City to train under, um, my godfather, my son now, Christian Montes. Um, and I didn't know what I was getting myself into. I, I'd played baseball through high school and I want- I was at Manhattan College, um, in the Bronx, and I wanted to go and learn martial arts because it was always something that was interesting to me, but it was never something that, that was, I, that I knew was accessible and it definitely wasn't really around in, in Northern Virginia where I grew up. Whereas then you stick yourself in, in Manhattan and there's stuff everywhere. So, anyway, I guess I didn't know what to expect. Um, I didn't know if I was gonna get beat up, if people were gonna be nice, if people were not gonna be nice. Um, but what I began with was I think expectation management, and I think that that's something that, uh, I would... That would be the first thing that I would start, is almost imagining what is it that I'm getting myself into? Because I love the martial arts with, with... Martial arts has given me everything in life and I- I'm so thankful. I wouldn't be sitting here, um, with- without, without that, that experience, that journey. Uh, the people that I've met, the places that I've gone, I could never ever have ever imagined. Um, and I'm just unbelievably thankful for that. But I think that the thing that, um, that helped me most of all was starting with go- you know, my, my mom said something to me one time and she said, uh, you know, "There's two types of people in various situations. There's why and there's why not." And, you know, it's, it's understandable to have questions, concerns, things like that, um, but, uh, and maybe sometimes it's a little bit easier when you're, when you're younger to just trust people or just say, "I don't know." You know? Um, but, uh, we go, "Hey, you wanna climb that rock?" I'm like, "Yeah, why not? Let's go." "Hey, you wanna jump in that river?" "Yeah, why not? Sure." Versus if I have to reason my way into everything, I, if I have to be talked into everything, a lot of times I'll talk myself out of it, and I think that a lot of times this is the thinker's disease. Um, you wanna figure out what's gonna happen and what you should expect to have happen before you get involved versus going, using the old Bruce Lee saying, again, it's like no amount of thinking or training on the, on the side of the river will teach you how to swim. You have to jump in. And there are risks associated with that and so, uh, I guess, uh, psychological are usually the biggest ones, that's the biggest hurdle, and physical. Um, but the biggest thing that I guess I would suggest to anyone that say, "Well, why do you want to do this?" You're like, "Well, I wanna challenge myself. I wanna learn. I would like to learn to fight. I want to learn to fight so that I could protect myself and if, and if anything else, other people, if only when in arm's reach." Um, I, I perceived that if I had some small degree of power, um, I generally wouldn't use it, which is why I was like, "Yeah, I'll give it a try. I'll try to be reasonable and, and hopefully if I make a mistake I'll apologize to people." But basically, uh, I said, "Yeah, I'd like to have that." And I wanna, I know this is gonna be challenging and we'll see what happens. And that means that getting beat up, and I didn't get like hurt, but getting roughed up, getting my arm bent this way or that way, getting choked, I was like, "Well this is all supposed to happen. That's no big deal." It would be like going and joining the army during peacetime and then going, "Oh, I'm just doing this for a college education." You know, like, "Okay, that's cool man." And then all of a sudden war breaks out and they wanna send me somewhere and I'm like, "Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. I didn't sign up for that gig." Actually, actually you did (laughs) whether you realize it or not. You may not have thought that you did, but you did. So, getting your mind right and, and just going, "What are my expectations for this activity? What is it that I'm looking to do?" And of course, you know, you're, you're going into a gym, you're going into a place that you don't know people, or you probably don't know people, and you don't know the coach. And even if you do want a, "Hey, how you doing? Shake your hand." type of level. You know, 95% of my students don't know me, not really. You know, I try to be polite and not annoy them too much but they don't know me and I don't know them. Um, I understand if they don't trust me. I wouldn't trust, trust me either if I were them. But at the same time, someone has to take that leap. And one of the things that I've noticed, um, as a martial arts instructor that's the biggest struggle, uh, with dealing with adults, which is why a lot of people like to teach kids is 'cause kids don't ask, don't argue.
- LFLex Fridman
Mm-hmm.
- RHRyan Hall
Now, that also means there's, there's all sorts of pitfalls with that sort of thing and that can be an issue. But, you know, I guess a lot of times people get to a point in their life, you know, in their 20s, early 30s where, now I, I'm a, I'm a manager now. I know what I'm doing.
- LFLex Fridman
Yeah.
- RHRyan Hall
No one talks to me like that.
- LFLex Fridman
Yeah.
- RHRyan Hall
Versus like, hey, man. You go join boot camp. I don't care if you are Elon Musk.
- LFLex Fridman
Yeah.
- RHRyan Hall
They're gonna tell you to shut up and do push-ups.
- LFLex Fridman
Yeah, exactly.
- RHRyan Hall
And that's what's great about it.
- LFLex Fridman
Yeah.
- RHRyan Hall
Um, so y- you are taking a leap of faith into a world that you're gonna be a tiny fish and you gotta hope that the people, um, who are, who are guiding you in that, in that journey, are gonna have... I can't, can't say even say your best interest at heart because they don't even know you, but they'll, they'll try to do no harm and they'll try to help you in the way that they would understand. And I guess that's, for instance, that's what I would try to do with anyone that, that comes into my gym. I would try to help them in the way that I understand they need, um, as best I can and as safe and reasonable a way as possible. But sometimes in a way that's gonna make them uncomfortable, particularly if, if physical combat and, and it's not something that they've done before. Um, if they've... A lot of people go in without even having played, you know, contact sports, and so that can be a big jump and you have to understand if, if that's where you're starting from, no worries, but you're gonna have to kind of work your way to it and it's gonna be uncomfortable and, and it'll... And that's okay. It's part of the process and you're gonna have some bumps and bruises and you're not gonna wanna roll with that guy in the corner 'cause that, that person's rough and they beat you up and like-
- LFLex Fridman
Yeah.
- RHRyan Hall
... okay, but is this a big hurt or is it a little hurt? If it's a big hurt, okay. If it's a little hurt-... need- need you to center up a little bit.
- LFLex Fridman
Exactly. Yeah. It's such an interesting balance because to- to find... Uh, I think one of the most important things as in anything, uh, I think, in life, is the selection of the people arou- that you put around you. I mean, that's true with, uh, like getting married. That's true with, uh, like if you go to... If people ask me, like graduate students, like your PhD advisor can, um, can be the difference... It's- it's everything. It's like you spend five years with somebody, they're going to basically define the... More impact on you than anybody you marry, anybody you hang out with. There's a huge impact. And the same with the- the coach selection which is like the school selection is, it's going to be really important about in terms of like who you select will, uh, define how happy, like the trajectory of your growth and how happy you are with the entirety of the experience. And yet, like the- the- the flip side of that is if, especially if you have an ego, especially if you are the manager that needs to let go of some stuff, you're gonna feel like shit with the good... with the best kind of coach. That's the... That's what you need.
- RHRyan Hall
Right.
- LFLex Fridman
But there's an ni- there's a weird balance there to find. Like, uh, I mean like, and everybody needs a different thing. Like, I'm much more, uh, um, I enjoy being sort of like... It sounds weird, but like, I am, you know, from the wrestling background, I enjoy feeling like crap in a sense. Like, the coach, like be- getting beat up, I don't actually enjoy it. It's not like some masochistic thing or whatever. It- it's like-
- RHRyan Hall
Y'all know what Jackson went through.
- LFLex Fridman
(laughs) It's the growth. Like, I like the anxiety. I like, uh, feeling, uh, like- like shit when I go home, like emotionally, physically. It's a gr- it like... it's growth.
- RHRyan Hall
It's a sign of growth, right? Like if you're not-
- LFLex Fridman
Sign.
- RHRyan Hall
... having to feel those things, you're probably in your comfort zone, which is fine, but that's not your growth zone, right?
- LFLex Fridman
And everybody has a different threshold for that.
- RHRyan Hall
Right.
Episode duration: 3:48:13
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