Ryan Hall: Solving Martial Arts from First Principles | Lex Fridman Podcast #169

1. 0:00 – 1:17

   Introduction

   1. LFLex Fridman0:00

      The following is a conversation with Ryan Hall, his second time on the podcast. He's one of the most innovative scholars of martial arts in the modern era. Quick mention of our sponsors, Indeed hiring website, Audible audiobooks, ExpressVPN, and LMNT electrolyte drink. Click the sponsor links to get a discount and to support this podcast. As a side note, let me say that I've gotten a chance to train with Ryan recently and to both discuss and try out on the mat his ideas about grappling and fighting. What struck me is his unapologetic drive to solve martial arts. It reminds me of the ambitious vision and effort of Google's DeepMind to solve intelligence. In Ryan's case, this isn't some out there martial arts guru talk. This is a style of thinking about the game of human chess, of seeking to define the rules, and to engineer ways from first principles of escaping the constraints of those rules. This style of thinking is rare, but is ultimately the one that leads to the discovery of new revolutionary ideas. If you enjoy this podcast, subscribe to it anywhere or connect with me at Lex Fridman. And now here's my conversation with Ryan Hall.

2. 1:17 – 8:59

   First principles approach to martial arts

   1. LFLex Fridman1:18

      You're known as a systems thinker in martial arts, but you also, I think, are willing to think outside the rules of the game, outside of the system. When you're thinking about strategies of how to, you know, solve the problem, particular problem of an opponent, whether that's jujitsu or in mixed martial arts, what's your process for doing that, for figuring out that puzzle?

   2. RHRyan Hall1:43

      I would say, I don't know if I have a specific like A to B to C process for that sort of thing. Um, I try to do my best to, uh, r- appreciate that I think a lot of the thinking, um, or e- maybe not all the thinking, but a lot of great thinking on conflict, on battle, on war, on martial arts has been done already. Um, not that we don't have to do any sort of, uh, background investigation or reassessing of these ideas or axioms that have come down through things like The Book of Five Rings or The Art of War or, you know, e- like von Clausewitz, even anything like that really, but is, uh, eh, we're trying to understand the, the lessons of the past that I think oftentimes we, we don't take with us, um, problem solve. And we pay lip service to them, like, "Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, uh, you know, uh, a victorious fighter, uh, the great fighter, uh, you know, uh, he knows victory is there then he, then he, then he seeks battle. Everyone else is looking for victory in battle. Yeah, moving on and that's why I'm gonna double jab and throw my left hand." And, uh, I think a lot of times our actions don't reflect our stated belief structure, and I think that oftentimes you can tell what I believe really or what my fundamental operating system is based on my actions, whether I'm aware... I have an operating system internally whether I'm aware of it or not, or certainly whether I'm fully aware of it. So I guess, uh, when it comes to strategy I, I try to think about how things interact, and you mentioned systems thinking and I, and I try to do my best to understand how systems exist, but I think that systems have a fundamental strength and a fundamental weakness. They work how they work and that's great, um, but they're readable. So if you are aware, if I am operating on a system, uh, of which you're, you're not really read into then I, I think oftentimes I can seem like y- s- shockingly effective, particularly if my system preys on certain weaknesses, uh, that, that maybe you are, uh, you're given to. But what happens when you've read the same books that I have? I, I think that a lot of times that makes me deeply predictable. I think about systems in jujitsu, you know, and, uh, a lot of times people think that they're doing jujitsu when in reality they are doing an expression of it. Let's say I'll use... There's the Marcelo Garcia system, there is the, uh, Renzo Gracie current, Renzo Gracie system, there's the old Gracie Barra one, there's, uh, you know, the Gracie Academy, classic Gracie Jujitsu, there's the Art of Jujitsu, um, you know, kind of Atos approach and, you know, there's some crossover between a lot of these. But, uh, oftentimes I think, um, you know, when it comes to understanding how I'm making decisions and how my opponent is making decisions, I have to appreciate whether or not I'm an end user of something and I'll use my, my phone as an example. Um, I was thinking of this the other day, and as an end user of my phone, I can't... I have no idea what it does. You know, like Edward Snowden comes up and goes, "Hey guys, you realize your phones are listening to you?" I'm like, "Really? What?"

   3. LFLex Fridman4:32

      Yeah.

   4. RHRyan Hall4:33

      "All right. I believe you." And then, of course, that, that comes out but uh, to what extent? I have no idea. Um, what is my phone capable of? I have no idea. I can mess with the font though. I really like blue screens, not purple screens. So like as an end user, I can change some of the bells and whistles that have nothing to do with the underlying source code of it all or how it functions. The same way in my car, I'm an end user of my car. If I do this with the, uh, steering wheel it goes, if I push on the gas it goes. Um, if I... Yeah, I know how to fix it when it's out of gas, I know how to fix it when it's out of oil, and I h- and I know how to fix it, you know, when, uh, when a flat tire comes. But short of that or actually beyond that, I have nothing. So I think that oftentimes, um, you know, I've been around in jujitsu long enough to encounter like a new wave of, of like good grapplers.

   5. LFLex Fridman5:14

      Mm-hmm.

   6. RHRyan Hall5:14

      And it's very, very interesting sometimes how they're running systems they don't realize they're running. Like, I'm like, oh yeah, I, I trained at Marcelo Garcia's academy for a long time, you know, and a big fan of Marcelo's. I was a student there. Uh, encountered a lot of the, the Atos style jujitsu a number of years ago. Uh, been, you know, a very, very, you know, deep into foot locking and leg attacks and whatnot for a long, long time. I understand your system better than you do or I may, and let's say you understand my system better than I do, that would be a huge issue. That was something that I encountered a long time ago trying to come up in jujitsu where I was trying to utilize systems that were created by, let's say, Rafa Mendes or someone else and I'm basically trying to do what you're doing, I'm just not doing as good of a version of it. So not only am I not doing it well but I'm entirely predictable, and I think that that can be a big issue. So to come back, I think of systems a lot of times now in terms of, you know, particularly like end user type of systems like, uh, an iPhone is a really, really fast way for me to be able to do all sorts of things.

   7. LFLex Fridman6:13

      Mm-hmm.

   8. RHRyan Hall6:14

      ... if you were to take it from me, I- I couldn't recreate any of that.

   9. LFLex Fridman6:17

      So you wanna be more the NSA and less the end user?

   10. RHRyan Hall6:20

       Exactly, exactly. That way, that way I'm listening to you and you don't know-

   11. LFLex Fridman6:22

       You wanna be the NSA of combat.

   12. RHRyan Hall6:24

       That's right. We're watching you pee.

   13. LFLex Fridman6:25

       (laughs)

   14. RHRyan Hall6:25

       But basically (laughs) , you know, it's, uh, I- I guess what I would, what I would come back and say is, uh, if you understand how things interact on a fundamental level and what type of games exist and what type of interactions exist, then you can transcend a lot of the, uh, the systems. You... It's almost like a cook versus... I can make certain things in the kitchen. I can... But I am not a chef. You could give me a bunch of ingredients and I could probably cook, not well, but a couple of different things. But, uh, a master chef, you know, would be aware of the implications of all of the things that they're doing, you know, extra time in the oven, less time in the oven, putting this, you know, flavoring or spice in, you know, what you're doing with various things. And also, they could make... They could turn all of these ingredients into Chinese food or they could turn all these ingredients into Italian food, and they could turn all these Italian food ingredients into chicken Parmesan or they could turn them into lasagna. But they're not limited to a specific thing because they have knowledge of how food interacts, how... What it does to create taste, what it does to create texture. So to come back, let's take rock, paper, scissors. Rock, paper, scissors is built on the idea of a couple of different things. Or actually, I'll tell you what. Can I... You... May I... May I ask you a question?

   15. LFLex Fridman7:30

       Yeah.

   16. RHRyan Hall7:31

       What's your favorite dinosaur? On the s- on three, we'll go. One, two, three.

   17. LFLex Fridman7:37

       T-Rex.

   18. RHRyan Hall7:37

       T-Rex. Oh, me too.

   19. NANarrator7:38

       (laughs)

   20. RHRyan Hall7:38

       Man, this is... We're gonna be best friends. So, uh, it's... Okay. Uh, if... So what's the first question when you say, "Hey, let's play rock, paper, scissors"? It's like, "Hey, is it rock, paper, scissors or rock, paper, scissors, shoot?" And you're like, "Rock, paper, scissors, shoot." And you're like, "Okay." Because if we go, "Rock, paper, scissors, shoot," and I'm like, "Oh, man, I- I got lucky and I won." Imagine I won 100 times in a row.

   21. LFLex Fridman8:00

       Yeah.

   22. RHRyan Hall8:00

       It'd be luck, it'd be luck, if- if I was honestly doing that. But now let's say for instance, I go on rock, paper, scissors and you go on shoot. Rock, paper, scissors, shoot.

   23. LFLex Fridman8:11

       Mm-hmm.

   24. RHRyan Hall8:11

       Here comes the rock, right?

   25. LFLex Fridman8:12

       Yeah.

   26. RHRyan Hall8:12

       If you lose, whose fault is it? It's yours. This is built on a parody thing where the- we... I don't get to pick second. If I get to pick second, it's like being able to investigate your background before going to meet you. And then I'm like, "Oh, hi. Oh, I too love the New Jersey, you know, the New Jersey Nets," which is a statement no one in their right mind would ever make when I was growing up. So anyway, you'd have-

   27. LFLex Fridman8:36

       (laughs)

   28. RHRyan Hall8:36

       ... to have personal knowledge of somebody. So anyway, to come back, let's... You're a... If- if you understand how games are structured, th- you can start to realize that there's huge gaps and huge holes in a lot of the- the thinking behind all of it, and if you can create the illusion of choice... I'll play one more, if you don't mind. This is one of my favorite ones. I do this in class all the time.

   29. LFLex Fridman8:57

       (laughs)

   30. RHRyan Hall8:57

       Uh, have you seen this before?
3. 8:59 – 12:32

   Illusion of choice

   1. LFLex Fridman8:59

   2. RHRyan Hall8:59

      Okay. Um, may I ask you some questions, please?

   3. LFLex Fridman9:01

      Sure.

   4. RHRyan Hall9:01

      Okay, fantastic.

   5. LFLex Fridman9:02

      I'm scared.

   6. RHRyan Hall9:03

      Oh, there's... Everybody wins, don't worry. (laughs) Um, all right.

   7. LFLex Fridman9:06

      (laughs)

   8. RHRyan Hall9:06

      So could you, could you please-

   9. LFLex Fridman9:07

      Yeah, I win.

   10. RHRyan Hall9:08

       ... uh, could you please pick three fingers and tell me what they are?

   11. LFLex Fridman9:12

       Uh-

   12. RHRyan Hall9:12

       What's-

   13. LFLex Fridman9:12

       Your thumb.

   14. RHRyan Hall9:13

       Okay.

   15. LFLex Fridman9:14

       Your, uh, pinky.

   16. RHRyan Hall9:15

       Okay.

   17. LFLex Fridman9:16

       And your middle finger.

   18. RHRyan Hall9:17

       Okay. So could you please pick, uh, two fingers?

   19. LFLex Fridman9:21

       Your middle finger and your pinky.

   20. RHRyan Hall9:24

       Okay. Could you please pick one finger?

   21. LFLex Fridman9:26

       Uh, I'll go (laughs) with middle finger.

   22. RHRyan Hall9:28

       Woo-hoo. Okay. Could you please pick one finger?

   23. LFLex Fridman9:31

       Uh, pinky.

   24. RHRyan Hall9:32

       Okay. Let's play again. Can you pick one finger, please?

   25. LFLex Fridman9:36

       (laughs) Uh, your middle finger. (laughs)

   26. RHRyan Hall9:41

       Okay. Can you pick one finger, please?

   27. LFLex Fridman9:43

       Your thumb. Yeah, your pinky.

   28. RHRyan Hall9:47

       Okay now, pick, uh, two more fingers, please.

   29. LFLex Fridman9:50

       Your, uh, middle finger and your, uh, ring finger.

   30. RHRyan Hall9:53

       Okay. Could you please pick one more finger?
4. 12:32 – 20:53

   Game theory

   1. LFLex Fridman12:32

      So I don't know if you know sort of the more mathematical discipline of game theory. There's something called mechanism design.

   2. RHRyan Hall12:38

      Hmm.

   3. LFLex Fridman12:39

      So game theory is this field where you model some kind of interaction between human beings, you could model grappling that way, you can, uh, model nuclear conflict between nations that way, and, uh, you set up a set of rules and incentives and then use math to predict, uh, what is like the outcome depending over time based on the interaction given those rules. Mechanism design is the design of games, so like the design of systems that are likely to lead to a certain outcome. And so what you're suggesting is you want to create wha- what, you want to discover systems whose decision tree all the possible things that could happen feel like there's choice being made, but ultimately one of the parties doesn't have any choice in what the actual final outcome is. Uh, you're making them feel like they're playing a game too, so it's not like you don't feel trapped. It's kinda like... (laughs)

   4. RHRyan Hall13:47

      Well, the best traps I don't, you don't look very threatening. So I'm like, "Oh, I'll walk over there." I guess, wouldn't that... And I guess that's kind of an interesting thing. If a lion st- when does a lion roar? It's an interesting thing when you watch like lions hunting, they don't r- roar when they hunt. They wanna, when they wanna move you back, they do stuff like that. When they actually want to come and get you, they're pretty slinky. It's like water cover, it's like furry water.

   5. LFLex Fridman14:11

      Yeah.

   6. RHRyan Hall14:12

      And, and I guess like when you keep that in mind, um, it, it's funny how like for us a hobby actually, you know, brilliant guy, like, uh, one of my MMA coaches and the head coach at TriStar, um, he brought this up one time, I thought it was really salient point. He said, "Let's say we have a million person bracket-"

   7. LFLex Fridman14:27

      Let's, yeah.

   8. RHRyan Hall14:27

      "... im- impossibly huge." Like Frank Dux winning the kumite level huge bracket. And he claimed to knock out like 250 consecutive people and you're like, "That is all of Hong Kong-"

   9. LFLex Fridman14:38

      (laughs) .

   10. RHRyan Hall14:38

       "... was in that thing and everyone kept their mouth shut."

   11. LFLex Fridman14:40

       Yeah.

   12. RHRyan Hall14:40

       But anyway, that's pretty cool. But, uh, to co- to come back (laughs) a little improbable but pretty cool. Um, so let's say for instance like, a, there's no cheating going on, no cheating going on and we're flipping coins, right? Someone is gonna have an unbroken string of victory through that bracket, which is pretty insane. How many, how many consecutive like toss-ups this person won?

   13. LFLex Fridman15:00

       Mm-hmm.

   14. RHRyan Hall15:01

       And then at the end of it all, imagine we, like aliens show up and we go, "Hey, they wanna flip a coin for whether or not Earth, e- whether or not Earth, uh, you know, gets to, gets to continue." They'd be like, "Oh! I'll do it. I'm good at this."

   15. LFLex Fridman15:16

       (laughs) Yeah.

   16. RHRyan Hall15:18

       That would be tempting as a person to, to do. You're like, "I'm a lucky guy." Well, you're like, are, are you sure? Maybe, I mean maybe effectively you are. We could argue that effectively you're incredibly lucky but basically, uh, is that an actual ability? Is that like a perk in a video game or is that just this thing that happened? So anyway, uh, how many times where someone... You could go through an entire career, in a particularly in a fight sport. Well, let's say you get 15 knockouts and 15 toss-up scenarios, 'cause you see that happening all the time in the fight game, a toss-up scenario. It's not like you're mounted on me and like, and, and that's not a toss-up scenario. Many, many, many, many, many striking scenarios, a lot of grappling ones, but tons of striking scenarios are dead toss-ups. And, uh, somebody wins by knockout, they win five times in a row, then they lose a couple times in a row and we go, "What happened?" You're like, "What do you mean what happened? They were always flipping the coin." And then they win five more and they go, "Ah, back on track." Can you imagine that you're flipping a coin, I'm like, "Heads, heads, heads, heads, tails, what? Tail- tails? Tails, heads again. Oh man, I'm back on it. I'm flipping good now."

   17. LFLex Fridman16:11

       Yeah.

   18. RHRyan Hall16:11

       That's basically what's going on I think the vast majority of the time and then hu- humanity's, you know, tendency to see a sign in almost anything, you know, starts to present itself and then we build a narrative in our mind to imp- to convince ourselves that we're in some sort of control when in reality I was in a marginal situation at best the whole time.

   19. LFLex Fridman16:30

       Yeah. Without having much control, without having a deep understanding of the system. The same story is told of the stock market, with many of the human, these distributed human systems, we start telling narratives and start seeing patterns without understanding actually the system that's generating these patterns.

   20. RHRyan Hall16:45

       So if we can see the system, that's incredibly valuable-

   21. LFLex Fridman16:47

       Yeah.

   22. RHRyan Hall16:47

       ... but then you go, "Well, what system is above all of the systems?" And I could see maybe physics, maybe so, like game theory explains these things, but like, I guess what are the, what aspects of the system can I, can I put my hands on that I can touch and understand?

   23. LFLex Fridman16:59

       Yeah.

   24. RHRyan Hall16:59

       And what am I, what am I missing? What, what, what's going on in the world all around me to continue to lean on, on Dune that I don't have, uh, (laughs) that I don't, you know, you talk to a blind person about, about the world, about sight, and talk to someone that doesn't have, everyone has got coronavirus now so no one can taste or smell. You're like, "This is delicious." Like, "Is it?"

   25. LFLex Fridman17:18

       Yeah.

   26. RHRyan Hall17:18

       So anyway, uh, you know, again, what, what senses am I missing or what understanding am I missing that's preventing me from seeing the dots connect in the world all around me? And I think sometimes if we, uh, o- oftentimes at least personally have screwed this up a lot, I'm so nose deep in the, in the trench of trying to understand what I'm doing that I can't take a step back and realize, you know, that I'm in a forest, not just headed, headbutting a tree. And I may be doing both, maybe both. Two things can be true at once. But, uh, so I would say when it comes to strategy, trying to understand that, but then also you go, "Well, okay, well how can... That sounds cool, but how can you actually do that?" And then I'd say that's a really good question because if imagine I say, "Man, I should fight like Stephen Thompson, I should fight like Wonderboy." You're like, "Good idea. Go do that." I'm like, " (sucks in breath) Ah, not the, not the guy." I would fight like Khabib Nurmagomedov if I could, you know, it seems to work. So anyway, uh, you go, "Well, what if I could develop... What if I could take my time developing skills so that when these strategies become apparent they u- are, they are executable to you?"

   27. LFLex Fridman18:19

       Mm-hmm.

   28. RHRyan Hall18:19

       You actually have the ability to like-... inner to again, to be the person in the arena, to be the person required. Whereas there's plenty of great ideas, like dunking a basketball is a fantastic idea.

   29. LFLex Fridman18:29

       (laughs)

   30. RHRyan Hall18:29

       Alas, for me unless there's a small trampoline nearby, I'm not the guy. But that doesn't make it any less good of an idea. I just don't, haven't developed the ability or, or I lack the ability. So anyway, I, I think a lot of times, at least when I watch people in fighting, I'll use an example. Um, we're so can, we're so concerned with trying to win early on rather than develop skills that I'm going like, "Well, what's the best way to fight with my current set of skills?" And usually the, the path forward is like the barbarian route. Like the, you put on the one ring, take the damage you need to take to hit that guy. And that was something I realized very early on in my MMA career was like I'm not that good at striking at that time. I'm not a world-class striker now, but I'm way better at striking than I'm given any credit for because it helps people sleep at night I think.
5. 20:53 – 25:09

   First fight

   1. LFLex Fridman20:53

      out.

   2. RHRyan Hall20:53

      I believe you. Thank you.

   3. LFLex Fridman20:54

      (laughs) So can you do a whirlwind overview of, uh, your career in MMA leading up to this point with the injuries and the undefeated record and then what's next?

   4. RHRyan Hall21:07

      Um.

   5. LFLex Fridman21:07

      Since we're on the topic.

   6. RHRyan Hall21:09

      Well, I, I did my first fight in a, as a blue belt and I'd been training for about a year and a half. I did nine, uh, jiu-jitsu tournaments in 10 weekends, or eight, maybe eight jiu-jitsu tournaments in 10 weekends prior to my first fight in, uh, April 2006. Um, I got punched in the face a whole bunch. I didn't realize it was a professional fight and found that out like the day beforehand. That was great. Thanks, Coach. Uh, it was in Atlantic City where, another place no one ever goes on purpose. So that wasn't great. I got into three, actually three car accidents in the proceeding 36 hours before the fight. I had my car totaled. Um, I wasn't driving for any of them. That was great. Uh, it was-

   7. LFLex Fridman21:47

      This is 2006?

   8. RHRyan Hall21:48

      It's 2006, yeah. And then I-

   9. LFLex Fridman21:49

      You were a blue belt?

   10. RHRyan Hall21:50

       Uh, yeah, yeah. I'd been training for about a year and a half.

   11. LFLex Fridman21:52

       So you're blue belt. You're getting... I mean, uh, if you haven't lived if you haven't gotten punched in the face in Atlantic City.

   12. RHRyan Hall21:57

       That's true. I mean, I've-

   13. LFLex Fridman21:59

       (laughs) So these are...

   14. RHRyan Hall22:00

       I would li- I would've loved to have it happen for different reasons.

   15. LFLex Fridman22:02

       Yeah.

   16. RHRyan Hall22:03

       But, uh, yeah. Well, what's funny is, you know, I, I remember, you know, getting punched in the face a bunch, trying to do inverted guard. I won one round, lost two rounds. Definitely lost the fight. Ended up-

   17. LFLex Fridman22:12

       So you went for inverted... Sorry to interrupt. You went for inverted guard. Like can you tell the story of that fight just real quick?

   18. RHRyan Hall22:16

       Oh, e- yeah, sure. It was three, three-minute rounds, which is not a professional fight length, although I don't know if professional fight length would've been any better. It's just more time to get punched.

   19. LFLex Fridman22:23

       (laughs)

   20. RHRyan Hall22:23

       Uh, but, uh, I found out partway through. I was like, I remember walking back to my corner in the first round. I'm like, "Yeah, this guy can't hurt me." And he's like, "Yeah." My, my corner was my friend Tom and then someone else. And then he's like, "Yeah, I would still encourage you to stop blocking so many punches with your face." I'm like, "That's a good idea, Tom. I appreciate that. I'm going to try that." Um, anyway, uh, I, I remember like I was not, you're not allowed to upkick. So I'm like, "Great." I was, I wa- I had no martial arts skills at, really at all. But if I had anything at all, it was jiu-jitsu. It was very, very little jiu-jitsu. Uh, but definitely no wrestling, definitely no striking. Uh, like I was basically a magnet for punches.

   21. LFLex Fridman22:55

       So that was your time, uh, you know, roughnecking out in Atlantic City...

   22. RHRyan Hall22:59

       That was-

   23. LFLex Fridman22:59

       ... as we all do once in a while. Can we fast-forward to when you're actually dominating the world (laughs) -

   24. RHRyan Hall23:03

       Oh, sure.

   25. LFLex Fridman23:04

       ... as a black belt? And then-

   26. RHRyan Hall23:05

       Well, actually it's funny 'cause I took the little bit of money that I, they were like, "Hey, we- we're paying." I'm like, "Really?" Okay, well I took that money-

   27. LFLex Fridman23:10

       Sounds like Bukowski stories with Ryan Hall. (laughs)

   28. RHRyan Hall23:12

       (laughs) Well, then I went t- I went to the casina- I went to whatever, like the Tropicana that was right there, the casino, 'cause that was a boardwalk hall. And I'm like, "You know what, man? This was, this has been a not great, not great evening. I'm gonna, uh, this is, I'm gonna win it back. It's gonna be great." F- f- 15 minutes later, they had all the money that I had from the fight was gone.

   29. LFLex Fridman23:27

       Yeah.

   30. RHRyan Hall23:27

       I just remember like walking out of the casino super pissed. And I, like I don't know what I was thinking. Like I'm not good at gambling. Why... This was not gonna make my night better.
6. 25:09 – 33:53

   Defense

   1. RHRyan Hall25:09

      shockingly good at Jeopardy. So anyway, years later met Firas Zahabi. Actually John Danaher, um, I met John Danaher and he put me in touch with Firas Zahabi. I started training at TriStar. You know, I immediately loved, uh, working with Firas and learning under Firas. Started training at TriStar and I did my first real professional MMA fight, um, as someone that actually does... had practiced a little bit prior, uh, in I think August 2012.

   2. LFLex Fridman25:30

      Mm.

   3. RHRyan Hall25:30

      Um, and, uh, that was against a guy, he was four and five at the time so, you know, had some experience. Um, good kind of like first go for me honestly and I won that fight by TKO and then it was a little bit of a time off and then I did another fight against a tough guy named Majid Hamo. He was five and two at the time. I think he was three-0 as an amateur. So he had a good, a good little bit of fighting experience. Um, won that one in the first round via rear naked choke and then, uh-

   4. LFLex Fridman25:54

      Right.

   5. RHRyan Hall25:54

      ... started to experience difficulty getting, getting fights at, at that point. Um, you know, I, I-

   6. LFLex Fridman25:59

      Were you continuously introduced as like the master of grappling, the submission?

   7. RHRyan Hall26:04

      At least that, that was my thing. I don't know if I was-

   8. LFLex Fridman26:06

      Is, is that was the source of the fear for people?

   9. RHRyan Hall26:08

      I, I think so because I mean I definitely wasn't much at striking at that point. You know, I definitely am lot... I like to think I'm pretty hard to hurt, although I try not to lean on that and I played baseball for like 16 years so I can hit things pretty hard. I just wasn't able to, uh... I, I recognized pretty early on that I had no idea how to actually hit things hard without becoming hittable myself. So I, I think that's kind of the big thing is a, a lot of times like almost we were mentioning, uh, before, if you try to go and get people too early, you can hit them if they're not that good, but you're going to get hit yourself. So you're making, you're basically making a wager or you're making a trade of your own life for the ability to hit them. When you watch guys like Israel Adesanya, Floyd Mayweather, Stephen Thompson, uh, Conor McGregor when he's fighting really well, it's not a trade. They're not, you're hitting them and they're hitting you. It's they're hitting you, but it takes years and years and years and years to be able to learn how to do that. Tan Le is another great example of that. You know, my closest training partner and one of my best friends and, uh, currently now, uh, one champion, uh, one championship in, uh, in Asia. The champion of the, uh, featherweight or I guess lightweight featherweight. Um, 155, uh, over there now and he recently defeated, uh, Martin Win in a really great fight and Tan knocked him out. Long time champion and Tan doesn't let you hit him. He doesn't let you touch him. I feel so fortunate to have met guys like Steven and Tan to go early on in career and go, "Holy moly, I can't even..." It's not even like, "Oh, he'll let me walk over and find you."

   10. LFLex Fridman27:32

       Mm-hmm.

   11. RHRyan Hall27:32

       It's like fighting a ghost that periodically shows up with a hammer and smokes you in the melon and then disappears into the ether again.

   12. LFLex Fridman27:38

       So the way to approach the fighting game is thinking how can I attack without being hit? So every-

   13. RHRyan Hall27:42

       Yeah.

   14. LFLex Fridman27:42

       ... every strategy, every idea you have about what you're going to do has to do with, uh, like that, uh, minimizing the, the-

   15. RHRyan Hall27:51

       The return.

   16. LFLex Fridman27:52

       ... returns. Yeah.

   17. RHRyan Hall27:52

       Abs- absolutely. I mean that's what all good fighting is done. All poor fighting if... And, you know, throughout the course of history most generals whether they saw, read or, you know, they, they did battles by attrition.

   18. LFLex Fridman28:01

       Yeah.

   19. RHRyan Hall28:01

       You know? It's like, "Yeah, man. I've got 150 guys, you've got 50." Like, "Yeah, if 60 of my guys die killing your 50, like that's great for me."

   20. LFLex Fridman28:07

       Yeah.

   21. RHRyan Hall28:08

       But, uh, that's not so great for the 60 guys that died.

   22. LFLex Fridman28:10

       Mm-hmm.

   23. RHRyan Hall28:10

       You know, I hope it's worth it. So when you realize that not only... You're not just Kobe Bryant and you're Phil Jackson too, you gotta do everything. You know, if, if you've got to run across the beach in Normandy, so be it. But that better be... You should have made sure we thought this through and there's like, "Hey, there's no way we can like walk around the side, huh?" Because oftentimes there, there is and I, I think a lot of times there's a lot of incentives in professional fighting to, for people who want to do that, and we come up with all sorts of, "Well, I'm trying to be exciting." Are you? Is that really what you came here to do? Because I came here to win. And I think that anyone that that's really successful came there to win and if it ends up being exciting, well that's fantastic. I hope that people enjoy watching something and that's great, but that's a qualitative assessment anyway. You know, you want to also be able to, you know, live the rest of your life. I think it's easy, you know, I'll use Meldrik Taylor. I'm a big boxing fan. Meldrick Taylor was an excellent fighter. Um, came this close, uh, to a world title and was stopped with like... He was in a fight that he was winning with seconds remaining. Literally seconds remaining and they probably could have just let it go and he would have been world champion. And it was brutal. If you ever watch Legendary Nights like, uh, HBO boxing show, it's, it's great. But, um, it's heartbreaking. It's absolutely heartbreaking. And also like the beating that he absorbed in that fight changed him for the rest of his life. And also, you know, don't think he'd never been hit before but it was one of those where you go it's, it's all fun and games until you can't remember your name at age 44 years old. And I didn't come here... What did, what did Patton say? "Nobody, nobody wins the war by dying for his country, you make the other poor bastard die for his."

   24. LFLex Fridman29:39

       Yeah.

   25. RHRyan Hall29:39

       And, uh, I think that that's kind of what we're shooting for and, you know, the lionization of absorbing damage and that not being a big deal, like you hear that all the time. So-and-so can take shots that would put a lesser fighter down. What does that even mean?

   26. LFLex Fridman29:54

       Yeah.

   27. RHRyan Hall29:55

       You know, like so make it this straight. Your ability to absorb damage is a part of you? I mean, I guess that... Don't get me wrong, that is an attribute that's nice to have if you, if you need it.

   28. LFLex Fridman30:03

       Yeah.

   29. RHRyan Hall30:03

       But there's plenty of people that actually have really poorest defense that are just very, very difficult to hurt for whatever reason.

   30. LFLex Fridman30:10

       That's a fascinating fighter's perspective on the thing. I mean, the, the story that is inspiring and I know it goes against the artistry of fighting is when you have taken the damage to still rise up and be able to defeat the opponent. So, it's, uh, but that, that's a flip side of a basically you failing to defend yourself properly, right?
7. 33:53 – 44:01

   Waiting for a fight

   1. LFLex Fridman33:53

      Catch me up to ... you went to three fights, I think, undefeated.

   2. RHRyan Hall33:58

      Yup.

   3. LFLex Fridman33:59

      BJ Penn, you, we talked about last time you defeated BJ Penn. That's a, that's a, I mean, that's an incredible a- a- accomplishment.

   4. RHRyan Hall34:06

      Thank you.

   5. LFLex Fridman34:07

      But you fought a lot of really tough guys. Um, when was your last fight? And then catch me up with the injuries.

   6. RHRyan Hall34:14

      Well-

   7. LFLex Fridman34:15

      A lot of people kept, more and more and more were unwilling to fight you.

   8. RHRyan Hall34:20

      Yeah, that's been, that's, that was why I was out for two years following the Gray Maynard fight between, uh, uh, the f- fighting Gray, um, and BJ and, you know, the Gray Maynard fight was actually one I'm really proud of because, um, Gray was very tough. He's very big, very strong, very experienced. I had only five fights at the time, um, and I didn't have a lot of skills. I don't get to fight Gray with what I have today. I had to fight Gray with what I had in December 2016, and that, I, it really took a lot of discipline, a lot of focus, a lot of challenge, you know, to stay the course, to do what I needed to do in that fight and to win in- in ultimately dominating fashion. Just not in the dominating obvious sense that you see when someone runs across and just does that to somebody.

   9. LFLex Fridman34:58

      Mm-hmm.

   10. RHRyan Hall34:58

       But that wasn't on the list for me at that time, you know? So, um, that was a, that was an interesting one, but the time away, again, was very frustrating. It was incredibly difficult for our r-

   11. LFLex Fridman35:07

       Before that fight or after?

   12. RHRyan Hall35:08

       Uh, after that fight. The, well, 'cause I, uh, m- I beat, uh, Artem Lobov in the final of the Ultimate Fighter and Artem is another guy that's tough, a lot of experience.

   13. LFLex Fridman35:16

       Yeah.

   14. RHRyan Hall35:16

       And, uh gets- gets, you know, he- he's- he's a funny guy and he said some things on the internet so, and he gets a lot of heat for that. But, uh, you know, he just knocked out three of my teammates. I'm like, he put a couple of people in a pretty rough shape at the end of that. So, he was doing well and that was a tough fight. Again, if I got to go back and fight that fight now, it would be not competitive at all. I mean, it wasn't competitive at that time, but it very, it was c- let me phrase it wasn't close, but it was competitive. Um-

   15. LFLex Fridman35:38

       So, you were improving and growing fast?

   16. RHRyan Hall35:40

       Yeah, and it was nice to have time away. I wish I'd had more time in the ring. But y- again, I'd only been doing MMA for three years at that time. Um-

   17. LFLex Fridman35:46

       So, the, uh, improvement from doing what, the Bitcoin mining, was over, uh, overriding the ring rust?

   18. RHRyan Hall35:55

       I think so. I don't really believe in ring rust, if I'm honest. You know, I- I can understand why, uh, you know, s- people could feel a certain way. But if anything, it's almost like you just kind of forget what competition is like and you realize, like, oh, you feel butterflies or something like that, and you go, "Oh my God, this is different," versus no, that's- that's your body getting ready to perform. It's okay. It's normal.

   19. LFLex Fridman36:11

       How do you not have ring rust?

   20. RHRyan Hall36:13

       I- I think I try to, well, I try to practice performing no matter what. Uh, you know, like whether it's singing karaoke, I'm not very good, but like anything-

   21. LFLex Fridman36:19

       Yeah.

   22. RHRyan Hall36:19

       ... you name it. Talking in front of people, like, uh, I-

   23. LFLex Fridman36:21

       You embrace the butterflies?

   24. RHRyan Hall36:23

       Um, yeah. And I- it's- it's almost like, uh, I remember for my last fight, I'm just staring at the wall and going like, "Huh. I guess I, I guess I'm gonna fight in a couple minutes."... that, hey, you, have you ever, I mean, of course we've all heard the phrase like, "You can never walk in the same river twice because even if you're the s- even if the river's the same, you're a different man." That's, uh, I think that's a really important thing to understand 'cause at various points in my m- martial arts career, I've thought, "Oh, man, how should I feel?" I remember when I used to do well in competition, I would feel, I would think these thoughts, "Listen to this song. Think, think about this." I would feel a certain way and then if you don't feel that way, I would start to b- become stressed because, uh, I, I was self-inflicted versus going, "You'll feel how you feel. Your job is to show up with what you have on the day. Do your absolute best." It's like, I will never quit. I can be sure of that. I didn't say I can't be beat. I, m- m- I can definitely be beat. I could have lost every single fight that I've ever had. But I control my effort and I control my attitude and that's, I will f- you know, I, I will do my very best to execute my game plan in the events not working. If I have to, I'll put my hands up and walk dead forward if I need to with somebody. Uh, you know, we hope that that's not where it goes, but, you know, y- like again that humanizing moment where you're shooting for, like, just the, the inner, like the inner, uh, you sacrifice the outer and y- all you have left is will and you hope it doesn't happen. But if it does, you'll be there. But I guess to come back, like the extra periods of time, um, in between fights I think was, uh, valuable because it was, it was deeply challenging. It was incredibly, it was, it was heartbreaking sometimes. If I'm honest, man. It's like I didn't wanna-

   25. LFLex Fridman37:48

       It's just waiting?

   26. RHRyan Hall37:49

       Oh, my god, dude. It's just-

   27. LFLex Fridman37:50

       What, is there politics involved? There's a, uh-

   28. RHRyan Hall37:52

       Some- sometimes, you know, like I, I, uh, eh, you know, it's every single time you step into the ring, nothing is guaranteed. Um, it's, uh, you could be hurt, you could hurt somebody, you could win, you could lose. You know, th- throwing away, just like I said, throwing away your healthier life cheaply makes no sense for anyone. Um, and, you know, having demonstrating some degree of, of, of temperance is not cowardly either. I mean, but again, you're, if you wait too long, you have nothing. So I guess like, uh, I was trying and, and always being, I'm always open to fighting the absolute best people possible. I'm never turning down fights ever. Um, you know, if some random jabroni decides that he wants to fight, I'm like, "Go away." If I wanted to just fight randoms, I would just start at the stand of the, you know, on, on the table at Denny's and start yelling and I'm sure it would have, you know, some people who would be willing to indulge me. But, um, you know, you wanna fight (laughs) um, you know, meaningful opponents, challenging opponents and I, and I know who and where they are. And sometimes they say no.

   29. LFLex Fridman38:48

       You did fight in Atlantic City. You know-

   30. RHRyan Hall38:50

       I did.
8. 44:01 – 1:01:48

   Free will

   1. LFLex Fridman44:01

      Hey, by the way, uh, I, I completely forgot 'cause you were talking about systems and, uh, decision trees and the illusion of choice made me think of Sam Harris. And I forgot, uh, to mention it. So he talks about free will quite a bit.

   2. RHRyan Hall44:14

      Huh.

   3. LFLex Fridman44:15

      And that there's an illusion of free will. So it's like these-

   4. RHRyan Hall44:19

      That's a bold claim, Cotton. (laughs)

   5. LFLex Fridman44:21

      (laughs) That, uh, you know, maybe the universe constructed that little game where y- it makes us feel like we have a bunch of choices, but we really don't. We're really always ending up with a middle finger, which-

   6. RHRyan Hall44:32

      That would be hilarious.

   7. LFLex Fridman44:34

      Yeah, that, that's what you see before you die-

   8. RHRyan Hall44:37

      Yeah. (laughs)

   9. LFLex Fridman44:37

      ... is just a giant middle finger. It's like, "Oh, fuck."

   10. RHRyan Hall44:40

       I knew it.

   11. LFLex Fridman44:41

       Uh-

   12. RHRyan Hall44:41

       I knew it.

   13. LFLex Fridman44:42

       ... s- y- what do you think? Do you think there's a free will? Like, we feel like we're making choices. So you're thinking, again, what we were talking about, okay, here's a system of martial arts that's, uh, Renzo Gracie, there's different schools and whatever. And then you're thinking, "Okay, how can I think outside these systems?" But then there's, uh, also a system that's our human society and we feel like there's a actual choice being made by us individuals. Do you think that choice is real?

   14. RHRyan Hall45:12

       Mm-hmm.

   15. LFLex Fridman45:12

       Or is it just an illusion?

   16. RHRyan Hall45:13

       Well, I, okay, that's a really good question. I'm not necessarily equipped to answer this, but I'll do my best.

   17. LFLex Fridman45:18

       Yeah.

   18. RHRyan Hall45:18

       Um, okay. I guess I would say to start with, it sure would be interesting if it wasn't real, if the choice wasn't real.

   19. LFLex Fridman45:24

       Yeah.

   20. RHRyan Hall45:24

       Um, it would be pretty as- interesting if it is real. Uh, first off, I would start with, uh, facilitative beliefs versus not facilitative beliefs. It's almost like, uh, "I think the world's out to get me." True, not true, what next?

   21. LFLex Fridman45:38

       Mm-hmm.

   22. RHRyan Hall45:38

       Probably not a facilitative belief. Even if you, e- if, imagine you believe there's no free will.

   23. LFLex Fridman45:42

       Mm-hmm.

   24. RHRyan Hall45:43

       Okay, now what? Does that justify every single impulse that you're going to give into? Or does the belief in free will, just the belief in my ability to work hard, to focus, to be disciplined, to improve my position, prove my situation, whether it's true or not, although I think that at least many of us would argue that at least whether, whether there's some sort of internal driver that allows for that.

   25. LFLex Fridman46:06

       Yeah.

   26. RHRyan Hall46:07

       Like, w- y- we live in a material world. Your actions do affect the world. Uh, I can choose to pick that water up or not. Um, and anyway, uh, I would say I believe strongly in the idea of picking facilitative beliefs. Um, you know, and going, "Hey, I will adjust..." Whether this belief system is right or wrong on a cosmic level, I'm nowhere near smart enough to understand. But I can say me deciding that, let's say for instance, I'm gonna walk over to have a conversation with someone in the hotel lobby and they've, and I've never met them and I go over and I start with, "Huh, this is gonna be interesting," and I just walk over there versus in my head I'm like, "What's this asshole want?" We're about to have two very different conversations. W- I could be right that this person's not very polite or is, or thinks negatively of me right from go, but I think that that's probably not a facilitative belief people talk about. Now, I'm, how is that gonna help me navigate the conversation to a positive conclusion? And I think about that for, uh, um, you know, let's say fighting it's a good example, like confidence. Pe- plenty of people believe plenty of things that aren't real (laughs) , myself included, I'm sure, uh, all the time. And, uh, anyway, believing that you can do something, I'm like, "Hey, I think I can win," doesn't guarantee you a positive outcome but I would say it, most of us would probably-

   27. LFLex Fridman47:22

       It helps.

   28. RHRyan Hall47:22

       Yeah, uh, most of us would argue that it helps. Um, if you think about depression-

   29. LFLex Fridman47:24

       And you're thinking of believing.

   30. RHRyan Hall47:25

       What's depression if, if not a, a negative unfacilitative belief that is not always, that oftentimes is not reflected by reality.
9. 1:01:48 – 1:10:50

   Freedom and compassion

   1. RHRyan Hall1:01:48

   2. LFLex Fridman1:01:48

      Yeah. So the libertarian viewpoint which I probably espouse, like that's... I'm very much like, uh, freedom of the individual is very valuable and like leave others the fuck alone unless they're trying to hurt you. The thing is you also have to I believe put in the- the work of empathy of understanding what others... how... what leaving people the fuck alone means to others.

   3. RHRyan Hall1:02:14

      But isn't that an interesting thing? If I believe in freedom of the invi- individual and I take that, like all of these like you said, you take them past just their first que- why question, you ask why, why, why, why or how, how, how, how many times, should that not extend to respect for you, respect for your position, respect for your individual lived experience which could be grossly different than mine?

   4. LFLex Fridman1:02:34

      Yeah. This is the problem with saying I'm an individual, I'm not gonna bother you, you don't bother me. That's just like, that's not actionable because to- to be, to make it actionable you have to think the why, why, why, why, why, you have to do the steps beyond.

   5. RHRyan Hall1:02:49

      Right.

   6. LFLex Fridman1:02:49

      You think what does that actually mean? That means understanding how even my very existence, uh, like hurts others.

   7. RHRyan Hall1:02:57

      Hmm.

   8. LFLex Fridman1:02:57

      (laughs) Because you have to understand that like I'm not, you're not just sitting alone in a room, you're, uh, you're using like public transit, you're using the police force, you're using firefighters, you're using the... Like you're using a lot of resources that are publicly shared and some of those resources are- are unfairly distributed.

   9. RHRyan Hall1:03:18

      Mm.

   10. LFLex Fridman1:03:18

       Uh, like we've agreed that we're gonna pay taxes and those taxes are gonna go towards building some kind of infrastructure, so that's already towards social. That's... So you're not a real, you're- you're not a real sort of like talk to Michael Malice like anarchist, right? Saying like basically full just leave me the fuck alone and I'm going to collaborate with whoever the hell I want. We're not the... that's not the American society as it stands currently. We've agreed that there's going to be certain social institutions that we pay into.

   11. RHRyan Hall1:03:51

       Yes.

   12. LFLex Fridman1:03:51

       And, uh, s- some of the sort of discussions about race and all those kinds of things, uh, is about those institutions being, uh, institutionally unfair, whether it's race or gender, all those kinds of things. Listen, I, you know, I have a bunch of criticisms of the way that conversation carries itself out but the thing is what's valuable is to actually listen and empathize and that's not often- often talked about with the leave me the fuck alone mindset because you're, um, it doesn't have, it doesn't have that little component which I think could be fundamental to the function of a society which is like social. Like, uh, it's the what is it, the Obama you didn't build it or you didn't build it alone or whatever, how- however that goes. But basically, we wouldn't be, we wouldn't be able to accomplish anything as individuals without the help of others.

   13. RHRyan Hall1:04:47

       Mm.

   14. LFLex Fridman1:04:48

       And to be able to then start to think, okay, so what is, what is, what is my duty, what is my responsibility to other human beings to be respectful, to be loving, to- to help them as part of this functioning society. That starts, that's actually a lot of work to start to think about that.

   15. RHRyan Hall1:05:05

       For sure.

   16. LFLex Fridman1:05:06

       Because then I have to like think, okay, Ryan, what's his life like? Like as a business owner during COVID, what's that like? And then he has, uh, these employees that run the gym. What's that like? What's that stress like?

   17. RHRyan Hall1:05:18

       Right.

   18. LFLex Fridman1:05:18

       Or about the fighting and the injuring and so on. What's that like? That empathy takes a lot of like compute cycles.

   19. RHRyan Hall1:05:24

       It-

   20. LFLex Fridman1:05:25

       And, uh-

   21. RHRyan Hall1:05:25

       ... it's also a lot of energy, right?

   22. LFLex Fridman1:05:26

       But I have to go through that computation if I want to be an individual that's like doesn't hurt you.

   23. RHRyan Hall1:05:36

       If- if I may, I guess like to- to come back to Muhammad Ali, one of the things that he said is service to others is the rent- is the rent that you pay for your, you know, is the- it's the price you pay for your rent here on Earth.

   24. LFLex Fridman1:05:45

       Yeah.

   25. RHRyan Hall1:05:45

       And now I- one of the things that I think that I see as a result of the internet all the time is people talking about global giant problems, social problems that are society wide that are massive, like truly massive and frankly beyond the- beyond the power of any of us to solve.

   26. LFLex Fridman1:06:04

       Yeah.

   27. RHRyan Hall1:06:04

       And certainly on an individual level. So I have, you know, I've discussed things with friends, like my father's an environmental attorney, like, uh, you know, has been for a long time and has been an engineer for a long time and, uh, you know, so I'm not- not barely know anything but I'm reading a little bit of- of various things. But, uh...... climate change. Oh, my God. I'm so concerned about climate change. What am I supposed to do about climate change? I'll tell you what I can do, is I can not litter. I can try to conserve energy where I can. I can do whatever I want. What can I personally do about some giant social problem that is, that I didn't start and I, that's out of my control? And I'm like, well, I can be decent to the people around me. Like you mentioned, I can demonstrate empathy and I can demonstrate consideration for the people in my circle and to the extent that I can, the people outside of my circle. But yelling at the trees over things that, over problems that are borderline cosmic, um, doesn't seem very productive. It just makes me feel like I'm cool and important because I'm talking about something where hundreds of years from now, the water will rise. Maybe it will, maybe it won't. I can't, it's completely over my head. I, I know nothing.

   28. LFLex Fridman1:07:06

       Yeah.

   29. RHRyan Hall1:07:06

       But focusing on the problems that we can actually solve, it comes back to the same thing. I want to win a fight. I would love to win a fight. Uh, I can't control that. What I can do is, I can control each individual step that I take around the ring and try to make the next correct move. I can't look. No, it, it, it gets people's, uh, you know, they, they get all excited. You know, I'm trying to keep my language in check. But they get all excited thinking about, uh, you know, problems that are... You know, like, Superman couldn't solve these problems. Like, you could be that powerful and you can't make all of the bad things go away, but you can absolutely change yourself. And I think a lot of the lessons that, you know, like the good lessons from religion that happened, the good lessons from the great men and women throughout history that we, that we are inspired by, that talk about change starting with- within. And, you know, again, treating the people around you decently and treating the people around you decently doesn't even necessarily mean the golden rule. Do unto others as you would like them to do to you. I go, well, maybe what I would like and what this person would like aren't the same thing. Well, how am I gonna get to the bottom of that? 'Cause I could be attempting to be decent to this person, and by my standard, I am being decent, but maybe I'm, uh, maybe I'm missing the mark by theirs. Well, I can't possibly if I just interacted with you, like, it's like someone's talking about some nonsense microaggression. You're like, so let me get this straight. I've never met you before, you never met me before, and you're interpreting some minor comment that, that I've made in the least charitable way possible.

Episode duration: 2:53:28