RZA: Wu-Tang Clan, Kung Fu, Chess, God, Life, and Death | Lex Fridman Podcast #228

1. 0:00 – 0:24

   Introduction

   1. LFLex Fridman0:00

      The following is a conversation with RZA, the rapper, record producer, filmmaker, actor, writer, philosopher, kung fu scholar, and the mastermind of the legendary hip-hop group Wu-Tang Clan. This is the Lex Fridman Podcast. To support it, please check out our sponsors in the description, and now here's my conversation with RZA.

2. 0:24 – 7:43

   Life and death

   1. LFLex Fridman0:24

      In The Tao of Wu, you write, "When my mother left the physical world, I lost one of my main links to the universe. They say that you have an umbilical cord and an etheric cord, which is the invisible cord that attaches you to your soul, your mother's soul, and all other souls. When one passes away, you really lose something. It's physical and mental. It's real. Part of you dies." What have you learned about life from your mother?

   2. RZRZA0:56

      I mean, I learned life itself from my mother. You know, being one of 11 children and seeing the sacrifice that she gave to us, therefore given to life, uh, is really the greatest lesson of life. The thing that, uh, shook me as I wrote those words was, coming up young with arrogance, confidence, knowledge of myself, they called me the scientist. We was taught, "You're the supreme being. In order to be the supreme being, you gotta be supreme amongst other beings."

   3. LFLex Fridman1:45

      Mm-hmm.

   4. RZRZA1:45

      Um, I understand that more now than I did then, because then, uh, it was so literal. You know, the word God derived basically from the Greek language as they say, and it meant wisdom, strength, and beauty. And yeah, we could have that, but the power to control life and death is something that you would assume is a God trait. So now, here you are saying that you're a God, right? And you'll read in the Bible how Jesus brought back Lazarus, and, you know, now here's your turn to do something. And when my mother was laying there in the hospital bed t- and air was no longer coming out of her lungs and going into her lungs, where's my power to bring her back to life?

   5. LFLex Fridman2:42

      So, you can't truly be God. You're powerless.

   6. RZRZA2:46

      Yeah, or God is not the definition that we need to use to describe it because it's a translation d- of wisdom, strength, and beauty. So, you could be that, but, uh, so I'm answering your question, what did my mother teach me about life. I learnt that day on her physical passing, okay, you know what I mean? There's a physical me.

   7. LFLex Fridman3:09

      Do you think about her? Do you miss her?

   8. RZRZA3:12

      Of course. I keep my mother in my prayer every day, and the thing I pray the most, uh, beyond giving thanks, is I pray that her name is honored and remembered by my family. I don't know if the world's gonna (laughs) remember her, right? Even though if you watched my movie Love Beats Rhymes, I named the school in that movie (laughs) -

   9. LFLex Fridman3:38

      (laughs)

   10. RZRZA3:38

       ... after my mother, just to-

   11. LFLex Fridman3:40

       Yeah.

   12. RZRZA3:40

       ... leave it somewhere else. (laughs)

   13. LFLex Fridman3:41

       (laughs) Yeah. In physical space, yeah.

   14. RZRZA3:44

       Yeah, exactly. But yeah-

   15. LFLex Fridman3:46

       (laughs)

   16. RZRZA3:46

       ... painful. The pain of my mother's passing is indescribable. Only until it happens to a person they know, and then they won't describe it either. Only the people that lost their mother, they could look at each other and they got this nod, you know what I mean? Um, but one other thing happened to me, was the joy of life hit me differently. And I think it was the realization of my own mortality versus my immortality. It's a big, big thing, and I don't know if we'll get to expound on that, but there was a joy that overcame me because I was kind of free of a certain illusion about the immortality of my physical being versus the mortality (laughs) of my physical being. And I was like, "Okay, wow, I understand."

   17. LFLex Fridman4:42

       So, that was the first or the hardest realization you've experienced that you're mortal?

   18. RZRZA4:48

       Yeah, that, yeah. And I'll say mortal in the, what you're looking at here physically. I won't say my soul is mortal. Right? I'll say it's immortal because at the end of the day, it's just like I could sit here and I could just hum <s please, please, please</s by James Brown, but James Brown is not gonna come in here and do that.

   19. LFLex Fridman5:16

       So, in some sense, James Brown is still here. In another sense, he's gone.

   20. RZRZA5:19

       His soul is here. (laughs)

   21. LFLex Fridman5:21

       His soul... (laughs)

   22. RZRZA5:21

       His soul is here.

   23. LFLex Fridman5:22

       Well, it lives through you by you singing it. It lives through you by you listening to it, celebrating it. And the hope is that, uh, the human species continues to celebrate the, the, the great minds and the great creations of the past.

   24. RZRZA5:37

       I would add this to that equation. When I say it's immortal, I don't think th- not just only because somebody sings it, right? It's like, why is... Where is the fire at right now? It's in the air. You just gotta spark the sparkle.

   25. LFLex Fridman5:57

       (laughs) Yeah.

   26. RZRZA5:58

       So, it's always there.

   27. LFLex Fridman6:01

       Are you afraid of death?

   28. RZRZA6:03

       Mmm, nah, I'm not afraid of death. I, I ain't d- I'm not, I'm not trying to see it, you know? (laughs)

   29. LFLex Fridman6:08

       Mm-hmm.

   30. RZRZA6:08

       (laughs) I'm not, I'm not rushing that nowhere near me, right? Because all I know is life. Right? My life is living. Um, you know, I read a lot of ancient texts that s- people probably know about me, and I love one of the great teachers named Bodhidharma. Uh, and he... And there was a th- thing written in, you know, one of the, uh, books of his, or one of the teachings of his, and the question... Somebody asked him similar question. You know, "Are you scared of death?" Or, "What are you gonna be after you die?" And his answer was, "I don't know." He had answers to everything, i- i- uh, but he's like, "I don't know." They said, "Oh, he doesn't know that." He said, "Yeah, because I haven't died yet."
3. 7:43 – 13:06

   Quincy Jones

   1. RZRZA7:43

   2. LFLex Fridman7:43

      On this topic, uh, Quincy Jones, I read, uh, said to ODB and you, "When it rains, get wet." What do these words mean to you?

   3. RZRZA7:54

      Well, I think what Quincy was saying at that time was... You know, I think I was more conservative, like as a person, and like, you know, had money, women wanted me.

   4. LFLex Fridman8:08

      Yeah.

   5. RZRZA8:09

      Anything I kinda wanted, uh, I probably coulda had. You know what I mean? And he was just saying, "When it rains, get wet." Enjoy this, man. It's raining on you. You know what I mean? Don't even put up... Don't put up the umbrella, don't go back in the house. (laughs)

   6. LFLex Fridman8:24

      Yeah.

   7. RZRZA8:25

      Get wet.

   8. LFLex Fridman8:25

      Experience the moment.

   9. RZRZA8:27

      Yeah, and enjoy it. I th- And I didn't take total heed to him at that time. A couple years later, I took some heed. (laughs) But at that time, I didn't take heed, and, and when I took heed, I think that I may have misinterpreted by looking at his example of getting wet versus my example of getting wet. And I could tell you right now, I'm getting wet, right now, in my way.

   10. LFLex Fridman8:56

       In part, thanks to your mother, but overall, you just have learned how to appreciate the rain.

   11. RZRZA9:01

       Yeah.

   12. LFLex Fridman9:01

       Just like the, the experience of every moment.

   13. RZRZA9:04

       Yeah, and I'll share this with you 'cause we're... This is gonna be a very open conversation, and I haven't had this conversation, so.

   14. LFLex Fridman9:10

       (laughs)

   15. RZRZA9:11

       Definitely in part to my mother, then in part to my wife. I meet my wife, it's my second wife, but I met her after my mother passed, and she was just a friend. You know, some girl I s- I met at the... Thought she was beautiful, and actually built a friendship with her. Uh, but a few years later, when the relationship became like, you know, "This is, this is gonna be my woman," it was actually during... When I... It was during the middle of my, of my divorce, and I was like, you know, "Do I run wild? And hey, hey, hey. You know, me and my wife have already filed, we were separated, and do I run wild?" And I didn't run wild. A little bit, but not too wild, right?

   16. LFLex Fridman9:55

       (laughs)

   17. RZRZA9:55

       And, uh, you know, I'm a, still a man, right?

   18. LFLex Fridman9:58

       Yeah.

   19. RZRZA9:58

       So... I'm a hip hop guy, so. (laughs)

   20. LFLex Fridman10:00

       Yeah. I read you know how to party.

   21. RZRZA10:01

       Yeah, exactly.

   22. LFLex Fridman10:02

       Somewhat.

   23. RZRZA10:02

       But the funny thing is that my wife now, her name is Tolani, my uncle said, "She reminds me of your mother." He knew my mother when... Before I knew my mother. And he saw that, and it... And, and we ended up, uh, dating, um, got engaged, and then her mother passes. And so now, there's a total understanding of everything, and we actually help build each other back up. So when... So, of course, I have to thank my mother for the awareness. Um, then I thank my wife for bringing that awareness to actua- actualization.

   24. LFLex Fridman10:49

       Mm-hmm.

   25. RZRZA10:50

       Like, to actually feel, uh... I don't think I'd be talking to you right now, and talking as much as I do these days, if it wasn't for the security and peace and harmony that I was able to gain in home, you know? So.

   26. LFLex Fridman11:05

       And like you said, you now share that look of having t- both lost your-

   27. RZRZA11:10

       Yeah.

   28. LFLex Fridman11:11

       ... your mom. What have you learned from Quincy f- about music, about business, about life?

   29. RZRZA11:19

       Quincy Jones is a great mind, a great artist, uh, you know, a treasure, in all reality. He's seen it from when it was he couldn't walk in th- he couldn't eat in the same places he played his music at, to owning places bigger than those. (laughs)

   30. LFLex Fridman11:36

       (laughs)
4. 13:06 – 16:32

   Quentin Tarantino

   1. RZRZA13:06

   2. LFLex Fridman13:06

      You've had a few people you've worked with who are fascinating like yourself. Quentin Tarantino, you worked with him. Uh, when somebody asked you to describe him with one word, you said encyclopedia. What have you learned from the guy, about filmmaking, about life again?

   3. RZRZA13:22

      A very generous man with his knowledge. And for me, he shared it, I think, in a way that was unique in a sense of, you know, at a point in time, you know, we just was super-duper tight, like, you know, like I'm going to his crib and watching movies and, and just having long conversations about art and about life. You know what I mean? Um, so I learned a lot. I, I consider him, you know, especially when it comes to anything cinematic in my life, I consider him the godfather of that for me. I think, um, you know, I, I humbly asked him to mentor me, which is a very humbling thing to do, coming from my neighborhood, coming from who I am, coming from... I was already a multi-platinum artist, you know, with... I mean, it was the year... It was past the year 2000 already.

   4. LFLex Fridman14:15

      Mm-hmm.

   5. RZRZA14:16

      So it's like 2001, 2002 that I asked him to mentor me. So I was the Wiz' already. (laughs)

   6. LFLex Fridman14:22

      Mm-hmm. Yeah.

   7. RZRZA14:23

      You know what I mean? But I humbled myself because I saw in him a craft of brain power that, to me, resonated with me, but I was just a patamon at it, I was a novice at it, um, because I was trying to make movies in my music, you know, trying to make videos and s-... And here was a man who was a master of it and an encyclopedia of it as well. And, uh-

   8. LFLex Fridman14:50

      Like film history?

   9. RZRZA14:51

      Film history, from whether it's the actor, the director, the cinematographer-

   10. LFLex Fridman14:56

       Yeah.

   11. RZRZA14:56

       ... maybe even the costume designer. He may know 50, 60 more... He may know the 50 greatest costume designers in his memory.

   12. LFLex Fridman15:03

       Mm-hmm.

   13. RZRZA15:04

       You know what I mean? It's God's brain.

   14. LFLex Fridman15:06

       Both of you have pretty good memory. (laughs)

   15. RZRZA15:09

       (laughs) Yeah. A- and...

   16. LFLex Fridman15:09

       I'd love to be a fly on the wall of that conversation. Yeah, and kung fu movies, mostly you guys watched?

   17. RZRZA15:14

       T- we actually started... I think we, we, we started our relationship trying to outdo each other.

   18. LFLex Fridman15:21

       Knowledge-wise, or what?

   19. RZRZA15:22

       Yeah, m- movie knowledge-wise.

   20. LFLex Fridman15:24

       Movie knowledge.

   21. RZRZA15:24

       Kung- actually, kung fu movie knowledge-wise.

   22. LFLex Fridman15:27

       (laughs)

   23. RZRZA15:27

       And I think that cat-... If it wasn't another category, I wouldn't have had a chance. But at least in that category-

   24. LFLex Fridman15:32

       Yeah.

   25. RZRZA15:33

       ... I was pretty holding my weight. (laughs)

   26. LFLex Fridman15:35

       Who won?

   27. RZRZA15:36

       You know what? I'll be honest and say that I may have said a few he didn't see.

   28. LFLex Fridman15:43

       Yeah.

   29. RZRZA15:43

       But Quentin is older than me.

   30. LFLex Fridman15:45

       Yeah. (laughs)
5. 16:32 – 21:28

   Kung Fu

   1. RZRZA16:32

   2. LFLex Fridman16:32

      You talk about knowledge, you talk about wisdom. What, what, uh, kind of wisdom do you draw from kung fu movies? The, you know what, the martial art itself and the movies.

   3. RZRZA16:42

      It's endless wisdom to be drawn, and I draw it, you know. I draw it in a way, you know, that I could decipher it in my own life. So, for instance, in the movie, Master Killer, uh, he basically, when he does kung fu, he does a really... a style called the Hung Ga technique. And the director of the movie is actually a Hung Ga expert who has a lineage that traces all the way back to Shaolin Temple. And this director always wanted to keep his movies pure and to bring Hung Ga to the world. It's like he wanted to show the world this lineage. In fact, you just said Master of the Flying Guillotine is Quentin's favorite movie, and we mentioned in 36 Chambers, it's my favorite movie. But the action director of Master of Flying Guillotine is the director of 36 Chambers of Shaolin.

   4. LFLex Fridman17:40

      Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah.

   5. RZRZA17:40

      And some of the things that's happening in Master of the Fl- of the Flying Guillotine is really the infant stage of what this action director is gonna learn and then use later on in his movies. So that's the beauty of it. It's almost like, you know, Quentin is seeing him in his generation. So Quentin might have been the same age I was-

   6. LFLex Fridman18:02

      Yeah.

   7. RZRZA18:02

      ... watching that movie. And then when he becomes a director, I'm at Quentin's age, and now I'm seeing his work. So some s- symbiotic relationship there. And I'll end this question by saying-... Hung Gar deals with the five animal technique, the tiger, the crane, right, the leopard, the snake, uh, and the dragon. Those are the five. That's the five pattern. Some people go seven, some go 12, but let's just stick to the five pattern first. How do a man emulate a tiger? And you see a tiger's fierce, he curls before he spawns on you. How does a man emulate a snake? It doesn't have to be only in the Kung Fu move. It's in the ideology of the snake.

   8. LFLex Fridman18:54

      Mm-hmm.

   9. RZRZA18:54

      It's in the, the, the agility of the crane at any moment. Sometimes punching a person is not gonna work as they would say in leopard fist or tiger paw, so sometimes you might have to poke them in the eye with the crane's beak.

   10. LFLex Fridman19:12

       Mm-hmm.

   11. RZRZA19:12

       So having your mind able to adapt the instinct of the animal when you are being attacked or when you are being the aggressor, that's something that you don't need a form for, that's the mentality. So Kung Fu like I said, it informs me endlessly because at first I was trying to learn (laughs) like hold my... Like I can't really hit you with that and really hurt you unless I've been banging my hand 1,000 times on some bricks-

   12. LFLex Fridman19:39

       Yeah.

   13. RZRZA19:39

       ... and made it so calloused or s- or muscles are so strong. But the idea that if me and you was to get into a fight and I'm gonna tiger up on you and take that instinct and prance when I'm gonna prance-

   14. LFLex Fridman19:53

       (laughs) .

   15. RZRZA19:53

       ... or slo- fly away like the stork. (laughs) .

   16. LFLex Fridman19:57

       (laughs) .

   17. RZRZA19:57

       You know what I mean? Like, yo, it's this, that's the mentality.

   18. LFLex Fridman20:00

       It's much more than the technical moves, it's, it's much deeper.

   19. RZRZA20:04

       Yeah.

   20. LFLex Fridman20:06

       Yeah, it's interesting. I mean, when I see the Kung Fu movies because I- I'm a, I love martial arts, all martial arts and, and competitive ones too, like the actual competitions and so on, it just seems like Kung Fu movies go much deeper than just like the techniques.

   21. RZRZA20:20

       Yeah. They strive? I mean if you see it, right? Even, I watched a great MMA fight recently and, uh, just interesting the... 'Cause he was on top of the guy, you know, and the way he got from under him.

   22. LFLex Fridman20:34

       Mm-hmm.

   23. RZRZA20:35

       You know? It had to be, you know, his spirit got from under him. (laughs) .

   24. LFLex Fridman20:42

       It's something like mixture of crane and, uh, whatever. (laughs)

   25. RZRZA20:45

       Snake, eel, he did slippery eel technique.

   26. LFLex Fridman20:48

       Yeah, yeah, yeah.

   27. RZRZA20:49

       (laughs) .

   28. LFLex Fridman20:49

       No, I love that when people are, become artists in the cage or they... That's much bigger than just like winning, much bigger than particular techniques, it's just art.

   29. RZRZA20:58

       Yeah.

   30. LFLex Fridman20:58

       Especially at the highest level competition where millions of people are watching. S-
6. 21:28 – 23:15

   Biggie

   1. LFLex Fridman21:28

      So you're a scholar of history, including hip hop history. You've, uh... I've listened to so many of your interviews. Uh, you've spoken brilliantly about some of the big figures in, in, in hip hop history, Tupac, Biggie, Nas, many others. Maybe, uh, let's look at Tupac and Biggie. What made them special in the history of music?

   2. RZRZA21:50

      Hmm. That's a good question. So I don't know if I'm the authority to answer it, but I'll just speak my piece on it and maybe I could just add on, 'cause I'm sure it's a lot of people that spent a lot of time with them that could speak on it. But just as a fellow artist, um, I think Not only was B-I-G a dope lyricist, I think he had a voice that was really immaculate in the sense that some rappers get on top of music and you gotta get used to them or you gotta vi- you know, you gotta vibe with them.

   3. LFLex Fridman22:29

      Mm-hmm.

   4. RZRZA22:30

      But he make a record sounds like a record immediately. If you go back and listen to his music, you could take his voice and put it on anything, and for some reason, it sounds like a record. I- You know what I mean?

   5. LFLex Fridman22:48

      You mean just like the raw voice of the man?

   6. RZRZA22:50

      Yeah. Yeah.

   7. LFLex Fridman22:51

      So you could just listen to it raw and it sounds like a record.

   8. RZRZA22:54

      Yeah. But if you put a beat, take his voice and put it on any beat, it's, i- he just has a voice, it's immaculate, you know?

   9. LFLex Fridman23:03

      (laughs) .

   10. RZRZA23:04

       So his lyrical skills and all that was great, um, and you gotta think once again, he's doing all this, he's not even 25 years old.

   11. LFLex Fridman23:12

       Yeah. Yeah.

7. 23:15 – 26:12

   Tupac

   1. RZRZA23:15

      Then you go to Pac, once again, immaculate voice, but what Pac had I think was a way of touching us on all of our emotions and especially on... Like Pac had the power to infuse your emotional thought, like Brenda has a baby, Dear Mama, but then he had the power to arouse your, the rebel in you. You know?

   2. LFLex Fridman23:43

      Yeah.

   3. RZRZA23:44

      And those two things, uh... Actually he's, he was probably more dangerous, uh, than Big, No- Notorious B-I-G. Like, Notorious B-I-G we could party with him to this day, we are still... But Pac was probably going to a point, you know, he was more going into the Malcolm X of things. And-

   4. LFLex Fridman24:08

      Yeah.

   5. RZRZA24:08

      ... and, and, and society fears that.

   6. LFLex Fridman24:12

      Yeah. So he was really good at communicating love and, and, and at starting revolutions.

   7. RZRZA24:19

      Yeah.

   8. LFLex Fridman24:19

      (laughs)

   9. RZRZA24:19

      Yeah.

   10. LFLex Fridman24:20

       And that's dangerous.

   11. RZRZA24:21

       Very dangerous.

   12. LFLex Fridman24:22

       (laughs)

   13. RZRZA24:22

       And Big communicated love, but he wasn't starting revolutions. (laughs)

   14. LFLex Fridman24:27

       (laughs) Well, it's, it's interesting to think about what the world would be like if they were still with us. But, it's the way of the world. Hendrix, a lot of those guys, just go too, too soon.

   15. RZRZA24:39

       Yeah. It's, it's a peculiar thing, you know? So now, you asked me earlier, am not scared of death? Um, and I answered you, "No, I'm not scared of death." You know what I mean? I'm not trying to see it though, you know what I mean? (laughs)

   16. LFLex Fridman24:52

       Yeah.

   17. RZRZA24:52

       It's like, if that was the block of death, it's like, I'm not really going right there right now. I'm t- I'm making a left or right turn, you know what I mean? Unless it was mandatory for some greaterness, greater good. It's like, "Okay, I gotta drive through that." You know what I mean? (laughs)

   18. LFLex Fridman25:08

       Yeah, but it can still happen. That's the meditation on death part, where you could die at the end of today.

   19. RZRZA25:14

       Yeah. You could die or de- well, dying and death are, I think, is two different things, personally. Um-

   20. LFLex Fridman25:21

       The process you mean of death? Or just-

   21. RZRZA25:23

       Yeah, I mean, you could die, like I said, you could die every day. You could die and not be yourself, you know what I mean?

   22. LFLex Fridman25:31

       Yeah.

   23. RZRZA25:31

       Which is crazy. But to get to a point of no return, you know, and that's a whole nother chamber.

   24. LFLex Fridman25:38

       I mean, there is some sense in which, um, RZA, the producer becomes somebody else completely when you're making a film, becomes somebody else completely when you're, um, I don't know, playing chess, becomes completely something different when you, uh, do Kung Fu or watch Kung Fu, or when you're a family man. All of those are little deaths when you transition from one place to another. So, it's not like you're one being, you're, you're many things.

   25. RZRZA26:06

       Yeah. I would descri- now I would describe that as one life though. (laughs)

   26. LFLex Fridman26:11

       (laughs) Yeah, it's

8. 26:12 – 29:15

   Nas

   1. LFLex Fridman26:12

      fun. Uh, outside of you, and, uh, anybody on Wu-Tang, who is the greatest rapper from a lyrics, like a wordsmith perspective in hip hop history? Or some of the greatest? Maybe some candidates.

   2. RZRZA26:27

      Just name a few. I mean, you're gonna have to start with Rakim, you know? You're gonna have to put Kool G Rap in there, you know what I mean?

   3. LFLex Fridman26:35

      So going back.

   4. RZRZA26:36

      Yeah. You're gonna have, you're gonna have to pick up with those brothers first. You might have to ev- if you wanna get technical, you might have to start with Grandmaster Caz, you know what I mean? Who you might not, you might not even heard of. You know what I mean? But you may have sung his lyrics w- every time you sang Sugar Hill, Rapper's Delight.

   5. LFLex Fridman26:51

      Mm-hmm.

   6. RZRZA26:52

      'Cause that's-

   7. LFLex Fridman26:52

      That's his.

   8. RZRZA26:52

      ... how was, yeah, they copied his, they copied his, and they made it theirs. (laughs)

   9. LFLex Fridman26:59

      (laughs)

   10. RZRZA26:59

       But point being made, but I'll, I'll, I'll name a couple more. I gotta put Nas in that category. You know, we got a chess board in front of us, and one of the greatest chess players, uh, the youngest grandmaster, you know, and that, you know, before I think, uh, Carlsen, was, uh, um-

   11. LFLex Fridman27:19

       American.

   12. RZRZA27:19

       ... Bobby Fi-

   13. LFLex Fridman27:20

       Yeah.

   14. RZRZA27:20

       ... Bobby Fischer.

   15. LFLex Fridman27:21

       Mm-hmm.

   16. RZRZA27:21

       Right? So he's actually, Bobby Fischer is American. One of the greatest American chess players. And of course Susan Polgar may have tied his record as the youngest grandmaster, and she's the youngest female grandmaster, I think to date. But he was a master at what, 14? 1... Yeah, something like that. Right? So now, to me, I met Nas when he was 15, and he was already a master lyricist. It takes about 10 years to become a master lyricist. So, by the time the world heard of Wu-Tang, most of us had 10 years of rapping in us already.

   17. LFLex Fridman27:55

       Mm-hmm.

   18. RZRZA27:56

       So that's why you, you, you met us at mastery level. The GZA was already a master when Nas was a master, but GZA was 21, Nas was 15. (laughs)

   19. LFLex Fridman28:06

       (laughs) So Nas is like the Mozart of rap. (laughs)

   20. RZRZA28:09

       Yeah.

   21. LFLex Fridman28:09

       Like just-

   22. RZRZA28:09

       Or the Bobby Fischer, 'cause he-

   23. LFLex Fridman28:10

       Just a Bobby Fischer, just born some-

   24. RZRZA28:13

       Yeah.

   25. LFLex Fridman28:13

       ... something in him, or maybe those early years just-

   26. RZRZA28:16

       Yeah.

   27. LFLex Fridman28:16

       Because he's, uh, he's not just good at the lyrics, he's also, he goes deep with it.

   28. RZRZA28:22

       Yeah.

   29. LFLex Fridman28:22

       Just like you. So there's like, there's, there's depth, it's not just the, like, mastery of the wo- the word smithing, it's just the message you actually gi- uh, uh, sends across.

   30. RZRZA28:35

       Yeah, condensing information.
9. 29:15 – 33:13

   Favorite verse

   1. LFLex Fridman29:15

      From you, or what are the best and most memorable lyrics you've ever written?

   2. RZRZA29:20

      F- Hm. Wow, that's a hard question for me.

   3. LFLex Fridman29:24

      Does stuff stand out? Like s- stuff you're really proud of that was, like, important in your career?

   4. RZRZA29:29

      Yeah. I, I, I, I mean, I think, I did a song called Sun- Sun Shower. I don't know if it, we put it on the Wu-Tang Forever double CD, but only on the international version.

   5. LFLex Fridman29:40

      Mm-hmm.

   6. RZRZA29:42

      But if anybody could go get those lyrics and write those lyrics down, you could just put that in your pocket, and I'm sure it'll, it'll answer at least about 25% of your life's problems. (laughs)

   7. LFLex Fridman29:52

      (laughs) Uh, well, there's a good one, uh, Sunshine, your, y- where you talk about religion and God. That's, that's good.

   8. RZRZA29:58

      It's on, I think it's on A Diagram.

   9. LFLex Fridman30:01

      I'm not a record guy.

   10. RZRZA30:02

       Yeah.

   11. LFLex Fridman30:03

       I'm a song guy.

   12. RZRZA30:03

       It might've been A Diagram. What ... C- do, do you have a l- a lyric from it?

   13. LFLex Fridman30:06

       Yeah. "The answer to all questions-"

   14. RZRZA30:08

       Yeah.

   15. LFLex Fridman30:09

       ... you're talking about God.

   16. RZRZA30:10

       Yeah.

   17. LFLex Fridman30:11

       "The spark of all suggestions, of righteousness, the pathway to the road of perfection. Who gives you all, and never asks more of you. The faithful companion that fights every war with you."... before the mortal view of the prehistorical, historical. He's the all and all, you're searching for the oracle.

   18. RZRZA30:28

       (laughs)

   19. LFLex Fridman30:28

       Look at that, man. This is such a good... This is so good. A mission impossible is purely philosophical, but you can call on your death bed when you're laying in the hospital.

   20. RZRZA30:37

       You will call him on your death bed.

   21. LFLex Fridman30:39

       Yeah.

   22. RZRZA30:39

       I had a big... I have a scientist friend.

   23. LFLex Fridman30:42

       (laughs)

   24. RZRZA30:43

       Well, my wife's best friend, Rebecca, uh, she married a sci... They're both scientists. They both were scientists, and she married, uh, Dr. Neil. Uh, I don't, I don't, I ain't gonna say their last names.

   25. LFLex Fridman30:55

       (laughs)

   26. RZRZA30:55

       But Neil and Rebecca, you know, you know, you know, he's my wife's best friend, so they come over and me and Neil, we go through the longest debates of science and religion. We just go. We could go break, we could go break of day with it. And, you know, before he had a child, he was more adamant in, you know, there's... You know, don't believe in God, you know what I mean? After a child, he still kept his thing, but I just hit him with a question. "If you was about to die," 'cause now you got a child to think about, right? (laughs)

   27. LFLex Fridman31:31

       Yeah. Yeah.

   28. RZRZA31:31

       It's different when you're thinking about yourself. I said, "If you was about to die, you, you don't think you're gonna make that call?" He's like, "I, I'll make that call."

   29. LFLex Fridman31:40

       (laughs)

   30. RZRZA31:40

       And, and it kinda inspired my lyric, because it was like, yeah, who... You gonna ...
10. 33:13 – 38:23

    Who is God?

    1. LFLex Fridman33:13

       Who's God to you?

    2. RZRZA33:15

       I'm glad you just asked that question, 'cause I actually, mm, I'm gonna have to make a, a distinguishable separation here.

    3. LFLex Fridman33:22

       (laughs) All right.

    4. RZRZA33:25

       Um, and it's funny because I heard recently, uh, I heard a rabbi was debating with, uh, this historian, Dr. Ben. I can't pronounce Dr. Ben name, but they was debating. And in the debate, they started going back through the etymology. They went way back beyond antiquity, 'cause they was debating, and so they was, you know, some things they was going deep, and they really went far, far back to kind of the first word of, of God.

    5. LFLex Fridman33:57

       Mm-hmm.

    6. RZRZA33:58

       And it was... When they pronounced it on this particular debate, it was Allah, and they said from that they got Elohim.

    7. LFLex Fridman34:05

       Mm-hmm.

    8. RZRZA34:07

       Um, I've already agreed in my heart and my life that the father of this universe, proper name is Allah. Um, and of course, in Allah I get all (laughs) you know. Um, and I don't think that God is the same as that. I think Allah gives birth to God. In fact, if you take the word Allah, A-L-L-A-H, and you take it through numerology or numbers, the number A being, letter A being one, L being 12, and you add it all up to its lowest, uh, to, you know, the, the last denominator, you're gonna get the number seven, and the number seven is gonna bring you right back to that letter G. So Allah borns God, but God don't born Allah.

    9. LFLex Fridman34:59

       How does, how does that god, how does Allah connect to the oracle, the, that you're, you're going to be calling for when you're laying in the hospital?

    10. RZRZA35:08

        Well, what I was saying in that particular verse was that we're looking for the oracle. We're looking for somebody else or something to help us that nobody could really help you at the end of the day, you know. And we're speaking on, on... So now that we... I don't want to say we're speaking on religion, but we're speaking on a way of life and a way of thinking. Uh, and I've read many books, of course, you... And I could say there's no book that my... The book that is the most strongest book I've ever read is actually the Holy Quran.

    11. LFLex Fridman35:40

        Hmm.

    12. RZRZA35:40

        It's stronger to me than my, than the Bible, which I've read. It's stronger than quantum physics, which I've read. It's stronger than the Bhagavad Gita. It's just... And, and I've read once, uh, a British scholar said it's the most stupidest book ever written, and it doesn't make sense. And I, so I said, "Oh, I see why he says that though." (laughs) Now I can understand exactly why he said that as well.

    13. LFLex Fridman36:04

        Why is that?

    14. RZRZA36:06

        Because the, the structure of the words are just... It's peculiar, you know what I mean? But it's almost like how some people's songs you don't really know exactly what they say until years later.

    15. LFLex Fridman36:20

        Yeah. (laughs) Uh, yeah, you have, uh... Actually with Joe Rogan, I think you talked about how, uh...... a joke of Dave Chappelle's hit you, like-

    16. RZRZA36:28

        (laughs)

    17. LFLex Fridman36:29

        ... a long time after this.

    18. RZRZA36:30

        Yeah.

    19. LFLex Fridman36:30

        So, this is kind of like the Quran. It- it, uh, I- I tend to believe that we- we, that human beings can not possibly understand anything as big as th- these ideas, so, um, just, I don't know. D- do you think that, like are you humble in the face of just the- the immensity of it?

    20. RZRZA36:51

        To be honest, yes. I'm humble in the face of the, and you could say the word again, I pronounce words funny, the om- the omnipotence.

    21. LFLex Fridman37:00

        (laughs)

    22. RZRZA37:01

        The omniscience.

    23. LFLex Fridman37:02

        Yeah.

    24. RZRZA37:03

        The magnitude. I'm humble within the face of, in the face of Allah. The problem that we- I may have had was that I wasn't humble within the face of God because it's just a definable thing.

    25. LFLex Fridman37:15

        Mm-hmm.

    26. RZRZA37:16

        And that's why I think a lot of us, they're not saying that, you know, I know when we say God, we're trying to say Allah. (laughs)

    27. LFLex Fridman37:21

        Mm-hmm.

    28. RZRZA37:22

        Like people was saying that, but you're actually not saying the same thing because you're actually putting something beside him. And- and that's the reason why that you could have all, there's many Gods. You can find a whole bunch of them. (laughs) You know what I mean? But you're not gonna find many, there's nobody beside Allah. You know what I mean? Allah is one. So, I know it's a whole thing, but that's, my heart is- is there. I'm humbled by it. I'm at peace with it. Uh, and it doesn't take nothing or demerit anything from myself. That's the beauty of it. It doesn't take nothing from me from being who I feel. So, if I say, if- if somebody walk up, "Yo, peace God." I could take that, because they're telling me that, yo, I'm a man of wisdom, I'm a man of strength, I'm a man of beauty, or some attribute of that. You know what I mean? So, the Wu-Tang, they're the gods of rap. There's wisdom there, there's strength there, there's beauty there.

    29. LFLex Fridman38:19

        (laughs)

    30. RZRZA38:20

        We'll take that.
11. 38:23 – 42:16

    Wu-Tang Clan

    1. RZRZA38:23

    2. LFLex Fridman38:23

       So, Wu-Tang is one of the greatest musical, artistic, philosophical groups ever. Let's look hundreds of years from now when humans or robots or aliens or whatever that's left here, they look back. What do you hope they remember about Wu-Tang? What do you hope the legacy is?

    3. RZRZA38:40

       Well, I, well even if it's thousands of years, I hope we don't get rid of the humans. (laughs) But, you know, look, whatever happens gonna happen, but-

    4. LFLex Fridman38:48

       (laughs)

    5. RZRZA38:49

       ... I think that, uh, my philosophy on it is that we're gonna continue to advance and continue to advance things around us, but I don't see us becoming extinct.

    6. LFLex Fridman39:04

       Well, I mean, the reason I bring up sort of Wu-Tang in that context and this is a special moment in human history. It's like 100 years and we've created all of this music. Just, if you think of all the richness of music that's been created over 100 years-

    7. RZRZA39:18

       Yeah.

    8. LFLex Fridman39:18

       ... it's like, it's not obvious to me that that's not going to stop.

    9. RZRZA39:21

       Right.

    10. LFLex Fridman39:21

        Like, there's a flourishing here. So, it's- it's funny 'cause i- I could see where the- the book of human history is written. There's a chapter on this period of time.

    11. RZRZA39:31

        Right.

    12. LFLex Fridman39:32

        And one of the things we did well is like all the technological innovation with like, with rockets and with the internet, but then there's also the musical innovation and film innovation.

    13. RZRZA39:43

        Right.

    14. LFLex Fridman39:44

        Just so much art that's being created, and Wu-Tang is a huge part of that.

    15. RZRZA39:48

        Yeah.

    16. LFLex Fridman39:48

        So, I just wonder what like, if there's a few sentences written about Wu-Tang (laughs) .

    17. RZRZA39:52

        Mm-hmm.

    18. LFLex Fridman39:53

        It just, uh, uh, makes me wonder-

    19. RZRZA39:55

        Yeah.

    20. LFLex Fridman39:55

        ... how they remember.

    21. RZRZA39:56

        I would hope that people will, no matter, you know, how many years are inspired by us, but I will say, if I could just use Wu-Tang as itself. So, we- we first started off the witty-

    22. LFLex Fridman40:11

        Mm-hmm.

    23. RZRZA40:11

        ... unpredictable talent and natural game, right? Natural game meaning natural wordplay.

    24. LFLex Fridman40:18

        Mm-hmm.

    25. RZRZA40:19

        And then, we went to the wisdom of the universe, the truth of Allah for a nation of God. Wisdom, universal, truth, Allah, nation, God. And it's just like, so let's just go back to a nation of God. Let's just take the last two letters. A nation of wisdom, strength and beauty, right? You know, and I'm gonna go a little political here, but not going political. As we say, we're the greatest country in the world.

    26. LFLex Fridman40:55

        Mm-hmm.

    27. RZRZA40:56

        What makes us the greatest? That should be a question we ask. Is it our wisdom? Is it our strength? Is it our beauty? Now, let's just say, off the easiest answer, you know it's our strength. We got the nukes. (laughs)

    28. LFLex Fridman41:11

        (laughs)

    29. RZRZA41:11

        Nobody could really, you know, between America and Russia. They, why they said we're this, you know, they, that's- that's the argument. Who could beat them?

    30. LFLex Fridman41:18

        Yeah.
12. 42:16 – 49:07

    Bruce Lee

    1. LFLex Fridman42:16

       I gotta talk to you about Bruce Lee.

    2. RZRZA42:19

       (laughs)

    3. LFLex Fridman42:19

       (laughs) Who's Bruce Lee to you? Who is he to the world? What ideas of his were interesting to you? Like what, you know, you talk about like Hendrix and music, Bruce Lee is that in martial arts. He just seems to have-

    4. RZRZA42:32

       Yeah.

    5. LFLex Fridman42:32

       ... changed the game.

    6. RZRZA42:33

       Yeah.... you know, I, I went as b- I guess, I don't know if the word bold is the right word or say, but I went as bold as to say (laughs) that he was a minor prophet. And I got that concept from the Holy Quran, where it says that we send prophets to every nation, every village. We don't let nobody not hear the word in some form.

    7. LFLex Fridman42:54

       Yeah.

    8. RZRZA42:55

       'Cause it won't be fair. And so, if Allah is merciful, even a man who's deaf has to somehow get a sign. I don't know if Moses saw a burning bush. There was nobody else to talk to, so he had to talk to the bush, I don't know.

    9. LFLex Fridman43:09

       Yeah.

    10. RZRZA43:09

        It could have been the bush this way too, right? But-

    11. LFLex Fridman43:11

        Yeah, yeah, that kind of bush, yeah.

    12. RZRZA43:11

        But point being made, it says that there are minor prophets, and I see Bruce Lee as one of them, uh, because what he brought to the world through his, through martial art, uh, was a whole shift in the dynamic of thinking, you know? And that happens when certain, certain entities are born. But he didn't do it only in a, in a physical sense. He was also phil- philosophying in the same process. Uh, and he was also striving to be the best of himself. So, you, you got three things going on. I studied Bruce Lee multiple times. At first, of course, um, when I saw my first Kung Fu movie, it was the fake Br- It was, it wasn't really Bruce Lee. It was a few Green Hornet clips-

    13. LFLex Fridman44:05

        Mm-hmm.

    14. RZRZA44:05

        ... cut together. And then I saw Black Samurai. Then, my following Kung Fu movies was like Fearless Fighters, uh, The Ghostly Face, uh, you know, The Fist Of Double K. But basically, in Fearless Fighters, the lady put the little kid on her back and flew across the ocean, uh, across the lake, right? (laughs) So, Bruce wasn't doing that. And then I went on to Five Deadly Venoms and Spearman and 36 Chambers, and these movies are beautiful, and yet they're all heightened.

    15. LFLex Fridman44:38

        Mm-hmm.

    16. RZRZA44:39

        Bruce, they're heightened beyond doable. You're not gonna-

    17. LFLex Fridman44:43

        Yeah. It's like surreal. They play with this, the world that's not of this world.

    18. RZRZA44:47

        Yeah. Bruce played with this world. So, when I, so by the ti- When, so when I first saw Bruce, I actually didn't think he was as good as these guys. He can't fly. (laughs)

    19. LFLex Fridman45:00

        (laughs)

    20. RZRZA45:00

        He's not flying in the movies, right?

    21. LFLex Fridman45:02

        Yeah.

    22. RZRZA45:02

        Um, but then, when I saw... 'Cause the first one I saw was The Big Boss, which they retitled Fist Of Fury.

    23. LFLex Fridman45:10

        Mm-hmm.

    24. RZRZA45:11

        But then when I saw Chinese Connection, which is, uh, the real Fist Of Fury, right? I saw something different there, and I p- got enamored. And then, of course, Enter the Dragon, right? Just really complete. That's why my first album is Enter the Wu Tang, 36 Chambers of Shaolin. So it's Enter the Dragon and 36 put together, 'cause those are the two epitomes. So, what happened is, you know, that's young me. Then teenage me studies him again. And I realized, "Wow, look at h- Look at his physicality. Look how, how he's really... He's moving for real."

    25. LFLex Fridman45:49

        Mm-hmm.

    26. RZRZA45:50

        And then I studied him again. "Wow, look at what he's saying." Then I studied him again. "Wow, look at what he stands for."

    27. LFLex Fridman45:59

        Which do you like in the realm of martial arts, the, the real or the surreal? Or the dance between the two?

    28. RZRZA46:07

        (laughs) Yeah, I like the dance between the two, because a mo- I mean, a movie, to me, is to entertain you. So, I'm cool with Obi-Wan Kenobi disappearing out of the cloak when Vader strikes him down.

    29. LFLex Fridman46:25

        (laughs)

    30. RZRZA46:25

        And then I'm like, "Yo, what happened?" And he's like, "Run, Luke, run." (laughs)
13. 49:07 – 55:03

    Godfather

    1. RZRZA49:07

    2. LFLex Fridman49:07

       (laughs) But in terms of the real, you mentioned The Godfather, Good and Evil, that's your favorite movie.

    3. RZRZA49:13

       Yeah.

    4. LFLex Fridman49:14

       What makes it great, do you think? The characters, the study of family, of justice, of power? What connects with you?

    5. RZRZA49:21

       Oh, oh, I mean, every one of those themes, uh, connects in the real, um, and it connects in a cinematic way as well. The difference, I think, with me and The Godfather was I seen it during a period of time where my father was absent, and therefore family structure and family values was actually adopted in my family because of that, you know. Me and my brother Devon, we actually, you know, took so much heed to that movie and our family life. And, uh, we kind of, you know, we kind of mimic that family and its structure of somebody has to be the leader of the family, even if it was the younger. Michael was younger than Sonny and Fredro, you know what I mean? But he was worthy. And my brother Devon is older than me, my brother King is older than me, and it's funny, though, sometimes Devon calls King Fredro, and I know King wants to-

    6. LFLex Fridman50:24

       (laughs)

    7. RZRZA50:24

       ... 'cause King is actually a w- he actually was, he could, he's, he could beat our ass.

    8. LFLex Fridman50:28

       Yeah.

    9. RZRZA50:28

       Excuse my language.

    10. LFLex Fridman50:28

        Yeah, yeah.

    11. RZRZA50:29

        Uh, and he-

    12. LFLex Fridman50:30

        But you're Michael.

    13. RZRZA50:31

        Yeah, th- uh, and not, not by choice, like, just by definition of that's what I am.

    14. LFLex Fridman50:38

        Mm-hmm.

    15. RZRZA50:38

        You know what I mean? And, and, uh, it's just a blessing for me to have my older sister, my older brothers, uh, and my younger brothers look to me as a, just as a, as a good light in the family. And, like I said, tho- that movie helped us, my sisters, too. We, you know, the cool thing about my family, I don't know if I share this a lot, it's a big, we all watch these movies together.

    16. LFLex Fridman51:05

        Mm-hmm.

    17. RZRZA51:05

        And so The Eight Diagram, Pole Fighter, Master Killer, Five Deadly Sins, my family knows these movies. It's not just I know them, right? And then you extend it further, my friends know them, right?

    18. LFLex Fridman51:18

        Mm-hmm.

    19. RZRZA51:19

        Too. So there's a language that we all can have, uh, that actually film has informed a communication.

    20. LFLex Fridman51:28

        Mm-hmm.

    21. RZRZA51:29

        So The Godfather, you know, which also is still a fictional story of something, but since it was based in reality, based on something real, and it was human, it wasn't so heightened, I think the purity of it n- resonates. And the purity of it is something that resonates with me. You know, you gotta be, you gotta plan ahead. You know, he didn't wanna deal with the drugs, but that time of business was upon him. It's like, it's almost like, and this is a tough one, like, sometimes when the Muslim brothers come from the Middle East to America and they open up delis, right, they would sell ham.

    22. LFLex Fridman52:14

        (laughs)

    23. RZRZA52:14

        And we would go in there and complain to them-

    24. LFLex Fridman52:16

        (laughs)

    25. RZRZA52:17

        ... and make them, like, they, they, they s- used to get mad at us when we came in-

    26. LFLex Fridman52:20

        Mm-hmm.

    27. RZRZA52:21

        ... but, you know, and that's as a kid. But as a man, I'm like, "Yo, he's here to sell." Now, he still doesn't have to sell to him, like the, like, Vito Corleone didn't want to sell the drugs, okay? He didn't have to do it. He didn't do it.

    28. LFLex Fridman52:34

        Mm-hmm.

    29. RZRZA52:34

        And it cost him some bullets, so eventually somebody in the family ended up doing it.

    30. LFLex Fridman52:40

        Yeah.
14. 55:03 – 59:54

    Veganism

    1. LFLex Fridman55:03

       You've, uh, talked about being vegan and I- I don't think I heard you explain this, because it connects somehow about how you think about life (sighs) . So, you talk about when your family is good, you grow that like circle of empathy, you grow the community. Is that how you think about being vegan? That just the capacity of living beings on earth to suffer, that you just don't wanna add suffering to them?

    2. RZRZA55:33

       Yeah. I mean, you said it clear. It's like nothing, in all reality, I came to a realization that nothing really has to die for me to live.

    3. LFLex Fridman55:45

       Yeah.

    4. RZRZA55:46

       No animal, the plants themselves, right? So, let's just say, you know, you want a steak, which is probably the most, you know- you know, I don't know, the most expensive piece of meat, but let's just say the steak is, you know, top of the line, nice steak.

    5. LFLex Fridman56:01

       Yeah.

    6. RZRZA56:01

       And you eating the steak for the protein to help build your muscle and I don't know if you got it from a cow or a bull, but whether it's the cow or the bull, they grow to about 1,500 pounds, and if it's a bull, it's all mostly muscle and it's only eating grass.

    7. LFLex Fridman56:20

       (laughs) Yeah. Yeah. There's- there's... Yeah. M- It's possible to, uh, both as an athlete and just as a human being to perform well without eating meat. That's something, es- especially in the way we're treating animals to deliver that meat to the plate. I think about that a lot. So, I- I do... I'm a robotics person, AI person.

    8. RZRZA56:41

       Mm-hmm.

    9. LFLex Fridman56:42

       And I think a lot about, I don't know if you think about this kind of stuff, but building AI systems as they become more and more human-like, you start to ask the question of, are we okay, uh, if we give the capacity for AI systems to suffer, first to feel, but then to suffer, um, to hate and to love-

    10. RZRZA57:04

        Yeah.

    11. LFLex Fridman57:04

        ... to feel emotion, how do we deal with that? It starts asking the same questions you ask of animals. Are we- are we okay adding that suffering to the world?

    12. RZRZA57:14

        Right. And I don't think we should add the suffering 'cause it's not necessary. Like when... Look, if it's necessary, right, 'cause we're s- you know, survival and the first law of nature is self-preservation, if you are in the desert and there's nothing else to eat but that lizard-

    13. LFLex Fridman57:31

        Yeah.

    14. RZRZA57:32

        ... yeah, okay, you gotta do what you gotta do.

    15. LFLex Fridman57:33

        Lizard's gotta go.

    16. RZRZA57:34

        Yeah, you gotta go. You gotta do what you gotta do because at the end of the day, man is... When they say man has dominion over these things, his dominion is almost like a caretaker. How... The way we do our dominion, we dominate it, eat it, cook it.

    17. LFLex Fridman57:49

        Yeah.

    18. RZRZA57:49

        Like who- who- who's the first guy that looked at the lobster and was like, "I'm gonna eat this thing"?

    19. LFLex Fridman57:55

        Yeah.

    20. RZRZA57:56

        You know what I mean? Like, it's- it's... First of all, it's hard to eat it.

    21. LFLex Fridman57:58

        Yeah.

    22. RZRZA57:59

        You gotta go through a process to get that. A crab, I remember we used to eat crabs when we was kids and I didn't know why I was always getting itchy throats and all that, uh, you know, you're a kid, you don't know, you just eat. But at the end of the day, a crab didn't provide no more than a finger worth of meat maybe.

    23. LFLex Fridman58:14

        Yeah, yeah.

    24. RZRZA58:15

        And it was hell getting that stink, (laughs) getting it out 'cause like it's not worth it-

    25. LFLex Fridman58:20

        Yeah.

    26. RZRZA58:20

        ... in all reality. You could have gave me a, you could have gave me a banana and did better for my body and my appetite and my f- being fulfilled as full. Like, look- look at the blessings of- of- of- of life, right? It's... If you take a seed or you get a apple and you eat it (gobbling sound) in that apple is multiple seeds in it. If you plant that seed, it'll give you a whole tree with a whole bunch of apples with all multiple seeds.

    27. LFLex Fridman58:56

        Mm-hmm.

    28. RZRZA58:56

        But if you kill a fish, it can't reproduce, it's done.

    29. LFLex Fridman59:01

        Yeah.

    30. RZRZA59:02

        If you kill a cat... It's done. It's not- it's nothing coming back. But when you deal with the plants, even after you eat the apple and then you defecate, your defecation is what feeds the ground-
15. 59:54 – 1:04:08

    AI

    1. LFLex Fridman59:54

       it.

    2. RZRZA59:54

       Let me ask you a question. I know you're asking me the questions, but I just want to talk a little bit about the AI, and you said something about trying to put the emotion in it.

    3. LFLex Fridman1:00:02

       Yeah.

    4. RZRZA1:00:03

       Right? Um, so do we... So, are you thinking there's an algorithm for emotion?

    5. LFLex Fridman1:00:12

       Yes. But I think emotion isn't something that there's a algorithm for for a particular system. We create emotions together. So, emotion is something, like this conversation, it's- it's like magic we create together. So, um, I have, I've worked with quite a few robots of, uh, a very simple version of that. I've had, you know, Roomba vacuum cleaners.

    6. RZRZA1:00:35

       Mm-hmm.

    7. LFLex Fridman1:00:35

       They're... I've had them make different sounds and one of them is like screaming in pain, like lightly. And just having them do that when you kick them or when they run into stuff, immediately I start to feel something for that.

    8. RZRZA1:00:47

       Right. So, the emotion, okay, so the emotion you're saying is...... impulse back on the human.

    9. LFLex Fridman1:00:53

       Yeah.

    10. RZRZA1:00:53

        But I'm asking do you think there's an algorithm for the emotion to be impulsed from machine to machine?

    11. LFLex Fridman1:00:59

        Yeah. That, that's a really good way to ask it. Um, it's, it's difficult, because I think ultimately I only know how to exist in the human world.

    12. RZRZA1:01:09

        Okay.

    13. LFLex Fridman1:01:09

        So, it's like, it's the question of if a tree falls in the forest and nobody's there to see it, does it still fall? I, I still think that ultimately machines will have to, uh, show emotion to other humans, and that's when it becomes real.

    14. RZRZA1:01:24

        I've been thinking about this a lot too. And, uh, I just... Okay.

    15. LFLex Fridman1:01:31

        (laughs)

    16. RZRZA1:01:31

        And I'll, I'll come at you with this because I've been thinking about this, and this is your, your field.

    17. LFLex Fridman1:01:34

        Yeah.

    18. RZRZA1:01:36

        Well, do you think emotion is wave? Like light is wave? And... Or do you think it's particle?

    19. LFLex Fridman1:01:44

        Exhales So, emotion is just a small... It's like a shadow of something bigger, and I think that bigger thing is consciousness. So, emotion is just-

    20. RZRZA1:01:53

        So, you don't know if it's a wave or a particle? You, I mean, y'all haven't, y'all haven't thought about that?

    21. LFLex Fridman1:01:59

        I have thought about it, whether it's there's something like, um, whether consciousness or emotion is a law of physics. Like if it's that-

    22. RZRZA1:02:07

        Yeah.

    23. LFLex Fridman1:02:07

        ... fundamental to the universe.

    24. RZRZA1:02:08

        I had a lyric, I had a lyric, I had a lyric that said this.

    25. LFLex Fridman1:02:12

        (laughs)

    26. RZRZA1:02:12

        I- i- it comes out, uh... They did this documentary about the planet, and they gave, I, I wrote a song. It's called The World of Confusion.

    27. LFLex Fridman1:02:18

        Uh-huh.

    28. RZRZA1:02:19

        And, uh, I'll try to paraphrase the lyric, but... "In the world of the confusion where there's so much illusions, we suck the blood from the planet. Now it needs a transfusion and a redistribution of wealth, of health, and wealth of self, and a deeper understanding about mental health. The doctor prescribed the physical solution. The psychiatrist wants to build a bigger institution. But neither have the solution or the equation to make an instrument to measure the weight of the hate vibration. What is the weight of hate? Is it heavier than the weight of love? Is it heavier than the weight of lead inside of a slug, which is 10 milligrams is all it takes to kill a man?" But anyways, they're not going from there. But-

    29. LFLex Fridman1:03:20

        Damn, that is good.

    30. RZRZA1:03:21

        But the question... You see the question there?
16. 1:04:08 – 1:07:26

    Chess

    1. RZRZA1:04:08

    2. LFLex Fridman1:04:08

       Mm-hmm.

    3. RZRZA1:04:08

       Because, you know, when you think about quantum, right? As long as you say that there's an uncertainty, and you have me believe there's an uncertainty, then there's an uncertainty. But if there's not an uncertainty, what happens? So, I'm only saying that it's not s- that's... 'Cause you look at quantum computers, they're gonna give you the O, the 1, the 1, the O. They're gonna get... they're gonna take two things and make it eight things, and by the time-

    4. LFLex Fridman1:04:37

       Mm-hmm.

    5. RZRZA1:04:37

       ... you multiply four of those things together, it's like this chess board, right?

    6. LFLex Fridman1:04:40

       Mm-hmm.

    7. RZRZA1:04:41

       The moves goes into the millions.

    8. LFLex Fridman1:04:43

       Mm-hmm.

    9. RZRZA1:04:44

       But the thing that's introduced is the uncertainty, right?

    10. LFLex Fridman1:04:50

        Mm-hmm.

    11. RZRZA1:04:51

        You gonna make a move? This, you know this already, right?

    12. LFLex Fridman1:05:00

        Mm-hmm.

    13. RZRZA1:05:01

        Because this has been played a thousand times. But sooner or later, something uncertain is gonna come in, or make the next move.

    14. LFLex Fridman1:05:14

        I like the weight of these.

    15. RZRZA1:05:15

        (laughs) I know.

    16. LFLex Fridman1:05:15

        They add, they add the certainty. I think, just like Wu Tang, unpredictable. That, there's something about, uh, us humans that really doesn't like everything to be fully predictable. I mean, chess, too, is, uh, perfectly solvable. There's nothing unpredictable about chess.

    17. RZRZA1:05:32

        Right. Well, I could agree to that because Bobby Fischer said in one of his books, act- which I actually, I love what he said. He said, "Every game of chess is a draw."

    18. LFLex Fridman1:05:47

        (laughs) Yeah.

    19. RZRZA1:05:49

        The only way somebody win is when one of us makes a mistake.

    20. LFLex Fridman1:05:53

        (laughs)

    21. RZRZA1:05:54

        I mean, it do, it doesn't get any better than that. (laughs)

    22. LFLex Fridman1:05:56

        Yeah, it doesn't. What, what is chess... Like how do you think about chess? What's at the core of your interest in chess? Do you see kung fu, music, film, all of it, life, all just living through chess?

    23. RZRZA1:06:09

        Yeah, see, I, I... It's the, it's the most stimulating passage of time for me that's also s- it's like it's a pastime that stimulates my mind, my music, my thoughts about life at the same time. So, while some pastimes is like... Say baseball is watched as a pastime.

    24. LFLex Fridman1:06:30

        Mm-hmm.

    25. RZRZA1:06:30

        And baseball can stimulate you depending on how you look at it, right?

    26. LFLex Fridman1:06:33

        (laughs)

    27. RZRZA1:06:33

        But most likely, you're not (laughs) gonna get this much brain activation, this much calculation, and this much thinking about yourself in a game of baseball. Be... I mean, the player maybe, but not the viewer. Chess is something that I can engage into. And even though it's, it's a pastime...... is giving me all the stimulation of real time in my life.

    28. LFLex Fridman1:06:59

        It's funny, 'cause it's also, uh... It's a funny game, 'cause it's connected through c- centuries of play. Just some of the most interesting people in the history of the world have played this game.

    29. RZRZA1:07:11

        Mm-hmm.

    30. LFLex Fridman1:07:11

        And have struggled w- with whatever, have projected their struggles onto the chess board and thought through... And then nations have fought over the chess board.
17. 1:07:26 – 1:13:22

    American Gangster

    1. RZRZA1:07:26

       Union.

    2. LFLex Fridman1:07:26

       Yeah. I got a, uh... Before I lose track of it, when we were talking about The Godfather, you were in American Gangster, great film. Uh, you said it's one of your favorites too. What, um... You were in it with Denzel Washington, what makes that movie meaningful to you? What- what um... (sighs) What was it like making that movie? 'Cause it's a great, great American film.

    3. RZRZA1:07:48

       It was... That was a great American film. It was so many things in that film. Being a part of that film was probably a blessing and a treasure, uh, 'cause even if I, even if I wasn't a part of it, uh, it just caught s- such great filmmaking and- and to me a- a really cool great story. Um, the thing that I love about it the most really is the process of it, you know-

    4. LFLex Fridman1:08:18

       Which part of the process?

    5. RZRZA1:08:19

       ... I wouldn't, I wouldn't have known the process if I wasn't part of it. So as a film enjoy-... It's a great film, but even the process of making it was like high level education for me on multiple levels. I'm working with Ridley Scott-

    6. LFLex Fridman1:08:34

       Mm-hmm.

    7. RZRZA1:08:35

       ... whi- which is... And this is a bold statement if I say this here, 'cause I got a lot of friends that's gonna probably-

    8. LFLex Fridman1:08:40

       (laughs)

    9. RZRZA1:08:41

       But he's probably the best living director. Because watching him allowed me to understand a principle that I've coined to him, and I don't know if people used it yet, called multi-vision.

    10. LFLex Fridman1:08:58

        Mm-hmm.

    11. RZRZA1:09:00

        He seems to have the capacity to see eight things at one time. I heard on Robin Hood he had 18 cameras.

    12. LFLex Fridman1:09:11

        (laughs)

    13. RZRZA1:09:11

        I wasn't there for that.

    14. LFLex Fridman1:09:13

        And you think he keeps 'em all in his mind just sei-

    15. RZRZA1:09:15

        I seen him do it when he went to the monitors with the video playback guy.

    16. LFLex Fridman1:09:21

        Yeah.

    17. RZRZA1:09:22

        I seen him bring everything back to- to a point, but nothing was the same on the frame.

    18. LFLex Fridman1:09:28

        Mm-hmm.

    19. RZRZA1:09:30

        He was already there.

    20. LFLex Fridman1:09:31

        Yeah.

    21. RZRZA1:09:32

        And he knew if he had what it was or not.

    22. LFLex Fridman1:09:36

        Yeah.

    23. RZRZA1:09:36

        And he placed the cameras there be-... And he, and he- he- he saw it, like, in his own way and I peeped it. (laughs)

    24. LFLex Fridman1:09:46

        (laughs)

    25. RZRZA1:09:46

        You know, and I peep this.

    26. LFLex Fridman1:09:47

        Yeah.

    27. RZRZA1:09:47

        And I said, "Yo..." And I just, you know, humbly asked him, he's like... He was gracious enough to speak to me and talk to me, uh, and- and confirm-

    28. LFLex Fridman1:09:57

        Yeah.

    29. RZRZA1:09:57

        ... of what I thought (laughs) I saw.

    30. LFLex Fridman1:09:59

        He confirmed it?
18. 1:13:22 – 1:19:51

    Creativity

    1. LFLex Fridman1:13:22

       you, uh, you said that you were always an old soul and see the world as if you're 200 years old, I like this line-

    2. RZRZA1:13:29

       (laughs)

    3. LFLex Fridman1:13:29

       ... because your creative vision allows you to see the final piece you've created, uh, or you're creating very quickly, quicker than others. Um, I- I heard that as if you've almost, like, lived many lives, so you have this experience that allows you to see the vision. So let me ask you on creativity, where does this creativity behind RZA come from? This, both musically and film-wise?

    4. RZRZA1:13:54

       That I don't, I don't know if I have the answer to that one, right?

    5. LFLex Fridman1:13:56

       (laughs)

    6. RZRZA1:13:56

       Where does it c- no, for seriously, where does it come from? Only thing I could say about that is that for some reason, it f- it seems endless. And that's peculiar when I think about it myself because I was taught a lot of things from the GZA, you know. Uh, he introduced me to mathematics. He introduced me to hip hop itself, to breakdancing. You know, I got other cousins that introduced me to graffiti, uh, cousins that introduced me to DJing. Like, I realized that I had a lot of introductions, but the GZA definitely, you know, my older cousin gave me a lot of early inspirations. And not saying that he's not creative, as creative as he was then or now, I just didn't s- I, like, the wide span of creativity, I don't see him doing that, right? And I don't see my cou- you know, the cousins that taught me how to DJ, I didn't see them move from DJing to making the beats.

    7. LFLex Fridman1:15:11

       Mm-hmm.

    8. RZRZA1:15:12

       You know? My cousin that, uh, you know, w- who actually got me into instruments, I didn't see him l- leave funk and rock. He didn't, he didn't go, like, I'm orchestra composing now.

    9. LFLex Fridman1:15:26

       Yeah.

    10. RZRZA1:15:27

        So-

    11. LFLex Fridman1:15:28

        (laughs)

    12. RZRZA1:15:29

        ... so I just said to myself, I just accept myself as a artist, as a creative artist, that's what I am. I don't, I got, that, I have to accept that. Now, where it comes from, I don't know, if I was to s- try to, try to say where it comes from, like, "Hey, give a, give me, give me, give me some type of answer."

    13. LFLex Fridman1:15:48

        Mm-hmm.

    14. RZRZA1:15:48

        I would say, "From life itself."

    15. LFLex Fridman1:15:50

        But what does it feel like? Because you mentioned during this pandemic, for example, for some reason, more came to you in terms of writing. And so do you feel like you're just receiving signals from elsewhere or-

    16. RZRZA1:16:02

        (laughs)

    17. LFLex Fridman1:16:02

        ... like, wh- do you, do you feel like it's hard work or you're just waiting?

    18. RZRZA1:16:07

        Wow. It's not even wait nor is it hard work. It's almost like, I said in one of my other lyrics, this is for the emcee part of it, I say, "Emceeing to me is easy as breathing."

    19. LFLex Fridman1:16:19

        So it's like breathing?

    20. RZRZA1:16:20

        Yeah. It's just like... In fact, this actually was a scientific, scientific thing I read about that, and now that you made me, and now that you said that. Have you heard this? I know you've had to hear this.

    21. LFLex Fridman1:16:30

        No.

    22. RZRZA1:16:30

        They say that, you know, the atoms in our atmosphere, which seem to be infinite in number, are not infinite in the space they occupy.

    23. LFLex Fridman1:16:43

        Mm-hmm.

    24. RZRZA1:16:44

        Right? 'Cause they in our atmosphere.

    25. LFLex Fridman1:16:46

        Mm-hmm.

    26. RZRZA1:16:48

        And so there's a chance that at least one million atoms that you breathe in your life was breathed by Galileo.

    27. LFLex Fridman1:16:57

        Mm-hmm.

    28. RZRZA1:16:58

        You heard this before, right?

    29. LFLex Fridman1:16:59

        Yeah. Right.

    30. RZRZA1:17:00

        Okay.
19. 1:19:51 – 1:23:14

    Advice for young people

    1. LFLex Fridman1:19:51

       In, uh, Tao of Wu, you write something about confusion which I really like. "Confusion is a gift from God. Those times when you feel most desperate for a solution, sit, wait. The information will become clear. The confusion is there to guide you. Seek detachment and become the producer of your life." So, I gotta ask you, advice. If, uh, if a young person today in high school, college is looking for some advice, what advice could you give them to be a producer of a life they can be proud of?

    2. RZRZA1:20:26

       Read the Tao of Wu. (laughs)

    3. LFLex Fridman1:20:27

       (laughs) Let's start with the Wu Tang Manual first.

    4. RZRZA1:20:31

       Yeah. No, you could do that second.

    5. LFLex Fridman1:20:33

       Second?

    6. RZRZA1:20:34

       Yeah.

    7. LFLex Fridman1:20:34

       All right.

    8. RZRZA1:20:34

       I think you could read the Tao of Wu first and then do the Manual.

    9. LFLex Fridman1:20:37

       All right.

    10. RZRZA1:20:37

        Because the Manual is act- not, not to put the two books against each other, but the Manual is talking about things that is so deeply connected to the music and the people, and the Tao of Wu goes beyo- goes beyond that. So, I would actually start there which is not normally what I prescrib- I always tell people, "Start at knowledge, then go to wisdom."

    11. LFLex Fridman1:20:59

        Yeah.

    12. RZRZA1:21:00

        But since the Tao-

    13. LFLex Fridman1:21:01

        Skip ahead to the wisdom, I like it.

    14. RZRZA1:21:02

        Yeah, yeah. I think for the, for the, for a young man in h- uh, high school-

    15. LFLex Fridman1:21:05

        Yeah.

    16. RZRZA1:21:06

        ... go to the Tao of Wu and then go back. It's just like sometimes, uh, you know, you have, you know, like my, my son's generation, they had to watch the oth- the, the second round of Star Wars. (laughs)

    17. LFLex Fridman1:21:17

        Yeah. (laughs)

    18. RZRZA1:21:18

        And then go back, you know what I mean? This generation's watching The Force Awakens and then they go back, yeah.

    19. LFLex Fridman1:21:24

        But what, um ... Because if you just look at your life as an example, that's one heck of a life. There's very few lives like it. You've created some of the most incredible things artistically in this world. Like, if somebody, you talk about that like one million, right, at the, at the corner of the table. If somebody wants, strives, dreams to become one of those-

    20. RZRZA1:21:48

        Right.

    21. LFLex Fridman1:21:48

        ... how, how do they do it?

    22. RZRZA1:21:50

        Well, the beautiful thing is that there are footprints left by those who've done it, you know? And the best way is to study that, to study those who've already done what you wanna do. You know, we, you know, we live on a civilization, we say this is the greatest country in the world, but our seal is a pyramid with an eye on it.

    23. LFLex Fridman1:22:17

        (laughs)

    24. RZRZA1:22:17

        You know what I mean? Because they did it before. And they, you know, they, they may have failed for some reason or something happens, but it was just a strong enough example, right, to take us further. You know, Elon Musk is sitting h- here trying to do better than what the rocket builders did before. He's not the first one to build a rocket.

    25. LFLex Fridman1:22:35

        Mm-hmm.

    26. RZRZA1:22:36

        He's not the first guy to think of the electric car. He's doing it better, he's advancing it to the point that whoever picks up after him, maybe they'll get to that flying car.

    27. LFLex Fridman1:22:47

        Mm-hmm.

    28. RZRZA1:22:47

        So, that's the beauty. Uh, there's a good verse. I love finding verses to say things to confirm because this way people could take it verbally, physically and then maybe even spiritually. But Krishna said, said a verse, he said, "The fastest way to heaven is by spending time or studying the wise people." Meaning the wise people who is living and those who lived before you.

    29. LFLex Fridman1:23:13

        Study the masters.

20. 1:23:14 – 1:26:13

    Meaning of life

    1. LFLex Fridman1:23:14

    2. RZRZA1:23:14

       Yep.

    3. LFLex Fridman1:23:14

       Let me ask you a big, perhaps ridiculous question, but give it a shot. What is the meaning of this whole thing? What's the meaning of life?

    4. RZRZA1:23:22

       Hmm. Big question. Uh, I'm not gonna rush into the answer. (laughs) I g- I'm gonna give you somebody else answer first and I'll give you my answer. I remember asking this in a, you know, I don't know, I was 15, 16 years old and one of the brothers, you know, we were studying in mathematics and the letter I itself was, means I, Islam. I, meaning the individual, right, be in a total accord with Islam. And let me finish this. Then they took the word Islam and they defined it as Islam is an Arabic word for peace. Then they said peace is the absence of confusion. Okay? So, then they took, I mean, this, this is something that really hit me when I was, and I never forgot it and I, I'm gonna decipher it ............................ But then they took the word Islam and they broke it down by the letter into a acronym, like casual everything around me.

    5. LFLex Fridman1:24:36

       Mm-hmm.

    6. RZRZA1:24:37

       And, uh, they broke it down to I stimulate light and matter. And I was like-

    7. LFLex Fridman1:24:46

       (laughs)

    8. RZRZA1:24:48

       Because what hit me-

    9. LFLex Fridman1:24:49

       Damn.

    10. RZRZA1:24:49

        ... is that if you're not here-

    11. LFLex Fridman1:24:50

        Mm-hmm.

    12. RZRZA1:24:52

        ... then light and matter don't exist to you.

    13. LFLex Fridman1:24:53

        Mm-hmm.

    14. RZRZA1:24:55

        So you're stimulating it.

    15. LFLex Fridman1:24:56

        Mm-hmm.

    16. RZRZA1:24:57

        Or it ain't here for you.

    17. LFLex Fridman1:24:58

        Mm-hmm.

    18. RZRZA1:24:59

        So anyway, taking all that, so then I said, you know, "So what's the meaning of life?" And the brother just said, "Love Islam forever." (laughs)

    19. LFLex Fridman1:25:08

        (laughs)

    20. RZRZA1:25:10

        Right?

    21. LFLex Fridman1:25:10

        Yeah.

    22. RZRZA1:25:10

        People want to know, and that's like I, I ain't saying the religious point of it, I'm just saying-

    23. LFLex Fridman1:25:13

        Yeah.

    24. RZRZA1:25:13

        ... all those other elements I just spoke about in front of it-

    25. LFLex Fridman1:25:15

        I stimulate light and matter.

    26. RZRZA1:25:17

        Yeah.

    27. LFLex Fridman1:25:18

        I love that. That's powerful.

    28. RZRZA1:25:19

        Yeah. And let me give you my definition of life. I think life is that simply for each and every one of us to add onto it.

    29. LFLex Fridman1:25:33

        Build.

    30. RZRZA1:25:34

        Yeah.

Episode duration: 1:26:19