Lex Fridman PodcastSarma Melngailis: Bad Vegan, Fraud, Prison, and Sociopathy | Lex Fridman Podcast #288
EVERY SPOKEN WORD
150 min read · 30,003 words- 0:00 – 1:30
Introduction
- SMSarma Melngailis
He made me think that, you know, everything was gonna be reversed and okay, and anybody that money was borrowed from, they would get it back, you know, maybe tenfold. And so it was this weird situation of having, like, one foot in his reality and potentially believing the things he was saying, or even, over time, wanting to believe them more and more because the alternative was so... The alternative was worse. The alternative was like... Was increasingly a bigger and bigger nightmare.
- LFLex Fridman
The following is a conversation with Sarma Melngailus, a chef and restaurateur who was the subject of the Netflix documentary Bad Vegan: Fame, Fraud, and Fugitives, that documents the rise and fall of her vegan raw food restaurants in New York City, that ended in what she called a road trip from hell, being arrested in Tennessee or pleading guilty for stealing over two million dollars and serving four months at Rikers Island Jail. Sarma disputes the veracity of the documentary and its conclusions, saying that she was misrepresented. So I wanted to talk to her to get the full story and to seek understanding of who she is as a human being, the good and the bad. This is the Lex Fridman Podcast. To support it, please check out our sponsors in the description, and now, dear friends, here's Sarma Melngailus.
- 1:30 – 6:33
Childhood
- LFLex Fridman
You've said that you did a lot of reading when you were growing up, and you mentioned Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas by Hunter S. Thompson. So from the reading you've done in those early days, how did you see the world? Was it to you a beautiful place or a cruel place?
- SMSarma Melngailis
I don't think I thought about the world.
- LFLex Fridman
You were focused on family? Just basic day-to-day life?
- SMSarma Melngailis
I think I was focused on day-to-day. I had an awareness of not fitting in, but I think back then it felt like something was wrong versus some people are just that way. And speaking of books, I read a book called, um, Party of One by a woman named Anneli Rufus that somebody gave me and suggested I read, and that helped a lot. That was, that was one book that made me feel like... It made me understand things from the past that I hadn't understood before, specifically kind of feeling out of place even among my family, which is where you're not supposed to feel out of place.
- LFLex Fridman
Yeah, I'm not sure where I saw it, but I think you mentioned that you were a bit of a loner, and I also think I saw somewhere pictures of you with, uh, with green hair in high school and, and, and a wild haircut. What was that about? Is that... Was that real? Am I just imagining things?
- SMSarma Melngailis
No, you're not imagining it. It's strange because I was kind of a, a loner, so it'd be strange to do something that calls so much attention to yourself.
- LFLex Fridman
(laughs)
- SMSarma Melngailis
Because back then, I mean, I grew up in a suburb of Boston, um, in Newton, and a- anybody that was there around that time probably if you said, you know, that girl with green hair or blue hair, it was blue most of the time, they would remember, like, seeing me walking down the street because it stood out like crazy, especially back then. Now it wouldn't stand out so much, but back then it really stood out. So I was trying to think about why I did that when-
- LFLex Fridman
(laughs)
- SMSarma Melngailis
... I, I was kind of a... Kind of shy and on the one hand wouldn't want to bring attention to myself, but I did something that did, um, and it wasn't... My family, to their credit, they were fine with it, so it wasn't a rebellion against them or anything like that. They were fine with it. I don't think they loved it, but...
- LFLex Fridman
Your dad was a physicist at MIT.
- SMSarma Melngailis
Yes.
- LFLex Fridman
So (laughs) uh, so he, he was, he was cool with your, with your green hair and your rebellion. That's just the way of life.
- SMSarma Melngailis
He was fine with the green hair, but I think in some ways maybe they had to be fine with it because I didn't cause problems otherwise and I got good grades in school. I was a very low maintenance child, I think.
- LFLex Fridman
(laughs)
- SMSarma Melngailis
Pretty low maintenance.
- LFLex Fridman
Even with the green hair.
- SMSarma Melngailis
Yeah.
- LFLex Fridman
Uh, so Hunter S. Thompson, uh, wrote a lot of good stuff.
- SMSarma Melngailis
Mm-hmm.
- LFLex Fridman
Uh, he has a lot of just brilliant quotes, a lot of brilliant lines. Um, so one of the ones I love is, "Life should not be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well-preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside in a cloud of smoke, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming, 'Wow! What a ride!'" What do you think about that? Is that good life advice from Hunter S. Thompson?
- SMSarma Melngailis
I think so.
- LFLex Fridman
(laughs)
- SMSarma Melngailis
(laughs) I, he... I think he followed it, right? Somewhere, um, I heard recently what he consumed in a day.
- LFLex Fridman
Yeah.
- SMSarma Melngailis
And it was kind of astonishing. It's funny, I... When I was in college, there were always really interesting people coming through, speakers and whatnot, and I tended to not go to events and whatnot, but in the four years I was there, the... I mean, really interesting people came through and gave talks, you know, I don't know, just a lot of famous people, and, um. But then one day Hunter S. Thompson came to speak and-
- LFLex Fridman
Oh, really?
- SMSarma Melngailis
... that was the only one I attended.
- LFLex Fridman
Oh, wow.
- SMSarma Melngailis
That was the only interesting person who came to speak on the campus that I attended was Hunter S. Thompson, and he had a... You know, he had a glass of whatever it was, whiskey, and I don't remember a whole lot about it, but it was (laughs) it was entertaining.
- 6:33 – 17:03
Films
- SMSarma Melngailis
Um...
- LFLex Fridman
So for people who haven't watched it, it, there's a guy named Leon, played by Jean Reno. There's a, um, a young girl, I think, I don't know, 13, 14, Matilda, played by Natalie Portman, and she's abused. She has a really hard life. Her parents are, spoiler alert, uh, murdered, and then she finds protection under this, um, fella, uh, Leon, who, uh, also happens to be a professional as- assassin. And he is also kind of a Forrest Gump type character, like he's a really simple-
- SMSarma Melngailis
Yeah.
- LFLex Fridman
... simple human. Uh, he almost, he seems to be, like, the immature one, or, like, rather the one who's young, and she seems to have a wisdom far beyond her age because of the hard life she had to live through, and then, and they're here huddling together from the cr- cruelty of the world, um, and, and finding connection.
- SMSarma Melngailis
Yeah, I think it's one of those films where there's so many interesting things about it, but pro- you know, I'm sure, one of them is just the contradiction of him being, you know, a caring person and reluctant to get attached to her. You know, he tries to, I think he knows he's g- he's very reluctant to get attached to her in the beginning, um, and so you see all of his humanity, but yet he's also an assassin that kills people, so, um, that's interesting, and I think probably a psychoanalyst would have a field day with why I like that movie so much.
- LFLex Fridman
(laughs)
- SMSarma Melngailis
Um, and I haven't necess- I haven't gone there myself, but there's something, I think, about she, even in the brief part that depicts her in the beginning, it seems clear that she's sort of out of place in her family, um, and, um, and then, yeah, there's all kinds of interesting things about their relationship along the way.
- LFLex Fridman
What I like about that movie, and I had to think about it recently 'cause I read stuff about it that bothered me, or it bothered me, the fact that I haven't really thought about it before. For people who haven't watched the movie, so here's a young, underage girl who kinda comes on to him. First of all, I think she actually just doesn't know what, like, familial love is-
- SMSarma Melngailis
Mm-hmm.
- LFLex Fridman
... so this is the only way she knows how to e- express love, that's one. And two is, you know, a lot of bad people in this world would take advantage of that, right? And the fact that, um, she finally met a human being who doesn't, and is just there to protect her, that's a real sort of, um, I don't know, a powerful statement of what it means to be sort of like a father figure, I suppose, a protector. So that, that, that to me, I, I, I love the idea of being sort of the, the protector, that there's something, like, uh, something worthwhile in this world to protect amidst all the cruelty that's all around. That's, that's a beautiful kinda... You're basically saving this young human's, or you're repairing this young human's path to love, to real love in life, because it, it, that idea of love was destroyed for her, just family, everything is, is-
- SMSarma Melngailis
Mm-hmm.
- LFLex Fridman
... everything is, uh, (sighs) s- sort of, uh, everything around her is broken, and he's kind of repairing it by reestablishing what that kind of love can be. I don't know.
- SMSarma Melngailis
And the plant.
- LFLex Fridman
And the plant.
- SMSarma Melngailis
That, that they
- NANarrator
(laughs)
- SMSarma Melngailis
... you know, they save the plant also.
- LFLex Fridman
(laughs) Well, there's also just the simple, the simplicity of the film, just from a cinematic perspective, is beautiful. The music, the way it looks, the minimalism.
- SMSarma Melngailis
Even the violence was beautiful.
- LFLex Fridman
Yeah, the violence. It was over the top and, uh, also the, the bad guy, the bad cop, played by, um, Gary Oldman-
- SMSarma Melngailis
Yeah, he was amazing.
- LFLex Fridman
... I think he was listening to Beethoven or something like that-
- SMSarma Melngailis
Yeah. (laughs)
- LFLex Fridman
... and he'd taken some sort of pills and drugs of some kind and, uh, so there was a kinda, like a, like a, like it's part of the orchestra, like the violence was part of the, of some kind of musical creation. (laughs)
- SMSarma Melngailis
Yeah, it's interesting 'cause I, I turn away from violence or films usually that have violence or TV or anything that has that sort of, um, element to it except in certain cases where, um...
- LFLex Fridman
Where the violence is beautiful?
- SMSarma Melngailis
Yeah, yeah. Or, um, did you see the movie True Romance?
- LFLex Fridman
Uh, yes, that's pro-
- SMSarma Melngailis
That's my second favorite movie.
- LFLex Fridman
Okay. That's probably my favorite movie, yeah.
- 17:03 – 26:07
Gifts
- LFLex Fridman
top three. Uh, you, you brought me some books, some bread and books.
- SMSarma Melngailis
Yeah.
- LFLex Fridman
Some Russian bread, Russian-inspired bread.
- SMSarma Melngailis
Yeah. I mean, it's Latvian, but it's similar to-
- LFLex Fridman
Close enough.
- SMSarma Melngailis
... similar to what's made in Russia, and it's made at a Russian bakery-
- LFLex Fridman
That's where your dad is from, right?
- SMSarma Melngailis
My dad is from Latvia. Yeah.
- LFLex Fridman
So you got me some books. Beautiful Ruins.
- SMSarma Melngailis
Yeah, and if you never read them, who cares? That's totally fine. You know, people give you books and then you feel like you just-
- LFLex Fridman
I don't-
- SMSarma Melngailis
... you're, you sort of feel like
- LFLex Fridman
... I, I see this as... We'll, we'll talk about this.
- SMSarma Melngailis
Okay.
- LFLex Fridman
This is part therapy session. I don't feel the need to, to satisfy people's happiness.
- SMSarma Melngailis
That's a good thing.
- LFLex Fridman
Okay, so... But they, it could also be a, um, an opportunity to experience something I never otherwise would've. So, Beautiful Ruins.
- SMSarma Melngailis
It's a book that made me laugh and cry, and it's just a happy story. And for some reason, I don't know exactly why, but for some reason, um, when you asked me to come, for s- it just... I thought, "Oh, I'm gonna bring a copy of that book."
- LFLex Fridman
That's... You just felt-
- SMSarma Melngailis
Yes.
- LFLex Fridman
It came, a voice told you.
- SMSarma Melngailis
Yeah.
- LFLex Fridman
There's others. Darkness Visible.
- SMSarma Melngailis
These are more-
- LFLex Fridman
A Memoir of Madness. Compelling, harrowing, a vivid portrait of a-... debilitating disorder, it offers the solace of shared experience." The New York Times.
- SMSarma Melngailis
This is-
- LFLex Fridman
William Styron.
- SMSarma Melngailis
... there's a little bit about this book that reminds me of, um, the Karl Deisseroth-
- LFLex Fridman
Yeah.
- SMSarma Melngailis
... book because he writes about his own condition in, um... I mean, he's an amazing writer, so he writes about it in this beautiful way and, oddly enough, in some ways, it's kind of delightful. So it's not at all a depressing book, at least I didn't find it depressing at all, I don't think it is. Um, but he writes about his own experience with depression in such a beautiful way. Um, my own copy is full of underlines. Um, in the-
- 26:07 – 32:18
Favorite food creations
- LFLex Fridman
So, uh, you wrote that the documentary about you called Bad Vegan: Fame, Fraud, Fugitives, is not a documentary. It got some things right, some things wrong, and some were, quote, "Disturbingly misleading." So let's go through and get things right today. Um, first, can I give you a, a whirlwind summary, the way I, I understand it?
- SMSarma Melngailis
Yeah.
- LFLex Fridman
And also for context of people. So 2004, you, Matthew Kenney, and Jeffrey Chodorow opened Pure Foods & Wine in New York City. Did I say their names correctly?
- SMSarma Melngailis
Pure Food & Wine.
- LFLex Fridman
No, their names.
- SMSarma Melngailis
Oh, theirs. (laughs) Who... Well, yeah. Matthew Kenney and Jeffrey Chodorow, yeah.
- LFLex Fridman
Yeah. So it's... Uh, and I'll ask you about what it takes to, to, to, to launch and run a restaurant in New York City. That's a fascinating story in itself. So it's an upscale raw food restaurant. All right, that's 2004. 2007, you open One Lucky Duck Juice & Takeaway, and then second and third locations in 2009 and '14. Uh, all of those things close in, uh, 2016. Uh, '15, '16. '15 and '16, okay. All right, 2009, Jeffrey lends you $2.1 million to buy the business outright, and Matthew is out.
- SMSarma Melngailis
Matthew was out earlier than that, and then time passed, time passed, and I had, um... What was complicated is I had started the One Lucky Duck brand on my own. Um-
- LFLex Fridman
At first it was a dot-com that was doing like delivery? Or no-
- SMSarma Melngailis
It was a, it was a dot-com where people could order ingredients and things, and all of the products that we made and packaged. So we made a bunch of cookies and snacks and things that were, I think, different and, if I may say so myself, better than other, um-
- LFLex Fridman
Strong words.
- SMSarma Melngailis
... products out there.
- LFLex Fridman
Talk, talking trash already-
- SMSarma Melngailis
Yeah, but then-
- LFLex Fridman
... about the cookies. (laughs)
- SMSarma Melngailis
... but, but I feel like I can brag about our food and products because, um, I wasn't... Oh, wait. You know, a few recipe, you know, recipes early on I came up with, but it was, um, the people that worked with me that created really good recipes and products. And I was just kind of there, um, curating it all or, um, helping to get it out there. So-
- LFLex Fridman
What was your favorite thing that you've created? Maybe yourself eat. Not, not you created, but this whole, all of these efforts have created in terms of meal. Like you said cookies. What are we talking about here?
- SMSarma Melngailis
Oh, that's a hard question. Um, I mean-
- LFLex Fridman
Just, okay, not the favorite, but like something that pops into memory that brought you joy.
- SMSarma Melngailis
The Mallomar.
- LFLex Fridman
What's that?
- SMSarma Melngailis
E- Everybody loved the Mallomar. It w- so very often we made like raw vegan versions of things that people are, um, familiar with. So it was a... I think it was pecans. It was like a salty cookie made with nuts and then covered in chocolate, and then there's a big blob of coconut cream. Um-
- LFLex Fridman
I love coconut.
- SMSarma Melngailis
Which it didn't taste coconutty. Um, our ice cream was made with a coconut also. It's like the meat from coconuts pureed, and then there's some soaked cashews in there. But anyway, it was a blob of vanilla flavored cream, kind of like a, a, you know, like a healthy natural version of Fluff.
- LFLex Fridman
Mm-hmm.
- SMSarma Melngailis
I don't know if you're familiar with Fluff.
- LFLex Fridman
Uh, basically every single word you say I'm not familiar with. You should see my diet. I don't. It's like steak and vegetables.
- SMSarma Melngailis
Fluff is like a thing that I remember it from my childhood, like peanut butter and Fluff is a ridiculously delicious combination. (laughs)
- LFLex Fridman
Is it fluffy or is it not?
- SMSarma Melngailis
It's like a marshmallow. It's basically like, like if you softened marshmallows and made it into a luxurious, amazing goo-
- 32:18 – 44:26
Leon: The Pitbull
- LFLex Fridman
I think before you got your rescue dog, a pit bull named Leon.
- SMSarma Melngailis
Yeah. 2011.
- LFLex Fridman
2011, 2010? Do you remember? How he, how he-
- SMSarma Melngailis
Um, it was September 2010, so... 'Cause I think he was born roughly around March. I gave him a designated birthday of March 10th, 2010.
- LFLex Fridman
Why is that? Why, why March 10th?
- SMSarma Melngailis
I wrote about the story of adopting him on my website a long time ago, and then I re-posted it here on my current website. And, um, what happened, I got weirdly obsessed with Leon. Before he was Leon, he was a, a dog in a shelter named Quinn, and, um, I couldn't stop thinking about him, and the-
- LFLex Fridman
Him specifically?
- SMSarma Melngailis
Him specifically, yes.
- LFLex Fridman
You saw him, and there was something very special about him.
- SMSarma Melngailis
I was trying to convince somebody else to adopt a dog, so... And I-
- LFLex Fridman
Alec Baldwin.
- SMSarma Melngailis
Yeah, and it, and it didn't occur to me that I would get a-
- LFLex Fridman
I like how you didn't dr- name drop-
- SMSarma Melngailis
... dog.
- LFLex Fridman
... him, but you name dropped-
- SMSarma Melngailis
(laughs) .
- LFLex Fridman
... Tom Brady. (laughs) I like it. (laughs)
- SMSarma Melngailis
Um, so I was trying to convince him to get a dog 'cause I thought, you know, he should have a dog. I saw Leon's picture and just got weirdly obsessed with it in a way that I couldn't really explain, and, um, I was laying in bed one night and thinking... I just couldn't stop thinking about him, um, the dog. And the paperwork, or the, his description in the shelter bio said that he was roughly five months old or however. Whatever it gave as his age, I went back, and it, it would have been March 20... Would have been March of that year that he was born, and, um, I had a cat that I was particularly attached to. I had two cats, brother and sister, but the, the boy cat we had sort of a, like a... Something that felt like a... You know, like we'd look at each other and, like, there was something there. I don't know what it was, but... Um, and in fact, when he got sick, I, I knew it before he even had any symptoms. It was like something in the way that he looked at me, I knew something was wrong, and then, uh-
- LFLex Fridman
Was it friendship? Was it, like... Uh, was there a power dynamic? Cats seem to not really-
- SMSarma Melngailis
Give a fuck? (laughs)
- LFLex Fridman
Yeah. They seem to dismiss you, uh, as- (laughs)
- SMSarma Melngailis
Usually, yeah.
- LFLex Fridman
... your w- your entire worth as a human being-
- SMSarma Melngailis
Right.
- LFLex Fridman
... in a single look. Was that there, or?
- SMSarma Melngailis
Um, he was more dog-like.
- LFLex Fridman
Okay.
- SMSarma Melngailis
Uh, he would occasionally fetch, like this little styrofoam thing I had. He would fetch it and bring it back, and he was, um, friendly, and, you know, if somebody came over, he would jump in their lap. Um, he was less standoffish than most cats. Um, but there was just something about the way he would look at me. I don't know. And I... Maybe, probably in his mind, he's just a cat. I give him food. Whereas in my mind, it's some kind of, you know, great soul connection. (laughs)
- LFLex Fridman
Great, great-
- SMSarma Melngailis
But not in his-
- 44:26 – 56:27
Bad Vegan
- LFLex Fridman
before we get to any of the interesting details. So in, uh, 2011, you meet Anthony Strangis. Then in 2012, you two get married. Uh, 2015, the staff walk out due to failure to pay from the two restaurants. It reopens in April of 2015, and July of that year, there's another walkout, and so on. There's all this kind of stuff.
- SMSarma Melngailis
That's a confusing timeline.
- LFLex Fridman
It, it, well, it's not, to me, that's not even...
- SMSarma Melngailis
(laughs)
- LFLex Fridman
The point is, in 2015, there's chaos happening. Okay. Uh, 2016, in the spring, Pure Foods & Wine closes.
- SMSarma Melngailis
It closed in, um, 2015.
- LFLex Fridman
2015, okay. There's some factual stuff that's not, yeah, maybe correct me on it, to me, it's not that important. To me, the spirit of the thing is important.
- SMSarma Melngailis
Mm-hmm.
- LFLex Fridman
Okay. May 12th, 2016, you and your then husband, Anthony Strangis, were arrested after he ordered pizza using his real name.
- SMSarma Melngailis
(laughs)
- LFLex Fridman
Okay. In May 2017, you pleaded guilty to stealing more than two million dollars from investors and scheming to defraud as well as, this is from Wikipedia, uh...
- SMSarma Melngailis
Yeah, they're wrong.
- LFLex Fridman
Well, let me just finish reading it-
- SMSarma Melngailis
Yeah. (laughs)
- LFLex Fridman
... and then you tell me why it's wrong. "In May 2017, you pleaded guilty to stealing more than two million dollars from investors and scheming to defraud, as well as criminal tax fraud charges." Why is Wikipedia wrong? And how dare you?
- SMSarma Melngailis
(laughs) Well, it depends, I mean, I did plead guilty to those things, which, um, I had to, oh, I was, I, I got a jury duty summons, and I had to fill out, like, what charges I pled guilty to. Um, and I had to go online and look it up because I didn't really remember, which is, I thought that was interesting. (laughs) I had to go look it up, but...
- LFLex Fridman
Well, actually, let me finish the timer 'cause there's one more point.
- SMSarma Melngailis
Oh, yeah.
- LFLex Fridman
March 16th, 2022, Bad Vegan documentary comes out where you're interviewed, there's, they tell the story.
- SMSarma Melngailis
Mm-hmm.
- LFLex Fridman
Some stuff is true, someti- some is not, some is disturbingly misleading, as you said. Okay, timeline over. Anyway, what, what's wrong with the, um, um, how would you elaborate onto the, you pleading guilty for two million dollars stealing?
- SMSarma Melngailis
So, a lot of people plead guilty when they're, for reasons other than they're actually guilty. So, you know, it's, even right now, if I knew that I was gonna have to spend four months or three and a half, um, at Rikers, and I was thinking about this recently, and even if I knew that I'd be acquitted at the end of a trial, I very likely would've just taken the four months because, um, you know, the stress of going through a trial, but in particular, it'd be incredibly stressful not knowing the outcome. Um, and then money and expense I didn't have, and so, you know, people plead guilty all the time, even if they don't think that they, that they should. Um, and my situation was so complicated and hard to understand that it just was the easier thing to do. But also I just was kind of going on the advice of lawyers and, um...
- LFLex Fridman
So the, the choice, just so I understand-
- SMSarma Melngailis
Mm-hmm.
- LFLex Fridman
... was to plead guilty or to go through a lengthy trial.
- SMSarma Melngailis
Mm-hmm.
- LFLex Fridman
And that trial would stretch, uh, a long time and it would be extremely stressful and-
- SMSarma Melngailis
And extremely expensive.
- LFLex Fridman
... because you have to pay the lawyers.
- SMSarma Melngailis
Right, and I didn't have anything.
- 56:27 – 1:01:10
Abusive relationship
- LFLex Fridman
- SMSarma Melngailis
Okay. (laughs)
- LFLex Fridman
Okay. Uh, so mo- moving back to where was your mind that led you to disappear to... Did you guys go to Vegas first and then T- Tennessee?
- SMSarma Melngailis
No. I kind of refer to it as, like, the road trip from hell.
- LFLex Fridman
That's a very Hunter S. Thompson way to describe it.
- SMSarma Melngailis
Right.
- LFLex Fridman
It's bad... You went back, you, to, to bad country.
- SMSarma Melngailis
Maybe it was sort of Hunter S. Thompson-esque, except without actual drugs. Um-
- LFLex Fridman
Hmm.
- SMSarma Melngailis
That was one of the first questions my father asked me was, "Was it drugs?" And I wished that I could have said yes-
- LFLex Fridman
Yeah.
- SMSarma Melngailis
... 'cause I didn't know how to explain what had happened. Um, but-
- LFLex Fridman
So road trip from hell-
- SMSarma Melngailis
He took me away involuntarily, except, you know, of course he wasn't holding a gun to my head. But all along, it was like a metaphorical gun.
- LFLex Fridman
Was there ever physical abuse?
- SMSarma Melngailis
Um, no. What would qualify as sexual abuse, yes. Um, but physically, no. A couple of times, we would get into slightly physical fights, but he never, um... I mean, he was big and as large and blubbery (laughs) as he was, he was, he was also really strong.
- LFLex Fridman
Mm-hmm.
- SMSarma Melngailis
So sometimes he would, like, subdue me, but other than that, no, there wasn't physical violence, but a lot of people will say that, um, the psychological violence is, um... I don't wanna diminish physical violence, but some people say that the psychological and emotional violence is more destructive.
- LFLex Fridman
It's just that the physical violence is easier to identify.
- SMSarma Melngailis
It's easier to identify and, and it seems kind of more straightforward.
- LFLex Fridman
Yeah.
- SMSarma Melngailis
Whereas psychological, you know, and you have a bruise on your face or you break a bone and th- those things hopefully heal in a visible way, but psychological stuff, you know, you, you can't easily identify or understand, or others can't easily identify it.
- LFLex Fridman
And then you find yourself crying for no reason at a beautiful song at some point.
- SMSarma Melngailis
Yes.
- LFLex Fridman
And it's, that, that has to do something happening in the depth of your mind. Okay, so he took you away, but where was the, I mean, where was your mind that was doing both of those things, was able to be taken away, but also was pushing to the s- the, the, the flourishing, the reopening and the flourishing of the restaurant?
- SMSarma Melngailis
Well, you know, I wouldn't have reopened the restaurant with, and then knowing I was gonna all of a sudden be taken away from it and it was gonna get closed again. You know, it was like, "Why, why would I do that? Why would anybody do that?" Um, and one of the things that I tried to do towards the end was, I was trying to get myself off the bank accounts because I didn't want him to be able to get money out of me, and so there was, uh, one time when I tried to get one of the investors, we went to the bank together to put her on as a signer and take me off, and because we didn't have the operating agreement, they wouldn't let us do it, so it was like this little snafu. And, um, so all, all of these things are sort of the opposite of criminal intent.
- LFLex Fridman
But that's a, that's a legal thing. What's, what's going on in your mind at this time?
- SMSarma Melngailis
I don't know. I mean-
- LFLex Fridman
Were you, were you... Oh, did you give yourself a chance to just think?
- SMSarma Melngailis
No. And I think that's part of... One of the things that might have saved me or anybody that's pulled into a cult, one of the things that they do is they keep you exhausted, overwhelmed, confused, and afraid, um, and so you don't have any time to think. So you're just kind of constantly running and you're confused and then things are happening. It's funny, there's a, I have some quotes in my book draft because I listen to a lot of podcasts, I ha- I don't know what the logistics are of, like, crediting a quote from a podcast in a book-
- 1:01:10 – 1:07:05
Remorse for employees
- LFLex Fridman
uh, ends. Let's actually just step back a little bit, and just looking at the employees of the restaurant and so on.
- SMSarma Melngailis
Mm-hmm.
- LFLex Fridman
Do you have remorse for what happened? Especially from the perspective of the employees and the staff?
- SMSarma Melngailis
Yeah. I mean, hurting them was sort of the last thing that I would ever have wanted to do. And in part, I mean, there was financial harm. Um, but, um, I don't, I don't know whether it's more important or not, but, you know, it was taking a place that was very much like a family to them, um, and it was as if I destroyed it. And so I think that because we were so much like a family, it was almost as if, like, Mom went off the deep end and got together with some cuckoo, abusive guy, and, and sort of abandoned them. And they didn't know what was going on and what was happening. And...
- LFLex Fridman
So do you regret lying to them?
- SMSarma Melngailis
I regret lying to anybody in all of those circumstances. But, uh, I wasn't lying, you know, he made me think that, you know, everything was gonna be reversed and okay, and anybody that money was borrowed from, they would get it back, you know, maybe tenfold. And so it was this weird situation of having, like, one foot in his reality and potentially believing the things he was saying, or even, over time, wanting to believe them more and more because the alternative was so, um, the alternative was worse. The alternative was, like, was increasingly a bigger and bigger nightmare. So...
- LFLex Fridman
So there's this whole situation where you're constantly giving him money, you're constantly borrowing and borrowing money, with this idea that it'll be repaid, like, 100X fold.
- SMSarma Melngailis
Right.
- LFLex Fridman
Kind of like, yeah.
- SMSarma Melngailis
So it's sort of like lying to somebody because you're planning their surprise party. You think, like-
- LFLex Fridman
Yeah.
- SMSarma Melngailis
... "Well, I'm lying to somebody, but I'm, but it's because there's a good reason."
- LFLex Fridman
Yeah.
- SMSarma Melngailis
You know, it's sort of, that's not a good example, but...
- LFLex Fridman
No, but you could have not made it a surprise party, and be like, pull 'em in onto the planning of the party, and be honest about, like, everything that's happening. Not in a negative way, but, like, get them in on the fact that, "Okay, I just need to give money to this guy, but we'll get, he is a super rich person of some kind, and he'll, um, repay."
- SMSarma Melngailis
I mean, I wish I, well...
- LFLex Fridman
'Cause you're holding onto this-
- SMSarma Melngailis
The entire time, I mean that, that's part of the torture is that you're isolated and unable, unable to tell anybody.
- LFLex Fridman
But you're not unable, or he was telling you you're not allowed to say anything to anybody. I mean, you're choosing not to say anything, but it's because of the, sort of the weight of it. 'Cause it's embarrassing to sort of, is it embarrassing? It's something. I mean, what, why do you not tell others? You know?
- SMSarma Melngailis
Um-
- LFLex Fridman
What, what is that? What's, what, what's happening to the mind where you don't tell others?
- SMSarma Melngailis
I don't know. You're, part of why the story, uh, you know, everything that happened is hard to summarize and talk about in any concise way is that so much of it happens in this very slow, slow, slow-
- LFLex Fridman
Step by step.
- SMSarma Melngailis
... way. And, um, you know, people always use the whole, like, frog and boiling water example. Um, so that by the time you realize you're fucked, it's too late.
- LFLex Fridman
Mm-hmm.
- SMSarma Melngailis
Um, and it, and it seems hard to believe or understand to other people because they see where you are or where you ended up, and they think, "Well, how did you let that happen?" And, well, I don't know. I-
- LFLex Fridman
Yeah.
- SMSarma Melngailis
I, would I-
- LFLex Fridman
Stuff like that.
- SMSarma Melngailis
... have willingly destroyed my life and hurt all the people I care about and, you know, allowed my mother to get hurt and, I wouldn't have ev- ever willingly done that. So something else must have happened, and that's, um, that's the part that's difficult to understand.
- 1:07:05 – 1:17:30
Sociopathy
- LFLex Fridman
let's continue, uh, with the hard questions.
- SMSarma Melngailis
Mm-hmm.Are they gonna get easier? (laughs)
- LFLex Fridman
They're gonna get easier.
- SMSarma Melngailis
Okay. (laughs)
- LFLex Fridman
(laughs) Most of them are easy. Um, this is- this is fun. We're having fun. You posted on Instagram, "The ending..."
- SMSarma Melngailis
(laughs)
- LFLex Fridman
No, I'm gonna cite Instagram like it's Shakespeare, okay?
- SMSarma Melngailis
Okay.
- LFLex Fridman
"The ending is disturbingly misleading, but still I'm very grateful for this coverage," it's talking about the documentary, qu- in quotes, "documentary." "I'm okay with the criticism and judgment but would rather it be based on what's true." And then you say a couple of more sentences, and then you say, "Leon," who has his own Instagram account.
- SMSarma Melngailis
Yes, he does.
- LFLex Fridman
@1luckyrescuedog says, "Hello." He loves you all, "even if you call me a," quote, "defective, arrogant sociopath." It's all okay. So, the hard question. Do you think you are in part a sociopath?
- SMSarma Melngailis
No.
- LFLex Fridman
Would you know it if you were?
- SMSarma Melngailis
Yes.
- LFLex Fridman
How does this work? So what have you learned from reading this book? (laughs)
- SMSarma Melngailis
I had all these interesting thoughts abou- uh, all these sort of questions and thoughts about it because, um, the book I'm reading now, that I'm only about a third of the way through, she talks about, um, some of the things in the brain structure that are particular to sociopaths. And so then it makes you think, well, what if that could be tweaked in some way? Like, could you un-sociopath a sociopath?
- LFLex Fridman
Is it nature or nurture, like, I suppose is the question?
- SMSarma Melngailis
I think it's both. Um, I think it's genetic and then it's, like, genes that are turned on if-
- LFLex Fridman
Mm-hmm.
- SMSarma Melngailis
Um, by things like a particularly violent childhood, or some sort of a dysfunction. So, I think somebody could have the gene, it's not turned on, and then, um, the sociopaths have the gene and it's turned on. So...
- LFLex Fridman
So sociopath means that you're not able to be empathetic, or you're generally not empathetic to the- to the suffering of others, or to the mo- emotions of other? I mean, what, uh-
- SMSarma Melngailis
It's a hollowness.
- LFLex Fridman
Yeah.
- SMSarma Melngailis
So it's like you don't have, um... just completely lacking the capacity. I mean, it's tragic because they wouldn't understand or feel love, but it's like a hollowness. Um, and- and then something also about the wiring, and I think also because of that hollowness, they're able to incredibly quickly look at others and identify their insecurities, and buttons, and weak spots. So they're incredibly good at manipulation.
- LFLex Fridman
Is that because they're just able to o- objectively observe the situation? I w- I wonder wha- what-
- SMSarma Melngailis
Probably in part, but there was some other explanation related to the brain structure that I read somewhere that made sense to me, and I won't, like, remember it, 'cause I don't usually...
- LFLex Fridman
You're not Andrew Huberman who seems to reference-
- SMSarma Melngailis
No. Like, I'll listen to his pod-
- LFLex Fridman
... perfectly-
- SMSarma Melngailis
Yeah.
- 1:17:30 – 1:39:29
How Sarma met Anthony Strangis
- LFLex Fridman
Uh, so, um, can we just jump back? Speaking of, um, guys that say as an opener, "You're trash." How did you and Anthony Strangis meet? Can we jump around and tell some of the details here? 'Cause that- I believe the documentary doesn't cover that that well. It's not clear. There's some Twitter interactions, and you've kind of assumed, um ... By the way, I do think you need some social media coaching on this because I think, you know, um ... I- I, you know- I have- I have some, uh, uh, books you need to read, I think. Uh, some manuals on how to use Twitter properly.
- SMSarma Melngailis
Mm-hmm.
- LFLex Fridman
But anyway, the- the- apparently you kind of thought that this person, uh, who turned out to be- what was his name? Shane? He called himself Shane Fox, but he turned out to be Anthony Strangis. That he was somehow friends with Alec Baldwin because of their friendly interaction on Twitter.
- SMSarma Melngailis
Mm-hmm.
- LFLex Fridman
And so you started interacting wi- with him.
- SMSarma Melngailis
Mm-hmm.
- LFLex Fridman
And then there was- how did that escalate quickly to, um- to meeting-
- SMSarma Melngailis
It escalated slowly. And I think, um, I'm sure it was intentional because had I met him right away, I would have probably thought like, "Oh, he's not what I thought he was, and no thanks." Um, but it- it was a long ti- it was many weeks of back and forth conversation, um, digitally one way or another. So it was, you know, via Twitter, and then via direct message, and then we both played Words with Friends back then, and we would message in Words with Friends. And then eventually, you know, we exchanged phone numbers. So then it's-
- LFLex Fridman
How does Words with Friends work? What's that?
- SMSarma Melngailis
Words with Friends?
- LFLex Fridman
I know that's a popular game. Is that like Scrabble?
- SMSarma Melngailis
It's like Scrabble and you're playing other people, and then there's like a chat function.
- LFLex Fridman
Yeah. And then you could chat with him.
- SMSarma Melngailis
Right.
- LFLex Fridman
And so you were this intellectually stimulating game, and you were what, like, flirting and that kind of stuff? Like, f- w- witty banter.
- SMSarma Melngailis
Yes.
- LFLex Fridman
AKA flirting.
- SMSarma Melngailis
Yes. And but, but, um, it, all of that lasted a really long time, and h- and he would give me like little tiny bits and pieces of information about himself that made him seem kind of mysterious. Um-
- LFLex Fridman
This is a dark, mysterious man who was a Navy SEAL, strong.
- SMSarma Melngailis
Yeah. W- and he would always imply things versus say them outright, so you're kinda always guessing and filling things in. And-
- LFLex Fridman
Clint Eastwood type of character. He's not gonna say it outright.
- SMSarma Melngailis
He's what?
- LFLex Fridman
He's a Clint Eastwood type of character. He's not gonna say it outright.
- SMSarma Melngailis
Right.
- LFLex Fridman
He's just gonna act badass.
- SMSarma Melngailis
Yeah.
- LFLex Fridman
Okay. All right.
- SMSarma Melngailis
Um-
- LFLex Fridman
And p- plus intellectual, 'cause of worded, Words with F- Words with Friends. Is that still a thing by the way?
- SMSarma Melngailis
W- that's an ex- so-
Episode duration: 4:15:00
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