Sarma Melngailis: Bad Vegan, Fraud, Prison, and Sociopathy | Lex Fridman Podcast #288

Sarma Melngailis 0:00 He made me think that, you know, everything was gonna be reversed and okay, and anybody that money was borrowed from, they would get it back, you know, maybe tenfold. And so it was this weird situation of having, like, one foot in his reality and potentially believing the things he was saying, or even, over time, wanting to believe them more and more because the alternative was so... The alternative was worse. The alternative was like... Was increasingly a bigger and bigger nightmare.

Lex Fridman 0:33 The following is a conversation with Sarma Melngailus, a chef and restaurateur who was the subject of the Netflix documentary Bad Vegan: Fame, Fraud, and Fugitives, that documents the rise and fall of her vegan raw food restaurants in New York City, that ended in what she called a road trip from hell, being arrested in Tennessee or pleading guilty for stealing over two million dollars and serving four months at Rikers Island Jail. Sarma disputes the veracity of the documentary and its conclusions, saying that she was misrepresented. So I wanted to talk to her to get the full story and to seek understanding of who she is as a human being, the good and the bad. This is the Lex Fridman Podcast. To support it, please check out our sponsors in the description, and now, dear friends, here's Sarma Melngailus.

Lex Fridman 1:31 You've said that you did a lot of reading when you were growing up, and you mentioned Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas by Hunter S. Thompson. So from the reading you've done in those early days, how did you see the world? Was it to you a beautiful place or a cruel place?

Sarma Melngailis 1:49 I don't think I thought about the world.

Lex Fridman 1:51 You were focused on family? Just basic day-to-day life?

Sarma Melngailis 1:55 I think I was focused on day-to-day. I had an awareness of not fitting in, but I think back then it felt like something was wrong versus some people are just that way. And speaking of books, I read a book called, um, Party of One by a woman named Anneli Rufus that somebody gave me and suggested I read, and that helped a lot. That was, that was one book that made me feel like... It made me understand things from the past that I hadn't understood before, specifically kind of feeling out of place even among my family, which is where you're not supposed to feel out of place.

Lex Fridman 2:32 Yeah, I'm not sure where I saw it, but I think you mentioned that you were a bit of a loner, and I also think I saw somewhere pictures of you with, uh, with green hair in high school and, and, and a wild haircut. What was that about? Is that... Was that real? Am I just imagining things?

Sarma Melngailis 2:49 No, you're not imagining it. It's strange because I was kind of a, a loner, so it'd be strange to do something that calls so much attention to yourself.

Lex Fridman 3:00 (laughs)

Sarma Melngailis 3:00 Because back then, I mean, I grew up in a suburb of Boston, um, in Newton, and a- anybody that was there around that time probably if you said, you know, that girl with green hair or blue hair, it was blue most of the time, they would remember, like, seeing me walking down the street because it stood out like crazy, especially back then. Now it wouldn't stand out so much, but back then it really stood out. So I was trying to think about why I did that when-

Lex Fridman 3:28 (laughs)

Sarma Melngailis 3:29 ... I, I was kind of a... Kind of shy and on the one hand wouldn't want to bring attention to myself, but I did something that did, um, and it wasn't... My family, to their credit, they were fine with it, so it wasn't a rebellion against them or anything like that. They were fine with it. I don't think they loved it, but...

Lex Fridman 3:50 Your dad was a physicist at MIT.

Sarma Melngailis 3:52 Yes.

Lex Fridman 3:53 So (laughs) uh, so he, he was, he was cool with your, with your green hair and your rebellion. That's just the way of life.

Sarma Melngailis 4:00 He was fine with the green hair, but I think in some ways maybe they had to be fine with it because I didn't cause problems otherwise and I got good grades in school. I was a very low maintenance child, I think.

Lex Fridman 4:15 (laughs)

Sarma Melngailis 4:16 Pretty low maintenance.

Lex Fridman 4:16 Even with the green hair.

Sarma Melngailis 4:18 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 4:18 Uh, so Hunter S. Thompson, uh, wrote a lot of good stuff.

Sarma Melngailis 4:22 Mm-hmm.

Lex Fridman 4:22 Uh, he has a lot of just brilliant quotes, a lot of brilliant lines. Um, so one of the ones I love is, "Life should not be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well-preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside in a cloud of smoke, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming, 'Wow! What a ride!'" What do you think about that? Is that good life advice from Hunter S. Thompson?

Sarma Melngailis 4:53 I think so.

Lex Fridman 4:55 (laughs)

Sarma Melngailis 4:56 (laughs) I, he... I think he followed it, right? Somewhere, um, I heard recently what he consumed in a day.

Lex Fridman 5:03 Yeah.

Sarma Melngailis 5:03 And it was kind of astonishing. It's funny, I... When I was in college, there were always really interesting people coming through, speakers and whatnot, and I tended to not go to events and whatnot, but in the four years I was there, the... I mean, really interesting people came through and gave talks, you know, I don't know, just a lot of famous people, and, um. But then one day Hunter S. Thompson came to speak and-

Lex Fridman 5:26 Oh, really?

Sarma Melngailis 5:27 ... that was the only one I attended.

Lex Fridman 5:28 Oh, wow.

Sarma Melngailis 5:29 That was the only interesting person who came to speak on the campus that I attended was Hunter S. Thompson, and he had a... You know, he had a glass of whatever it was, whiskey, and I don't remember a whole lot about it, but it was (laughs) it was entertaining.

Lex Fridman 5:44 And, yeah, I mean, later in his life he started making less and less sense, but he was still somehow, like, embodying the, the crazy that he represented throughout his life, the boldness, the fearlessness, the wildness, all that kind of stuff, and we'll talk about Johnny Depp a little bit too. Funny enough, there's like a echo. Obviously he... Johnny Depp played him.... or he starred in Fear-

Sarma Melngailis 6:07 Mm-hmm.

Lex Fridman 6:07 ... and Loathing and they hung out together, and it just seemed to somehow, like the universe rhymes in these two individuals.

Sarma Melngailis 6:14 Mm-hmm.

Lex Fridman 6:14 They're both madmen in, in different kind of ways. So you also told me that Leon the Professional is one of your favorite films. It's also the reason you named your dog Leon.

Sarma Melngailis 6:25 Mm-hmm.

Lex Fridman 6:25 So, uh, what do you find beautiful and powerful about this film?

Sarma Melngailis 6:29 I've watched it a bunch of times, but it's been a while since I've watched it.

Sarma Melngailis 6:33 Um...

Lex Fridman 6:33 So for people who haven't watched it, it, there's a guy named Leon, played by Jean Reno. There's a, um, a young girl, I think, I don't know, 13, 14, Matilda, played by Natalie Portman, and she's abused. She has a really hard life. Her parents are, spoiler alert, uh, murdered, and then she finds protection under this, um, fella, uh, Leon, who, uh, also happens to be a professional as- assassin. And he is also kind of a Forrest Gump type character, like he's a really simple-

Sarma Melngailis 7:16 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 7:16 ... simple human. Uh, he almost, he seems to be, like, the immature one, or, like, rather the one who's young, and she seems to have a wisdom far beyond her age because of the hard life she had to live through, and then, and they're here huddling together from the cr- cruelty of the world, um, and, and finding connection.

Sarma Melngailis 7:38 Yeah, I think it's one of those films where there's so many interesting things about it, but pro- you know, I'm sure, one of them is just the contradiction of him being, you know, a caring person and reluctant to get attached to her. You know, he tries to, I think he knows he's g- he's very reluctant to get attached to her in the beginning, um, and so you see all of his humanity, but yet he's also an assassin that kills people, so, um, that's interesting, and I think probably a psychoanalyst would have a field day with why I like that movie so much.

Lex Fridman 8:11 (laughs)

Sarma Melngailis 8:11 Um, and I haven't necess- I haven't gone there myself, but there's something, I think, about she, even in the brief part that depicts her in the beginning, it seems clear that she's sort of out of place in her family, um, and, um, and then, yeah, there's all kinds of interesting things about their relationship along the way.

Lex Fridman 8:35 What I like about that movie, and I had to think about it recently 'cause I read stuff about it that bothered me, or it bothered me, the fact that I haven't really thought about it before. For people who haven't watched the movie, so here's a young, underage girl who kinda comes on to him. First of all, I think she actually just doesn't know what, like, familial love is-

Sarma Melngailis 9:00 Mm-hmm.

Lex Fridman 9:00 ... so this is the only way she knows how to e- express love, that's one. And two is, you know, a lot of bad people in this world would take advantage of that, right? And the fact that, um, she finally met a human being who doesn't, and is just there to protect her, that's a real sort of, um, I don't know, a powerful statement of what it means to be sort of like a father figure, I suppose, a protector. So that, that, that to me, I, I, I love the idea of being sort of the, the protector, that there's something, like, uh, something worthwhile in this world to protect amidst all the cruelty that's all around. That's, that's a beautiful kinda... You're basically saving this young human's, or you're repairing this young human's path to love, to real love in life, because it, it, that idea of love was destroyed for her, just family, everything is, is-

Sarma Melngailis 10:13 Mm-hmm.

Lex Fridman 10:13 ... everything is, uh, (sighs) s- sort of, uh, everything around her is broken, and he's kind of repairing it by reestablishing what that kind of love can be. I don't know.

Sarma Melngailis 10:24 And the plant.

Lex Fridman 10:26 And the plant.

Sarma Melngailis 10:26 That, that they

Narrator 10:26 (laughs)

Sarma Melngailis 10:26 ... you know, they save the plant also.

Lex Fridman 10:29 (laughs) Well, there's also just the simple, the simplicity of the film, just from a cinematic perspective, is beautiful. The music, the way it looks, the minimalism.

Sarma Melngailis 10:38 Even the violence was beautiful.

Lex Fridman 10:41 Yeah, the violence. It was over the top and, uh, also the, the bad guy, the bad cop, played by, um, Gary Oldman-

Sarma Melngailis 10:51 Yeah, he was amazing.

Lex Fridman 10:52 ... I think he was listening to Beethoven or something like that-

Sarma Melngailis 10:55 Yeah. (laughs)

Lex Fridman 10:55 ... and he'd taken some sort of pills and drugs of some kind and, uh, so there was a kinda, like a, like a, like it's part of the orchestra, like the violence was part of the, of some kind of musical creation. (laughs)

Sarma Melngailis 11:08 Yeah, it's interesting 'cause I, I turn away from violence or films usually that have violence or TV or anything that has that sort of, um, element to it except in certain cases where, um...

Lex Fridman 11:24 Where the violence is beautiful?

Sarma Melngailis 11:26 Yeah, yeah. Or, um, did you see the movie True Romance?

Lex Fridman 11:32 Uh, yes, that's pro-

Sarma Melngailis 11:33 That's my second favorite movie.

Lex Fridman 11:35 Okay. That's probably my favorite movie, yeah.

Sarma Melngailis 11:38 Oh, well interesting, yeah, that's my second favorite movie, um...

Lex Fridman 11:40 That's a, that's a more, uh, simple kinda love, but also with the violence that is beautiful...

Sarma Melngailis 11:45 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 11:46 ... I suppose you could say.

Sarma Melngailis 11:46 Yeah, and my, um, my favorite scene is the one with Patricia Arquette and James Gandolfini.

Lex Fridman 11:52 Oh yeah, where she, there's a shotgun involved.

Sarma Melngailis 11:55 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 11:56 Yeah, and then-

Sarma Melngailis 11:57 It a- it actually makes me cry every time I see it-

Lex Fridman 12:00 Hmm.

Sarma Melngailis 12:00 ... for some reason. (laughs)

Lex Fridman 12:03 (laughs) So for people who haven't seen the film, I think, I think he's actually, I think, think he's hitting her or...... um, like there's blood and violence and so on-

Sarma Melngailis 12:16 Oh, yeah.

Lex Fridman 12:16 ... because she's resisting being murdered. (laughs)

Sarma Melngailis 12:19 Oh, there's a lot of... Yeah. There's a lot of violence, and then, you know, he throws her into the glass, um, the shower-

Lex Fridman 12:25 Yeah.

Sarma Melngailis 12:25 ... thing, and she's all cut up and beat up and, uh-

Lex Fridman 12:28 Oh, and, and she laughs.

Sarma Melngailis 12:30 There... Yeah. There's just so much-

Lex Fridman 12:31 She laughs at him.

Sarma Melngailis 12:31 ... passion in it, you know?

Lex Fridman 12:33 Yeah.

Sarma Melngailis 12:33 She's, she knows she's gonna... Or, in that moment, she knows or thinks she knows that she's gonna die anyway-

Lex Fridman 12:40 Yeah.

Sarma Melngailis 12:40 ... 'cause she re- she knows he's gonna kill her.

Lex Fridman 12:42 Yeah.

Sarma Melngailis 12:42 So she kinda gives it her... Gives it all she has, and, um...

Lex Fridman 12:47 But she also just has guts, though. She's not afraid.

Sarma Melngailis 12:50 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 12:50 Just-

Sarma Melngailis 12:50 Well, and also, she's, um, you know... She loves Clarence.

Lex Fridman 12:55 Yeah. The love comes through, through that violence. Yeah.

Sarma Melngailis 12:58 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 12:58 Just like, uh, Clarence. Her fella in that film, uh, has the same kind of thing when he visits-

Sarma Melngailis 13:07 Well, it was Gary Oldman again.

Lex Fridman 13:08 It was Gary Oldman again. That's right.

Sarma Melngailis 13:10 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 13:10 The pimp.

Sarma Melngailis 13:10 Looking very different.

Lex Fridman 13:11 Uh, Drexel.

Sarma Melngailis 13:12 Drexel, yeah.

Lex Fridman 13:13 Looking for... Yeah, and he's also fearless in that interaction, saying, "She's now mine." (sighs)

Sarma Melngailis 13:18 Mm-hmm.

Lex Fridman 13:18 It's interesting. That movie, so romantic, and a, uh, happy ending, spoiler alert, in a way.

Sarma Melngailis 13:24 That's what I like about it too, 'cause I, I feel like some movies should come with... I don't wanna watch a movie if it's gonna be devastating, usually, unless it's worthwhile in some other way, but I'm kinda sensitive, and I don't want, um... I don't like movies that have a terrible ending, you know? I mean, I was... There's a book I read because it got so many good reviews, and the very last scene, the woman steps in front of a train, and it was like, "Whoa." Um, so I'm partial to movies with happy endings. Um-

Lex Fridman 13:55 Leon ends with loss. Leon, the movie.

Sarma Melngailis 14:00 Right, but it's still inspiring.

Lex Fridman 14:03 Love persists in some kind of form.

Sarma Melngailis 14:06 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 14:06 She persists.

Sarma Melngailis 14:07 And the plant.

Lex Fridman 14:07 And the... (laughs)

Sarma Melngailis 14:09 (laughs) And the plant. Um-

Lex Fridman 14:11 Okay. Sure, sure. Uh, it, uh, True Romance does have one of the... I mean, it's probably unhealthy. We can also

Sarma Melngailis 14:16 That, that ending scene is just amazing.

Lex Fridman 14:18 We can also No. You're so cool, where she... Is that when th- where she just kinda looks at, uh, Clarence and her son, child, whatever, and she's saying, "You're so cool. You're so cool." Yeah. That's, that's love. As fucked up as it is.

Sarma Melngailis 14:34 I just... That movie has so much in it 'cause it's, you know... It's funny, and there's so many, so many good actors in that film.

Lex Fridman 14:42 And Brad Pitt, uh, plays, in that film, a pivotal role of pothead on couch.

Sarma Melngailis 14:47 Yeah. They're just, they're all so good and funny, and Michael Rapaport-

Lex Fridman 14:51 Yeah.

Sarma Melngailis 14:51 ... and, um, and even Val Kilmer. People don't realize he's in the movie 'cause he doesn't look like himself. Um-

Lex Fridman 14:58 Wait, what, what did Val Kilmer p-

Sarma Melngailis 14:59 Val Kilmer's in the very end. It's, um... You know when he's, there's, like, the Elvis sitting there talking to him in the end?

Lex Fridman 15:07 Yeah. Yeah.

Sarma Melngailis 15:07 That's Val Kilmer.

Lex Fridman 15:09 (laughs)

Sarma Melngailis 15:10 (laughs) Yeah, you don't notice it unless you-

Lex Fridman 15:13 Yeah.

Sarma Melngailis 15:13 ... somehow either are very perceptive or noticed it in the credits.

Lex Fridman 15:17 Yeah, and uh, Quentin Tarantino wrote the film, I think.

Sarma Melngailis 15:21 Yes.

Lex Fridman 15:21 Which is interesting. Uh, directed by Tony Scott, and the music is, uh, beautiful too.

Sarma Melngailis 15:28 And Christopher Walken and, um, um, Dennis Hopper.

Lex Fridman 15:33 Dennis Hopper. Dennis Hopper plays Clarence's-

Sarma Melngailis 15:36 Dad.

Lex Fridman 15:36 ... uh, uh, dad, and they have this very racist-sounding scene, but the big, uh, important aspect of that scene is it's a father willing to die to protect his son. I mean, there's so much, so much beautiful violence in that film.

Sarma Melngailis 15:53 There is. (laughs) There is. I love that film so much.

Lex Fridman 15:57 Uh, and she's a prostitute, or not really. Part-time, short time.

Sarma Melngailis 16:02 No, it was her first time.

Lex Fridman 16:03 First time?

Sarma Melngailis 16:05 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 16:05 Okay. And he saved her, and uh... Hmm.

Sarma Melngailis 16:13 My third favorite film has no violence whatsoever.

Lex Fridman 16:16 What's your third favorite film?

Sarma Melngailis 16:17 Um, A Room with a View.

Lex Fridman 16:20 What's-

Sarma Melngailis 16:20 I feel like you'd like it.

Lex Fridman 16:22 What's-

Sarma Melngailis 16:22 It's, um, um, I forget the author. It's a book, and I, I read the book much later. Um, but it's, um, Helena Bonham Carter and, um, uh, Daniel Day-Lewis is in it, and Julian Sands.

Lex Fridman 16:40 Daniel Day-Lewis is a fascinating character.

Sarma Melngailis 16:43 He's amazing in this film 'cause he plays... He's very funny. He sort of plays a... He's a comical character, which is unlike most of what he does, I think. I don't watch a ton of movies, so, um, but yeah. He pl- his, his role is funny.

Lex Fridman 17:01 Well, that's a, that's a heck of a

Lex Fridman 17:03 top three. Uh, you, you brought me some books, some bread and books.

Sarma Melngailis 17:08 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 17:09 Some Russian bread, Russian-inspired bread.

Sarma Melngailis 17:12 Yeah. I mean, it's Latvian, but it's similar to-

Lex Fridman 17:16 Close enough.

Sarma Melngailis 17:16 ... similar to what's made in Russia, and it's made at a Russian bakery-

Lex Fridman 17:20 That's where your dad is from, right?

Sarma Melngailis 17:21 My dad is from Latvia. Yeah.

Lex Fridman 17:23 So you got me some books. Beautiful Ruins.

Sarma Melngailis 17:26 Yeah, and if you never read them, who cares? That's totally fine. You know, people give you books and then you feel like you just-

Lex Fridman 17:33 I don't-

Sarma Melngailis 17:33 ... you're, you sort of feel like

Lex Fridman 17:34 ... I, I see this as... We'll, we'll talk about this.

Sarma Melngailis 17:37 Okay.

Lex Fridman 17:37 This is part therapy session. I don't feel the need to, to satisfy people's happiness.

Sarma Melngailis 17:43 That's a good thing.

Lex Fridman 17:43 Okay, so... But they, it could also be a, um, an opportunity to experience something I never otherwise would've. So, Beautiful Ruins.

Sarma Melngailis 17:53 It's a book that made me laugh and cry, and it's just a happy story. And for some reason, I don't know exactly why, but for some reason, um, when you asked me to come, for s- it just... I thought, "Oh, I'm gonna bring a copy of that book."

Lex Fridman 18:08 That's... You just felt-

Sarma Melngailis 18:10 Yes.

Lex Fridman 18:10 It came, a voice told you.

Sarma Melngailis 18:12 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 18:12 There's others. Darkness Visible.

Sarma Melngailis 18:14 These are more-

Lex Fridman 18:15 A Memoir of Madness. Compelling, harrowing, a vivid portrait of a-... debilitating disorder, it offers the solace of shared experience." The New York Times.

Sarma Melngailis 18:26 This is-

Lex Fridman 18:26 William Styron.

Sarma Melngailis 18:26 ... there's a little bit about this book that reminds me of, um, the Karl Deisseroth-

Lex Fridman 18:34 Yeah.

Sarma Melngailis 18:34 ... book because he writes about his own condition in, um... I mean, he's an amazing writer, so he writes about it in this beautiful way and, oddly enough, in some ways, it's kind of delightful. So it's not at all a depressing book, at least I didn't find it depressing at all, I don't think it is. Um, but he writes about his own experience with depression in such a beautiful way. Um, my own copy is full of underlines. Um, in the-

Lex Fridman 19:04 I would, I would love that copy too. I, I, I would love to look into the underlines and the, and then the books with notes those little secrets that people leave, traces.

Sarma Melngailis 19:14 That's part of why I like paper books is 'cause I underline, I tend to underline like crazy. The, the Karl Deisseroth book is full of underlines too.

Lex Fridman 19:22 Well, I do the same thing on Kindle, but, um, and then you can actually more effectively go back to the things you've underlined 'cause you highlight and so on. But in fact, when you underline in, on paper books, you sometimes never go back, which just always makes me sad.

Sarma Melngailis 19:39 To the, to the book?

Lex Fridman 19:40 To the things you've underlined.

Sarma Melngailis 19:41 In the paper books?

Lex Fridman 19:42 Yeah, in the paper books.

Sarma Melngailis 19:43 Oh, I do, I go back.

Lex Fridman 19:44 Oh, you do?

Sarma Melngailis 19:44 Yeah. I go back a lot.

Lex Fridman 19:45 Do you wonder what, what the heck you were thinking about when you wrote something?

Sarma Melngailis 19:49 No. Well, sometimes I underline things that are... Well, also what I do is I have in a whole file in Evernote of transcribed quotes from books, ones that I wanna save. So I might underline a lot of things in a book and then maybe, like, a third of them I wanna write them down somewhere. So I, I write those down and I think even the time it takes to transcribe it is somehow worthwhile. It's like searing it in your brain and, um...

Lex Fridman 20:15 And you're reliving the memory of having read it the first time.

Sarma Melngailis 20:20 Yeah, and then sometimes I'll pick up books. I even, um... And sometimes I just underline sentences that are... it's not the content of the sentence, it's more that it's just a beautifully written sentence or like a particularly apt metaphor or something that's, that's really nice. Um, and I like paper books too 'cause I bought Beautiful Ruins. I would have never heard of it, I don't think, except one of my favorite things is to go to used bookstores. Actually, Goodwill sometimes has really good big book selections and depending on the area where you go, um, sometimes you find a lot of treasures there. And what ends up happening a lot is I end up buying books that I know... Sometimes also 'cause I lost all my belongings at one point, so I'll very often buy books that I've already read just to have them. And, um, um, but then what always ends up happening is I'll find... There will be a couple of books that I buy that I've never heard of the author. I don't really know anything about... I don't know anything about the book at all but something drew me to it, and what I like about that is you're buying, you're buying used books so it costs a dollar or two. So if you made a mistake, like, no big deal, who cares? So, but every time I come back with a book haul, there's usually at least one gem that I end up loving and I'm so glad that I read it, and Beautiful Ruins was that book for me. And I was drawn to it because of the cover art. Like, I just loved, I just loved the cover and the colors and, um, and then I picked it up and read the back and, and bought it and, um, I also feel bad sometimes buying used books when the author is still alive 'cause I feel like if you write a book you should get the, the royalties, so, um...

Lex Fridman 22:02 But you get to live with that regret.

Sarma Melngailis 22:04 Well, also, I mean, I'll usually end up putting a picture of Leon reading the book online and then other people buy it and read it and so I feel like I've made up for-

Lex Fridman 22:12 You make up for it.

Sarma Melngailis 22:13 ... I've made up for depriving him of the, the royalties.

Lex Fridman 22:17 I used to live in, uh, Cambridge, Massachusetts.

Sarma Melngailis 22:21 I know it well. I used to hang out at The Pit in Harvard Square with my green and blue hair (laughs) when I was very-

Lex Fridman 22:26 Ah, nice.

Sarma Melngailis 22:26 ... way too young to be doing that by myself.

Lex Fridman 22:29 And there's a guy that I think has been there for a long time, sort of between Kendall and Central-

Sarma Melngailis 22:36 Mm-hmm.

Lex Fridman 22:36 ... that would just lay out used books and sell them, and I always loved that guy. Whoever he was, he had a, he had a cool hat. He was an older gentleman and you could just tell he's seen some things.

Sarma Melngailis 22:49 Mm-hmm.

Lex Fridman 22:50 I don't know who he is. I always wanted to actually, like, talk to him for a long time but I was too afraid maybe 'cause I wouldn't be able to handle what he had to tell me. I don't... 'Cause I almost wanted to maintain the innocence of just, "Okay, here's this guy," but he's, he was so... Every time you would ask him a question about a book, first of all, he's read all of them.

Sarma Melngailis 23:09 Oh, that's interesting.

Lex Fridman 23:10 Which means he's traveled quite a few places inside these worlds. And then you would tell... I would look at a book, right? And you, you just... He would catch you being curious about it and then he would walk up to you and then he would start talking about the book and he would always forget that you were there. He's almost like... He's not trying to sell you the books-

Sarma Melngailis 23:32 Start talking to himself?

Lex Fridman 23:33 Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like almost like an ex-girlfriend he's visiting through this book or something.

Sarma Melngailis 23:39 Did you buy books from him?

Lex Fridman 23:40 Yeah, yeah, definitely, but the experience of just, just being there 'cause he lays them out and people actually that watch or listen to this probably will be able to tell me what his name is 'cause I'd love to find that guy again. I'm sure he's still there.

Sarma Melngailis 23:53 Maybe you'll have him on the podcast. (laughs)

Lex Fridman 23:55 I 100% will. Uh, but it's, it's almost terrifying. Um, I'm not sure I can handle 'cause he's been through some things. I'm not sure if he's homeless or, or just looks like it.

Sarma Melngailis 24:07 Yep. That's sometimes a thing.

Lex Fridman 24:10 (laughs) And, uh, some of my favorite people either are homeless or look like it so... Okay, what's the-

Sarma Melngailis 24:17 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 24:17 ... third one? The, uh, A Confession of a Sociopath by M.E. Thomas, "A life spent hiding in plain sight."

Sarma Melngailis 24:25 It's a book I recommend a lot, um-... 'cause I've read a lot about sociopathy, and I've read all the books by psychologists, and, um, and this one's written by a woman who, um, understands herself, that she is a sociopath. And so it's beautifully written, but I learned, I, I learned more from that book than from any other book. And, um, I think I thought about a long time ago, um, I think a lot of conversations you've talked a lot about good and evil, and, you know, whether everybody's really good or some people are not good. Um, and I think sociopathy is a, is something that I think the world needs to understand much better. And so that, that book helped me understand a lot, and it's beautifully written, and she tackles all the really interesting moral questions, like, um, you know, like what if we were able to definitively diagnose people in some way? Like there was a... You could immediately identify who's a full-blown sociopath. And then what, as a society, would you do with them? Because in most cases, you know, they're, they're just gonna cause destruction and pain and harm and/or potentially rise to power and become president (laughs) or something. Um, so it's, I, I just found that book fascinating.

Lex Fridman 25:51 And we'll return to this idea 'cause it's fascinating. We'll return to human psychology and human nature, but let's go through, um... Let's go through the timeline of your life. Let's take a stroll.

Lex Fridman 26:07 So, uh, you wrote that the documentary about you called Bad Vegan: Fame, Fraud, Fugitives, is not a documentary. It got some things right, some things wrong, and some were, quote, "Disturbingly misleading." So let's go through and get things right today. Um, first, can I give you a, a whirlwind summary, the way I, I understand it?

Sarma Melngailis 26:30 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 26:30 And also for context of people. So 2004, you, Matthew Kenney, and Jeffrey Chodorow opened Pure Foods & Wine in New York City. Did I say their names correctly?

Sarma Melngailis 26:44 Pure Food & Wine.

Lex Fridman 26:45 No, their names.

Sarma Melngailis 26:46 Oh, theirs. (laughs) Who... Well, yeah. Matthew Kenney and Jeffrey Chodorow, yeah.

Lex Fridman 26:50 Yeah. So it's... Uh, and I'll ask you about what it takes to, to, to, to launch and run a restaurant in New York City. That's a fascinating story in itself. So it's an upscale raw food restaurant. All right, that's 2004. 2007, you open One Lucky Duck Juice & Takeaway, and then second and third locations in 2009 and '14. Uh, all of those things close in, uh, 2016. Uh, '15, '16. '15 and '16, okay. All right, 2009, Jeffrey lends you $2.1 million to buy the business outright, and Matthew is out.

Sarma Melngailis 27:31 Matthew was out earlier than that, and then time passed, time passed, and I had, um... What was complicated is I had started the One Lucky Duck brand on my own. Um-

Lex Fridman 27:42 At first it was a dot-com that was doing like delivery? Or no-

Sarma Melngailis 27:46 It was a, it was a dot-com where people could order ingredients and things, and all of the products that we made and packaged. So we made a bunch of cookies and snacks and things that were, I think, different and, if I may say so myself, better than other, um-

Lex Fridman 28:02 Strong words.

Sarma Melngailis 28:03 ... products out there.

Lex Fridman 28:04 Talk, talking trash already-

Sarma Melngailis 28:05 Yeah, but then-

Lex Fridman 28:05 ... about the cookies. (laughs)

Sarma Melngailis 28:06 ... but, but I feel like I can brag about our food and products because, um, I wasn't... Oh, wait. You know, a few recipe, you know, recipes early on I came up with, but it was, um, the people that worked with me that created really good recipes and products. And I was just kind of there, um, curating it all or, um, helping to get it out there. So-

Lex Fridman 28:32 What was your favorite thing that you've created? Maybe yourself eat. Not, not you created, but this whole, all of these efforts have created in terms of meal. Like you said cookies. What are we talking about here?

Sarma Melngailis 28:44 Oh, that's a hard question. Um, I mean-

Lex Fridman 28:46 Just, okay, not the favorite, but like something that pops into memory that brought you joy.

Sarma Melngailis 28:51 The Mallomar.

Lex Fridman 28:52 What's that?

Sarma Melngailis 28:52 E- Everybody loved the Mallomar. It w- so very often we made like raw vegan versions of things that people are, um, familiar with. So it was a... I think it was pecans. It was like a salty cookie made with nuts and then covered in chocolate, and then there's a big blob of coconut cream. Um-

Lex Fridman 29:12 I love coconut.

Sarma Melngailis 29:13 Which it didn't taste coconutty. Um, our ice cream was made with a coconut also. It's like the meat from coconuts pureed, and then there's some soaked cashews in there. But anyway, it was a blob of vanilla flavored cream, kind of like a, a, you know, like a healthy natural version of Fluff.

Lex Fridman 29:31 Mm-hmm.

Sarma Melngailis 29:31 I don't know if you're familiar with Fluff.

Lex Fridman 29:33 Uh, basically every single word you say I'm not familiar with. You should see my diet. I don't. It's like steak and vegetables.

Sarma Melngailis 29:40 Fluff is like a thing that I remember it from my childhood, like peanut butter and Fluff is a ridiculously delicious combination. (laughs)

Lex Fridman 29:47 Is it fluffy or is it not?

Sarma Melngailis 29:48 It's like a marshmallow. It's basically like, like if you softened marshmallows and made it into a luxurious, amazing goo-

Lex Fridman 29:56 Oh, so it's like a fancy marshmallow.

Sarma Melngailis 29:57 ... and then put it in a jar.

Lex Fridman 29:59 Okay. So it's just, it's just goo.

Sarma Melngailis 30:00 And then made it spreadable. It's spreadable marshmallows kind of-

Lex Fridman 30:03 Oh, I see.

Sarma Melngailis 30:05 I think that's... Yeah. So-

Lex Fridman 30:06 S- Spreadable marshmallows. Got it.

Sarma Melngailis 30:08 Yeah. So there's a big blob of that.

Lex Fridman 30:09 I didn't know that existed. That's a thing? Fl- Fl- Fluff.

Sarma Melngailis 30:12 Fluff. I know. I had to learn for you 'cause you-

Lex Fridman 30:14 Does everyone... Do people know about this?

Sarma Melngailis 30:16 Oh, yeah. Everybody knows. (laughs)

Lex Fridman 30:18 Okay.

Sarma Melngailis 30:18 People... I mean, I think so. People know about Fluff and-

Lex Fridman 30:21 See, I think I went... I, I, I took the road less traveled by. You know, I went the, the peanut butter and Nutella road, in terms of spreadable things.

Sarma Melngailis 30:30 Nutella is like the chocolate version.... and then fluff is, like, the vanilla-

Lex Fridman 30:36 Oh, okay.

Sarma Melngailis 30:36 ... equivalent, sort of.

Lex Fridman 30:37 Cool.

Sarma Melngailis 30:38 But I think commercial fluff that you buy in the store is just, like, sugar and whatever else they put in there. Um, anyway-

Lex Fridman 30:46 So it's not actually fluffy. It's-

Sarma Melngailis 30:48 It's kind of fluffy.

Lex Fridman 30:49 Okay.

Sarma Melngailis 30:50 But it's wet. (laughs)

Lex Fridman 30:51 'Cause, 'cause Nutella is not-

Sarma Melngailis 30:52 It's like-

Lex Fridman 30:52 ... fluffy.

Sarma Melngailis 30:54 Yeah. It's, it... So it's like Nutella, if you whipped it and-

Lex Fridman 30:58 Okay, so whipped Nutella-

Sarma Melngailis 30:58 ... and then kind of got a little bit-

Lex Fridman 31:00 ... but vanilla.

Sarma Melngailis 31:01 ... like, a little bit aerated.

Lex Fridman 31:02 Okay. No, I'm getting this.

Sarma Melngailis 31:03 So it's a bit more fluffy. (laughs)

Lex Fridman 31:04 So fluff was a part of the formula here, so this fluff's a-

Sarma Melngailis 31:07 Well, the, so the, the coconut cream that we made was like a healthy version of fluff-

Lex Fridman 31:14 Oh.

Sarma Melngailis 31:15 ... kind of.

Lex Fridman 31:16 Nice.

Sarma Melngailis 31:16 Except it would... You know, you could make a, a quenelle, like a, like a little scoop of it, and it would stay in that form. Mallomars were refrigerated, and then there was, like, chocolate, um, drizzled over that. So it had that, like, salty sweet thing going on. Um, that was probably my favorite.

Lex Fridman 31:36 And that's a dessert?

Sarma Melngailis 31:37 Yeah. It was like a, it was like a dessert snack. It wasn't a d-... You wouldn't order it on the restaurant menu, but in the takeaway you could get them. Or sometimes some people would get them, um, shipped on dry ice and pay a lot of money, like a lot of money to have them shipped on dry ice.

Lex Fridman 31:54 (laughs) People are funny.

Sarma Melngailis 31:56 I know.

Lex Fridman 31:56 (laughs)

Sarma Melngailis 31:56 I kind of want to, like, name drop 'cause it was Tom Brady used to order them.

Lex Fridman 32:00 Oh, that's awesome. (laughs)

Sarma Melngailis 32:01 Yeah. They would order those-

Lex Fridman 32:03 (laughs)

Sarma Melngailis 32:03 ... shipped, um, on ice to Boston.

Lex Fridman 32:07 (laughs) Oh, yeah. Continuing on, in 2011 you meet Anthony Stranges on Twitter, and then in real life also around this time,

Lex Fridman 32:18 I think before you got your rescue dog, a pit bull named Leon.

Sarma Melngailis 32:23 Yeah. 2011.

Lex Fridman 32:24 2011, 2010? Do you remember? How he, how he-

Sarma Melngailis 32:25 Um, it was September 2010, so... 'Cause I think he was born roughly around March. I gave him a designated birthday of March 10th, 2010.

Lex Fridman 32:34 Why is that? Why, why March 10th?

Sarma Melngailis 32:37 I wrote about the story of adopting him on my website a long time ago, and then I re-posted it here on my current website. And, um, what happened, I got weirdly obsessed with Leon. Before he was Leon, he was a, a dog in a shelter named Quinn, and, um, I couldn't stop thinking about him, and the-

Lex Fridman 32:55 Him specifically?

Sarma Melngailis 32:56 Him specifically, yes.

Lex Fridman 32:57 You saw him, and there was something very special about him.

Sarma Melngailis 33:00 I was trying to convince somebody else to adopt a dog, so... And I-

Lex Fridman 33:04 Alec Baldwin.

Sarma Melngailis 33:05 Yeah, and it, and it didn't occur to me that I would get a-

Lex Fridman 33:07 I like how you didn't dr- name drop-

Sarma Melngailis 33:09 ... dog.

Lex Fridman 33:09 ... him, but you name dropped-

Sarma Melngailis 33:11 (laughs) .

Lex Fridman 33:13 ... Tom Brady. (laughs) I like it. (laughs)

Sarma Melngailis 33:13 Um, so I was trying to convince him to get a dog 'cause I thought, you know, he should have a dog. I saw Leon's picture and just got weirdly obsessed with it in a way that I couldn't really explain, and, um, I was laying in bed one night and thinking... I just couldn't stop thinking about him, um, the dog. And the paperwork, or the, his description in the shelter bio said that he was roughly five months old or however. Whatever it gave as his age, I went back, and it, it would have been March 20... Would have been March of that year that he was born, and, um, I had a cat that I was particularly attached to. I had two cats, brother and sister, but the, the boy cat we had sort of a, like a... Something that felt like a... You know, like we'd look at each other and, like, there was something there. I don't know what it was, but... Um, and in fact, when he got sick, I, I knew it before he even had any symptoms. It was like something in the way that he looked at me, I knew something was wrong, and then, uh-

Lex Fridman 34:15 Was it friendship? Was it, like... Uh, was there a power dynamic? Cats seem to not really-

Sarma Melngailis 34:23 Give a fuck? (laughs)

Lex Fridman 34:24 Yeah. They seem to dismiss you, uh, as- (laughs)

Sarma Melngailis 34:27 Usually, yeah.

Lex Fridman 34:28 ... your w- your entire worth as a human being-

Sarma Melngailis 34:31 Right.

Lex Fridman 34:31 ... in a single look. Was that there, or?

Sarma Melngailis 34:34 Um, he was more dog-like.

Lex Fridman 34:37 Okay.

Sarma Melngailis 34:37 Uh, he would occasionally fetch, like this little styrofoam thing I had. He would fetch it and bring it back, and he was, um, friendly, and, you know, if somebody came over, he would jump in their lap. Um, he was less standoffish than most cats. Um, but there was just something about the way he would look at me. I don't know. And I... Maybe, probably in his mind, he's just a cat. I give him food. Whereas in my mind, it's some kind of, you know, great soul connection. (laughs)

Lex Fridman 35:07 Great, great-

Sarma Melngailis 35:08 But not in his-

Lex Fridman 35:08 ... long running, uh, romance.

Sarma Melngailis 35:10 Not in his kitty mind, but either way.

Lex Fridman 35:12 Yeah.

Sarma Melngailis 35:12 So he died in March, and I thought, um... So I sort of concocted this... I just thought, um, you know, that... Well, if he died on... He died on March 10th, and so I thought, "Well, maybe Leon was born that same day, and that's why."

Lex Fridman 35:28 Ah.

Sarma Melngailis 35:28 That's why I'm so drawn to him. I don't know. Um-

Lex Fridman 35:32 No. That, that, that ma- Okay. That makes sense. But then you-

Sarma Melngailis 35:36 It's one of those things that-

Lex Fridman 35:36 ... just felt like-

Sarma Melngailis 35:36 ... is sort of-

Lex Fridman 35:37 ... when you saw him, you just, like... There's something-

Sarma Melngailis 35:40 It was his picture, yeah.

Lex Fridman 35:41 Oh, the, the picture, and you were drawn something about the personality in the eyes.

Sarma Melngailis 35:47 It was something about his picture, I don't know what it was, and, um, and everybody at the time was like, "What are you thinking? Why would you get a dog? You can't, you know, can't even take care of yourself. You're overworked and busy, and why would you get a five-month old pit bull mix? You know, why not get an older dog that's easier to take care of?" And, um, for me it was like, I don't, I don't want any dog. I don't want... My intention isn't to get a dog, but there's something about this dog that I have to get, and so I went to see him. Um, and then I had already filled out an application. It was just, I went to see him, and then I... It was the afternoon, and I sort of decided in my head, like, "All right. I'm, I'm coming back to get him. I have to." And so the next morning, I got on the subway and went back to get him, um-... and I was crying on the subway, and I remember thinking that people... I don't like crying in public. I cry a lot, but I don't like crying in front of other (laughs) people.

Lex Fridman 36:47 Yeah.

Sarma Melngailis 36:48 And, um-

Lex Fridman 36:48 I love it.

Sarma Melngailis 36:50 (laughs) I thought, people on the train looking at me probably think that (laughs) , you know, I just... somebody died, or-

Lex Fridman 36:56 I'm sorry, you, you were crying on the way there or on the way back?

Sarma Melngailis 36:59 On the way there, to get him.

Lex Fridman 37:00 Yeah.

Sarma Melngailis 37:01 I don't, and I don't know why I was crying, it was just something about it was overwhelming, so, um-

Lex Fridman 37:05 So tears of happiness, or tears of something?

Sarma Melngailis 37:08 Something. I, yeah. I think tears are overwhelming. I, and now I'm like jumping off, but there was some, I don't r- now I'm try- was it in your conversation or the book? Carl Deissarth talks about tears of joy, and trying to explain them, and he said something about how it was like, about... You know, 'cause tears of sadness could be understood in a, having like a evolutionary purpose, um, but why tears of joy? And I think he said it was something about like hope that could be, like, lost. So if you cried at a wedding, it might be like you're crying because their love is beautiful, and you're crying because, you know, they could get hit by a bus (laughs) tomorrow, or something. You know, like-

Lex Fridman 37:56 Yeah.

Sarma Melngailis 37:56 ... it had something to do with that. And I thought, um, but I thought-

Lex Fridman 38:01 Well, that's the thing.

Sarma Melngailis 38:01 ... to me it feels like overwhelmed, 'cause then how would that explain music? 'Cause music will make me cry. A lot.

Lex Fridman 38:07 No, because it's, it's anything beautiful, like love, you realize you're gonna have, it's gonna be over one day. So you-

Sarma Melngailis 38:16 Or it's just overwhelming.

Lex Fridman 38:18 It could be overwhelming.

Sarma Melngailis 38:19 I think it's just overwhelming, and that-

Lex Fridman 38:20 But over- it could, like if you had to explain... Like, one way to explain it, as you're saying, is it's so awesome that it breaks your heart that it's gonna be over. This feeling is gonna be over. The, either it's the song or the person, you're gonna lose them one day. Or the dog.

Sarma Melngailis 38:39 But even when you're just watching something that... This is completely ridiculous, but I remember one time, I probably was (laughs) hormonal or something, but it was like an episode of Family Feud years ago, and the, the fam- oh no, um, Wheel of Fortune.

Lex Fridman 38:55 Yeah.

Sarma Melngailis 38:55 It was Wheel of Fortune, and some family like won all this money, and they were so happy, like it just... They were so happy, they must probably needed the money or something, and I started crying, and I'm thinking, "Why am I crying?" But I think it's just, I think it's just like an overwhelming, I think it's overwhelming in some way, and crying-

Lex Fridman 39:12 On the surface, on the surface.

Sarma Melngailis 39:12 ... like crying, because crying is a relief. Like, you feel better after you cry.

Lex Fridman 39:17 No, but that's not, doesn't explain the crying. You feel better after you cry, and you're saying it's overwhelming, but that's on the surface. The question is what's going on underneath? That's the Jungian shadow, and I don't think neither you or I can answer that question.

Sarma Melngailis 39:33 Right.

Lex Fridman 39:33 But there's something going on underneath.

Sarma Melngailis 39:34 Right. There's probably something that touches you in some specific way.

Lex Fridman 39:39 Yeah.

Sarma Melngailis 39:39 Um...

Lex Fridman 39:40 And so you were crying on the subway?

Sarma Melngailis 39:42 So I was crying on the subway. Thanks-

Lex Fridman 39:43 It's very, it's a very New York thing to do.

Sarma Melngailis 39:45 Well, yeah. I, well, that's one of the things I love about New York is people... You can be weird and do strange things and nobody's gonna look at you strangely or...

Lex Fridman 39:55 The fascinating thing about New York, it's super crowded, and yet you can still feel super alone.

Sarma Melngailis 40:02 But also energized, 'cause a lot of other things and places m- will make me feel depleted, but there's something about the energy of New York specifically that feels energizing.

Lex Fridman 40:14 I mean, everybody is going about their day, excited for a future they're building and so on, and that, that, that could be energy. (sighs) Sure. Sure. It could be overwhelming though.

Sarma Melngailis 40:28 It can be, yeah. I mean, also depending on what neighborhood, and what part.

Lex Fridman 40:33 Well, I'm just talking about the subway.

Sarma Melngailis 40:35 Right. Yeah.

Lex Fridman 40:36 The subway. And then there's m- the musicians. I love New York. New York at its best is a special place. I've never lived, but every time I visit, it's, it's so many characters, so many fascinating people.

Sarma Melngailis 40:47 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 40:47 And, and then there's a bunch of people always crying in the subway, and you're one of those people.

Sarma Melngailis 40:51 I was one of those people one day. Yeah.

Lex Fridman 40:53 And so you got-

Sarma Melngailis 40:54 I befriended some busking musicians, like the, the guys that just play out on the street. These two young guys playing guitar, and I felt like it was one of those moments where it was like Candid Camera because nobody was paying attention, and I thought it was like... it was so beautiful, I may have cried or almost cried or... Um, but anyway, ended up becoming friends with them and, um, helping them out in some ways, and, um. And I knew, I was like, "Well they're gonna do really well." Um-

Lex Fridman 41:21 Yeah.

Sarma Melngailis 41:22 ... and now they're like playing large places and it's kind of fun to watch via Instagram, you know, they're going on tour in Europe and there were these two scrappy guys. Well, now it's just one of the guys and, um, but they had like no money, nowhere to live, nothing, and, um, now they're-

Lex Fridman 41:43 And they didn't quit?

Sarma Melngailis 41:43 ... they're on tour. No.

Lex Fridman 41:45 Persisted. That's cool.

Sarma Melngailis 41:46 Yeah, exactly. So, um, but I cried on the subway, and I got there and, um, he was there, and I adopted him, but it just felt very profoundly, um, like a force that was beyond me, like I couldn't not get him.

Lex Fridman 42:03 So he was the same in person as he was in the picture? Like meaning in terms of like something like pulling you towards him, like some...

Sarma Melngailis 42:13 Yeah. When I first met him the day before he was really distracted, which I think is, um... You know, he is a puppy that spends most of his day in a cage, which is not natural, so when I... They let him, they let me take him for a walk and he was kinda, you know, distracted and all over the place, but then when we put him back in the cage, he sort of laid down and looked at me, and I looked back at him, and of course I imagined all kinds of... I just looked at him and I thought, "All right, um, don't worry, I'm coming back to get you." Like, "I'll, I'll get you." So.Um, yeah, it just, it felt like, um, it felt like something that I, I had no choice, that I had to do.

Lex Fridman 42:57 And that was the beginning of a 12-year journey together. Okay.

Sarma Melngailis 43:01 An ongoing, an ongoing one. But so I wrote about these things on my website, and, um, and I think it was, you know, among the many things that was later weaponized by, um, Anthony Strangis, just-

Lex Fridman 43:16 Oh, the fact that there's something close to your heart-

Sarma Melngailis 43:18 ... because I was so open about it.

Lex Fridman 43:19 Yeah.

Sarma Melngailis 43:19 Yeah, and also just, and it's not like I believe that he was, you know, that... I was just expressing my feelings about how I felt, going to get him, that there was something about Leon specifically that I, it was like a, I felt like I had to get him. So, um...

Lex Fridman 43:34 Is there words you can put to your connection with Leon? Like, is it love? Is it friendship? Is it some kind of, like what is it? Or, or are we getting to the crying and being overwhelmed, something you just can't put words to?

Sarma Melngailis 43:56 Yeah, it's probably something that's hard to put words to, kind of like, I sort of feel like love being something that's hard to define is part of, is the definition.

Lex Fridman 44:09 (laughs) Of love?

Sarma Melngailis 44:09 The fact that you can't define it, you know, the-

Lex Fridman 44:12 The moment you define it, you're no longer talking about love? (laughs)

Sarma Melngailis 44:15 Sort of, something like that. Um...

Lex Fridman 44:17 Okay.

Sarma Melngailis 44:17 So.

Lex Fridman 44:18 Well, the, my definition of love is whatever's going on in True Romance.

Sarma Melngailis 44:22 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 44:22 I don't know. Let me fly through the timeline

Lex Fridman 44:26 before we get to any of the interesting details. So in, uh, 2011, you meet Anthony Strangis. Then in 2012, you two get married. Uh, 2015, the staff walk out due to failure to pay from the two restaurants. It reopens in April of 2015, and July of that year, there's another walkout, and so on. There's all this kind of stuff.

Sarma Melngailis 44:55 That's a confusing timeline.

Lex Fridman 44:56 It, it, well, it's not, to me, that's not even...

Sarma Melngailis 44:59 (laughs)

Lex Fridman 44:59 The point is, in 2015, there's chaos happening. Okay. Uh, 2016, in the spring, Pure Foods & Wine closes.

Sarma Melngailis 45:09 It closed in, um, 2015.

Lex Fridman 45:12 2015, okay. There's some factual stuff that's not, yeah, maybe correct me on it, to me, it's not that important. To me, the spirit of the thing is important.

Sarma Melngailis 45:21 Mm-hmm.

Lex Fridman 45:21 Okay. May 12th, 2016, you and your then husband, Anthony Strangis, were arrested after he ordered pizza using his real name.

Sarma Melngailis 45:32 (laughs)

Lex Fridman 45:32 Okay. In May 2017, you pleaded guilty to stealing more than two million dollars from investors and scheming to defraud as well as, this is from Wikipedia, uh...

Sarma Melngailis 45:44 Yeah, they're wrong.

Lex Fridman 45:46 Well, let me just finish reading it-

Sarma Melngailis 45:47 Yeah. (laughs)

Lex Fridman 45:47 ... and then you tell me why it's wrong. "In May 2017, you pleaded guilty to stealing more than two million dollars from investors and scheming to defraud, as well as criminal tax fraud charges." Why is Wikipedia wrong? And how dare you?

Sarma Melngailis 46:00 (laughs) Well, it depends, I mean, I did plead guilty to those things, which, um, I had to, oh, I was, I, I got a jury duty summons, and I had to fill out, like, what charges I pled guilty to. Um, and I had to go online and look it up because I didn't really remember, which is, I thought that was interesting. (laughs) I had to go look it up, but...

Lex Fridman 46:21 Well, actually, let me finish the timer 'cause there's one more point.

Sarma Melngailis 46:23 Oh, yeah.

Lex Fridman 46:25 March 16th, 2022, Bad Vegan documentary comes out where you're interviewed, there's, they tell the story.

Sarma Melngailis 46:34 Mm-hmm.

Lex Fridman 46:35 Some stuff is true, someti- some is not, some is disturbingly misleading, as you said. Okay, timeline over. Anyway, what, what's wrong with the, um, um, how would you elaborate onto the, you pleading guilty for two million dollars stealing?

Sarma Melngailis 46:51 So, a lot of people plead guilty when they're, for reasons other than they're actually guilty. So, you know, it's, even right now, if I knew that I was gonna have to spend four months or three and a half, um, at Rikers, and I was thinking about this recently, and even if I knew that I'd be acquitted at the end of a trial, I very likely would've just taken the four months because, um, you know, the stress of going through a trial, but in particular, it'd be incredibly stressful not knowing the outcome. Um, and then money and expense I didn't have, and so, you know, people plead guilty all the time, even if they don't think that they, that they should. Um, and my situation was so complicated and hard to understand that it just was the easier thing to do. But also I just was kind of going on the advice of lawyers and, um...

Lex Fridman 47:52 So the, the choice, just so I understand-

Sarma Melngailis 47:55 Mm-hmm.

Lex Fridman 47:55 ... was to plead guilty or to go through a lengthy trial.

Sarma Melngailis 47:59 Mm-hmm.

Lex Fridman 48:00 And that trial would stretch, uh, a long time and it would be extremely stressful and-

Sarma Melngailis 48:07 And extremely expensive.

Lex Fridman 48:09 ... because you have to pay the lawyers.

Sarma Melngailis 48:10 Right, and I didn't have anything.

Lex Fridman 48:12 Right. And so, a lot of people in that situation might choose to plead guilty. And so, that doesn't necessarily mean the full heaviness of that statement of guilt.

Sarma Melngailis 48:25 Right, and I think people plead guilty all the time in situations where they're being threatened with, uh, like a heavy sentence, um, and they sort of feel like they have no choice, but that's kind of part of a lot of things that are messed up about the system overall that didn't necessarily apply in my case, but...

Lex Fridman 48:44 So we'll talk about to what degree you're guilty.... and what that even means.

Sarma Melngailis 48:50 Yeah. Yeah.

Lex Fridman 48:51 (sighs)

Sarma Melngailis 48:51 'Cause it, it, 'cause it depends on intention, I think. Um...

Lex Fridman 48:57 Yeah.

Sarma Melngailis 48:58 Um-

Lex Fridman 48:58 Yeah, yeah. But then the word intention also means a lot of things, like the word love.

Sarma Melngailis 49:04 That's true.

Lex Fridman 49:05 Um, all right.

Sarma Melngailis 49:07 So, the restaurant closed the first time, um, when I was away and told to be off communication. Um, and then I-

Lex Fridman 49:19 By Anthony?

Sarma Melngailis 49:20 Yes. And then, um-

Lex Fridman 49:22 He told you not to talk to anybody?

Sarma Melngailis 49:24 He told me not to, like, open email or look at my phone or whatever.

Lex Fridman 49:28 Okay.

Sarma Melngailis 49:28 Um, and so when I came back and had to get it reopened, which seemed like an unbelievably difficult task, and I was kind of shocked that I was able to pull it off. Um, you know, I, I worked incredibly hard to get it reopened. And, you know, because that place meant, meant everything to me, and so I just, like, I just had to get it reopened.

Lex Fridman 49:56 Were you surrounded by people who were just angry at you?

Sarma Melngailis 49:59 At that time? Not-

Lex Fridman 50:00 Yeah.

Sarma Melngailis 50:00 Well ... God.

Lex Fridman 50:02 Just the staff and all that person.

Sarma Melngailis 50:03 Yeah, but most of them came back. A lot of them came back. I think what was so unbelievably painful about that whole time, um, was, like, not being able to tell anybody what was really going on and, in a sense, not really knowing what was going on myself, but not being able to ... Like, having to pretend all the time was just, like, soul-crushing.

Lex Fridman 50:24 So you didn't really tell anybody about Anthony?

Sarma Melngailis 50:27 About him and what was really going on, in part because I didn't really understand what was going on.

Lex Fridman 50:32 Yeah.

Sarma Melngailis 50:32 So what I did was I raised money to reopen the restaurant, and I think I raised something like eight, maybe like 900 grand. Um, and probably 90% of that went to reopen the restaurant. Um, and I even made two, um, sales tax payments right before we disappeared. So it just sort of logically seemed like ... So I didn't... It's not like all of this money was taken and then he and I ran off together with a whole bunch of money. It was like I raised a bunch of money to reopen the restaurant, you know, because I wanted the restaurant to exist again and I wanted to, you know, I wanted to run it. I wanted to, to reopen the restaurant. And, um, most of that money went to reopen the restaurant, and then I disappeared. So, um, sort of the, the timeline gets a bit wonky. So it's, you know, this impression was created that we ran off with a whole bunch of money, and, and we didn't. So, you know, if I wanted to be a criminal and steal a bunch of money, why would I have put it all back into the restaurant and reopened it and then also made two $10,000 sales tax payments that I didn't, you know? And I also repaid, um, you know, $10,000 of another loan. I'm, you know, I was making repayments and stuff, and then boom, I disappear.

Lex Fridman 51:59 So is your mind going through a rollercoaster here? So could there have been multiple yous there? So one, one mind is like, "I love this restaurant. I'm going to reopen it. I'm this, um, chef, business owner, this person," and then the other, the other is a human that's in this, uh, complicated love affair? Uh-

Sarma Melngailis 52:23 It wasn't a love affair.

Lex Fridman 52:24 Okay.

Sarma Melngailis 52:25 (laughs)

Lex Fridman 52:26 Th- these are just words. How can I... Okay, what ... I, uh, um-

Sarma Melngailis 52:30 What? I-

Lex Fridman 52:30 I don't want to, uh, lo- I say that lightly, uh, but also not, because love can make us do dark things.

Sarma Melngailis 52:39 Mm-hmm.

Lex Fridman 52:39 And you could say that's not love, but okay. (laughs) The thing that traps us, the things that pulls us in to a connection with another human being, that's love, even when it's abusive and dark and toxic and all those kinds of things. What-

Sarma Melngailis 52:55 In some cases, I think, like if it's voluntary, but in other cases, um, somebody pulls you in. So it's not like you're drawn towards them. They, they pull you in.

Lex Fridman 53:06 So just to clarify, even when it's not physical, when it's, when the pull is with words, so it's emotional?

Sarma Melngailis 53:14 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 53:15 Okay. Where is your mind when you raise $800,000 to $900,000 to open the restaurant, working your ass off to open this thing, okay? Making payments and then all of a sudden disappearing. What, where was your mind? Um, if, if you had a lengthy conversation with Karl Deisseroth in privacy, what would you be telling him as your therapist?

Sarma Melngailis 53:43 I would probably be asking him questions.

Lex Fridman 53:45 Okay. No.

Sarma Melngailis 53:46 Um-

Lex Fridman 53:46 Forget Karl is part of this. (laughs)

Sarma Melngailis 53:48 Well, and actually, I have more questions for Andrew Huberman because-

Lex Fridman 53:53 Yeah.

Sarma Melngailis 53:53 ... you know, I, I've had to investigate all of these things myself, like dissociation. Um, and even, there, there's a psychologist who believes that he must have used neurolinguistic programming on me, which is something that Keith Raniere from the NXIVM cult-

Lex Fridman 54:11 Mm-hmm.

Sarma Melngailis 54:11 He was known to have used that with people. Um, and I think neurolinguistic programming is kind of the same as, like, a sort of, like, hypnotism.

Lex Fridman 54:20 The only reason I know about n- what NLP is-

Sarma Melngailis 54:23 Uh-huh.

Lex Fridman 54:23 ... is because in, in what I do, there's something called natural language processing, artificial intelligence stuff, so it has the same, uh, like three letters.

Sarma Melngailis 54:32 Right.

Lex Fridman 54:32 Uh, uh, what was the other thing that NLP, neurolinguistic programming?

Sarma Melngailis 54:36 Neurolinguistic programming.

Lex Fridman 54:37 Programming, yeah. Anyway, all right, well, uh, we, we talked about Andrew, my friend Andrew Huberman offline, and you definitely shou- you should do a podcast with him. Uh, he's a, he's a fascinating ... He's such a brilliant and kind human being, uh-

Sarma Melngailis 54:51 I-

Lex Fridman 54:51 ... definitely worth talking to.

Sarma Melngailis 54:52 Yeah, I've listened to a lot of-... a lot of his back-

Lex Fridman 54:54 And, and you said that you listened to a lot of his instructions on getting light in the morning or whatever during the day, it's very important for your, um, mental... Like, there's all these kinds of studies, it's good for your, for your mind, for your...

Sarma Melngailis 55:10 Oh, and also the other thing he got me to do is to try to delay having coffee. So instead of having coffee right when you wake up-

Lex Fridman 55:16 Yeah.

Sarma Melngailis 55:16 I always drink a lot of water first.

Lex Fridman 55:18 Yeah.

Sarma Melngailis 55:18 But then, um, instead of having coffee right away, if you wait an hour or an hour and a half or two hours, then your body is able to naturally do something that drinking coffee too soon would sort of blunt that, so then you'll be more tired in the afternoon. So if you wait an hour and a half or two hours, or as long... You know, before you have your first cup of coffee, then you won't be as tired in the afternoon.

Lex Fridman 55:42 Interesting.

Sarma Melngailis 55:43 Um, there's a lot of-

Lex Fridman 55:44 Does it work?

Sarma Melngailis 55:45 Yes.

Lex Fridman 55:46 One coffee addict talking to another coffee addict.

Sarma Melngailis 55:48 Yes, it works. And so I try to get up and do other things first, um, before I have coffee. Um, so... And the light thing also makes a lot of sense to me, um, getting light early in the morning. I have a, one of those bright light boxes.

Lex Fridman 56:06 Mm-hmm.

Sarma Melngailis 56:07 Um, and I would love to have an apartment that had a little deck or something where I could just step outside, 'cause when you live in an apartment, you kinda have to, like, go all the way outside and then there's people everywhere. And so to, to get that early morning light isn't that hard to do when you're-

Lex Fridman 56:22 Are, are, are people good for you or bad for you? The, what does Andrew Huberman say about that? I'm just kidding. It's a joke.

Sarma Melngailis 56:27 Okay. (laughs)

Lex Fridman 56:28 Okay. Uh, so mo- moving back to where was your mind that led you to disappear to... Did you guys go to Vegas first and then T- Tennessee?

Sarma Melngailis 56:35 No. I kind of refer to it as, like, the road trip from hell.

Lex Fridman 56:39 That's a very Hunter S. Thompson way to describe it.

Sarma Melngailis 56:41 Right.

Lex Fridman 56:41 It's bad... You went back, you, to, to bad country.

Sarma Melngailis 56:44 Maybe it was sort of Hunter S. Thompson-esque, except without actual drugs. Um-

Lex Fridman 56:50 Hmm.

Sarma Melngailis 56:51 That was one of the first questions my father asked me was, "Was it drugs?" And I wished that I could have said yes-

Lex Fridman 56:57 Yeah.

Sarma Melngailis 56:57 ... 'cause I didn't know how to explain what had happened. Um, but-

Lex Fridman 57:02 So road trip from hell-

Sarma Melngailis 57:03 He took me away involuntarily, except, you know, of course he wasn't holding a gun to my head. But all along, it was like a metaphorical gun.

Lex Fridman 57:13 Was there ever physical abuse?

Sarma Melngailis 57:17 Um, no. What would qualify as sexual abuse, yes. Um, but physically, no. A couple of times, we would get into slightly physical fights, but he never, um... I mean, he was big and as large and blubbery (laughs) as he was, he was, he was also really strong.

Lex Fridman 57:42 Mm-hmm.

Sarma Melngailis 57:43 So sometimes he would, like, subdue me, but other than that, no, there wasn't physical violence, but a lot of people will say that, um, the psychological violence is, um... I don't wanna diminish physical violence, but some people say that the psychological and emotional violence is more destructive.

Lex Fridman 58:03 It's just that the physical violence is easier to identify.

Sarma Melngailis 58:06 It's easier to identify and, and it seems kind of more straightforward.

Lex Fridman 58:10 Yeah.

Sarma Melngailis 58:10 Whereas psychological, you know, and you have a bruise on your face or you break a bone and th- those things hopefully heal in a visible way, but psychological stuff, you know, you, you can't easily identify or understand, or others can't easily identify it.

Lex Fridman 58:27 And then you find yourself crying for no reason at a beautiful song at some point.

Sarma Melngailis 58:32 Yes.

Lex Fridman 58:33 And it's, that, that has to do something happening in the depth of your mind. Okay, so he took you away, but where was the, I mean, where was your mind that was doing both of those things, was able to be taken away, but also was pushing to the s- the, the, the flourishing, the reopening and the flourishing of the restaurant?

Sarma Melngailis 58:55 Well, you know, I wouldn't have reopened the restaurant with, and then knowing I was gonna all of a sudden be taken away from it and it was gonna get closed again. You know, it was like, "Why, why would I do that? Why would anybody do that?" Um, and one of the things that I tried to do towards the end was, I was trying to get myself off the bank accounts because I didn't want him to be able to get money out of me, and so there was, uh, one time when I tried to get one of the investors, we went to the bank together to put her on as a signer and take me off, and because we didn't have the operating agreement, they wouldn't let us do it, so it was like this little snafu. And, um, so all, all of these things are sort of the opposite of criminal intent.

Lex Fridman 59:38 But that's a, that's a legal thing. What's, what's going on in your mind at this time?

Sarma Melngailis 59:43 I don't know. I mean-

Lex Fridman 59:45 Were you, were you... Oh, did you give yourself a chance to just think?

Sarma Melngailis 59:51 No. And I think that's part of... One of the things that might have saved me or anybody that's pulled into a cult, one of the things that they do is they keep you exhausted, overwhelmed, confused, and afraid, um, and so you don't have any time to think. So you're just kind of constantly running and you're confused and then things are happening. It's funny, there's a, I have some quotes in my book draft because I listen to a lot of podcasts, I ha- I don't know what the logistics are of, like, crediting a quote from a podcast in a book-

Lex Fridman 1:00:24 (laughs) Yeah.

Sarma Melngailis 1:00:24 ... but I have a couple. I think it was, um, Andrew Huberman on Joe Rogan said something about, um, uh, if a animal, if a human or animal, I don't know how he would know, if a human or animal is stressed, um... And I'm paraphrasing this horribly, but-

Lex Fridman 1:00:44 Yeah.

Sarma Melngailis 1:00:44 ... they're, they're much more easily prone to, um, be... Not prone to, but forced into delusional thinking. Um, and so that quote resonated for me because, you know, he kept me in this incredibly stressed out, afraid, confused state, and then whatever he's sort of planting in my mind, I'm gonna be that much more likely to just-... kind of go along with it.

Lex Fridman 1:01:07 Well, we'll see how this whole journey,

Lex Fridman 1:01:10 uh, ends. Let's actually just step back a little bit, and just looking at the employees of the restaurant and so on.

Sarma Melngailis 1:01:15 Mm-hmm.

Lex Fridman 1:01:16 Do you have remorse for what happened? Especially from the perspective of the employees and the staff?

Sarma Melngailis 1:01:22 Yeah. I mean, hurting them was sort of the last thing that I would ever have wanted to do. And in part, I mean, there was financial harm. Um, but, um, I don't, I don't know whether it's more important or not, but, you know, it was taking a place that was very much like a family to them, um, and it was as if I destroyed it. And so I think that because we were so much like a family, it was almost as if, like, Mom went off the deep end and got together with some cuckoo, abusive guy, and, and sort of abandoned them. And they didn't know what was going on and what was happening. And...

Lex Fridman 1:02:05 So do you regret lying to them?

Sarma Melngailis 1:02:08 I regret lying to anybody in all of those circumstances. But, uh, I wasn't lying, you know, he made me think that, you know, everything was gonna be reversed and okay, and anybody that money was borrowed from, they would get it back, you know, maybe tenfold. And so it was this weird situation of having, like, one foot in his reality and potentially believing the things he was saying, or even, over time, wanting to believe them more and more because the alternative was so, um, the alternative was worse. The alternative was, like, was increasingly a bigger and bigger nightmare. So...

Lex Fridman 1:02:54 So there's this whole situation where you're constantly giving him money, you're constantly borrowing and borrowing money, with this idea that it'll be repaid, like, 100X fold.

Sarma Melngailis 1:03:05 Right.

Lex Fridman 1:03:05 Kind of like, yeah.

Sarma Melngailis 1:03:07 So it's sort of like lying to somebody because you're planning their surprise party. You think, like-

Lex Fridman 1:03:10 Yeah.

Sarma Melngailis 1:03:10 ... "Well, I'm lying to somebody, but I'm, but it's because there's a good reason."

Lex Fridman 1:03:16 Yeah.

Sarma Melngailis 1:03:16 You know, it's sort of, that's not a good example, but...

Lex Fridman 1:03:19 No, but you could have not made it a surprise party, and be like, pull 'em in onto the planning of the party, and be honest about, like, everything that's happening. Not in a negative way, but, like, get them in on the fact that, "Okay, I just need to give money to this guy, but we'll get, he is a super rich person of some kind, and he'll, um, repay."

Sarma Melngailis 1:03:47 I mean, I wish I, well...

Lex Fridman 1:03:50 'Cause you're holding onto this-

Sarma Melngailis 1:03:51 The entire time, I mean that, that's part of the torture is that you're isolated and unable, unable to tell anybody.

Lex Fridman 1:03:59 But you're not unable, or he was telling you you're not allowed to say anything to anybody. I mean, you're choosing not to say anything, but it's because of the, sort of the weight of it. 'Cause it's embarrassing to sort of, is it embarrassing? It's something. I mean, what, why do you not tell others? You know?

Sarma Melngailis 1:04:18 Um-

Lex Fridman 1:04:18 What, what is that? What's, what, what's happening to the mind where you don't tell others?

Sarma Melngailis 1:04:23 I don't know. You're, part of why the story, uh, you know, everything that happened is hard to summarize and talk about in any concise way is that so much of it happens in this very slow, slow, slow-

Lex Fridman 1:04:37 Step by step.

Sarma Melngailis 1:04:38 ... way. And, um, you know, people always use the whole, like, frog and boiling water example. Um, so that by the time you realize you're fucked, it's too late.

Lex Fridman 1:04:48 Mm-hmm.

Sarma Melngailis 1:04:49 Um, and it, and it seems hard to believe or understand to other people because they see where you are or where you ended up, and they think, "Well, how did you let that happen?" And, well, I don't know. I-

Lex Fridman 1:05:01 Yeah.

Sarma Melngailis 1:05:01 I, would I-

Lex Fridman 1:05:02 Stuff like that.

Sarma Melngailis 1:05:02 ... have willingly destroyed my life and hurt all the people I care about and, you know, allowed my mother to get hurt and, I wouldn't have ev- ever willingly done that. So something else must have happened, and that's, um, that's the part that's difficult to understand.

Lex Fridman 1:05:17 Let me ask you about another hard question.

Sarma Melngailis 1:05:20 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 1:05:20 Do you deserve most or all of the blame for the failure of the business? Or are others at fault too?

Sarma Melngailis 1:05:29 Well, the business didn't fail. It was doing well, and so-

Lex Fridman 1:05:34 It closed.

Sarma Melngailis 1:05:34 ... its closing-

Lex Fridman 1:05:36 Closing.

Sarma Melngailis 1:05:36 ... is like it was destroyed.

Lex Fridman 1:05:39 And who deserves the blame for that? I'm asking from your perspective, when you think about it, in, in the privacy of your mind, are you angry at Anthony? Are you angry at yourself?

Sarma Melngailis 1:05:53 Both. I think that, um, in the privacy (laughs) of my own mind, and to everybody listening-

Lex Fridman 1:06:01 (laughs)

Sarma Melngailis 1:06:01 ... um, it's (laughs) , i- it's, I feel responsible.

Lex Fridman 1:06:06 Yeah.

Sarma Melngailis 1:06:06 I feel responsible in the same way that if you kind of did something, if you were driving and you did something stupid and caused an accident in which other people died, you would feel, I think, horrifically responsible and you'd blame yourself 'cause maybe you looked away or checked your phone or something. Um, but it, you didn't intend to kill those people, of course. So for me, it's like, I didn't intend to kill, you know, sometimes I say, like, my own child. I don't know if that's offensive to some people, but it's like as if I killed my own-

Lex Fridman 1:06:42 It's a business. Yeah.

Sarma Melngailis 1:06:43 ... child. It was, it was a, was a business, but it was special. Um, so I don't feel guilt, I feel responsibility, and then, um, you know, I'm angry at, at him, even though that anger is pointless.

Lex Fridman 1:07:03 Okay. Because this has come up,

Lex Fridman 1:07:05 let's continue, uh, with the hard questions.

Sarma Melngailis 1:07:09 Mm-hmm.Are they gonna get easier? (laughs)

Lex Fridman 1:07:11 They're gonna get easier.

Sarma Melngailis 1:07:12 Okay. (laughs)

Lex Fridman 1:07:12 (laughs) Most of them are easy. Um, this is- this is fun. We're having fun. You posted on Instagram, "The ending..."

Sarma Melngailis 1:07:22 (laughs)

Lex Fridman 1:07:22 No, I'm gonna cite Instagram like it's Shakespeare, okay?

Sarma Melngailis 1:07:25 Okay.

Lex Fridman 1:07:26 "The ending is disturbingly misleading, but still I'm very grateful for this coverage," it's talking about the documentary, qu- in quotes, "documentary." "I'm okay with the criticism and judgment but would rather it be based on what's true." And then you say a couple of more sentences, and then you say, "Leon," who has his own Instagram account.

Sarma Melngailis 1:07:47 Yes, he does.

Lex Fridman 1:07:47 @1luckyrescuedog says, "Hello." He loves you all, "even if you call me a," quote, "defective, arrogant sociopath." It's all okay. So, the hard question. Do you think you are in part a sociopath?

Sarma Melngailis 1:08:05 No.

Lex Fridman 1:08:06 Would you know it if you were?

Sarma Melngailis 1:08:07 Yes.

Lex Fridman 1:08:07 How does this work? So what have you learned from reading this book? (laughs)

Sarma Melngailis 1:08:10 I had all these interesting thoughts abou- uh, all these sort of questions and thoughts about it because, um, the book I'm reading now, that I'm only about a third of the way through, she talks about, um, some of the things in the brain structure that are particular to sociopaths. And so then it makes you think, well, what if that could be tweaked in some way? Like, could you un-sociopath a sociopath?

Lex Fridman 1:08:34 Is it nature or nurture, like, I suppose is the question?

Sarma Melngailis 1:08:37 I think it's both. Um, I think it's genetic and then it's, like, genes that are turned on if-

Lex Fridman 1:08:42 Mm-hmm.

Sarma Melngailis 1:08:43 Um, by things like a particularly violent childhood, or some sort of a dysfunction. So, I think somebody could have the gene, it's not turned on, and then, um, the sociopaths have the gene and it's turned on. So...

Lex Fridman 1:09:00 So sociopath means that you're not able to be empathetic, or you're generally not empathetic to the- to the suffering of others, or to the mo- emotions of other? I mean, what, uh-

Sarma Melngailis 1:09:10 It's a hollowness.

Lex Fridman 1:09:11 Yeah.

Sarma Melngailis 1:09:11 So it's like you don't have, um... just completely lacking the capacity. I mean, it's tragic because they wouldn't understand or feel love, but it's like a hollowness. Um, and- and then something also about the wiring, and I think also because of that hollowness, they're able to incredibly quickly look at others and identify their insecurities, and buttons, and weak spots. So they're incredibly good at manipulation.

Lex Fridman 1:09:47 Is that because they're just able to o- objectively observe the situation? I w- I wonder wha- what-

Sarma Melngailis 1:09:53 Probably in part, but there was some other explanation related to the brain structure that I read somewhere that made sense to me, and I won't, like, remember it, 'cause I don't usually...

Lex Fridman 1:10:02 You're not Andrew Huberman who seems to reference-

Sarma Melngailis 1:10:04 No. Like, I'll listen to his pod-

Lex Fridman 1:10:05 ... perfectly-

Sarma Melngailis 1:10:06 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 1:10:06 ... every single line from every book or- or paper he's ever read. Yes.

Sarma Melngailis 1:10:10 Right. I don't remember things in that way.

Lex Fridman 1:10:12 In a single book.

Sarma Melngailis 1:10:12 I try to usually remember the conclusions.

Lex Fridman 1:10:14 Right.

Sarma Melngailis 1:10:15 So, like, I might remember that he- he might give a whole long explanation about why it's good to do this or to take this supplement. That's a bad habit I have. Sometimes I'll order supplements, and then by the time they arrive, I've forgotten why. (laughs)

Lex Fridman 1:10:28 Why?

Sarma Melngailis 1:10:28 I forgot why-

Lex Fridman 1:10:29 Just take 'em all.

Sarma Melngailis 1:10:30 ... I'm supposed to take 'em. (laughs)

Lex Fridman 1:10:30 Sarah Thompson, but the healthy version.

Sarma Melngailis 1:10:32 I hope we get to talk about food, 'cause I feel like-

Lex Fridman 1:10:35 Yes, fluff.

Sarma Melngailis 1:10:35 ... you have a brain that should be fed only the best food.

Lex Fridman 1:10:40 Oh, wow.

Sarma Melngailis 1:10:40 So we can talk about that later.

Lex Fridman 1:10:41 I have a lot of philosophies about that. But certainly fluff is not w- and the best, what is best. We'll definitely talk about food. Um, throughout, what is best. Um, (laughs) that makes me think of Conan.

Sarma Melngailis 1:10:56 (laughs)

Lex Fridman 1:10:57 And I just talked to Oliver Stone, who I didn't realize wrote Conan the Barbarian. Uh...

Sarma Melngailis 1:11:03 Do you know that in my head, I- I pictured Conan O'Brien, that's what... (laughs) So...

Lex Fridman 1:11:08 (laughs) He- he's also one of the funniest-

Sarma Melngailis 1:11:08 And I- I was sitting there going, "Wait, why is..." I love him, but I-

Lex Fridman 1:11:11 I love him very much.

Sarma Melngailis 1:11:11 ... when you said that I was like, "Why did that make you think of Conan O'Brien?"

Lex Fridman 1:11:15 Yeah.

Sarma Melngailis 1:11:16 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 1:11:16 I love him so much. Ah, he's such a brilliant human.

Sarma Melngailis 1:11:19 Yeah. Sociopathy.

Lex Fridman 1:11:23 Sociopathy.

Sarma Melngailis 1:11:24 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 1:11:25 So, stuff about the brain, fine, but how do you know you're not a sociopath? Would you know it... How- am I a sociopath?

Sarma Melngailis 1:11:33 No.

Lex Fridman 1:11:33 How would I know it? How do you- how do you know?

Sarma Melngailis 1:11:36 Well, having listened to a lot.

Lex Fridman 1:11:38 But wouldn't I be able to be good at faking it? Isn't that what...

Sarma Melngailis 1:11:41 Well, because you'd be out there-

Lex Fridman 1:11:42 The- there's a mask on the cover of this book with lipstick-

Sarma Melngailis 1:11:44 ... I don't think you would be doing the work that you're doing.

Lex Fridman 1:11:46 I don't wear lipstick.

Sarma Melngailis 1:11:47 You'd probably be running for office, or, you know, a trader on Wall Street, or... One of the things about sociopaths is they, um, they kind of need, like, the stimulation of risk and danger. Um...

Lex Fridman 1:12:02 Well, uh, uh, need. Okay, sure. I like it.

Sarma Melngailis 1:12:06 More than average.

Lex Fridman 1:12:07 I like... Hmm. Okay. But Wall Street, there's a fakeness. Like, I don't like the fakeness of Wall- the game of it.

Sarma Melngailis 1:12:15 Yeah, that's why I left. I didn't- I just- it was a strange environment.

Lex Fridman 1:12:21 Okay. So you're not- you're not a, quote, "defective, arrogant sociopath." What does defective even mean?

Sarma Melngailis 1:12:28 I know- well, I think that somebody had just called me that, and I think that-

Lex Fridman 1:12:31 Yeah.

Sarma Melngailis 1:12:31 ... you know, it's easy for people to say, like, "Don't read the comments," but it's hard not to, 'cause then also you'd miss the beautiful ones.

Lex Fridman 1:12:40 Yeah.

Sarma Melngailis 1:12:41 Um, or sometimes, like, you have to go on there to- to check a private message, and you just, stuff... it's there. People saying terrible things. So, um, I try to... people say, you know, "Don't pay attention to the comments." It's hard not to, but I try to.

Lex Fridman 1:12:58 Even with a documentary you tried to still kinda see, to look- to look for the- for the good ones, for the kind ones, for the supportive ones?

Sarma Melngailis 1:13:09 Well, there were overwhelming kind comments, and so that- that-... helped and felt a lot better. But sometimes, um, it- sometimes the- the negative comments are based on, you know- or they're based on false information. So if somebody under- so if somebody knew everything that happened and then wanted to judge me or say things, like, that's somehow ... At least that's all right. But, um-

Lex Fridman 1:13:34 So you think-

Sarma Melngailis 1:13:34 ... people saying these things based on, um, things that are totally false is just-

Lex Fridman 1:13:40 Yeah.

Sarma Melngailis 1:13:41 Mm, it's hard. It's- it's hard to just let that go. Um ... (sighs)

Lex Fridman 1:13:48 Yeah, but you-

Sarma Melngailis 1:13:49 But I know that people also say things, you know, for their own personal reasons. I had a fascinating exchange with somebody who direct messaged me and s- called me trash. Um ...

Lex Fridman 1:14:01 And you responded?

Sarma Melngailis 1:14:03 I responded 'cause it was-

Lex Fridman 1:14:04 I- we- (laughs)

Sarma Melngailis 1:14:05 No, it was amazing.

Lex Fridman 1:14:07 Yeah, okay.

Sarma Melngailis 1:14:08 So I would do this once in a while.

Lex Fridman 1:14:08 It's a good opener.

Sarma Melngailis 1:14:09 It's sort of like a ... I might be procrastinating or- but I would scroll through ... 'Cause the private messages were overwhelming, and there's still just this massive backlog that I'll never probably get to read.

Lex Fridman 1:14:22 But the one that called you trash as a- as a pickup- as an opener, you are like, "This is interesting."

Sarma Melngailis 1:14:28 I just was in a mood.

Lex Fridman 1:14:29 Yeah.

Sarma Melngailis 1:14:29 And so I responded e- and I wish I hadn't deleted it 'cause I- I sort of deleted a bunch, and then I was like, "Oh, why did I delete that one?" 'Cause I was curious what exactly I said to him. But I responded to him, um, in a nice way, and then he responded back, and then it started this whole back and forth conversation, um-

Lex Fridman 1:14:49 So he was kind quickly, or no?

Sarma Melngailis 1:14:51 Yes. And then also, like, wanted to get to know me, and lives in Pennsylvania, and was like, "I'll come to New York." And I'm like-

Lex Fridman 1:14:57 Yeah.

Sarma Melngailis 1:14:58 You realize if we, uh, you know, if somehow this just turned into-

Lex Fridman 1:15:02 Yeah.

Sarma Melngailis 1:15:02 Like, that would be our how-did-you-meet story. Well, he called me trash (laughs) online.

Lex Fridman 1:15:07 Yeah. That's a pretty good-

Sarma Melngailis 1:15:07 But-

Lex Fridman 1:15:08 Yeah.

Sarma Melngailis 1:15:08 He ended up having such an insightful comment. (laughs) I just found it interesting, and I think he-

Lex Fridman 1:15:14 Yeah.

Sarma Melngailis 1:15:14 First he said, "I never imagined you'd reply." Which is-

Lex Fridman 1:15:17 Yeah.

Sarma Melngailis 1:15:17 You know, it's like part of the whole thing with social media. Although this guy wasn't anonymous. Um ...

Lex Fridman 1:15:22 Was not anonymous?

Sarma Melngailis 1:15:23 No. He had a- I think he had a private account. But it's like his name and his face was there.

Lex Fridman 1:15:28 And people forget that you're a human being when they message you.

Sarma Melngailis 1:15:30 Exactly.

Lex Fridman 1:15:31 Folks, when you message me, I'm a human being.

Sarma Melngailis 1:15:34 So I told him that that was- you know, like the- that that was hurtful.

Lex Fridman 1:15:38 Yeah.

Sarma Melngailis 1:15:39 And, um, and I guess I wanted to understand more why he said it. And it was surprisingly insightful, but he said something about- again, I wish I hadn't deleted it. That he, um, he was like, "I guess I was just angry because, um," like that guy ... He- he said something like, "I guess I was just angry 'cause that guy got you, and ..."

Lex Fridman 1:16:04 Oh, wow.

Sarma Melngailis 1:16:05 I would have-

Lex Fridman 1:16:05 That's crazy.

Sarma Melngailis 1:16:05 You know. So it made me think of the whole, like, sort of incel jealousy thing that can be very terrifying if you're female. Is that like-

Lex Fridman 1:16:16 I see.

Sarma Melngailis 1:16:16 If you reject a guy, they might turn around and be violent or angry at you.

Lex Fridman 1:16:22 Yeah.

Sarma Melngailis 1:16:23 And, um, so his-

Lex Fridman 1:16:25 Well, to be fair, there's a dormant anger in probably all of us.

Sarma Melngailis 1:16:29 Yes.

Lex Fridman 1:16:30 I- I believe there's a capacity for cruelty and anger and destruction in all of us. And the whole struggle of life is to, uh, emphasize the good stuff.

Sarma Melngailis 1:16:40 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 1:16:41 Yeah. So it's not just an incel thing. It's true for men and women. Both-

Sarma Melngailis 1:16:46 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 1:16:46 ... capable of cruelty.

Sarma Melngailis 1:16:48 That's- that is very true.

Lex Fridman 1:16:49 But this one guy ... So let me put on my therapist hat 'cause we- we s- we started ... What did we start with? Um, I already forgot. But the- the- oh, Leon.

Sarma Melngailis 1:17:00 Keep coming back to sociopaths. Leon.

Lex Fridman 1:17:02 No, the- the (laughs) no, just, um, you know, maybe it's not the best idea to answer comments that start with, "You're trash."

Sarma Melngailis 1:17:11 I don't do it all the time, it just- I happened upon that one-

Lex Fridman 1:17:13 In that mood.

Sarma Melngailis 1:17:13 ... and I was just in a certain mood. I was just in a certain mood.

Lex Fridman 1:17:16 Well, the- let's- let's-

Sarma Melngailis 1:17:17 And- and I like to turn those.

Lex Fridman 1:17:18 ... further offline sort of-

Sarma Melngailis 1:17:20 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 1:17:20 ... um, discuss this mood that you're in 'cause it might get you in trouble at some point in your future.

Sarma Melngailis 1:17:27 Okay.

Lex Fridman 1:17:27 Okay. (laughs)

Lex Fridman 1:17:30 Uh, so, um, can we just jump back? Speaking of, um, guys that say as an opener, "You're trash." How did you and Anthony Strangis meet? Can we jump around and tell some of the details here? 'Cause that- I believe the documentary doesn't cover that that well. It's not clear. There's some Twitter interactions, and you've kind of assumed, um ... By the way, I do think you need some social media coaching on this because I think, you know, um ... I- I, you know- I have- I have some, uh, uh, books you need to read, I think. Uh, some manuals on how to use Twitter properly.

Sarma Melngailis 1:18:08 Mm-hmm.

Lex Fridman 1:18:08 But anyway, the- the- apparently you kind of thought that this person, uh, who turned out to be- what was his name? Shane? He called himself Shane Fox, but he turned out to be Anthony Strangis. That he was somehow friends with Alec Baldwin because of their friendly interaction on Twitter.

Sarma Melngailis 1:18:24 Mm-hmm.

Lex Fridman 1:18:24 And so you started interacting wi- with him.

Sarma Melngailis 1:18:26 Mm-hmm.

Lex Fridman 1:18:27 And then there was- how did that escalate quickly to, um- to meeting-

Sarma Melngailis 1:18:32 It escalated slowly. And I think, um, I'm sure it was intentional because had I met him right away, I would have probably thought like, "Oh, he's not what I thought he was, and no thanks." Um, but it- it was a long ti- it was many weeks of back and forth conversation, um, digitally one way or another. So it was, you know, via Twitter, and then via direct message, and then we both played Words with Friends back then, and we would message in Words with Friends. And then eventually, you know, we exchanged phone numbers. So then it's-

Lex Fridman 1:19:08 How does Words with Friends work? What's that?

Sarma Melngailis 1:19:11 Words with Friends?

Lex Fridman 1:19:11 I know that's a popular game. Is that like Scrabble?

Sarma Melngailis 1:19:14 It's like Scrabble and you're playing other people, and then there's like a chat function.

Lex Fridman 1:19:19 Yeah. And then you could chat with him.

Sarma Melngailis 1:19:21 Right.

Lex Fridman 1:19:21 And so you were this intellectually stimulating game, and you were what, like, flirting and that kind of stuff? Like, f- w- witty banter.

Sarma Melngailis 1:19:31 Yes.

Lex Fridman 1:19:32 AKA flirting.

Sarma Melngailis 1:19:33 Yes. And but, but, um, it, all of that lasted a really long time, and h- and he would give me like little tiny bits and pieces of information about himself that made him seem kind of mysterious. Um-

Lex Fridman 1:19:47 This is a dark, mysterious man who was a Navy SEAL, strong.

Sarma Melngailis 1:19:53 Yeah. W- and he would always imply things versus say them outright, so you're kinda always guessing and filling things in. And-

Lex Fridman 1:19:59 Clint Eastwood type of character. He's not gonna say it outright.

Sarma Melngailis 1:20:02 He's what?

Lex Fridman 1:20:03 He's a Clint Eastwood type of character. He's not gonna say it outright.

Sarma Melngailis 1:20:06 Right.

Lex Fridman 1:20:06 He's just gonna act badass.

Sarma Melngailis 1:20:08 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 1:20:08 Okay. All right.

Sarma Melngailis 1:20:09 Um-

Lex Fridman 1:20:10 And p- plus intellectual, 'cause of worded, Words with F- Words with Friends. Is that still a thing by the way?

Sarma Melngailis 1:20:15 W- that's an ex- so-

Lex Fridman 1:20:16 Words and, With Friends?

Sarma Melngailis 1:20:16 I think it still exists, yeah. But I, I don't, I, um, I feel like if I started playing it again, I would, I would get a little addicted and-

Lex Fridman 1:20:24 Yeah.

Sarma Melngailis 1:20:24 Um, but-

Lex Fridman 1:20:25 Stick to the coffee addiction.

Sarma Melngailis 1:20:26 ... one of the interesting things is that I used to think that he like used an app to look up things, but then he would do it in front of me. He could like look at ... He was really good at it, and he could look at the, the board and just like come up with, you know, a 100-point word that I'd never even heard of. So I think he had a little bit of that, something going on in his brain that was like, um, I don't know, little rain man-ish or something in the way that he was able to recall. I think his recall is incredibly ...

Lex Fridman 1:21:01 It's important if you, if you lie a lot.

Sarma Melngailis 1:21:03 If you lie a lot, yeah.

Lex Fridman 1:21:04 To have good recall.

Sarma Melngailis 1:21:06 (laughs)

Lex Fridman 1:21:06 Okay, so, uh, when, uh ... So okay, so how did it es- e- escalate slowly from w- words with friends to meeting in real life?

Sarma Melngailis 1:21:15 (laughs)

Lex Fridman 1:21:15 Like what ... You know what? I mean, what ... Okay. I know, I know it, it's not a love affair. That said, um, when did you kinda get hooked by the ... Ooh, I wonder, you know. Like fall in love.

Sarma Melngailis 1:21:31 I think it was just a slow ...

Lex Fridman 1:21:33 Yeah. When did you fall in love?

Sarma Melngailis 1:21:35 It was a slow process. And I think, um, he found me at a time when there was sort of a perfect storm of the right conditions for me to, to fall into, um, whatever I fell into with him. Um, 'cause I was heartbroken for the first time in my life.

Lex Fridman 1:21:53 Where was the heartbreak coming from?

Sarma Melngailis 1:21:55 I had split with my boyfriend of four years, um ...

Lex Fridman 1:21:59 And that broke your heart.

Sarma Melngailis 1:22:01 Yeah. I mean, it was ... I knew it was a relationship that I knew would end, even when I got into it in the first place, um, 'cause he-

Lex Fridman 1:22:09 How'd you know?

Sarma Melngailis 1:22:09 ... he's 15 years younger than me. And-

Lex Fridman 1:22:12 Surely that can't be the only charac- the re- the only reason it wouldn't work. I need to also give you a book on love.

Sarma Melngailis 1:22:21 What's it called?

Lex Fridman 1:22:22 I ... I'm, I'm gonna write it. I don't know.

Sarma Melngailis 1:22:24 Okay.

Lex Fridman 1:22:25 Just ... That's called a joke. (laughs)

Sarma Melngailis 1:22:26 'Cause there's another book that I didn't bring. (laughs) Okay.

Lex Fridman 1:22:29 There's no book on Twitter and there's no book on love.

Sarma Melngailis 1:22:31 (laughs)

Lex Fridman 1:22:32 It's ... A lot of people keep trying to write-

Sarma Melngailis 1:22:33 Well, 'cause there's actually a book on love that I really like that I think you might like, but, um ...

Lex Fridman 1:22:36 What is it? Li- like Love Languages? I still have to read that one.

Sarma Melngailis 1:22:38 No. It's called On Love.

Lex Fridman 1:22:41 (laughs) All right. I can't wait.

Sarma Melngailis 1:22:42 By, um-

Lex Fridman 1:22:43 I'm gonna read the cl- the Cliff Notes. By?

Sarma Melngailis 1:22:45 It's short. By this guy named Alain de Botton. French name.

Lex Fridman 1:22:50 (laughs) I don't trust him already. (laughs)

Sarma Melngailis 1:22:53 No, it's funny, and it's beautiful, and shocking that he wrote it when he was very young. Um, and I first heard him on a Krista Tippett podcast. Um, that's how I end up reading a lot of books, is like you hear somebody on a podcast. Um ...

Lex Fridman 1:23:08 So ...

Sarma Melngailis 1:23:09 So love-

Lex Fridman 1:23:10 So you were heartbroken. You knew it wasn't gonna work.

Sarma Melngailis 1:23:13 Yes. I knew it wasn't gonna work because-

Lex Fridman 1:23:13 Because of the age difference. What else?

Sarma Melngailis 1:23:16 N- not just because of the age difference, but also, you know, I just knew that eventually he'd wanna move on and probably he'd find somebody younger and/or was young enough that he still needed to go have a bunch of other experiences, and, um, you know, probably wanted a family or whatnot eventually. So he was 21 and I was 34 when we first met. Um, but, and, but then we ended up living together for four years. And it was the most drama-free, like there was no drama. And I had just come off ... My prior relationship was Matthew Kenny, which was very, um, dark in many ways.

Lex Fridman 1:23:58 Lots of drama.

Sarma Melngailis 1:23:59 And full of all kinds of ... Yeah. And I, I just couldn't, couldn't handle that, so ...

Lex Fridman 1:24:04 Can I ask you a, a personal question?

Sarma Melngailis 1:24:06 Yes. Between us and (laughs) -

Lex Fridman 1:24:09 Between, between us friends. Um, is there a part of you that's attracted to the drama and the chaos, now looking back?

Sarma Melngailis 1:24:21 I feel like that happens a lot a- and maybe there was at some point, but I don't think so because you know part ... what made that relationship work, um, with ... his name was Tobin, was that there was no drama, none at all. And I don't think I could've handled it. And I feel that way now too. Like I just couldn't, I can't ... like fighting or any kind of like, like people being passive-aggressive, I can't, I can't handle that. Um, so-

Lex Fridman 1:24:56 You've, you, you've had enough storms, now y- you want the calm.

Sarma Melngailis 1:25:00 Yes.

Lex Fridman 1:25:00 Yeah.

Sarma Melngailis 1:25:01 Um-

Lex Fridman 1:25:01 So you knew ... uh, you knew it wasn't