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Serhii Plokhy: History of Ukraine, Russia, Soviet Union, KGB, Nazis & War | Lex Fridman Podcast #415

Serhii Plokhy is a Ukrainian historian at Harvard University, director of the Ukrainian Research Institute, and an author of many books on history of Eastern Europe, including his latest book The Russo-Ukrainian War: The Return of History. Please support this podcast by checking out our sponsors: - Eight Sleep: https://eightsleep.com/lex to get special savings - Shopify: https://shopify.com/lex to get $1 per month trial - NetSuite: http://netsuite.com/lex to get free product tour - AG1: https://drinkag1.com/lex to get 1 month supply of fish oil TRANSCRIPT: https://lexfridman.com/serhii-plokhy-transcript EPISODE LINKS: Serhii's X: https://x.com/splokhy Serhii's Website: https://history.fas.harvard.edu/people/serhii-plokhii Harvard Ukrainian Research Institute: https://huri.harvard.edu/ Serhii's Books: https://amzn.to/3OS2EqK 2006 - The Origins of the Slavic Nations 2010 - Yalta: The Price of Peace 2012 - The Cossack Myth: History and Nationhood in the Age of Empires 2014 - The Last Empire: The Final Days of the Soviet Union 2015 - The Gates of Europe: A History of Ukraine 2016 - The Man with the Poison Gun: A Cold War Spy Story 2017 - Lost Kingdom: The Quest for Empire and the Making of the Russian Nation 2018 - Chernobyl: History of a Tragedy 2021 - Nuclear Folly: A History of the Cuban Missile Crisis 2021 - The Frontline: Essays on Ukraine's Past and Present 2022 - Atoms and Ashes: A Global History of Nuclear Disaster 2023 - The Russo-Ukrainian War: The Return of History PODCAST INFO: Podcast website: https://lexfridman.com/podcast Apple Podcasts: https://apple.co/2lwqZIr Spotify: https://spoti.fi/2nEwCF8 RSS: https://lexfridman.com/feed/podcast/ Full episodes playlist: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLrAXtmErZgOdP_8GztsuKi9nrraNbKKp4 Clips playlist: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLrAXtmErZgOeciFP3CBCIEElOJeitOr41 OUTLINE: 0:00 - Introduction 1:18 - Collapse of the Soviet Union 17:27 - Origins of Russia and Ukraine 30:30 - Ukrainian nationalism 38:13 - Stepan Bandera 1:07:13 - KGB 1:22:11 - War in Ukraine 1:58:27 - NATO and Russia 2:09:30 - Peace talks 2:23:17 - Ukrainian Army head Valerii Zaluzhnyi 2:29:54 - Power and War 2:40:45 - Holodomor 2:47:17 - Chernobyl 2:57:51 - Nuclear power 3:07:28 - Future of the world SOCIAL: - Twitter: https://twitter.com/lexfridman - LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lexfridman - Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/lexfridman - Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/lexfridman - Medium: https://medium.com/@lexfridman - Reddit: https://reddit.com/r/lexfridman - Support on Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/lexfridman

Serhii PlokhyguestLex Fridmanhost
Mar 3, 20243h 19mWatch on YouTube ↗

At a glance

WHAT IT’S REALLY ABOUT

Historian Serhii Plokhy Dissects Empire, Ukraine, Putin, and War Myths

  1. Lex Fridman speaks with historian Serhii Plokhy about the long arc of Russian and Ukrainian history, from Kievan Rus and the rise of Moscow to the Soviet Union’s collapse and today’s war. Plokhy frames the USSR’s end as the final phase of a centuries‑long imperial breakup, with Ukraine’s 1991 independence as a decisive turning point. They unpack nationalist myths, Nazi and neo‑Nazi narratives, the role of Bandera, KGB operations, and how propaganda around “denazification” functions inside Russia. The conversation ends by linking Chernobyl, nuclear risk, and the new Cold War dynamic between the U.S. and China, asking what history can teach about avoiding global catastrophe.

IDEAS WORTH REMEMBERING

5 ideas

View the Soviet collapse as the final stage of Russian imperial disintegration, not just an ideological failure.

Plokhy argues that 1991 was a continuation of an imperial breakup that began in 1917, driven by rising nationalisms (including Russian nationalism), economic crisis, and center–periphery tensions—similar to other empires, not a unique ideological event.

Ukraine’s independence decision in 1991 made the USSR unsustainable and remains central to Russian power ambitions.

Ukraine’s referendum and exit deprived Moscow of its second‑largest republic, key industry, and cultural ‘near twin’; Yeltsin abandoned the Soviet project once Ukraine left, and Plokhy stresses that any future Russian bid to control the post‑Soviet space again hinges on Ukraine.

The ‘denazification’ justification relies on propaganda, historical trauma, and selective facts rather than current realities.

Plokhy notes Ukraine’s far right is electorally marginal (no far‑right party in parliament, ~2% pre‑war), and stresses that focusing narrowly on Bandera or SS units while ignoring millions who fought in the Red Army is a classic propaganda tactic that exploits WWII memory in Russia.

Imperial and ecclesiastical narratives still shape Putin’s policy and worldview toward Ukraine.

Putin’s essay on the ‘historical unity’ of Russians and Ukrainians echoes 19th‑century imperial ideology and the Russian Orthodox Church’s notion of one ‘Russian people’ (Great, Little, and White Russians), delegitimizing Ukrainian statehood and justifying intervention.

Ukraine’s political culture is fundamentally more pluralistic and anti‑authoritarian than Russia’s, affecting how both wage and experience war.

Plokhy contrasts Russia’s state‑centric, imperial tradition with Ukraine’s history of rebellions, regional diversity, and negotiated politics; he argues this underpins Ukraine’s democratic resilience, mass mobilization, and the shock Ukrainians felt at large‑scale Russian bombardment.

WORDS WORTH SAVING

5 quotes

“The Soviet collapse is continuation of the disintegration of the Russian Empire that started back in 1917.”

Serhii Plokhy

“If Ukraine is gone, Russia is not interested in this Soviet project.”

Serhii Plokhy (paraphrasing Boris Yeltsin to George H. W. Bush)

“If that’s the real goal of the war, probably the war would have to start not against Ukraine, but probably against France.”

Serhii Plokhy (on Russia’s ‘denazification’ claim)

“Ukraine is the only country in the world outside of Israel who has a Jewish president… and there is no far right in the parliament.”

Serhii Plokhy

“We are not done yet with nuclear accidents… next accident would actually expose a new vulnerability.”

Serhii Plokhy

Causes and character of the Soviet Union’s collapse as an imperial disintegrationUkraine’s historical development: Kievan Rus, Cossack myth, nationalism, and languageRussian nationalism, Putin’s historical narratives, and the ‘one people’ thesisBandera, Ukrainian radical nationalism, Nazi collaboration, and modern neo‑Nazi claimsKGB power, political assassinations (Stashinsky, Bandera), and security‑state cultureOrigins and evolution of the Russo‑Ukrainian war (2014–2022) and NATO’s roleChernobyl, nuclear disasters, and the risks of nuclear energy amid war and authoritarianism

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