Shannon Curry: Johnny Depp & Amber Heard Trial, Marriage, Dating & Love | Lex Fridman Podcast #366

1. 0:00 – 1:38

   Introduction

   1. SCShannon Curry0:00

      So, contempt is criticism on steroids. This is what John Gottman calls sulfuric acid for love. Nothing will erode a relationship quicker than contempt. Contempt is when you are looking at your partner from a superior position. So, you are eye-rolling, you are name-calling, um, there's a mockery, mocking, even physical mockery, um, imitating them, imitating their voice. Contempt is meant to just take the legs out from your partner, make them feel pathetic, ridiculous, um... And it- it can be abusive, but, um, most people have engaged in contempt at some point in their relationship. Lower level would be sort of the eye-rolling, but that is the biggest predictor of a split.

   2. LFLex Fridman0:47

      The following is a conversation with Shannon Curry, a clinical and forensic psychologist who conducts research, therapy, and psychological evaluations pertaining to trauma, violence, and relationships. She received worldwide attention in April of last year by giving a lengthy televised testimony on her psychological evaluation of Amber Heard during the Johnny Depp/Amber Heard trial. I found her testimony to be an eloquent description of complex psychological concepts and evaluation procedures. So, I reached out for a chat. In person, she was brilliant, funny, thoughtful, and truly kind. I really, really enjoyed this conversation. This is the Lex Fridman Podcast. To support it, please check out our sponsors in the description. And now, dear friends, here's Shannon Curry.

2. 1:38 – 5:37

   Starting a relationship

   1. LFLex Fridman1:38

      Charles Bukowski said that "Love is a fog that burns away with the first daylight of reality." I love that quote. Uh, do you think romantic love fades away in this way?

   2. SCShannon Curry1:47

      Bukowski.

   3. LFLex Fridman1:48

      Uh, does it- does it have to fade?

   4. SCShannon Curry1:50

      The truth is that you have all of these chemicals pumping through your body, you're essentially high on heroine in the beginning of a romance, and you're going to have these rose-colored glasses on, everything your partner does is magical, uh, but really, it's the novelty. It's just like going on a vacation, you're fully present, you're just attuned to the magic of another human being moment-to-moment. And then on top of that, you have- you're just flooded with dopamine, so you're high, on drugs, and we can't go on like that. You will die if you are using these kinds of chemicals all the time, all day long. So eventually, our bodies are sort of made to dial it down, we've made it- I mean, we're evolutionary beings. We are doing the same thing we did 200,000 years ago to find a mate, procreate, spend enough time with each other that we have sex a whole bunch of times and make babies. Now, we've changed the rules of the game, we're living, you know, almost til we're 100 years old in some cases, we're making these marriage commitments that last half a century, and, uh, we're expecting (laughs) it to be all because of love, and we're signing these contracts based on how we feel when we're high on these drugs. So, (laughs) the reality is, we know based on the re- and- and I'm also talking about certain Western civilizations here, because as you know, there are arranged marriages, and a lot of times those marriages, if we're looking at longevity, are actually way more satisfied than people who are marrying for love, which logically makes sense. If you're making a decision based on a feeling that is basically based on endorphins and dopamine and oxytocin, I wouldn't sign a contract just because of a feeling, necessary- you know, for 50 years. Whereas an arranged marriage, if you have your elders kind of deciding for you that this partner has a bunch of traits that you're going to appreciate more and more over time, I think there's some wisdom there.

   5. LFLex Fridman3:45

      So, you don't think that feeling could be a foundation for a 50-year relationship?

   6. SCShannon Curry3:50

      Well, I don't think that specific feeling you're having based on drugs-

   7. LFLex Fridman3:55

      Yeah.

   8. SCShannon Curry3:55

      ... is going to be the same (laughs) feeling you have 20, 30, 40 years down the line. If you're gonna wake up and turn to your partner when you're 70 and think, "Oh my God, I'm so glad you're hot. You are so hot."

   9. LFLex Fridman4:08

      Yeah.

   10. SCShannon Curry4:08

       Then sure, marry for hotness.

   11. LFLex Fridman4:10

       Yeah.

   12. SCShannon Curry4:10

       But if you've been through life a little bit, and I think most people who are on a second marriage know, shit happens in life. It is hard, you're gonna have, you know, maybe a kid with special needs, or your dad gets dementia, um, or you get diagnosed with cancer. Who are you gonna wanna come home to? Who is going to hold you when you are sobbing on the floor and tell you, "We're gonna get through it together"? Who's gonna know the names of your kids' special ed teacher and the process for getting a 504 plan? Or is it gonna be you on your own? I think those things matter.

   13. LFLex Fridman4:45

       But doesn't that hotness- don't those drugs kind of solidify into a deeper appreciation of the other person, into something you could call beauty?

   14. SCShannon Curry4:56

       Yes.

   15. LFLex Fridman4:56

       Uh...

   16. SCShannon Curry4:57

       They can.

   17. LFLex Fridman4:58

       But- but isn't that the same- isn't that the same thing? When you no- when you notice the beauty of another human being, aren't you- aren't you high on drugs still?

   18. SCShannon Curry5:05

       (laughs)

   19. LFLex Fridman5:05

       You're making it sound like there's like a- a brief rock star period of going on heroin-

   20. SCShannon Curry5:11

       (laughs) .

   21. LFLex Fridman5:11

       ... and then it's over, but, like, can't you be on heroin your whole life? A little bit-

   22. SCShannon Curry5:14

       I have some good news.

   23. LFLex Fridman5:15

       ... microdosing? (laughs)

   24. SCShannon Curry5:15

       I have some good news. That was something- I think one of the reasons I got into studying relationships was because I wanted that, right? So, I'm a scientist, but I also love art, and I love writing, and I love literature. I wanted to know that true love could be real, but as a scientist, uh, I am cynical, I just need some data.

   25. LFLex Fridman5:36

       Mm-hmm.

   26. SCShannon Curry5:36

       And

3. 5:37 – 12:54

   Couples therapy

   1. SCShannon Curry5:37

      when- so, I practice a type of therapy called the Gottman Method, and I love that because it tends to be- well, it is one of the most evidenced-based therapies we have based on John and Julie Gottman, two psychologists who have been researching relationships for now about 50 years, and this therapy happens to be for couples. They found that you absolutely......can make longevity work in a relationship. You can build. You are not just settling for companionship, but you can have passion and intimacy, and growing love and appreciation. But there is a blueprint, a set of skills, that we were never given. We're not taught it in school. We changed the rules of the game and we haven't learned the rules yet.

   2. LFLex Fridman6:21

      And, uh, the Gottman Method for couples therapy kind of gives you a few guidelines, the rules for-

   3. SCShannon Curry6:26

      Right.

   4. LFLex Fridman6:26

      ...longevity in a relationship.

   5. SCShannon Curry6:28

      Yeah, they did a beautiful job at taking these findings they had through, you know, decades of research, quantifying it, and then s- codifying it into a therapy method. It's really skills-based. I tell couples when they're starting out with me that they're essentially gonna be starting a class.

   6. LFLex Fridman6:46

      So, what's the 5:1 golden rule? What I read is there's a kind of balance you can achieve of, uh, how many interactions you have in a relationship that are positive versus negative-

   7. SCShannon Curry6:58

      Mm-hmm.

   8. LFLex Fridman6:58

      A- and I think that's what the 5:1 means, but basically there should be kind of an empirical... Like, if you just look back-

   9. SCShannon Curry7:06

      Yeah.

   10. LFLex Fridman7:06

       ...over, over a month, how many of the interactions were positive, how many were negative?

   11. SCShannon Curry7:09

       Or the day.

   12. LFLex Fridman7:10

       Or the day.

   13. SCShannon Curry7:11

       Look at the day, right? So, the idea of this ratio, um... Well, it's not an idea. It was a finding. It is a research finding that the Gottmans got after looking at thousands of couples, um, and codifying these interactions that they were observing. Couples that tend to be satisfied in their relationships, um, that are happier, they have better health, et cetera, they are having approximately five positive interactions to each negative. And I wanna be clear about what I'm defining as positive and negative here. So, this doesn't necessarily mean that you're... These don't need to be big, sweeping, romantic gestures, buying flowers, having sex. These are things like paying attention to what we call your partner's BIDs. Um, we make these BIDs for affection, for connection all the time in our relationships, not just with our partners, but with our friends, our coworkers. And we may not even know what our style of BID is, but if you see them on a sheet, you can pretty quickly identify them. BIDs could be wanting to show your partner, tell your partner something, and have them be proud of you. It could be wanting to go buy groceries with your partner, doing things together. "Hey, you wanna come with me?" It could be telling a joke and hoping that, uh, your wife looks up from her email on the computer and acknowledges it. If she laughs, then you've got a positive, but if I don't even look up, that's a negative, right? So, it's not necessarily that I'm calling my husband an asshole. It's just, am I connecting with him? Am I meeting those BIDs for connection? And vice versa.

   14. LFLex Fridman8:48

       But do those also give you a guide of how you should behave?

   15. SCShannon Curry8:52

       Well, I think what's really important is actually asking your partner, or paying attention to what your partner's BIDs are, because what matters to Ty, my husband, may not matter to you. For instance, I mean, Ty's bar is so low with me, I... (laughs)

   16. LFLex Fridman9:07

       (laughs)

   17. SCShannon Curry9:07

       Thank God for him.

   18. LFLex Fridman9:07

       In terms of what defines a positive interaction?

   19. SCShannon Curry9:09

       Right. Like, he just wants me to ask him if he wants a water when I get up to get myself one.

   20. LFLex Fridman9:16

       All right.

   21. SCShannon Curry9:17

       Just be a basic, decent, considerate person is all he asks (laughs) of me. Whereas mine might be sort of like, stay up later with me, watch a show, um, go to bed at the same time as me, or, um, know about the people in my life. That sort of a thing.

   22. LFLex Fridman9:32

       I should highlight this, and I hope- hopefully it's okay, that you were running a little bit late.

   23. SCShannon Curry9:36

       (laughs)

   24. LFLex Fridman9:36

       And you sent me this text, which is, which people do really rarely, and there's a subtle act of kindness within that text. So, the- the- you- the- the text you sent was that, um, I just decreased the amount of stress in your life, or something like this-

   25. SCShannon Curry9:51

       You did.

   26. LFLex Fridman9:51

       ...by saying it's co- it's cool. But that means that you were s- you were- you're signaling that you were stressed because you care enough to be there on time.

   27. SCShannon Curry10:01

       Mm-hmm.

   28. LFLex Fridman10:01

       And that was like, that made me feel really special. I was like, "Oh." You know, people don't often-

   29. SCShannon Curry10:06

       You're a brilliant guy.

   30. LFLex Fridman10:06

       People o- don't often- don't always do that, because that puts you also, that makes you vulnerable.
4. 12:54 – 20:11

   Why relationships fail

   1. LFLex Fridman12:54

      What are some common ways relationships fail that you've observed in all the therapy you've done?

   2. SCShannon Curry12:59

      Oh. Well, the Gottmans identified what they call the four horsemen of the apocalypse. So... (laughs)

   3. LFLex Fridman13:05

      (laughs) Okay, what are the four horsemen of the apocalypse?

   4. SCShannon Curry13:06

      (laughs) I mean, I could just keep it simple and go off their research. So there, those are four different behaviors that they identify in couples, or that you can identify in couples, that are really highly predictive of a divorce, some more than others. But I'll start with the lower ones. So one thing that we... Uh, by the way, actually, we all do these things.

   5. LFLex Fridman13:28

      Mm-hmm.

   6. SCShannon Curry13:28

      These would be in that five-to-one ratio. You'd wanna stay away from some of these. These are the ones. So as they pile up, now that ratio's gonna get imbalanced, and then you are headed for a split.

   7. LFLex Fridman13:39

      Yeah.

   8. SCShannon Curry13:40

      Okay? So the first is criticism. So criticism is when we have a complaint. Complaints are normal, but instead of owning our own problems, our own feelings, we assume that our perspective is com- the only valid, accurate perspective, and so we, uh, take it upon ourselves to tell our partner what is wrong with them.

   9. LFLex Fridman14:01

      Mm-hmm.

   10. SCShannon Curry14:01

       Okay? So there, there's essentially no real belief that they might have a valid perspective too. So, uh, this could look like, "You never help me out in that, with the house," or even, um, "You're so lazy. Can't, like, can't I just get you for five seconds to help with the kids?" Or something like that. Um, and then what happens is horseman number two, defensiveness. So, uh, not everybody is defensive just because they were criticized. Some people just are more prone to defensiveness than others. None of us really like admitting our faults, so it's pretty natural. But defensiveness is essentially making excuses, or worse, turning it around on your partner, um, not accepting any responsibility, and definitely not validating what they're feeling. Now, if you get criticized enough, or if you get really flooded ... The flooding is what happens when our heart rate goes up kind of around 100 beats per minute. Our frontal lobe shuts down. That's our thoughtful brain, our logical brain.

   11. LFLex Fridman15:03

       Mm-hmm.

   12. SCShannon Curry15:03

       And our reptilian kind of hindbrain takes over our thinking, and we just go into fight-or-flight, in a way. We, we just want to annihilate our partner instea- instead of say anything that would be helpful to the relationship. So if you're getting flooded, you could do a couple things. You could get super critical, you could get contemptuous, which I'll talk about in a second, it's the last horseman, or you do the third horseman, which is stonewalling. And in their research, the Gottmans found that men are actually more likely to stonewall. I also am someone who stonewalls. (laughs) But it's where you just sort of disconnect from the conversation.

   13. LFLex Fridman15:41

       Mm-hmm.

   14. SCShannon Curry15:41

       You shut down, you turn away. You can physically even turn away-

   15. LFLex Fridman15:46

       Mm-hmm.

   16. SCShannon Curry15:46

       ... kind of arms crossed, but you're just, you're shut off. And stonewalling happens usually because you get flooded. You feel like you can't win, you don't know what to do to make the situation better. It feels pretty hopeless, and talking feels unproductive. So you can see how in a typical heterosexual relationship, the gender dynamic, we know that women tend to use criticism more often, because they're the ones that typically raise issues verbally, and then if men are feeling more criticized, that they tend to stonewall. And it becomes this vicious cycle of then more criticism, but the criticism is really just a plea to be loved and get your partner to show you they care.

   17. LFLex Fridman16:26

       Mm-hmm.

   18. SCShannon Curry16:27

       And then the man tends to feel like he can't do anything right. "This isn't even productive. If I say anything, I'm just gonna make it worse." And they don't have any real ... You haven't given them a specific need, a solution, something they can do to shine for you, so they turn away.

   19. LFLex Fridman16:43

       And where does the, uh, contempt come in?

   20. SCShannon Curry16:45

       All right. So contempt is criticism on steroids. This is what John Gottman calls sulfuric acid for love. Nothing will erode a relationship quicker than contempt. Contempt is when you are looking at your partner from a superior position. So you are eye-rolling, you are name-calling. Um, there's a mockery, mocking you, even physical mockery, um, imitating them, imitating their voice. Contempt is meant to just take the legs out from your partner, make them feel pathetic, ridiculous. Um, and it b- it can be abusive. But, um, most people have engaged in contempt at some point in their relationship. Lower level would be sort of the eye-rolling, but that is the biggest predictor of a split.

   21. LFLex Fridman17:30

       If you allow yourself to think, yeah, that mockery or contempt just a little bit, it's like this weird slippery slope.

   22. SCShannon Curry17:38

       Sure is.

   23. LFLex Fridman17:39

       And the opposite is true, where I just look at a person and think, "Wow, isn't that the most, like, wonderful creature I've ever seen in my life."

   24. SCShannon Curry17:49

       (laughs) Hmm. Hmm.

   25. LFLex Fridman17:49

       I just think that. And you notice-

   26. SCShannon Curry17:50

       That's lovely.

   27. LFLex Fridman17:50

       ... the little details about who they are.

   28. SCShannon Curry17:52

       Mm-hmm.

   29. LFLex Fridman17:52

       And so I just observe them the way you observe like a weird like peacock at a zoo or something like that.

   30. SCShannon Curry17:57

       Intention is powerful, isn't it?
5. 20:11 – 25:38

   Drama in relationships

   1. SCShannon Curry20:11

   2. LFLex Fridman20:11

      Uh, tricky question.

   3. SCShannon Curry20:12

      Sure.

   4. LFLex Fridman20:12

      But, uh, in the, in the couples you've worked with, is there, like, the feminine and the masculine? Is there different dynamics that come into play, uh, like dominant/submissive? Is there, is it like a dance where it just changes from minute to minute? Is there di- is there dynamics that you observe that both limit and enable, uh, successful relationships?

   5. SCShannon Curry20:35

      Yes, so there are... If we're talking about masculine/feminine, then how also are... we could get into... are we talking about actual gender, identified gender, or are we just talking about these traits? Because like I said, I stonewall, which is typically in couples, something that is more associated with straight men, um, but that's my style of coping when I get overwhelmed. Uh, that is not tied to any sort of success or non-success of a relationship. But what we do know is that gay couples, so lesbians and gay men, tend to be gentler with one another when they are having conflict discussions. I... So, that's actually been identified in the research, and it's something I've witnessed, and it's just fascinating. So, with my straight couples, I'll be going through one of these... If we're processing a conflict that occurred, I'll be going through the sheet, and it's very, very structured, because you don't want couples doing more damage when they're there with you. You want them practicing skills that protect them from criticism, that protect them from contempt. And when I'm working with a straight couple, I am like a referee, or sometimes I'll relate it to being like a ski coach and keeping people on a bunny hill, and you tell them... you let them make, like, two turns, and then you stop them-

   6. LFLex Fridman21:53

      Mm-hmm.

   7. SCShannon Curry21:53

      ... and you meet up again, because you don't want them to veer off. With straight couples, you are doing very short turns before you need to kinda intervene and re-scaffold. I had a lesbian couple recently, and they were so lovely with each other. They skipped, like, seven steps to the advanced final portion where they were already coming up with solutions and suggesting things that they might be able to do differently next time to make it better for their partner. They were asking each other questions about how their partner felt with no agenda, no attempt to sort of be like, "Well, do you think you're feeling that way because..." which straight couples do all the time. Um, you just see this humility and openness. It's lovely.

   8. LFLex Fridman22:33

      Yeah, it's lovely. But I wonder if, uh, maybe I'm watching too many Hollywood films, if some of the drama, some of the tension is required for a passionate, lifelong romance.

   9. SCShannon Curry22:45

      No, it's not, and that's great news. So, we actually know- (laughs)

   10. LFLex Fridman22:50

       Yes.

   11. SCShannon Curry22:50

       ... that the closer you feel to your partner, so if... I mean, you're, you've talked a lot about beauty.

   12. LFLex Fridman22:57

       Mm-hmm.

   13. SCShannon Curry22:57

       And you can ignite that beauty, that interest, right? So, when you're falling in love, it's usually that a person is sort of a mystery to you, and you're uncovering these layers that you find really appealing.

   14. LFLex Fridman23:10

       Mm-hmm.

   15. SCShannon Curry23:12

       There are continual layers that you can uncover with your partner over time. I don't think we realize that. I think we get complacent, and we think we've had every conversation imaginable. "What- what else are they gonna do to surprise me?" But we don't know the questions to be asking. One of my favorite questions... Um, I like turning these conversations kind of into a quiz, because I get bored easily. (laughs)

   16. LFLex Fridman23:35

       Okay.

   17. SCShannon Curry23:35

       So, you... Rather than just asking an open-ended question, um, there's a way you can do this with your partner where it's sort of like the dating game. Like, "What is my, as of yet, fondest but unrealized life dream?" And see if your partner knows. You might not even know.

   18. LFLex Fridman23:52

       Mm-hmm.

   19. SCShannon Curry23:52

       They might know you better than you know yourself. That in and of itself is a beautiful reminder of the relationship and how special it is. But then also, um, when they...... say it, or when you realize or have to think critically, like, "What is my husband's as of yet unrealized but fondest life dream?" And then you can talk about it, you just... I don't know. You just kind of transcend into this new area, and you feel tight again. You feel like... You feel close.

   20. LFLex Fridman24:23

       Where you really talk to each other. Like, I, I've, uh-

   21. SCShannon Curry24:26

       Yeah.

   22. LFLex Fridman24:27

       ... I recorded and without intending to publish, uh, podcasts like this-

   23. SCShannon Curry24:33

       Mm-hmm.

   24. LFLex Fridman24:33

       ... with microphones, with, with, with friends, with people close to me, because it's literally that. You get to ask questions like as if it's an interview.

   25. SCShannon Curry24:41

       Right.

   26. LFLex Fridman24:42

       And we don't do that-

   27. SCShannon Curry24:43

       That's exactly it. The way you're-

   28. LFLex Fridman24:44

       ... with each other.

   29. SCShannon Curry24:45

       ... talking with me-

   30. LFLex Fridman24:45

       Yeah.
6. 25:38 – 32:03

   Success in relationships

   1. SCShannon Curry25:38

   2. LFLex Fridman25:38

      What, uh... I know we've said some of those things, but what's on the opposite side, what's the key to a successful relationship? What's like, what are the things you see time and time again that, to you, designate that they're on a good path?

   3. SCShannon Curry25:51

      Yeah. There's a real attunement, honestly. Just it's, um, sort of an us-against-the-world feeling. Nobody... Neither partner's gonna talk shit on them, the other. Uh, there's a loyalty.

   4. LFLex Fridman26:03

      Mm.

   5. SCShannon Curry26:03

      Um, they handle each other and the relationship with care. You can tell that they've worked some things... Uh, I, to me, it usually indicates that these are some people who have figured, they've had to work some things out. They know that this is delicate. They know, um, you know, that y- you're on thin ice. You take a wrong step, and you can be back in a tough place in your relationship. Or you treat it with care, and it can be amazing. So, they're careful with one another. They give each other compliments. They are considerate. So, you'll see, um, you know, he'll bring the car around for her because it's raining, or, um, she'll bring him home some takeout. You know, she'll order for him, too, at the restaurant. There's just kind... They keep each other in each other's minds.

   6. LFLex Fridman26:49

      But that us-against-the-world thing.

   7. SCShannon Curry26:51

      Mm-hmm.

   8. LFLex Fridman26:53

      That definitely is there. Like if you-

   9. SCShannon Curry26:54

      100%. You've seen that, right?

   10. LFLex Fridman26:56

       Yeah.

   11. SCShannon Curry26:56

       Yeah.

   12. LFLex Fridman26:56

       You've seen it. And you've seen it, like, um... I like it when couples have been together for a long time, and when one is talking, the other one looks at them. If you don't do that, that's not a bad sign, but it's a good sign when you do that-

   13. SCShannon Curry27:09

       Yes.

   14. LFLex Fridman27:09

       ... because, uh, and I think it's actually a really good, um, exercise to do-

   15. SCShannon Curry27:14

       Mm-hmm.

   16. LFLex Fridman27:14

       ... 'cause I, because I enjoy when I see in others. So, it's, it's, it's, um, it's a way to sh- show that you don't take them for granted-

   17. SCShannon Curry27:24

       Mm-hmm.

   18. LFLex Fridman27:25

       ... and that you still find them like this mysterious, wonderful-

   19. SCShannon Curry27:28

       (laughs)

   20. LFLex Fridman27:28

       ... creature to observe. Like, I think too often, we have that with our parents-

   21. SCShannon Curry27:33

       Hmm.

   22. LFLex Fridman27:33

       ... we have that with, um, people close to us. You think, "Yeah, I've heard what they're about to say. I know."

   23. SCShannon Curry27:39

       Mm-hmm.

   24. LFLex Fridman27:39

       "I know you can complete their sentences."

   25. SCShannon Curry27:40

       Yeah, take them for granted.

   26. LFLex Fridman27:41

       And then, if you, if you just look at them and say, "Wow, this is the most brilliant person-"

   27. SCShannon Curry27:45

       Mm-hmm.

   28. LFLex Fridman27:45

       "... I've ever seen in my life. Most, I can't..." You know, y- you just appreciate every word that comes out of them and look at them in that way, you actually begin to believe it.

   29. SCShannon Curry27:55

       Yeah.

   30. LFLex Fridman27:56

       And you actually begin to-
7. 32:03 – 40:39

   Dating

   1. SCShannon Curry32:03

   2. LFLex Fridman32:03

      What, what do you, uh... The early days of that, what, what do you think about the whole dating, modern dating process? How do you find a partner that you can, um, stay with for the rest of your life?

   3. SCShannon Curry32:15

      So, we are absolutely doing it wrong.

   4. LFLex Fridman32:18

      (laughs)

   5. SCShannon Curry32:18

      And, um, but there is a way you can do it, and I am such a fan of this psychologist, Ty Tashiro. I adore him. He is brilliant. He's lovely. He's also very humble. Just a wonderful, salt-of-the-earth guy. I'm gonna tell you a very true story here.

   6. LFLex Fridman32:33

      Uh-huh.

   7. SCShannon Curry32:33

      Okay?

   8. LFLex Fridman32:34

      Let's go.

   9. SCShannon Curry32:34

      I was in a bad relationship, and I was, um, at a psychology conference with my partner at the time. Um, we were both at this conference, and we were sitting in a lecture hall, uh, there for Ty Tashiro to do his talk that day on his phenomenal research on relationship satisfaction and dating. Um, and I was sitting next to him, and we'd been, you know... It was just always unpleasant on trips. There were always fights. We're sitting there, and Ty Tashiro starts talking about his research and how he found that most people are, you know, signing this agreement, getting married, and doing it based on the love endorphins, and really only about 35% of anybody who's married is actually happy. Um, and he said, "So then," you know, and-

   10. LFLex Fridman33:24

       That's a pretty low number.

   11. SCShannon Curry33:25

       Exactly. But here's what I love about Ty Tashiro, is he didn't stop there. He wanted to know what those people who were happy, um, had in common, and then same thing with the people who were unhappy. He found a couple fascinating patterns. So, the couples who were happy tended to rate their partners higher in three different traits, and I love talking about this, because if you are somebody who can follow instructions, you can find this. (laughs) I mean, very easily. Um, those three traits tend to be conscientiousness. Okay? And I love the word conscientiousness, because it's not just kindness. Kindness is a good way to think of it, but you can be kind and kind of be a pushover, and that's not attractive. Conscientiousness is smart, attentive. It's somebody who reads into a text message and thinks, "Wow, she was making herself very vulnerable there." (laughs) That's conscientiousness.

   12. LFLex Fridman34:25

       I like how you're just doing a compliment.

   13. SCShannon Curry34:26

       No, but it's-

   14. LFLex Fridman34:27

       Appreciate it. (laughs)

   15. SCShannon Curry34:27

       ... it's true. It's a certain intelligence, awareness, and attunement.

   16. LFLex Fridman34:31

       Yep. Yeah.

   17. SCShannon Curry34:32

       And then on top of that, conscientiousness is motivated. So, you can't be on your ass all day and be conscientious, 'cause then you can't meet the needs that you anticipate about the person. So, conscientious is that guy who drives the car around in the rainstorm so his wife's hair doesn't get met. It's my husband who checks my alarm for me every morning 'cause he knows I'm terrible at time management, and he makes sure that I set it a reasonable amount of time before my first meeting-

   18. LFLex Fridman34:57

       Yeah.

   19. SCShannon Curry34:57

       ... and not the 20 minutes I think I need.

   20. LFLex Fridman35:00

       Yeah.

   21. SCShannon Curry35:00

       (laughs) Um, and then he'll come wake me up with a cup of coffee. That is ultimate conscientiousness. And it is true. I mean, l- I will tell you, as somebody who's with a conscientious partner, your love increases over time as you continue to feel grateful and admiring of that person. Um, the second one, you want somebody who is low in a big five personality trait called neuroticism. Um, you want somebody emotionally stable, in a way. Uh, now, this doesn't mean you can't have somebody who doesn't get the blues or struggle with mental health issues. Trust me. Ty is with somebody who (laughs) , you know, I get... I'm all over the place. But you want somebody who kind of owns their shit and isn't going to just be emotionally unstable all over... You know. You want somebody who is generally happy and has some life satisfaction. Um, having a partner who has serious m- not mental health issues, but unmitigated emotional distress and instability is really hard on the partner, and it's really hard on other family members, including children, if you have children. So, it's just a predictor of happiness.

   22. LFLex Fridman36:12

       So, a cert- there's a certain threshold of chaos that, if you exceed it-

   23. SCShannon Curry36:16

       Well said.

   24. LFLex Fridman36:16

       ... it's going to be destructive to a-

   25. SCShannon Curry36:18

       That is-

   26. LFLex Fridman36:18

       ... long-term relationship.

   27. SCShannon Curry36:19

       ... a perfect description.

   28. LFLex Fridman36:21

       But then again-

   29. SCShannon Curry36:21

       It's about chaos.Not the mystery, chaos you love as your-

   30. LFLex Fridman36:25

       (laughs)
8. 40:39 – 42:32

   Sex

   1. LFLex Fridman40:39

      Speaking of adventurousness, what about sex?

   2. SCShannon Curry40:42

      Oh, sex is important.

   3. LFLex Fridman40:42

      What role does sex play in a successful relationship?

   4. SCShannon Curry40:45

      Well, it, okay, so I'm saying it's important, but I want to qualify that. Everybody has different levels of sex that are satisfying to them.

   5. LFLex Fridman40:54

      Mm-hmm.

   6. SCShannon Curry40:54

      Sex can definitely bond you to your partner. Orgasms are amazing. They de-stress us. They're healthy. They... I mean, you can have an orgasm and have a lower level of stress for 48 hours. I think that's pretty incredible. Um, if you have, uh, I mean, just that kind of physical contact with your partner, even a 20-second hug with your partner has similar benefits to an orgasm. You're gonna have a lower stress level. You're gonna feel immediately close to your partner. You're gonna get a rus- a rush of oxytocin, which is gonna make you feel happier, um, more grounded throughout the day. So, that's a 20-second hug. You extrapolate that to sex, and things are gonna be great.

   7. LFLex Fridman41:34

      Mm-hmm. So, it's just physiological.

   8. SCShannon Curry41:36

      Mm-hmm.

   9. LFLex Fridman41:37

      But I wonder, there's probably metrics about how often you have sex, how that correlates to successful relationships and so on.

   10. SCShannon Curry41:43

       (laughs) Well, there are, but it really has more to do... It's sort of like, remember I was talking about processing conflict, and what matters is do people feel like it's been resolved? Do they feel like there's been a repair?

   11. LFLex Fridman41:54

       Yeah.

   12. SCShannon Curry41:54

       Not necessarily how they go about doing it. Same with sex. Do, does each partner feel sexually satisfied? Um, so that could be once a month for one couple. It could be five times a week for another couple. It could be never for other couples, truly. Um, I mean, so sex has a ton of benefits, but its absence isn't necessarily detrimental, I guess would be the qualifier, depending on who you are.

   13. LFLex Fridman42:19

       Yeah. I know couples that use sex to, f- as part of the conflict resolution process. (laughs)

   14. SCShannon Curry42:25

       It's hugely effective for that-

   15. LFLex Fridman42:27

       (laughs)

   16. SCShannon Curry42:27

       ... if it works for both parties.

   17. LFLex Fridman42:28

       Yeah, that's-

   18. SCShannon Curry42:29

       All parties.

   19. LFLex Fridman42:30

       Yeah, that's true.

   20. SCShannon Curry42:30

       Not just both. All.

   21. LFLex Fridman42:31

       That's true.

9. 42:32 – 51:33

   Cheating

   1. LFLex Fridman42:32

      Um, what do you think about infidelity? Um, you know-What's the cause of infidelity? Why do men and women cheat?

   2. SCShannon Curry42:41

      It's different for everybody, but I mean, even earlier, I was saying with adventurousness, like, if monogamy is something you're doing. Uh, I- I- I've seen in my own practice, I've seen the entire range of couples who are open about having sexual relationships with other people, um, and fine with it, couples who want to be fine with it, but find out they're not, um, uh, couples who aren't just couples, couples with multiple people, you know, multiple romantic relationships. Um, I've had couples where affairs all are tolerated and not talked about. Um, they're not enjoyed, but they are not the type of betrayal that will destroy the relationship. A sort of a understanding and keep it out of my face.

   3. LFLex Fridman43:27

      So-

   4. SCShannon Curry43:27

      And then also, we won't talk about it. (clears throat)

   5. LFLex Fridman43:29

      So, an affair that happened without getting permission first-

   6. SCShannon Curry43:32

      Mm-hmm.

   7. LFLex Fridman43:33

      ... and as long as you don't talk about it-

   8. SCShannon Curry43:35

      Right.

   9. LFLex Fridman43:35

      ... it's not going to do a damage to the relationship.

   10. SCShannon Curry43:37

       Right. But-

   11. LFLex Fridman43:38

       Or significant.

   12. SCShannon Curry43:38

       ... we can't even talk about it like that, right? So-

   13. LFLex Fridman43:40

       Okay.

   14. SCShannon Curry43:40

       ... nobody is going to admit that the affair is happening.

   15. LFLex Fridman43:44

       Right.

   16. SCShannon Curry43:44

       Um, there can't be any evidence of it. It's sort of a "just look the other way" type of a situation. But, uh, the partner who is not having the affair, right, they typically know. Um, they certainly know that their partner is capable of that. Um, they just kind of know, but they don't want it in their face. It would become a problem if it was in their face. Um, as long as certain needs are met and everything else is okay at home, it's just one of those things where, don't ask, don't tell.

   17. LFLex Fridman44:15

       Well, that- that's an interesting point, because I've, I had a bunch of arguments with people. Uh, I tend to hang out with, especially in the tech sector, uh, people who really value, like, honesty-

   18. SCShannon Curry44:27

       Mm-hmm.

   19. LFLex Fridman44:27

       ... and radical honesty, and I keep arguing with people about this, because to me, it's not that simple. Like, that- that's an example right there of that honesty can be really destructive. (laughs)

   20. SCShannon Curry44:38

       Mm-hmm.

   21. LFLex Fridman44:38

       (laughs) Like, h- honesty is also a really complicated thing to get to the bottom of, because what is really honest?

   22. SCShannon Curry44:44

       Yes.

   23. LFLex Fridman44:45

       And- and-

   24. SCShannon Curry44:45

       Yeah.

   25. LFLex Fridman44:45

       ... you know, like, how do I look in this dress? (laughs) Like, there's a million ways-

   26. SCShannon Curry44:50

       It's perspective. It's perspective.

   27. LFLex Fridman44:51

       ... to answer that.

   28. SCShannon Curry44:51

       Yeah.

   29. LFLex Fridman44:51

       Perspec- a lot of it-

   30. SCShannon Curry44:52

       It can be a cesspool in my mind, if I'm in a bad place or my partner and I haven't b- like, if Talia and I haven't been connected lately, my honesty of what I actually think about him- (laughs)
10. 51:33 – 53:24

    Polyamory

    1. SCShannon Curry51:33

    2. LFLex Fridman51:33

       Uh, what do you think about open relationships in general? My worldview is such that I see the beauty and value in monogamous relationships-

    3. SCShannon Curry51:42

       Mm-hmm.

    4. LFLex Fridman51:42

       ... just for me.

    5. SCShannon Curry51:43

       Mm-hmm.

    6. LFLex Fridman51:43

       But I don't... I'm also open to the possibility of what works for other people. Have you done any kind of work with people in open relationships?

    7. SCShannon Curry51:51

       As clients or research?

    8. LFLex Fridman51:53

       As cli- as clients.

    9. SCShannon Curry51:53

       Oh, yeah. Yeah.

    10. LFLex Fridman51:55

        Is there some interesting differences in between, uh, open relationships and monogamous relationships?

    11. SCShannon Curry52:00

        You know, I think that may have been actually what was behind my question about, um, the satisfaction with them being on extremes. My hypothesis essentially was, is it because they... If you are really all in, you've worked out some of the kinks. I think I've seen, um, couples who are trying it out, right, for the first time, it tends to get a little haywire. Um, there's some excitement in the beginning, everybody's really excited about it. Um, I think the philosophy makes sense to a lot of people. Uh, the science of it makes sense to a lot of people, and... But we have been raised in a society that is pretty monogamous, so there isn't a lot of scaffolding around it, um, and, and there's a lot of con- inner conflict, I think, for people to go away from the values that they've been taught since they were kids. Um, and so jealousy arises a lot, and, uh, uh, and also I... It's very difficult to be, I think, as truthful and direct as you need to be, which you're describing in these polyamorous situations where everybody... It's laid out on the table. Um, so I think that's something that may be practiced. In my own work with clients, I've just noticed that, um, the c- the partners who are happier in these situations who I've worked with, um, they are more experienced at it.

    12. LFLex Fridman53:22

        Yeah.

    13. SCShannon Curry53:23

        They seem to have it down.

11. 53:24 – 1:22:02

    Johnny Depp and Amber Heard trial

    1. SCShannon Curry53:24

    2. LFLex Fridman53:25

       You testified in the Johnny Depp/Amber Heard trial, uh, based on your role as a clinical and forensic psychologist. It was watched by, I don't know how many people, maybe tens, maybe hundreds of millions of people. What was that experience like?

    3. SCShannon Curry53:38

       Thank God I didn't know that at the time.

    4. LFLex Fridman53:41

       (laughs)

    5. SCShannon Curry53:41

       Um...

    6. LFLex Fridman53:41

       Were you scared?

    7. SCShannon Curry53:43

       Oh, yeah.

    8. LFLex Fridman53:44

       Given the size of the platform-

    9. SCShannon Curry53:45

       Well-

    10. LFLex Fridman53:45

        ... and how many people were watching?

    11. SCShannon Curry53:46

        I'm not... Scared typically isn't the word when I testify. I'm always, um, excited and a little trepidatious before I testify, um, because the stakes are so high for everybody's life in that room. Um, this was different. I te- I... Anxiety isn't usually my brand, um-

    12. LFLex Fridman54:06

        (laughs)

    13. SCShannon Curry54:07

        ... and I just skipped anxiety that morning and went straight to terror.

    14. LFLex Fridman54:11

        Yeah. (laughs)

    15. SCShannon Curry54:11

        And I was mad. I was mad at the legal t-... I was funny... Like, I was having all these strong emotions. I couldn't find my bobby pins. I almost started crying because I couldn't find them. Uh, I was pretty unhinged that morning, and in a way that was really unfamiliar to me. Um, and it was right when I cried 'cause I couldn't find my bobby pins that I realized I needed to get a grip, and that I was a professional, and that my hair didn't matter, even though it ended up mattering. People noticed that it was crazy. Um, but I got a grip, and I went in, and I just did my job.

    16. LFLex Fridman54:44

        So, the terror, in the end, helped you focus and do your job well?

    17. SCShannon Curry54:48

        I think it does, and it's a little scary though, because I know what fear does cognitively, (laughs) and there is a sweet spot where you want some stress, and then you can be really acutely focused and attuned. But then, if you go over this threshold, you get sort of that frontal lobe shutdown where you're not thinking clearly, and everybody knows that experience from taking a really stressful test at some point, like in high school, and then they're going over the answers with the teacher in class later, and they're like, "How did I miss that question? I know that."... they, you're just in a different state. That's when you have too much stress. I think this day, I actually was bordering (laughs) on too much stress, if not clearly in that threshold. But, um, once you're sitting there for a little bit and you're asked the questions, you can kind of go into a routine of just wanting to talk about your work.

    18. LFLex Fridman55:39

        So, what is the work, the job of a forensic psychologist in that context?

    19. SCShannon Curry55:46

        In the Depp-Heard trial, I was, um, serving as an expert witness based on a psychological evaluation of one of the parties. Um, so forensic psychologists can serve, uh, the court or in legal matters in a number of ways. They can act as a confidential consultant for an attorney on a case, um, or they can e- even assist with jury selection. They might testify without doing an evaluation if they're just coming in to testify about sort of a subject matter. Um, and then they wouldn't be answering specific questions to either of the parties, but just talking more hypothetically about an, a field area. Um, in this case, because I was, um, ordered to conduct an evaluation, I evaluated one of the parties, and then you provide a report to the court, um, with your findings, and then you testify, um, as to what your findings were.

    20. LFLex Fridman56:41

        But from my perspective, just watching you, you seem to have held it together really well. So w- what do you attribute that to? So you said, like, it calmed down after you were able to a- ask the questions.

    21. SCShannon Curry56:52

        Mm-hmm.

    22. LFLex Fridman56:52

        So to me, if I were just to put myself in your s- place, it seems like the internet and the world would be very nitpicky about individual words.

    23. SCShannon Curry57:03

        Mm-hmm.

    24. LFLex Fridman57:03

        You're speaking from a place of, um, scientific rigor.

    25. SCShannon Curry57:09

        Mm-hmm.

    26. LFLex Fridman57:10

        And so you have to be very precise with your wording.

    27. SCShannon Curry57:12

        Very precise.

    28. LFLex Fridman57:12

        I would feel, like, so much pressure about th- each single word I choose.

    29. SCShannon Curry57:17

        Mm-hmm.

    30. LFLex Fridman57:17

        Did you feel that pressure that you had to be extremely precise with the words?
12. 1:22:02 – 1:32:12

    Forensic psychology

    1. SCShannon Curry1:22:02

    2. LFLex Fridman1:22:02

       Okay, so given how huge this trial was, given how eloquent you were, you were... I know you don't think of it that way-

    3. SCShannon Curry1:22:09

       (laughing)

    4. LFLex Fridman1:22:09

       ... but from a public perspective, you were, like, the star because of how well you did.

    5. SCShannon Curry1:22:16

       That's insane.

    6. LFLex Fridman1:22:16

       It's, uh, I mean, you know, uh...

    7. SCShannon Curry1:22:18

       I'm pretty sure Camille's the star.

    8. LFLex Fridman1:22:20

       Camille is also incredible. I've gotten a chance to interact with her. She's somebody that, uh, really inspires me by how good she is at her job, how much she loves her job, and how much the fame, the money, whatever, has not affected the basic core integrity of who she is-

    9. SCShannon Curry1:22:38

       Right.

    10. LFLex Fridman1:22:39

        ... uh, as a human being, so she's also, uh, she's also incredible. Okay, uh, how... W- what's the, what's the takeaway for you personally from the trial? Uh, how has it made you a better person? How has it changed in, changed or solidified who you are as a psychologist, as a forensic psychologist, clinical psychologist and so on?

    11. SCShannon Curry1:23:01

        Wow. Uh, I mean, a lot happened in my life around that trial, leading up to the trial, after the trial, um... So, let's tackle forensic psychologist first.

    12. LFLex Fridman1:23:13

        Sure.

    13. SCShannon Curry1:23:13

        Okay. So, in terms of forensic psychology, um, I am grateful to that trial for really strengthening my abilities. Um, the stakes were so high that I took... You know, I was retained about two years prior to the trial, so I really delved deep into the academic side of forensic psychology and making sure that, um, I was adhering as closely as possible to standard practices, best practice recommendations for this specific type of an examination. It was intellectually awesome and challenging. I felt like my brain was on fire for a full year leading up to the trial, and that can be really, really fun. It was just challenging, but I am really proud of the work I did. I think the stakes were really high. It's serious work. It's, um, important that it's done well and accurately, and I felt really good about it.

Episode duration: 1:46:42