Shannon Curry: Johnny Depp & Amber Heard Trial, Marriage, Dating & Love | Lex Fridman Podcast #366

Shannon Curry 0:00 So, contempt is criticism on steroids. This is what John Gottman calls sulfuric acid for love. Nothing will erode a relationship quicker than contempt. Contempt is when you are looking at your partner from a superior position. So, you are eye-rolling, you are name-calling, um, there's a mockery, mocking, even physical mockery, um, imitating them, imitating their voice. Contempt is meant to just take the legs out from your partner, make them feel pathetic, ridiculous, um... And it- it can be abusive, but, um, most people have engaged in contempt at some point in their relationship. Lower level would be sort of the eye-rolling, but that is the biggest predictor of a split.

Lex Fridman 0:47 The following is a conversation with Shannon Curry, a clinical and forensic psychologist who conducts research, therapy, and psychological evaluations pertaining to trauma, violence, and relationships. She received worldwide attention in April of last year by giving a lengthy televised testimony on her psychological evaluation of Amber Heard during the Johnny Depp/Amber Heard trial. I found her testimony to be an eloquent description of complex psychological concepts and evaluation procedures. So, I reached out for a chat. In person, she was brilliant, funny, thoughtful, and truly kind. I really, really enjoyed this conversation. This is the Lex Fridman Podcast. To support it, please check out our sponsors in the description. And now, dear friends, here's Shannon Curry.

Lex Fridman 1:38 Charles Bukowski said that "Love is a fog that burns away with the first daylight of reality." I love that quote. Uh, do you think romantic love fades away in this way?

Shannon Curry 1:47 Bukowski.

Lex Fridman 1:48 Uh, does it- does it have to fade?

Shannon Curry 1:50 The truth is that you have all of these chemicals pumping through your body, you're essentially high on heroine in the beginning of a romance, and you're going to have these rose-colored glasses on, everything your partner does is magical, uh, but really, it's the novelty. It's just like going on a vacation, you're fully present, you're just attuned to the magic of another human being moment-to-moment. And then on top of that, you have- you're just flooded with dopamine, so you're high, on drugs, and we can't go on like that. You will die if you are using these kinds of chemicals all the time, all day long. So eventually, our bodies are sort of made to dial it down, we've made it- I mean, we're evolutionary beings. We are doing the same thing we did 200,000 years ago to find a mate, procreate, spend enough time with each other that we have sex a whole bunch of times and make babies. Now, we've changed the rules of the game, we're living, you know, almost til we're 100 years old in some cases, we're making these marriage commitments that last half a century, and, uh, we're expecting (laughs) it to be all because of love, and we're signing these contracts based on how we feel when we're high on these drugs. So, (laughs) the reality is, we know based on the re- and- and I'm also talking about certain Western civilizations here, because as you know, there are arranged marriages, and a lot of times those marriages, if we're looking at longevity, are actually way more satisfied than people who are marrying for love, which logically makes sense. If you're making a decision based on a feeling that is basically based on endorphins and dopamine and oxytocin, I wouldn't sign a contract just because of a feeling, necessary- you know, for 50 years. Whereas an arranged marriage, if you have your elders kind of deciding for you that this partner has a bunch of traits that you're going to appreciate more and more over time, I think there's some wisdom there.

Lex Fridman 3:45 So, you don't think that feeling could be a foundation for a 50-year relationship?

Shannon Curry 3:50 Well, I don't think that specific feeling you're having based on drugs-

Lex Fridman 3:55 Yeah.

Shannon Curry 3:55 ... is going to be the same (laughs) feeling you have 20, 30, 40 years down the line. If you're gonna wake up and turn to your partner when you're 70 and think, "Oh my God, I'm so glad you're hot. You are so hot."

Lex Fridman 4:08 Yeah.

Shannon Curry 4:08 Then sure, marry for hotness.

Lex Fridman 4:10 Yeah.

Shannon Curry 4:10 But if you've been through life a little bit, and I think most people who are on a second marriage know, shit happens in life. It is hard, you're gonna have, you know, maybe a kid with special needs, or your dad gets dementia, um, or you get diagnosed with cancer. Who are you gonna wanna come home to? Who is going to hold you when you are sobbing on the floor and tell you, "We're gonna get through it together"? Who's gonna know the names of your kids' special ed teacher and the process for getting a 504 plan? Or is it gonna be you on your own? I think those things matter.

Lex Fridman 4:45 But doesn't that hotness- don't those drugs kind of solidify into a deeper appreciation of the other person, into something you could call beauty?

Shannon Curry 4:56 Yes.

Lex Fridman 4:56 Uh...

Shannon Curry 4:57 They can.

Lex Fridman 4:58 But- but isn't that the same- isn't that the same thing? When you no- when you notice the beauty of another human being, aren't you- aren't you high on drugs still?

Shannon Curry 5:05 (laughs)

Lex Fridman 5:05 You're making it sound like there's like a- a brief rock star period of going on heroin-

Shannon Curry 5:11 (laughs) .

Lex Fridman 5:11 ... and then it's over, but, like, can't you be on heroin your whole life? A little bit-

Shannon Curry 5:14 I have some good news.

Lex Fridman 5:15 ... microdosing? (laughs)

Shannon Curry 5:15 I have some good news. That was something- I think one of the reasons I got into studying relationships was because I wanted that, right? So, I'm a scientist, but I also love art, and I love writing, and I love literature. I wanted to know that true love could be real, but as a scientist, uh, I am cynical, I just need some data.

Lex Fridman 5:36 Mm-hmm.

Shannon Curry 5:36 And

Shannon Curry 5:37 when- so, I practice a type of therapy called the Gottman Method, and I love that because it tends to be- well, it is one of the most evidenced-based therapies we have based on John and Julie Gottman, two psychologists who have been researching relationships for now about 50 years, and this therapy happens to be for couples. They found that you absolutely......can make longevity work in a relationship. You can build. You are not just settling for companionship, but you can have passion and intimacy, and growing love and appreciation. But there is a blueprint, a set of skills, that we were never given. We're not taught it in school. We changed the rules of the game and we haven't learned the rules yet.

Lex Fridman 6:21 And, uh, the Gottman Method for couples therapy kind of gives you a few guidelines, the rules for-

Shannon Curry 6:26 Right.

Lex Fridman 6:26 ...longevity in a relationship.

Shannon Curry 6:28 Yeah, they did a beautiful job at taking these findings they had through, you know, decades of research, quantifying it, and then s- codifying it into a therapy method. It's really skills-based. I tell couples when they're starting out with me that they're essentially gonna be starting a class.

Lex Fridman 6:46 So, what's the 5:1 golden rule? What I read is there's a kind of balance you can achieve of, uh, how many interactions you have in a relationship that are positive versus negative-

Shannon Curry 6:58 Mm-hmm.

Lex Fridman 6:58 A- and I think that's what the 5:1 means, but basically there should be kind of an empirical... Like, if you just look back-

Shannon Curry 7:06 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 7:06 ...over, over a month, how many of the interactions were positive, how many were negative?

Shannon Curry 7:09 Or the day.

Lex Fridman 7:10 Or the day.

Shannon Curry 7:11 Look at the day, right? So, the idea of this ratio, um... Well, it's not an idea. It was a finding. It is a research finding that the Gottmans got after looking at thousands of couples, um, and codifying these interactions that they were observing. Couples that tend to be satisfied in their relationships, um, that are happier, they have better health, et cetera, they are having approximately five positive interactions to each negative. And I wanna be clear about what I'm defining as positive and negative here. So, this doesn't necessarily mean that you're... These don't need to be big, sweeping, romantic gestures, buying flowers, having sex. These are things like paying attention to what we call your partner's BIDs. Um, we make these BIDs for affection, for connection all the time in our relationships, not just with our partners, but with our friends, our coworkers. And we may not even know what our style of BID is, but if you see them on a sheet, you can pretty quickly identify them. BIDs could be wanting to show your partner, tell your partner something, and have them be proud of you. It could be wanting to go buy groceries with your partner, doing things together. "Hey, you wanna come with me?" It could be telling a joke and hoping that, uh, your wife looks up from her email on the computer and acknowledges it. If she laughs, then you've got a positive, but if I don't even look up, that's a negative, right? So, it's not necessarily that I'm calling my husband an asshole. It's just, am I connecting with him? Am I meeting those BIDs for connection? And vice versa.

Lex Fridman 8:48 But do those also give you a guide of how you should behave?

Shannon Curry 8:52 Well, I think what's really important is actually asking your partner, or paying attention to what your partner's BIDs are, because what matters to Ty, my husband, may not matter to you. For instance, I mean, Ty's bar is so low with me, I... (laughs)

Lex Fridman 9:07 (laughs)

Shannon Curry 9:07 Thank God for him.

Lex Fridman 9:07 In terms of what defines a positive interaction?

Shannon Curry 9:09 Right. Like, he just wants me to ask him if he wants a water when I get up to get myself one.

Lex Fridman 9:16 All right.

Shannon Curry 9:17 Just be a basic, decent, considerate person is all he asks (laughs) of me. Whereas mine might be sort of like, stay up later with me, watch a show, um, go to bed at the same time as me, or, um, know about the people in my life. That sort of a thing.

Lex Fridman 9:32 I should highlight this, and I hope- hopefully it's okay, that you were running a little bit late.

Shannon Curry 9:36 (laughs)

Lex Fridman 9:36 And you sent me this text, which is, which people do really rarely, and there's a subtle act of kindness within that text. So, the- the- you- the- the text you sent was that, um, I just decreased the amount of stress in your life, or something like this-

Shannon Curry 9:51 You did.

Lex Fridman 9:51 ...by saying it's co- it's cool. But that means that you were s- you were- you're signaling that you were stressed because you care enough to be there on time.

Shannon Curry 10:01 Mm-hmm.

Lex Fridman 10:01 And that was like, that made me feel really special. I was like, "Oh." You know, people don't often-

Shannon Curry 10:06 You're a brilliant guy.

Lex Fridman 10:06 People o- don't often- don't always do that, because that puts you also, that makes you vulnerable.

Shannon Curry 10:11 Vulnerable.

Lex Fridman 10:12 And that-

Shannon Curry 10:13 I actually thought that after I sent it.

Lex Fridman 10:15 Mm-hmm.

Shannon Curry 10:15 But I feel that most of the day-

Lex Fridman 10:16 (laughs)

Shannon Curry 10:17 ...in the interaction, like, "Oh, God, I just exposed myself." But absolutely, I was excited to be here, and I didn't want you to, uh, think that I didn't care. I think being a therapist has shown me that it really, it's so lucky to be in that position, because you meet people that you would have thought are cooler than you, or smarter than you, or just somehow impervious to life, and you realize that we are all in it together. We all want to be cared about and liked (laughs) . We all want to be liked as a baseline. I- some people will say they don't care, but everybody does. It's human. And I have gotten much better being a therapist, much more comfortable showing caring, showing love, and genuineness, and vulnerability than I think I ever would have been otherwise.

Lex Fridman 11:04 And that kind of vulnerability is what's required to do a positive interaction in a relationship?

Shannon Curry 11:09 I think so. And- and people have different levels of comfort, right? So, um, but as long as it's working for both partners, and typically you have to communicate to figure out what your partner, what makes your partner feel cared about. However, you might be working, for instance, with an older couple, and I have a couple that's perfectly happy, and they sort of have a system. It works for them. If there's some sort of a rupture, if they get in some sort of a disagreement, they don't talk it out. She might go to the store, run an errand, doing a lit- do a little shopping. He'll work in the wood shop, and then they'll come back and there is a repair attempt though-

Lex Fridman 11:45 Mm-hmm.

Shannon Curry 11:45 ...but it's maybe she'll say, "Hey, do you wanna have dinner? Come. You know, I made your favorite dinner." And, or he'll say, "Hey, I recorded your favorite show. You wanna watch it tonight?" So, they don't need to process it, but there is an understanding between them that, "We're still in this together. We care about each other," and there's a repair attempt.... most people need to be able to process it verbally and talk about what happened.

Lex Fridman 12:06 Oh, interesting.

Shannon Curry 12:07 But not all.

Lex Fridman 12:07 So for most people, if there's a conflict, you should talk about it and resolve it and repair it, versus, like, just put it behind you?

Shannon Curry 12:15 Y- I, I don't want to say should. I guess it depends on the couple.

Lex Fridman 12:18 Yeah.

Shannon Curry 12:19 Everybody processes emotions differently. Everybody handles emotional expression differently. I mean, I have couples where I have one person in the partnership who has autism and the other doesn't, and so they're obviously going to have different ways of communicating or processing what happened. We all have different perspectives. It really depends on what makes a person feel like it's been repaired, what makes a person feel understood. Does that need to be verbal? Or, in the case of that older couple I have where they know they understand one another because there's a gentleness toward one another after.

Lex Fridman 12:54 What are some common ways relationships fail that you've observed in all the therapy you've done?

Shannon Curry 12:59 Oh. Well, the Gottmans identified what they call the four horsemen of the apocalypse. So... (laughs)

Lex Fridman 13:05 (laughs) Okay, what are the four horsemen of the apocalypse?

Shannon Curry 13:06 (laughs) I mean, I could just keep it simple and go off their research. So there, those are four different behaviors that they identify in couples, or that you can identify in couples, that are really highly predictive of a divorce, some more than others. But I'll start with the lower ones. So one thing that we... Uh, by the way, actually, we all do these things.

Lex Fridman 13:28 Mm-hmm.

Shannon Curry 13:28 These would be in that five-to-one ratio. You'd wanna stay away from some of these. These are the ones. So as they pile up, now that ratio's gonna get imbalanced, and then you are headed for a split.

Lex Fridman 13:39 Yeah.

Shannon Curry 13:40 Okay? So the first is criticism. So criticism is when we have a complaint. Complaints are normal, but instead of owning our own problems, our own feelings, we assume that our perspective is com- the only valid, accurate perspective, and so we, uh, take it upon ourselves to tell our partner what is wrong with them.

Lex Fridman 14:01 Mm-hmm.

Shannon Curry 14:01 Okay? So there, there's essentially no real belief that they might have a valid perspective too. So, uh, this could look like, "You never help me out in that, with the house," or even, um, "You're so lazy. Can't, like, can't I just get you for five seconds to help with the kids?" Or something like that. Um, and then what happens is horseman number two, defensiveness. So, uh, not everybody is defensive just because they were criticized. Some people just are more prone to defensiveness than others. None of us really like admitting our faults, so it's pretty natural. But defensiveness is essentially making excuses, or worse, turning it around on your partner, um, not accepting any responsibility, and definitely not validating what they're feeling. Now, if you get criticized enough, or if you get really flooded ... The flooding is what happens when our heart rate goes up kind of around 100 beats per minute. Our frontal lobe shuts down. That's our thoughtful brain, our logical brain.

Lex Fridman 15:03 Mm-hmm.

Shannon Curry 15:03 And our reptilian kind of hindbrain takes over our thinking, and we just go into fight-or-flight, in a way. We, we just want to annihilate our partner instea- instead of say anything that would be helpful to the relationship. So if you're getting flooded, you could do a couple things. You could get super critical, you could get contemptuous, which I'll talk about in a second, it's the last horseman, or you do the third horseman, which is stonewalling. And in their research, the Gottmans found that men are actually more likely to stonewall. I also am someone who stonewalls. (laughs) But it's where you just sort of disconnect from the conversation.

Lex Fridman 15:41 Mm-hmm.

Shannon Curry 15:41 You shut down, you turn away. You can physically even turn away-

Lex Fridman 15:46 Mm-hmm.

Shannon Curry 15:46 ... kind of arms crossed, but you're just, you're shut off. And stonewalling happens usually because you get flooded. You feel like you can't win, you don't know what to do to make the situation better. It feels pretty hopeless, and talking feels unproductive. So you can see how in a typical heterosexual relationship, the gender dynamic, we know that women tend to use criticism more often, because they're the ones that typically raise issues verbally, and then if men are feeling more criticized, that they tend to stonewall. And it becomes this vicious cycle of then more criticism, but the criticism is really just a plea to be loved and get your partner to show you they care.

Lex Fridman 16:26 Mm-hmm.

Shannon Curry 16:27 And then the man tends to feel like he can't do anything right. "This isn't even productive. If I say anything, I'm just gonna make it worse." And they don't have any real ... You haven't given them a specific need, a solution, something they can do to shine for you, so they turn away.

Lex Fridman 16:43 And where does the, uh, contempt come in?

Shannon Curry 16:45 All right. So contempt is criticism on steroids. This is what John Gottman calls sulfuric acid for love. Nothing will erode a relationship quicker than contempt. Contempt is when you are looking at your partner from a superior position. So you are eye-rolling, you are name-calling. Um, there's a mockery, mocking you, even physical mockery, um, imitating them, imitating their voice. Contempt is meant to just take the legs out from your partner, make them feel pathetic, ridiculous. Um, and it b- it can be abusive. But, um, most people have engaged in contempt at some point in their relationship. Lower level would be sort of the eye-rolling, but that is the biggest predictor of a split.

Lex Fridman 17:30 If you allow yourself to think, yeah, that mockery or contempt just a little bit, it's like this weird slippery slope.

Shannon Curry 17:38 Sure is.

Lex Fridman 17:39 And the opposite is true, where I just look at a person and think, "Wow, isn't that the most, like, wonderful creature I've ever seen in my life."

Shannon Curry 17:49 (laughs) Hmm. Hmm.

Lex Fridman 17:49 I just think that. And you notice-

Shannon Curry 17:50 That's lovely.

Lex Fridman 17:50 ... the little details about who they are.

Shannon Curry 17:52 Mm-hmm.

Lex Fridman 17:52 And so I just observe them the way you observe like a weird like peacock at a zoo or something like that.

Shannon Curry 17:57 Intention is powerful, isn't it?

Lex Fridman 17:59 Yeah. And it changes. It change. You start to notice-

Shannon Curry 18:01 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 18:01 ... beautiful things and then let ...... uh, the things that annoy you.

Shannon Curry 18:05 Yes.

Lex Fridman 18:06 Like, just-

Shannon Curry 18:07 You're exactly right. You're touching on some really important things.

Lex Fridman 18:10 ... dissipate.

Shannon Curry 18:11 So, in relationships, we actually know that wearing rose-colored glasses is important, it's healthy, we need it. Um, and it's a choice you're making, right? So, there is a saying that, uh, getting married is just choosing one person's faults over another.

Lex Fridman 18:28 Mm-hmm.

Shannon Curry 18:29 And the reality is that we may become infatuated with somebody else. As human beings, love is an emotion, attraction is emosh- an emotion, and as you go through life, even if you're in a committed relationship, you might see beauty in another, and that person who is novel might seem attractive to you. But if you can remember that they too have a set of problems that you would be marrying, it really helps you to see the beauty in your partner again-

Lex Fridman 18:57 Mm-hmm.

Shannon Curry 18:57 ... and recognize all of their incredible strengths and all the ways we meld with a person and, uh, become our own family, almost become... I mean, our lives intertwine, and we grow those oak trees.

Lex Fridman 19:10 So, to... By the way, this is a line I read somewhere that, uh, when you're wearing rose-colored glasses, all the red flags looks just like flags.

Shannon Curry 19:18 (laughs)

Lex Fridman 19:19 So (laughs) so I think it's a good-

Shannon Curry 19:21 I love that.

Lex Fridman 19:21 It's a good line.

Shannon Curry 19:21 I love that.

Lex Fridman 19:22 Uh, so you, so you think that humans are fundamentally... All of us are fundamentally flawed or have flaws, they're unique flaws-

Shannon Curry 19:31 Mm-hmm.

Lex Fridman 19:31 ... and that basically relationships is just a way to, um, figure out how the two can fit together?

Shannon Curry 19:37 Right. And we're different, so no matter what, we're going to have differences.

Lex Fridman 19:41 Yeah.

Shannon Curry 19:41 We are raised differently than our partner. We have different stories, different ch- experiences that shaped our value systems, especially when it comes to the big ones, like parenting, love, money, um, th- these principles that are based on our history. Um, we're gonna have differences. So, are... Is this a set of differences you can accept from somebody and work with? Do the benefits and d- their strengths, um, do they make it worth it, or is it... are they deal-breaker differences?

Lex Fridman 20:11 Uh, tricky question.

Shannon Curry 20:12 Sure.

Lex Fridman 20:12 But, uh, in the, in the couples you've worked with, is there, like, the feminine and the masculine? Is there different dynamics that come into play, uh, like dominant/submissive? Is there, is it like a dance where it just changes from minute to minute? Is there di- is there dynamics that you observe that both limit and enable, uh, successful relationships?

Shannon Curry 20:35 Yes, so there are... If we're talking about masculine/feminine, then how also are... we could get into... are we talking about actual gender, identified gender, or are we just talking about these traits? Because like I said, I stonewall, which is typically in couples, something that is more associated with straight men, um, but that's my style of coping when I get overwhelmed. Uh, that is not tied to any sort of success or non-success of a relationship. But what we do know is that gay couples, so lesbians and gay men, tend to be gentler with one another when they are having conflict discussions. I... So, that's actually been identified in the research, and it's something I've witnessed, and it's just fascinating. So, with my straight couples, I'll be going through one of these... If we're processing a conflict that occurred, I'll be going through the sheet, and it's very, very structured, because you don't want couples doing more damage when they're there with you. You want them practicing skills that protect them from criticism, that protect them from contempt. And when I'm working with a straight couple, I am like a referee, or sometimes I'll relate it to being like a ski coach and keeping people on a bunny hill, and you tell them... you let them make, like, two turns, and then you stop them-

Lex Fridman 21:53 Mm-hmm.

Shannon Curry 21:53 ... and you meet up again, because you don't want them to veer off. With straight couples, you are doing very short turns before you need to kinda intervene and re-scaffold. I had a lesbian couple recently, and they were so lovely with each other. They skipped, like, seven steps to the advanced final portion where they were already coming up with solutions and suggesting things that they might be able to do differently next time to make it better for their partner. They were asking each other questions about how their partner felt with no agenda, no attempt to sort of be like, "Well, do you think you're feeling that way because..." which straight couples do all the time. Um, you just see this humility and openness. It's lovely.

Lex Fridman 22:33 Yeah, it's lovely. But I wonder if, uh, maybe I'm watching too many Hollywood films, if some of the drama, some of the tension is required for a passionate, lifelong romance.

Shannon Curry 22:45 No, it's not, and that's great news. So, we actually know- (laughs)

Lex Fridman 22:50 Yes.

Shannon Curry 22:50 ... that the closer you feel to your partner, so if... I mean, you're, you've talked a lot about beauty.

Lex Fridman 22:57 Mm-hmm.

Shannon Curry 22:57 And you can ignite that beauty, that interest, right? So, when you're falling in love, it's usually that a person is sort of a mystery to you, and you're uncovering these layers that you find really appealing.

Lex Fridman 23:10 Mm-hmm.

Shannon Curry 23:12 There are continual layers that you can uncover with your partner over time. I don't think we realize that. I think we get complacent, and we think we've had every conversation imaginable. "What- what else are they gonna do to surprise me?" But we don't know the questions to be asking. One of my favorite questions... Um, I like turning these conversations kind of into a quiz, because I get bored easily. (laughs)

Lex Fridman 23:35 Okay.

Shannon Curry 23:35 So, you... Rather than just asking an open-ended question, um, there's a way you can do this with your partner where it's sort of like the dating game. Like, "What is my, as of yet, fondest but unrealized life dream?" And see if your partner knows. You might not even know.

Lex Fridman 23:52 Mm-hmm.

Shannon Curry 23:52 They might know you better than you know yourself. That in and of itself is a beautiful reminder of the relationship and how special it is. But then also, um, when they...... say it, or when you realize or have to think critically, like, "What is my husband's as of yet unrealized but fondest life dream?" And then you can talk about it, you just... I don't know. You just kind of transcend into this new area, and you feel tight again. You feel like... You feel close.

Lex Fridman 24:23 Where you really talk to each other. Like, I, I've, uh-

Shannon Curry 24:26 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 24:27 ... I recorded and without intending to publish, uh, podcasts like this-

Shannon Curry 24:33 Mm-hmm.

Lex Fridman 24:33 ... with microphones, with, with, with friends, with people close to me, because it's literally that. You get to ask questions like as if it's an interview.

Shannon Curry 24:41 Right.

Lex Fridman 24:42 And we don't do that-

Shannon Curry 24:43 That's exactly it. The way you're-

Lex Fridman 24:44 ... with each other.

Shannon Curry 24:45 ... talking with me-

Lex Fridman 24:45 Yeah.

Shannon Curry 24:46 ... sit down with your partner, have that conversation.

Lex Fridman 24:48 Like, years later.

Shannon Curry 24:50 Right. Show interest. Actually be curious. See, see what they surprise you with.

Lex Fridman 24:54 And actually, what you learn is you don't know the answers to most of these questions.

Shannon Curry 24:59 100%.

Lex Fridman 25:00 (laughs) You-

Shannon Curry 25:00 Exactly.

Lex Fridman 25:01 Like, like, "What, what's your favorite movie from the '80s?" You might not know the answer to that. It's like those first date-

Shannon Curry 25:07 Right.

Lex Fridman 25:07 ... questions or whatever.

Shannon Curry 25:08 Or, "What's your favorite movie this year and why?"

Lex Fridman 25:10 And why, yeah. It's fascinating.

Shannon Curry 25:12 Mm-hmm. It is.

Lex Fridman 25:14 It's hard to do that because I think that you'll probably be offended at first how little the other person knows.

Shannon Curry 25:19 (laughs)

Lex Fridman 25:19 So, I think that you have to work through that.

Shannon Curry 25:21 You know, I actually find that there's this rekindling-

Lex Fridman 25:25 Mm-hmm.

Shannon Curry 25:25 ... because partners are shocked that their partner does know so much about them.

Lex Fridman 25:30 Oh.

Shannon Curry 25:31 Especially if they've been feeling dissatisfied or disconnected. It's a reminder of all the good that's still there.

Lex Fridman 25:38 What, uh... I know we've said some of those things, but what's on the opposite side, what's the key to a successful relationship? What's like, what are the things you see time and time again that, to you, designate that they're on a good path?

Shannon Curry 25:51 Yeah. There's a real attunement, honestly. Just it's, um, sort of an us-against-the-world feeling. Nobody... Neither partner's gonna talk shit on them, the other. Uh, there's a loyalty.

Lex Fridman 26:03 Mm.

Shannon Curry 26:03 Um, they handle each other and the relationship with care. You can tell that they've worked some things... Uh, I, to me, it usually indicates that these are some people who have figured, they've had to work some things out. They know that this is delicate. They know, um, you know, that y- you're on thin ice. You take a wrong step, and you can be back in a tough place in your relationship. Or you treat it with care, and it can be amazing. So, they're careful with one another. They give each other compliments. They are considerate. So, you'll see, um, you know, he'll bring the car around for her because it's raining, or, um, she'll bring him home some takeout. You know, she'll order for him, too, at the restaurant. There's just kind... They keep each other in each other's minds.

Lex Fridman 26:49 But that us-against-the-world thing.

Shannon Curry 26:51 Mm-hmm.

Lex Fridman 26:53 That definitely is there. Like if you-

Shannon Curry 26:54 100%. You've seen that, right?

Lex Fridman 26:56 Yeah.

Shannon Curry 26:56 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 26:56 You've seen it. And you've seen it, like, um... I like it when couples have been together for a long time, and when one is talking, the other one looks at them. If you don't do that, that's not a bad sign, but it's a good sign when you do that-

Shannon Curry 27:09 Yes.

Lex Fridman 27:09 ... because, uh, and I think it's actually a really good, um, exercise to do-

Shannon Curry 27:14 Mm-hmm.

Lex Fridman 27:14 ... 'cause I, because I enjoy when I see in others. So, it's, it's, it's, um, it's a way to sh- show that you don't take them for granted-

Shannon Curry 27:24 Mm-hmm.

Lex Fridman 27:25 ... and that you still find them like this mysterious, wonderful-

Shannon Curry 27:28 (laughs)

Lex Fridman 27:28 ... creature to observe. Like, I think too often, we have that with our parents-

Shannon Curry 27:33 Hmm.

Lex Fridman 27:33 ... we have that with, um, people close to us. You think, "Yeah, I've heard what they're about to say. I know."

Shannon Curry 27:39 Mm-hmm.

Lex Fridman 27:39 "I know you can complete their sentences."

Shannon Curry 27:40 Yeah, take them for granted.

Lex Fridman 27:41 And then, if you, if you just look at them and say, "Wow, this is the most brilliant person-"

Shannon Curry 27:45 Mm-hmm.

Lex Fridman 27:45 "... I've ever seen in my life. Most, I can't..." You know, y- you just appreciate every word that comes out of them and look at them in that way, you actually begin to believe it.

Shannon Curry 27:55 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 27:56 And you actually begin to-

Shannon Curry 27:57 It's intense.

Lex Fridman 27:57 ... see the beauty of what they're saying.

Shannon Curry 27:59 You are exactly right. It's a self-fulfilling prophecy.

Lex Fridman 28:02 And they give it to you.

Shannon Curry 28:03 And it's caring, yeah.

Lex Fridman 28:04 Yeah.

Shannon Curry 28:04 It's very caring. So, that's... I mean, that's, I think, the beauty of what the Gottman research showed us, taught us, provided us, is that we can do these things that become cyclic and just keep growing this relationship, making it stronger, more powerful, more loving. You would never want to cut it down.

Lex Fridman 28:24 Well, we... You were talking about this sheet for conflict processing.

Shannon Curry 28:28 (laughs)

Lex Fridman 28:28 What are we talking about? So like, a couple will come and say like, "There was this conflict."

Shannon Curry 28:32 Mm-hmm.

Lex Fridman 28:32 And you put it on the table, and then what does it mean to process it?

Shannon Curry 28:35 Well, so in that Gottman method of therapy, there are all these different, I mean, hundreds of different interventions. And based on what the issue is in that session, you can decide the most appropriate intervention.

Lex Fridman 28:46 Okay.

Shannon Curry 28:47 And so, this is a specific intervention for if it is a conflict that occurred, and there are different types of conflicts. So, this would be more like an incident. It's not a perpetual recurring problem, um, which has actually a different intervention, where you kind of look at the underlying belief systems, values, and there's... The goal is not to solve that problem. The goal in that situation is to actually just get a better understanding of each other and your positions, and just you stop seeing your partner as the adversary, and you start seeing them as a person who makes sense. Um, but if there's been a specific event, a specific fight that's just sort of situational, uh, but it's left bad blood. Things were said, or you didn't feel understood. This intervention I was talking about is one that you would... Goes through a series of steps where first you identify the emotions that you were feeling, then you describe, play-by-play, your movie, your perspective. If your partner were looking through your eyes, this is what they heard, saw, thought, then they saw this, then they heard this. So, you're not saying, "Yeah, then you came in and were yelling and acting crazy." You're saying, "So then I saw you come in. I heard you say, and I thought to myself, well great, now everything's ruined." Right?

Lex Fridman 30:10 Mm-hmm.

Shannon Curry 30:10 So, you're showing them your movie, then they have to summarize the movie for you.... and then vice versa. And then there's this, um, step where e- each person validates some part that they can understand. Like, "Based on what you saw, heard, I can't actually understand how you felt one of those feelings that you said." Then my favorite part is you rewind sort of the movie from that day back through into childhood, and you land on a time, a memory when you felt a similar set of feelings. And this is, like, the most beautiful part ever, because let's say the feeling was, "I felt misunderstood. I felt, um, misjudged, uncared about, unloved. Um, like, you didn't even like me." And I'll say, "When did you feel that way?" You know, land on a time, and they're like, "My whole childhood." You know? "My parents were... My mom was always accusing me of doing things I wasn't doing, and it would set me up, and my dad would come home, he'd hear about it, he would just believe her." And then you have, like, a partner climbing up on the couch to, like, give their partner a hug while they're sharing the story. It's beautiful, and it changes the way you interact in future disagreements.

Lex Fridman 31:20 So, you have those moments.

Shannon Curry 31:21 Yeah. You can't unlearn... Now you know this about your partner. You know what they're sensitive to.

Lex Fridman 31:27 Yeah. Yeah, and y- again, you kind of see the, the beauty and the flaws, then.

Shannon Curry 31:31 Right.

Lex Fridman 31:31 And then you, you're mar- (laughs) yeah.

Shannon Curry 31:33 It all makes sense, right?

Lex Fridman 31:34 Yeah. It all, it all kind of makes sense.

Shannon Curry 31:35 Yeah. So, you maybe were in this-

Lex Fridman 31:37 Yeah.

Shannon Curry 31:37 ... dumpster dive in your head of how your partner sucks and all the things that are wrong with them, and it's so hopeless, and then you get this light shining through, and you realize, "Oh, my God. Of course they would be sensitive to that." And suddenly, it's not about all the ways your partner is wrong and proving that they're wrong. It's just, "How can I, in the future, make sure they do not (laughs) feel this again? I would never want this person I love to misunderstand me and feel so unloved."

Lex Fridman 32:03 What, what do you, uh... The early days of that, what, what do you think about the whole dating, modern dating process? How do you find a partner that you can, um, stay with for the rest of your life?

Shannon Curry 32:15 So, we are absolutely doing it wrong.

Lex Fridman 32:18 (laughs)

Shannon Curry 32:18 And, um, but there is a way you can do it, and I am such a fan of this psychologist, Ty Tashiro. I adore him. He is brilliant. He's lovely. He's also very humble. Just a wonderful, salt-of-the-earth guy. I'm gonna tell you a very true story here.

Lex Fridman 32:33 Uh-huh.

Shannon Curry 32:33 Okay?

Lex Fridman 32:34 Let's go.

Shannon Curry 32:34 I was in a bad relationship, and I was, um, at a psychology conference with my partner at the time. Um, we were both at this conference, and we were sitting in a lecture hall, uh, there for Ty Tashiro to do his talk that day on his phenomenal research on relationship satisfaction and dating. Um, and I was sitting next to him, and we'd been, you know... It was just always unpleasant on trips. There were always fights. We're sitting there, and Ty Tashiro starts talking about his research and how he found that most people are, you know, signing this agreement, getting married, and doing it based on the love endorphins, and really only about 35% of anybody who's married is actually happy. Um, and he said, "So then," you know, and-

Lex Fridman 33:24 That's a pretty low number.

Shannon Curry 33:25 Exactly. But here's what I love about Ty Tashiro, is he didn't stop there. He wanted to know what those people who were happy, um, had in common, and then same thing with the people who were unhappy. He found a couple fascinating patterns. So, the couples who were happy tended to rate their partners higher in three different traits, and I love talking about this, because if you are somebody who can follow instructions, you can find this. (laughs) I mean, very easily. Um, those three traits tend to be conscientiousness. Okay? And I love the word conscientiousness, because it's not just kindness. Kindness is a good way to think of it, but you can be kind and kind of be a pushover, and that's not attractive. Conscientiousness is smart, attentive. It's somebody who reads into a text message and thinks, "Wow, she was making herself very vulnerable there." (laughs) That's conscientiousness.

Lex Fridman 34:25 I like how you're just doing a compliment.

Shannon Curry 34:26 No, but it's-

Lex Fridman 34:27 Appreciate it. (laughs)

Shannon Curry 34:27 ... it's true. It's a certain intelligence, awareness, and attunement.

Lex Fridman 34:31 Yep. Yeah.

Shannon Curry 34:32 And then on top of that, conscientiousness is motivated. So, you can't be on your ass all day and be conscientious, 'cause then you can't meet the needs that you anticipate about the person. So, conscientious is that guy who drives the car around in the rainstorm so his wife's hair doesn't get met. It's my husband who checks my alarm for me every morning 'cause he knows I'm terrible at time management, and he makes sure that I set it a reasonable amount of time before my first meeting-

Lex Fridman 34:57 Yeah.

Shannon Curry 34:57 ... and not the 20 minutes I think I need.

Lex Fridman 35:00 Yeah.

Shannon Curry 35:00 (laughs) Um, and then he'll come wake me up with a cup of coffee. That is ultimate conscientiousness. And it is true. I mean, l- I will tell you, as somebody who's with a conscientious partner, your love increases over time as you continue to feel grateful and admiring of that person. Um, the second one, you want somebody who is low in a big five personality trait called neuroticism. Um, you want somebody emotionally stable, in a way. Uh, now, this doesn't mean you can't have somebody who doesn't get the blues or struggle with mental health issues. Trust me. Ty is with somebody who (laughs) , you know, I get... I'm all over the place. But you want somebody who kind of owns their shit and isn't going to just be emotionally unstable all over... You know. You want somebody who is generally happy and has some life satisfaction. Um, having a partner who has serious m- not mental health issues, but unmitigated emotional distress and instability is really hard on the partner, and it's really hard on other family members, including children, if you have children. So, it's just a predictor of happiness.

Lex Fridman 36:12 So, a cert- there's a certain threshold of chaos that, if you exceed it-

Shannon Curry 36:16 Well said.

Lex Fridman 36:16 ... it's going to be destructive to a-

Shannon Curry 36:18 That is-

Lex Fridman 36:18 ... long-term relationship.

Shannon Curry 36:19 ... a perfect description.

Lex Fridman 36:21 But then again-

Shannon Curry 36:21 It's about chaos.Not the mystery, chaos you love as your-

Lex Fridman 36:25 (laughs)

Shannon Curry 36:25 ... with your little pro- poet brain.

Lex Fridman 36:27 Yeah.

Shannon Curry 36:27 I'm talking more, like, just somebody who y- there's just no peace.

Lex Fridman 36:32 Yeah.

Shannon Curry 36:32 There's no peace. There's a problem with everything. Everything becomes more difficult. Going to a party is a chore, a d- you don't know if they're gonna have a meltdown at the party, or how many complaints about your friends, or, um... Everything is a problem. So, you want somebody who has just some resiliency, I think is a good term for it, some flexibility.

Lex Fridman 36:53 Some spice is okay, but not too much, like, uh...

Shannon Curry 36:55 Right. Flexibility, resiliency, easygoing.

Lex Fridman 36:58 Yeah.

Shannon Curry 36:58 Okay?

Lex Fridman 36:59 Uh...

Shannon Curry 36:59 The third-

Lex Fridman 37:00 Yeah.

Shannon Curry 37:01 ... is, um, really interesting, I think. So, he found that having a partner with sort of moderate adventurousness, not high adventurousness, actually leads to greater s- greater satisfaction. And the reason for that is high adventurousness equals novelty-seeking.

Lex Fridman 37:20 Wow.

Shannon Curry 37:20 Shiny new things. And so, if you're in a monogamous relationship, if that is what's important to you, it's going to be very hard for a partner who is novelty-seeking to be faithful. Um, so that will cause a lot of pain. But also, um, novelty-seeking people tend to always have new projects, new interesting things, and so their attention is drawn away from the relationship. Um, and so you can just feel pretty neglected or unimportant.

Lex Fridman 37:49 By a little bit.

Shannon Curry 37:51 But you want a little bit of adventurousness. So, you want your person to be, uh, sort of self-motivated, uh, individuated, have their own interests, not completely dependent on you. But also, I mean, low adventurousness is not a bad thing. Ultimately, what you're getting with low to moderate adventurousness is that rock, that feeling of stability, that home. And I gai- made some references earlier, like, when you're 70 and you turn to your partner, do you want them to be hot, or... You know, for instance, my dad has dementia right now. And my husband turned to me on the plane, we were all coming back from a trip and where we really saw how severe it- it's getting. And, uh, he just turned to me. He knew how much pain I was in, even though I might- wasn't showing it, and he said, "I want you to know that if it comes to a point where we need to take care of your dad, he needs to live with us, you don't even need to ask." He goes, "I am 100% on board and will help." And, uh, those are the things that matter, that home feeling. And technically, that's a trait that's usually... That's sort of a... My husband caring so much about family, and home, and taking care of things that matter, those are things that tend to be associated with that low to moderate adventurousness, somebody who really cares about simple things and family.

Lex Fridman 39:02 I wonder if those things, those, those three things are something you can work on. You know, conscientiousness, you can probably...

Shannon Curry 39:09 You can.

Lex Fridman 39:10 ... proactively observe yourself...

Shannon Curry 39:12 Mm-hmm.

Lex Fridman 39:13 ... and, uh, you know, do it more regularly.

Shannon Curry 39:16 Right.

Lex Fridman 39:16 Neuroticism might be the hardest one, probably, to control.

Shannon Curry 39:19 I think so. Well, I mean, I, I was pretty neurotic in my early 20s.

Lex Fridman 39:24 And when you wake up to it, maybe you, uh, if you're self-aware about it, maybe-

Shannon Curry 39:28 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 39:28 ... you'll be able to control it, but, yeah.

Shannon Curry 39:29 Yeah, I think self-awareness is key. The- I think, I think that's why I love therapy so much. I think life is about growth and our potential for growth, and to, um, make our own lives better, to make the lives of others better, to serve others, to heal. All of us are this collective healing. And I think we're all capable of growth.

Lex Fridman 39:47 And the same with adventurousness. You can... I'm somebody that's pretty, (laughs) pretty low, uh, on adventure, but I keep throwing myself out there just for the-

Shannon Curry 39:56 Right.

Lex Fridman 39:56 ... extra adventure, so you can grow in that way.

Shannon Curry 39:58 Yes. And I am high in adventurousness, and I was not really ready to settle down. I was married earlier, um, in my 20s. But I would say that I am much more prepared to be in a committed, long-term relationship now in my 40s than I was when I was younger.

Lex Fridman 40:13 But in that same way, for me, I like to connect myself to high-adventure people so that it, like, brings me, brings me out. It's like, uh, they're a horse and I get to ride them or something.

Shannon Curry 40:22 Yeah. And that's the thing. So, high-adventure people are attractive, they're interesting, exciting, but it can be a world of heartbreak, because, you know, you're only under that spotlight for a few minutes, and then they're onto the next shiny thing.

Lex Fridman 40:34 Yeah, but heartbreak is part of love.

Shannon Curry 40:36 (laughs)

Lex Fridman 40:36 But that might be the drug thing that you were talking about.

Lex Fridman 40:39 Speaking of adventurousness, what about sex?

Shannon Curry 40:42 Oh, sex is important.

Lex Fridman 40:42 What role does sex play in a successful relationship?

Shannon Curry 40:45 Well, it, okay, so I'm saying it's important, but I want to qualify that. Everybody has different levels of sex that are satisfying to them.

Lex Fridman 40:54 Mm-hmm.

Shannon Curry 40:54 Sex can definitely bond you to your partner. Orgasms are amazing. They de-stress us. They're healthy. They... I mean, you can have an orgasm and have a lower level of stress for 48 hours. I think that's pretty incredible. Um, if you have, uh, I mean, just that kind of physical contact with your partner, even a 20-second hug with your partner has similar benefits to an orgasm. You're gonna have a lower stress level. You're gonna feel immediately close to your partner. You're gonna get a rus- a rush of oxytocin, which is gonna make you feel happier, um, more grounded throughout the day. So, that's a 20-second hug. You extrapolate that to sex, and things are gonna be great.

Lex Fridman 41:34 Mm-hmm. So, it's just physiological.

Shannon Curry 41:36 Mm-hmm.

Lex Fridman 41:37 But I wonder, there's probably metrics about how often you have sex, how that correlates to successful relationships and so on.

Shannon Curry 41:43 (laughs) Well, there are, but it really has more to do... It's sort of like, remember I was talking about processing conflict, and what matters is do people feel like it's been resolved? Do they feel like there's been a repair?

Lex Fridman 41:54 Yeah.

Shannon Curry 41:54 Not necessarily how they go about doing it. Same with sex. Do, does each partner feel sexually satisfied? Um, so that could be once a month for one couple. It could be five times a week for another couple. It could be never for other couples, truly. Um, I mean, so sex has a ton of benefits, but its absence isn't necessarily detrimental, I guess would be the qualifier, depending on who you are.

Lex Fridman 42:19 Yeah. I know couples that use sex to, f- as part of the conflict resolution process. (laughs)

Shannon Curry 42:25 It's hugely effective for that-

Lex Fridman 42:27 (laughs)

Shannon Curry 42:27 ... if it works for both parties.

Lex Fridman 42:28 Yeah, that's-

Shannon Curry 42:29 All parties.

Lex Fridman 42:30 Yeah, that's true.

Shannon Curry 42:30 Not just both. All.

Lex Fridman 42:31 That's true.

Lex Fridman 42:32 Um, what do you think about infidelity? Um, you know-What's the cause of infidelity? Why do men and women cheat?

Shannon Curry 42:41 It's different for everybody, but I mean, even earlier, I was saying with adventurousness, like, if monogamy is something you're doing. Uh, I- I- I've seen in my own practice, I've seen the entire range of couples who are open about having sexual relationships with other people, um, and fine with it, couples who want to be fine with it, but find out they're not, um, uh, couples who aren't just couples, couples with multiple people, you know, multiple romantic relationships. Um, I've had couples where affairs all are tolerated and not talked about. Um, they're not enjoyed, but they are not the type of betrayal that will destroy the relationship. A sort of a understanding and keep it out of my face.

Lex Fridman 43:27 So-

Shannon Curry 43:27 And then also, we won't talk about it. (clears throat)

Lex Fridman 43:29 So, an affair that happened without getting permission first-

Shannon Curry 43:32 Mm-hmm.

Lex Fridman 43:33 ... and as long as you don't talk about it-

Shannon Curry 43:35 Right.

Lex Fridman 43:35 ... it's not going to do a damage to the relationship.

Shannon Curry 43:37 Right. But-

Lex Fridman 43:38 Or significant.

Shannon Curry 43:38 ... we can't even talk about it like that, right? So-

Lex Fridman 43:40 Okay.

Shannon Curry 43:40 ... nobody is going to admit that the affair is happening.

Lex Fridman 43:44 Right.

Shannon Curry 43:44 Um, there can't be any evidence of it. It's sort of a "just look the other way" type of a situation. But, uh, the partner who is not having the affair, right, they typically know. Um, they certainly know that their partner is capable of that. Um, they just kind of know, but they don't want it in their face. It would become a problem if it was in their face. Um, as long as certain needs are met and everything else is okay at home, it's just one of those things where, don't ask, don't tell.

Lex Fridman 44:15 Well, that- that's an interesting point, because I've, I had a bunch of arguments with people. Uh, I tend to hang out with, especially in the tech sector, uh, people who really value, like, honesty-

Shannon Curry 44:27 Mm-hmm.

Lex Fridman 44:27 ... and radical honesty, and I keep arguing with people about this, because to me, it's not that simple. Like, that- that's an example right there of that honesty can be really destructive. (laughs)

Shannon Curry 44:38 Mm-hmm.

Lex Fridman 44:38 (laughs) Like, h- honesty is also a really complicated thing to get to the bottom of, because what is really honest?

Shannon Curry 44:44 Yes.

Lex Fridman 44:45 And- and-

Shannon Curry 44:45 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 44:45 ... you know, like, how do I look in this dress? (laughs) Like, there's a million ways-

Shannon Curry 44:50 It's perspective. It's perspective.

Lex Fridman 44:51 ... to answer that.

Shannon Curry 44:51 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 44:51 Perspec- a lot of it-

Shannon Curry 44:52 It can be a cesspool in my mind, if I'm in a bad place or my partner and I haven't b- like, if Talia and I haven't been connected lately, my honesty of what I actually think about him- (laughs)

Lex Fridman 45:02 Yeah, exactly.

Shannon Curry 45:02 ... would be horrifically damaging and completely unfounded, also. And-

Lex Fridman 45:06 Yeah.

Shannon Curry 45:07 But- and it can change on a dime.

Lex Fridman 45:08 Mm-hmm.

Shannon Curry 45:09 It can change on a dime.

Lex Fridman 45:09 But that's also not actual honesty to the big picture of-

Shannon Curry 45:13 Right.

Lex Fridman 45:13 ... uh, how you feel about him. I have interacted with a few folks-

Shannon Curry 45:16 Mm-hmm.

Lex Fridman 45:16 ... who talk about their previous sexual partners, for example, how the numbers-

Shannon Curry 45:20 Mm-hmm.

Lex Fridman 45:20 ... of sexual partners they've had, and they feel like that's, that, that kind of honesty is actually empowering, enriching to the relationship.

Shannon Curry 45:30 Mm-hmm.

Lex Fridman 45:30 Because all the exper- sexual experiences you've had in the past make you a better sexual partner, b- better partner in- in the present.

Shannon Curry 45:38 Mm-hmm.

Lex Fridman 45:38 And to me, from the culture I've come from-

Shannon Curry 45:40 Mm-hmm.

Lex Fridman 45:40 ... that's like anti-romantic. (laughs)

Shannon Curry 45:42 Culture is so big in this, yep. Yep.

Lex Fridman 45:43 Like, I, you kind of throw the past kind of away.

Shannon Curry 45:47 Right.

Lex Fridman 45:47 You don't really talk about it. It's kind of there in this amorphous shape, but it's almost as if you've met together for the first time, and this is a beautiful new thing, like, you're creatures-

Shannon Curry 46:00 Mm-hmm.

Lex Fridman 46:00 ... that have woken up from a long slumber.

Shannon Curry 46:03 Right. You're starting anew.

Lex Fridman 46:05 Starting anew.

Shannon Curry 46:06 Right.

Lex Fridman 46:06 So, and that-

Shannon Curry 46:06 And you want some mystery there.

Lex Fridman 46:08 Right. I think the mystery, uh, and like, you have to figure that out about each other.

Shannon Curry 46:11 Mm-hmm.

Lex Fridman 46:12 So, I'm not exactly sure that honesty is always-

Shannon Curry 46:15 It's different for everyone. And then also, is honesty harmful or helpful at certain points, too?

Lex Fridman 46:19 Yeah.

Shannon Curry 46:20 I- so you're talking about sort of, like, disclosing prior sexual history.

Lex Fridman 46:24 Yeah.

Shannon Curry 46:25 I thought you were going to go to, so if you've had an affair-

Lex Fridman 46:28 Oh.

Shannon Curry 46:28 ... do you hold, do you keep that under your hat?

Lex Fridman 46:30 Oh yeah, that's a really tough question.

Shannon Curry 46:32 Or are you obligated to disclose it?

Lex Fridman 46:35 That's a really, that's a very nice-

Shannon Curry 46:36 It is a very tough question. Very tough.

Lex Fridman 46:40 Well, what do you, what do you think is the right answer?

Shannon Curry 46:41 I have my own personal beliefs. I also then, like, I have my therapeutic beliefs. I think, frankly, and this is just me as a human being, not Shannon the psychologist.

Lex Fridman 46:51 Yeah.

Shannon Curry 46:52 Um, I believe that if you have fucked up, and, and I, again, I'm coming from a framework right now of monogamy. Um, if you are committed to somebody you love, and you have fucked up, you don't get to shed your guilt onto them. You need to carry that burden. It's not necessarily, uh, I think it's simplistic and unsophisticated to be like, "But then you're being dishonest."

Lex Fridman 47:16 Yeah.

Shannon Curry 47:16 I think it's actually selfish to unload it on somebody else and give them the trauma of imagining. What we do know about infidelity is that it can create an actual post-traumatic stress-like experience for the betrayed partner, where they are having intrusive thoughts about it. Um, those are unwanted thoughts, and it's uncontrolled. It comes in at multiple times a day. They'll have depressed mood. They'll have nightmares about it. Their entire sense of security, safety, self-esteem gets shattered-

Lex Fridman 47:47 Mm-hmm.

Shannon Curry 47:48 ... because of your actions. I think it's, uh, kind of, yeah, moralistic and naive to think, "Well, they deserve to know the truth," if you actually know the harm that that sort of betrayal does. Um, especially if you truly mean to stop it, right? So, if it is, if it was a one-and-done, or if it happened and you've stopped it and you do not intend to do it again, frankly, I think you live with that burden.

Lex Fridman 48:18 Yeah.

Shannon Curry 48:18 You live with that discomfort.

Lex Fridman 48:19 Thank you for saying that, because I, I, I totally agree, but it's, it's like logically, it's, doesn't quite make sense to give that advice, but psychologically makes complete sense, because you really are destroying another person's mind-

Shannon Curry 48:34 Mm-hmm.

Lex Fridman 48:34 ... uh, their faith in, in love, in relationships, their, their, their trust, everything. And then you're imprisoning them to be stuck with you for months or years, if you're trying to work through it, through that torture.

Shannon Curry 48:47 Mm-hmm.

Lex Fridman 48:47 So, you should be carrying that burden of working through it, I think.

Shannon Curry 48:50 Mm-hmm.

Lex Fridman 48:51 Wh- why, why do you say that that's your personal opinion versus a therapeutic? Like, what, therapeutic is more-

Shannon Curry 48:55 Well, I think everybody has different values.

Lex Fridman 48:56 Right.

Shannon Curry 48:57 So, I think that's a value-based cis- dec- decision, because to me, the hierarchy is kindness and do no, like, do no further harm-

Lex Fridman 49:05 Yeah.

Shannon Curry 49:06 ... um, over-... in that case, over truth.

Lex Fridman 49:11 Yeah.

Shannon Curry 49:11 Right? Um, whereas other people... Uh, you know, my husband for instance, he is like, "Truth above all else."

Lex Fridman 49:18 Yeah.

Shannon Curry 49:18 "You don't get to decide what I know," or, you know, "You don't get to decide whether or not I can handle that knowledge." So, he would even see my determination of, you know, that I should carry the burden sort of arrogant. Like, "Well, why don't you let your partner decide whether or not they..." You know, "Why do you get to choose?" I don't know.

Lex Fridman 49:36 Mm-hmm.

Shannon Curry 49:36 I, I think there's value to both arguments. I absolutely see his point.

Lex Fridman 49:40 It's fascinating. It's fascinating.

Shannon Curry 49:41 I absolutely see his point.

Lex Fridman 49:42 I, I-

Shannon Curry 49:42 And it... His, I think is like a very humble sort of option. Like, you don't get to choose what's better, you, you just need to give them the information and they can choose. Um, but I think... I don't know. I think it's kinder to hold... I think it's going to cause your conscience more discomfort to hold it, and I think there's sort of a cleansing we do when we share that information. I think in real life most people disclose it because they can't stand the secret anymore themselves. That, to me, is a selfish act.

Lex Fridman 50:11 I have, uh, unemployment applications and so on, and just with friends, would ask people, "What do you care more about, truth or loyalty?" Just to get to see-

Shannon Curry 50:21 Mm-hmm.

Lex Fridman 50:21 ... how they think about-

Shannon Curry 50:22 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 50:22 ... those different questions. And, uh, yeah. The... I was surprised how much variance there is on that.

Shannon Curry 50:30 And also conceptually, I bet... I... Conceptually, I don't think we actually know where we stand-

Lex Fridman 50:36 Yeah.

Shannon Curry 50:36 ... until we're faced with a situation like that.

Lex Fridman 50:38 Yeah, I think people, a lot of people, especially when they're younger, say, especially if they're kind of in-

Shannon Curry 50:44 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 50:44 ... intellectual-

Shannon Curry 50:45 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 50:45 They'll say, "Truth-"

Shannon Curry 50:46 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 50:46 "... above all else."

Shannon Curry 50:47 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 50:48 It's like, "All right."

Shannon Curry 50:49 You're exactly right.

Lex Fridman 50:50 All right. (laughs) Until-

Shannon Curry 50:52 (laughs) It's a platitude.

Lex Fridman 50:54 Until you get... I get... Until you get to hear a truth that truly breaks you-

Shannon Curry 50:57 Right.

Lex Fridman 50:57 ... or truly hurts you-

Shannon Curry 50:58 Right.

Lex Fridman 50:58 ... or causes suffering to you, and then you realize... Or a truth you give to somebody else will cause them suffering-

Shannon Curry 51:04 Right.

Lex Fridman 51:04 ... and they get to see that suffering-

Shannon Curry 51:06 Right.

Lex Fridman 51:06 ... destroy their life-

Shannon Curry 51:08 Mm-hmm.

Lex Fridman 51:08 ... and maybe your relationship-

Shannon Curry 51:09 Mm-hmm.

Lex Fridman 51:09 ... and so on. And then you're like, "Oh-"

Shannon Curry 51:10 Yeah, like should I sit my dad down right now and be like, "Dad, your dementia..." Like, "You have dementia again today. I'm gonna tell you-"

Lex Fridman 51:16 Yeah.

Shannon Curry 51:16 "... you have de-... Dad, you're not making sense." No. We're go... It's not going to be discussed, we're not going to make him comfortable. And, I mean, yeah, I think it... Truth can be a little bit of a platitude sometimes.

Lex Fridman 51:26 Some of those complexities are all the things involved in, in the challenges of what makes a relationship work, right?

Shannon Curry 51:32 Mm-hmm.

Lex Fridman 51:33 Uh, what do you think about open relationships in general? My worldview is such that I see the beauty and value in monogamous relationships-

Shannon Curry 51:42 Mm-hmm.

Lex Fridman 51:42 ... just for me.

Shannon Curry 51:43 Mm-hmm.

Lex Fridman 51:43 But I don't... I'm also open to the possibility of what works for other people. Have you done any kind of work with people in open relationships?

Shannon Curry 51:51 As clients or research?

Lex Fridman 51:53 As cli- as clients.

Shannon Curry 51:53 Oh, yeah. Yeah.

Lex Fridman 51:55 Is there some interesting differences in between, uh, open relationships and monogamous relationships?

Shannon Curry 52:00 You know, I think that may have been actually what was behind my question about, um, the satisfaction with them being on extremes. My hypothesis essentially was, is it because they... If you are really all in, you've worked out some of the kinks. I think I've seen, um, couples who are trying it out, right, for the first time, it tends to get a little haywire. Um, there's some excitement in the beginning, everybody's really excited about it. Um, I think the philosophy makes sense to a lot of people. Uh, the science of it makes sense to a lot of people, and... But we have been raised in a society that is pretty monogamous, so there isn't a lot of scaffolding around it, um, and, and there's a lot of con- inner conflict, I think, for people to go away from the values that they've been taught since they were kids. Um, and so jealousy arises a lot, and, uh, uh, and also I... It's very difficult to be, I think, as truthful and direct as you need to be, which you're describing in these polyamorous situations where everybody... It's laid out on the table. Um, so I think that's something that may be practiced. In my own work with clients, I've just noticed that, um, the c- the partners who are happier in these situations who I've worked with, um, they are more experienced at it.

Lex Fridman 53:22 Yeah.

Shannon Curry 53:23 They seem to have it down.

Lex Fridman 53:25 You testified in the Johnny Depp/Amber Heard trial, uh, based on your role as a clinical and forensic psychologist. It was watched by, I don't know how many people, maybe tens, maybe hundreds of millions of people. What was that experience like?

Shannon Curry 53:38 Thank God I didn't know that at the time.

Lex Fridman 53:41 (laughs)

Shannon Curry 53:41 Um...

Lex Fridman 53:41 Were you scared?

Shannon Curry 53:43 Oh, yeah.

Lex Fridman 53:44 Given the size of the platform-

Shannon Curry 53:45 Well-

Lex Fridman 53:45 ... and how many people were watching?

Shannon Curry 53:46 I'm not... Scared typically isn't the word when I testify. I'm always, um, excited and a little trepidatious before I testify, um, because the stakes are so high for everybody's life in that room. Um, this was different. I te- I... Anxiety isn't usually my brand, um-

Lex Fridman 54:06 (laughs)

Shannon Curry 54:07 ... and I just skipped anxiety that morning and went straight to terror.

Lex Fridman 54:11 Yeah. (laughs)

Shannon Curry 54:11 And I was mad. I was mad at the legal t-... I was funny... Like, I was having all these strong emotions. I couldn't find my bobby pins. I almost started crying because I couldn't find them. Uh, I was pretty unhinged that morning, and in a way that was really unfamiliar to me. Um, and it was right when I cried 'cause I couldn't find my bobby pins that I realized I needed to get a grip, and that I was a professional, and that my hair didn't matter, even though it ended up mattering. People noticed that it was crazy. Um, but I got a grip, and I went in, and I just did my job.

Lex Fridman 54:44 So, the terror, in the end, helped you focus and do your job well?

Shannon Curry 54:48 I think it does, and it's a little scary though, because I know what fear does cognitively, (laughs) and there is a sweet spot where you want some stress, and then you can be really acutely focused and attuned. But then, if you go over this threshold, you get sort of that frontal lobe shutdown where you're not thinking clearly, and everybody knows that experience from taking a really stressful test at some point, like in high school, and then they're going over the answers with the teacher in class later, and they're like, "How did I miss that question? I know that."... they, you're just in a different state. That's when you have too much stress. I think this day, I actually was bordering (laughs) on too much stress, if not clearly in that threshold. But, um, once you're sitting there for a little bit and you're asked the questions, you can kind of go into a routine of just wanting to talk about your work.

Lex Fridman 55:39 So, what is the work, the job of a forensic psychologist in that context?

Shannon Curry 55:46 In the Depp-Heard trial, I was, um, serving as an expert witness based on a psychological evaluation of one of the parties. Um, so forensic psychologists can serve, uh, the court or in legal matters in a number of ways. They can act as a confidential consultant for an attorney on a case, um, or they can e- even assist with jury selection. They might testify without doing an evaluation if they're just coming in to testify about sort of a subject matter. Um, and then they wouldn't be answering specific questions to either of the parties, but just talking more hypothetically about an, a field area. Um, in this case, because I was, um, ordered to conduct an evaluation, I evaluated one of the parties, and then you provide a report to the court, um, with your findings, and then you testify, um, as to what your findings were.

Lex Fridman 56:41 But from my perspective, just watching you, you seem to have held it together really well. So w- what do you attribute that to? So you said, like, it calmed down after you were able to a- ask the questions.

Shannon Curry 56:52 Mm-hmm.

Lex Fridman 56:52 So to me, if I were just to put myself in your s- place, it seems like the internet and the world would be very nitpicky about individual words.

Shannon Curry 57:03 Mm-hmm.

Lex Fridman 57:03 You're speaking from a place of, um, scientific rigor.

Shannon Curry 57:09 Mm-hmm.

Lex Fridman 57:10 And so you have to be very precise with your wording.

Shannon Curry 57:12 Very precise.

Lex Fridman 57:12 I would feel, like, so much pressure about th- each single word I choose.

Shannon Curry 57:17 Mm-hmm.

Lex Fridman 57:17 Did you feel that pressure that you had to be extremely precise with the words?

Shannon Curry 57:21 Always. The pressure is so high going in to testifying. I think that's where I feel the most pressure, is preparing and literally the moment until I start having to answer. And then I don't even have the luxury (laughs) of thinking about myself because it is so important that that answer be clarified and understandable to the court that that becomes my focus. And that's the godsend, is that I can stop thinking about how scary it all is because I need to pay attention to explaining something.

Lex Fridman 57:57 So, uh, if it's okay, I would love to talk to you-

Shannon Curry 57:59 Mm-hmm.

Lex Fridman 57:59 ... about the, the personality assessment test, 'cause I think it's actually super fascinating. Uh, but j-

Shannon Curry 58:04 Personality Assessment Inventory or the MMPI-2? You're probably referring to the MMPI-2, which is the one I talked a lot about.

Lex Fridman 58:10 MMPI-2, yeah.

Shannon Curry 58:12 Mm-hmm.

Lex Fridman 58:12 So maybe can you explain the MMPI-2? It seems fascinating.

Shannon Curry 58:17 It is.

Lex Fridman 58:17 It has, like, its output, the results. It has some basic scales, it has code types.

Shannon Curry 58:22 Mm-hmm.

Lex Fridman 58:23 And just reading through the different-

Shannon Curry 58:24 It's so complex. It's a thing of beauty.

Lex Fridman 58:26 Because the human mind is really complicated.

Shannon Curry 58:29 Mm-hmm.

Lex Fridman 58:29 Even, you know, depression, schizophrenia, uh, bipolar disor- like, all of these things are really complicated.

Shannon Curry 58:37 Mm-hmm.

Lex Fridman 58:38 There's like... We... Many of them we don't understand well. There seems to be a huge amount of variance. And yet you have to be able to stitch together a bunch of characteristics that gives you intuition about the u- the unique aspects of each person. You want to be able to have tests that get you closer to identifying the, the peculiar flaws or, uh, beauties of a particular mind. So th- this seems to do a good job. Just reading through the different-

Shannon Curry 59:07 Can I borrow that-

Lex Fridman 59:07 ... descriptions of the code tests

Narrator 59:08 (laughs)

Shannon Curry 59:08 ... to testify?

Lex Fridman 59:09 No, I don't know.

Shannon Curry 59:09 That was the best (laughs) -

Lex Fridman 59:10 No, I don't know.

Shannon Curry 59:10 ... description (laughs) .

Lex Fridman 59:11 I don't know. I'm being poetic, I apologize. But you have to-

Shannon Curry 59:13 No, that was a beautiful description.

Lex Fridman 59:15 You have to be, in part, poetic about the human mind. It's not, it's not math. It's, it's psychology. Okay.

Shannon Curry 59:19 Mm-hmm.

Lex Fridman 59:20 So what is the MMPI-2?

Shannon Curry 59:22 (laughs)

Lex Fridman 59:22 Like, what, what, what are we talking about here? Like, uh, it's a questionnaire?

Shannon Curry 59:28 Yes, that's a great start. So it, it, it is a questionnaire. Uh, yeah, 567 yes/no questions. I'm gonna tell you what's most beautiful about this test. So they use an empirical keying method to develop it. What that means is that they didn't have a bunch of psychologists get together and say, "Let's ask them... Um, let's make sure that we identify people who have somatic complaints or physical complaints by asking them questions about, like, numbness in their hands." Nothing like that. What they did instead was they threw, you know, like, take a thousand questions at a group of people who they know had a certain mental illness and a group of people who didn't have that mental illness, and then they looked for patterns in what the people with the mental illness endorsed as yes and no of those random questions.

Lex Fridman 1:00:20 Mm-hmm.

Shannon Curry 1:00:21 So it would be, for instance, "There's a bronze light fixture right there." One of the questions out of the thousand might be, "I like light fixtures that are bronze.

Lex Fridman 1:00:30 Mm-hmm.

Shannon Curry 1:00:30 True or false?" And they looked for correlations in the way people would answer to these completely innocuous, just boring questions, so there was no real way that a test-taker could foresee the point of answering.

Lex Fridman 1:00:46 Mm-hmm. And so because they can't foresee, it's very difficult to cheat to get to a conclusion they want.

Shannon Curry 1:00:53 Very difficult. And not only that, but you can imagine using that approach, you can then look for patterns for almost any type of response style, for any type of personality trait, any type of m- mental illness. You just get a comparison group, and then a group who's using that specific strategy or has that specific mental illness or has that personality trait, um, and you just look for patterns.

Lex Fridman 1:01:21 ... and there's a scale output of different kinds-

Shannon Curry 1:01:25 So, I think-

Lex Fridman 1:01:26 ... and there's code types.

Shannon Curry 1:01:27 Yep. So, we've got, you've got validity scales, and those are just fascinating, and often one of the most useful parts of this test in forensic contexts, because they show you how a person is approaching the test, how they're answering questions about themselves. So, for instance, you can see if they are tired. You can see if they're kind of resp- responding randomly. You can see if they are, in an unsophisticated manner, trying to make themselves look perfect, but not very nuanced. You can see if they may be deceiving themselves and truly believe that they are perfect, um, whereas others don't see it that way. You can see if they're exaggerating. You can see if they're exaggerating because they're truly, um, it's a cry for help. They are in extreme distress, but they feel as though they need to really punctuate it to get people to notice. Or you can see if they're exaggerating in a way that is, um, you know, driven for a specific outcome or gain. It's just fascinating, and it's the most well-developed assessment we have for a person's approach to answering questions about themselves.

Lex Fridman 1:02:38 So, it, so it gives you the context about-

Shannon Curry 1:02:39 How honest they're being.

Lex Fridman 1:02:40 ... the state of the person as they're answering them.

Shannon Curry 1:02:43 Yeah, yeah. Their honesty. Their, how forthcoming they're being, and how accurate they're being.

Lex Fridman 1:02:48 And then the, the result of the classification based on the test is, are these code types.

Shannon Curry 1:02:53 Right. Well, so you have these clinical scales as well. You have 10 clinical scales that look for different, um, kind of primary clinical pathology issues. This test doesn't tell you anything good about yourself. At best, it just tells you that you're not responding in a way that is, uh, dishonest, and that you are, uh, kind, not hugely problematic. But there's, you know, it's not looking for strength. So, you have these 10 clinical scales that look for variations above the mean of the population-

Lex Fridman 1:03:24 Mm-hmm.

Shannon Curry 1:03:24 ... um, in certain areas, anywhere from, you know, depressive symptoms, manic symptoms, physical complaints, anxiety, nervousness, aggression, social engagement, whole scope of human experience. And then there are much more nuanced scales, um, from those, so little sub-scales, and then the real power, though, of the MMPI-2 is in, as you said, these code types. And these code types are additional patterns that have been detected that really can, uh, be more defining of a personality. So, you look for peaks. There can be either two extreme peaks, or three, typically, um, that make a code type, and those peaks are higher scores-

Lex Fridman 1:04:08 Mm-hmm.

Shannon Curry 1:04:09 ... on these personality traits, and specific code types can give you a very nuanced picture of a person's general approach to life and, uh, their personal relationships. Just their personality.

Lex Fridman 1:04:20 So, you can build on top of those code types an understanding, yeah, of h- how that person's going to deal with different kinds of situation.

Shannon Curry 1:04:27 Mm-hmm.

Lex Fridman 1:04:27 And then there's, by the way, a lot of code types.

Shannon Curry 1:04:29 There are a lot of code types.

Lex Fridman 1:04:30 I was looking at them.

Shannon Curry 1:04:30 There are a lot.

Lex Fridman 1:04:31 They're pretty interesting.

Shannon Curry 1:04:31 It, it is truly fascinating.

Lex Fridman 1:04:32 I wanna take this test. As I, I was, I, I wanted to see which one I would-

Shannon Curry 1:04:36 I have given it to some people in my life. It, it's just phenomenal.

Lex Fridman 1:04:39 How hard is it on your side of the table to give the test?

Shannon Curry 1:04:42 Oh, it's easy. You just proctor it. You just make sure that somebody, there's no distraction, that they're well-rested, they are sitting there and they can just take it in front of you.

Lex Fridman 1:04:51 (laughs) So, I guess the question's, because the questions are well-designed, in that it's hard to mess with them.

Shannon Curry 1:04:57 Mm-hmm.

Lex Fridman 1:04:57 You just give the-

Shannon Curry 1:04:58 It's very hard to beat it. You just hand it to them.

Lex Fridman 1:05:01 And it's yes and no?

Shannon Curry 1:05:03 It's yes and no.

Lex Fridman 1:05:05 Okay.

Shannon Curry 1:05:05 Um, but I should also add to this that this test, as much as I love it, and, um, it is the most researched and widely used personality assessment in the world, um, it is not, in and of itself, definitive. So, you use it like you already have sort of a hypothesis, and you use this for clarification.

Lex Fridman 1:05:26 Yeah.

Shannon Curry 1:05:27 Um, and it has a ton of value for showing somebody's response or their approach, um, how forthcoming they're being. But other than that, you really need to consider it as a piece of the puzzle you had said stitched together earlier, and that was just one of those points you made that was perfect-

Lex Fridman 1:05:44 Mm-hmm.

Shannon Curry 1:05:44 ... for describing this.

Lex Fridman 1:05:46 There's probably no one perfect test, right? For personality?

Shannon Curry 1:05:50 No.

Lex Fridman 1:05:51 I wonder there, uh, especially with advancements of, um, AI, there could be more, uh, more and more sophisticated ways of measuring, of collecting data about your behavior-

Shannon Curry 1:06:04 Absolutely, there could be.

Lex Fridman 1:06:04 ... and being able to measure some kind of more productive kinda, especially not in forensic context, but more in a, uh, trying to figure out, like, how to improve your lifestyle-

Shannon Curry 1:06:15 Mm-hmm.

Lex Fridman 1:06:15 ... improve your relationships. All that kind of stuff. So, the, the result of the test with, um, with Amber Heard, if you can speak to the public stuff. Uh, you said that the results of Ms. Heard's evaluation supported two diagnoses, borderline personality disorder and histrionic personality disorder. Can you speak to each one of those? What are they? What are the basic characteristics of borderline personality disorder?

Shannon Curry 1:06:46 Sure. Well, so right now, our, the DSM-5, which is sort of the bible for mental disorders, it's what we go to, our diagnostic manual. It classifies personality disorders according to clusters, um, and cluster B is one that involves the emotionally erratic, interpersonally erratic, emotional disorders. Um, and those include histrionic personality disorder, borderline personality disorder, uh, narcissistic personality disorder, and antisocial personality disorder. Eventually, there's been some research on this, and, um, a lot of support for us eventually moving into a more spectrum-type approach to considering personality disorders, where you'd essentially, um, be looking at dysfunction in different domains of somebody's functioning-

Lex Fridman 1:07:37 Mm-hmm.

Shannon Curry 1:07:37 ... that has persisted over time.And again, the really important part is this, it seems to be a stable trait, part of their personality. That person... You know, it's in their interpersonal relationships, it's in how they handle their own life, their own functioning, their mood, and it's not just situation-based. It seems to be all areas. Um, I don't love the title histrionic personality disorder. I think its history is, um, it's pretty controversial, and there's some misogyny in it. Uh, but that all being said, as a servant to the court and somebody who is there to just provide the science as it exists today, my job is to relay, and in this specific case, I was ordered to provide my diagnostic impressions, um, a diagnosis, and I don't get to decide which diagnosis, uh, whether I like a certain diagnosis or not. Ultimately, if the criteria are met, that diagnosis is given. So, as we have it right now with the current personality disorder categories, histrionic personality disorder is probably the most controversial. Some people believe that it is narcissistic personality disorder lite, so sort of a- a less, um, obvious, a less, um, malicious version of narcissistic personality disorder. Um, and I think that will probably get sussed out w- if we do move to a more spectrum-based approach, 'cause then you would be describing sort of a personality disorder, and then you would add the traits to it, so... You know, with issues in interpersonal functioning and- and et cetera. So, you could be a little bit more, um, specific rather than having to just put somebody in a category.

Lex Fridman 1:09:20 So, that's where things are moving, you're saying, from a cluster-

Shannon Curry 1:09:22 That's where things are moving.

Lex Fridman 1:09:24 ... from a clusters-based view of NPD, antisocial personality disorder.

Shannon Curry 1:09:29 To more of a spectrum, with-

Lex Fridman 1:09:30 Uh-

Shannon Curry 1:09:31 ... personality dysfunction, and then you- you list the traits that are there, and I think that'll be more accurate, um, especially, there's so much overlap between these personality disorders right now, especially cus- cluster B. It is not uncommon for people to have two or three personality disorders, and to meet criteria for two or three at the same time. So, speaking about borderline personality disorder and histrionic personality disorder, um, borderline personality disorder can best be thought of as a disorder of instability and impulsiveness, uh, emotional s- instability, instability in a person's self-identity, sense of self, instability in a person's relationships, and then, um, underlying all of this is an intense fear of abandonment. Histrionic personality disorder is more of a disorder of, um, emotionality, dramatics, and attention-seeking. Um, this... Eh, you know, histrionic disorder typically is known for the dramatics, and people who are observing or interacting with somebody with this disorder may even feel themselves almost kind of wanting to turn away. There's a sense of play-acting as the person is speaking or engaging with you. Um, something just feels a little bit disingenuous.

Lex Fridman 1:10:49 Mm-hmm.

Shannon Curry 1:10:50 Uh, and a lot of attention-seeking. Similar to borderline personality disorder, you might see with histrionic personality disorder, um, attempts to manipulate. However, the motivation with histrionic personality disorder is that attention, whereas with borderline personality disorder, the underlying motivation for almost everything is to avoid abandonment. So, you'll see frantic attempts to avoid abandonment, um, frantic attempts to keep people close, um, and those frantic attempts can be really harmful to the person and to others.

Lex Fridman 1:11:20 To the person themselves?

Shannon Curry 1:11:21 Mm-hmm.

Lex Fridman 1:11:23 Huh. So, the fear of abandonment can result in the very thing you're afraid of.

Shannon Curry 1:11:29 Right. And- and I... There has been some research also to suggest that there... That borderline personality disorder has different types as well, um, a- and I think this is really important, because in my own work, I have encountered many people with borderline personality disorder in my own life, right? Um, and there are different types, right? I- I- I'm thinking specifically of a girl I really love who I've worked with for years who is so self-aware about this, and endearing, and, uh, she- she owns her shit. I can forgive almost anything if somebody just owns their shit. Um, she is... She might lose her temper. She might, um, lash out. She can be erratic, but she will come back and apologize, own it, and accept full responsibility, and not only that, but identify it and make changes. She doesn't want to be harmful. I adore that about her. I think it's an admirable quality more of us could have. Um, that's very different than... Eh, when you think about it, there are nine different symptoms, and you only need five to meet criteria.

Lex Fridman 1:12:43 Mm-hmm.

Shannon Curry 1:12:43 So, depending on which symptoms you have, you might be far more calculated, conniving, manipulative, or you may just be more the impulsive, kind of messy, emotionally erratic type. And so, there's some new research also coming out that's even suggested that among women, um, those that score higher in some of these more calculated traits of the disorder may actually be... It may be a certain presentation of female psychopathy.

Lex Fridman 1:13:12 Whew.

Shannon Curry 1:13:12 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 1:13:13 Are- are some of these personality disorders... Again, probably impossible question to answer, but... How much of it is nature? How much of it is nurture? Or how much of it is in the genetics, and you just can't do much with?

Shannon Curry 1:13:28 Mm-mm.

Lex Fridman 1:13:28 Uh, maybe another question, a different way to ask that is, how much can you help that?

Shannon Curry 1:13:33 Mm-hmm.

Lex Fridman 1:13:33 How- how- how much can you become better?

Shannon Curry 1:13:36 That is a tough question. So, there's been a ton of change in the way we've thought about the etiology of these personality disorders. Specific to borderline personality disorder, I think...... in general, the view is that most people believe that it was associated with neglect or trauma in childhood. While there is a correlation there, there's a correlation between that and many mental health issues, not just borderline personality disorder. We also... There is evidence to support a genetic basis for this personality disorder, and there are people who have borderline personality disorders that report no childhood trauma or difficulty. Um, and I've, and I have seen... uh, you know, sometimes things just happen. So, I think it's a mix. I think we need to think of it as biopsychosocial, which is generally the answer to most things when you're talking about how a mental health issue comes to be. Uh, I certainly think that in most cases, uh, and here's just me speaking personally again, I think in my own work, in most cases, what I see is that somebody may have some sort of predisposition, then they go through certain life events and, uh, learn patterns of behaving that may serve them well as a child in a dysfunctional situation, but end up being very problematic later on. Um, or they just have enough hardship that that gene, whatever it was lying dormant, that little borderline personality disorder gene expresses itself. And you'll see that with things like schizophrenia, depression, anxiety disorders. There tend to be certain ages where you'll just see, poof, that expression happen.

Lex Fridman 1:15:20 All right. For the record, it got cold in here, so we upgraded with a blanket.

Shannon Curry 1:15:27 (laughs)

Lex Fridman 1:15:28 (laughs) You look cozy.

Shannon Curry 1:15:28 (laughs)

Lex Fridman 1:15:29 Uh, j- just as a question for me, just observing the trial is interesting that, uh... First of all, it's a really raw and honest exploration of a intimate relationship between two people.

Shannon Curry 1:15:44 Oh, yeah.

Lex Fridman 1:15:45 It was interesting to watch. I suppose I haven't watched that kind of thing in... Made me think about what makes for a good relationship. The all the ma- all the many things we already talked about in this conversation, it was useful for that. Uh, but also there was raw recordings of two humans interaction. What do you think about that, that there's recordings? It's kind of interesting.

Shannon Curry 1:16:08 The act of recording your partner?

Lex Fridman 1:16:10 Yeah. I... And not, not the ethics of-

Shannon Curry 1:16:13 Mm-hmm.

Lex Fridman 1:16:13 ... that or so on, but the fact that you have this data. It made me wonder like if I recorded myself, how would I sound? Like, in my pri-

Shannon Curry 1:16:20 Well, you did record yourself.

Lex Fridman 1:16:21 No, but here with microphones.

Shannon Curry 1:16:23 Mm-hmm.

Lex Fridman 1:16:23 But when you're in private-

Shannon Curry 1:16:24 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 1:16:25 ... you, you wonder... Like, uh, I had a, a, a bit of a fight with a friend-

Shannon Curry 1:16:31 Mm-hmm.

Lex Fridman 1:16:32 ... uh, last week.

Shannon Curry 1:16:33 Mm-hmm.

Lex Fridman 1:16:34 And I wondered which one of us was the asshole.

Shannon Curry 1:16:37 (laughs)

Lex Fridman 1:16:37 I would love to hear the recording 'cause we were a little bit... I think we were a little bit rude to each other.

Shannon Curry 1:16:43 Mm-hmm.

Lex Fridman 1:16:43 And I wonder how it went wrong. What, what went wrong?

Shannon Curry 1:16:45 I love that you asked yourself that question. That's so useful.

Lex Fridman 1:16:49 We made up the next day, and we, I think, both agreed to not ever talk about it. (laughs)

Shannon Curry 1:16:54 (laughs)

Lex Fridman 1:16:54 But I want the data.

Shannon Curry 1:16:54 Just bury it deep?

Lex Fridman 1:16:55 Yeah.

Shannon Curry 1:16:56 You know, I record my couple sessions. And o- one of the primary purposes of that is so that, uh, after... if they start to get nasty with each other in the session, I can stop it, and I can say, "What was that?"

Lex Fridman 1:17:10 (laughs) Yeah.

Shannon Curry 1:17:10 Right? And most of the time, that, what you're describing is so useful because we don't see ourselves. We have no idea that we just came off as critical. We think we're being completely reasonable and thoughtful, you know, whenever somebody's sort of retelling an argument they got, and they said, "And then, you know, I was just caring and just asked. I mean, why... Is there a reason you did..." you know, something (laughs) like that. If they can actually see themselves, they realize, no, their jaw was clenched. Their voice was raised. They actually called a name. Sometimes they're shocked.

Lex Fridman 1:17:43 Uh, so j- just a quick just to linger on it, the... you labeled a- Amber Heard as a 3-6 code type, going back to our discussion, which can mean that, quote, "She's heavily concerned with image, prone to treating others with cruelty, unable to admit responsibility for wrongdoing, and prone to externalizing blame." And then I also went into the, the MMPI-2 list, 3-6 includes anxiety, tension, rigidity, fear of criticism, suppressed hostility merging in passive or episodic aggression, suspiciousness, egocentricity. What else? Projection. W- what can you say about that code that it's not captured in the different personality disorders? Um, what are we supposed to do with that from a forensic psychology perspective and what, what, what are we supposed to do with that in general? Forget the 3-6, in general, these kinds of code types, in that context, in the context of a trial?

Shannon Curry 1:18:43 If I'm understanding you correctly, it's sort of what's the point of these code types.

Lex Fridman 1:18:47 Yeah.

Shannon Curry 1:18:48 Um-

Lex Fridman 1:18:48 Thank you for asking the question better. (laughs)

Shannon Curry 1:18:52 (laughs) But-

Lex Fridman 1:18:52 I don't know what I'm doing. Also, yeah, I just, I just actually honestly really MMPI-2 fascinating.

Shannon Curry 1:18:57 I love that you do.

Lex Fridman 1:18:59 Yeah.

Shannon Curry 1:18:59 I love that you get it because I just... To me, it's such a, uh, it's almost unbelievable that humans created it.

Lex Fridman 1:19:06 Mm-hmm.

Shannon Curry 1:19:07 Um, but I think that goes back to that empirical key method of creating something, um, that el- enabled it to be as robust as it is and something that is very difficult to beat, if not impossible. Um, but the code types really... So, it depends on... In any forensic case, what really matters is the legal, psycholegal question. So, what is the legal question? And then what is the psychologist's responsibility in assisting with whatever question they're being asked? And there are some questions we can't answer, some that we can. Um, you don't always need to provide a diagnosis when you're asked to provide a report. It depends on the jurisdiction. It depends on the statute. Some jurisdictions actually require a diagnosis. In this case, I was asked to provide a diagnosis.So, when I'm considering a diagnosis, you're integrating multiple different sources of information. You're integrating an examinee's self-report, you are adding, um, collateral data, usually. I wasn't, um, able to obtain collateral interviews in this case, um, and that was a decision of the court. They said, "No collateral interviews." Uh, but typically that would be something that you would add. You're looking at records ideally from birth up until the date that the alleged injury occurred, um, and I'm speaking now specifically to a personal injury evaluation or something where somebody is claiming that they were harmed psychologically. Um, but you want as many records as possible to show how a person functioned before that event occurred, and how they functioned after, and you want it to show financial functioning, physical functioning, academic functioning. Basically, where is there evidence that something in their life changed? Um, where is there evidence that harm occurred other than from what they're telling you? And, uh, e- in addition to all of those records that you're reviewing, in addition to their self-report, then you're also going to give some of these tests, like the MMPI. So, the code types are really that, that strength of the MMPI-2, it gives you really nuanced information about a person's personality. Now, again, you're not gonna use the MMPI-2, or any other test by itself to diagnose someone or, you know, decide that the person is telling the truth, not telling the truth. It is just another piece of data, and when it's working the way it's supposed to, it lines up really nicely with all of the other data you're getting, including what you've observed from the person during your interview with them, the information they're giving you, or inconsistencies with the information they're giving you, the consistency or inconsistency of their self-report from the records, what the records themselves say, etc., etc.

Lex Fridman 1:21:52 So, it's adding... It's helping you clarify and clarify and clarify the picture-

Shannon Curry 1:21:56 Yep.

Lex Fridman 1:21:56 ... you have of the person.

Shannon Curry 1:21:57 Just dialing it down more and more. You're just making sure that it is as accurate as possible.

Lex Fridman 1:22:02 Okay, so given how huge this trial was, given how eloquent you were, you were... I know you don't think of it that way-

Shannon Curry 1:22:09 (laughing)

Lex Fridman 1:22:09 ... but from a public perspective, you were, like, the star because of how well you did.

Shannon Curry 1:22:16 That's insane.

Lex Fridman 1:22:16 It's, uh, I mean, you know, uh...

Shannon Curry 1:22:18 I'm pretty sure Camille's the star.

Lex Fridman 1:22:20 Camille is also incredible. I've gotten a chance to interact with her. She's somebody that, uh, really inspires me by how good she is at her job, how much she loves her job, and how much the fame, the money, whatever, has not affected the basic core integrity of who she is-

Shannon Curry 1:22:38 Right.

Lex Fridman 1:22:39 ... uh, as a human being, so she's also, uh, she's also incredible. Okay, uh, how... W- what's the, what's the takeaway for you personally from the trial? Uh, how has it made you a better person? How has it changed in, changed or solidified who you are as a psychologist, as a forensic psychologist, clinical psychologist and so on?

Shannon Curry 1:23:01 Wow. Uh, I mean, a lot happened in my life around that trial, leading up to the trial, after the trial, um... So, let's tackle forensic psychologist first.

Lex Fridman 1:23:13 Sure.

Shannon Curry 1:23:13 Okay. So, in terms of forensic psychology, um, I am grateful to that trial for really strengthening my abilities. Um, the stakes were so high that I took... You know, I was retained about two years prior to the trial, so I really delved deep into the academic side of forensic psychology and making sure that, um, I was adhering as closely as possible to standard practices, best practice recommendations for this specific type of an examination. It was intellectually awesome and challenging. I felt like my brain was on fire for a full year leading up to the trial, and that can be really, really fun. It was just challenging, but I am really proud of