Simon Sinek: Leadership, Hard Work, Optimism and the Infinite Game | Lex Fridman Podcast #82

1. 0:00 – 3:50

   Introduction

   1. LFLex Fridman0:00

      The following is a conversation with Simon Sinek, author of several books, including Start With Why, Leaders Eat Last, and his latest, The Infinite Game. He's one of the best communicators of what it takes to be a good leader, to inspire, to build businesses that solve big, difficult challenges. This is the Artificial Intelligence Podcast. If you enjoy it, subscribe on YouTube, review it with five stars on Apple Podcasts, support it on Patreon, or simply connect with me on Twitter @LexFridman, spelled F-R-I-D-M-A-N. As usual, I'll do one or two minutes of ads now, and never any ads in the middle that can break the flow of the conversation. I hope that works for you and doesn't hurt the listening experience. Quick summary of the ads. Two sponsors: Cash App and MasterClass. Please consider supporting the podcast by downloading Cash App and using code LEXPODCAST and signing up to MasterClass at masterclass.com/lex. This show is presented by Cash App, the number one finance app in the App Store. When you get it, use code LEXPODCAST. Cash App lets you send money to friends, buy Bitcoin, and invest in the stock market with as little as $1. Since Cash App allows you to buy Bitcoin, let me mention that cryptocurrency in the context of the history of money is fascinating. I recommend A Cent of Money as a great book on this history. Debits and credits on ledgers started around 30,000 years ago, the U.S. dollar, created over 200 years ago, and Bitcoin, the first decentralized cryptocurrency, released just over 10 years ago. So given that history, cryptocurrency still very much in its early days of development, but is still aiming to, and just might, redefine the nature of money. So again, you get Cash App from the App Store or Google Play and use the code LEXPODCAST, you get $10 and Cash App will also donate $10 to FIRST, an organization that is helping to advance robotics and STEM education for young people around the world. This show is sponsored by MasterClass. Sign up at masterclass.com/lex to get a discount and to support this podcast. When I first heard about MasterClass, I honestly thought it was too good to be true. For $180 a year, you get an all-access pass to watch courses from experts at the top of their field. To list some of my favorites: Chris Hadfield on space exploration; Neil deGrasse Tyson on scientific thinking and communication; Will Wright, the creator of SimCity and Sims, on game design, I love that game; (laughs) Jane Goodall on conservation; Carlos Santana, one of my favorite guitarists, on guitar; Garry Kasparov on chess. Obviously, I'm Russian, I love Garry. (laughs) Daniel Negreanu on poker, one of my favorite poker players. Also Phil Ivey is, uh, gives a course as well, and many, many more. Chris Hadfield explaining how rockets work and the experience of being launched into space alone is worth the money. By way of advice from me, the key is not to be overwhelmed by the abundance of choice. Pick three courses you want to complete, watch each all the way through from start to finish. It's not that long, but it's an experience that will stick with you for a long time, I promise. It's easily worth the money. You can watch it on basically any device. Once again, sign up at masterclass.com/lex to get a discount and to support this podcast. And now here's my conversation with Simon Sinek.

2. 3:50 – 10:13

   Meaning of life as an infinite game

   1. LFLex Fridman3:50

      In The Infinite Game, your most recent book, you describe the finite game and the infinite game. So from my perspective o- of artificial intelligence and, uh, game theory in general, I'm a huge fan of. Finite games, from the broad philosophical sense, is something that, in the robotics, artificial intelligence space, we know how to deal with. And then you describe the infinite game, which has no exact static rules, has no well-defined static objective, has n- the, the players are known, unknown, they change, there's a dynamic element. So this is something that applies to business, politics, life itself. So can you try to articulate the objective function here of the infinite game, or in the, in the cliche broad philosophical sense, what is the meaning of life?

   2. SSSimon Sinek4:42

      (laughs) Go, go for the, start with the soft balls. (laughs)

   3. LFLex Fridman4:45

      Yep, easy question first.

   4. SSSimon Sinek4:46

      Um, so James Carse, uh, was the philosopher who originally articulated this concept of finite and infinite games. And, um, when I learned about it, it really challenged my view of how the world works, right? Because I think we all think about winning and being the best and being number one, but if you think about it, uh, only in a finite game can that exist, a game that has fixed rules, agreed-upon objectives, and known players, like football or baseball. There's always a beginning, middle, and end, and if there's a winner, there has to be a loser. Infinite games, as Carse descri- uh, describes them, uh, as you said, uh, have known and unknown players, which means anyone can join. It has, uh, changeable rules, which means you can play however you want. And the objective is to perpetuate the game, stay in the game as long as possible. Um, in other words, there's no such thing as being number one or winning in a game that has no finish line. Um, and what I learned is that when we try to win in a game that has no finish line, we try to be number... we try to be the best in a game that has no agreed-upon objectives or agreed-upon metrics or time frames, um, there's a few consistent and predictable outcomes: the decline of trust, the decline, the decline of cooperation, the decline of innovation. Um, and I find this fascinating, because so many of the ways that we run most organizations is with a finite mindset.

   5. LFLex Fridman6:04

      So trying to reduce the beautiful complex thing that is life or what, uh, politics or business into something very narrow. And in that process, uh, the reductionist process, you lose something fundamental that makes the whole thing work in the long term. So returning, I'm not gonna let you off the hook easy, what is the, uh, meaning of life? So what is the objective function that is-

   6. SSSimon Sinek6:29

      Yeah.

   7. LFLex Fridman6:29

      ... worthwhile to pursue?

   8. SSSimon Sinek6:31

      Well, uh, if you think about our tombstones, right, they have the date we were born and the date we died. But really it's what we do with the gap in between. There's a poem called The Dash. You know, it's the dash that matters. It's what we do between the time we're born and the time we die that gives our life meaning. And if we live our lives with a finite mindset, which means to accumulate more power or money than anybody else, to outdo everyone else, to be number one, to be the best, we don't take any of us with us. We don't take any of it with us. We just die. Um, the people who get remembered, uh, the way we want to be remembered is how, what kind of people we were, right? Devoted mother, loving father, what kind of person we were to other people. Jack Welch just died recently, and The Washington Post, when it, when it wrote the headline for his, for his obit, um, it wrote, "He pleased Wall Street and distressed employees."

   9. LFLex Fridman7:23

      (laughs)

   10. SSSimon Sinek7:23

       And that's his legacy. Uh, a finite player who was obsessed with winning-

   11. LFLex Fridman7:27

       Yes.

   12. SSSimon Sinek7:27

       ... who leaves behind a legacy of short-term gains for a few and distress for many. That's his legacy. And every single one of us gets the choice of the kind of legacy we want to have. Um, do we want to be remembered for our contributions or our dis- or our detractions? To live with a finite mindset, to, to live a career with a finite mindset, to be number one, be the best, be the most famous, uh, y- y- y- y- y- you live a life like Jack Welch, you know? Um, to live a life of service, to, to see those around us rise, to contribute to our communities, to our organizations, to leave them in better shape than we found them, that's, that's the kind of legacy most of us would like to have.

   13. LFLex Fridman8:07

       So day-to-day, when you think about what is the, the fundamental (sighs) goals, dreams, motivations of an infinite game of, of, of seeing your life, your career as an infinite game, what does that, what does that look like? I mean, I guess I'm sort of trying to stick on this personal ego, personal drive-

   14. SSSimon Sinek8:32

       Yeah.

   15. LFLex Fridman8:32

       ... the thing that-

   16. SSSimon Sinek8:32

       Yeah.

   17. LFLex Fridman8:32

       ... the fire, the reason we want to wake up in the morning-

   18. SSSimon Sinek8:36

       Yeah.

   19. LFLex Fridman8:36

       ... and the reason we can't go to bed because we're so excited.

   20. SSSimon Sinek8:38

       Yeah.

   21. LFLex Fridman8:38

       What is that?

   22. SSSimon Sinek8:39

       So for me, it's about having a just cause. It's about a vision that's bigger than me, um, that my work gets to contribute to something larger than myself, you know? That's what drives me every day. Uh, I wake up every morning with a, with a vision of a world that does not yet exist, a world in which the vast majority of people wake up every single morning inspired, feel safe at work, and return home fulfilled at the end of the day. It is not the world we live in. And so that we still have work to do is the thing that drives me, you know? I know what, I know what my underlying values are, you know? I, I wake up to inspire people to do the things that inspire them. And these are the things that, these are the things that I... these are my go-tos, my touch points, um, that inspire me to, to keep working, you know? I, I think of a career like an iceberg, you know? If you have a vision for something, uh, y- you're the only one who can see the iceberg underneath the ocean. Uh, but if you start working at it, a little bit shows up, and now a few other people can see what you imagine and be like, "Oh, right, yeah, no, I want to help build that as well." And if you have a lot of success, then you have a lot of iceberg, and people can see this huge iceberg and they say, "You've accomplished so much." But, but what I s- see is all the work still yet to be done.

   23. LFLex Fridman9:46

       (laughs)

   24. SSSimon Sinek9:47

       You know, I still see the huge iceberg underneath the ocean.

   25. LFLex Fridman9:49

       And so the growth, you, you talk about momentum, so the incremental revealing of the iceberg is what drives you?

   26. SSSimon Sinek9:58

       Well, it necessarily is incremental. What drives me is that, is the realization or is r- is re- is realizing the iceberg, bringing more of the iceberg from the unknown to the known, bringing more of the vision from the imagination to reality.

   27. LFLex Fridman10:12

       And you have this

3. 10:13 – 13:30

   Optimism

   1. LFLex Fridman10:13

      fundamental vision of optimism. You call-

   2. SSSimon Sinek10:15

      Mm-hmm.

   3. LFLex Fridman10:15

      ... yourself an optimist. Uh, I mean, in this world, I have a sort of... I see myself, uh, uh, a little bit as the main character from The Idiot by Dostoevsky, who was also kind of seen by society as a fool because he was optimistic.

   4. SSSimon Sinek10:31

      Mm-hmm.

   5. LFLex Fridman10:32

      Uh, so one, can you maybe articulate where that sense of optimism comes from? And maybe also try to articulate your vision of the future where people are inspired, where optimism drives us.

   6. SSSimon Sinek10:45

      Yeah.

   7. LFLex Fridman10:45

      It's, it's easy to forget that when you look at social media and so on, with where toxicity and negativity can often get more likes-

   8. SSSimon Sinek10:52

      Yeah.

   9. LFLex Fridman10:53

      ... that optimism has a sort of a beauty to it. And I, I do hope it's out there. So what... Can you try to articulate that vision?

   10. SSSimon Sinek11:00

       Yeah, yeah. So I mean, for me, optimism and being an optimist is, is just seeing the silver lining in every cloud, you know? Even in tragedy, it brings people together. And the question is, can we see that? Can you see, can you see the beauty that is in everything? Uh, uh, I don't think optimism is foolishness. Um, I don't think optimism is blindness. Um, though it probably involves some naivete, um, the belief that things will get better, uh, the belief that, that we tend towards the good, um, even in times of struggle or bad. Um, you know, you can't sustain war but you can sustain peace. You know, I think, I think things that are, are stable or more sustainable, things that are, are optimistic or more sustainable than things that are, you know, chaotic. Um-

   11. LFLex Fridman11:53

       So you see people as fundamentally good? I mean, uh, some people may disagree that you can't sus- you can sustain peace and you can't sustain war.

   12. SSSimon Sinek12:00

       I mean, you don't have to... you... y- I think war is costly, you know? It involves life and money, uh, and peace does not involve those things. It requires work. I'm not saying it doesn't require work, but it, it doesn't drain resources, I think, the same way that war does.

   13. LFLex Fridman12:16

       You know, s- th- the people that would say that we will always have war, and I just talked to the historian of Stalin, is, you know, s- would say that conflict and the desire for power in conflict is, is central to human nature. It's just-

   14. SSSimon Sinek12:31

       I, I, I concur. (laughs)

   15. LFLex Fridman12:32

       (laughs) But something in your words also, perhaps it's the naive aspect that I also share-

   16. SSSimon Sinek12:38

       Yeah.

   17. LFLex Fridman12:38

       ... is that you have an optimism that people are fundamentally good and that-

   18. SSSimon Sinek12:40

       I'm i- I'm an idealist, you know? I, and I think idealism is good. I'm not, I'm not a fool to believe that the ideals that I imagine can come true. Uh, of course there'll never be world peace, but shouldn't we die trying?

   19. LFLex Fridman12:52

       (laughs)

   20. SSSimon Sinek12:52

       You know, I think that's the whole point. That's the point of vision. Vision should be idealistic and it should be, uh, all, for all practical purposes, impossible. Um, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't try, and it's the m- it's the milestones that we, we, we reach that take us closer to that ideal that make us feel that our life and our work have meaning and we're contributing to something bigger than ourselves. You know, we, we... Just because it's impossible doesn't mean we shouldn't try. Um, as I said, we're still moving the ball down the field. We're still making progress. Things are still getting better even if we never get to that, that ideal state. So, I think idealism is a, is a good thing. Um...

4. 13:30 – 17:52

   Mortality

   1. SSSimon Sinek13:31

   2. LFLex Fridman13:31

      You know, in the word "infinite game" th- ... one of the beautiful and tragic aspects of l- life, human life at least, at least from the biological perspective, is that it ends. So, uh, sadly it's-

   3. SSSimon Sinek13:44

      For some people, yeah.

   4. LFLex Fridman13:46

      ... fin- finite.

   5. SSSimon Sinek13:47

      (laughs)

   6. LFLex Fridman13:47

      It's, uh, it's tragic to some people or is it ends, it ends-

   7. SSSimon Sinek13:50

      I think some people believe that it, that it ends on the day you die and some people think it continues on.

   8. LFLex Fridman13:54

      There's w- and there's a lot of different ways to think what continues on-

   9. SSSimon Sinek13:57

      Right.

   10. LFLex Fridman13:57

       ... even looks like. But let me, uh, drag it back to the personal-

   11. SSSimon Sinek14:01

       Sure.

   12. LFLex Fridman14:02

       ... which is, uh, how do you y- think about your own mortality? Are you afraid of death? How do you think about your own death?

   13. SSSimon Sinek14:10

       I definitely haven't accomplished everything I want to contribute to. Um, I, I would like more time in, on this earth to, to keep working towards that vision.

   14. LFLex Fridman14:20

       Do you think about the fact that it ends for you? Are you cognizant of, of, of your own mortality?

   15. SSSimon Sinek14:24

       Of course I'm cognizant of it. I mean, aren't we all? Uh, I, I don't dwell on it. Uh, I'm aware of it. I know that my life is finite and I know that I have a certain amount of time left on this planet and I'd like to make that time be valuable.

   16. LFLex Fridman14:40

       You know, some people would think that, uh, ideas kind of allow you to have a, a certain kind of immortality.

   17. SSSimon Sinek14:46

       Yeah.

   18. LFLex Fridman14:49

       (sighs) D- w- d- d- (laughs) maybe to linger on this kinda question, so fi- first to push back on the you said that everyone was cognizant of their mortality, there's a guy named Ernest Becker who would disagree that he'd basically said that most of h- human cognition is, um, is created by us trying to create an illusion and try to hide the fact th- from ourselves the fact that we're gonna die, to try to, uh, think that we're... it's all gonna go on forever. Uh-

   19. SSSimon Sinek15:17

       But the fact that we know that it doesn't.

   20. LFLex Fridman15:19

       Yes, but this mix of denial, I mean, the... I think the book's called Denial of Death.

   21. SSSimon Sinek15:23

       Yeah. Yeah.

   22. LFLex Fridman15:24

       It's, (laughs) it's this constant denial that we're running away from. And, and that's, um... In, in fact, some would argue that the inspiration, the incredible ideas you've put out there, your TED talk has been seen by millions and millions of people, right? Is just you trying to desperately fight the fact that you are biologically mortal and to c- uh, the... Your creative genius comes from the fact that you're trying to create ideas that live on long past you. Uh- (laughs)

   23. SSSimon Sinek15:52

       Well, that's very nice of you. I mean, I, I, I would like my ideas to live on beyond me because I think that is a good test that those ideas have value, have value in the lives of others. I think that's a, a good test, that, that others would continue to s- talk about or share the ideas long after I'm gone, I think is perhaps the greatest compliment one can get for one's own work. Uh, that's very... But I don't think it's my awareness of my mortality that drives me to do it, it's my desire to contribute that drives me to do it.

   24. LFLex Fridman16:30

       (sighs) It's the optimi- it's the optimist vision. It's, it's the, um, the pleasure and the fulfillment you get from inspiring others. It's as, as pure as that. Is, uh... Let me ask... Listen, I'm rushing. I'm trying to get you to-

   25. SSSimon Sinek16:43

       You're good. You're good. I'm enjoying it.

   26. LFLex Fridman16:44

       ... g- get you into these dark areas.

   27. SSSimon Sinek16:46

       You're good. I'm enjoying it.

   28. LFLex Fridman16:47

       Is the ego tied up into it somehow? So, your name is extremely well-known. If your name wasn't attached to it, do you think you would act differently? If-

   29. SSSimon Sinek16:58

       I, I, I mean, for years I hated that my name was attached to it. You know, I had a rule for years that I wouldn't have my, my, my face on the cover, the front page of the website, you know? Uh, I had a fight with the publisher because I, I didn't want my name big on the book. I wanted it tiny on the book 'cause I kept telling them, "It's not about me, it's about the ideas." They wanted to put my name at the top of my book-

   30. LFLex Fridman17:19

       Yeah.
5. 17:52 – 26:38

   Hard work

   1. LFLex Fridman17:53

      I'm not sure how to phrase this, but, uh, there's a large part of the culture right now that emphasizes all the things that nobody disagrees with, which is health, sleep, diet, relaxation, meditation, vacation-

   2. SSSimon Sinek18:08

      (laughs) That's true.

   3. LFLex Fridman18:09

      ... are really important and there's no... you know, it's like you can't really argue against that. In fact, people-

   4. SSSimon Sinek18:14

      Less sleep.

   5. LFLex Fridman18:16

      Less-

   6. SSSimon Sinek18:16

      I'm joking.

   7. LFLex Fridman18:17

      Yes. Well, th- that's the thing. I often, I often speak to the fact that w-... passion and love for your do- what you're doing, and the two words hard work, especially in the engineering fields, are more important than... are more important to prioritize than sleep. Even though sleep is really important, your mind should be obsessed with the hard work, with the passion, and so on. And then I get some pushback, of course, from people w- what do you make sense of that? Is that just me, the- the crazy Russian engineer, really pushing hard work?

   8. SSSimon Sinek18:50

      Probably. Uh, no-

   9. LFLex Fridman18:52

      What do- yeah.

   10. SSSimon Sinek18:52

       I think tha- that's a short-term strategy. I think if you sacrifice your health f- for the work, at some point, it catches up with you. And at some point, it's like, it's like going, going, going and you get sick. Your body will shut down for you if you refuse to- to take care of yourself, you know? It's y- you get sick. It's what happens. Sometimes t- you know, more severe illness than something that just slows you down. So, I think, I think taking, like getting sleep, I mean, there have been studies on this that, you know, uh, ex- executives, for example, who- who get a full night's sleep and stop at unreasonable hour actually accomplish more, uh, are more productive than people who work and burn the midnight oil, because their brains are working better, because they're well-rested. So, you know, working hard, yes, but why not work smart? Um, uh, I think that, um, giving our minds and our bodies rest makes us more efficient. Um, I think just driving, driving, driving, driving is- is a short-term, it's a short-term strategy.

   11. LFLex Fridman19:52

       So, but to push back on that a little bit. So, the- the annoying thing is you're like 100% right-

   12. SSSimon Sinek19:57

       (laughs)

   13. LFLex Fridman19:57

       ... in terms of science, right? But the thing is, it's bec- because you're 100% right, that weak part of your mind uses that fact to convince you, like what, so, you know, I- I get all kinds of ex- my mind comes up with all kinds of excuses to try to convince me that I shouldn't be doing what I'm doing.

   14. SSSimon Sinek20:16

       To rationalize you.

   15. LFLex Fridman20:16

       To rationalize.

   16. SSSimon Sinek20:18

       Sure.

   17. LFLex Fridman20:18

       And so, wha- what I have a sense wha- you, I think what you said about executives and leaders is absolutely right. But there's the early days, the early days of madness and passion.

   18. SSSimon Sinek20:29

       For sure.

   19. LFLex Fridman20:29

       Then I feel like emphasizing sleep-

   20. SSSimon Sinek20:33

       As-

   21. LFLex Fridman20:33

       ... thinking about s- sleep as giving yourself a way out from the fact that those early days, especially, uh, can be suffering.

   22. SSSimon Sinek20:42

       As long, uh, it's not sustainable, you know?

   23. LFLex Fridman20:46

       Right.

   24. SSSimon Sinek20:46

       It's not sustainable. Sure, if you're investing all that energy in something at the beginning to get it up and running, then at some point, you're gonna have to slow down, or your body will slow you down for you. Like, you- you can choose or your body can choose. I mean-

   25. LFLex Fridman21:02

       So, okay, so you don't think, uh, from my perspective, it feels like people have gotten a little bit soft. But you're saying no-

   26. SSSimon Sinek21:08

       No, I- I think th- I think that there seems evidence that- that- that working harder and later have taken a back seat in, uh, uh... (sighs) I- I think we have to be careful with broad generalizations. But- but I think in, if you go into the workplace, there are people who would complain that- that more people now than before, you know, look at their watches and say, "Oh, it's five o'clock, goodbye." Right?

   27. LFLex Fridman21:36

       Right.

   28. SSSimon Sinek21:37

       Now, is that a problem with the people? You're saying it's the people giving themselves excuses and people who don't work hard, or is it the organizations aren't giving them something to believe in, something to be passionate about? We can't manufacture passion. You can't just tell someone, "Be passionate." You know, that's not how it works. Passion's an output, not an input. Uh, uh, like if I believe in something and I want to contribute all that energy to do it, we call that passion. You know, working hard for something we love is passion. Working hard for something we don't care about is called stress. But we're working hard either way. Um, so I think- I think the organizations bear some accountability, and our leaders bear some accountability, which is, if they're not offering a sense of purpose, if they're not offering us a sense of cause, if they're not telling us that our work is worth more than simply the money it makes, then yeah, I'm gonna come at five o'clock because I don't really care about making you money. Remember, we live in a world right now where a lot of people, rather a few people, are getting rich on the hard work of others. And so, I think when- when- when people look up and say, "Well, why would I do that? I- I'll just..." If you're not gonna look after me, and then you're gonna lay me off at the end of the year because you missed your arbitrary projections, you know, you're gonna lay me off because you missed your arbitrary projections, then why would I bit- offer my hard work and loyalty to you? So, I think- I don't think we can immediately blame people for going soft. I think we can blame leaders for, uh, their inability or failure to offer their people something bigger than- than making a product or making money.

   29. LFLex Fridman23:02

       Yeah, that's, so that- that's brilliant. And in Start With Why, Leaders Eat Last, your books, y- you kind of, you ba- you basically talk about what it, wh- what it takes to be a good leader. And so some of the blame should go on the leader, but how much of it is on finding your passion? How much is it on the individual?

   30. SSSimon Sinek23:21

       Mm-hmm.
6. 26:38 – 37:48

   Elon Musk, Steve Jobs, and leadership

   1. SSSimon Sinek26:38

   2. LFLex Fridman26:38

      So one of the, I guess, uh, toxicity on my part was a really bad word to use. But if we talk about what makes a good leader, and just look at an example, um, in particular, uh, is looking at Elon Musk.

   3. SSSimon Sinek26:51

      Mm-hmm.

   4. LFLex Fridman26:51

      He's known to put, push people to their limits-

   5. SSSimon Sinek26:54

      Mm-hmm.

   6. LFLex Fridman26:54

      ... i- i- in a way that I think really (laughs) challenges people in a way they've never been challenged before-

   7. SSSimon Sinek27:02

      Yeah.

   8. LFLex Fridman27:03

      ... to do the impossible.

   9. SSSimon Sinek27:04

      Sure.

   10. LFLex Fridman27:04

       But it can really break people.

   11. SSSimon Sinek27:07

       And, and Jobs was hard, and, and Amazon is hard. And you know, but the thing that's important is none of them lie about it, you know. The th- you know, people ask me about Amazon all the time. Like, Jeff Bezos never lied about it, you know. Even the ones who like Amazon don't last more than a couple years before they burn out. Um, but when we're honest about the culture, then it gives people the opportunity who like to work in that kind of culture to choose to work in that kind of culture, as opposed to pretending and saying, "Oh, no, this is all, you know, it's, uh, it's all lovey-lovey here," and then you show up and it's, it's the furthest thing from it. So, I mean, y- uh, y- you know, I think the, the reputations are putting a lot of pressure on people to... You know, Jobs, Jobs was not a, an easy man to work for. Um, he, he pushed people, but everyone who worked there was given the space to create and do things that they would not have been able to do anywhere else, and work at a level that they didn't work anywhere else. And, and Jobs didn't have all the answers. I mean, he pushed his people to, uh, to come up with answers. He, he, he, he wasn't just looking for people to execute his ideas. Um, uh, and, and people did. People accomplished more than they thought they were capable of, which is wonderful.

   12. LFLex Fridman28:12

       How do you... Y- y- you're talking about the infinite game, and not thinking about too short term, and yet you see some of the most brilliant people in the world being pushed by Elon Musk to accomplish some of the most incredible things.

   13. SSSimon Sinek28:26

       Mm-hmm.

   14. LFLex Fridman28:27

       When we were talking about autopilot, when we're talking about some of the hardware engineering, uh, they, they do some of the best work of their life-

   15. SSSimon Sinek28:34

       Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

   16. LFLex Fridman28:35

       ... and then leave.

   17. SSSimon Sinek28:36

       Mm-hmm.

   18. LFLex Fridman28:37

       How do you balance that in terms of what it takes to be a good leader, what it takes to accomplish great things in your life?

   19. SSSimon Sinek28:44

       Yeah. So, I think there's a difference between, uh, someone who can get a lot about of, get a lot out of people in the short term, and building an organization that can sustain beyond any individual. Uh, there's a difference.

   20. LFLex Fridman28:58

       When you say beyond any individual, you mean beyond, beyond like if the leader dies-

   21. SSSimon Sinek29:03

       Correct.

   22. LFLex Fridman29:03

       ... they, they care

   23. SSSimon Sinek29:03

       Like could, could Tesla continue to do what it's doing without Elon Musk? You know, could... (coughs)

   24. LFLex Fridman29:08

       And, and you're, you're perhaps implying, which is a very interesting question, that he cannot?

   25. SSSimon Sinek29:13

       I don't know. You know, the argument you're making of this, this, this person who pushes everyone arguably is not a, not a repeatable model, right? You know, is Apple the same without Steve Jobs? Or is it slowly moving in a different direction? Um, or has he established something that could be resurrected with the right leader? Um...

   26. LFLex Fridman29:34

       That was his dream, I think, is to, to, to have a, orga- to build an organization that lives on beyond him.

   27. SSSimon Sinek29:39

       Right. I-

   28. LFLex Fridman29:40

       At least I remember reading that somewhere.

   29. SSSimon Sinek29:41

       ... I think that's what a lot of leaders desire, which is to create something that was bigger than them. You know, m- most businesses, most entrepreneurial ventures could not pass the school bus test, which is if the founder was hit by a school bus, would everyone continue the business without them, or would they all just go find jobs? And the vast majority of companies would fail that test, um, you know, uh, in, in, in, in, especially in the entrepreneurial world. That if you take the inspired visionary leader away, the whole thing collapses. So, is that a business, or is that just a force of personality?And a lot of entrepreneurs, you know, face that reality, which is they have to be in every meeting, make every decision, you know, come up with every idea, because if they don't, who will? And the question is as well, what have you done to build your bench? Um, is it... It's not... Sometimes it's ego, the belief that only I can. Uh, sometimes it's, um, just things got... did so well for so long that just forgot. Uh, and sometimes it's, uh, a failure, uh, to build the training programs or, uh, or hire the right people that, that could replace you, who are maybe smarter and better. Um, and browbeating people is only one strategy. I don't think it's necessarily the only strategy, nor is it always the best strategy. I think people, people get to choose the cultures they want to work in. So this is why I think, I think companies should be honest about the kind of culture that they've created. You know, I heard a story about Apple where some- somebody came in from a big company, you know, he had accomplished a lot and his ego was very large and he was going on about how he did this and he did that and he did this and he did that. And somebody from Apple said, "We don't care what you've done. The question is, what are you gonna do?" And that's, that's... You know, for somebody who wants to be pushed, that's the place you go because you choose to be pushed. Um, now, we all want to be pushed to some degree. You know, anybody who wants to, y- you know, accomplish anything in this world wants to be pushed to some degree, whether it's through self-pressure or external pressure or, you know, public pressure, whatever it is. Um, but I think this, this whole idea of one size fits all is a false narrative of how leadership works, but what all leadership requires is creating an environment in which people can work at their natural best.

   30. LFLex Fridman32:11

       But you have, you have a sense that it's possible to create a business where it lives on beyond you. So if we, if we look at now... If we just look at this current moment, I just recently talked to Jack Dorsey, CEO of Twitter-

Episode duration: 37:48