Skye Fitzgerald: Hunger, War, and Human Suffering | Lex Fridman Podcast #278

1. 0:00 – 1:00

   Introduction

   1. SFSkye Fitzgerald0:00

      We would come up to these rafts and these boats that were in really dire shape, and people would be pushed off and people would jump off and people would fall into the water, and, um, some of them couldn't swim. And so, we found ourselves in this moment where we had a choice. We could film someone drown in front of us or we could put our cameras down and pull them out of the water.

   2. LFLex Fridman0:31

      The following is a conversation with Skye Fitzgerald, a two-time Oscar nominated documentary filmmaker who made the films Hunger Ward, about the war in Yemen, Lifeboat, about the search and rescue operations off the coast of Libya, and 50 Feet from Syria, about the war in Syria. This is the Lex Fridman Podcast. To support it, please check out our sponsors in the description. And now, dear friends, here's Skye Fitzgerald.

2. 1:00 – 7:03

   World hunger

   1. LFLex Fridman1:00

      Nearly 811 million people worldwide are hungry today, and 45 million people are on the edge of famine across 43 countries. How do you feel? How do you make sense of that many people suffering from hunger and famine in the world today?

   2. SFSkye Fitzgerald1:17

      I don't know if I can make sense of it, Lex. I mean, I think, um, it's deeply disturbing to me that, as a global community, we've allowed this number of people to go hungry when the food to feed them exists and the resources to feed them exists. I think the thing that disturbs me most about those figures is that many of those who are starving today or going hungry today, um, are- are the net result of war and intentional acts by leaders to starve entire populations, and that's the most deeply disturbing part to me. Um, you- you know your history, um, and we all know that, you know, deeply embedded in the Geneva Conventions post World War II, the intent of one of those articles was to ban the use of starvation as a weapon of war, uh, because of what Hitler did during World War II. That's been reiterated multiple times over the years in international humanitarian law, including in 2018 because of the Saudi blockade over Yemen, and yet to this day, starvation as a weapon of war continues to be used in Ethiopia, obviously in Ukraine right now, and in Yemen with the blockade over the country. And that- that disgusts me, that the law is in place but it won't be enforced by the international bodies and the nation states that are- that make up the international community.

   3. LFLex Fridman2:50

      So, when the starvation is a result of human actions, human decisions, that's especially painful to make sense of?

   4. SFSkye Fitzgerald3:00

      For me personally, yeah. I- I think that if you and I sitting here didn't eat for three days, um, and had to, you know, lay our head on the sidewalk for a couple nights, I think we would take, you know, hunger and homelessness a lot more seriously. And I think that's f- for some reason, that's missing at this moment in history, tragically, and I think until that we can generate enough empathy, um, that's immediate for all of us to understand what that means to go hungry, I'm not sure we're gonna sort of marshal the- the global co- community to solve it.

   5. LFLex Fridman3:39

      I did just that, by the way, uh, fasted for three days, uh, recently. It's fundamentally different, I think, because th- the thing that would be terrifying to me is not the fasting but the hopelessness at the end of the fast. Like, uh, I wouldn't know when the next meal is coming.

   6. SFSkye Fitzgerald3:58

      Yeah.

   7. LFLex Fridman3:59

      I always had the freedom to have the meal.

   8. SFSkye Fitzgerald4:01

      Yeah.

   9. LFLex Fridman4:01

      The fear for not just your own ability to eat and survive, but your family's, if there's loved ones. That's the other thing I don't have. I'm single.

   10. SFSkye Fitzgerald4:11

       Mm-hmm.

   11. LFLex Fridman4:11

       And so, I feel like the worst suffering is watching somebody you love that you're supposed to be a caretaker of and you can't take care of them. (sighs) And if all of that is caused by leaders i- in, um, as- as a weapon of war, that is especially painful. So, how can we, um, how can we help? What are the ways to help? How do we alleviate this- this suffering?

   12. SFSkye Fitzgerald4:47

       (exhales) Well, I think on the, you know, I think on the humanitarian front, we have to be aggressive, um, and attentive and intervene in significant ways, and I think on the political front, we have to hold, uh, players accountable for their actions.

   13. LFLex Fridman5:06

       So, the leaders that start the war. So you, when you say, "We have to speak up about the- the decisions and the humans making those decisions-

   14. SFSkye Fitzgerald5:13

       Yeah.

   15. LFLex Fridman5:14

       ...that lead to the starvation."

   16. SFSkye Fitzgerald5:15

       Yeah. For- for example, let's make it concrete. So, you know, when I was... I don't wanna jump ahead, but when I was filming Hunger Ward in Yemen, um, you know, I met a mother who when she gave birth weighed 70 pounds. The mother weighed 70 pounds. And so, her dau- daughter was starved in the womb, all right? When she was born, um, there were... She was born into a world with no breast milk, very little formula, right? So, she was starved before birth. She was born into a world where she continued to be starved, right? By a mother who herself was starved. I watched that child, her name is Asila, die in front of me, all right? Asila had no chance...... for all those things we hope for for a child in this world. She, she didn't have a chance to grow up, she didn't have a chance to discover love, she didn't have a chance to have a career. She was robbed of all of those things because of the insidious nature of hunger that she was born into. She didn't have to die. She, she, you know, she was not starving. She w- her mother was being starved, right, because of the blockade over the country. Now, who instituted that blockade? MBS in Saudi Arabia, with the reinforcement and sort of tacit approval of the United States, our own government here. And so, there are people who are responsible for the starvation of children and I think we need to hold them accountable. Now, that's incredibly difficult to do, but just because it's difficult doesn't mean it not, it ought not to be done.

3. 7:03 – 29:30

   Hunger Ward

   1. LFLex Fridman7:03

      And we'll talk about many cases like these throughout history and going on today. Let's talk about Hunger Ward.

   2. SFSkye Fitzgerald7:10

      Yeah.

   3. LFLex Fridman7:10

      Let's dive in. You are, you've been nominated for an Oscar twice. This is one of, uh, the times, for a documentary. Can you please tell me what Hunger Ward: The Last Hope between War and Starvation is about?

   4. SFSkye Fitzgerald7:27

      Hunger Ward is a, is a short documentary, um, that really is an attempt to illustrate the effects of, uh, the conflict on Yemen, specifically on civilians. And we document it in, in both the north and the south of the country because it's a bifurcated country. The south is held by the globally recognized government in the south which, up until last week, (laughs) uh, was run by, a- at least on the surface, by President Hadi, um, holed up in Riyadh. Um, he was essentially, um, r-removed from office last week by, um, most people would agree, the Emirates and the Saudis, um, to put in place a presidential council. So, we wanted to show that starvation was happening in very similar fashions, both in the south and the north. So, and, and we wanted to do this film because, um, so few people in the West know anything about the conflict in Yemen, nor, um, the U.S.' complicity in it. And so my intent with the project was try to bring it to a larger Western audience as an attempt to intervene and change the political status quo which allows the use of starvation in Yemen to continue.

   5. LFLex Fridman8:44

      So, U.S. complicity. Who are the bad guys? Now, the world, unfortunately, cannot be painted in black and white of good guys and bad guys, but for the purpose of conversation, who is, um, doing, causing suffering in the world in this situation? W- who started the war? Why? And then, of course, the roots of war go back in history-

   6. SFSkye Fitzgerald9:14

      Yeah.

   7. LFLex Fridman9:14

      ... but if we, let's start at the, at, at, at the top.

   8. SFSkye Fitzgerald9:17

      Well, there are bad actors and there are less bad actors.

   9. LFLex Fridman9:20

      Right. (laughs)

   10. SFSkye Fitzgerald9:20

       Right? I mean, I think that's always the case (laughs) in war probably.

   11. LFLex Fridman9:22

       And everybody loses in war.

   12. SFSkye Fitzgerald9:24

       Yeah, I w- I, I concur with that statement. Um, in, in the case of the sort of, the status quo in Yemen right now, um, it's a completely asymmetrical war. Um, and so the Saudi coalition, which is made up of primarily Saudi Arabia, the Emirates, United States, France, uh, Britain supplying weapons, but it's really driven, um, and catalyzed by Saudi Arabia. Um, and it's asymmetrical to a great extent just because of the incredible firepower by air that the Saudis, um, use continuously to pummel northern Yemen. Um, when I was there, uh, the, the sheer volume of airstrikes is, is hard to describe, and we show the result of only one in the film really, but it's an asymmetrical war. The de facto authorities of the north, um, Ansar Allah, also known as the Houthi rebel group, you know, they, um, they don't have an air force, right? They have a drone force, but they don't have an air force. And so, it's a, from a military standpoint, it's completely asymmetrical. The Saudis really don't commit troops to the ground. They use only proxies to fight on the ground.

   13. LFLex Fridman10:37

       What is the narrative they use to justify war? So, there's a story on every side in war.

   14. SFSkye Fitzgerald10:46

       Yeah.

   15. LFLex Fridman10:46

       Uh, some of it is grounded in truth, some of it is not at all grounded in truth, also known as propaganda. What's the narrative used by the Saudis for this war?

   16. SFSkye Fitzgerald10:58

       The Saudi line is essentially that the Houthis are an illegitimate government, um, and that, that it's really a proxy raw-war between Iran, who supports the Houthis nominally, um, and the rest of the world. That's the Saudi narrative. The reality is something altogether different. While the Houthis do receive support from Iran, this is a war started by and sustained by MBS in Saudi Arabia.

   17. LFLex Fridman11:25

       Who's MBS?

   18. SFSkye Fitzgerald11:26

       Mohammed bin Salman.

   19. LFLex Fridman11:28

       And who is he?

   20. SFSkye Fitzgerald11:29

       He is the, the son of the ruler of Saudi Arabia.

   21. LFLex Fridman11:33

       What's his power? I'm asking basic, dumb questions here.

   22. SFSkye Fitzgerald11:36

       He's the de facto ruler, uh-

   23. LFLex Fridman11:38

       Of the military and the-

   24. SFSkye Fitzgerald11:40

       Yes. He seized-

   25. LFLex Fridman11:40

       ... of everything?

   26. SFSkye Fitzgerald11:41

       ... control s- uh, c- control of the country several years ago, even though he, on the surface, you know, is not the ruler of Saudi Arabia. He is. He's the crowned prince.

   27. LFLex Fridman11:48

       And sorry to interrupt often, but who is he as a man? What's your sense of the man?

   28. SFSkye Fitzgerald11:54

       Yeah, so you know, I've never met him and I, I likely will never meet him, hopefully. Um, but he is, I know a lot about him through his actions, sort of, uh, in, in the MENA region, uh, Middle East and North Africa region.And, um, he is one of three, in my view, as an American sitting here in the US, three people in the world that, um, I think has caused such an incredible volume of misery and suffering and murder on this planet, that, um, I think if, if he weren't around the world would be a lot better place. And, and I'm not a violent person by nature but there are three human beings that I think, um, the world would be better off without.

   29. LFLex Fridman12:43

       Do you mind, before I ask other questions, mentioning the three?

   30. SFSkye Fitzgerald12:47

       Oh, yeah. Assad is one, in Syria, and that comes out of a earlier project that I did in Syria and Turkey, um, and, and what I saw, uh, Assad as a, as a ruler do to his own people. Um, and, and Putin would be the third. Those three human beings are, uh, murderers on a scale, uh, beyond imagining.
4. 29:30 – 34:41

   Language

   1. LFLex Fridman29:30

      to feel the culture of the people, so the, the language barrier? Were you able to break through the language barrier or the culture barrier, you know, to understand the people? You know, um, 'cause even, even suffering has a language of, uh, o- of sorts depending on where you are.

   2. SFSkye Fitzgerald29:50

      Yeah.

   3. LFLex Fridman29:50

      The way people joke about things.

   4. SFSkye Fitzgerald29:52

      Yeah.

   5. LFLex Fridman29:52

      The way they cry.

   6. SFSkye Fitzgerald29:54

      Yeah.

   7. LFLex Fridman29:54

      The way... I, I... This is an interesting thing I actually wanna ask you. Sorry, I'm asking a million questions. I find that the people... You know, I've been talking to people in Ukraine and Russia, but in general, I've gotten the chance to talk to people who've been through trauma in their life, and there's a humor they have about trauma and hard times.

   8. SFSkye Fitzgerald30:21

      Yeah.

   9. LFLex Fridman30:22

      Um, it depends on the culture, of course. Uh, certainly Russian-speaking folk-I mean, the- (laughs) the- the more suffering you experience, for some reason, the more they joke about it. It's almost like they're able to see something deep about humanity now that they have suffered, and they're able to laugh at the absurdity, the injustice of it all. And, you know, you could also say it's a way for them to deal with it. But that- that humor has a kind of profound, like, um, understanding within it (laughs) about what it means to be human that I just... And- and then you- y- to really understand it, you have to know the language. Um, I guess I'm asking, were you able to really feel the humans on the other side of the language?

   10. SFSkye Fitzgerald31:11

       I'd like to think so. I mean- I mean, as you noted, you know, there- there are universals in life that- that transcend language, right? I mean, suffering is suffering. Love is love. Compassion doesn't take place only through language, right? Um, it's through actions. And so, um, was there language barrier? Absolutely. Right? Did we try to bridge that through e- through other means and- and- and sort of universal emotions and experiences? Absolutely. That's one of the things I always think about when I'm filming is- is- is how do we distill down to universals, right? Um, through- through imagery, right? Through, um, through the vocabulary of cinema, right? 'Cause I believe so deeply that, uh, that vocabulary should be visual, right?

   11. LFLex Fridman31:58

       So the words, what's the most powerful way to express the universal? Is it visual or is it language, words?

   12. SFSkye Fitzgerald32:07

       I think it's visual.

   13. LFLex Fridman32:09

       And we're talking about the human face or human face, human body, everything?

   14. SFSkye Fitzgerald32:14

       Through actions as well.

   15. LFLex Fridman32:15

       Actions, the dynamic.

   16. SFSkye Fitzgerald32:16

       I'm thinking about a woman named Salha in the film, who isn't named, but she's... Y- you see her multiple times, uh, throughout the film, and she's basically the matron of the ward in this house, and she- she's the gatekeeper for the ward, so no one enters that ward (laughs) without her per- she's literally the gatekeeper at the door. So no one comes in unless Salha allows them to come in, right? But then she also is sort of, like, the- the first point of contact for compassion in the ward. So when- when mothers and families are admitted, she forms relationships between the moms and the grandmothers, for example, who are admitted and who are living there on the ward, and she does it through hugging, right?

   17. LFLex Fridman33:03

       Mm-hmm.

   18. SFSkye Fitzgerald33:03

       She does it through bringing them food, right? And she forms these really, rather quickly, deep relationships, um, of compassion with the families. And so it's- it's amazing to watch, and no language is needed, right? To bear witness to this. And- and she also suffers because of that, right? And so at the- near the end of the film, if you recall, um, when- when another child dies and the mother is wailing, we actually cut away to Salha, who's in the hallway, who walks into another room and begins sobbing. She's not a family member, but she has a deep relationship with that family that she forged as soon as they stepped into the ward. So that's universal, right? To see a woman weep because a child has died, even if they're not related to that, that's a universal sort of emotional experience we can all relate to.

   19. LFLex Fridman34:04

       And that-

   20. SFSkye Fitzgerald34:04

       So that's what I mean by a visual vocabulary.

   21. LFLex Fridman34:07

       And it's especially powerful because she has seen much of this kind of suffering and she still, uh, maybe she has built up some callous to be able to l- uh, work day-to-day, but it's still, uh, there's still an ocean underneath the ice.

   22. SFSkye Fitzgerald34:25

       She's kept her heart open-

   23. LFLex Fridman34:26

       Yes. Yes.

   24. SFSkye Fitzgerald34:26

       ... despite all the pain that she sees-

   25. LFLex Fridman34:28

       Yes.

   26. SFSkye Fitzgerald34:29

       ... and feels every day. Somehow she's a human being who's able to do that, which is a very difficult thing to do.

   27. LFLex Fridman34:34

       Right. Right.

   28. SFSkye Fitzgerald34:35

       Right? She still allows herself to be vulnerable, um, and maybe that's why she can do what she does.

5. 34:41 – 45:25

   Famine

   1. SFSkye Fitzgerald34:42

   2. LFLex Fridman34:43

      What lessons do you draw from other famines in history? So, uh, for me personally, one that's touched my family and one of the great famines in history is, um, in Ukraine, Holodomor in the '30s.

   3. SFSkye Fitzgerald34:56

      '32, '33, right?

   4. LFLex Fridman34:57

      '32-

   5. SFSkye Fitzgerald34:58

      Stalin, yeah.

   6. LFLex Fridman34:58

      ... '33 with- with Stalin.

   7. SFSkye Fitzgerald34:59

      Yeah.

   8. LFLex Fridman34:59

      Maybe you could speak to the universals of the suffering here. Um, what lessons do you draw from those other famines if you've looked at them, or in general about famine, that are manufactured by the decisions of, let's say, authoritarian leaders?

   9. SFSkye Fitzgerald35:21

      (inhales) (exhales) Um, famine doesn't have to exist, or the bulk of famines on- famines on this planet, I believe, don't have to exist, and- and most of them, uh, or at least a good number of them, are manufactured by the leaders, um, that choose to use famine as a weapon, right? And- and Ukraine is the m- one of the obvious examples right now, you know, with siege tactics that are happening in different parts of the country. And, um, you know, we built international humanitarian law for a reason, right? Many years ago, um, and it continues to be written to this day. And it's there to prevent what's happening in Ukraine right now. It's there to prevent what's been happening in Yemen for seven years, and yet there hasn't been any teeth behind it, and that's what disturbs me, is that we can see how these famines are being used...... as weapons in war, and yet we aren't sort of using the levers of power that exist, um, in order to, I think, to call out i- in important and powerful ways those who are causing them and to make sure that we hold them accountable on the global stage. Now, to some extent, that seems to be happening in Ukraine in a way that hasn't happened for a long time, and that gives me hope, right? And yet, I don't believe we've done enough, um, and I think the- the international community needs to do far more than we are both in Yemen, in Ethiopia, um, and in Ukraine right now.

   10. LFLex Fridman37:09

       There are certain kinds of things that captivate the global attention, and it seems like starvation is not always one of them. For some reason, murder and destruction gets people attention more. It's the death, of course, is easy to enumerate, but it's the suffering that's the problem.

   11. SFSkye Fitzgerald37:30

       Yeah. Yeah. You know when- when we went to sh- film Hunger Ward, that was one of the creative questions that I was really concerned about because starvation, you know, it's not a quick action, right?

   12. LFLex Fridman37:43

       Yeah.

   13. SFSkye Fitzgerald37:43

       It's a long, slow, insidious process, right? Just like hunger, right? And yet, when you're hungry, right? Um, it takes you over. It becomes the most important thing, right? It's just absolutely fundamental to- to life.

   14. LFLex Fridman38:00

       Yeah.

   15. SFSkye Fitzgerald38:00

       It's like drawing breath. And so I- I really... Before I filmed Hunger Ward, I- I- I struggled to sort of answer how we could creatively approach that because, you know, (laughs) someone's sitting in a clinic, right? Starving or being treated for starvation, you know, that's a pretty static scene, right? Um, and what we found was that because of the volume of cases and because of the nature of sort of, um, how quickly, um, people were coming and going is that it- it was more dynamic than we anticipated.

   16. LFLex Fridman38:36

       And there's something also about starvation. You get tired. It's almost like, um, it's a quiet suffering.

   17. SFSkye Fitzgerald38:43

       Yeah.

   18. LFLex Fridman38:44

       (laughs) Like, uh... And by the way, there's something about, when I think about dark times, I mean, you- you- you'll hear me chuckle, for example. I don't know what that is.

   19. SFSkye Fitzgerald38:54

       (laughs)

   20. LFLex Fridman38:55

       That's almost like... (laughs) It's almost like you- you have to kind of laugh at... Uh, you can't help but laugh at, like, uh, the injustice and the cruelty in the world. Somehow that helps your mind deal with it. I mean, I see this all the time. Like, when you're struggling, you can't feed your family, you lost your home, the last thing you have is jokes about-

   21. SFSkye Fitzgerald39:21

       Is humor.

   22. LFLex Fridman39:22

       Yes, humor.

   23. SFSkye Fitzgerald39:22

       (laughs) That's right.

   24. LFLex Fridman39:23

       It's like, "Ah, the- the fucking man fucked me over again."

   25. SFSkye Fitzgerald39:28

       (laughs) That's right.

   26. LFLex Fridman39:28

       And there's jokes all around that.

   27. SFSkye Fitzgerald39:30

       Yeah.

   28. LFLex Fridman39:30

       And- and then- and then you laugh and you drink vodka and you play music. I don't know what that is. I don't know what that is.

   29. SFSkye Fitzgerald39:38

       It's gallows humor, right? It's- it's- it's a way of- a way of, I think, simultaneously acknowledging and- and allowing yourself to move forward, right? Beyond the pain and- and the suffering.

   30. LFLex Fridman39:49

       So, you mentioned Ukraine and you mentioned Putin. Uh, what are your thoughts about the humanitarian crisis and generally the suffering that's resulting from the war in Ukraine?
6. 45:25 – 51:53

   Authoritarianism

   1. SFSkye Fitzgerald45:25

      come from that.

   2. LFLex Fridman45:26

      About half the world is under authoritarian regimes. Everybody operates under narratives, and there's a narrative in the United States that freedom is good.

   3. SFSkye Fitzgerald45:37

      Yeah.

   4. LFLex Fridman45:37

      Democracy is good. I have fallen victim to this narrative. I believe in it. Um, I'm saying this jokingly-

   5. SFSkye Fitzgerald45:47

      Yeah.

   6. LFLex Fridman45:47

      ... but not really.

   7. SFSkye Fitzgerald45:48

      (laughs)

   8. LFLex Fridman45:49

      Because who knows the truth of anything in this world? Uh, I eat meat, factory farmed meat-

   9. SFSkye Fitzgerald45:56

      Yeah.

   10. LFLex Fridman45:57

       ... and I seem to not be intellectually and philosophically tortured by this, and I should be. There's a lot of suffering there. What do we do to lessen the suffering of the people under authoritarian regimes? Again, the same question, military conflict, diplomacy, sanctions, all those kinds of things. Uh, is, does that lessen suffering or increase the suffering from what you see in Yemen? Is it, is it something that has to be healed across generations or can be healed on a scale of months and years?

   11. SFSkye Fitzgerald46:39

       I'm just a guy with a camera-

   12. LFLex Fridman46:40

       Yeah.

   13. SFSkye Fitzgerald46:40

       ... Lex.

   14. LFLex Fridman46:41

       Yeah.

   15. SFSkye Fitzgerald46:41

       You know? But as a guy with a camera, I, I, I've seen, uh, a lot, a lot of things in a lot of places, and, um, and I've seen the effects these decisions made by authoritarian leaders have on their own citizens, and, and that's what drives my thinking on this. Um, and, and that's what drives and motivates me each day to raise the red flag through my films and say, "Listen, Biden, you, um, campaigned for president in part on a platform that said that we would regain our prominence on the moral stage of the world, right? And that we would prioritize, right? Um, sort of a, a moral paradigm over relationships with authoritarian regimes, Saudi Arabia being one, right?" And yet, when the CIA report came out that clearly articulated in detail that MBS was responsible for Khashoggi's murder and for cutting his body into pieces and probably burning it in the backyard of the, of the embassy, um, what did Biden do? He didn't really make a pariah out of MBS like he said he was going to, right? What if he'd done something else and actually done what he said he was gonna do, which was make MB- What if he had, would remove the ability for MBS to fly to the United States, for example? Now, that's a sanction, right? That's a sanction that's individual and concrete and would be hugely embarrassing for MBS. That would have been Biden saying, "This is unacceptable behavior," right? "This is something which because you executed such a horrendous act on someone living in the United States, right, we are not going to, um..."... give you a stage here, at least, right? Within the borders of our country. Those are the things that leaders can do that I don't think they do often enough. And certainly, our leader right now isn't doing it in the way I wish he were. He certainly has taken a different stand on Ukraine, um, you know, and been very vocal, but there's so many instances we could talk about where I feel like, um, the, the political gamesmanship, right? Often falls into maintaining relationships like with MBS and Saudi Arabia, rather than doing the right thing, rather than, than as a nation, a leader of a nation saying, "This is unacceptable. We have a higher standard than this." 'Cause I think when leaders do that, um, it becomes aspirational, right? It becomes aspirational for other leaders, um, uh, in the progressive world, at least, and also, it, it rings the alarm bells for other authori- authoritarian leaders and says, "You know what? There are lines," right? "There are things that can't be done, or there will be significant consequences." Like, "You will not be able to fly into our airspace anymore." Um, and, and sanctions, I think, need to be concrete and individual to some ... in, in addition to sort of, the larger scope. But when they're concrete and individual, uh, I think often they're felt in a different way.

   16. LFLex Fridman50:04

       You mean, felt, obviously, by the individuals, and so the, the ripple effects of that, uh, is ... might have, um, the power to steer the direction of nations?

   17. SFSkye Fitzgerald50:19

       Because of the nature of authoritarian regimes.

   18. LFLex Fridman50:20

       Yes.

   19. SFSkye Fitzgerald50:21

       Right? They're, they're-

   20. LFLex Fridman50:21

       'Cause individuals have so much power in authoritarian regimes.

   21. SFSkye Fitzgerald50:23

       Exactly, right. So, so, you know, um, you know, i- if Putin is, is, you know, put on trial in The Hague at some point, or at least there's the threat of that, right? Now, that's likely never to happen, of course, because someone has to be in custody to go on trial, right? And he's never gonna allow that to happen, but, but just knowing that that's an ... you know, that danger exists is going to change his travel plans in the future, right? Um, MBS not being able to fly to the US, he's gonna feel that and be embarrassed by that. Um, so I think s- they have a special, um, meaning and consequence in authoritarian regimes because of that.

   22. LFLex Fridman51:04

       So you said you're just a guy with a camera?

   23. SFSkye Fitzgerald51:06

       Yeah.

   24. LFLex Fridman51:07

       Um, I would say you're a, a brilliant guy with a camera. I'm also a kind of guy with a camera.

   25. SFSkye Fitzgerald51:16

       (laughs) You're a guy with a couple cameras, actually.

   26. LFLex Fridman51:17

       A couple cameras.

   27. SFSkye Fitzgerald51:17

       (laughs) I have more- And a couple mics, too.

   28. LFLex Fridman51:19

       ... multiples. (laughs)

   29. SFSkye Fitzgerald51:19

       (laughs) You got a couple mics, couple cameras, a robot over here.

   30. LFLex Fridman51:23

       Um, when you can't-
7. 51:53 – 1:05:27

   Storytelling

   1. LFLex Fridman51:53

      As a filmmaker, how do you figure out how to tell this story? I'm, I'm sure a guy with a camera, you're looking at war in Ukraine, but also what's going on in Yemen, in Syria, and other places in the world. I mentioned North Korea. That's a super interesting one.

   2. SFSkye Fitzgerald52:10

      Mm-hmm.

   3. LFLex Fridman52:10

      Hard to bring cameras along. China, you know, uh, like in Canada, the truckers, there's all kinds of fascinating things happening in the world.

   4. SFSkye Fitzgerald52:19

      Yeah.

   5. LFLex Fridman52:19

      So you as a, as a scholar of human suffering and human flourishing, um, how do you choose how to tell the story?

   6. SFSkye Fitzgerald52:29

      How do I choose a story, how do I choose how to tell the story?

   7. LFLex Fridman52:30

      Both, both the story and how ... I, I assume those are coupled. Uh, so how do you choose which story to tell?

   8. SFSkye Fitzgerald52:37

      Yeah.

   9. LFLex Fridman52:38

      And how do you choose how to tell that story?

   10. SFSkye Fitzgerald52:41

       Yeah. Well, in terms of how to, how to choose which story, um, you know, it's, it's a bit of a mystery potion for me, frankly, um, I, I go off on instinct, but there's also a highly intentional piece of it for me as well. And the intentional piece is, I guess I'd call it the do-I-care threshold, you know, or the so-what threshold.

   11. LFLex Fridman53:08

       You personally, just something in your heart just kinda gets ex- excited or hurts or just feels-

   12. SFSkye Fitzgerald53:15

       Yeah.

   13. LFLex Fridman53:15

       ... something.

   14. SFSkye Fitzgerald53:15

       So one, one of the things that disturbs me about American culture, Lex, is, is that, you know, we seem to be a people that's fascinated by reality television, for example. Like, like, look at how many of us here in America watch reality television, right? That deeply disturbs me. Not that I've never watched an episode. I've shot a whole season of it once to make a living, right? So it's like, I, I know it, right? But I feel like the things we should be paying attention to are the things, personally, are the things I choose to film, right? As a human being, as a dad, as a filmmaker, I think we should be paying attention to the fact that children are being starved in Yemen. I think we should be paying attention to the fact that Ukrainians are being displaced by the millions. So there's this so-what threshold that I use, and I feel like it has to be a topic that if we don't cover and we don't put out in the world in the largest possible way, in the hope of intervening, in the hope of marshaling maximum resources and attention to solving the problem, that's what I'm dedicated to as a filmmaker. Because I didn't pick up a camera initially to film puppy dogs, right? To make people smile. I believe the camera is a tool for change. I believe the camera is a powerful tool that we can use to raise awareness and marshal resources and help people understand the impact that these geopolitical decisions have on real people's lives. And that's the ... that, that's the intent.... I create each film with. Now, how I choose each story, that's the, the magic potion piece of it, right? And, and, um, often one flows rather organically into another, frankly.

   15. LFLex Fridman55:07

       So you just kinda, like you said, you go with instinct a little bit.

   16. SFSkye Fitzgerald55:10

       To some extent, but oftentimes, I choose the next project based on relationships I've developed-

   17. LFLex Fridman55:16

       Yeah.

   18. SFSkye Fitzgerald55:16

       ... in the last film, right? Um, and so one often flows into another through relationships I develop, and then a colleague will share a detail about something that's happening in a certain place and I'll go, "Hmm, really? I didn't know that," right? And it, usually it's before it's hit the world stage in a big way, and so I start to do du- due diligence, and often that, it reveals it to be a much bigger and more pressing topic that, um, that I wanna learn more about.

   19. LFLex Fridman55:45

       Before I talk to you about Syria, uh, and Lifeboat, you mentioned a camera is the best weapon. Maybe just-

   20. SFSkye Fitzgerald55:57

       Well, it can't take out a tank, right?

   21. LFLex Fridman55:59

       Right.

   22. SFSkye Fitzgerald55:59

       But it's a good weapon.

   23. LFLex Fridman55:59

       It's the second ... Top, top three.

   24. SFSkye Fitzgerald56:02

       (laughs)

   25. LFLex Fridman56:02

       Yeah. I love, I love the humor throughout this. It's, I really, (laughs) I really appreciate it. It's making ... We were talking about such dark topics-

   26. SFSkye Fitzgerald56:08

       Yeah.

   27. LFLex Fridman56:08

       ... it, um, it resets the mind in a way that allows me to think. So, thank you. As a, (sighs) as a, as a filmmaker, almost wanna talk about the technical details.

   28. SFSkye Fitzgerald56:25

       Uh-oh.

   29. LFLex Fridman56:26

       How, how do you ... (laughs)

   30. SFSkye Fitzgerald56:27

       (laughs)
8. 1:05:27 – 1:09:50

   Access

   1. SFSkye Fitzgerald1:05:27

   2. LFLex Fridman1:05:27

      Could you speak to the getting access? Is this just, uh, you know, is there interesting stories of how, um, uh, weird or funny or profound ways that led you to get access to a room?

   3. SFSkye Fitzgerald1:05:44

      (laughs) Each one is a different adventure, and it's definitely an adventure.

   4. LFLex Fridman1:05:48

      It's an adventure.

   5. SFSkye Fitzgerald1:05:48

      E- everyone's an adventure, yeah. The, probably one of the easiest ones I ever had in, in the recent past was for 50 Feet From Syria, where, um, you know, I literally broke my hand in a bicycle race, and after many months of trying to get, um, uh, an appointment with an orthopedic hand surgeon, you know, a specialist, I finally did, and he was Syrian American, and the Syrian conflict had just begun and we just started talking about it, and-

   6. LFLex Fridman1:06:17

      (laughs) Yeah.

   7. SFSkye Fitzgerald1:06:17

      ... um, after, you know, he looked at my hand and the first five minutes, he's like, "Yeah, you need surgery," right? I went, "Great." But then somehow, we started talking about Syria, and like five minutes in, he just stood up and like put the privacy curtain around us, supposed to be a 15 minute appointment or so-

   8. LFLex Fridman1:06:32

      Yeah.

   9. SFSkye Fitzgerald1:06:33

      ... and we talked for an hour.

   10. LFLex Fridman1:06:34

       Mm-hmm.

   11. SFSkye Fitzgerald1:06:34

       Right? So, you know, those moments of sort of mysterious confluence happen, right? And I think you have to be open to them-

   12. LFLex Fridman1:06:42

       Mm-hmm.

   13. SFSkye Fitzgerald1:06:42

       ... when they do happen. Because I'm a storyteller, I'm always looking as well, right? So, so because he then contacted me later and said, "Sky, I am going back to the Syrian border to volunteer as a surgeon. Do you want to come with me?" That was an easy one. That's probably the easiest one I could give you-

   14. LFLex Fridman1:06:59

       Mm-hmm.

   15. SFSkye Fitzgerald1:06:59

       ... but it, it came out of this interesting moment, very personal moment, right? Lifeboat and, and Hunger Ward were completely different. Um-... and I had to really work hard to gain access to those stories.

   16. LFLex Fridman1:07:12

       So, you intentionally thought like, "What, uh... I want to get access to the story."

   17. SFSkye Fitzgerald1:07:17

       Yeah.

   18. LFLex Fridman1:07:18

       And then what are the different ideas? And they often might involve a doctor or a dentist or (laughs) ... Just being- being maybe intentionally and aggressively open to experiences that lead you into the room. So it'd be like, uh... It- it's funny you mentioned the doctor, 'cause I have similar experiences now. I've just gotten access to all kinds of fascinating people-

   19. SFSkye Fitzgerald1:07:47

       Yeah.

   20. LFLex Fridman1:07:48

       ... in the same, in the same way. You-

   21. SFSkye Fitzgerald1:07:49

       They're all around us.

   22. LFLex Fridman1:07:50

       They're all-

   23. SFSkye Fitzgerald1:07:51

       They're all around us.

   24. LFLex Fridman1:07:52

       (laughs) Yeah.

   25. SFSkye Fitzgerald1:07:52

       You just have to look.

   26. LFLex Fridman1:07:53

       Yeah, exactly.

   27. SFSkye Fitzgerald1:07:53

       Right? It's like, there's fascinating people everywhere who are doing incredible things-

   28. LFLex Fridman1:07:57

       Yeah.

   29. SFSkye Fitzgerald1:07:57

       ... but we have to be open and keep our eyes open and realize that there are amazing human beings everywhere.

   30. LFLex Fridman1:08:04

       Yeah. There's networks that connect people just through life. You meet people-
9. 1:09:50 – 1:13:32

   Trust

   1. SFSkye Fitzgerald1:09:50

      time.

   2. LFLex Fridman1:09:50

      How do you gain people's trust? Like, for example, there's a line between journalists and documentary filmmakers.

   3. SFSkye Fitzgerald1:09:58

      Yeah.

   4. LFLex Fridman1:09:58

      Nobody really trusts journalists. (laughs)

   5. SFSkye Fitzgerald1:10:02

      (laughs) Yeah, right. Exactly.

   6. LFLex Fridman1:10:03

      But a documentary filmmaker... Um, of course I'm joking, half joking, I don't know which percentage joking, but some truth. But a documentary filmmaker is a kind of storyteller, an artist.

   7. SFSkye Fitzgerald1:10:16

      Yeah.

   8. LFLex Fridman1:10:16

      And somehow that's more trustworthy because you're on the same side in some way. I don't know.

   9. SFSkye Fitzgerald1:10:23

      Maybe, maybe-

   10. LFLex Fridman1:10:23

       Maybe.

   11. SFSkye Fitzgerald1:10:23

       ... on the same side, yeah.

   12. LFLex Fridman1:10:24

       Maybe. Is there something to be said how you gain the trust of people to gain access? Do you just, are you just, try to be a good human being? Um, is there something to be said there?

   13. SFSkye Fitzgerald1:10:35

       Well, so I do draw a distinction between journalism and filmmaking, because I think you're right, they're different. Um, and there are some filmmakers who do hew to, um, sort of the journalistic tenets of who, what, where, when, why, fair and balanced on both sides, right? Make sure everyone has a voice. I don't.

   14. LFLex Fridman1:10:53

       If you say fair and balanced, you're rarely either fair or balanced.

   15. SFSkye Fitzgerald1:10:57

       Yeah.

   16. LFLex Fridman1:10:58

       I've seen that with journalists. Uh, journalists often, unfortunately, in my perspective... Sorry to interrupt you rudely and go on a rant, but they seem to have-

   17. SFSkye Fitzgerald1:11:06

       Go on a rant, do it. (laughs)

   18. LFLex Fridman1:11:07

       They seem to have an agenda-

   19. SFSkye Fitzgerald1:11:09

       Yeah.

   20. LFLex Fridman1:11:09

       ... as opposed to seeking to truly tell a story or to truly understand. Um, especially when they're talking to people, uh, who have some degree of evil in them.

   21. SFSkye Fitzgerald1:11:24

       Well, we all have an agenda, right? I think in anything we do, whether it's like, um, to seek truth or, you know, some- some larger principle.

   22. LFLex Fridman1:11:32

       Sure.

   23. SFSkye Fitzgerald1:11:33

       Um, I- I always have an agenda.

   24. LFLex Fridman1:11:35

       Yeah.

   25. SFSkye Fitzgerald1:11:35

       Um, like I chose to work with civilians and- and caretakers in Yemen on Hunger Ward, rather than to go interview MBS, right? Um, that's what I'm interested in, is bringing that to the world, right? Um, but in terms of- uh, in terms of building relationships and trust, it's- it's really, I think about transparency as much as anything else, and going in in a collaborative sense. So I don't- I don't- I don't think of- uh, of the people that I film with as subjects, for example. I think of them as collaborators. So it's a different mindset that I go into projects with and-

   26. LFLex Fridman1:12:17

       That's beautiful.

   27. SFSkye Fitzgerald1:12:18

       ... and it's based on relationships, right? You have to build relationships with other human beings however you can, and that takes time, um, and it takes listening, and it's active. So, it's- it's... I- I've talked about the notion of consent before, which- which, you know, is so important in nonfiction film. And, you know, I hew to this idea that, um, you know, you don't just slide a piece of paper in front of someone, a release form, and have them sign it, right? And then you're done. You know, that's not the nature of true consent in my mind. It's, you have to- you have to work on a foundation of active consent every single day that you're working with someone. And that's based on relationship, right?

   28. LFLex Fridman1:13:01

       Mm-hmm.

   29. SFSkye Fitzgerald1:13:01

       And it's based on dialogue. So- so it's trust that I'm always aiming for. It's- it's the building of relationships which I'm always aiming for, which is why, you know, yesterday I got, um, a bunch of photos from Dr. Al-Sadiq in the south of Yemen, and she sends me photos all the time of the children that she's currently treating because we have an active relationship that's continues on and probably will-... for many years to come, you know. So that, it's- it's- it's- it's going to continue and that's the only way that I can do these kinds of films.

10. 1:13:32 – 1:18:18

    Film equipment

    1. SFSkye Fitzgerald1:13:32

    2. LFLex Fridman1:13:32

       Let me ask you about silly little details...

    3. SFSkye Fitzgerald1:13:35

       (laughs)

    4. LFLex Fridman1:13:36

       ... of filming, before-

    5. SFSkye Fitzgerald1:13:37

       Details.

    6. LFLex Fridman1:13:37

       ... before we go to the big- big picture stories. Um, cameras, lenses.

    7. SFSkye Fitzgerald1:13:44

       Yeah.

    8. LFLex Fridman1:13:44

       Do those, how much do those matter? You mentioned director of photography. What- what's your, how much do you love the- the feel, the smell of equipment that does the visual filming? You know, there's some people-

    9. SFSkye Fitzgerald1:13:57

       Yeah.

    10. LFLex Fridman1:13:57

        ... they're just like, (sighs) , they- they- they love lenses. How much do you love that? And, or, versus how much do you focus on the story or the access and all those kind of things?

    11. SFSkye Fitzgerald1:14:09

        I'm not a tech geek, um, but because during the bulk of my career I, um, I've worked as a director of photography myself for other people in order to pay the bills over the years, um, you know, I know the technical side of it because I- I've had to know it, and I've had to train myself and learn it. So, I see them as necessary tools and, again, because I believe, you know, film and cinema ish is and should be visually driven and not verbally driven, um, I want the best tools possible within my means, right, and within the- the logistical s- ability of the project. Because we have to go so small, right, I can't- I can't afford nor can I bring a huge $100,000 lens.

    12. LFLex Fridman1:15:00

        So if I gave you a trillion dollars-

    13. SFSkye Fitzgerald1:15:02

        A trillion dollars?

    14. LFLex Fridman1:15:03

        Yeah.

    15. SFSkye Fitzgerald1:15:04

        Wow!

    16. LFLex Fridman1:15:05

        Unlimited.

    17. SFSkye Fitzgerald1:15:06

        Yeah.

    18. LFLex Fridman1:15:06

        There's still huge constraints that have nothing to do with money-

    19. SFSkye Fitzgerald1:15:09

        Yeah.

    20. LFLex Fridman1:15:09

        ... like you just said.

    21. SFSkye Fitzgerald1:15:10

        Yeah.

    22. LFLex Fridman1:15:11

        So what- what cameras would you use?

    23. SFSkye Fitzgerald1:15:13

        You know what I'd do with a trillion dollars? (laughs)

    24. LFLex Fridman1:15:16

        No, you're not allowed.

    25. SFSkye Fitzgerald1:15:16

        (laughs) I could do a lot with a trillion dollars, yeah.

    26. LFLex Fridman1:15:17

        You're not allowed. You're only allowed to fund the film and no corrupt stuff where you're like-

    27. SFSkye Fitzgerald1:15:22

        (laughs)

    28. LFLex Fridman1:15:22

        ... use the film to actually help children. No, you're not allowed to do any of that. (laughs)

    29. SFSkye Fitzgerald1:15:26

        What I would do with a trillion is I wouldn't invest in equipment, well, I guess I would invest in equipment. I would- I would increase capacity to do more films-

    30. LFLex Fridman1:15:33

        I see.
11. 1:18:18 – 1:24:47

    Editing

    1. SFSkye Fitzgerald1:18:18

       my face? (laughs)

    2. LFLex Fridman1:18:19

       How much of the work is done in the edit? That's another question I'm curious about.

    3. SFSkye Fitzgerald1:18:24

       Yeah.

    4. LFLex Fridman1:18:24

       And how much do you, uh, sort of anticipate that? Like when you're actually shooting, are you thinking of the final s- story as it appears on screen? Or are you just collecting as a human, collecting little bits of story here and there and in the edit is where most of the storytelling happens?

    5. SFSkye Fitzgerald1:18:46

       I've developed this sort of mental paradigm for myself over the years, um, that speaks to that, and- and I call it the three creations, right? And so, when I'm doing a film, the first creation for me is, you know, my preconception or visualization of what the film is going to be before I shoot it, right? So I have this- this entire vision of- of what a film's gonna be. Um, and- and sometimes it can be pretty specific, like I'll- I'll- I'll think through the scenes, if I, if I know the locations and everything, and I'll have this idea of what I'm gonna create, right? And then I'm there filming, right, and always without fail-... reality is something altogether different than what I thought it would be, right?

    6. LFLex Fridman1:19:33

       But it's still good to have the original idea.

    7. SFSkye Fitzgerald1:19:35

       Yeah, yeah. But if I tried to hold to that original vision, right, and to create a film out of that idea, they'd be crap. All the films, they'd be cr- so we... I have to adapt, I have to evolve my approach and then embrace what is actually occurring with the people who are actually doing it, and then re-envision. So that re-envisioning is very active during the entire filming process. And so, that's the second creation, that's the, the r- the rethinking and revisualizing based on what we're actually experiencing and seeing, what this film is going to be. And then I finish filming, right, and we're, we bring the hard drives back and we plug in the hard drives, um, in the edit bay. And oftentimes, you know, because it's two of us filming most of the time, I haven't seen all the footage. 'Cause in the field, it's all about just filming, right?

    8. LFLex Fridman1:20:26

       Mm-hmm.

    9. SFSkye Fitzgerald1:20:27

       And then just transferring the footage and getting on safely, you know, clone to multiple drives. I don't have a chance to review everything. I can't do rushes like you do on a large feature. So, because I'm filming half of it, I know what I've filmed, right?

    10. LFLex Fridman1:20:40

        Mm-hmm.

    11. SFSkye Fitzgerald1:20:40

        But I haven't seen everything the director of photography has filmed, right? So the next stage for me is reviewing every single frame of what's been filmed, and that's where discovery happens the third time, right, or second time rather is, is, "Wow, now I thought we'd filmed this, but actually, um, there's this over here." And then I have to open up this second vision and turn it in and transform it into a third vision for the film based on what's actually on the hard drive.

    12. LFLex Fridman1:21:13

        So, so you're... Is this like a daily process?

    13. SFSkye Fitzgerald1:21:15

        So what I do, the fru- my process is that once, i- if it's a really difficult project, I'll take a break before I go through this.

    14. LFLex Fridman1:21:23

        Yeah.

    15. SFSkye Fitzgerald1:21:23

        Just, just for healing, you know, and, and some space away, and fresh eyes, and usually that's about a month. And then once I reengage, I reengage whole hog. I reengage fully and, and it, and I review every single frame. And as I do that, I create a spreadsheet, um, and for Hunger War, that spreadsheet was, I don't know, 1,500 lines long or something-

    16. LFLex Fridman1:21:45

        Mm-hmm.

    17. SFSkye Fitzgerald1:21:45

        ... where it's basically log notes. And I, and I watch every scene and I take notes and I, I know really what we have. And once I've gone through that process that takes about a month and I n- really know what we came back with, I create an outline for the film from that. And that's the third visioning, right? Um, that's usually completely different than my original vision for the film to some extent, right? But I have to stay open to that entire process, um, or, or I'd be trying to create something that I can't really create. So I think of... Tho- that's, those are the three creations for me.

    18. LFLex Fridman1:22:22

        That's so cool to, to know what we have, um, just to lay it all out and to load it in into your mind.

    19. SFSkye Fitzgerald1:22:31

        Yeah.

    20. LFLex Fridman1:22:31

        'Cause like this is the capture of reality we have. It's a very kinda scientific process too, 'cause, um, you know, in science you collect a bunch of data about a phenomena-

    21. SFSkye Fitzgerald1:22:41

        Yeah.

    22. LFLex Fridman1:22:42

        ... and now you have to, like, analyze that data, but now your phenomena is long gone. (laughs)

    23. SFSkye Fitzgerald1:22:46

        Yeah, yeah, right, right. Now you just have the data.

    24. LFLex Fridman1:22:47

        Just the data-

    25. SFSkye Fitzgerald1:22:48

        Yeah, yeah.

    26. LFLex Fridman1:22:48

        ... and you have to, uh, write a paper about it, like analyze the data, and it's a similar thing. It's-

    27. SFSkye Fitzgerald1:22:54

        It is.

    28. LFLex Fridman1:22:54

        You have to, like, load it all in, where's the story, how... How, how do you... that last probably profound piece of doing the editing, like in your mind, like what, uh, how to lay those things out?

    29. SFSkye Fitzgerald1:23:10

        Well, it's almost like the scientific process, right? I have a hypothesis-

    30. LFLex Fridman1:23:13

        Mm-hmm.
12. 1:24:47 – 1:37:46

    Filmmaking

    1. SFSkye Fitzgerald1:24:47

    2. LFLex Fridman1:24:47

       By way of advice, you know, to young filmmakers-

    3. SFSkye Fitzgerald1:24:51

       Mm-hmm.

    4. LFLex Fridman1:24:52

       ... how to film something that, um, i- is recognized by the world in some way.

    5. SFSkye Fitzgerald1:25:00

       I would say, you know, first off, learn your craft, right? Um, because I, I think craft is incredibly foundational, right? To creating a powerful story.

    6. LFLex Fridman1:25:14

       And sorry to interrupt, but when you say craft, do you mean just the raw technical, the director of photography, like, the filming aspect? Is it the storytelling? Is it the a- is it the whole thing?

    7. SFSkye Fitzgerald1:25:24

       I think craft is more than just knowing how to push record on a camera or what lens to use, right? That's part of it, right? But I, I think, um...... at least in non-fiction, you know, I'm, I'm a product, to some extent, of having to know how to do it all, right? H- having to teach myself how to do it all, 'cause I didn't go to film school, you know? Um, but I became so, um, enamored of telling stories through a camera.

    8. LFLex Fridman1:25:54

       What was the leap, by the way, from theater to storyteller?

    9. SFSkye Fitzgerald1:25:58

       Oh, I, I just ha- needed an extra class in grad school. I was in a MFA dr- directing class and I needed an extra class and I just sort of like talked my way into a television directing class-

    10. LFLex Fridman1:26:09

        Mm-hmm.

    11. SFSkye Fitzgerald1:26:09

        ... and fell in love with it.

    12. LFLex Fridman1:26:11

        And the actor became the director?

    13. SFSkye Fitzgerald1:26:14

        Yeah. Yeah.

    14. LFLex Fridman1:26:15

        (laughs)

    15. SFSkye Fitzgerald1:26:15

        Well, yeah. I mean, I wasn't an actor.

    16. LFLex Fridman1:26:18

        (laughs)

    17. SFSkye Fitzgerald1:26:18

        But, but I, I had to act and I had to know the craft of acting because I was in the theater, you know, to, to work with others.

    18. LFLex Fridman1:26:23

        Did, did you love it though? Did you love, did you love acting-

    19. SFSkye Fitzgerald1:26:26

        The theater?

    20. LFLex Fridman1:26:27

        ... yeah, theater?

    21. SFSkye Fitzgerald1:26:28

        The first, yeah. The fir- as an undergraduate, yeah. But then I learned pretty quickly that I was pretty bad at it, um, or at least not very good, um, and that my skills lay elsewhere, uh, in, in more sort of behind the scenes and shaping a story.

    22. LFLex Fridman1:26:42

        When you started, you know, taking a class but also telling stories as a director, did you quickly realize that you're pretty good at this? Or was it a grind?

    23. SFSkye Fitzgerald1:26:56

        That's a good question, Lex. Um, I think I definitely knew right away that it was more my wheelhouse, right? And, and I think part of that was because I, um, I, I grew up in sort of a world of imagination, um, and I think that active imagination as a child really lent itself well to the skillset that a director needs-

    24. LFLex Fridman1:27:22

        Mm-hmm.

    25. SFSkye Fitzgerald1:27:23

        ... right? Um, to shape story, to shape narrative, to shape performances. So I think it was a, a much more natural fit for me. Was I excellent at the beginning? Heck no. No. You know, I think few people are, but I learned.

    26. LFLex Fridman1:27:36

        What was the biggest struggle for you? Is it, so your imagination clearly was, uh, something that you worked on for a lifetime. So I, I'm sure that was pretty strong.

    27. SFSkye Fitzgerald1:27:46

        Books, came from books.

    28. LFLex Fridman1:27:48

        Books. But the actual conversion of the ima- you said shape the story. W- where was the skill most lacking in the shaping of the story initially?

    29. SFSkye Fitzgerald1:27:59

        Technical side.

    30. LFLex Fridman1:28:00

        Just technical side?

Episode duration: 2:29:07